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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-03-24

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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00:47 MisterE hey, do you have any news for me for the minetest blog post? I know about the new png encoder, but I havnt been following engine development too closely in the last few weeks.
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00:48 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> the png encoder isnt exactly new
00:53 MisterE oh, heh, I thought I was PMing sfan5
00:53 MisterE rip
00:56 MTDiscord <MisterE> oh, that was added in 5.5 huh, missed that.
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03:24 erlehmann MisterE when you mention the PNG encoding in the engine, also mention the pure lua thing in modlib, just so it's clear that this can be done backwards compatible.
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07:40 sfan5 isn't it kinda obvious that often functions added in the engine can be replicated by hand in Lua?
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07:49 Oblomov sfan5: well, it's often, not always (depends how tightly they depend on stuff not exposed by the engine to lua), so it might be appropriate to specify
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10:15 MTDiscord <luatic> MisterE: I thought the blog was supposed to be concerned with recent events? The PNG encoders are both significantly older than the first blog post. Perhaps add some kind of "in case you missed it" kind of thing to cover past developments?
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11:03 celeron55 i certainly don't see why you couldn't/shouldn't showcase old stuff that wasn't showcased before
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13:06 erlehmann sfan5 the thing with PNG encoding in particular is that you probably want backwards compatibility. also in my measurements (encoding up to 128×128 images), doing stuff in lua is not even meaningfully slower.
13:06 erlehmann and since at least luatic claims that the encoders are similar …
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13:10 erlehmann MisterE for the blogpost, you could highlight the release of mineclone2 0.72. it has mcl_maps (using tga_encoder), barrels (like chests, but movable and a full node), composters (to make organic matter into fertilizer), corrsbow (yes, it is called that in the game) … and a new bug where pigs, sheep, and villagers spawn on trees (and basically everywhere you can find a solid node, lol).
13:11 erlehmann mineclone2 has not had a release for a year or so
13:11 erlehmann it's probably a good idea to mention it
13:12 erlehmann because that way the advice “don't update from contentdb, update using git directly” can finally go the way of the dodo
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14:02 erlehmann rubenwardy given mod incompatibilities, do you see an issue with the fact that mcl5 published an mcl_maps that was compatible with mcl_maps used in mcl2 and mcla (in fact, it was basically a copy of it) and then changed it in an incompatible way recently? or is this not a problem because there is no API exposed that another mod could depend on?
14:03 erlehmann i mean in all 3 cases it is part of a game and not a standalone mod on contentdb
14:04 erlehmann but if at some point in the future some feature would depend on existence of maps (e.g. treasure maps), then it might be? unclear to me.
14:05 erlehmann i mean, i'll probably just add such stuff to mcl_maps once i get to it. it's more a “figure out the gameplay balance” than a technical thing.
14:06 erlehmann but i think it could help if there was a clear guideline under which circumstances it is permissible to have a mod named the same and under which circumstances it is not
14:07 erlehmann and I think changing an API in an incompatible way could be a good start
14:07 erlehmann it would still leave open all kinds of enhancements
14:07 erlehmann but prevent the “well, minetest things you have this, but actually you don't” scenario
14:08 erlehmann thinks
14:10 erlehmann this is not about mcl_maps in particular. i think i have done the majority of development on it after fleckenstein stopped and i simply stopped caring about what mcl5 does. i just think it is a neat example for figuring out some guidelines.
14:10 erlehmann and it would apply to many mods in games i think.
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14:29 ronoaldo not that it is big thing but if there is room you can showcase my mod which lead to a small contribution to another mod along the way: minenews (shameless self promotion)
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16:28 gargamel I haven't seen a witch house in weeks any clues?
16:40 MTDiscord <Jonathon> erlehmann: get your facts straight
16:40 MTDiscord <Jonathon> "mineclone2 has not had a release for a year or so" https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/mineclone2/ look at releases
16:40 rubenwardy 2022-03-13,  2021-03-1
16:40 rubenwardy checks out for me
16:40 rubenwardy over a year
16:41 rubenwardy 0.72.0 was this month
16:41 MTDiscord <Jonathon> yeah, so it has had a release within a year
16:41 rubenwardy I think they meant "had not had a release"
16:42 MTDiscord <Jonathon> never corrected it 🤷
16:42 rubenwardy you never correct your typos
16:42 MTDiscord <Jonathon> anyways, if they want to also complain about the minor thing that is maps, they should first address all mineclon*s massive issue with using the mesecon* names
16:45 MTDiscord <Jonathon> also, if im remembering this correctly, maps where only added in the latest release on mineclone2, which mineclone5 has been releasing to cdb much more often, and had the change before cdb ever had a mineclone2 release, so technically from the cdb point of things, mineclone5 got it first
16:45 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^citation needed on this
16:46 MTDiscord <Jonathon> also for anyone else that cares, see https://content.minetest.net/policy_and_guidance/ section 3, but it really only applies at approval time
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19:12 erlehmann Jonathon yes the mesecon stuff is similar to the maps, you are totally on point there!
19:14 erlehmann jonathon i doubt “whoever got the stuff on cdb first has the right to trash it” goes down well with people who created mcl_maps (fleckenstein) or who are enhancing it (me)
19:15 rubenwardy the policy about getting things first was designed for mods, rather than games
19:15 rubenwardy the mod case is just much simpler
19:15 rubenwardy It's unfair to a game if mod names were allowed to be stolen
19:15 erlehmann well, if i create a mod and someone else puts it up on contentdb and then at some point later makes it incompatible, can i upload a fixed version?
