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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-04-15

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Time Nick Message
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01:25 fluxionary seems the flowerpot issue only shows up when used in connection with another unknown mod
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08:21 runs hi
08:21 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> hi
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08:38 hn hey, someone knows why i chose glass wall instead of node? harder to place and looks worse with glass doors... o.O
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14:09 settl3r[m] hi, can structures in 2km altitude never be seen from the surface?
14:09 settl3r[m] (on a skyblock server, someone said as much)
14:10 settl3r[m] most skyblock servers restrict building, but one allowed unlimited building above +2000 altitude..
14:11 settl3r[m] ..they said, in such a height these structures would not even cast a shadow.
14:11 settl3r[m] I now wonder, if that is the case with default configuration.
14:12 settl3r[m] ..which would cause it to happen in every server which uses default mapgen.
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14:40 erle settl3r[m] something something light propagation unloaded blocks
14:45 settl3r[m] And another thing which i always wanted to know: how far away (horizontally) can one spot new structures, if arriving near them? i realized that there is a difference in the render distance, between first arrival and receding from a known structure..
14:46 settl3r[m] (i was on a server and tested the unlimited viewing range, and was surprised to be able to see several kilometers back to structures which i visited before, but couldn't see new structures as far away as these)
14:47 settl3r[m] (..not only new structures, but i was unable to see new tiles further away than ~200-300 blocks or so)
14:47 settl3r[m] So the question is really about render distance of nodes, not about structures.
14:48 settl3r[m] Does it vary from server to server? But what is the default value?
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14:55 MTDiscord <MisterE> ping erle
14:55 erle pong MisterE
14:55 erle peng
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14:56 erle MisterE[m] new GNOME apps have hamburger buttons. sometimes even several of them, with several abstract icons. they used to have the windows-style menu bar. now there are a few things about usability:
14:56 erle first, if you have more than one hamburger button it is not exactly clear which hamburger button menu contains which
14:56 MTDiscord <MisterE> thats true
14:56 erle second, i have rarely seen a labeled hamburger button.
14:56 erle but that is not why i think this is how to spot bad designers
14:56 erle the simple reason is:
14:57 MTDiscord <MisterE> a hamburger button almost always means settings or context-specific menu
14:57 erle to make a traditional windows-style menu bar you need to prioritize information in hierarchies, think about what belongs where
14:57 erle to make a ribbon interface you need to do this too btw
14:57 erle but for a hamburger button you have no need to do that, beyond ordering of options
14:57 erle so bad designers almost always opt for the hamburger button as “everything else”
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14:58 erle leading to long lists with no proper hierarchy
14:58 MTDiscord <MisterE> so, once again, thats fine for very simple andorid-level apps
14:58 MTDiscord <MisterE> for complicated apps, its not fine
14:58 erle yeah, i know where the button comes from
14:58 MTDiscord <MisterE> its fine for simple websites
14:58 MTDiscord <MisterE> and webapps
14:58 erle it is not fine for simple websites
14:59 erle if the website is simple enough then it should show all the options
14:59 erle hamburger buttons inhibit discoverability
14:59 MTDiscord <MisterE> it saves space on small screens
14:59 MTDiscord <MisterE> and often, the hamburger is only displayed on small screens
14:59 erle i have heard this argument ONLY from people who have never used software on small screens for an extended time
14:59 MTDiscord <MisterE> I have a phone...
15:00 MTDiscord <MisterE> and use it
15:00 erle let's take an example
15:00 erle give me a few minutes to look one up
15:00 MTDiscord <MisterE> its not great for usability, but it works, and its better than a crowded ui on a small screen
15:02 erle https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/mineclone2/ shows all these things at the top on my laptop. but as soon as i make the window half sized (tiling window manager) it shows a lot of white space and a single hamburger button
15:02 erle even though there is more than enough space for the information
15:03 MTDiscord <MisterE> I still like the hamburger 🙂
15:03 erle yeah, but you would have to concede that just making the less wide design show all stuff immediately would be better for usability and discoverability, right?
15:03 MTDiscord <MisterE> I agree, there could be a better cut-off size value there
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15:03 erle it's not about the cut-off value
15:04 MTDiscord <MisterE> for discoverablility yes, for usability, not so much
15:04 erle it's about that you have a list of 8 things. that is NEVER too much for the screen.
15:05 erle mods | games | texture packs | random | help | threads | search | sign in
15:05 MTDiscord <MisterE> well, I guess, its more usable that way
15:05 erle there are probably dozens of ways to arrange these on a small screen
15:05 erle without taking up too much space
15:06 erle but the website uses bootstrap
15:06 erle because that works out of the box
15:06 erle not because of its superiour usability
15:06 erle like, no one uses bootstrap because it is OMG SO USABLE
15:07 erle devs use it because it easy to set up and they do not know better or do not want to put in the effort or do not have time
15:07 erle it saves dev time at the expense of good interface design
15:07 erle so there is a good argument for using bootstrap here, depending on circumstances
15:07 erle after all, dev time is limited
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15:07 erle however, MisterE what you are arguing for if you argue *for* flat design is to put work in to make a LESS usable design. which only satisfies your aesthetic concerns.
