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| 04:10 |
erlehmann |
does anyone here have an automated setup to take screenshots of the same situation in different version of their mods? |
| 04:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> @Warr1024 ^ |
| 04:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> NodeCore's CDB screenshot is based on a world distributed in the repo. |
| 04:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It has some worldmods that freeze time, mock up stationary particle effects, set the camera position on join, etc. |
| 04:16 |
erlehmann |
oh neat |
| 04:17 |
erlehmann |
thanks! |
| 04:31 |
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| 05:07 |
Yad |
Any thoughts on how many nodes could be registered before slowdown begins? I noticed `lua_api.txt` mentions that the number of biomes needs to be kept far below the theoretical maximum or 2^16 |
| 05:08 |
rubenwardy |
You can register at most 2^15 nodes |
| 05:08 |
rubenwardy |
There's no performance cost in registering a node, other than memory |
| 05:24 |
erlehmann |
Yad mineclonia has a bit more than 1700 nodes and it runs fine on hardware that is 15 years old, so there is really little to worry about |
| 05:25 |
Yad |
erlehmann: thanks :) |
| 05:26 |
erlehmann |
i did indeed once make 16³ = 4096 items to test something though and that seemed to slow down minetest a bit when loading the game. |
| 05:27 |
erlehmann |
only then though, and my idea was misguided. |
| 05:27 |
erlehmann |
it had something to do with banner pattern preview |
| 05:28 |
erlehmann |
i.e. items can not change their texture, so i made a bunch of items with prerendered textures. turns out those were not useful. |
| 05:29 |
Yad |
erlehmann: hmm, that's encouraging, thanks. My reason for thinking I might want thousands of nodes, would be if I needed 16 or more of each for material levels and such |
| 05:29 |
Yad |
for example a node representing mud, but only 7/16 of a meter filled |
| 05:29 |
Yad |
basically different nodebox nodes |
| 05:30 |
erlehmann |
there might be better ways to do it. |
| 05:30 |
Yad |
I hope so :) |
| 05:30 |
Yad |
I thought of entities but that would be very costly. |
| 05:30 |
erlehmann |
also, try doing 1/8 instead of 1/16 |
| 05:30 |
erlehmann |
1/16 is not really interesting in gameplay terms |
| 05:30 |
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| 05:30 |
Yad |
Heh, I toned it down. My first thought was 1/256 :P |
| 05:31 |
erlehmann |
so you have a bunch of materials and yo uwant them to be multiplied by some constan |
| 05:31 |
erlehmann |
t |
| 05:31 |
erlehmann |
but how many materials can you have? |
| 05:31 |
Yad |
I haven't decided yet. |
| 05:32 |
erlehmann |
are you aware of this mod? https://content.minetest.net/packages/Calinou/moreblocks/ |
| 05:32 |
Yad |
I'm trying to get an idea of the technical limitations before I start coding it. |
| 05:32 |
erlehmann |
well the best code is one never written |
| 05:32 |
erlehmann |
for example, because someone else wrote it already |
| 05:32 |
Yad |
hahah, true! |
| 05:33 |
Yad |
I think I have heard of that mod in several Minetest Game worlds. |
| 05:33 |
erlehmann |
check this out too https://content.minetest.net/packages/karamel/naturalslopeslib/ |
| 05:33 |
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| 05:33 |
Yad |
erlehmann: Oh yes, I love Natural Slopes Library --- we make use of that in continuing the development of Dokimi's Exile. |
| 05:34 |
erlehmann |
oh, you are a dev of exile? i love that game, but it is too hard for me |
| 05:34 |
erlehmann |
it is a fine challenge though |
| 05:34 |
Yad |
erlehmann: Oooh! ^^ Yep I love the realism. |
| 05:35 |
erlehmann |
it's not about realism for me, it's about actions having consequences |
| 05:35 |
Yad |
I suppose I actually am a dev there, yes, if my fork from which Mantar accepts pull requests counts. :D |
| 05:35 |
erlehmann |
probably lol |
| 05:35 |
Yad |
a contributor at lest. :) |
| 05:35 |
erlehmann |
so exile is one of the few open world virtual lego games which is not really a neoliberal utopia |
| 05:35 |
Yad |
*at least |
| 05:36 |
Yad |
Hahahah, yeah it's pre-civilization. |
| 05:36 |
Yad |
Though we have the mystery of what way of life the ancients had. |
| 05:37 |
erlehmann |
civilization or not is not the issue. in many other games, you have these robinsonade-like qualities: 1. work always pays off eventually 2. the world is fair 3. the player will defeat the world and reshape it according to their views 4. resistance is illegitimate 5. native animals and civiization are there to be exploited |
| 05:37 |
erlehmann |
in exile, work often does not pay off. because you die. |
| 05:38 |
erlehmann |
