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IRC log for #minetest, 2022-03-20

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Time Nick Message
00:25 Yad joined #minetest
00:28 Philaire joined #minetest
00:32 MTDiscord <MisterE> Wait for sfan5 to appear, he can help you, likely
00:32 erlehmann Philaire ok so rebuilds are not possible basically
00:32 erlehmann Philaire the reason is that minetest uses cmake and make, which are both really bad at dependency tracking for incremental builds.
00:33 erlehmann Philaire you absolutely HAVE to make a clean build every time, otherwise, even if it compiles, your binary may not correspond to the source code.
00:34 Yad joined #minetest
00:35 erlehmann Philaire https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11749
00:36 erlehmann Philaire so yeah, make an entirely clean checkout, then a clean bild.
00:36 erlehmann build
00:37 RhineDevil^ joined #minetest
00:37 Yad joined #minetest
00:38 RhineDevil^ joined #minetest
00:39 MTDiscord <MisterE> is he still there?
00:44 erlehmann MisterE, yes, you can look in the list of channel users
00:45 MTDiscord <MisterE> I'm in discord, no I cant
00:45 MTDiscord <MisterE> Without logging in to irc that is
00:46 Yad joined #minetest
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01:01 Philaire Still here
01:01 Philaire managed to downgrade the whole packages
01:01 Philaire for good
01:02 Philaire and strangely, lag vanished :/
01:02 Philaire which makes me wonder
01:03 nogajun[m] left #minetest
01:03 Philaire what the h*** happened from 5.4.1 to 5.5.0 ? :/
01:03 nogajun[m] joined #minetest
01:04 erlehmann a lot
01:04 erlehmann Philaire to make it more FUN, it is very hard to bisect issues :D
01:04 Philaire Network-wise, I mean. :P
01:05 erlehmann that's a question best asked to sfan5
01:06 Samson1 joined #minetest
01:06 Philaire What's confusing is that MineClone2 works with 5.4.1 better too
01:08 Philaire ... why would I need to update to 5.5.0, then ?
01:08 erlehmann Philaire better in what way?
01:08 Philaire Lag-wise and desync-wise.
01:09 RhineDevil joined #minetest
01:09 erlehmann curious
01:10 erlehmann Philaire file an issue about that on the mineclone2 issue tracker please: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues
01:10 Philaire How so?
01:11 Philaire I mean, the bug is clearly linked to MT rather than one of its games
01:14 erlehmann Philaire it might be avoidable to trigger it from mineclone2, if we know how
01:14 Philaire You're a MC2 dev ? :)
01:15 erlehmann Philaire i have contributed performance and stability fixes to it, either directly or via mineclonia. https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia
01:15 Philaire Another MC clone ?
01:17 erlehmann TL;DR: mineclone2 0.71 was horrible performance-wise, so cora, me and some other people forked from it. turns out that a) it is possible to apply a strict testing and review regime to software to make new features not contain new mistakes b) people absolute hate doing that work and constantly complain about it being “too slow”.
01:18 Philaire What would be useful to post along the issue ?
01:18 erlehmann so recently, mineclone2 needed a new maintainer, and cora took over. now there is mineclone2 0.72 which is between mineclonia and mineclone5 in terms of features (mineclone5 is the random spaghetti bleeding edge stuff, avoid it if you want a long-term world, try it if you like your new features also bringing new bugs).
01:19 erlehmann basically, i want to know if mineclonia triggers the bug
01:19 erlehmann because if it does not, it is some new feature that does it
01:19 erlehmann uh, does mineclone2 have an issue template yet?
01:20 erlehmann just post everything that could possibly help. operating system, hardware, ideally: how to reprouduce this.
01:20 Philaire Well, so far, I can tell you that I had this problem already six months ago when I first stumbled upon Minetest.
01:20 erlehmann which version of mineclone2 and minetest did you use
01:20 erlehmann down to the commit hashes
01:20 erlehmann CPU architecture ofc
01:20 Philaire Hence why I didn't try it for longer.
01:20 erlehmann how you built minetest, like compile flags
01:21 erlehmann i have encountered a lot of problems but never this one
01:21 erlehmann i mean, minetest has like over 1000 open issues
01:21 erlehmann so my question is: have you opened a *minetest* issue already?
01:21 Philaire Not yet.
01:21 erlehmann do that first
01:21 Philaire Again, I'm trying to see if it's *me* who's doing things wrong first
01:22 Philaire then b) I have to wait until I'm home
01:22 erlehmann sfan5 will close your issue in 20 minutes if you do anything even remotely like that
01:22 erlehmann doesn't pull punches lol
01:22 Philaire It's 2.23 AM and I'm not home
01:23 Philaire have nothing to properly make an issue
01:23 Philaire so I'll do it tomorrow evening
01:23 erlehmann also there are several bugs in minetest that were not fixed by mcl2 or mcla or mcl5 devs but we found them and did debugging work and made workarounds
01:23 Philaire but should I post it as MT or MC2?
01:23 erlehmann two things
01:23 erlehmann first post about your general problems to minetest issue tracker
01:24 erlehmann then figure out if anything in mineclone2 triggers the minetest behavior. there is some stuff that games should just avoid, like spawning too many particles.
