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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-04-05

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11:53 MTDiscord <MisterE> Erle
11:53 MTDiscord <MisterE> Nodecore particles alert you that you have discovered a craft
11:53 MTDiscord <MisterE> They are completely essential
11:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's not literally impossible to play without, but it's a significant handicap.
11:54 erle oh interesting
11:54 erle i did not know that
11:54 MTDiscord <MisterE> Please, be more careful when suggesting that yet another feature should be made entirely optional
11:55 MTDiscord <MisterE> Now, perhaps a particle veiw range wold be ok
11:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Players configuration should be on an informed consent basis. Don't add options unless game devs are able to inform and recommend.
11:56 erle i still believe that the better thing would be to actually optimize particle rendering
11:56 MTDiscord <MisterE> Which, hey, a particle view range could be set to 0, and thats ok
11:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I have considered a particle reduction setting that would just add a multiplier to the particle spawner amounts and a probability to lone particle spawns
11:57 MTDiscord <MisterE> Because the implicit assumption is that it shouldn't be 0
11:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yes making people not feel compelled to disable particles would be the clear win :-)
11:57 erle MisterE Warr1024 look at irrlicht's examples/08.SpecialFX/main.cpp – it can do dynamic shadows and spam particles on potato GPU. and at least the particle thing is relatively easy … with the exception that the particle system is *less powerful* than what minetest needs (the vertical thing i think)
11:57 MTDiscord <oneplustwo> It would be convenient for me specifically though, I'm tired of joining servers with a lot of useless particles and getting an unplayable experience
11:58 erle regardless i have heard stories of servers where people basically stopped plading in rain
11:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The point is to make experiences that have a lot of particles remain playable.
11:58 erle because of client lag
11:58 erle stopped playing
11:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If a server operator wants to give you a bad experience, we can't add settings to MT to disable that
11:58 MTDiscord <oneplustwo> Should still be an option imo, not everyone needs or wants particles
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11:59 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I already have rain particles effectively disabled in my client.
11:59 erle how
11:59 erle you also have a cheat client ig?
11:59 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I don't play in those servers.
11:59 erle show
11:59 erle pls
12:01 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You ... want me to show you how I don't play on those servers?  I don't have a special technique or anything for it.
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12:06 MTDiscord <oneplustwo> "joke"
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12:08 erle show me how you do not play senpai
12:09 MTDiscord <oneplustwo> has anyone definitively cracked the code on why mcl2 performance is so bad?
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12:10 independent56 My server refuses to start. Is the old data storage deprecated? https://pastebin.com/2hrBejVT
12:11 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> old mod storage backend shouldn't be the cause of the issue per se, I'd rather focus on the error... uh, in builtin vector??
12:13 erle <MTDiscord> <oneplustwo> has anyone definitively cracked the code on why mcl2 performance is so bad?
12:13 erle yes
12:13 erle cora has
12:13 erle there are multiple reasons
12:14 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> too many ABMs?
12:14 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> or something else
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12:15 erle i can tell you a few
12:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> With a project with that kind of scope, it may be more efficient to ask if there are any reasons they haven't hit.
12:19 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> erle: please do!
12:20 erle look, here are the things fixed in mineclonia: fire spread used timers (i.e. exponential memory consumption), ender chests where entities (and not nodes, thus spamming them would lag the game), player properties would be sent 30 times per second per player, burning animation was sent to client with 60hz, players could be on fire multiple time (thus sending a lot of traffic about burning animation, over 1MB/s), HUD flags were sent
12:20 erle even if they had not been changed
12:21 independent56 I do probably have too much ABMs
12:21 erle furthermore, cora fixed the following, but they are not in mineclonia (possible in mineclone2, i have not looked): nether dust simulating each particle separately instead of using particle spammers … and i guess a bunch more
12:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Some of those don't sound too bad, while others there are real slack jawed head scratchers.