15:08 erle aesthetic concerns must always be subordinate to moral concerns
15:08 MTDiscord <MisterE> asthetic concerns are very very mportant in a game
15:08 MTDiscord <MisterE> ... moral concerns?
15:08 erle i agree
15:08 MTDiscord <MisterE> how is this moral?
15:09 erle usability is a moral concern. not everyone is as smart or as invested as the devs. i have wasted countless hours of my life on bad interfaces or software with bad defaults and i consider myself an expert user.
15:09 erle games are for fun
15:09 erle so the interface must not be unfun
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15:10 erle i think one of the best ways to figure this out is to get someone a bit drunk who has never seen your inferace and let them interact with it
15:10 erle i think that's actually a service someone sells lol
15:10 erle DUT (drunk user testing)
15:10 MTDiscord <MisterE> there is a balence between asthetic and usability that must be sought. Simple UIs can lean more towards asthetic than usability, becase very little time must be spent to figure them out
15:10 erle you figure out if your cues suck very fast that way
15:11 erle you are making a false dilemma here
15:11 erle there is no need to strike a balance
15:11 erle interfaces can be well-designed, look good, and be usable
15:11 erle in fact, all the best interfaces are like this
15:11 MTDiscord <MisterE> one great way to make image buttons clearly buttons is the hover_image
15:12 erle https://theuserisdrunk.com/
15:12 MTDiscord <MisterE> if they have a glow around them when hovered for example
15:12 erle that is one of the worst ways to do it if there is no other cue
15:12 erle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_meat_navigation
15:12 erle > Mystery meat navigation (also known as MMN) is a form of web navigation user interface whereby the target of each link is not visible until the user points their cursor at it. Such interfaces lack a user-centered design, emphasizing aesthetic appearance, white space, and the concealment of relevant information over basic practicality and functionality.
15:13 erle MisterE the thing is, making usable interfaces that look good is hard. making interfaces that look good is super-easy. making usable interfaces is not easy. but both together is super hard.
15:13 erle and simply because you obviously (from your arguments) think it is impossible you are not able to do it. yet. you can learn that!
15:14 erle as long as you think it is a tradeoff between looking good and usability, as long as you think in this false dilemma, you have not learned enough about UX.
15:14 erle there is a reason companies pay money for people who do nothing else than UX actually
15:14 erle for example, hovering does not exist on many platforms
15:14 erle how do you hover on an android? how do i hover without a mouse?
15:15 erle i have a bunch of non-android linux computers that do not have a mouse or a touchpad, but only a touchscreen as a pointing device. how to hover?
15:15 erle this is extremely important for web pages btw
15:16 MTDiscord <MisterE> for android, like i said, its not a big deal because the ui is so simple, and theres no danger of actually doing anything bad while clicking around
15:17 erle look, i hope it does not appear disrespectful, but you should really read up on some bad UX. the nielsen group has a lot of material about it.
15:17 erle there are a lot of counter-intuitive results
15:18 erle like that (plan9?) study where users reported that tasks using a mouse took them longer than using a keyboard. but it turned out that it was probably the cognitive load that distorts time perception.
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15:18 erle so the devs had users that were constantly complaining about a task taking longer using the GUI even though it was objectively false
15:19 erle no one expected that result obviously
15:19 MTDiscord <MisterE> anyhow, the (certianly obvious) grey or single-color default formspec buttons look horrible. Also, Id much rather use I3 for an inventory than the unified inv
15:19 erle regarding formspecs, what do you think of the mcl way?
15:19 MTDiscord <MisterE> not sure... havent played mineclone much, Ill go check it out
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15:20 erle MisterE start any mineclone, press escape and see if you like the buttons in the menu more.
15:20 erle they definitely have the right cues
15:20 erle or so i remember it, i have to check lol
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15:22 MTDiscord <MisterE> so, it works... its flat, but slightly raised. Its a fairly bare theme tho
15:23 MTDiscord <MisterE> its not ugly
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15:29 erle MisterE https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#content-structure-separation
15:29 erle >  Guideline 1.3 Adaptable: Create content that can be presented in different ways (for example simpler layout) without losing information or structure.
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15:48 erle MisterE[m] have you ever heard of dieter rams?
15:48 MTDiscord <MisterE> no
15:49 erle MisterE[m] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams
15:49 erle check out his work. his industrial design has a HUGE legacy.
