| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:07 |
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| 00:09 |
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merazi joined #minetest |
| 00:09 |
merazi |
hey |
| 00:09 |
merazi |
remember me from yesterday? I had troubles with mineclone2 and the default mod |
| 00:09 |
erlehmann |
d |
| 00:09 |
erlehmann |
yes |
| 00:10 |
merazi |
I solved the issue by installing the mod manually |
| 00:10 |
erlehmann |
merazi did you find out problem |
| 00:10 |
merazi |
installing the game* |
| 00:10 |
erlehmann |
what was the mod |
| 00:10 |
merazi |
It was a game, mineclone2 |
| 00:11 |
erlehmann |
yes but what required the default mod |
| 00:12 |
merazi |
I'm not entirely sure, but I would guess it was something from mineclone2 |
| 00:12 |
merazi |
I understand games are the same as a mod pack |
| 00:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> no, they arent |
| 00:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> they go in there own dir, they have there own minetest.conf, also game.conf, have menu folder for backgrounds images, header, icon, and music |
| 00:14 |
merazi |
mmmm |
| 00:15 |
merazi |
Ooohhh ok, I found a "mods" dir in mineclone2 |
| 00:15 |
merazi |
there are e l0t of mods |
| 00:18 |
erlehmann |
marazi yes there are |
| 00:18 |
erlehmann |
so many mods :) |
| 00:22 |
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| 00:22 |
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Bombo joined #minetest |
| 00:25 |
merazi |
so, I just removed mineclone2 using the ingame menu |
| 00:26 |
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proller joined #minetest |
| 00:26 |
merazi |
and then went to the game's website, downloaded the zip file and moved it to ~/.minetest/games/ |
| 00:26 |
erlehmann |
what website did you use? |
| 00:30 |
rubenwardy |
it shouldn't make a difference |
| 00:30 |
rubenwardy |
all versions of mineclone2 don't have a default mod |
| 00:31 |
merazi |
I went to https://content.minetest.net/packages/Wuzzy/mineclone2/?protocol_version=39 |
| 00:31 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy i wanted to know if it was git.minetest.org again ;) |
| 00:32 |
rubenwardy |
merazi: that's the same as what the in client downloads |
| 00:34 |
merazi |
weird |
| 00:34 |
rubenwardy |
I suspect you're enabling different combinations of mods |
| 00:34 |
merazi |
maybe something happened when I removed the game from the ingame menu |
| 00:34 |
merazi |
I have all of them enabled |
| 00:35 |
merazi |
Maybe the order in which the mods are being loaded changed (???) |
| 00:45 |
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| 00:59 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> does find_node_near accept decimals for the radius? |
| 00:59 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> like, if I want to find a node within .3 m of the search center |
| 00:59 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> because my position is derived from a player's position |
| 01:01 |
rubenwardy |
radius is an integer, unfortunately |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> there is no find_nodes_near |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> there is find_nodes_in_radius |
| 01:03 |
rubenwardy |
node, singular |
| 01:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ah, |
| 01:03 |
rubenwardy |
minetest.find_node_near(pos, radius, nodenames[, search_center]) |
| 01:16 |
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| 03:27 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> blah, well thx |
| 03:28 |
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| 04:30 |
merazi |
good night people (it's pretty late where I live), have a wonderful rest of your day/night |
| 05:00 |
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| 11:35 |
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| 11:36 |
independent56 |
How do i specify paths to a texture? I tried `tiles = {"stop/spam/" .. texture .. ".billboard.png"},`, but it can't find the texture, despite the folders being named perfectly. |
| 11:41 |
