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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-04-06

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:02 Gustavo6046 please deposit your h's in ##h for safekeeping
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01:21 MTDiscord <MisterE> :wat:
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08:20 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> erle, here is my 2 cents on the "automation" topic: It of course depends on the type of gameplay the server provides but if you play on one where you gain EXP (like mine) for building, mining, killing mobs and more you absolutely DO NOT want any kind of automation you want your players to level up by putting manual effort into the game
08:22 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> Anything else would be an unfair advantage over others or in other words cheating
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08:30 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> I already implemented anti-cheat mechanics that at least try to prevent the most basic macros from working (e.g. not counting if the player just repeatedly places/digs nodes at the same position)
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12:34 independent_ My server takes 30 seconds to start. It would be better if it listened for people requesting to join, held them at the waiting screen, and then began loading when the server is ready.
12:38 MTDiscord <luatic> It would be better if you optimized your startup times
12:38 MTDiscord <luatic> Figure out the responsible mods
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12:47 independent_ Mostly the ones which log a lot
12:47 independent_ Eh, dosen't really matter
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13:26 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> 30 seconds sounds unreal...mine takes 10 max to fully restart
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13:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm sure there are ways to make anything arbitrarily slow.  Could be a slow mod, could be an issue with equipment...
13:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I once accidentally registered some recipes in a way that like quadrupled the original startup time...
13:27 MTDiscord <IhrFussel> If it's related to logging my guess is HDD
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16:27 ludtwig Hey, for those who use minetest on wayland, how do you launch it? Since some weeks I can't, "X_CreateWindow" fails
16:30 ludtwig (for the record, from the arch repos it still works, git main fails)
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17:20 jason101 how can i nuke old world and create a new one? i dleeted the directory in /var/games/minetest/worlds/oldworld
17:21 jason101 restarting server made no difference, all of old world contents came back. running minetest on debian in server mode via systemd
17:22 sfan5 check the logs, the server says where the world that it uses is
17:23 sfan5 also just for clarity the order is: stop server, delete world, start server
17:27 jason101 did so.
17:27 jason101 everything came back after deleting the directory and recreating a new directory empty wit hthe same name as the world world.
17:29 erle try a new name and look where a new folder gets created
17:29 sfan5 what does the "ACTION[Main]: World at [...]" line say?
17:29 jason101 i should not be the one creating the world? I should let the server do that part?
17:31 jason101 oh, wow, no matter how i rename the world, it's finding the old one somehow
17:32 jason101 log shows every renamed world directory was loaded. wtf?
17:32 jason101 on every server restart and attempt. how is it still finding it?
17:32 sfan5 the worldname is stored inside world.mt in the world folder
17:33 jason101 every folder in worlds/ is queried for a world.mt file?
17:33 sfan5 probably
17:33 jason101 so how can i backup the old world and generate a fresh clean one for the boys?
17:33 lemonzest gah debian, was a headache getting it to run as a user sevrvice from ~/.minetest/worlds/
17:33 jason101 id like to import a map, but i guess there's a difference between worlds and maps.
17:34 sfan5 store it somewhere as a zip file
17:34 sfan5 or move it out of the way, e.g. into ~
17:34 sfan5 or edit world.mt to "really" rename it
17:34 sfan5 or extract the new world with a different name?
17:35 jason101 what do i edit in world.mt?
17:36 sfan5 look for the line that begins with world_name =
17:36 jason101 none.
17:36 jason101 there's no line
17:36 jason101 for that definition.
17:37 sfan5 hm
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17:38 jason101 honestly that was my last attempt that was a dead end, so i arrived here to ask for help.
17:38 * jason101 shrugs
17:39 jason101 is it possible or good practice or a practice at all to have multiple worlds stored in the worlds/ folder?
17:40 sfan5 absolutely
17:40 jason101 well, then i started to make something slopppy that's backfiring now. i can't create new worlds and keep old ones.
17:41 jason101 i was hoping to initate server from commandline pointing to the othe world folder
17:41 erle jason101 it is praxis to have a lot of worlds in the worlds folder. however, do not keep your backups there. i read a bug report where minetest deleted them on upgrade.
17:43 sfan5 you can tell minetestserver where to look but no idea how that'd work with the systemd unit (debian provides it)
17:43 sfan5 if nothing works try moving /var/games/minetest/worlds away entirely and see what happens?
17:45 rubenwardy I use a custom systemd unit pointing to a bash file
17:46 rubenwardy which has all the args and a custom error reporting system
17:46 sfan5 erle: I don't know if you can tell yourself, but telling vague scary stories to users is not helpful at all
17:46 erle sfan5 i will look for the bug report then
17:46 erle sfan5 sorry for being too vague
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17:48 erle sfan5 jason101 here is it. it is “unconfirmed”, so yes, this is a vague scary story. mea maxima culpa https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12069
17:49 sfan5 you'd have a point if this wasn't specific to Android
17:49 sfan5 (which it is)
17:50 erle oh, that wasn't at all clear to me when remembering it. i should just have looked it up before mentioning it.
17:50 erle regardless, backups do belong somewhere else, per another justification
17:50 erle it's not really a backup if it's the same storage
17:51 erle again, thank you for callilng me out on it, i should really have looked it up.
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18:24 hn just smol question - how it is with contentdb? if i want to create a full operating system as an addon (modifying files + network usage + etc etc. ) generally safe addon but needs perma-insecure env... :/ how it is ?
18:27 sfan5 not sure what you mean but mods that require extra permissions can be uploaded to CDB fine, users will just have to grant them to actually us it
18:27 sfan5 use*
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19:12 hn i heard they block adding such addon which are forcing insecure env..
