Time Nick Message 00:32 MTDiscord Wait for sfan5 to appear, he can help you, likely 00:32 erlehmann Philaire ok so rebuilds are not possible basically 00:32 erlehmann Philaire the reason is that minetest uses cmake and make, which are both really bad at dependency tracking for incremental builds. 00:33 erlehmann Philaire you absolutely HAVE to make a clean build every time, otherwise, even if it compiles, your binary may not correspond to the source code. 00:35 erlehmann Philaire https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11749 00:36 erlehmann Philaire so yeah, make an entirely clean checkout, then a clean bild. 00:36 erlehmann build 00:39 MTDiscord is he still there? 00:44 erlehmann MisterE, yes, you can look in the list of channel users 00:45 MTDiscord I'm in discord, no I cant 00:45 MTDiscord Without logging in to irc that is 01:01 Philaire Still here 01:01 Philaire managed to downgrade the whole packages 01:01 Philaire for good 01:02 Philaire and strangely, lag vanished :/ 01:02 Philaire which makes me wonder 01:03 Philaire what the h*** happened from 5.4.1 to 5.5.0 ? :/ 01:04 erlehmann a lot 01:04 erlehmann Philaire to make it more FUN, it is very hard to bisect issues :D 01:04 Philaire Network-wise, I mean. :P 01:05 erlehmann that's a question best asked to sfan5 01:06 Philaire What's confusing is that MineClone2 works with 5.4.1 better too 01:08 Philaire ... why would I need to update to 5.5.0, then ? 01:08 erlehmann Philaire better in what way? 01:08 Philaire Lag-wise and desync-wise. 01:09 erlehmann curious 01:10 erlehmann Philaire file an issue about that on the mineclone2 issue tracker please: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/issues 01:10 Philaire How so? 01:11 Philaire I mean, the bug is clearly linked to MT rather than one of its games 01:14 erlehmann Philaire it might be avoidable to trigger it from mineclone2, if we know how 01:14 Philaire You're a MC2 dev ? :) 01:15 erlehmann Philaire i have contributed performance and stability fixes to it, either directly or via mineclonia. https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/Mineclonia 01:15 Philaire Another MC clone ? 01:17 erlehmann TL;DR: mineclone2 0.71 was horrible performance-wise, so cora, me and some other people forked from it. turns out that a) it is possible to apply a strict testing and review regime to software to make new features not contain new mistakes b) people absolute hate doing that work and constantly complain about it being “too slow”. 01:18 Philaire What would be useful to post along the issue ? 01:18 erlehmann so recently, mineclone2 needed a new maintainer, and cora took over. now there is mineclone2 0.72 which is between mineclonia and mineclone5 in terms of features (mineclone5 is the random spaghetti bleeding edge stuff, avoid it if you want a long-term world, try it if you like your new features also bringing new bugs). 01:19 erlehmann basically, i want to know if mineclonia triggers the bug 01:19 erlehmann because if it does not, it is some new feature that does it 01:19 erlehmann uh, does mineclone2 have an issue template yet? 01:20 erlehmann just post everything that could possibly help. operating system, hardware, ideally: how to reprouduce this. 01:20 Philaire Well, so far, I can tell you that I had this problem already six months ago when I first stumbled upon Minetest. 01:20 erlehmann which version of mineclone2 and minetest did you use 01:20 erlehmann down to the commit hashes 01:20 erlehmann CPU architecture ofc 01:20 Philaire Hence why I didn't try it for longer. 01:20 erlehmann how you built minetest, like compile flags 01:21 erlehmann i have encountered a lot of problems but never this one 01:21 erlehmann i mean, minetest has like over 1000 open issues 01:21 erlehmann so my question is: have you opened a *minetest* issue already? 01:21 Philaire Not yet. 01:21 erlehmann do that first 01:21 Philaire Again, I'm trying to see if it's *me* who's doing things wrong first 01:22 Philaire then b) I have to wait until I'm home 01:22 erlehmann sfan5 will close your issue in 20 minutes if you do anything even remotely like that 01:22 erlehmann doesn't pull punches lol 01:22 Philaire It's 2.23 AM and I'm not home 01:23 Philaire have nothing to properly make an issue 01:23 Philaire so I'll do it tomorrow evening 01:23 erlehmann also there are several bugs in minetest that were not fixed by mcl2 or mcla or mcl5 devs but we found them and did debugging work and made workarounds 01:23 Philaire but should I post it as MT or MC2? 01:23 erlehmann two things 01:23 erlehmann first post about your general problems to minetest issue tracker 01:24 erlehmann then figure out if anything in mineclone2 triggers the minetest behavior. there is some stuff that games should just avoid, like spawning too many particles. 01:25 erlehmann like, honestly, mineclone2 0.71 makes you lag if you wear enchanted armor 01:25 erlehmann because the armor has too much metadata 01:25 Philaire ... how comes a C++ game for lowends can lag? :/ 01:26 erlehmann easy 01:26 erlehmann first, minetest engine is a group work that has 10 years of history 01:27 erlehmann second, no super designed API will help you when some game, for example, spawns 1000 independent entities that are all updated in every frame or so 01:27 erlehmann the network traffic alone for that can not be optimized away 01:28 erlehmann Philaire easy test: use /forceenchant command to make a sword that is enchanted to make a lot of damage 01:28 erlehmann in mineclone2 there are black hearts spawned for the damage 01:28 erlehmann sooooo 01:28 erlehmann hit someone with a 32k sword and boom lag 01:29 Philaire I'll try it tomorrow. 