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| 11:43 |
kabou |
putting the png files in mod/texture , then mod code can refer to "bla.png" without explicit path i think |
| 11:44 |
kabou |
independent56 mod/textures i mean |
| 11:45 |
independent56 |
So basically if there were textures in textures/stop/spam (as in my case), then a simple {texture}, with texture being the name of a png file in textures/stop/spam, it would still find it? |
| 11:46 |
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| 11:46 |
kabou |
dunno if it works with subdirs, you should try |
| 11:47 |
kabou |
it might and it might not |
| 11:47 |
independent56 |
Yes, it works!! |
| 11:47 |
kabou |
cool |
| 11:48 |
independent56 |
I used a python script to generate the textures. --> https://gitlab.com/56independent/britsignals/-/blob/master/textures/stop/generator.py |
| 11:48 |
independent56 |
Thats why it's called stop/spam |
| 11:48 |
independent56 |
Just look at the fnction calls at the bottom 0_0 |
| 11:49 |
kabou |
good thing i'm not from california.. |
| 11:52 |
independent56 |
? |
| 11:52 |
independent56 |
I'm not from california either |
| 11:52 |
independent56 |
oh i get it now |
| 11:52 |
independent56 |
It's a prop 65 joke |
| 11:52 |
* kabou |
hands independent56 a cup of coffee |
| 11:58 |
independent56 |
I ran out of space on my server because of automated backups |
| 11:58 |
independent56 |
:-| |
| 11:59 |
independent56 |
I need to upgrade my storage to 1 tb |
| 11:59 |
MTDiscord |
<CartridgeZine> hands independent56 some biscuits |
| 12:00 |
independent56 |
thanks |
| 12:00 |
independent56 |
That's why i couldn't join my server |
| 12:00 |
MTDiscord |
<CartridgeZine> Enjoy, your meal! |
| 12:03 |
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| 12:04 |
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| 12:08 |
Parnikkapore_m |
independent56: Hi, I somehow always got killed while touring the mesecons zone of the NEOM museum (NEOM3?). What's up with that? |
| 12:08 |
Parnikkapore_m |
Oh he's offline |
| 12:09 |
* Parnikkapore_m |
has to remind himself to talk on IRC on IRC instead |
| 12:25 |
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definitelya joined #minetest |
| 12:30 |
independent56 |
Hi |
| 12:30 |
definitelya |
hey |
| 12:30 |
independent56 |
.Thanks for telling me |
| 12:43 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy it looks to me that the portal thing will be resolved without drama bc of kay27 finding schematics the wrong approach and writing a generic function to generate ruined portals or so. which would be great, because that means we have more diversity in approaches! |
| 12:44 |
erlehmann |
at least this is how i interpret this image: https://git.minetest.land/MineClone2/MineClone2/attachments/3e26468a-29bb-4721-ad33-7d4e2f2ce72a |
| 12:45 |
erlehmann |
i think placing big schematics may not be compatible with his mapgen or something. no idea. |
| 12:45 |
erlehmann |
but making a generic function is super interesting |
| 12:46 |
rubenwardy |
looks to me that you already created drama |
| 12:46 |
erlehmann |
did i? |
| 12:47 |
erlehmann |
honestly, the mcl* thing has been low-key drama between several people with strong opinions on things ever since i was aware of it |
| 12:47 |
erlehmann |
i don't think i made it worse |
| 12:47 |
erlehmann |
as long as we can still collaborate |
| 12:48 |
erlehmann |
i mean no one has banned anyone from each others bug tracker so far ;) |
| 12:48 |
rubenwardy |
you made it worse by bringing the drama into here, and trying to hold your code hostage |
| 12:48 |
rubenwardy |
it's not productive |
| 12:48 |
erlehmann |
well, you made it clear that legally, i can't. and i think it was the wrong approach. |
| 12:50 |
erlehmann |
i think the right approach is to not publish things that can be taken that way. |
| 12:50 |
erlehmann |
i.e. make sure that at every step the published thing is of high enough quality that people will not complain. |
| 13:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> how many mineclones are there now? 4 or something? |
| 13:07 |
erlehmann |