also in exile, the world is not remotely fair. you can just freeze to death through no fault of your own. |
| 05:38 |
erlehmann |
reshaping the world is hard while trying to stay alive too. what is considered a “noob house” in many other games is a real achievement in exile. |
| 05:39 |
Yad |
Hmm, I like your interpretation of 3. whereas you often die, thus you're seeing each new character as a new player of sorts. |
| 05:39 |
erlehmann |
resistance? ha! the elements are your enemy |
| 05:39 |
Yad |
Yes, making bricks is not easy! :D |
| 05:39 |
erlehmann |
and native animals are dangerous and best be avoided |
| 05:39 |
Yad |
Best avoid yes, but rather easy to avoid. |
| 05:39 |
erlehmann |
contrast this with the majority of minetest games where the only real danger comes from other players |
| 05:40 |
Yad |
5. we do plan to make more aggressive species |
| 05:40 |
Yad |
Yes, and in Exile players are encouraged by the nature of the world, to work together. |
| 05:40 |
erlehmann |
well, the thing is: exploiting the resources can be as easy as going to a village and taking all its stuff out of the chests |
| 05:40 |
erlehmann |
this happens in repixture, it happens in the mcl games, it happens in literally every game where you have villages |
| 05:41 |
Yad |
That's another good point, in that we don't have any magic force-fields of "protection" |
| 05:41 |
erlehmann |
repixture is a bit more on the nose with it, having locked chests in villages |
| 05:41 |
Yad |
Oh, yeah the Minecraft-style villages are rather silly. |
| 05:42 |
erlehmann |
it's a colonial fantasy |
| 05:42 |
erlehmann |
complete with enslaving natives. a friend of mine made a little prison for the villagers to trade with. |
| 05:42 |
Yad |
I suppose it is congruent with one, though I don't assume I can read the minds of the Miencraft developers. |
| 05:42 |
erlehmann |
the game mechanics are, of course, setup so that this is the course of action. |
| 05:42 |
erlehmann |
in the same way that in sim city you have to set your taxes a specific way |
| 05:43 |
erlehmann |
and have to fund police with a set amount of money or else your city starts crumbling |
| 05:43 |
Yad |
Well don't get me started on Sim City and how it assumes everything is about flows. |
| 05:43 |
Yad |
Or whatever that's called. |
| 05:43 |
erlehmann |
haha |
| 05:43 |
erlehmann |
i liked the water flow system actually |
| 05:43 |
Yad |
:) |
| 05:43 |
erlehmann |
pretty cool minigame |
| 05:44 |
erlehmann |
but what i want to say is: the narrative framework of a game conveys a specific worldview |
| 05:44 |
Yad |
Indeed. |
| 05:44 |
erlehmann |
and in an open-world game without real enemies it is *really* hard to avoid making it a robinsonade or neoliberal fantasy |
| 05:44 |
erlehmann |
do you know schiffbruch.exe or cataclysm: dark days ahead? |
| 05:45 |
Yad |
It can be tempting to condemn some types of fantasies that fail to conform to the vogue of moral thinking in one's own social circle, but I'm especially interested in your perspective because contemplating such presuppositions helps me to imagine new ways of making worlds. |
| 05:45 |
Yad |
I'm not familiar with either of those, no. |
| 05:48 |
erlehmann |
schiffbruch is an old 2d iso game where you strand on an island |
| 05:48 |
erlehmann |
if you like exile, you might like it |
| 05:48 |
Yad |
Ah nice. :D |
| 05:48 |
Yad |
Thanks. |
| 05:49 |
erlehmann |
https://www.dplate.de/games/schiffbruch https://github.com/eXpl0it3r/Schiffbruch |
| 05:49 |
erlehmann |
i remember having played it a long time ago |
| 05:49 |
erlehmann |
“cataclysm: dark days ahead” is a roguelike: “you wake up in an abandoned house, zombies are closing in from the outside, good luck” |
| 05:50 |
erlehmann |
it can be played in text variant or as 2d iso or 2d tile game |
| 05:50 |
erlehmann |
so the thing is |
| 05:50 |
erlehmann |
cdda has a thing i have rarely seen in other games |
| 05:50 |
erlehmann |
namely that the game mechanics often do not need a manual |
| 05:51 |
erlehmann |
for example, you start in spring, i think. the world is cold. so my first character in cdda had a lighter. |
| 05:51 |
erlehmann |
computer games logic says it is permissible to make a fire right where you are |
| 05:52 |
erlehmann |
only that it was a closed room and my very first character died of smoe inhalation |
| 05:52 |
erlehmann |
similarly: be on a bike and ram a bush? you'll fly over the handle |
| 05:52 |
erlehmann |
or … an acquaintance once complained that it is really hard to avoid zombies. turnns out he shot every zombie. and they can hear. |
| 05:53 |
erlehmann |
in fact, animals in the game can also *smell* you. you can use debug mode to see that. |
| 05:53 |
Yad |