01:25 erlehmann like, honestly, mineclone2 0.71 makes you lag if you wear enchanted armor
01:25 erlehmann because the armor has too much metadata
01:25 Philaire ... how comes a C++ game for lowends can lag? :/
01:26 erlehmann easy
01:26 erlehmann first, minetest engine is a group work that has 10 years of history
01:27 erlehmann second, no super designed API will help you when some game, for example, spawns 1000 independent entities that are all updated in every frame or so
01:27 erlehmann the network traffic alone for that can not be optimized away
01:28 erlehmann Philaire easy test: use /forceenchant command to make a sword that is enchanted to make a lot of damage
01:28 erlehmann in mineclone2 there are black hearts spawned for the damage
01:28 erlehmann sooooo
01:28 erlehmann hit someone with a 32k sword and boom lag
01:29 Philaire I'll try it tomorrow.
01:29 erlehmann in this case, because particle rendering in minetest has been cursed for a long time (and it is not easy to replace with the irrlicht particle rendering apparently)
01:29 Philaire For now, I'm seeking if something similar to "SkyFactory" modpack exists... ^^'
01:29 Philaire (am on phone)
01:29 erlehmann what is that doing?
01:30 Philaire Basically
01:30 erlehmann but like, mineclone2 0.71 and minetest_game were sending HUD flags way too often
01:30 erlehmann that also causes traffic
01:30 Philaire skyblock + machines in Minecraft
01:30 Philaire https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/modpacks/skyfactory-4
01:31 erlehmann AFAIK there are at least three basic machinery options you can have in minetest: mesecons (redstone in mineclone2 is modified mesecons), whatever nodecore does, mech (which is used in “inside the box”)
01:32 erlehmann mesecons is by far the most popular
01:32 Philaire I'm used to the Minecraft Forge API
01:33 erlehmann no idea what forge is
01:33 erlehmann could you elaborate?
01:33 Philaire Sure
01:33 Philaire basically
01:33 Philaire Minecraft is in Java, with a (very) bad code structure (IMHO).
01:34 Philaire As modding is not possible, some genius devs have made a kind of layer to mod it.
01:35 Philaire This is called Minecraft Forge.
01:35 Philaire Basically, it modifies the .jar and adds a modding api.
01:36 Philaire But it works
01:36 Philaire and since something which works isn't stupid
01:36 Philaire it's a somewhat non stupid idea.
01:37 erlehmann ah
01:37 erlehmann minetest is much better in terms of mods
01:37 Philaire Main dev of forge (if not the only one) is LexManos
01:37 erlehmann like MUCH better
01:37 Philaire I know :P
01:38 Philaire but it lacks fame and acceptability
01:38 Philaire or diversity
01:38 erlehmann ok so i suggest to open a minetest issue
01:38 erlehmann diversity?
01:38 Philaire in the way that Minecraft is
01:38 Philaire perhaps not "diversity"
01:38 Philaire more like...
01:38 Philaire ...
01:39 Philaire ...well, it's mostly on reputation, still, but people are much aware of Minecraft
01:39 erlehmann yes obviously
01:39 erlehmann so?
01:39 Philaire there are many launchers or modpacks in Minecraft
01:39 erlehmann there are more mods than you can reasonably try yourself for minetest already
01:39 erlehmann and so many games that you can play for months and still not get bored
01:40 Philaire ah, I don't disagree with that
01:40 erlehmann i don't really see what you are missing
01:40 Philaire the "packaging" or "advertisement"?
01:40 erlehmann besides, say, API stability
01:40 erlehmann not again
01:40 Philaire https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/
01:40 Philaire for example
01:40 Philaire There is contentdb
01:40 erlehmann that page is not very userfriendly
01:40 erlehmann it says
01:40 erlehmann > Please complete the security check to access www.curseforge.com
01:41 erlehmann > Why do I have to complete a CAPTCHA?
01:41 erlehmann this is total crap sorry
01:41 erlehmann i have made websites for a living and i would NEVER show anyone a captcha for readonly access
01:41 erlehmann please give me a better example than this
01:41 erlehmann i am not completing that captcha
01:42 Philaire ...
01:42 Philaire ...that's not curseforge
01:42 Philaire that's CloudFlare DDoS protection
01:42 erlehmann you want a screenshot?
01:42 olliy joined #minetest
01:43 erlehmann look, i am going to that website and it's HTTPS. so it can ONLY be the one who ultimately controls the website who is showing me that. or my system is borked.
01:43 Philaire No, because I'm not disbelieving you
01:43 erlehmann if you say, oh, but they delegated that to cloudflare, well, i don't care. the end user experience is total crap already.
01:43 rubenwardy are you using Tor?
01:43 erlehmann no
01:43 erlehmann i am using the same connection that i always use
01:44 erlehmann with current firefox
01:44 erlehmann on a debian system
01:44 Philaire well, I can say that I have no Captcha and claim to have a nice user experience
01:44 erlehmann regardless, this is absolutely unforgivable
01:44 Philaire but that's not valid for the discussion
01:44 erlehmann okay, so what *did* you want to discuss?
01:44 erlehmann i mean http://www.minetest.net/ is not good enough for you?
01:45 Philaire calm down
01:45 Philaire no need to attack me
01:45 Philaire I'm from a MC background
01:45 Philaire and trying to switch for MT
01:45 erlehmann rubenwardy, btw i think on http://www.minetest.net/ there should be “contentDB” changed to “get mods” or something more descriptive. what do you think?