it's mineclone2, mineclonia and mineclone5. mineclone2 is “EXACTLY LIKE MINECRAFT”, mineclonia is “STABILITY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN FEATURES”, mineclone5 is “merge all the things, we can fix the bug slater, also replace the mapgen and generally WOW ISN'T THIS COOL” |
| 13:07 |
erlehmann |
i would say all three have a justification to exist |
| 13:08 |
erlehmann |
though i am, of course, a bit biased about all of them |
| 13:12 |
erlehmann |
Sublayer plank have any other games had this level of fragmentation so far? |
| 13:14 |
|
independent56 joined #minetest |
| 13:14 |
independent56 |
And now theres a mineclone which has a bigger community then minetest and uses java |
| 13:14 |
independent56 |
Forgot what it's called. Something like Minework or something |
| 13:15 |
erlehmann |
well, mineclonia and mineclone5 kinda depart from minecraft imitation at key points |
| 13:15 |
erlehmann |
or at kay points, hehehehe |
| 13:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> erlehmann: lol, minecraft maybe? it feels like there's a sizable community around every single major version of minecraft going back to even beta or alpha |
| 13:16 |
erlehmann |
Sublayer plank oh but that is probably because of gameplay differences, not differences in philosophy |
| 13:16 |
erlehmann |
about how to develop |
| 13:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> true |
| 13:22 |
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| 13:24 |
definitelya |
If they aren't careful, Mineclone5 will become the next MTG in the Minecl- universe at this rate. |
| 13:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> how so? |
| 13:25 |
erlehmann |
i doubt it |
| 13:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> mineclone5 has... some kind of goal at least, it knows what it wants to be |
| 13:25 |
erlehmann |
i think mineclone2 and mineclonia are more compatible with each other than either one is with mineclone5 at this point |
| 13:26 |
definitelya |
Sublayer plank: They'd have many bad decisions deeply ingrained in the game; and then it would be too late to save it. |
| 13:26 |
erlehmann |
the goal is of kay to put as many cool things into it |
| 13:26 |
erlehmann |
i think there are a bunch of bad decisions already, but it's not *my* game so all i can do is tell people |
| 13:26 |
definitelya |
Good goal, you just have to be wary. |
| 13:26 |
definitelya |
erlehmann: mhm |
| 13:27 |
erlehmann |
kay knows what he is doing, he just values features over everything else it seems |
| 13:28 |
erlehmann |
take for example, aligning the mcl_maps on a 128×128 grid. kay thinks it is stupid because he once wanted to make a map with a village in the middle and also because it does not conform to minetest chunk size. |
| 13:28 |
erlehmann |
so he wants to align his maps on the player position |
| 13:28 |
erlehmann |
other people, like me, think it is bad, because that way it becomes very hard to put maps in item frames next to each other and have them line up |
| 13:28 |
erlehmann |
funnily enough, the mineclone2 purists agree with me here beause coincidentally i advocate the way that is EXACTLY LIKE MINECRAFT hehe |
| 13:29 |
erlehmann |
but you see, to him maps in item frames are not as important as to me |
| 13:30 |
erlehmann |
and also his changes conflict somewhat with changes i have already made that add new features, but he knows that and probably thinks those changes are not cool enough |
| 13:30 |
erlehmann |
so yeah, different goals |
| 13:30 |
erlehmann |
that's all |
| 13:31 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> and in other new mineclonia is a dieing project, falling way behind the other 2 versions in terms of features |
| 13:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> since users want features, hence why mineclone5 is popular |
| 13:32 |
erlehmann |
look, it does not matter to me what you think. i prefer to not lag to death because someone placed a billion echests. |
| 13:32 |
erlehmann |
the users who use mineclonia value stability and low lag over features. that's all. |
| 13:32 |
erlehmann |
you can have both kind of users. |
| 13:32 |
erlehmann |