01:29 erlehmann in this case, because particle rendering in minetest has been cursed for a long time (and it is not easy to replace with the irrlicht particle rendering apparently) 01:29 Philaire For now, I'm seeking if something similar to "SkyFactory" modpack exists... ^^' 01:29 Philaire (am on phone) 01:29 erlehmann what is that doing? 01:30 Philaire Basically 01:30 erlehmann but like, mineclone2 0.71 and minetest_game were sending HUD flags way too often 01:30 erlehmann that also causes traffic 01:30 Philaire skyblock + machines in Minecraft 01:30 Philaire https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/modpacks/skyfactory-4 01:31 erlehmann AFAIK there are at least three basic machinery options you can have in minetest: mesecons (redstone in mineclone2 is modified mesecons), whatever nodecore does, mech (which is used in “inside the box”) 01:32 erlehmann mesecons is by far the most popular 01:32 Philaire I'm used to the Minecraft Forge API 01:33 erlehmann no idea what forge is 01:33 erlehmann could you elaborate? 01:33 Philaire Sure 01:33 Philaire basically 01:33 Philaire Minecraft is in Java, with a (very) bad code structure (IMHO). 01:34 Philaire As modding is not possible, some genius devs have made a kind of layer to mod it. 01:35 Philaire This is called Minecraft Forge. 01:35 Philaire Basically, it modifies the .jar and adds a modding api. 01:36 Philaire But it works 01:36 Philaire and since something which works isn't stupid 01:36 Philaire it's a somewhat non stupid idea. 01:37 erlehmann ah 01:37 erlehmann minetest is much better in terms of mods 01:37 Philaire Main dev of forge (if not the only one) is LexManos 01:37 erlehmann like MUCH better 01:37 Philaire I know :P 01:38 Philaire but it lacks fame and acceptability 01:38 Philaire or diversity 01:38 erlehmann ok so i suggest to open a minetest issue 01:38 erlehmann diversity? 01:38 Philaire in the way that Minecraft is 01:38 Philaire perhaps not "diversity" 01:38 Philaire more like... 01:38 Philaire ... 01:39 Philaire ...well, it's mostly on reputation, still, but people are much aware of Minecraft 01:39 erlehmann yes obviously 01:39 erlehmann so? 01:39 Philaire there are many launchers or modpacks in Minecraft 01:39 erlehmann there are more mods than you can reasonably try yourself for minetest already 01:39 erlehmann and so many games that you can play for months and still not get bored 01:40 Philaire ah, I don't disagree with that 01:40 erlehmann i don't really see what you are missing 01:40 Philaire the "packaging" or "advertisement"? 01:40 erlehmann besides, say, API stability 01:40 erlehmann not again 01:40 Philaire https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/ 01:40 Philaire for example 01:40 Philaire There is contentdb 01:40 erlehmann that page is not very userfriendly 01:40 erlehmann it says 01:40 erlehmann > Please complete the security check to access www.curseforge.com 01:41 erlehmann > Why do I have to complete a CAPTCHA? 01:41 erlehmann this is total crap sorry 01:41 erlehmann i have made websites for a living and i would NEVER show anyone a captcha for readonly access 01:41 erlehmann please give me a better example than this 01:41 erlehmann i am not completing that captcha 01:42 Philaire ... 01:42 Philaire ...that's not curseforge 01:42 Philaire that's CloudFlare DDoS protection 01:42 erlehmann you want a screenshot? 01:43 erlehmann look, i am going to that website and it's HTTPS. so it can ONLY be the one who ultimately controls the website who is showing me that. or my system is borked. 01:43 Philaire No, because I'm not disbelieving you 01:43 erlehmann if you say, oh, but they delegated that to cloudflare, well, i don't care. the end user experience is total crap already. 01:43 rubenwardy are you using Tor? 01:43 erlehmann no 01:43 erlehmann i am using the same connection that i always use 01:44 erlehmann with current firefox 01:44 erlehmann on a debian system 01:44 Philaire well, I can say that I have no Captcha and claim to have a nice user experience 01:44 erlehmann regardless, this is absolutely unforgivable 01:44 Philaire but that's not valid for the discussion 01:44 erlehmann okay, so what *did* you want to discuss? 01:44 erlehmann i mean http://www.minetest.net/ is not good enough for you? 01:45 Philaire calm down 01:45 Philaire no need to attack me 01:45 Philaire I'm from a MC background 01:45 Philaire and trying to switch for MT 01:45 erlehmann rubenwardy, btw i think on http://www.minetest.net/ there should be “contentDB” changed to “get mods” or something more descriptive. what do you think? 01:45 erlehmann or browse mods 01:45 Philaire for example 01:46 Philaire ContentDB is "only" 1200 mods 01:46 Philaire Curseforge lists ... 99159 mods. 01:46 Philaire (for minecraft) 01:46 erlehmann Philaire, oh i am not angry. i just wanted to use the strongest possible language to reflect my absolute disdain for this practie of showing captcha for readonly access. 