Time Nick Message 01:25 fluxionary seems the flowerpot issue only shows up when used in connection with another unknown mod 08:21 runs hi 08:21 MTDiscord hi 08:38 hn hey, someone knows why i chose glass wall instead of node? harder to place and looks worse with glass doors... o.O 14:09 settl3r[m] hi, can structures in 2km altitude never be seen from the surface? 14:09 settl3r[m] (on a skyblock server, someone said as much) 14:10 settl3r[m] most skyblock servers restrict building, but one allowed unlimited building above +2000 altitude.. 14:11 settl3r[m] ..they said, in such a height these structures would not even cast a shadow. 14:11 settl3r[m] I now wonder, if that is the case with default configuration. 14:12 settl3r[m] ..which would cause it to happen in every server which uses default mapgen. 14:40 erle settl3r[m] something something light propagation unloaded blocks 14:45 settl3r[m] And another thing which i always wanted to know: how far away (horizontally) can one spot new structures, if arriving near them? i realized that there is a difference in the render distance, between first arrival and receding from a known structure.. 14:46 settl3r[m] (i was on a server and tested the unlimited viewing range, and was surprised to be able to see several kilometers back to structures which i visited before, but couldn't see new structures as far away as these) 14:47 settl3r[m] (..not only new structures, but i was unable to see new tiles further away than ~200-300 blocks or so) 14:47 settl3r[m] So the question is really about render distance of nodes, not about structures. 14:48 settl3r[m] Does it vary from server to server? But what is the default value? 14:55 MTDiscord ping erle 14:55 erle pong MisterE 14:55 erle peng 14:56 erle MisterE[m] new GNOME apps have hamburger buttons. sometimes even several of them, with several abstract icons. they used to have the windows-style menu bar. now there are a few things about usability: 14:56 erle first, if you have more than one hamburger button it is not exactly clear which hamburger button menu contains which 14:56 MTDiscord thats true 14:56 erle second, i have rarely seen a labeled hamburger button. 14:56 erle but that is not why i think this is how to spot bad designers 14:56 erle the simple reason is: 14:57 MTDiscord a hamburger button almost always means settings or context-specific menu 14:57 erle to make a traditional windows-style menu bar you need to prioritize information in hierarchies, think about what belongs where 14:57 erle to make a ribbon interface you need to do this too btw 14:57 erle but for a hamburger button you have no need to do that, beyond ordering of options 14:57 erle so bad designers almost always opt for the hamburger button as “everything else” 14:58 erle leading to long lists with no proper hierarchy 14:58 MTDiscord so, once again, thats fine for very simple andorid-level apps 14:58 MTDiscord for complicated apps, its not fine 14:58 erle yeah, i know where the button comes from 14:58 MTDiscord its fine for simple websites 14:58 MTDiscord and webapps 14:58 erle it is not fine for simple websites 14:59 erle if the website is simple enough then it should show all the options 14:59 erle hamburger buttons inhibit discoverability 14:59 MTDiscord it saves space on small screens 14:59 MTDiscord and often, the hamburger is only displayed on small screens 14:59 erle i have heard this argument ONLY from people who have never used software on small screens for an extended time 14:59 MTDiscord I have a phone... 15:00 MTDiscord and use it 15:00 erle let's take an example 15:00 erle give me a few minutes to look one up 15:00 MTDiscord its not great for usability, but it works, and its better than a crowded ui on a small screen 15:02 erle https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/mineclone2/ shows all these things at the top on my laptop. but as soon as i make the window half sized (tiling window manager) it shows a lot of white space and a single hamburger button 15:02 erle even though there is more than enough space for the information 15:03 MTDiscord I still like the hamburger ? 15:03 erle yeah, but you would have to concede that just making the less wide design show all stuff immediately would be better for usability and discoverability, right? 15:03 MTDiscord I agree, there could be a better cut-off size value there 15:03 erle it's not about the cut-off value 15:04 MTDiscord for discoverablility yes, for usability, not so much 15:04 erle it's about that you have a list of 8 things. that is NEVER too much for the screen. 15:05 erle mods | games | texture packs | random | help | threads | search | sign in 15:05 MTDiscord well, I guess, its more usable that way 15:05 erle there are probably dozens of ways to arrange these on a small screen 15:05 erle without taking up too much space 15:06 erle but the website uses bootstrap 15:06 erle because that works out of the box 15:06 erle not because of its superiour usability 15:06 erle like, no one uses bootstrap because it is OMG SO USABLE 15:07 erle devs use it because it easy to set up and they do not know better or do not want to put in the effort or do not have time 15:07 erle it saves dev time at the expense of good interface design 15:07 erle so there is a good argument for using bootstrap here, depending on circumstances 15:07 erle after all, dev time is limited 15:07 erle however, MisterE what you are arguing for if you argue *for* flat design is to put work in to make a LESS usable design. which only satisfies your aesthetic concerns. 