i honestly don't care about people who think features are more important than not having crashes. they can go play mineclone5. it is good that i can say that! |
| 13:33 |
definitelya |
"It's not a bugfix PR, it's a feature!" |
| 13:33 |
erlehmann |
don't understand me wrong, kay fixes bugs all the time |
| 13:33 |
erlehmann |
but he also adds new features in the bugfixes |
| 13:33 |
erlehmann |
possibly creating new bug sources |
| 13:34 |
erlehmann |
it is only logical that that way he gets new features faster out the door |
| 13:34 |
erlehmann |
not everyone has to do the tradeoffs the same way |
| 13:35 |
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| 13:43 |
erlehmann |
Jonathon i wonder if you consider “can not see entities being on fire in mcl2 >0.71 unless you have the mandatory CSM installed” a feature. i consider it an anti-feature. |
| 14:07 |
erlehmann |
by the way, i do not like kay27 really, but i think if there is ever a chance for him to influence how map generator works in future, it might be a good idea. |
| 14:07 |
erlehmann |
he has identified and worked around difficult problems |
| 14:07 |
erlehmann |
only he is doing it in lua, very slow, also still not 100% reliable |
| 14:08 |
erlehmann |
since he ultimately has to code around engine bugs to prevent mapgen griefing |
| 14:24 |
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| 14:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> oh yeah also, has mineclonia more or less replaced mineclone2? mcl2 seems to be a bit dead now... |
| 14:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> because if I understand correctly mineclonia has the same version goal of staying at 1.12 |
| 14:37 |
rubenwardy |
mineclonia has the goal of staying still |
| 14:37 |
erlehmann |
not really |
| 14:40 |
erlehmann |
cora has taken over mcl2 maintainership recently after fleck asked her. i think it is not salvage-able without a lot of effort, but she is trying to fix it. most importantly, reset the mobs to a state that they were in mcl2 0.71 and mineclonia, also merge the performance fixes from mineclonia. |
| 14:40 |
kabou |
afaik mineclone2 has dumped the 1.12 only requirement |
| 14:40 |
kabou |
the goal was just to add features carefully |
| 14:40 |
erlehmann |
if we have a 1.12 only requirement in the mineclonia readme, then only bc we have not replaced it |
| 14:40 |
kabou |
but about a year ago the mobs got severely fuxxored over |
| 14:40 |
kabou |
and then drama ensued |
| 14:40 |
erlehmann |
and mineclone5 and mineclonia ensued |
| 14:41 |
kabou |
and leading devs dropped out |
| 14:41 |
kabou |
kay returned and forked mineclone5 |
| 14:41 |
erlehmann |
and clamity server switched to mineclonia |
| 14:41 |
kabou |
recently mineclone2 got an new project lead, cora |
| 14:41 |
kabou |
we're working on things |
| 14:42 |
erlehmann |
i hope it gets into a playable state again |
| 14:42 |
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| 14:42 |
kabou |
AFAICS the mioneclonia policy is "erlehmann's favo server cannot ever change" |
| 14:42 |
erlehmann |
kabou lol |
| 14:42 |
erlehmann |
it's more like: “no feature justifies adding new bugs or crashes” |
| 14:42 |
kabou |
clamity does not exist anymore does it? |
| 14:42 |
erlehmann |
and “mandatory reviews for everything, however long it takes” |
| 14:43 |
kabou |
isn't it now oysterity? |
| 14:43 |
erlehmann |
yes, clamity was murdered by a rogue admin |
| 14:43 |
kabou |
doesn't cora run oysterity? |
| 14:43 |
erlehmann |
yes |
| 14:43 |
erlehmann |
she does |
| 14:43 |
kabou |
well expect a change over to mineclone2 then at some time |
| 14:43 |
kabou |
i guess |
| 14:43 |
erlehmann |
i hope not, it is so buggy |
| 14:44 |
kabou |
why would she stick with mineclonia? |
| 14:44 |
erlehmann |
well currently she is sticking with her own branch |
| 14:44 |
erlehmann |
because she is unhappy with how long reviews take. |
| 14:44 |
kabou |
reviews or testing? |
| 14:45 |
erlehmann |
but if you have looked at mcl2, reviews *always* take forever. or look at minetest, which has much more reviewers. |
| 14:45 |
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| 14:45 |
kabou |
the revert is just too huge to review |
