| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:01 |
rubenwardy |
you could search for it in builtin/mainmenu |
| 00:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> padding allows you to remove vrobs arbitrary limits, however due to rounding errors, you probably should set it slightly negative |
| 00:02 |
rubenwardy |
looks like window_width isn't used at all |
| 00:02 |
rubenwardy |
another property on that table is shown in the About tab - render info |
| 00:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> so basically use padding to remove vrobs arbitrary limits, then figure out some conversion from screen_width to formspec units, and set that in size[] |
| 00:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> using -0.01 should be good enough, from my testing at least |
| 00:17 |
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| 00:24 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> coredevs, Im complaining that there is no way to do animation in the mainmenu; there is no analogue to minetest.after or minetest.register_globalstep that I can see. If you know of a way tho? maybe smth with the async functions? |
| 00:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you cant use a animated texture? |
| 00:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> isnt the download button in content animated? |
| 00:26 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> yes you can use an animated texture, but that isnt the same thing as animating formspec elements |
| 00:27 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> sliding movement of elements |
| 00:27 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> maybe I want the minetest logo to slide in from the top, for example |
| 00:27 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> well, that can be hacked in |
| 00:27 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> but, there are many other usecases that cant |
| 00:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> depending on what you want to do, you can use button pressed hacks, see pipeworks toggled, basically you have two buttons and pressed moves the texture half way, to give a animated feel |
| 00:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/749727888659447960/960336150667591760/unknown.png |
| 00:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> @MisterE ^ |
| 01:15 |
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| 12:18 |
BuckarooBanzai |
Krock: about your latest additions to the `unified_inventory` mod: is the backwards-compat break intended? For example in `5.1.1` the button-group is displayed on the top of the ui: https://pandorabox.io/images/8/81/Unified_inventory_in_minetest_5_1_1.png |
| 12:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> BuckarooBanzai: https://github.com/minetest-mods/unified_inventory/blob/master/mod.conf#L8 |
| 12:27 |
BuckarooBanzai |
ok, its intentional then ? |
| 12:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> has been 5.4 for a long time |
| 12:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> since VE did the update for formspec v4 |
| 12:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> try out fs51 for backwards compat formspecs |
| 12:28 |
BuckarooBanzai |
Never had an issue myself, i tend to keep my client up to date, that was a screenshot of another player, not everybody updates stuff regularly :) |
| 12:36 |
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| 12:42 |
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| 12:42 |
tech_exorcist |
hello, is it possible to move chests with their content without emptying them, destroying them, placing them where desired, and filling them up again? |
| 12:47 |
BuckarooBanzai |
tech_exorcist: use the `technic` wrench or WE ;) |
| 12:47 |
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| 12:48 |
tech_exorcist |
BuckarooBanzai: how do I use it without creative mode? |
| 12:49 |
BuckarooBanzai |
hm, you don't, afaik it has to explicitly enabled and is only available with `/give` |
| 12:49 |
BuckarooBanzai |
i'm assuming you are on the "stock" technic mod, right? |
| 12:50 |
tech_exorcist |
I looked up "technic" in the contents tab in MT (5.5.0) and installed the first one |
| 12:51 |
tech_exorcist |
the name is "technic" in the list of installed content |
| 12:51 |
BuckarooBanzai |
there was some effort in the `mt-mods` technic fork to make them stable and usable within a survival context |
| 12:51 |
BuckarooBanzai |
you are playing locally in singleplayer, right? |
| 12:52 |
tech_exorcist |
yes |
| 12:53 |
tech_exorcist |
in this world in particular I decided to only use resources that can be farmed, such as trees, wheat, cotton, flowers |
| 12:53 |
BuckarooBanzai |
can't you just `/give` yourself a few wrenches then? You don't really have an advantage over anything with them IMO |
| 12:53 |
tech_exorcist |
sure I can, but what's the technical name to use with /give? |
| 12:54 |
tech_exorcist |
sorry, I'm bad at explaining myself |
| 12:56 |
BuckarooBanzai |
`/give wrench:wrench` should work |
| 12:56 |
BuckarooBanzai |
Sorry: `/giveme wrench:wrench` should work |
| 12:56 |