15:08 erle aesthetic concerns must always be subordinate to moral concerns 15:08 MTDiscord asthetic concerns are very very mportant in a game 15:08 MTDiscord ... moral concerns? 15:08 erle i agree 15:08 MTDiscord how is this moral? 15:09 erle usability is a moral concern. not everyone is as smart or as invested as the devs. i have wasted countless hours of my life on bad interfaces or software with bad defaults and i consider myself an expert user. 15:09 erle games are for fun 15:09 erle so the interface must not be unfun 15:10 erle i think one of the best ways to figure this out is to get someone a bit drunk who has never seen your inferace and let them interact with it 15:10 erle i think that's actually a service someone sells lol 15:10 erle DUT (drunk user testing) 15:10 MTDiscord there is a balence between asthetic and usability that must be sought. Simple UIs can lean more towards asthetic than usability, becase very little time must be spent to figure them out 15:10 erle you figure out if your cues suck very fast that way 15:11 erle you are making a false dilemma here 15:11 erle there is no need to strike a balance 15:11 erle interfaces can be well-designed, look good, and be usable 15:11 erle in fact, all the best interfaces are like this 15:11 MTDiscord one great way to make image buttons clearly buttons is the hover_image 15:12 erle https://theuserisdrunk.com/ 15:12 MTDiscord if they have a glow around them when hovered for example 15:12 erle that is one of the worst ways to do it if there is no other cue 15:12 erle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_meat_navigation 15:12 erle > Mystery meat navigation (also known as MMN) is a form of web navigation user interface whereby the target of each link is not visible until the user points their cursor at it. Such interfaces lack a user-centered design, emphasizing aesthetic appearance, white space, and the concealment of relevant information over basic practicality and functionality. 15:13 erle MisterE the thing is, making usable interfaces that look good is hard. making interfaces that look good is super-easy. making usable interfaces is not easy. but both together is super hard. 15:13 erle and simply because you obviously (from your arguments) think it is impossible you are not able to do it. yet. you can learn that! 15:14 erle as long as you think it is a tradeoff between looking good and usability, as long as you think in this false dilemma, you have not learned enough about UX. 15:14 erle there is a reason companies pay money for people who do nothing else than UX actually 15:14 erle for example, hovering does not exist on many platforms 15:14 erle how do you hover on an android? how do i hover without a mouse? 15:15 erle i have a bunch of non-android linux computers that do not have a mouse or a touchpad, but only a touchscreen as a pointing device. how to hover? 15:15 erle this is extremely important for web pages btw 15:16 MTDiscord for android, like i said, its not a big deal because the ui is so simple, and theres no danger of actually doing anything bad while clicking around 15:17 erle look, i hope it does not appear disrespectful, but you should really read up on some bad UX. the nielsen group has a lot of material about it. 15:17 erle there are a lot of counter-intuitive results 15:18 erle like that (plan9?) study where users reported that tasks using a mouse took them longer than using a keyboard. but it turned out that it was probably the cognitive load that distorts time perception. 15:18 erle so the devs had users that were constantly complaining about a task taking longer using the GUI even though it was objectively false 15:19 erle no one expected that result obviously 15:19 MTDiscord anyhow, the (certianly obvious) grey or single-color default formspec buttons look horrible. Also, Id much rather use I3 for an inventory than the unified inv 15:19 erle regarding formspecs, what do you think of the mcl way? 15:19 MTDiscord not sure... havent played mineclone much, Ill go check it out 15:20 erle MisterE start any mineclone, press escape and see if you like the buttons in the menu more. 15:20 erle they definitely have the right cues 15:20 erle or so i remember it, i have to check lol 15:22 MTDiscord so, it works... its flat, but slightly raised. Its a fairly bare theme tho 15:23 MTDiscord its not ugly 15:29 erle MisterE https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#content-structure-separation 15:29 erle > Guideline 1.3 Adaptable: Create content that can be presented in different ways (for example simpler layout) without losing information or structure. 