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12:23 erle also mineclone2 0.71 had enchanted armor/tools have 20kb of metadata each or so which meant laaaaag
12:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Like how do you even consider sending an animation at 60hz over the network?
12:23 erle Warr1024 simple, some people LOVE globalsteps
12:23 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> oh man
12:23 erle i have withheld the names to protect the guilty but you can do git blame
12:23 erle :P
12:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I ain never seen a globalstep at 60hz tho
12:23 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> git blame never lies
12:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I love globalsteps too, but I usually use them to improve performance, not the other way around...
12:24 rubenwardy independent56: do you have a mod that's doing `vector = nil`
12:24 independent56 No idea
12:24 rubenwardy do you have any custom mods
12:24 erle i think some devs in mcl2 basically saw something vaguely related to a player and were like “yep let's do some work in a global step that's rarely relevant, but just to be sure let's do it very often”
12:24 independent56 Yes, like britsignals, but all are decoration for now
12:25 independent56 It might be portal rail, looking at world.mt
12:25 erle Warr1024 have you ever heard of “immediate mode GUI”? people who like to re-render everything in every frame because caching is just too hard? it's stuff like that that appeals to some type of programmers.
12:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I have like 30 registered playersteps in NodeCore, but I don't see anywhere near that kind of packet rate.
12:25 independent56 Apparently not :-/
12:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Immediate mode gui makes sense in some context but not over a network :-D
12:26 erle Warr1024 this one https://github.com/ocornut/imgui
12:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Might as well play MT over VNC using the raw encoding
12:26 independent56 The thing is, i haven't added any mods, just updated britsignals.
12:27 erle last time i checked, imgui was a collossal fraud. and i say fraud, because “fast” was a proven lie.
12:27 rubenwardy imgui is designed for making tools, it doesn't need to be the fastest
12:28 independent56 Note that this error happens before any logs from loading mods appear
12:28 erle rubenwardy it's the level of fraud where the framerate drops to less than 5fps as soon as you select a font that has a bit more than latin-1 coverage, which is abysmal for a GUI toolkit nowadays.
12:28 MTDiscord <Warr1024> There's no such thing as a fast or slow thing without an application or context.  Redrawing everything every frame does make sense if everything is changing, or could change and the cost of determining what's affected is more than the cost of just rendering it all.
12:29 rubenwardy independent56: the thing you fail to mention is britsignals is your mod
12:29 independent56 It is, sorry
12:29 independent56 But disabling it has no effect
12:29 erle Warr1024 yeah, the thing is, with 2d widgets it's almost always not very expensive to determine what needs to be re-rendered
12:29 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've made visuals that render everything every frame and run into the font rendering problem, and my solution has largely been just to prerender and memoize glyphs as a special case.  The approach itself is still sound.
12:30 erle memoizing surely works
12:30 independent56 Should i migrate my mod storage?
12:30 erle i have seen similar things with sdl and pygame. a coworker complained to me that pygame was slow. turned out he just did not know about dirty rectangles,
12:30 rubenwardy mod storage won't be causing that issue
12:30 independent56 I did accidently run git pull in the minetest directory whilst trying to updaye brtisignals
12:31 erle independent56 that may be an issue. you need builtin lua stuff to correspond to your minetest binary.
12:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> But there's an order of magnitude difference between repeatedly shipping the same data over your PCIe bus vs doing the same over the internet :-D
12:31 independent56 I'll recmopile then
12:31 erle independent56 do a git checkout so that the builtin lua is at the same version of your binary, then report back
12:31 independent56 better idea
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12:31 erle i think my approach is a bit better hehe
12:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If it were me I'd just update everything and recompile so they're both in sync AND both latest.
12:32 Oblomov btw weren't there a couple of issues open on the mt engine about sending unnecessary packets?
12:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Depends on how painful compiling is for ya
12:32 independent56 Quite simple. One command
12:32 independent56 And a few minutes
12:32 Oblomov oh lol and obviously they're from Warr1024 ;-) https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/9934
12:32 independent56 and a few more
12:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I opened a bug once about obj:set_properties, I think it got paramatted, so I've been relying on a NodeCore-layer workaround since.
12:33 erle if you set a property on an entity, you get network traffic
12:33 erle which is hilariously inefficient. easy workaround, memoize the function.
12:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Oh, wow, that one was never closed
12:33 erle Warr1024, are you memoizing this thing?
12:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I just use get_properties and do a comparison.
12:34 erle yeah that works
12:34 erle maybe we should do a general workaround library
12:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The whole "the server doesn't keep track of obj props" argument turned out to be laughable since get_properties exists and works fine.
12:34 erle for stuff that minetest either has never fixed or has fixed improperly
12:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha an "should have been PRs but 🤷" library :-D
12:35 erle not only that
12:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've done that elsewhere, and it's a hilarious way to make somebody else's job easier in an underhandedly hostile way.
12:36 independent56 Works now!
12:36 erle also stuff where lua workarounds are possible but rejected
12:37 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've probably got a lot I could pull out of NodeCore.
12:37 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also interesting is the ability to add forward-compat, which is something the engine's release cycle actually doesn't allow it to do.
12:37 Oblomov (lol @ parametted)
12:38 MTDiscord <Jonathon> or roadmapped
12:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> like, I made player:add_velocity work in pre-5.3 by just detecting that version and shunting the calls to player:add_player_velocity.
12:38 erle roadmatted
12:38 erle Warr1024 yes this is nice
12:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> heh, roadmatted is a fun umbrella term for all the various reasons something might get rejected or indefinitely deferred, which kind of dilutes the criticism of any one person :-)
12:39 erle i can offer my workaround for minetest_find_nodes_in_area()
12:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> oh, there's something there that needs to be worked around?
12:40 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I use that call a fair bit and have failed to notice anything significantly wrong with it.
12:40 erle calling it with coords outside interval (-32768, 32767) crashes minetest before 5.5
12:40 erle so i have lua code to clamp it to that interval
12:40 MTDiscord <Warr1024> ah, okay, luckily I don't think I've got any scenarios that would trigger that.
12:41 Oblomov erle: but that workaround will break when the INIFITE WORLD patchset get merged
12:41 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Clamping it would be good in a general-purpose library
12:41 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If they expand the absolute world limits then the workaround library would very likely respond very quickly to that.
12:42 MTDiscord <Warr1024> besides, when things like hash_node_position have to be reworked anyway, I think the engine/builtin would still have the hardest time of it.
12:42 erle Warr1024 https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia/src/branch/master/mods/MISC/mcl_engine_workarounds/init.lua
12:43 erle it is easy to distinguish between minetest versions though
12:43 erle in a library
12:43 erle and infinite world would probably be a thing for a feature table
12:43 MTDiscord <Warr1024> that "deep compare" function could use an option to account for float/double rounding so you can use it to compare set_properties to get_properties :-D
12:44 MTDiscord <Warr1024> My object:set_properties workaround has to accept that values coming from the engine might be slightly off, so I just have an arbitrary fudge factor in there.
12:44 erle look this is ghetto tier code
12:44 erle oh does your thing also deal with the funny case where the engine gives you values that explode lua once they are given to a function?
12:44 erle this can happen for positions
12:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've never seen the engine give me a pos that causes lua to do anything notably apeshit, no.
12:45 erle well, it's minetest that goes apeshit, via lua
12:46 erle well, there are a few positions (at least 6 i think) where you as a player can be and getting the player position will give you a value that will crash the game when you give it to a function that takes a player position
12:46 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean I don't keep a record of every crash I've ever seen, so if it's rare and hard to repro...
12:46 definitelya erle: Hood codin'.
12:47 Oblomov cooding
12:47 MTDiscord <Warr1024> "function that takes a player position" like trying to obj:set_pos() another entity to that position or something?