01:47 erlehmann regardless 01:47 erlehmann what difference does it make how many mods are there? is there something missing? 01:47 Philaire Well, in terms of diversity of mods. 01:47 erlehmann not necessarily true 01:48 Philaire ... let me put it in your words, then :P 01:48 Philaire You're complaining for a captcha that prevents you from browsing a website : bad experience for you. 01:49 erlehmann show me a single mod for minecraft in which you can build as high as minetest :P 01:49 erlehmann not sure if anything of this is your thing https://content.minetest.net/packages/?q=skyblock 01:49 Philaire I'm mentionning that the usual mods I'm using fails to find an equivalent for Minetest, either due to a small number of mods on ContentDB or... well, is there some other place I can gather mods ? 01:50 erlehmann yeah, but this complaint is like complaining that there is no defrag program for linux filesystem 01:50 Philaire Well, this would be my thing... but all mods mention "this is for NodeCore only", for example. 01:50 erlehmann minetest is not an equivalent of minecraft 01:50 Philaire And I have no clue what NodeCore is (for example). 01:50 erlehmann a game 01:51 erlehmann so you install nodecore and then the mod 01:51 Philaire And the correct answer to such a  complaint would be "you don't need to defrag ext4" (technically) 01:51 erlehmann regarding userfriendlyness: if i join minecraft servers, do they by now download all the mods? because they did not use to do that at some point 01:51 rubenwardy arguing isn't really helpful here 01:52 Philaire Well, I'm not arguing per se 01:52 erlehmann okay, i admit: i don't get the problem really 01:52 rubenwardy I meant erlehmann 01:52 Philaire my ph.d. was done on CS UX 01:52 erlehmann i'll wait for an elaboration. 01:52 erlehmann you win Philaire :D 01:52 Philaire and the problem I'm highlighting here is : 01:52 erlehmann but back to the mods thing 01:52 erlehmann maybe you have found some problem that needs to be fixed 01:52 erlehmann but no one will make 90k mods in an instant, that is unfixable 01:53 Philaire "If the user come to a program/problem with ideas about it and can't do it, then it's a bug if the features are present but not useable" 01:53 erlehmann i agree 01:53 Philaire Totally agree with you on the 90k mods. 01:53 Philaire One thing I like about MT is the ease of modding. 01:53 erlehmann yeah so what is the thing that you are looking for? because there exist several skyblock things not on contentdb afaik 01:54 Philaire well, for example, if it's not on contentdb, where is it ? 01:54 erlehmann same as any other software, unclear! but you can look on github.com and git.minetest.land 01:54 erlehmann those are the things where i look 01:54 rubenwardy also the forums 01:54 rubenwardy the forums was the primary place to posts mods before CDB 01:54 erlehmann i left that out because the search engine already listed two forum topics 01:54 Philaire this is why I showed you CurseForge, it's basically a huge vitrine for all the mods 01:55 erlehmann well it's possible that it's not *all* the mods 01:55 rubenwardy that's what ContentDB is 01:55 rubenwardy ContentDB shows topics from the forums as well 01:55 erlehmann for example, i have made a bunch of mods and none of them are on contentdb bc i bad 01:55 erlehmann mineclonia is also not on contentdb 01:55 Philaire This was my guess, Ruben. 01:55 rubenwardy Well, ContentDB is designed such that all the packages are installable and useful 01:55 erlehmann it pays off to scour the forums, but a bunch of stuff will be out of date 01:55 Philaire Right, so I can yeet the "bad experience schtick" at Erlehmann from me :P 01:56 Philaire still 01:56 Philaire One suggestion that I'd would love to 01:56 erlehmann what is the bad experience here, that people are not publishing everything to contentdb? i am 100% sure that is the case for minecraft as well. 01:56 rubenwardy which means that not everything can be on CDB, and if it is on there it needs to be properly entered 01:56 erlehmann but yeah, i am guilty as charged and should put my stuff on cdb 01:56 erlehmann also client side mods are not on cdb 01:56 Philaire is that some of the very famous modpacks on MC should be ported to MT 01:57 erlehmann Philaire are you doing it? if its in the context of mcl2 or mineclonia, i'm happy to give advice 01:57 Philaire and as for not publishing everything on contentdb, sure, but we're facing 90k mods 01:57 Philaire well, I'd love to 01:57 erlehmann i mean, i have plans as well, but very little energy rn 01:57 erlehmann for example, chameleon creepers 01:57 erlehmann i wanna change creepers so that they match the grass palette 01:58 erlehmann it's easily doable because obv i just need to have some on_step function that changes this color 01:58 erlehmann and desaturate the creeper texture 01:58 erlehmann but i have not done it 01:58 Philaire since you're asking for ideas 01:58 Philaire that's why I was wondering about machines 01:58 erlehmann look at mesecons and technic 01:58 Philaire one mod I'm fond of in Minecraft is the MineFactoryReloaded 01:58 Philaire https://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/mapping-and-modding-java-edition/minecraft-mods/1292152-powercrystals-mods-minefactoryreloaded#mfr 