01:45 erlehmann or browse mods
01:45 Philaire for example
01:46 Philaire ContentDB is "only" 1200 mods
01:46 Philaire Curseforge lists ... 99159 mods.
01:46 Philaire (for minecraft)
01:46 erlehmann Philaire, oh i am not angry. i just wanted to use the strongest possible language to reflect my absolute disdain for this practie of showing captcha for readonly access.
01:47 erlehmann regardless
01:47 erlehmann what difference does it make how many mods are there? is there something missing?
01:47 Philaire Well, in terms of diversity of mods.
01:47 erlehmann not necessarily true
01:48 Philaire ... let me put it in your words, then :P
01:48 Philaire You're complaining for a captcha that prevents you from browsing a website : bad experience for you.
01:49 erlehmann show me a single mod for minecraft in which you can build as high as minetest :P
01:49 erlehmann not sure if anything of this is your thing https://content.minetest.net/packages/?q=skyblock
01:49 Philaire I'm mentionning that the usual mods I'm using fails to find an equivalent for Minetest, either due to a small number of mods on ContentDB or... well, is there some other place I can gather mods ?
01:50 erlehmann yeah, but this complaint is like complaining that there is no defrag program for linux filesystem
01:50 Philaire Well, this would be my thing... but all mods mention "this is for NodeCore only", for example.
01:50 erlehmann minetest is not an equivalent of minecraft
01:50 Philaire And I have no clue what NodeCore is (for example).
01:50 erlehmann a game
01:51 erlehmann so you install nodecore and then the mod
01:51 Philaire And the correct answer to such a  complaint would be "you don't need to defrag ext4" (technically)
01:51 erlehmann regarding userfriendlyness: if i join minecraft servers, do they by now download all the mods? because they did not use to do that at some point
01:51 rubenwardy arguing isn't really helpful here
01:52 Philaire Well, I'm not arguing per se
01:52 erlehmann okay, i admit: i don't get the problem really
01:52 rubenwardy I meant erlehmann
01:52 Philaire my ph.d. was done on CS UX
01:52 erlehmann i'll wait for an elaboration.
01:52 erlehmann you win Philaire :D
01:52 Philaire and the problem I'm highlighting here is :
01:52 erlehmann but back to the mods thing
01:52 erlehmann maybe you have found some problem that needs to be fixed
01:52 erlehmann but no one will make 90k mods in an instant, that is unfixable
01:53 Philaire "If the user come to a program/problem with ideas about it and can't do it, then it's a bug if the features are present but not useable"
01:53 erlehmann i agree
01:53 Philaire Totally agree with you on the 90k mods.
01:53 Philaire One thing I like about MT is the ease of modding.
01:53 erlehmann yeah so what is the thing that you are looking for? because there exist several skyblock things not on contentdb afaik
01:53 fling joined #minetest
01:54 Philaire well, for example, if it's not on contentdb, where is it ?
01:54 erlehmann same as any other software, unclear! but you can look on github.com and git.minetest.land
01:54 erlehmann those are the things where i look
01:54 rubenwardy also the forums
01:54 rubenwardy the forums was the primary place to posts mods before CDB
01:54 erlehmann i left that out because the search engine already listed two forum topics
01:54 Philaire this is why I showed you CurseForge, it's basically a huge vitrine for all the mods
01:55 erlehmann well it's possible that it's not *all* the mods
01:55 rubenwardy that's what ContentDB is
01:55 rubenwardy ContentDB shows topics from the forums as well
01:55 erlehmann for example, i have made a bunch of mods and none of them are on contentdb bc i bad
01:55 erlehmann mineclonia is also not on contentdb
01:55 Philaire This was my guess, Ruben.
01:55 rubenwardy Well, ContentDB is designed such that all the packages are installable and useful
01:55 erlehmann it pays off to scour the forums, but a bunch of stuff will be out of date
01:55 Philaire Right, so I can yeet the "bad experience schtick" at Erlehmann from me :P
01:56 Philaire still
01:56 Philaire One suggestion that I'd would love to
01:56 erlehmann what is the bad experience here, that people are not publishing everything to contentdb? i am 100% sure that is the case for minecraft as well.
01:56 rubenwardy which means that not everything can be on CDB, and if it is on there it needs to be properly entered
01:56 erlehmann but yeah, i am guilty as charged and should put my stuff on cdb
01:56 erlehmann also client side mods are not on cdb
01:56 Philaire is that some of the very famous modpacks on MC should be ported to MT
01:57 erlehmann Philaire are you doing it? if its in the context of mcl2 or mineclonia, i'm happy to give advice
01:57 Philaire and as for not publishing everything on contentdb, sure, but we're facing 90k mods
01:57 Philaire well, I'd love to
01:57 erlehmann i mean, i have plans as well, but very little energy rn
01:57 erlehmann for example, chameleon creepers
01:57 erlehmann i wanna change creepers so that they match the grass palette
01:58 erlehmann it's easily doable because obv i just need to have some on_step function that changes this color
01:58 erlehmann and desaturate the creeper texture
01:58 erlehmann but i have not done it
01:58 Philaire since you're asking for ideas
01:58 Philaire that's why I was wondering about machines
01:58 lemonzest joined #minetest
01:58 erlehmann look at mesecons and technic
01:58 Philaire one mod I'm fond of in Minecraft is the MineFactoryReloaded
01:58 Philaire https://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/mapping-and-modding-java-edition/minecraft-mods/1292152-powercrystals-mods-minefactoryreloaded#mfr
01:58 erlehmann and pipeworks
01:59 erlehmann AFAIK pipeworks has abominations like “this pipe runs lua code to determine where the item goes”
01:59 erlehmann and mesecons has “microcontrollers” where you can enter lua code in game
01:59 Philaire Saw that earlier on.