tech_exorcist |
it works |
| 12:57 |
tech_exorcist |
and now the furnace and the chest have changed aspect |
| 12:57 |
tech_exorcist |
but the technical name is still the same in the debug view |
| 12:58 |
tech_exorcist |
when I remove `technic` from the world the chest and furnace should go back to normal, right? (btw, the furnace is the only thing for which I mined non-renewable resources) |
| 12:59 |
BuckarooBanzai |
the changed "aspects" for the furnace and chest come most likely from the pipeworks mod i guess |
| 13:01 |
BuckarooBanzai |
but yes: removing the mod should revert that but all nodes from the mod you placed will become "unknown nodes" then |
| 13:01 |
BuckarooBanzai |
*all the technic-nodes |
| 13:01 |
tech_exorcist |
I see, I didn't place any `technical` blocks so I should be good to go (sorry if I mistranslated "aspects" btw) |
| 13:02 |
BuckarooBanzai |
no worries :) |
| 13:02 |
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| 17:37 |
gpcf |
hi, I got a question regarding formspecs and tabbed UIs |
| 17:38 |
gpcf |
is there any relatively lag-free way to create a tabbed UI, other than reinventing the wheel and implementing buttons to pass the pages? |
| 17:46 |
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| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> I tried you solution and maybe I did it wrong, but the chat seems not affected by the change at all. Do I need to have a certain value in the minetest.conf? |
| 19:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Shouldn't. It occurs to me though that hilariously I was distracted while compiling that patch and never actually finished testing it myself either... |
| 19:01 |
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| 19:04 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> @Bastrabun sorry, this is the patch that actually works, not the one I posted earlier (back that one out). http://sprunge.us/Ffysfj |
| 19:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It just changes the startup state of chat to hidden. You can still manually enable it, in case you need to do debuggy stuff. |
| 19:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Cool, thank you ? Will test that immediately |
| 19:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Actually, you can see how you can change the initial state of a lot of things in the surrounding lines. Might be really nice if those could be driven from config instead of hard-coded ? |
| 19:14 |
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| 19:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> I'd like that, too. At the moment way too much is hardcoded. Especially the death formspec being hardcoded bugs me these days. |
| 19:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> The second solution worked, the client now started with chat (and hud) disabled ? Thank you very much! |
| 19:18 |
erle |
Bastrabun if you want to have more toggle-able-options for stuff hardcoded in vanilla minetest you can look at how waspsaliva does it |
| 19:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> This client is a special case, I use it for streaming to twitch 24/7, it autoreconnects after my ISP throws me out every 24 hours. Yay, German ISP. For more general-purpose stuff I need it to be in the default MT client, so that everyone has it. Waspsaliva heavily uses CSMs, right? |
| 19:21 |
erle |
yeah, the idea is to make extra CSM APIs and then have CSMs for it. it is probably a good i dea to use it for streaming if you like stuff like tracers (the stuff that minecraft streamers use). |
| 19:21 |
erle |
i used tracers for a while to not get surprised by other placers |
| 19:22 |
erle |
there are more evil things of course |
| 19:22 |
erle |
like a CSM that records where you saw a player last |
| 19:22 |
erle |
it's unfortunately quite easy to build a lava prison there |
| 19:23 |
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| 19:23 |
erle |
Bastrabun my fav ws CSM is the one that does “put the node in hand 1 layer thicc on all nodes with the same name that you can reach” |
| 19:23 |
erle |
because that way you only need to layout the foundations of your castle |
| 19:24 |
erle |
and can basically move along the walls having it build up |
| 19:24 |
erle |
making towers etc. much less tedious |
| 19:24 |
erle |
and it's such a simple mechanism! |
| 19:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> As long as CSMs are used mainly for cheating and automating stuff (instead of actually playing the game), I can't enable CSMs on the server. Which unfortunaltey rules out all the legitimate uses for CSMs too. I haven't found a solution except waiting for server side CSMs. |
| 19:25 |
erle |
wait how is this cheating? |
| 19:25 |
erle |
it's doing the same thing that you'd do manually, you still need to have the materials |
| 19:25 |
erle |
just saving you clicks |
| 19:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> It's an afk mechanic - I don't want those |
| 19:25 |
erle |
wdym afk? people use it to skip grinding |
| 19:26 |
erle |
and since the reach is like 5 nodes or so, you can't really to much afk with it |