12:47 erle Warr1024 you will find 1 of those positions if you move outwards beyond the map boundaries (by means of .teleport in a hacked client for example, or just normally noclip fly) and do “get pos / set pos” in a globalstep or so every 10 seconds
12:47 erle yeah
12:47 erle it's pretty far out though
12:47 erle i bet i made a bug report about this let me check
12:47 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Oh, like, approaching or exceeding the 32k limit?
12:47 erle no, far more out
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12:48 definitelya You probably did lol.
12:48 erle it's an improper conversion
12:48 definitelya You made mso many.
12:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'dn't be surprised if those 32k limits are deeply assumed within the engine at various layers and lots of stuff breaks if you violate that.  It actually seems weird to me that any objects are allowed beyond those limits at all in the first place.
12:48 erle well i stopped making them at some point
12:48 definitelya s/mso/so
12:48 definitelya true
12:48 erle no it's not 32k limit. player positions have several representations.
12:49 erle definitelya everytime i decide to make 1 bug report i make 5 in the end and lose several hours of life to debug it, so i stopped doing it for the time being. i have low energy.
12:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that if they were going to hard-code the 32k limit so deeply, they might as well have clamped the boundaries regardless of representation.
12:49 erle no, it's a different thing
12:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> In a way maybe it's good that they didn't, but of course that only removes the easy obstacles to boundary expansion.
12:49 definitelya erle: Ah, gotcha.
12:49 erle entity/player positions are floats and they are “clamped” separately
12:50 erle definitelya it has nothing to do with how fast the bug reports are addressed or so, it's just that debugging is a rabbit hole
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12:51 erle Warr1024 i believe it is this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11742
12:51 MTDiscord <Warr1024> funnily enough, I've actually never really seen much point to 32-bit floats as a data type.  Every time I've wanted a floating point number, I pretty much always just start with a double, and apparently the designers of languages like js or lua seem to agree.
12:51 Oblomov Warr1024: you're obviously too young
12:52 erle > the problem is that player:get_pos() can return a position that minetest.get_objects_inside_radius() can not use
12:52 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha, it's super rare that I ever get called "too young"
12:52 Oblomov there's several excellent reasons for fp32: higher performance, lower memory footprint being the primary two
12:52 MTDiscord <Warr1024> No, I have never had to conserve space on a punchcard, but I'm not all that young.
12:52 Oblomov 8-D
12:53 erle the problem is that not all positions roundtrip through the serialization
12:53 erle this will be an issue with bigger world sizes
12:53 Oblomov I use fp32 everywhere, but I mostly write GPU HPC code, so the impact of fp64 vs fp32 is SIGNIFICANT
12:53 erle obviously
12:53 MTDiscord <Warr1024> erle is correct though that regardless of what's going on under the hood, an API spitting out a value that causes that same API to choke when it's passed back in unmodified is just embarrassing at the least :-)
12:53 Oblomov oh that's definitely true
12:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Eh, maybe I just don't use floats because I do very little front-end work. I know that I see them very rarely in the wild EXCEPT for GUIs where they're used for positions and sizes quite often.
12:54 Oblomov honestly I would keep the player pos representation as 32-bit int for the node coords + fp32 position within the node
12:54 Oblomov but this would require rewriting the entire lua stack
12:54 erle floats are a good data type. there are only 4 billion of them and floats are fast, so you can unit test them all.
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12:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If it were me I'd probably make the player pos 64-bit floats.  If you ever get enough players on at the same time that the memory or perf impact of those is significant, you've got a Good Problem To Have.
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12:56 Oblomov (also 32 bits of precision for the local fraction of node is too much, maybe 32 + 8 would be enough but would need an fp8 library)
12:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's also way simpler than the int+float approach
12:56 Oblomov Warr1024: the patchset to expand the world size to 32-bit^3 does that
12:56 Oblomov Warr1024: int+float has uniform accuracy throughout the domain, fp64 is less accurate towards the edge of the domain
12:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I doubt that 32+8 would be any better than 32+32, aside from giving you the option to pack it more tightly for storage.