Nice. Have you played A Dark Room (ADR)? It's an open-source text-based game which I found surprisingly emotional uncovering tragic mysteries. |
| 05:53 |
erlehmann |
hurt a child zombie? morale penalty |
| 05:53 |
erlehmann |
no i have not |
| 05:53 |
erlehmann |
is it one of these inform 7 things? |
| 05:53 |
erlehmann |
i have played kerkerkruip |
| 05:53 |
Yad |
I'm not sure. |
| 05:53 |
Yad |
I use exploiting-the-natives fantasies in several of the game designs I'm tinkering with in my head recently, but the industrial "farming" kind of exploitation seems to me just like lazy and broken game design. |
| 05:54 |
erlehmann |
it is human nature |
| 05:54 |
erlehmann |
look at history |
| 05:54 |
erlehmann |
humans find one thing, use it |
| 05:54 |
Yad |
I would point at vampire stories for an analogy. |
| 05:54 |
erlehmann |
before you look, they use it at scale |
| 05:55 |
Yad |
As to the kind of exploitation fantasy I would enjoy developing for Minetest. |
| 05:55 |
Yad |
Probably not literally vampires. I'm not fond of them as a theme. |
| 05:55 |
erlehmann |
oh, there are several vampire stories you can copy bits from though |
| 05:55 |
erlehmann |
you can look at magic the gathering for inpsiration |
| 05:55 |
erlehmann |
they have really good worldbuilding |
| 05:55 |
Yad |
You're reminding of how Nosfaratu was made up to avoid infringing on Dracula. xD |
| 05:56 |
Yad |
I even remember Baron Singar, so yeah. :P |
| 05:56 |
erlehmann |
no, i meen newer magic |
| 05:57 |
Yad |
Yes I was joking about how they've had major vampire characters all the way back to Homelands. |
| 05:57 |
Yad |
The set they couldn't give away xD |
| 05:57 |
erlehmann |
in one world (ixalan), the vampires are cursed, but they are religious fanatics. they will only drink the blood of enemies of the church, but thed kinda need the crusade for that. |
| 05:57 |
Yad |
But my point is that to work well in a Minetest game, an exploitation fantasy I would prefer would involve being more like a hunter than a factory builder. |
| 05:58 |
erlehmann |
but in another (innistrad) the vampires threaten to eat the livestock (humans), so one of them (sorin) makes a protector angel that becomes stronger, the fewer humans are there (or something like that) and the rest of the vampires hate him for it. |
| 05:58 |
Yad |
So how do the Eldrazi connect with the plane of Innistrad? |
| 05:58 |
erlehmann |
in gameplay terms, it is probably more interesting to be a human in a monster world at first, but make it posisble to be turned |
| 05:58 |
erlehmann |
the moon |
| 05:59 |
Yad |
Oooh, they're from its moon? |
| 05:59 |
erlehmann |
no |
| 05:59 |
erlehmann |
emrakul is imprisoned in the moon |
| 05:59 |
Yad |
Its moon attracts them from beyond the plane? Oh okay I get it now. :D |
| 05:59 |
erlehmann |
no, nahiri put some beacons there so the unholy noodle meatball monster emmy comes there |
| 05:59 |
Yad |
So when Emrakul is freed, it summons more Eldrazi and their minions? |
| 06:00 |
erlehmann |
well, in one story, ugin is quoted: there are not multitudes of eldrazi, as they are interdimensional beings |
| 06:00 |
Yad |
That's the one of the thrills of a procedural generated world |
| 06:00 |
erlehmann |
if a human put fingers, but not the whole hand in a pool |
| 06:00 |
Yad |
hunting for rare lifeforms to exploit |
| 06:00 |
erlehmann |
then the fishies see 5 new entities |
| 06:00 |
erlehmann |
but it is only a human |
| 06:01 |
erlehmann |
the fishes can not defeat the human, probably |
| 06:01 |
erlehmann |
but they can fingertrap it or poison it |
| 06:01 |
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| 06:01 |
erlehmann |
still, it is not 5 humans, it is only 1 |
| 06:01 |
Yad |
if I can just built a overpowered factory for everything, it's like the whole game takes place in one 80x80x80 mapchunk |
| 06:01 |
erlehmann |
well skyblock is literally that in the end |
| 06:02 |
erlehmann |
the opposite of “labor eventually pays off” in gameplay terms is “actions have grave consequences” |
| 06:02 |
erlehmann |
for example, in cataclysm: dark days ahead, each body part has HP |
| 06:02 |
erlehmann |
so you can indeed break your leg |
| 06:02 |
erlehmann |
and survive |
| 06:02 |
erlehmann |
in a postaocalyptic wasteland |
| 06:02 |
erlehmann |
well, usually not for long |
| 06:02 |
erlehmann |
but you know |
| 06:03 |
erlehmann |
it is possible to heal it |
| 06:03 |
erlehmann |
also in CDDA, being bitten by a zombie is not a problem because it is a zombie |
| 06:03 |
erlehmann |
the problem is being bitten |
| 06:03 |
erlehmann |
i.e. you should clean and disinfect the wound and have antibiotics on hand |
| 06:03 |
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| 06:03 |
Yad |