02:00 MTDiscord <Jonathon> pipeworks should work in mcl now
02:01 erlehmann what had to be changed for taht?
02:01 MTDiscord <Jonathon> not much
02:01 MTDiscord <Jonathon> aka, stop being lazy and read the dif
02:01 erlehmann care to give me a link?
02:01 MTDiscord <Jonathon> and pipe your complaints to /dev/null
02:01 erlehmann this is relevant to my interests
02:02 erlehmann because i think mcl2 is totally going to break it lol
02:02 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i wouldnt be suprised
02:02 Philaire Second, and that's going to be basically the same criticism, main mods of MC have even wikis dedicated to it
02:02 Philaire so you know where to find the info
02:02 Philaire I googled "technic minetest mod", and I am getting contradictory sources
02:03 MTDiscord <Jonathon> there are two main versions, one is basically dead
02:04 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest-mods/technic and https://github.com/mt-mods/technic
02:04 Philaire (I'm tempted to complain that gitlab for pipeworks forces me to a Captcha, but I don't want to troll erlehmann :P  )
02:04 MTDiscord <Jonathon> pipeworks isnt on gitlab
02:04 Philaire https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/pipeworks/ ?
02:05 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://github.com/mt-mods/pipeworks
02:05 erlehmann well i googled "climate change" just now and it claimed to have 299 000 000 results. i then went to page 21 of search results and … upon calling their bluff, it says “page 21 of about 203 results”.
02:05 Philaire *grunting and groaning noises*
02:05 erlehmann you can repeat this for almost every search query. a random university library will give you more hits for some common queries :D
02:06 erlehmann back to pipeworks, i have no idea what the canonical repo is
02:06 erlehmann does something like a canonical repo even exist for stuff that is not on contentdb?
02:07 Philaire erlehmann : well, it would be nice to have something like a SRP for ContentDB.
02:07 erlehmann SRP?
02:07 MTDiscord <Jonathon> not like contentdb has a source link or anything erlehmann
02:07 Philaire Single Responsability Principle
02:07 erlehmann Philaire, please elaborate
02:07 Philaire like "put all things that are on a single authority"
02:07 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i wouldnt use srp in minetest circles, everyone will think you are talking about how it does passwords 😛
02:08 erlehmann i don't get it. if it's on contentdb, you have a canonical source link, like jonathon said
02:08 erlehmann if it's not on contentdb, here be dragons
02:08 erlehmann that's true for every single software
02:08 Philaire See, this time, it's my fault
02:08 erlehmann it's not anyone's fault
02:08 Philaire No, it's my fault, here
02:08 erlehmann it's obviously some systemic issue
02:09 erlehmann what was your fault exactly?
02:09 Philaire I didn't think you could browse mods easily on ContentDB
02:09 Philaire so I used google primarily
02:09 Philaire this being said,
02:09 Philaire now,
02:09 erlehmann okay, i agree. google is really bad as a search engine lately.
02:09 Philaire if I type "pipeworks" I'm effectively on the right track
02:09 Philaire and I can see the good repo on github
02:09 erlehmann i have written software myself and some articles about obscure topics
02:10 erlehmann and in the past, google found that software and also the articles
02:10 erlehmann nowadays, it only finds pages that *link* to that software or those articles
02:10 Philaire except we're not speaking 'bout google
02:10 Philaire but "what is the correct way to use and find mods for MT"
02:10 erlehmann which is hilarious, because according to my understanding of pagerank, if the top 10 search results all link to the same page maybe that should be the top result instead?
02:10 erlehmann the correct way is to use the ingame mod browser or the contentdb website
02:11 erlehmann if that fails, go to the forums, as rubenwardy said
02:11 Philaire which is why I was saying it was my fault
02:11 erlehmann next, search github / gitlab / git.minetest.land
02:11 Philaire since I did google first
02:11 MTDiscord <Jonathon> use cdb, if its not there, use the forums, if not there, use google for a git host link
02:11 Philaire then cdb last
02:11 Philaire this being said now
02:11 erlehmann as i said, google has become hilariously bad in finding obscure information lately
02:11 Philaire I'd be willing to port some nice mods from MC to MT
02:12 erlehmann and minetest mods not on cdb or forums are likely to be obscure
02:12 erlehmann Philaire, cool, which ones?
02:12 Philaire well, I'm not sure
02:12 erlehmann Philaire i am interested!
02:12 Philaire depends on how hard it is
02:12 erlehmann if you can contribute stuff to mineclone2 or mineclonia i'd be interested too.