15:48 erle MisterE[m] have you ever heard of dieter rams? 15:48 MTDiscord no 15:49 erle MisterE[m] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieter_Rams 15:49 erle check out his work. his industrial design has a HUGE legacy. 15:50 erle maybe you never saw this calculator, but you may know the apple calculator app https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dieter_Rams_i_Dieter_Lubs-_Calculator_Braun_ET66-1987.dhub.jpg 16:55 MinetestBot 02[git] 04SmallJoker -> 03minetest/minetest: upright_sprite: Fix walk animation in first person (#12194) 131d07a36 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/1d07a365528e3b947a03baba9ef986af2ecd23d1 (152022-04-15T16:55:08Z) 18:08 erle how can i give an item together with metadata? 18:11 Krock ItemStack():get_meta() ? 18:11 Krock pass by userdata reference 18:16 erle Krock no, i mean how can i /give an item together with metadata 18:17 Krock erle: do the opposite first: create an itemstack and use to_string or whatsoever 18:17 Krock it'll contain the metadata 18:18 Krock there will be a few control characters though. I don't think that /give would convert the \uxxxx notation 18:21 erle Krock so i can do it in vanilla? 18:21 Krock erle: if you can copy&paste control characters to your clipboard and back, yes. 18:21 erle uh why control characters though 18:22 erle is this the item stack injection thing all over again? 18:22 Krock because metadata key/values are separated by control characters internally 18:22 erle oh yeah it is 18:22 erle well i guess i have to code up my own command for adding items with metadata 18:22 erle unless you have a bettar idea 18:22 Krock how about... don't use command line for this stuff? 18:23 Krock create a GUI to dump and write metadata 18:28 erle Krock forget about it, i'm doing debugging here 19:52 MTDiscord erle: you can also preprocess all chat messages to convert escape sequences into the respective control seqs 19:52 MTDiscord or $...$ to execute Lua, IDK 19:54 erle no no no 19:54 erle luatic i want to set or get an items meta for research purposes 19:54 erle i.e. debugging 19:54 Desour or use a mod with a /lua chatcommand, like worldedit (would not suggest on public server though) 19:54 erle is there a mod that makes it easy? if not i have to make some chatcommand 20:05 luk3yx 20:08 * Desour finds it sad that many new mods are uploaded to cdb, but not announced on the forums. 20:08 Desour btw. is there a feed or similar to get notified for new mods, subgames and co. in cdb? 20:08 MTDiscord why? the forums is broken/slow half the time which has contributed to less use of it 20:09 Desour where is it broken? 20:09 MTDiscord when it gives you 50* errors (granted this has been mostly fixed) 20:09 Desour also, it wasn't very slow anymore the last few weeks 20:10 MTDiscord anyways, the front page has recently added/updated 20:11 MTDiscord of which you can click see more to get a listing 20:12 Desour oh, I haven't seen (or used) the more button before. I thought that would only be the recently added ones, not all sorted by creation time 20:23 MTDiscord also, seems like no one has touched topic move requests in the forums in like a year+, but turn around time in contentdb (assuming you dont have issues) is 1-2 days max 20:31 wsor ^this isnt that bad when you consider the oldest pr is about 4 years old 20:32 wsor april 1, 2018 or so github says 22:37 mazes_80 is there a ddos on ctf.rubenwardy.com 22:37 mazes_80 t? 22:41 mazes_80 the host is up, port seems active, server should be but any attempt to connect just times out ( not only for me) 22:41 sfan5 which port do you expect the server on 22:41 mazes_80 30001 22:42 sfan5 !up ctf.rubenwardy.com 30001 22:42 MinetestBot ctf.rubenwardy.com:30001 is up (6ms) (IPv4) 22:42 sfan5 MinetestBot only test the low-level protocol of Minetest but there does look to be a server on that port 22:42 mazes_80 every body just timed out so I guess or server crashed, or there is some weird things happening 22:43 mazes_80 as server should restart after crash, I think about second thing 22:43 sfan5 maybe it froze 22:44 mazes_80 ok people seems to be able to connect back 22:44 mazes_80 sorry to disturb this channel, but #minetest-ctf is private now 22:46 Facedancer Hi - I'm playing with Dreambuilder in 5.5.0, and something weird is happening that doesn't occur ion "Minetest Game", so I'm guessing there's either a mod or a setting causing it. Why do materials not immediately go into my inventory when mined/harvested, and instead end up as nodes in the game world? 22:47 sfan5 that's called item_drop 22:47 sfan5 or one mod that does this is, at least 22:49 lsab hello. How can I use or undo the bundle in currency mod? Someone can help me? 22:55 Facedancer Huh, I'm not seeing that included in the game, or in the settings. 22:58 runs hi 22:59 mazes_80 hi runs 23:00 mazes_80 another remark about petz here: cows poops are floating in air, may need to place them 1 block under or even check blocks under 23:01 runs hi 23:01 mazes_80 hope to help a bit 23:01 runs ok 23:01 runs i will check 23:10 lsab How can I use or undo the bundle in currency mod? 23:13 mazes_80 I really guess script kiddy is flodding ctf 23:13 mazes_80 flooding*