| 14:45 |
kabou |
but how many are testing? |
| 14:45 |
kabou |
you're not, erlehmann |
| 14:45 |
erlehmann |
i am testing stuff all the time. |
| 14:45 |
kabou |
your own stuff |
| 14:45 |
erlehmann |
how do you think these bug fixes and test structures come to be? |
| 14:46 |
erlehmann |
and the testing instructions for which i am ridiculed |
| 14:46 |
erlehmann |
testing has to be included in reviews. otherwise you join what my friend calles the “LGTM community” |
| 14:46 |
erlehmann |
where you just comment LGTM because the code looks like it works |
| 14:46 |
erlehmann |
but no one ever even started the game |
| 14:46 |
erlehmann |
and boom crash lol |
| 14:47 |
erlehmann |
look, it is a spectrum. i put quality above everything else. kay puts features above everything else. cora is somewhere in between. |
| 14:47 |
kabou |
whatever. did you check if hoppers suck in items placed inside in mineclonia yet? |
| 14:47 |
erlehmann |
what do you mean? |
| 14:47 |
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| 14:47 |
kabou |
https://mister-muffin.de/p/Rrtk.png |
| 14:48 |
erlehmann |
i throw an item on top of the hopper and it gets sucked in? |
| 14:48 |
kabou |
see the flower item inside the top hopper? |
| 14:48 |
kabou |
it does not get sucked in |
| 14:48 |
kabou |
it should |
| 14:48 |
kabou |
btw the hopper has an empty slot |
| 14:49 |
erlehmann |
i just tested it. it works. but we never modified hoppers in mineclonia. |
| 14:49 |
kabou |
hmm |
| 14:49 |
erlehmann |
if i have to take a guess, it would be “hey, this is one of the things that got an LGTM approval and was never even tested a tiny bit” |
| 14:50 |
erlehmann |
users hate their *existing* machinery breaking down *much* more than not getting new features btw |
| 14:51 |
kabou |
erlehmann just checked and indeed, in mineclonia it works |
| 14:51 |
kabou |
time to make an issue |
| 14:51 |
erlehmann |
see, that is the value of not breaking things all the time |
| 14:51 |
erlehmann |
stuff keeps working |
| 14:51 |
rubenwardy |
we have release processes and devops to prevent these issues |
| 14:52 |
rubenwardy |
users want new features, and they also don't want bugs |
| 14:52 |
rubenwardy |
"we" meaning the software engineering industry |
| 14:52 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy the process in mineclonia is the same as in minetest. convince one or two members of the team that your change is good. and you have to give a test plan, i guess that diverges. |
| 14:52 |
kabou |
first im filing an issue then look at git blame |
| 14:52 |
erlehmann |
but i heard that if stuff keeps working it makes something a dead project! |
| 14:53 |
erlehmann |
the release process for mineclonia will be “speedrun the game a bunch” hehe |
| 14:54 |
erlehmann |
kabou see this kind of thing basically happened at mcl2 all the time and that lead to ppl being fed up with it. i hope cora can make sure it does not happen again. |
| 14:55 |
kabou |
well lets look at git blame where stuff got moved about lately |
| 14:55 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy it is trivial to add new features without adding new bugs. it is only that it is *work*. |
| 14:55 |
rubenwardy |
it's definitely not trivial |
| 14:55 |
erlehmann |
given the structure of mineclone2, it is. |
| 14:56 |
erlehmann |
most features are neatly separated. |
| 14:56 |
erlehmann |
and i believe mineclonia has a history of 10 months or so of fixing bugs and adding stuff without adding new game-breaking bugs or crashes. |
| 14:57 |
erlehmann |
the downside is that a PR takes more than a “LGTM” to be approved |
| 14:59 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy what i mean with trivial is the complexity, not the amount. the complexity of testing is relatively low. it is a lot of work. maybe that was a misunderstanding based on how i phrased it? |
| 15:18 |
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MinetestBot |
[git] SmallJoker -> minetest/minetest: Lua API documentation: Various fixes (#12059) f7311e0 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/f7311e0d97cb89bcb197a3e6b89e039151bb510f (2022-02-23T20:21:37Z) |