02:12 Philaire same answer
02:12 erlehmann because basically, if you rely on minecraft style of API and know it well, you might be able to give good advice
02:12 Philaire no
02:13 erlehmann for how to structure it so that minecraft mods are easy to port
02:13 Philaire not a good advice
02:13 erlehmann oh okay
02:13 Philaire for even if  I knew it sufficiently
02:13 Philaire architecture either stinks
02:13 Philaire either is different from MT
02:13 erlehmann are you saying the mc API is bullshit
02:13 Philaire no
02:13 erlehmann ok
02:13 Philaire officially, there's no API
02:13 erlehmann okay, yeah i get it
02:13 erlehmann there are prob a few different mod loaders
02:13 Philaire I'm saying that the code is ugly
02:13 erlehmann that patch the binary?
02:14 erlehmann or do a reflection dance
02:14 Philaire but that the mod loaders authors are doing amazing work
02:14 Philaire given how MC works
02:14 Philaire still, putting a cherry ontop of a sh**cake doesn't make the whole slice tasty
02:14 erlehmann sheesecake
02:14 erlehmann rather peculiar spelling
02:14 erlehmann :D
02:15 Philaire two letters too much :P
02:15 Philaire But still
02:15 erlehmann could you port agatha rose's asbestos mod?
02:15 Philaire I teach Java to my students
02:15 Philaire meaning I can't use MT as a teaching source
02:15 erlehmann well, that's probably better than teaching them lua lol
02:15 erlehmann lua is an absolute pain of a language
02:15 Philaire otherwise, "port mod X to MT" would be a recurring assignment
02:15 erlehmann you are one typo away from a nil error at any time
02:16 erlehmann Philaire can it not be one? because they'd figure out how to port apps from java
02:17 Philaire I can't ask them to code in Lua
02:17 erlehmann i mean, bad coders can write PHP in any language, but for creating blueprints etc.
02:17 erlehmann yeah but you could ask them to figure out how to do the same thing in another programming paradigm?
02:17 Philaire no, I can't
02:17 erlehmann oh okay
02:17 Philaire I've already danced around the question, y'know
02:17 erlehmann well, maybe you can ask them to improve amidst :D
02:17 erlehmann are you asking for java bindings for minetest
02:18 Philaire "java bindings for minetest"
02:18 erlehmann so you are?
02:18 Philaire I take "worse idea than putting a fork in an electric socket for $10,00"
02:18 erlehmann well, i'm not paying you for either
02:19 Philaire that's a joke, mate ;)
02:19 Philaire jeopardy reference
02:19 erlehmann i see
02:19 Philaire you know what jeopardy is ? :)
02:19 erlehmann well, they don't use dollars in france anyway, right?
02:19 Philaire nah, we don't
02:19 erlehmann great, i have a question for you though
02:19 Philaire ask ahead
02:20 Philaire then I hit bed asap
02:20 Philaire it's 3.20
02:20 erlehmann is it really a domestic flight to the ESA country in south america, french guyana?
02:20 erlehmann i'm in germany, it's the same time here
02:20 erlehmann like, can i, as a european union citizen, visit the rainforest?
02:20 Philaire I need to wake up at 7.15
02:20 erlehmann uh-oh
02:20 erlehmann if it is part of france proper, that's probably a cool holiday (if it's not too expensive, which i fear it may be)
02:21 Philaire well
02:21 erlehmann like if they use eurodollars
02:21 Philaire to answer you
02:21 erlehmann and you can see the space launcher and the rainforests
02:21 Philaire visiting FG
02:21 Philaire that only requires a passport or an ID card
02:21 Philaire since you're from EU
02:21 Philaire and it's effectively EU terr
02:22 erlehmann customs or weird border police shenanigans? or like entering any other EU country?
02:22 erlehmann i.e. they only check your ID (and only if they are interested)
02:22 Philaire it's a French region
02:22 erlehmann yeah, but EU territories out of europe are super weird regulation wise
02:22 erlehmann that is why i am asking
02:22 Philaire outside of that
02:22 Philaire I have no clue
02:23 Philaire my domain is CS
02:23 Philaire not Geo/Pol
02:23 erlehmann well, i thought maybe it got taught in geography class or so ^^
02:23 erlehmann i mean germany doesn't really have colonies
02:24 erlehmann so we never learn about anything like that
02:24 erlehmann i was surprised that it's a part of france proper even
02:24 erlehmann i just knew it as the place where the ariane rockets start
02:24 erlehmann Philaire where is your thesis hosted?
02:24 erlehmann could i look into it?
02:24 Philaire sure
02:24 Philaire but later
02:24 erlehmann no hurries
02:24 Philaire i'm falling alseep
02:24 erlehmann just text me
02:24 erlehmann and go sleep
02:24 erlehmann good night!
02:25 Philaire one last thing
02:25 Philaire is there a discord MT?
02:25 erlehmann somehow a discord is linked to this channel
02:25 erlehmann but i have no idea why
02:25 erlehmann if you are already using discord, it could make sense to use the bridge
02:26 Philaire head out, then
02:26 Philaire ninight
02:26 erlehmann but AFAIK IRC is the medium of choice for most stuff
02:26 erlehmann !tell Philaire https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord
02:26 MinetestBot erlehmann: I'll pass that on when Philaire is around
02:27 erlehmann i find the “edit any person's message, with no permissions needed, by sending a custom API request” thing the most damning there
02:27 erlehmann > Given the severity of this bug, and that Discord operates a bug bounty program, you'd think there would be a sweet reward for this. In fact, the person who discovered it got a couple of codes for premium subscriptions.
