Time Nick Message 00:02 Gustavo6046 please deposit your h's in ##h for safekeeping 01:21 MTDiscord :wat: 07:16 sfan5 h 08:20 MTDiscord erle, here is my 2 cents on the "automation" topic: It of course depends on the type of gameplay the server provides but if you play on one where you gain EXP (like mine) for building, mining, killing mobs and more you absolutely DO NOT want any kind of automation you want your players to level up by putting manual effort into the game 08:22 MTDiscord Anything else would be an unfair advantage over others or in other words cheating 08:30 MTDiscord I already implemented anti-cheat mechanics that at least try to prevent the most basic macros from working (e.g. not counting if the player just repeatedly places/digs nodes at the same position) 12:34 independent_ My server takes 30 seconds to start. It would be better if it listened for people requesting to join, held them at the waiting screen, and then began loading when the server is ready. 12:38 MTDiscord It would be better if you optimized your startup times 12:38 MTDiscord Figure out the responsible mods 12:47 independent_ Mostly the ones which log a lot 12:47 independent_ Eh, dosen't really matter 13:26 MTDiscord 30 seconds sounds unreal...mine takes 10 max to fully restart 13:27 MTDiscord I'm sure there are ways to make anything arbitrarily slow. Could be a slow mod, could be an issue with equipment... 13:27 MTDiscord I once accidentally registered some recipes in a way that like quadrupled the original startup time... 13:27 MTDiscord If it's related to logging my guess is HDD 16:27 ludtwig Hey, for those who use minetest on wayland, how do you launch it? Since some weeks I can't, "X_CreateWindow" fails 16:30 ludtwig (for the record, from the arch repos it still works, git main fails) 17:20 jason101 how can i nuke old world and create a new one? i dleeted the directory in /var/games/minetest/worlds/oldworld 17:21 jason101 restarting server made no difference, all of old world contents came back. running minetest on debian in server mode via systemd 17:22 sfan5 check the logs, the server says where the world that it uses is 17:23 sfan5 also just for clarity the order is: stop server, delete world, start server 17:27 jason101 did so. 17:27 jason101 everything came back after deleting the directory and recreating a new directory empty wit hthe same name as the world world. 17:29 erle try a new name and look where a new folder gets created 17:29 sfan5 what does the "ACTION[Main]: World at [...]" line say? 17:29 jason101 i should not be the one creating the world? I should let the server do that part? 17:31 jason101 oh, wow, no matter how i rename the world, it's finding the old one somehow 17:32 jason101 log shows every renamed world directory was loaded. wtf? 17:32 jason101 on every server restart and attempt. how is it still finding it? 17:32 sfan5 the worldname is stored inside world.mt in the world folder 17:33 jason101 every folder in worlds/ is queried for a world.mt file? 17:33 sfan5 probably 17:33 jason101 so how can i backup the old world and generate a fresh clean one for the boys? 17:33 lemonzest gah debian, was a headache getting it to run as a user sevrvice from ~/.minetest/worlds/ 17:33 jason101 id like to import a map, but i guess there's a difference between worlds and maps. 17:34 sfan5 store it somewhere as a zip file 17:34 sfan5 or move it out of the way, e.g. into ~ 17:34 sfan5 or edit world.mt to "really" rename it 17:34 sfan5 or extract the new world with a different name? 17:35 jason101 what do i edit in world.mt? 17:36 sfan5 look for the line that begins with world_name = 17:36 jason101 none. 17:36 jason101 there's no line 17:36 jason101 for that definition. 17:37 sfan5 hm 17:38 jason101 honestly that was my last attempt that was a dead end, so i arrived here to ask for help. 17:38 * jason101 shrugs 17:39 jason101 is it possible or good practice or a practice at all to have multiple worlds stored in the worlds/ folder? 17:40 sfan5 absolutely 17:40 jason101 well, then i started to make something slopppy that's backfiring now. i can't create new worlds and keep old ones. 17:41 jason101 i was hoping to initate server from commandline pointing to the othe world folder 17:41 erle jason101 it is praxis to have a lot of worlds in the worlds folder. however, do not keep your backups there. i read a bug report where minetest deleted them on upgrade. 17:43 sfan5 you can tell minetestserver where to look but no idea how that'd work with the systemd unit (debian provides it) 17:43 sfan5 if nothing works try moving /var/games/minetest/worlds away entirely and see what happens? 17:45 rubenwardy I use a custom systemd unit pointing to a bash file 17:46 rubenwardy which has all the args and a custom error reporting system 17:46 sfan5 erle: I don't know if you can tell yourself, but telling vague scary stories to users is not helpful at all 17:46 erle sfan5 i will look for the bug report then 17:46 erle sfan5 sorry for being too vague 17:48 erle sfan5 jason101 here is it. it is “unconfirmed”, so yes, this is a vague scary story. mea maxima culpa https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12069 17:49 sfan5 you'd have a point if this wasn't specific to Android 17:49 sfan5 (which it is) 17:50 erle oh, that wasn't at all clear to me when remembering it. i should just have looked it up before mentioning it. 17:50 erle regardless, backups do belong somewhere else, per another justification 17:50 erle it's not really a backup if it's the same storage 17:51 erle again, thank you for callilng me out on it, i should really have looked it up. 18:24 hn just smol question - how it is with contentdb? if i want to create a full operating system as an addon (modifying files + network usage + etc etc. ) generally safe addon but needs perma-insecure env... :/ how it is ? 