12:57 Oblomov yeah,32+8 would just be a way to spare storate/network
12:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> fp64 would go from having way too much precision near the center of the domain to only moderately too much precision toward the edge.  It's pretty far down on my list of concerns.
12:57 Oblomov also 40 bits fit well in a fp64
12:57 celeron55 floats are common on less powerful systems like cortex m3 (which doesn't even have an FPU) and cortex m4 (which only supports float, not double)
12:58 celeron55 as for minetest, it probably only matters in terms of memory footprint
12:58 celeron55 and network footprint
12:58 celeron55 (and storage footprint)
12:58 Oblomov well, fp64 would have the same memory and network footprint as 32+32
12:59 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean in any event you'd just have a number abstraction and use that, but in the absence of specific compelling evidence to use a more complex one, I'd just use f64 as a starting point.
12:59 Oblomov 32+32 would be beneficial for hw without fp64 support, but then lua needs to be rewritten
12:59 celeron55 i'm enough of an embedded systems programmer to always start with float
12:59 Oblomov s/lua/the lua code in  mt/ obviously
13:00 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I would be surprised if float support is the biggest obstacle to MT running on systems that it currently doesn't run on though.
13:00 Oblomov in fact, for the level of accuracy we need within a node, we might just as well do fixed point
13:01 Oblomov (32+8 again?)
13:01 MTDiscord <Warr1024> 32-bit fixed point would actually be ideal for things like sending rounded player/ent positions over the network.  You'd still want some excess precision internally to prevent rounding from compounding.
13:02 Oblomov you can do 64-bit fixed point internally for the extra precision
13:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I think you could represent an object's position with 24 bits of fixed point and it would be very hard to notice the rounding.
13:03 Oblomov anyway, all this I think is moot since I doubt there's any intention to blow up the lua api completely
13:03 Oblomov unless there's an intention to start migrating now
13:03 Oblomov plan for something that will transitiononly 5-10 years down the line
13:04 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean it could be a thing where you just convert stuff to/from double for Lua only and use other representations elsewhere, but I just seriously doubt that there's enough value to that to make it worth the trouble.
13:05 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The only way that a 5 year plan isn't drastically modified over those 5 years would be if you more or less didn't actually execute on it :-)
13:05 Oblomov it would fit with the rethinking of the world coordinate system to allow larger domains though
13:05 erle celeron55 how do you deal with people who write bad floating point code and then use that as a justification to write more bad floating point code because “floating point is inaccurate anyways”?
13:05 erle celeron55 also do you know any more gotchas than the x87 gcc FPU rounding fuckup?
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14:41 definitelya I have a devious plan...
14:41 definitelya Now that Twitter got musked, we could target Elon with Minetest related content, so he'd be likely to share it on his platform and make others interested!
14:43 lagash Does he even play Minecraft?
14:43 definitelya It's foolproof I tell you.
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14:58 mmuller build some models of his cars and rockets in MT and you might just be onto something.
14:59 mmuller Also, lol at "Twitter got musked"
15:02 definitelya ;)
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15:09 independent_ Items seem to be skipping a pipe t-junction into empty drawers
15:11 independent_ https://youtu.be/o5FrG36ITrs
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15:50 Pexin how much musk must a muskrat musk if a muskrat must musk much?
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17:43 sfan5 quick: someone suggest a table deep equal implementation in Lua
17:45 Krock copy table.copy
17:45 Krock but run compare rather than assign
17:45 Krock is that quick enough?