| 19:27 |
erle |
well, i guess this is another “virtual legos are a neoliberal utopia and you only *honest* work should be rewarded, automating grinding is not honest” conversation, in which case, i am done here. |
| 19:27 |
erle |
oh wait, i am not |
| 19:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> I think that's a gamedesign decision, not a political one. |
| 19:28 |
erle |
i greatly admire the developers of crawl (the roguelike), they have one button for “go to the nearest location you have not yet explored“ and one for “hit the closest enemy” |
| 19:28 |
erle |
then they designed their game around that hehe |
| 19:28 |
erle |
so basically … you can hit those buttons a lot, but you'll not get far |
| 19:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> Entirely legit. Rmember the autofire buttons on joysticks? |
| 19:28 |
erle |
no, because i doubt i ever had one |
| 19:28 |
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| 19:29 |
erle |
i'd use keyboard macros |
| 19:29 |
erle |
i did once make a fishing bot that just rightclicked a lot lol |
| 19:29 |
erle |
proving that fishing is a stupid mechanic |
| 19:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Bastrabun> I had all kinds of discussions with people who wanted to automate things. I'm ok with thumb-savers, or stuff that enables people that lost a finger or have poor eyesight. I'm not ok with people downloading a schematic and then have it placed into the world while they sleep. Ohter may want it the other way round. I want art and poetry, not copy and recitation. |
| 19:40 |
erle |
Bastrabun, i think cheating is not purely automation, but stuff that takes the player out of the game loop |
| 19:40 |
definitelya_ |
SSCSM sounds a bit scary to me; could you get hacked really easily with it, if you join a malicious server? |
| 19:40 |
erle |
i.e. autoforward: okay. autofly: okay. autoforward that avoids ravines/lava/mobs: cheating. |
| 19:41 |
definitelya_ |
nvm, this is one of those neverending discussions I'm entering I think lol. |
| 19:41 |
erle |
definitelya_, SSCSM is an idea that no one knows how to implement securely. my proposal for a compromise is that minetest should come with a bunch of CSMs (like mumble and rumble and chatlog) that can be activated or contentdb can have vetted CSMs that are Definitely Not Cheating™. |
| 19:42 |
erle |
so far no one said they find it good |
| 19:42 |
erle |
which probably means everyone thinks it sucks ^^ |
| 19:42 |
erle |
but i'm not the only person with an opinion, so … :D |
| 19:42 |
definitelya_ |
erle: See my concerns above. |
| 19:43 |
definitelya_ |
of course! |
| 19:43 |
erle |
they should definitely not be server-sent |
| 19:43 |
erle |
that's a recipe for disaster |
| 19:45 |
Hawk777 |
How is server-sent Lua in a Minetest client any qualitatively different, security-posture-wise, from server-sent Javascript in a web browser? |
| 19:46 |
erle |
not at all |
| 19:46 |
erle |
and server-sent javascript in a web browser is an unworkable security nightmare |
| 19:46 |
definitelya_ |
Maybe we could mandate it all be open source at least. |
| 19:46 |
Hawk777 |
Your opinion is very very niche. It is, generally speaking, an accepted phenomenon, regardless of your personal feelings on the matter. |
| 19:46 |
erle |
giant companies spend millions of eurodollars on it and many caffeinehours and they can't get it right |
| 19:46 |
erle |
uh, it's not a feeling thing |
| 19:47 |
erle |
it's a *fact* thing |
| 19:47 |
erle |
definitelya_, does not matter, the complexity matters |
| 19:47 |
Hawk777 |
The *fact* is that Javascript in web browsers is an accepted thing in the general world today. |
| 19:47 |
erle |
Hawk777 go read Security Applications of Formal Language Theory, Len Sassaman, Meredith L. Patterson, Sergey Bratus, Michael E. Locasto, Anna Shubina [Dartmouth Computer Science Technical Report TR2011-709], published in IEEE Systems Journal, Volume 7, Issue 3, Sept. 2013 |
| 19:47 |
Hawk777 |
Why? |
| 19:47 |
erle |
https://langsec.org/papers/langsec-tr.pdf |
| 19:48 |
erle |
because then you will understand why a) we have to live with the javascript b) you should not create another abomination like that |
| 19:48 |
erle |
basically, once you switch to a stupid system, you can't really undo it |
| 19:48 |
definitelya_ |
erle: Yes, but if an SSCSM is auditable, it can be vetted and accepted officially, maybe. |
| 19:48 |
erle |
also i want to sleep |
| 19:49 |
definitelya_ |
gn |
| 19:49 |
erle |
definitelya_ no, not even then |
| 19:49 |
Hawk777 |
Meh, I don’t have time to read a 31-page paper. Bye. |
| 19:49 |
erle |
look just read that PDF, it explains in very clear terms why executing arbitrary code is not a good idea |
| 19:49 |
definitelya_ |
xD |
| 19:49 |
erle |
i.e. computers were a mistake |
| 19:50 |
Hawk777 |
My opinion doesn’t matter anyway, I’m not making any of the decisions. |
| 19:50 |
definitelya_ |
fire was a mistake. |
| 19:50 |
definitelya_ |
go back to monke. |
| 19:50 |
erle |
Hawk777 if you want to debate this, you need to have a solid foundation |
| 19:50 |
erle |