01:58 erlehmann and pipeworks 01:59 erlehmann AFAIK pipeworks has abominations like “this pipe runs lua code to determine where the item goes” 01:59 erlehmann and mesecons has “microcontrollers” where you can enter lua code in game 01:59 Philaire Saw that earlier on. 02:00 MTDiscord pipeworks should work in mcl now 02:01 erlehmann what had to be changed for taht? 02:01 MTDiscord not much 02:01 MTDiscord aka, stop being lazy and read the dif 02:01 erlehmann care to give me a link? 02:01 MTDiscord and pipe your complaints to /dev/null 02:01 erlehmann this is relevant to my interests 02:02 erlehmann because i think mcl2 is totally going to break it lol 02:02 MTDiscord i wouldnt be suprised 02:02 Philaire Second, and that's going to be basically the same criticism, main mods of MC have even wikis dedicated to it 02:02 Philaire so you know where to find the info 02:02 Philaire I googled "technic minetest mod", and I am getting contradictory sources 02:03 MTDiscord there are two main versions, one is basically dead 02:04 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest-mods/technic and https://github.com/mt-mods/technic 02:04 Philaire (I'm tempted to complain that gitlab for pipeworks forces me to a Captcha, but I don't want to troll erlehmann :P ) 02:04 MTDiscord pipeworks isnt on gitlab 02:04 Philaire https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/pipeworks/ ? 02:05 MTDiscord https://github.com/mt-mods/pipeworks 02:05 erlehmann well i googled "climate change" just now and it claimed to have 299 000 000 results. i then went to page 21 of search results and … upon calling their bluff, it says “page 21 of about 203 results”. 02:05 Philaire *grunting and groaning noises* 02:05 erlehmann you can repeat this for almost every search query. a random university library will give you more hits for some common queries :D 02:06 erlehmann back to pipeworks, i have no idea what the canonical repo is 02:06 erlehmann does something like a canonical repo even exist for stuff that is not on contentdb? 02:07 Philaire erlehmann : well, it would be nice to have something like a SRP for ContentDB. 02:07 erlehmann SRP? 02:07 MTDiscord not like contentdb has a source link or anything erlehmann 02:07 Philaire Single Responsability Principle 02:07 erlehmann Philaire, please elaborate 02:07 Philaire like "put all things that are on a single authority" 02:07 MTDiscord i wouldnt use srp in minetest circles, everyone will think you are talking about how it does passwords ? 02:08 erlehmann i don't get it. if it's on contentdb, you have a canonical source link, like jonathon said 02:08 erlehmann if it's not on contentdb, here be dragons 02:08 erlehmann that's true for every single software 02:08 Philaire See, this time, it's my fault 02:08 erlehmann it's not anyone's fault 02:08 Philaire No, it's my fault, here 02:08 erlehmann it's obviously some systemic issue 02:09 erlehmann what was your fault exactly? 02:09 Philaire I didn't think you could browse mods easily on ContentDB 02:09 Philaire so I used google primarily 02:09 Philaire this being said, 02:09 Philaire now, 02:09 erlehmann okay, i agree. google is really bad as a search engine lately. 02:09 Philaire if I type "pipeworks" I'm effectively on the right track 02:09 Philaire and I can see the good repo on github 02:09 erlehmann i have written software myself and some articles about obscure topics 02:10 erlehmann and in the past, google found that software and also the articles 02:10 erlehmann nowadays, it only finds pages that *link* to that software or those articles 02:10 Philaire except we're not speaking 'bout google 02:10 Philaire but "what is the correct way to use and find mods for MT" 02:10 erlehmann which is hilarious, because according to my understanding of pagerank, if the top 10 search results all link to the same page maybe that should be the top result instead? 02:10 erlehmann the correct way is to use the ingame mod browser or the contentdb website 02:11 erlehmann if that fails, go to the forums, as rubenwardy said 02:11 Philaire which is why I was saying it was my fault 02:11 erlehmann next, search github / gitlab / git.minetest.land 02:11 Philaire since I did google first 02:11 MTDiscord use cdb, if its not there, use the forums, if not there, use google for a git host link 02:11 Philaire then cdb last 02:11 Philaire this being said now 02:11 erlehmann as i said, google has become hilariously bad in finding obscure information lately 02:11 Philaire I'd be willing to port some nice mods from MC to MT 02:12 erlehmann and minetest mods not on cdb or forums are likely to be obscure 02:12 erlehmann Philaire, cool, which ones? 02:12 Philaire well, I'm not sure 02:12 erlehmann Philaire i am interested! 02:12 Philaire depends on how hard it is 02:12 erlehmann if you can contribute stuff to mineclone2 or mineclonia i'd be interested too. 02:12 Philaire same answer 02:12 erlehmann because basically, if you rely on minecraft style of API and know it well, you might be able to give good advice 02:12 Philaire no 02:13 erlehmann for how to structure it so that minecraft mods are easy to port 02:13 Philaire not a good advice 02:13 erlehmann oh okay 02:13 Philaire for even if  I knew it sufficiently 02:13 Philaire architecture either stinks 02:13 Philaire either is different from MT 02:13 erlehmann are you saying the mc API is bullshit 02:13 Philaire no 02:13 erlehmann ok 02:13 Philaire officially, there's no API 02:13 erlehmann okay, yeah i get it 02:13 erlehmann there are prob a few different mod loaders 02:13 Philaire I'm saying that the code is ugly 02:13 erlehmann that patch the binary? 