02:27 erlehmann ^^
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02:32 GreenXenith !tell Philaire Dont let other people tell you what platforms are "good or not", use what you are comfortable with. You can join our active official Discord server at https://discord.gg/minetest :)
02:32 MinetestBot GreenXenith: yeah, yeah
02:34 erlehmann it doesn't actually say “do not use discord”
02:34 erlehmann (the blog post is from a person actually using discord)
02:39 rubenwardy I don't trust computers yet I still use them
02:43 erlehmann look, i am sending everyone who mentions discord that link so they can make an informed decision.
02:44 wsor cough discord
02:45 erlehmann and cadence isn't just anyone
02:45 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> would you like me to give you a link about why IRC is antiquated every time you mention IRC?
02:47 erlehmann if there were comparable problems, yes. when i suggest any chat service to anyone, i give them a rundown of the issues.
02:47 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Thats great man, but presumably if someone asks about Discord, theyve already made the choice to use Discord.
02:48 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> You arent the one suggesting they use Discord, so according to what youve just said, you dont need to try to convince them of anything
02:48 erlehmann maybe i am mistaken, but if the discord thing sees the exact same thing as this channel, then isn't it relevant what the drawbacks are?
02:48 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> If someone asks for the Minetest IRC I dont say "there is one but you should use Discord", I give them the channel names and point to the bridge
02:49 rubenwardy 😒
02:49 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> So quit interjecting your opinion about Discord into our lives when all people want is the invite link
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02:50 erlehmann i guess if i stop pointing out the drawbacks of every single thing that is mentioned then to not upset you?
02:50 erlehmann i'll ask Philaire if it was unnecessary noise once that person comes back
02:50 erlehmann if yes, it convinces me that i should stop doing it for discord at least
02:51 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I think a lot of people would be relieved if you stopped pointing out a lot of things
02:51 erlehmann ok?
02:51 erlehmann yeah, but i am pretty sure my habit of reflexively pointing out negative things is at the core of it
02:51 erlehmann or not?
02:53 MTDiscord <Jonathon> quote from yesterday > i am a dumbo and should be quiet
02:53 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Discovering the root of bad habits sounds like a personal journey. All I want is for you to stop waving a protest sign every time someone mentions Discord.
02:54 erlehmann what i'm saying is, it's not discord-specific
02:54 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> If you say so
02:55 erlehmann i mean my answer to “wuold you like if i point out why IRC is antiquated” query is “yeah, go ahead”
02:55 rubenwardy my answer is please stop
02:55 erlehmann ok!
02:56 erlehmann GreenXenith, actually, do you have an “why IRC sucks” article on hand? i could actually use that. not to spam it when IRC is mentioned, but when people ask “should we use IRC?” when a group is constituting itself.
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02:56 erlehmann i'm sorry for annoying you :/
02:57 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Your probably annoying ruben more at this point
02:57 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> youre*
02:57 rubenwardy he's pinged me 6 times today
02:57 rubenwardy jokes
02:58 erlehmann oof?
02:58 erlehmann you mean highlighted?
02:58 erlehmann or like /ping
02:59 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> and no I dont have an article for that on hand because no one wants to waste their time on that sort of thing I guess
02:59 erlehmann uh, oh
02:59 erlehmann well then stop asking such questions if you can't handle a “yes, go ahead”
02:59 erlehmann regardless, good night
02:59 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> what questions?
02:59 rubenwardy Discord users are too busy in school to make an article
03:00 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Thank you for your contribution rubenwardy 😒
03:00 erlehmann rubenwardy you definitely win the flaming contest here ^^
03:00 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Oh, the "would you like" question
03:00 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Hypotheticals are such a novel concept arent they
03:00 erlehmann oh, my mistake then
03:01 erlehmann i thought it was more like … a threat
03:01 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Haha, no
03:01 rubenwardy one thing we can agree on is that discord is a source of discord
03:01 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> The point of the question was to say "doing this is annoying and kinda rude to anyone that asks or uses it, I wouldnt want me to do it or have it done to me"
03:02 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> <insert gathering place of people here> is a source of discord
03:02 erlehmann GreenXenith, another thing then, you said you were working on some thing that was much better than the poorly cobbled together node entity thing that cora and me had resurrected. is it done by now?
03:02 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> https://github.com/GreenXenith/lvae/ ?
03:02 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> youve asked this before
03:02 erlehmann GreenXenith i would very much like it if you said that directly next time i am behaving in a way that you find annoying
03:02 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Fair enough
03:02 erlehmann yeah but you suggested that it would be improved somehow
03:03 erlehmann if i understand it correctly, this is just the API?
03:03 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Thats all its intended to be
03:03 erlehmann okay, so are there any mods using it?
03:03 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Unlikely, its not a commonly needed thing
03:03 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> And I dont really advertise it
03:03 erlehmann oh, why did you make it then, if not for a mod that might use it?
03:04 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Because I want to use it for my own mods
03:04 erlehmann but you did not, yet? or are they not public?
03:04 erlehmann i mean you are right about meshnode, it supports only very basic stuff
03:04 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> And are you seriously asking me why I made something? Me? Who makes random mods like hexagons and circular hotbars just for fun?