regardless of if your opinion matters, you'll ask smarter questions if you can answer the dumber ones yourself |
| 19:51 |
definitelya_ |
Hawk777: ditto |
| 19:51 |
erle |
and maybe figure out how a system that *would* work well would look like |
| 19:51 |
erle |
(hint: entirely unlike javascript lol) |
| 19:52 |
Hawk777 |
Fine, fine, you’ve poked at me enough to add that paper to my reading list. Gonna be months before I get to it though, possibly years. My reading list is long. |
| 19:52 |
erle |
Hawk777 if you read it, follow it up with The Seven Turrets of Babel: A Taxonomy of LangSec Errors and How to Expunge Them, Falcon Darkstar Momot, Sergey Bratus, Sven M. Hallberg, Meredith L. Patterson, in IEEE SecDev 2016, Nov. 2016, Boston. |
| 19:53 |
erle |
Hawk777 http://langsec.org/papers/langsec-cwes-secdev2016.pdf |
| 19:53 |
Hawk777 |
And since you don’t care about my opinion if I haven’t read it, I obviously have nothing more to say to you. |
| 19:53 |
definitelya_ |
Hawk777: Don't do tomorrow what you could complete today! /s |
| 19:53 |
erle |
Hawk777 you'd be well-advised to read both of those papers before designing a new data format or network protocol in any case |
| 19:54 |
erle |
i mention this just in case your reading list is sorted by urgency |
| 19:54 |
erle |
or applicability |
| 19:54 |
Hawk777 |
It isn’t, and even if it were, it probably wouldn’t be ordered by $random_internet_person’s idea of urgency. |
| 19:55 |
Hawk777 |
But I am interested enough to read them sometime. |
| 19:55 |
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| 20:43 |
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| 20:49 |
kabou |
why are formspecs placed in node meta instead of node definitions? |
| 20:50 |
kabou |
what am I missing about the need to have a different formspec for same blocks at different map positions? |
| 20:50 |
kabou |
would it not make more sense (and save map space) to put formspecs inside the node definitions? |
| 20:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> furnaces? |
| 20:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You can't tell how much fuel is in a furnace, or how far along it is in the process, at node registration time. |
| 21:00 |
kabou |
yeah furnaces |
| 21:01 |
kabou |
but the amount of fuel etc isn't that kept in the inventory lists of the node meta? |
| 21:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The formspec needs to be updated to change the arrow/flame graphics |
| 21:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> you could, in principle, register a function in the node def to calculate what the updated formspec should be ... but that's basically on_timer already :-) |
| 21:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The alternative is that you'd have to have every formspec element need to have some way to pull its parameters from an inventory list or other meta field. At that level of complexity, it's better to just pull the entire formspec out of one meta field... |
| 21:06 |
kabou |
i still find it weird. the formspec could be simply a hud thing that is updated by timers and other callbacks defined in the node definition |
| 21:08 |
kabou |
state that is pertininent to specific nodes at specific map positions can be put in the node meta (like the node timers are) without having to put all of the basically static formspec definition copied in every map pos |
| 21:09 |
sfan5 |
without lua callbacks or prerendered formspecs you can barely convert state into the matching formspec |
| 21:10 |
sfan5 |
callbacks were probably avoided for client-side prediction reasons |
| 21:10 |
sfan5 |
but many nodes don't really need or want this so a formspec in the nodedef would make sense for them, I have implementing this on my TODO list |
| 21:12 |
kabou |
well I am not familiar with the whole history of the thing and the design choices that made it into what it is, so I'll have to go with what you guys say |
| 21:12 |
kabou |
it just appeared to me to be somewhat weird how it is when I looked at the furncaes implementation |
| 21:14 |
kabou |
one of the problems I noticed is that when the formspec gets changed or updated in newer versions of the code, you have to update all the node metas with an lbm or some other trick |
| 21:20 |
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| 21:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Being able to pull it from node meta instead of having to painstakingly set it in the node every time you on_construct one (and bloating mapblock sizes) would be helpful, yeah, even if it's not a 100% substitute. |
| 21:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I could see a use-case for supporting both (check meta first, fallback to def) where the def one just provides an initial default, and then formspec interactions could choose to replace it on a per-node basis. |
| 21:23 |
kabou |
agree, that would be a neat feature to have a per map node override |
| 21:24 |
kabou |
while providing the basic ability to not repeat the same data unnecessarily |
| 21:25 |
kabou |
and allowing seamless upgrades of game/mod code without the need to check every map node |
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