I get the feeling you enjoy vampires. |
| 06:03 |
erlehmann |
Yad which features did you add to exile? |
| 06:04 |
erlehmann |
no, but i enjoy the idea of making humans central characters, but weak. not powerful, as in minecraft. |
| 06:04 |
Yad |
I changed the `airboat` controls slightly. xD |
| 06:04 |
erlehmann |
exile humans are weak |
| 06:04 |
erlehmann |
there is an airboat? o.0 |
| 06:04 |
Yad |
Oh sorry, spoiler warning. |
| 06:04 |
erlehmann |
i never got that far in exile |
| 06:04 |
Yad |
:D |
| 06:04 |
erlehmann |
wow |
| 06:04 |
erlehmann |
is it, like, a hot air balloon? |
| 06:05 |
Yad |
Displacement-wise, it does appear heavier than air. |
| 06:05 |
erlehmann |
btw https://cataclysmdda.org/ |
| 06:05 |
erlehmann |
i bet playing schiffbruch first and CDDA afterwards will give you some ideas about what to add to exile |
| 06:05 |
Yad |
We have a public server for Exile now, called Land of Catastrophe. |
| 06:06 |
erlehmann |
oh, i should come by i guess |
| 06:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> I'm expecting some HL2-style floaty ass controls for that airboat |
| 06:06 |
Yad |
erlehmann: nice |
| 06:06 |
Yad |
Ben: Well, at this point the airboat is rather nerf'd considering the tech level it came from. Can't fly fast. |
| 06:06 |
erlehmann |
Yad in CDDA if you have a weird idea, it may just work. for example: if you have a spraycan, lighter and tape – yes, you can actually make a mini flamer |
| 06:07 |
Yad |
erlehmann: hahah |
| 06:07 |
erlehmann |
also i believe there is an entire bow and arrow shooting subsystem and if you know cooking and chemistry you can make meth or something |
| 06:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Yad: Ah, so its a flying boat, not a fan powered boat |
| 06:07 |
erlehmann |
oh and also it is one of the few games where you can actually construct cars |
| 06:07 |
Yad |
Most of my other contributions to Exile have been cosmetic within the code. |
| 06:07 |
erlehmann |
one of the few roguelike games |
| 06:08 |
erlehmann |
well, most cool things are really small in the end |
| 06:08 |
Yad |
Such as optimizing things with `for` loops. |
| 06:08 |
erlehmann |
i took hours to make the map markers for mineclonia and i am still not finished |
| 06:08 |
erlehmann |
(right click on a banner with a map to get a marker on the map) |
| 06:08 |
Yad |
I've mostly been *removing* code, I suppose you could say. In terms of the total number of lines. |
| 06:09 |
erlehmann |
Yad, that's a classic https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt |
| 06:12 |
Yad |
erlehmann: Heheh, thanks. |
| 06:21 |
erlehmann |
Yad are bodily functions going to be added to exile? in cataclysm DDA this is the big thing they never want to add i think. |
| 06:21 |
erlehmann |
i mean, since you love the game for its realism |
| 06:21 |
erlehmann |
i had a CDDA character with vitamin b12 deficiency |
| 06:21 |
erlehmann |
so i ventured out to look for nuts in bushes or something |
| 06:22 |
erlehmann |
and encountered some giant insects |
| 06:22 |
erlehmann |
bc the premise of the game is “all apocalypses occurred at the same time” |
| 06:22 |
Yad |
erlehmann: We've talked about biological reproduction and the consensus seems to be that new characters only arrive from being exiled. |
| 06:23 |
erlehmann |
i meen pooping though lol |
| 06:23 |
erlehmann |
but it would be funny if new players could only enter the server as a baby |
| 06:23 |
erlehmann |
1 hour 1 life does it like that i think |
| 06:23 |
Yad |
erlehmann: As someone put it to me "I don't want to have to spawn in order to spawn." |
| 06:23 |
erlehmann |
it also has a unique chat mechanic |
| 06:24 |
Yad |
Yes I mentioned One Hour, One Life during that conversation actually :) |
| 06:24 |
erlehmann |
oh! |
| 06:24 |
Yad |
^^ |
| 06:24 |
erlehmann |
i like the chat thing |
| 06:24 |
erlehmann |
like, a one minute old player is one year in game |
| 06:24 |
erlehmann |
and can only say one letter |
| 06:24 |
erlehmann |
like a bebbe |
| 06:24 |
Yad |
that conversation = where I was talking to other Exile participants |
| 06:24 |
Yad |
ah yes |
| 06:25 |
Yad |
The number of letters you're allowed to chat is based on your age. |
| 06:25 |
erlehmann |
also funny how they handle griefers |
| 06:25 |
erlehmann |
ppl can curse other ppl |
| 06:25 |
Yad |
I have never managed to play One Hour, One Life, but it's quite riveting to watch replays. |
| 06:25 |
erlehmann |
and if you are cursed enough |
| 06:25 |
erlehmann |
you get exiled |
| 06:25 |
Yad |
hahah |
| 06:25 |
erlehmann |
to a village with all the cursed ppl |
| 06:26 |
erlehmann |
and to go back to the normal game you have to play 24h or something, like an actually long time |
| 06:26 |