03:04 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> ;p
03:04 erlehmann oh yeah, i forgot who i am talking to
03:04 rubenwardy kinf of concept
03:05 MTDiscord <Jonathon> pro tip, if you want something fast from green, tell them that it cant be done, and to prove you wrong with a proof of concept
03:05 erlehmann but basically what i wanted to know is if the “one will be released in the near future” thing is still true
03:05 erlehmann oh, that's funny
03:05 erlehmann GreenXenith i think it's impossible to actually have minecarts with inventories in mineclone2
03:05 erlehmann (that was too specific, was it?)
03:06 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I think he meant things that most people agree cant be done
03:06 erlehmann GreenXenith, if there is something half-finished, i'd like to see it, even if it's not on contentdb.
03:06 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> entities with inventories is a solved problem
03:06 erlehmann oh, hmm, wait then
03:08 erlehmann i bet it is impossible to have a game in which gravity goes multiple ways (orbital dynamics etc.)(
03:08 erlehmann i mean
03:08 erlehmann that's a stupid idea
03:08 MTDiscord <MisterE> erl: check out the https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=22464 mod, i believe that is cart with invs
03:08 erlehmann because we all know how to do this
03:08 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I dont recall saying such a mod would be released "soon", but lets say I did: The mod I built lvae for doesnt exist in a state which uses lvae
03:08 erlehmann thanks MisterE
03:08 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> LVAE was originally built as a mod to make ships, and it existed in a functioning state, and Ive already shown you what it looked like
03:08 erlehmann the repo literally said “LVAE can be used to make a similar mod (and one will be released in the near future).”
03:09 erlehmann but i get it, you are not done
03:09 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Oh, touche`
03:09 erlehmann yeah
03:09 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> That was a lie then, retroactively
03:09 erlehmann so that's the only thing i am asking about
03:09 erlehmann it's not to annoy you
03:09 erlehmann just because i thought you were maybe still working on it
03:09 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> thats the sort of thing I could probably glue together in under an hour
03:10 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> or you could, you know ;p
03:10 MTDiscord <MisterE> promises, promises 😛 these projects have a way to scaling in the time axis
03:10 MTDiscord <MisterE> *of
03:10 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> at least lvae exists
03:10 erlehmann well, i have no idea how
03:10 erlehmann yeah, but a functioning meshnode thing for mcl2 exists too
03:10 erlehmann and it took me and cora many hours for it
03:11 erlehmann just to make meshnode handle some stuff
03:11 erlehmann that it could not before
03:11 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> lvae took me 3 years to make
03:11 erlehmann and not make holes in bedrock lol
03:11 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> x)
03:11 erlehmann what i am saying: i would be very bad at using LVAE
03:11 erlehmann GreenXenith, proof of concept wise, do you know any orbital mechanics mod?
03:11 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> what exactly do you want from the mod? The "near future" mod it refers to is one to make ships
03:11 erlehmann like runge kutta integration gravity stuff
03:11 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I dont think anyone has messed with very advanced physics in Minetest much, due to engine limitations
03:12 erlehmann ships and possibly airships
03:12 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> ok, just making sure
03:12 erlehmann the thing is, i have a very simple dea
03:12 erlehmann idea
03:12 erlehmann 1. wooden stuff gives buyoancy
03:12 erlehmann in water
03:12 erlehmann 2. wool gives buyoancy in air
03:13 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I kinda hate the meshnode method of sticking blocks together so I might use that old airship mod method and use a special platform to build from
03:13 erlehmann 3. some sort of control node that you can place
03:13 erlehmann the meshnode thing is really tedious
03:13 erlehmann what is the airship mod method? flood fill but dou stop at the “special platform” ?
03:13 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I believe so
03:13 erlehmann you
03:13 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> my original shipmaker mod did that but with water instead (flood fill but stop at water)
03:14 erlehmann well that could get ugly if someone puts the controller on the ground lol
03:14 erlehmann so what did it do when someone put it on a mountain?
03:14 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> if the controller is on the ground then it isnt on the platform now is it
03:14 erlehmann or on the coast
03:14 erlehmann uh, maybe explain the platform thing more
03:14 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I would if I could remember it better
03:14 erlehmann could you give me just a link to your shipmaker mod?
03:14 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I used it like once a long time ago
03:14 erlehmann so can try it
03:15 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> no, the shipmaker mod was what lvae was in the beginning
03:15 erlehmann ah!
03:15 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> before I turned it into a general purpose Voxel Area Entity mod
03:15 erlehmann well, the problem “someone puts a bug ball of wool on a mountain and flies away with it” is kinda funny
03:15 erlehmann maybe it is not meant to be solved
03:15 erlehmann because then people can steal other people's bases
03:15 erlehmann :D
03:15 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I was making all these custom entity nodes and realized "hey this would be useful as an API"
03:15 erlehmann bug → big
03:15 erlehmann yeah obv
03:16 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> the airship mod I was thinking of: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=6184
03:16 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> 9 years old :^)
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03:17 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> It had some stricter rules on what you could use to build with
03:17 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I originally just had an arbitrary size limit and non-usable nodes, that may just be the best way to do it
03:18 erlehmann well, in mcl_meshnode we decided to have the meshnode method of gluing, but you could not glue bedrock or so to it
03:18 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> must be <=n amount of nodes, where air, water, and some special support nodes arent flood filled
03:18 erlehmann and i think we may have had extra handling of entity nodes
03:18 erlehmann that isn't really good
03:19 erlehmann how are you handling nodes like mcl chests or double chests or crystals in LVAE?