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15:50 erle maybe you never saw this calculator, but you may know the apple calculator app https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dieter_Rams_i_Dieter_Lubs-_Calculator_Braun_ET66-1987.dhub.jpg
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16:55 MinetestBot [git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: upright_sprite: Fix walk animation in first person (#12194) 1d07a36 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1d07a365528e3b947a03baba9ef986af2ecd23d1 (2022-04-15T16:55:08Z)
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18:08 erle how can i give an item together with metadata?
18:11 Krock ItemStack():get_meta() ?
18:11 Krock pass by userdata reference
18:16 erle Krock no, i mean how can i /give an item together with metadata
18:17 Krock erle: do the opposite first: create an itemstack and use to_string or whatsoever
18:17 Krock it'll contain the metadata
18:18 Krock there will be a few control characters though. I don't think that /give would convert the \uxxxx notation
18:21 erle Krock so i can do it in vanilla?
18:21 Krock erle: if you can copy&paste control characters to your clipboard and back, yes.
18:21 erle uh why control characters though
18:22 erle is this the item stack injection thing all over again?
18:22 Krock because metadata key/values are separated by control characters internally
18:22 erle oh yeah it is
18:22 erle well i guess i have to code up my own command for adding items with metadata
18:22 erle unless you have a bettar idea
18:22 Krock how about... don't use command line for this stuff?
18:23 Krock create a GUI to dump and write metadata
18:28 erle Krock forget about it, i'm doing debugging here
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19:52 MTDiscord <luatic> erle: you can also preprocess all chat messages to convert escape sequences into the respective control seqs
19:52 MTDiscord <luatic> or $...$ to execute Lua, IDK
19:54 erle no no no
19:54 erle luatic i want to set or get an items meta for research purposes
19:54 erle i.e. debugging
19:54 Desour or use a mod with a /lua chatcommand, like worldedit (would not suggest on public server though)
19:54 erle is there a mod that makes it easy? if not i have to make some chatcommand
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20:05 luk3yx <Plug for https://content.minetest.net/packages/luk3yx/snippets/>
20:08 * Desour finds it sad that many new mods are uploaded to cdb, but not announced on the forums.
20:08 Desour btw. is there a feed or similar to get notified for new mods, subgames and co. in cdb?
20:08 MTDiscord <Jonathon> why? the forums is broken/slow half the time which has contributed to less use of it
20:09 Desour where is it broken?
20:09 MTDiscord <Jonathon> when it gives you 50* errors (granted this has been mostly fixed)
20:09 Desour also, it wasn't very slow anymore the last few weeks
20:10 MTDiscord <Jonathon> anyways, the front page has  recently added/updated
20:11 MTDiscord <Jonathon> of which you can click see more to get a listing
20:12 Desour oh, I haven't seen (or used) the more button before. I thought that would only be the recently added ones, not all sorted by creation time
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20:23 MTDiscord <Jonathon> also, seems like no one has touched topic move requests in the forums in like a year+, but turn around time in contentdb (assuming you dont have issues) is 1-2 days max
20:31 wsor ^this isnt that bad when you consider the oldest pr is about 4 years old
20:32 wsor april 1, 2018 or so github says
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22:37 mazes_80 is there a ddos on ctf.rubenwardy.com
22:37 mazes_80 t?
22:41 mazes_80 the host is up, port seems active, server should be but any attempt to connect just times out ( not only for me)
22:41 sfan5 which port do you expect the server on
22:41 mazes_80 30001
22:42 sfan5 !up ctf.rubenwardy.com 30001
22:42 MinetestBot ctf.rubenwardy.com:30001 is up (6ms) (IPv4)
22:42 sfan5 MinetestBot only test the low-level protocol of Minetest but there does look to be a server on that port
22:42 mazes_80 every body just timed out so I guess or server crashed, or there is some weird things happening
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22:43 mazes_80 as server should restart after crash, I think about second thing
22:43 sfan5 maybe it froze
22:44 mazes_80 ok people seems to be able to connect back
22:44 mazes_80 sorry to disturb this channel, but #minetest-ctf is private now
22:46 Facedancer Hi - I'm playing with Dreambuilder in 5.5.0, and something weird is happening that doesn't occur ion "Minetest Game", so I'm guessing there's either a mod or a setting causing it. Why do materials not immediately go into my inventory when mined/harvested, and instead end up as nodes in the game world?
22:47 sfan5 that's called item_drop
22:47 sfan5 or one mod that does this is, at least
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22:49 lsab hello. How can I use or undo the bundle in currency mod? Someone can help me?
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22:55 Facedancer Huh, I'm not seeing that included in the game, or in the settings.
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22:58 runs hi
22:59 mazes_80 hi runs
23:00 mazes_80 another remark about petz here: cows poops are floating in air, may need to place them 1 block under or even check blocks under
23:01 runs hi
23:01 mazes_80 hope to help a bit
23:01 runs ok
23:01 runs i will check
23:10 lsab How can I use or undo the bundle in currency mod?
23:13 mazes_80 I really guess script kiddy is flodding ctf
23:13 mazes_80 flooding*
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