17:47 sfan5 might be
17:47 Oblomov serialize sorting keys and compare the strings 8-D
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17:50 Desour eq(a1, a2, et) et=et or {} if a1==a2 then return end if type(a1)~="table"or type(a2)~="table"then return false end if et[a1]and et[a1][a2]then return true end et[a1]=et[a1]or{}et[a1][a2]=true et[a2]=et[a2]or{}et[a2][a1]=true for k,v in pairs(a1)do if not eq(a2[k],v,et) then return false end for k,v in pairs(a2)do if not eq(a1[k],v,et) then return false end end
17:51 Desour ^ something like this maybe
17:52 Desour but, do you want for example {[{}]=1} and {[{}]=1} to be equal?
17:53 sfan5 tables should be compared by contents, not identity
17:53 sfan5 oh but you point is Lua does that differently
17:53 sfan5 whatever, I don't plan to do that
17:53 sfan5 +r
17:54 Krock next up challenge: compare functions by their original name (using the function ID/address as input)
17:55 Desour Krock: you have debug.getinfo in minetest https://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#pdf-debug.getinfo
17:59 Krock oh nice
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18:04 Desour you could also look at how luassert (used by busted) does its compare: https://github.com/Olivine-Labs/luassert/blob/e2ab0d218d7a63bbaa2fdebfa861c24a48451e9d/src/util.lua#L12
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18:05 sfan5 wrote my own https://0x0.st/obmM.png
18:19 sfan5 fixing the two syntax errors is left as an exercise to the reader
18:22 Oblomov I would do it sligthly differently
18:23 Oblomov if type(a) ~= type(b) then return false
18:23 Oblomov if type(a) ~= 'table' then return a == b
18:23 Oblomov and then the deepequal
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18:28 MTDiscord <luatic> for - then :D
18:29 MTDiscord <luatic> anyways sfan5: modlib has three deep equality implementations based on what you need
18:29 sfan5 I don't plan to import modlib into devtest ;)
18:29 MTDiscord <luatic> What you got there is basically a shorter version of equals_noncircular
18:29 MTDiscord <luatic> sfan5: I wouldn't want you to
18:31 MTDiscord <luatic> Anyways, should you ever need a deep equality check which deals properly with circular tables (which first needs to be defined), consider having a look at https://github.com/appgurueu/modlib/blob/b7ae328aab904c009457f9d04aad003da1557421/table.lua and https://github.com/appgurueu/modlib/blob/b7ae328aab904c009457f9d04aad003da1557421/table.lua
18:31 MTDiscord <luatic> Looking back I'm somewhat ashamed of the time complexity though
18:32 MTDiscord <luatic> TL;DR: Circular refs & table keys are nasty (BTW your impl. won't properly deal with table keys as during indexing it'll go by identity)
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19:22 independent_ Why does water take so much memory?
19:23 independent_ I make a massive water deluge system for forest fires and now the server crawls
19:23 independent_ I wish it was made more efficent
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20:33 jonadab Are you sure it's the memory usage that's causing the slowness?  I was under the impression that flowing water has to be regularly checked to see whether it should flow differently.
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20:43 independent_ Ah, makes snese
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22:40 independent_ Where are the docs for the digilines API for street's signals?
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22:41 independent_ Or do i have to read the code like someone without documentation?
22:43 MTDiscord <Jonathon> the latter basically
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22:43 MTDiscord <Jonathon> digilines has a small wiki
22:43 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest-mods/digilines/wiki
22:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> For every 20 people asking about documentation or complaining about the lack of any, there's 0 to 1 actually writing any...
22:45 MTDiscord <Jonathon> relevant issue https://github.com/minetest-mods/digilines/issues/74, doesnt help the mod is held in a mostly dead org
22:47 independent_ I'll write some on my wiki
22:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Just because minetest-mods has a separate direction from mt-mods doesnt make it a dead org. It was updated yesterday, and frequently before that. Please stop whining about minetest-mods.
22:48 MTDiscord <Jonathon> didnt say it was dead, said mostly
22:49 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Any kind of dead doesnt apply to a repo that gets updates at least every few days
22:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> lately it has been a bit more active
22:49 MTDiscord <Jonathon> hopefully that improves
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