03:19 erlehmann (not at all?)
03:20 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Entities are obviously not nodes so lvae doesnt care about them. Theoretically if node callbacks are implemented then custom entity nodes could be supported but thats not a priority
03:20 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Even with a real Voxel Area Entity system you would have the same issue
03:21 erlehmann yes
03:21 erlehmann that is why i am asking
03:21 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> so your custom handling is a necessity anyway
03:21 erlehmann chests in mcl games can be nodes or entities
03:21 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> you could still do custom handling with lvae though
03:21 erlehmann and i wonder what would be the best way to support mods such as LVAE
03:22 erlehmann like, maybe write the entity in meta somehow? but what to write?
03:22 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> 🤷
03:23 erlehmann okay lol
03:23 erlehmann ^^
03:23 erlehmann i mean, ultimately, i think the engine should support some nodetype where this shenanigans are not needed
03:23 erlehmann but unclear to me how
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20:44 luizsab hello. When I dig a aple tree the apples are floating in the air, is it normal?
20:47 MTDiscord <savilli> hi
20:47 MTDiscord <savilli> do you play MTG?
20:49 gh00p luizsab, only some blocks will fall if you dig underneath them, like sand or gravel. Most other blocks will stay floating if you undermine them.
20:54 luizsab gh00p but leaves falls I was thinking the apples will be with the same behavior
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21:01 gh00p luizsab, leaves fall because trees need wood to support them, but you can *place* leaves and remove what's under them and they will stay.
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21:08 luizsab that's strange apples floating when there's no more tree
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22:25 MTDiscord <MisterE> could someone carefully explain the basics of lua mapgen to me?
22:27 sfan5 you make sure the engine mapgen is set to singlenode and then register a on_generated callback which should generate the world inside the minpos, maxpos it was given
22:27 sfan5 were these the basics you were hoping for?
22:28 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i used https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=6396 to understand the basics, since its not really optimized, etc. once you understand that, paramat has a basic mapgen thats been optimized
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22:29 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&amp;t=19836 <paramats
22:38 MTDiscord <MisterE> sorry, I was afk, im back now
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22:39 MTDiscord <MisterE> sfan5, I got that much, but how to do it exactly is where I have trouble. Looking at Jonathan's post...
22:41 MTDiscord <MisterE> @school of hard knocks, Inc so I started with paramat's, and its a bit confusing
22:41 MTDiscord <MisterE> I will start with the first onw
22:41 MTDiscord <Jonathon> so....user error
22:42 MTDiscord <MisterE> 😛
22:43 sfan5 well you literally have to decide about every single node
22:44 sfan5 if you want to generate terrain that is reminiscent of MTs v7 then yes paramat's example is right for you
22:44 sfan5 if you want to fill half the world with stone and the other half with air then not so much
22:45 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^ https://content.minetest.net/packages/?q=superflat both of these are good for that
22:46 MTDiscord <Jonathon> rdococ being the one to start with
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23:00 MTDiscord <MisterE> local a = VoxelArea:new{         MinEdge={x=emin.x, y=emin.y, z=emin.z},         MaxEdge={x=emax.x, y=emax.y, z=emax.z},     }
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23:00 MTDiscord <MisterE> why not just have MinEdge = emin?
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23:08 MTDiscord <MisterE> could someone explain this:  lua local nvals = noise:get3dMap_flat({x=minp.x, y=minp.y, z=minp.z})       local ni = 1     for z = minp.z, maxp.z do     for y = minp.y, maxp.y do     for x = minp.x, maxp.x do         if nvals[ni] - (y - 25) / 55 > 0.5 then             local vi = a:index(x, y, z)             if y < 1 then                 data[vi] = c_dirt             else                 data[vi] = c_grass             end         elseif y <
23:08 MTDiscord 1 then             local vi = a:index(x, y, z)             data[vi] = c_water         end         ni = ni + 1     end     end     end
23:09 MTDiscord <MisterE> specifically the following questions:
23:09 MTDiscord <MisterE> what is ni?
23:09 MTDiscord <MisterE> if nvals[ni] - (y - 25) / 55 > 0.5 then
23:09 MTDiscord <MisterE> and what does that do?
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23:11 MTDiscord <Jonathon> this is a irc channel, use a pastebin
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23:30 MTDiscord <MisterE> got it
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23:33 erlehmann mister, this is a wendy's
23:35 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> ni stands for noise index, the index into the table of values from the 3d perlin noise map
23:36 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> the equation I think is pretty arbitrary, it determines if a block should go there based on the noise value
23:37 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> paramats example has a simpler version with a better explanation about density or something
23:38 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> its also a pretty lame way to calculate where to put grass 🤔
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23:41 MinetestBot Philaire: Mar-20 02:26 UTC <erlehmann> https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord
23:41 MinetestBot Philaire: Mar-20 02:32 UTC <GreenXenith> Dont let other people tell you what platforms are "good or not", use what you are comfortable with. You can join our active official Discord server at https://discord.gg/minetest :)
23:58 MTDiscord <MisterE> ok, I understand the voxel manipulator, (i got rid of the noise) now to tackle noise
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