erlehmann |
but you have to play it in the village with all the other players who got send there for lying, stealing, and murdering |
| 06:26 |
erlehmann |
i once saw a delightfully salty post on the forums |
| 06:26 |
erlehmann |
where someone was really unhappy |
| 06:27 |
erlehmann |
bc they only wanted to TEST what happens when they stab everyone |
| 06:27 |
Yad |
hahah |
| 06:27 |
Yad |
As for waste management, in Exile, we are the descendants of a fallen civilization which had access to genetic engineering, so it's not impossible to speculate that we have perfect digestion and produce no waste. |
| 06:27 |
erlehmann |
so it is like the toilets on the starship enterprise |
| 06:28 |
Yad |
Perhaps. |
| 06:28 |
erlehmann |
not existent |
| 06:28 |
Yad |
I would speculate they use transporters. |
| 06:28 |
Yad |
Which...do you mind more Exile spoilers? |
| 06:28 |
erlehmann |
spoiler me as much as you want |
| 06:28 |
Yad |
:D |
| 06:28 |
Yad |
We also have teleportation in Exile already. |
| 06:28 |
erlehmann |
i'm not going to reach the tech level required for *surviving* anyway |
| 06:29 |
Yad |
In fact, in the newer versions there's introductory text explaining that you got teleported into the land of exile. |
| 06:29 |
erlehmann |
regarding poop teleportation, there is this meme that this would be the way to win the kobayashi maru test |
| 06:29 |
erlehmann |
just fill the klingon ships with it |
| 06:29 |
Yad |
But I'd go for the perfect digestion explination since you don't have access to a teleporter for yourself |
| 06:30 |
erlehmann |
it is a good way to detect star trek nerds, because they always zero in on the fact that the shields would prevent it |
| 06:30 |
erlehmann |
whereas normal people look weird at you bc poop teleportation |
| 06:30 |
Yad |
erlehmann: According to the Kelvin timeline, the Klingon ships had their shields up until Kirk's subroutine altered the program. |
| 06:30 |
Yad |
LOL |
| 06:30 |
Yad |
I walked right into that. |
| 06:30 |
erlehmann |
yes |
| 06:30 |
Yad |
Well played. |
| 06:31 |
Yad |
I was so nerdly focused on typing my rebuttal I failed to notice you predicting my response. |
| 06:31 |
erlehmann |
this is like when i asked a friend of mine how to detect arch linux users |
| 06:31 |
erlehmann |
she was like, i don't know |
| 06:31 |
erlehmann |
and i'm like: they are gonna tell you (“btw i use arch” is a meme by now) |
| 06:31 |
erlehmann |
in a very slightly raised voice she reacted with “hey! *I* use arch!” |
| 06:31 |
erlehmann |
and i was like q.e.d. |
| 06:32 |
Yad |
I aspire to use Manjaro. |
| 06:32 |
erlehmann |
so about star trek |
| 06:32 |
Yad |
hahahah |
| 06:32 |
erlehmann |
i think it is weird that they call the political officer on the enterprise “counselor” |
| 06:33 |
* Yad |
rolls eyes |
| 06:33 |
erlehmann |
like in every other science fiction story they are called commissar |
| 06:33 |
erlehmann |
most notably, warhammer 40k |
| 06:33 |
Yad |
hah |
| 06:33 |
Yad |
Are you talking about the mirror universe then? |
| 06:33 |
Yad |
Where there is a terran *empire* |
| 06:33 |
erlehmann |
not at all |
| 06:34 |
erlehmann |
if deanna troi is not a political officer, why does she have a chair on the bridge? |
| 06:34 |
erlehmann |
in which she never sits, btw |
| 06:34 |
erlehmann |
well, sometimes |
| 06:35 |
Yad |
She's supposed to spy on the emotions of whomever is on the main viewer. |
| 06:35 |
erlehmann |
i am talking TNG of course. and data is next in command after riker. |
| 06:35 |
Yad |
Yet he sits at the conn. |
| 06:35 |
erlehmann |
also why is she allowed in the briefing room |
| 06:36 |
erlehmann |
and why is she allowed to wear pyjamas everywhere |
| 06:36 |
Yad |
That seems to have been due to something about Picard. |
| 06:37 |
Yad |
You'll notice Jellico has her wear as standard uniform. |
| 06:37 |
erlehmann |
i think a mind reader is a perfect person to sit close to the captain |
| 06:37 |
erlehmann |
to make sure he only thinks correct thoughts |
| 06:37 |
Yad |
heheheh |
| 06:37 |
erlehmann |
like come on, in the future telepathy is going to work via a big TV screen you need to sit in front of? |
| 06:38 |
Yad |
Makes one wonder why they assigned a *half*-Betazoid to the flagship. |
| 06:38 |
erlehmann |
if you believe that, i have an NFT of the brooklyn bridge to sell to you |
| 06:38 |
erlehmann |
well, having trolled that much: have you seen “the orville”? |
| 06:38 |
Yad |
I want to make blockchain-based voxel worlds :P |
| 06:38 |
erlehmann |
lol please no |
| 06:38 |
Yad |
But I think that would be more condusive to fungible tokens because of the concept of "dust" :D |
| 06:39 |
erlehmann |
dust? |
| 06:39 |
Yad |
0.00 000 001 |
| 06:39 |
erlehmann |