02:14 erlehmann or do a reflection dance 02:14 Philaire but that the mod loaders authors are doing amazing work 02:14 Philaire given how MC works 02:14 Philaire still, putting a cherry ontop of a sh**cake doesn't make the whole slice tasty 02:14 erlehmann sheesecake 02:14 erlehmann rather peculiar spelling 02:14 erlehmann :D 02:15 Philaire two letters too much :P 02:15 Philaire But still 02:15 erlehmann could you port agatha rose's asbestos mod? 02:15 Philaire I teach Java to my students 02:15 Philaire meaning I can't use MT as a teaching source 02:15 erlehmann well, that's probably better than teaching them lua lol 02:15 erlehmann lua is an absolute pain of a language 02:15 Philaire otherwise, "port mod X to MT" would be a recurring assignment 02:15 erlehmann you are one typo away from a nil error at any time 02:16 erlehmann Philaire can it not be one? because they'd figure out how to port apps from java 02:17 Philaire I can't ask them to code in Lua 02:17 erlehmann i mean, bad coders can write PHP in any language, but for creating blueprints etc. 02:17 erlehmann yeah but you could ask them to figure out how to do the same thing in another programming paradigm? 02:17 Philaire no, I can't 02:17 erlehmann oh okay 02:17 Philaire I've already danced around the question, y'know 02:17 erlehmann well, maybe you can ask them to improve amidst :D 02:17 erlehmann are you asking for java bindings for minetest 02:18 Philaire "java bindings for minetest" 02:18 erlehmann so you are? 02:18 Philaire I take "worse idea than putting a fork in an electric socket for $10,00" 02:18 erlehmann well, i'm not paying you for either 02:19 Philaire that's a joke, mate ;) 02:19 Philaire jeopardy reference 02:19 erlehmann i see 02:19 Philaire you know what jeopardy is ? :) 02:19 erlehmann well, they don't use dollars in france anyway, right? 02:19 Philaire nah, we don't 02:19 erlehmann great, i have a question for you though 02:19 Philaire ask ahead 02:20 Philaire then I hit bed asap 02:20 Philaire it's 3.20 02:20 erlehmann is it really a domestic flight to the ESA country in south america, french guyana? 02:20 erlehmann i'm in germany, it's the same time here 02:20 erlehmann like, can i, as a european union citizen, visit the rainforest? 02:20 Philaire I need to wake up at 7.15 02:20 erlehmann uh-oh 02:20 erlehmann if it is part of france proper, that's probably a cool holiday (if it's not too expensive, which i fear it may be) 02:21 Philaire well 02:21 erlehmann like if they use eurodollars 02:21 Philaire to answer you 02:21 erlehmann and you can see the space launcher and the rainforests 02:21 Philaire visiting FG 02:21 Philaire that only requires a passport or an ID card 02:21 Philaire since you're from EU 02:21 Philaire and it's effectively EU terr 02:22 erlehmann customs or weird border police shenanigans? or like entering any other EU country? 02:22 erlehmann i.e. they only check your ID (and only if they are interested) 02:22 Philaire it's a French region 02:22 erlehmann yeah, but EU territories out of europe are super weird regulation wise 02:22 erlehmann that is why i am asking 02:22 Philaire outside of that 02:22 Philaire I have no clue 02:23 Philaire my domain is CS 02:23 Philaire not Geo/Pol 02:23 erlehmann well, i thought maybe it got taught in geography class or so ^^ 02:23 erlehmann i mean germany doesn't really have colonies 02:24 erlehmann so we never learn about anything like that 02:24 erlehmann i was surprised that it's a part of france proper even 02:24 erlehmann i just knew it as the place where the ariane rockets start 02:24 erlehmann Philaire where is your thesis hosted? 02:24 erlehmann could i look into it? 02:24 Philaire sure 02:24 Philaire but later 02:24 erlehmann no hurries 02:24 Philaire i'm falling alseep 02:24 erlehmann just text me 02:24 erlehmann and go sleep 02:24 erlehmann good night! 02:25 Philaire one last thing 02:25 Philaire is there a discord MT? 02:25 erlehmann somehow a discord is linked to this channel 02:25 erlehmann but i have no idea why 02:25 erlehmann if you are already using discord, it could make sense to use the bridge 02:26 Philaire head out, then 02:26 Philaire ninight 02:26 erlehmann but AFAIK IRC is the medium of choice for most stuff 02:26 erlehmann !tell Philaire https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord 02:26 MinetestBot erlehmann: I'll pass that on when Philaire is around 02:27 erlehmann i find the “edit any person's message, with no permissions needed, by sending a custom API request” thing the most damning there 02:27 erlehmann > Given the severity of this bug, and that Discord operates a bug bounty program, you'd think there would be a sweet reward for this. In fact, the person who discovered it got a couple of codes for premium subscriptions. 