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19:16 sfan5 hmm well maybe it's written down in the a policy, dunno
19:16 hn yea but im just asking if i'll get banned then
19:17 hn cause its not my first blocked addon
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19:19 rubenwardy Mods requiring insecure env is perfectly fine, there are several
19:19 rubenwardy But do expect a more in-depth review due to the security implications
19:23 hn they'd have moderation. detecting of roles etc.. (anyways - night at me - bye)
19:23 hn tmorrow at discord
19:28 Desour It would be interesting to have a tag on cdb for mods that require or can use the insec env.
19:28 rubenwardy yeah, that was planned at some point
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20:04 MTDiscord <luatic> Isn't there a "nontrivial installation" tag? That's 90% insecure envs / requires.
20:05 MTDiscord <luatic> Anways hn: Your mod can't possibly be fully secure, at least not for server use solely based on the fact that MITM always works. And that's ignoring all the flaws MT possibly has.
20:09 Desour oh, I had not seen the "Complex installation" flag
20:15 sfan5 rubenwardy: have you made CDB to automatically test-run mods in a sandbox yet?
20:16 rubenwardy no, I don't plan to
20:16 sfan5 >:(
20:16 rubenwardy requires a CDB CLI to start with
20:17 rubenwardy I'd rather not run untrusted code like that either, even in a sandbox and a container
20:17 rubenwardy it could run on a separate VPS and use the REST API
20:19 sfan5 thats being too paranoid, containers are fine
20:20 Desour 3 out of 8 mods on cdb with the "Complex installation" flag (by 2 modders) use the insecure env, and it's used insecurely in all of them...
20:21 rubenwardy yeah, adv_chat leaks the ie to the modlib table
20:22 Desour modlib or whatever else any mod has overridden it with *
20:22 rubenwardy exactly
20:23 rubenwardy irc leaks require
20:23 rubenwardy but that's a limitation in the engine
20:23 Desour character_anim does basically the same mistake
20:24 rubenwardy luatic: ^
20:24 Desour luatic == LMD?
20:25 rubenwardy yes
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20:27 Desour I really wonder/worry about security leaks in my require wrapper: https://github.com/Desour/dslib/blob/e8053f605d183493bd031629eb7ac7ae781e41c5/init.lua#L92
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20:29 rubenwardy perhaps there should be a `ie.require2` should set the ie on the module
20:29 rubenwardy *that sets
20:29 rubenwardy as a function env
20:29 rubenwardy would solve the need to assign require as a global
20:30 Desour that's also what my wrapper does
20:30 Desour an unmodified get_modpath in the insec env would be useful too, btw
20:31 sfan5 it would be much more useful to have an environment that is not impossible to secure
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20:59 MTDiscord <luatic> ^
20:59 MTDiscord <luatic> this
20:59 MTDiscord <luatic> Desour: I've basically given up on trying to make stuff fully secure
21:00 MTDiscord <luatic> Because technically, everything including the Lua stdlib could be overridden
21:00 MTDiscord <luatic> for a select few funcs (ie. request_insecure_env) it'll be detected and blocked
21:00 MTDiscord <luatic> but what about loadfile, for instance?
21:01 MTDiscord <luatic> the proper way to go IMO would be each mod obtaining it's own environment
21:01 MTDiscord <luatic> mod interoperability could either work through a shared environment or a require-reimplementation specific to MT
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21:03 Desour For loadfile, I am using IE.loadfile and checking a sha256sum before.
21:04 Desour IE.loadstring*
21:04 MTDiscord <luatic> Anyways Desour: My mods don't leak the insecure env
21:04 MTDiscord <luatic> At least not in the global variable kind of way
21:05 MTDiscord <luatic> I have to temporarily store them in a mod-scoped var due to my architecture (sometimes I also pass it around using loadfile and chunk args)
21:05 MTDiscord <luatic> But I always make sure to unset it afterwards, see https://github.com/appgurueu/character_anim/blob/master/importer.lua#L11 f.E.
21:05 MTDiscord <luatic> So it isn't that easily grabbed
21:06 MTDiscord <luatic> Although by overriding the right modlib callbacks, it would still be pretty easy
21:07 MTDiscord <luatic> This leaves me with a nice suggestion: Whenever you're free to topologically reorder a couple mods, always prioritize trusted mods
21:07 MTDiscord <luatic> This means untrusted mods have to run afterwards, unless they somehow get into the dependency chain of trusted mods
21:07 MTDiscord <luatic> At which point the trusted mods messed up
21:09 Desour Loading trusted mods and their depends first sounds like a sound thing to do.
21:09 sfan5 (still just bandaid)
21:10 MTDiscord <luatic> sfan5: but very decent bandaid
21:10 rubenwardy you could keep a lot of compatibility with a per-mod environment with some cleverness
21:10 MTDiscord <luatic> the environment can only have been tampered with by other trusted mods
21:10 rubenwardy like, using a metatable to capture assignments to _G[the_modname]
21:10 MTDiscord <luatic> rubenwardy: agreed, but I don't like the performance implications it probably has
21:10 rubenwardy to then expose in other mod's envs
21:11 MTDiscord <luatic> plus, what about rawset / rawget
21:11 rubenwardy and there's keeping support for overriding minetest.* funcs
21:11 rubenwardy I don't think exposing globals like that is security sensitive, it's a convenience feature
21:17 MTDiscord <luatic> I just realized I completely forgot to update Cellestial Game
21:18 MTDiscord <luatic> It didn't get all the shiny modlib updates
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