18:27 sfan5 not sure what you mean but mods that require extra permissions can be uploaded to CDB fine, users will just have to grant them to actually us it 18:27 sfan5 use* 19:12 hn i heard they block adding such addon which are forcing insecure env.. 19:16 sfan5 hmm well maybe it's written down in the a policy, dunno 19:16 hn yea but im just asking if i'll get banned then 19:17 hn cause its not my first blocked addon 19:19 rubenwardy Mods requiring insecure env is perfectly fine, there are several 19:19 rubenwardy But do expect a more in-depth review due to the security implications 19:23 hn they'd have moderation. detecting of roles etc.. (anyways - night at me - bye) 19:23 hn tmorrow at discord 19:28 Desour It would be interesting to have a tag on cdb for mods that require or can use the insec env. 19:28 rubenwardy yeah, that was planned at some point 20:04 MTDiscord Isn't there a "nontrivial installation" tag? That's 90% insecure envs / requires. 20:05 MTDiscord Anways hn: Your mod can't possibly be fully secure, at least not for server use solely based on the fact that MITM always works. And that's ignoring all the flaws MT possibly has. 20:09 Desour oh, I had not seen the "Complex installation" flag 20:15 sfan5 rubenwardy: have you made CDB to automatically test-run mods in a sandbox yet? 20:16 rubenwardy no, I don't plan to 20:16 sfan5 >:( 20:16 rubenwardy requires a CDB CLI to start with 20:17 rubenwardy I'd rather not run untrusted code like that either, even in a sandbox and a container 20:17 rubenwardy it could run on a separate VPS and use the REST API 20:19 sfan5 thats being too paranoid, containers are fine 20:20 Desour 3 out of 8 mods on cdb with the "Complex installation" flag (by 2 modders) use the insecure env, and it's used insecurely in all of them... 20:21 rubenwardy yeah, adv_chat leaks the ie to the modlib table 20:22 Desour modlib or whatever else any mod has overridden it with * 20:22 rubenwardy exactly 20:23 rubenwardy irc leaks require 20:23 rubenwardy but that's a limitation in the engine 20:23 Desour character_anim does basically the same mistake 20:24 rubenwardy luatic: ^ 20:24 Desour luatic == LMD? 20:25 rubenwardy yes 20:27 Desour I really wonder/worry about security leaks in my require wrapper: https://github.com/Desour/dslib/blob/e8053f605d183493bd031629eb7ac7ae781e41c5/init.lua#L92 20:29 rubenwardy perhaps there should be a `ie.require2` should set the ie on the module 20:29 rubenwardy *that sets 20:29 rubenwardy as a function env 20:29 rubenwardy would solve the need to assign require as a global 20:30 Desour that's also what my wrapper does 20:30 Desour an unmodified get_modpath in the insec env would be useful too, btw 20:31 sfan5 it would be much more useful to have an environment that is not impossible to secure 20:59 MTDiscord ^ 20:59 MTDiscord this 20:59 MTDiscord Desour: I've basically given up on trying to make stuff fully secure 21:00 MTDiscord Because technically, everything including the Lua stdlib could be overridden 21:00 MTDiscord for a select few funcs (ie. request_insecure_env) it'll be detected and blocked 21:00 MTDiscord but what about loadfile, for instance? 21:01 MTDiscord the proper way to go IMO would be each mod obtaining it's own environment 21:01 MTDiscord mod interoperability could either work through a shared environment or a require-reimplementation specific to MT 21:03 Desour For loadfile, I am using IE.loadfile and checking a sha256sum before. 21:04 Desour IE.loadstring* 21:04 MTDiscord Anyways Desour: My mods don't leak the insecure env 21:04 MTDiscord At least not in the global variable kind of way 21:05 MTDiscord I have to temporarily store them in a mod-scoped var due to my architecture (sometimes I also pass it around using loadfile and chunk args) 21:05 MTDiscord But I always make sure to unset it afterwards, see https://github.com/appgurueu/character_anim/blob/master/importer.lua#L11 f.E. 21:05 MTDiscord So it isn't that easily grabbed 21:06 MTDiscord Although by overriding the right modlib callbacks, it would still be pretty easy 21:07 MTDiscord This leaves me with a nice suggestion: Whenever you're free to topologically reorder a couple mods, always prioritize trusted mods 21:07 MTDiscord This means untrusted mods have to run afterwards, unless they somehow get into the dependency chain of trusted mods 21:07 MTDiscord At which point the trusted mods messed up 21:09 Desour Loading trusted mods and their depends first sounds like a sound thing to do. 21:09 sfan5 (still just bandaid) 21:10 MTDiscord sfan5: but very decent bandaid 21:10 rubenwardy you could keep a lot of compatibility with a per-mod environment with some cleverness 21:10 MTDiscord the environment can only have been tampered with by other trusted mods 21:10 rubenwardy like, using a metatable to capture assignments to _G[the_modname] 21:10 MTDiscord rubenwardy: agreed, but I don't like the performance implications it probably has 21:10 rubenwardy to then expose in other mod's envs 21:11 MTDiscord plus, what about rawset / rawget 21:11 rubenwardy and there's keeping support for overriding minetest.* funcs 21:11 rubenwardy I don't think exposing globals like that is security sensitive, it's a convenience feature 21:17 MTDiscord I just realized I completely forgot to update Cellestial Game 21:18 MTDiscord It didn't get all the shiny modlib updates