02:27 erlehmann ^^ 02:32 GreenXenith !tell Philaire Dont let other people tell you what platforms are "good or not", use what you are comfortable with. You can join our active official Discord server at https://discord.gg/minetest :) 02:32 MinetestBot GreenXenith: yeah, yeah 02:34 erlehmann it doesn't actually say “do not use discord” 02:34 erlehmann (the blog post is from a person actually using discord) 02:39 rubenwardy I don't trust computers yet I still use them 02:43 erlehmann look, i am sending everyone who mentions discord that link so they can make an informed decision. 02:44 wsor cough discord 02:45 erlehmann and cadence isn't just anyone 02:45 MTDiscord would you like me to give you a link about why IRC is antiquated every time you mention IRC? 02:47 erlehmann if there were comparable problems, yes. when i suggest any chat service to anyone, i give them a rundown of the issues. 02:47 MTDiscord Thats great man, but presumably if someone asks about Discord, theyve already made the choice to use Discord. 02:48 MTDiscord You arent the one suggesting they use Discord, so according to what youve just said, you dont need to try to convince them of anything 02:48 erlehmann maybe i am mistaken, but if the discord thing sees the exact same thing as this channel, then isn't it relevant what the drawbacks are? 02:48 MTDiscord If someone asks for the Minetest IRC I dont say "there is one but you should use Discord", I give them the channel names and point to the bridge 02:49 rubenwardy ? 02:49 MTDiscord So quit interjecting your opinion about Discord into our lives when all people want is the invite link 02:50 erlehmann i guess if i stop pointing out the drawbacks of every single thing that is mentioned then to not upset you? 02:50 erlehmann i'll ask Philaire if it was unnecessary noise once that person comes back 02:50 erlehmann if yes, it convinces me that i should stop doing it for discord at least 02:51 MTDiscord I think a lot of people would be relieved if you stopped pointing out a lot of things 02:51 erlehmann ok? 02:51 erlehmann yeah, but i am pretty sure my habit of reflexively pointing out negative things is at the core of it 02:51 erlehmann or not? 02:53 MTDiscord quote from yesterday > i am a dumbo and should be quiet 02:53 MTDiscord Discovering the root of bad habits sounds like a personal journey. All I want is for you to stop waving a protest sign every time someone mentions Discord. 02:54 erlehmann what i'm saying is, it's not discord-specific 02:54 MTDiscord If you say so 02:55 erlehmann i mean my answer to “wuold you like if i point out why IRC is antiquated” query is “yeah, go ahead” 02:55 rubenwardy my answer is please stop 02:55 erlehmann ok! 02:56 erlehmann GreenXenith, actually, do you have an “why IRC sucks” article on hand? i could actually use that. not to spam it when IRC is mentioned, but when people ask “should we use IRC?” when a group is constituting itself. 02:56 erlehmann i'm sorry for annoying you :/ 02:57 MTDiscord Your probably annoying ruben more at this point 02:57 MTDiscord youre* 02:57 rubenwardy he's pinged me 6 times today 02:57 rubenwardy jokes 02:58 erlehmann oof? 02:58 erlehmann you mean highlighted? 02:58 erlehmann or like /ping 02:59 MTDiscord and no I dont have an article for that on hand because no one wants to waste their time on that sort of thing I guess 02:59 erlehmann uh, oh 02:59 erlehmann well then stop asking such questions if you can't handle a “yes, go ahead” 02:59 erlehmann regardless, good night 02:59 MTDiscord what questions? 02:59 rubenwardy Discord users are too busy in school to make an article 03:00 MTDiscord Thank you for your contribution rubenwardy ? 03:00 erlehmann rubenwardy you definitely win the flaming contest here ^^ 03:00 MTDiscord Oh, the "would you like" question 03:00 MTDiscord Hypotheticals are such a novel concept arent they 03:00 erlehmann oh, my mistake then 03:01 erlehmann i thought it was more like … a threat 03:01 MTDiscord Haha, no 03:01 rubenwardy one thing we can agree on is that discord is a source of discord 03:01 MTDiscord The point of the question was to say "doing this is annoying and kinda rude to anyone that asks or uses it, I wouldnt want me to do it or have it done to me" 03:02 MTDiscord is a source of discord 03:02 erlehmann GreenXenith, another thing then, you said you were working on some thing that was much better than the poorly cobbled together node entity thing that cora and me had resurrected. is it done by now? 03:02 MTDiscord https://github.com/GreenXenith/lvae/ ? 03:02 MTDiscord youve asked this before 03:02 erlehmann GreenXenith i would very much like it if you said that directly next time i am behaving in a way that you find annoying 03:02 MTDiscord Fair enough 03:02 erlehmann yeah but you suggested that it would be improved somehow 03:03 erlehmann if i understand it correctly, this is just the API? 03:03 MTDiscord Thats all its intended to be 03:03 erlehmann okay, so are there any mods using it? 03:03 MTDiscord Unlikely, its not a commonly needed thing 03:03 MTDiscord And I dont really advertise it 03:03 erlehmann oh, why did you make it then, if not for a mod that might use it? 03:04 MTDiscord Because I want to use it for my own mods 03:04 erlehmann but you did not, yet? or are they not public? 