you mean the stuff i collect in my flat on surfaces? |
| 06:39 |
erlehmann |
yes they are very small |
| 06:39 |
erlehmann |
what has dust to do with blocks and chains |
| 06:40 |
Yad |
This is the most canonical source I'm familiar with for when councilors were introduced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMasSzFXaKQ |
| 06:41 |
erlehmann |
back to game design: what i'd like to knowabout exile, where is the teleportation |
| 06:41 |
Yad |
erlehmann: It's about a kilometer under the surface. |
| 06:41 |
erlehmann |
and how do you raise the tech level to get to flying ships and teleports anyway |
| 06:41 |
erlehmann |
ohhhh |
| 06:42 |
Yad |
^_^ |
| 06:42 |
erlehmann |
so there are ruins under the world!? |
| 06:42 |
Yad |
Yes! :D |
| 06:42 |
erlehmann |
that's interesting |
| 06:42 |
Yad |
:) |
| 06:42 |
erlehmann |
is it like geomoria? |
| 06:42 |
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| 06:42 |
Yad |
It's more like Atlantis. |
| 06:43 |
erlehmann |
is there some way to not die in exile? like, an early-game todo thing? |
| 06:43 |
Yad |
Weave clothes. |
| 06:43 |
erlehmann |
i always thought clothes are optional |
| 06:43 |
erlehmann |
but now that i think about it |
| 06:43 |
erlehmann |
the exile world is pretty cold |
| 06:44 |
Yad |
They are. I've proven you can survive without sleep in Exile too, as long as you have the right ambient air temperature. |
| 06:44 |
erlehmann |
lol |
| 06:44 |
Yad |
:) |
| 06:44 |
erlehmann |
sleepless in exile |
| 06:44 |
erlehmann |
sounds like a nightmare |
| 06:44 |
erlehmann |
oh btw, the season mechanic in CDDA is pretty cool |
| 06:44 |
Yad |
Yeah, much better to have a bed so you can organize your shelves while resting. |
| 06:44 |
erlehmann |
so at first it is spring |
| 06:44 |
Yad |
Regarding clothes: You need to get your comfortable-rest temperature down as close to 11 C as possible. |
| 06:45 |
erlehmann |
it's cold, but not too cold |
| 06:45 |
erlehmann |
then it is summer, it is hot, you can't wear too much |
| 06:45 |
erlehmann |
then autumn, then winter |
| 06:45 |
erlehmann |
if you survive the winter, you have understood the basic game |
| 06:46 |
erlehmann |
Yad who are you on forums? |
| 06:47 |
erlehmann |
i just looked at an old exile thread and there are a lot of player bones https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=395914#p395914 |
| 06:48 |
Yad |
erlehmann: Regarding Minetest, I'm only on IRC and GitHub. |
| 06:48 |
erlehmann |
ok |
| 06:50 |
Yad |
I suppose that's a good way of looking at it. |
| 06:50 |
Yad |
But I tend to think more in terms of food production. |
| 06:50 |
Yad |
At first you're going to need to be largely arboreal. |
| 06:51 |
Yad |
Relying on trees for shelter, sticks, and food. |
| 06:51 |
erlehmann |
you should probably play some CDDA, really |
| 06:51 |
Yad |
:D |
| 06:52 |
erlehmann |
you can play it like hiding in the city, looting storage cabinets |
| 06:52 |
erlehmann |
or you can try to live outside, where you can make an old farm work or so |
| 06:53 |
erlehmann |
and there are underground labs |
| 06:53 |
erlehmann |
where you can find mutagen |
| 06:54 |
erlehmann |
to become a furry or something |
| 06:54 |
erlehmann |
the labs go really deep |
| 06:54 |
Yad |
ooooh |
| 06:54 |
erlehmann |
you can also start in a lab. i have never found the surface then. only a small area where i could see the sky. |
| 06:54 |
Yad |
now that you mention becoming a furry, it gets interesting :P |
| 06:55 |
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| 06:56 |
Yad |
But yeah, I suppose I am an Exile developer. I just want to show due respect to Mantar as maintainer. He's a good captain of this ship. :) |
| 06:57 |
erlehmann |
Yad https://cddawiki.chezzo.com/cdda_wiki/index.php?title=Mutation |
| 06:57 |
erlehmann |
> Any time you mutate, you have a 2/3 chance to get any type of mutation and a 1/3 chance to get a "bad" mutation, though not all "bad" mutations are truly bad ones and not all "good" mutations are equally desirable. |
| 06:57 |
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| 06:57 |
erlehmann |
> The Robust Genetics trait improves your chances of getting a "good" mutation. For the spoiled, Robust Genetics works by changing the 1/3 chance to receive a "bad" mutation to a 1/3 chance to receive a "good" mutation. |
| 06:58 |
erlehmann |
so another thing in CDDA is that you have character points, like in a proper RPG |
| 06:58 |
erlehmann |
only that you can have a malus like “short-sighted” that is not a problem at first |
| 06:58 |
erlehmann |
because you have glasses! |
| 06:58 |
erlehmann |
but it's not very good once you lose those |
| 06:59 |
Yad |