19:16 erlehmann of the mod i mean
19:16 rubenwardy given that mcl_ is in mineclone2's namespace, I'd say that mineclone2 and mineclone5 should both have the right to it
19:16 erlehmann well, mcla also uses it
19:17 erlehmann because everything is supposed to be at least roughly compatible with mcl2
19:17 erlehmann (in most cases, it is just a straight up copy)
19:17 erlehmann the thing is, jonathon is right, this applies to mesecons/redstone too.
19:17 erlehmann so the problem has been lurking there for a while, it is only that no one so far blatantly broke compatibility
19:18 erlehmann or maybe they did
19:18 erlehmann but i did not notice
19:18 erlehmann i bet i find some mesecons problems if i look for them
19:19 erlehmann rubenwardy if you hae any guidance how to avoid stuff like this in the future, let me know. but i can only make *my* code a drop-in replacement for other people's code. i can not stop them from butchering stuff.
19:20 rubenwardy only way to avoid it is to stop forking projects
19:21 erlehmann well, mcl5 was forked because very few people agreed with kays “move fast and break bedrock” idea and mcla was created because at least initially people liked having absolutely no regressions. many regret that now!
19:21 erlehmann a friend, who does project management says that extensive testing works 100% but is entirely unfun, so he quit
19:22 erlehmann i doubt there is some space between those 3 to make more forks, but i also think that mcl5 will continue the trajectory of not even being compatible with earlier versions of itself.
19:23 erlehmann well, i guess i should prepare an mcla release for cdb
19:23 erlehmann april's fools release or so ;)
19:23 erlehmann rubenwardy is it possible to depend on gamename/modname ?
19:23 erlehmann rubenwardy that would solve it cleanly
19:23 erlehmann at least for this use case
19:24 rubenwardy that would make it so that if someone depends on mineclone2/modname, it won't work with mineclonia
19:24 erlehmann indeed
19:24 rubenwardy #12034
19:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12034 -- Improve mod dependency system
19:24 rubenwardy the related issue
19:25 erlehmann i have a simple example why i came up with that. i made crying obsidian and put it in mcl_core in mcla. kay was like “haha why don't you make it a separate mod”. i agreed, i can only depend on it if i make it one.
19:26 erlehmann turns out he was only mocking me and put it in mcl_core in mcl5. now the problem is that i have plans to actually make a mod that needs crying obsidian, but i can't depend on mcl_core obviously.
19:26 erlehmann i'd like to depend on mcl5/mcl_core or so
19:26 erlehmann i mean i don't *need* to be compatible with mcl5, but it would be nice if i just could
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23:44 Desour lately I've often seen in the logs that people refer to issues via their link, ie. https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1234 . It would be nice if ShadowBot would look up the title for those
23:46 wsor will be redundant for people that have link embeds in there irc client
23:47 erle they can ignore the bot
23:47 wsor well yes, but actually no
23:47 wsor because then it would also be ignoring up, # numbers, etc
23:48 erle oh
23:48 wsor anyways, just putting it out there, doesnt matter to me either way
23:48 erle a separate botis needed
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23:48 urli_65709 This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the GNU Affero General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. To download and verify the source code, execute: “git clone http://daten.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/src/urlinfobot-irc.git/;cd urlinfobot-irc;git verify-commit HEAD”
23:48 erle https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1234
23:48 urli_65709 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1234 Title: Client side caching of mapblocks · Issue #1234 · minetest/minetest · GitHub
23:49 erle Desour, this is a bot i have written for exactly this purpose. do you like it?
23:49 erle https://google.cn https://google.jp
23:49 urli_65709 https://google.cn Title: Google
23:49 urli_65709 https://google.jp Title: Google
23:49 erle damn lol
23:49 erle https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki
23:49 urli_65709 https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki Title: wiki - 维基百科,自由的百科全书
23:49 erle yeah so it can do more than latin 1
23:50 erle Desour can you make it run somewhere?
23:50 erle i have no server rn
23:51 rubenwardy erle: bots aren't allowed in this channel without permission
23:51 erle rubenwardy i didn't know that, please forgive me.
23:52 Desour (don't have server either, kind bot though :) )
23:52 wsor #1
23:52 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome
23:52 wsor oddly similar style
23:52 erle the reason is that putting the URL at the front is the only way this can work
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23:54 erle i have gotten tons of feedback from people who can't parse their way out of a wet paper bag that they dislike it a lot, but everyone has their own cute idea how to do it differently that doesn't really associate a URL with a title.
23:54 Samson1 Hello again! I need a hand with something. 3d_armour, 'attempt to call field 'player_register_model' (a nil value.).'
23:54 Samson1 The line it failed to call is this: local def = stack:get_definition()
23:55 Samson1 Any ideas?
23:55 wsor let guess, still running the same stack of half outdated mods?
23:55 erle usually every “not putting the URL in front” approach has issues with multiple URLs in one chat message and/or hosts that take long to respond
23:55 Samson1 wsor No, I updated everything.
23:56 wsor *let me guess
23:58 wsor noone@none_of_your_business grep -r player_register_model 3d_armor/
23:59 wsor 3d_armor/3d_armor/init.lua:default.player_register_model("3d_armor_character.b3d", {
23:59 wsor well, first things first, the mod should be updated out of the darkages
23:59 Samson1 It's the latest version of the mod.
23:59 wsor https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/blob/42baede13fdf855773cc44ce10f4a3ea4e239404/mods/default/legacy.lua#L33
23:59 wsor ik
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