03:04 erlehmann i mean you are right about meshnode, it supports only very basic stuff 03:04 MTDiscord And are you seriously asking me why I made something? Me? Who makes random mods like hexagons and circular hotbars just for fun? 03:04 MTDiscord ;p 03:04 erlehmann oh yeah, i forgot who i am talking to 03:04 rubenwardy kinf of concept 03:05 MTDiscord pro tip, if you want something fast from green, tell them that it cant be done, and to prove you wrong with a proof of concept 03:05 erlehmann but basically what i wanted to know is if the “one will be released in the near future” thing is still true 03:05 erlehmann oh, that's funny 03:05 erlehmann GreenXenith i think it's impossible to actually have minecarts with inventories in mineclone2 03:05 erlehmann (that was too specific, was it?) 03:06 MTDiscord I think he meant things that most people agree cant be done 03:06 erlehmann GreenXenith, if there is something half-finished, i'd like to see it, even if it's not on contentdb. 03:06 MTDiscord entities with inventories is a solved problem 03:06 erlehmann oh, hmm, wait then 03:08 erlehmann i bet it is impossible to have a game in which gravity goes multiple ways (orbital dynamics etc.)( 03:08 erlehmann i mean 03:08 erlehmann that's a stupid idea 03:08 MTDiscord erl: check out the https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=22464 mod, i believe that is cart with invs 03:08 erlehmann because we all know how to do this 03:08 MTDiscord I dont recall saying such a mod would be released "soon", but lets say I did: The mod I built lvae for doesnt exist in a state which uses lvae 03:08 erlehmann thanks MisterE 03:08 MTDiscord LVAE was originally built as a mod to make ships, and it existed in a functioning state, and Ive already shown you what it looked like 03:08 erlehmann the repo literally said “LVAE can be used to make a similar mod (and one will be released in the near future).” 03:09 erlehmann but i get it, you are not done 03:09 MTDiscord Oh, touche` 03:09 erlehmann yeah 03:09 MTDiscord That was a lie then, retroactively 03:09 erlehmann so that's the only thing i am asking about 03:09 erlehmann it's not to annoy you 03:09 erlehmann just because i thought you were maybe still working on it 03:09 MTDiscord thats the sort of thing I could probably glue together in under an hour 03:10 MTDiscord or you could, you know ;p 03:10 MTDiscord promises, promises ? these projects have a way to scaling in the time axis 03:10 MTDiscord *of 03:10 MTDiscord at least lvae exists 03:10 erlehmann well, i have no idea how 03:10 erlehmann yeah, but a functioning meshnode thing for mcl2 exists too 03:10 erlehmann and it took me and cora many hours for it 03:11 erlehmann just to make meshnode handle some stuff 03:11 erlehmann that it could not before 03:11 MTDiscord lvae took me 3 years to make 03:11 erlehmann and not make holes in bedrock lol 03:11 MTDiscord x) 03:11 erlehmann what i am saying: i would be very bad at using LVAE 03:11 erlehmann GreenXenith, proof of concept wise, do you know any orbital mechanics mod? 03:11 MTDiscord what exactly do you want from the mod? The "near future" mod it refers to is one to make ships 03:11 erlehmann like runge kutta integration gravity stuff 03:11 MTDiscord I dont think anyone has messed with very advanced physics in Minetest much, due to engine limitations 03:12 erlehmann ships and possibly airships 03:12 MTDiscord ok, just making sure 03:12 erlehmann the thing is, i have a very simple dea 03:12 erlehmann idea 03:12 erlehmann 1. wooden stuff gives buyoancy 03:12 erlehmann in water 03:12 erlehmann 2. wool gives buyoancy in air 03:13 MTDiscord I kinda hate the meshnode method of sticking blocks together so I might use that old airship mod method and use a special platform to build from 03:13 erlehmann 3. some sort of control node that you can place 03:13 erlehmann the meshnode thing is really tedious 03:13 erlehmann what is the airship mod method? flood fill but dou stop at the “special platform” ? 03:13 MTDiscord I believe so 03:13 erlehmann you 03:13 MTDiscord my original shipmaker mod did that but with water instead (flood fill but stop at water) 03:14 erlehmann well that could get ugly if someone puts the controller on the ground lol 03:14 erlehmann so what did it do when someone put it on a mountain? 03:14 MTDiscord if the controller is on the ground then it isnt on the platform now is it 03:14 erlehmann or on the coast 03:14 erlehmann uh, maybe explain the platform thing more 03:14 MTDiscord I would if I could remember it better 03:14 erlehmann could you give me just a link to your shipmaker mod? 03:14 MTDiscord I used it like once a long time ago 03:14 erlehmann so can try it 03:15 MTDiscord no, the shipmaker mod was what lvae was in the beginning 03:15 erlehmann ah! 03:15 MTDiscord before I turned it into a general purpose Voxel Area Entity mod 03:15 erlehmann well, the problem “someone puts a bug ball of wool on a mountain and flies away with it” is kinda funny 03:15 erlehmann maybe it is not meant to be solved 03:15 erlehmann because then people can steal other people's bases 03:15 erlehmann :D 03:15 MTDiscord I was making all these custom entity nodes and realized "hey this would be useful as an API" 03:15 erlehmann bug → big 03:15 erlehmann yeah obv 03:16 MTDiscord the airship mod I was thinking of: https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=6184 03:16 MTDiscord 9 years old :^) 03:17 MTDiscord It had some stricter rules on what you could use to build with 03:17 