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| 22:08 |
kabou |
question about InvRef:allow_metadata_inventory_put() |
| 22:09 |
kabou |
is it called only when a player puts items in the inventory or also when a mod makes an InvRef:add_item() call ? |
| 22:09 |
kabou |
because the latter seems to not work for me ;-/ |
| 22:11 |
kabou |
same with InvRef:on_metadata_inventory_put() |
| 22:11 |
kabou |
doesn't trigger either on mod initiated add_item() |
| 22:12 |
kabou |
lua_api.txt is not specific about the context where these callbacks are run |
| 22:12 |
sfan5 |
mod calls don't trigger these, no |
| 22:14 |
kabou |
bummer |
| 22:14 |
kabou |
thanks for answering |
| 22:15 |
kabou |
now I get to rethink stuff |
| 22:16 |
kabou |
sfan5: wouldn't it be useful if these callbacks did trigger on mods? |
| 22:16 |
kabou |
or does that open cans of worms? |
| 22:16 |
kabou |
or was it simply never considered as a possibility? |
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MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> if your writing a game, just override the method to call the callbacks |
| 22:28 |
kabou |
oo, that's interesting, hadn't considered that |
| 22:29 |
kabou |
you mean overriding add_item() ? |
| 22:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> yeah |
| 22:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you can do it in a mod, but then everyone needs to dep on you |
| 22:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> for example in some content ive made ive overriden methods to take a player name or player data |
| 22:30 |
sfan5 |
kabou: what would the `player` argument contain? |
| 22:30 |
kabou |
mineclone2 has CORE mods |
| 22:30 |
sfan5 |
passing this on needs explicit support and I guess it wasn't considered |
| 22:30 |
kabou |
sfan5: 'nil' ? |
| 22:31 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> or you can set up for fake players which is a semi accepted standard |
| 22:31 |
sfan5 |
well if a mod does somethingh in response to a player action wouldn't that be wrong? |
| 22:32 |
kabou |
`player` would only be `nil` if the trigger for any invref callbacks was a mod |
| 22:33 |
kabou |
so the mod would have to check `player` value |
| 22:33 |
kabou |
Jonathon not sure how that fake player thing would work |
| 22:34 |
kabou |
never seen an example of it |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> the standard is there is a .fake_player property or whatever mods can check |
| 22:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> *semi standard |
| 22:34 |
kabou |
is it documented somewhere |
| 22:34 |
kabou |
? |
| 22:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> no, its a community thing |
| 22:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i think wuzzy does checks for it |
| 22:35 |
kabou |
can you point me to an implementation? |
| 22:36 |
kabou |
wuzzy is a creative guy |
| 22:36 |
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| 22:36 |
kabou |
he did lots of trickery in mineclone |
| 22:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> hbhunger |
| 22:36 |
kabou |
but no fake player stuff afaik |
| 22:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> and mineclones code is rather bad |
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| 22:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> fake player https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11477 relevant issue |
| 22:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> anyways, as much as fake player is used, i would still advocate that nil is the more proper way to do it |
| 22:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> https://repo.or.cz/minetest_hbhunger.git/blob/HEAD:/hunger.lua#l140 |
| 22:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> is_fake_player there we go |
| 22:39 |
kabou |
tnx! |
| 22:40 |
kabou |
oh i c it is not a wuzzy thing, it comes from pipeworks |
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MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> its used in a variety of different mods |
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