I remember when I was an early-teen, designing a SimAnt-like game in my head which involved collecting genetic traits from the environment which you could incorporate into the queen's abilities to produce different castes of ants. |
| 07:00 |
erlehmann |
> Mycus: Play around with fungus to get this. You are now part of the fungal invasion of earth. Traitor!. Not obtainable using normal mutagens. Locks you out of other mutations. |
| 07:01 |
erlehmann |
> Cattle: You're a huge, lumbering herbivore with a lot of health, a powerful natural attack and the ability to eat bushes. Plays like a less restrictive version of Plant. |
| 07:01 |
erlehmann |
wow |
| 07:01 |
erlehmann |
i think i never really ventured into this |
| 07:01 |
erlehmann |
only having smaller mutations |
| 07:01 |
erlehmann |
like seeing in the dark or so? i do not remember well |
| 07:02 |
erlehmann |
https://cddawiki.chezzo.com/cdda_wiki/index.php?title=Dreams |
| 07:02 |
erlehmann |
> Once you are sufficiently mutated, you will begin receiving dreams, relating to how strongly mutated you are toward your highest category. |
| 07:02 |
erlehmann |
Yad do you know if there is a multiplayer game where if you sleep you enter a dream world? |
| 07:02 |
erlehmann |
which runs on dream logic? |
| 07:05 |
Yad |
I find the name CDDA amusing because that also stands for Compact Disc Digital Audio. :) |
| 07:06 |
erlehmann |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cataclysm:_Dark_Days_Ahead btw |
| 07:06 |
Yad |
Yes, it's just something most people didn't notice. It's not CDA it's CD-DA |
| 07:06 |
Yad |
but I digress :) |
| 07:07 |
erlehmann |
> the player is free to explore the procedurally generated map, clear areas of monsters, work with NPCs, and build shelters and vehicles. The gameplay is mainly based on day-to-day survival, and the game tracks parameters like hunger, thirst, morale, illness and temperature which the player must manage to stay alive. |
| 07:07 |
erlehmann |
sounds like exile, except for the vehicles and npcs and monsters |
| 07:07 |
erlehmann |
i think CDDA actually has factions and a quest system |
| 07:07 |
erlehmann |
but for you to even get that far you need to actually find other survivors |
| 07:07 |
erlehmann |
which is a challenge in itself |
| 07:08 |
erlehmann |
Yad look at this crafting menu! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Cataclysm_crafting_menu_.png |
| 07:09 |
erlehmann |
Yad and at this vehicle construction menu https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Vehicle_construct.png |
| 07:10 |
erlehmann |
> wheels: enough |
| 07:10 |
Yad |
Is that ASCII rather than "tiles"? |
| 07:10 |
Yad |
I notice there are two different builds. |
| 07:11 |
erlehmann |
i prefer the ascii build |
| 07:12 |
erlehmann |
small green z? zombie child. blue Z? zombie police |
| 07:12 |
Yad |
heheh |
| 07:12 |
Yad |
sounds like Dwaf Fortress time >:D |
| 07:12 |
Yad |
(the infeasiblity of which is one of the reasons I love Minetest) |
| 07:14 |
erlehmann |
in cdda you can also do what i did and wall off an area between two houses |
| 07:14 |
erlehmann |
to use as a garden |
| 07:14 |
Yad |
Nice. |
| 07:20 |
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| 07:53 |
definitelya |
> However, there is one exception for secondary embedded processors. The exception applies to software delivered inside auxiliary and low-level processors and FPGAs, within which software installation is not intended after the user obtains the product. This can include, for instance, microcode inside a processor, firmware built into an I/O device, or the gate pattern of an FPGA. The software in such secondary processors |
| 07:53 |
definitelya |
does not count as product software. |
| 07:54 |
definitelya |
https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria |
| 07:54 |
definitelya |
Found out about this on https://libreboot.org/news/policy.html |
| 07:55 |
definitelya |
Looks like the FSF chose not to be an ally in the hardware/ firmware fight for freedom. Sorry for brief offtopic, just a quick PSA. |
| 07:57 |
definitelya |
Now back to building my janky block game! |
| 08:02 |
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| 08:16 |
erlehmann |
definitelya i have talked to stallman once and i think he thought it was infeasible to have truly free hardware, since you still need a fab |
| 08:16 |
erlehmann |
“maybe once we have star-trek style replicators” he said |
| 08:16 |
erlehmann |
i think the important bit about it is that usually the firmware can not be updated and it can not commnicate with the outside world |
| 08:17 |
erlehmann |
so the level of control was deemed acceptable |
| 08:18 |
definitelya |
erlehmann: Probably true for hardware, yes. |
| 08:19 |
definitelya |