MTDiscord I originally just had an arbitrary size limit and non-usable nodes, that may just be the best way to do it 03:18 erlehmann well, in mcl_meshnode we decided to have the meshnode method of gluing, but you could not glue bedrock or so to it 03:18 MTDiscord must be <=n amount of nodes, where air, water, and some special support nodes arent flood filled 03:18 erlehmann and i think we may have had extra handling of entity nodes 03:18 erlehmann that isn't really good 03:19 erlehmann how are you handling nodes like mcl chests or double chests or crystals in LVAE? 03:19 erlehmann (not at all?) 03:20 MTDiscord Entities are obviously not nodes so lvae doesnt care about them. Theoretically if node callbacks are implemented then custom entity nodes could be supported but thats not a priority 03:20 MTDiscord Even with a real Voxel Area Entity system you would have the same issue 03:21 erlehmann yes 03:21 erlehmann that is why i am asking 03:21 MTDiscord so your custom handling is a necessity anyway 03:21 erlehmann chests in mcl games can be nodes or entities 03:21 MTDiscord you could still do custom handling with lvae though 03:21 erlehmann and i wonder what would be the best way to support mods such as LVAE 03:22 erlehmann like, maybe write the entity in meta somehow? but what to write? 03:22 MTDiscord ? 03:23 erlehmann okay lol 03:23 erlehmann ^^ 03:23 erlehmann i mean, ultimately, i think the engine should support some nodetype where this shenanigans are not needed 03:23 erlehmann but unclear to me how 20:44 luizsab hello. When I dig a aple tree the apples are floating in the air, is it normal? 20:47 MTDiscord hi 20:47 MTDiscord do you play MTG? 20:49 gh00p luizsab, only some blocks will fall if you dig underneath them, like sand or gravel. Most other blocks will stay floating if you undermine them. 20:54 luizsab gh00p but leaves falls I was thinking the apples will be with the same behavior 21:01 gh00p luizsab, leaves fall because trees need wood to support them, but you can *place* leaves and remove what's under them and they will stay. 21:08 luizsab that's strange apples floating when there's no more tree 22:25 MTDiscord could someone carefully explain the basics of lua mapgen to me? 22:27 sfan5 you make sure the engine mapgen is set to singlenode and then register a on_generated callback which should generate the world inside the minpos, maxpos it was given 22:27 sfan5 were these the basics you were hoping for? 22:28 MTDiscord i used https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=6396 to understand the basics, since its not really optimized, etc. once you understand that, paramat has a basic mapgen thats been optimized 22:29 MTDiscord https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=19836 sorry, I was afk, im back now 22:39 MTDiscord sfan5, I got that much, but how to do it exactly is where I have trouble. Looking at Jonathan's post... 22:41 MTDiscord @school of hard knocks, Inc so I started with paramat's, and its a bit confusing 22:41 MTDiscord I will start with the first onw 22:41 MTDiscord so....user error 22:42 MTDiscord ? 22:43 sfan5 well you literally have to decide about every single node 22:44 sfan5 if you want to generate terrain that is reminiscent of MTs v7 then yes paramat's example is right for you 22:44 sfan5 if you want to fill half the world with stone and the other half with air then not so much 22:45 MTDiscord ^ https://content.minetest.net/packages/?q=superflat both of these are good for that 22:46 MTDiscord rdococ being the one to start with 23:00 MTDiscord local a = VoxelArea:new{ MinEdge={x=emin.x, y=emin.y, z=emin.z}, MaxEdge={x=emax.x, y=emax.y, z=emax.z}, } 23:00 MTDiscord why not just have MinEdge = emin? 23:08 MTDiscord could someone explain this: lua local nvals = noise:get3dMap_flat({x=minp.x, y=minp.y, z=minp.z}) local ni = 1 for z = minp.z, maxp.z do for y = minp.y, maxp.y do for x = minp.x, maxp.x do if nvals[ni] - (y - 25) / 55 > 0.5 then local vi = a:index(x, y, z) if y < 1 then data[vi] = c_dirt else data[vi] = c_grass end elseif y < 23:08 MTDiscord 1 then local vi = a:index(x, y, z) data[vi] = c_water end ni = ni + 1 end end end 23:09 MTDiscord specifically the following questions: 23:09 MTDiscord what is ni? 23:09 MTDiscord if nvals[ni] - (y - 25) / 55 > 0.5 then 23:09 MTDiscord and what does that do? 23:11 MTDiscord this is a irc channel, use a pastebin 23:30 MTDiscord got it 23:33 erlehmann mister, this is a wendy's 23:35 MTDiscord ni stands for noise index, the index into the table of values from the 3d perlin noise map 23:36 MTDiscord the equation I think is pretty arbitrary, it determines if a block should go there based on the noise value 23:37 MTDiscord paramats example has a simpler version with a better explanation about density or something 23:38 MTDiscord its also a pretty lame way to calculate where to put grass ? 23:41 MinetestBot Philaire: Mar-20 02:26 UTC https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord 23:41 MinetestBot Philaire: Mar-20 02:32 UTC Dont let other people tell you what platforms are "good or not", use what you are comfortable with. You can join our active official Discord server at https://discord.gg/minetest :) 23:58 MTDiscord ok, I understand the voxel manipulator, (i got rid of the noise) now to tackle noise