The FSF's bit about firmware glows from miles away, though. |
| 08:19 |
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Gustavo6046 |
How come the default FOV is only 72deg, *and* considered an advanced setting? |
| 09:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> minetest |
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Gustavo6046 |
wait, the netcode is lockstep? o.o |
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MTDiscord |
<luatic> Is https://forum2.minetest.net/ the same as https://forum.minetest.net/ ? |
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| 12:12 |
celeron55 |
sometimes is, sometimes isn't |
| 12:12 |
celeron55 |
don't use it |
| 12:13 |
appguru |
I just saw TenPlus1 linking a zip from there so I wondered ;) |
| 12:13 |
celeron55 |
ok i'll remove it then, it definitely shouldn't be used |
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celeron55 |
i have no idea how anyone has even gotten the idea of linking something using that address |
| 12:14 |
celeron55 |
i certainly haven't linked it anywhere and that's for a purpose |
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| 16:48 |
kabou |
what is the purpose of the singlenode mapgen? |
| 16:49 |
kabou |
is that documented somewhere? |
| 16:50 |
sfan5 |
if you don't want the engine interfering because you want to place everything by hand or from Lua that's the mapgen for you |
| 16:51 |
kabou |
allright |
| 16:51 |
sfan5 |
or if you have an old world that you want to remain like that no matter (but that's almost the same usecase) |
| 16:52 |
kabou |
I figured that it was likely some kind of template |
| 16:52 |
kabou |
but I couldn't find a description of its purpose |
| 16:53 |
kabou |
and it's kinda confusing if you generate a new world with it and you end up falling and dieing over and over |
| 16:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> there are mods that can put a small platform for you to start building on if you want a completely void world for creative |
| 16:54 |
kabou |
like skyblock |
| 16:54 |
kabou |
to name a famous mc example |
| 16:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> but usually with vanilla games it's completely empty unless the game uses custom lua mapgen and then singlenode is the only mapgen |
| 16:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> honestly I'd love for mods and games to define their own mapgens so it would be more intuitive for the player |
| 16:55 |
sfan5 |
good idea indeed |
| 16:55 |
sfan5 |
MTG could place a small platform and inform the player what they just did and why it's that way and what to do if that was unintended |
| 16:57 |
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| 16:57 |
kabou |
or games could predefine the allowed mapgens? |
| 16:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> allowed mapgens are already configurable per game |
| 16:58 |
kabou |
anyone who can craft their own lua mapgens can undo the presets |
| 16:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> anyways in regards to generating a tiny platform in MTG singlenode by default, yeah that would be nice... as long as it will always give over control to any other mod that wants to use it for custom lua mapgen |
| 17:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> and preferrably it would do this with all custom mapgen mods created previously, with no edits required. would this even be possible? in terms of detecting a lua mapgen mod |
| 17:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> With some assumptions maybe |
| 17:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Like, you could check for extra on_generated callbacks |
| 17:04 |
erlehmann |
uh, i use singlenode for testing, how would i get an empty mtg world if the platform were there? |
| 17:05 |
erlehmann |
opening a formspec with a message would probably be less disruptive |
| 17:05 |
sfan5 |
nodes are commonly diggable |
| 17:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> honestly a message in the main menu about singlenode is probably better than messing with the world |
| 17:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> there is also all that completely empty create world dialog space when singlenode is selected, could put something there |
| 17:06 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 testing as in, atuomated testing |
| 17:06 |
erlehmann |
automated |
| 17:06 |
sfan5 |
an API would be added to inhibit that obviously |
| 17:07 |
erlehmann |
i think messing with the world is bad. |
| 17:07 |
erlehmann |
Jonathon and Sublayer plank are right, there is enough free space in the menu |
| 17:07 |
erlehmann |
(a formspec would also inhibit testing, i take that suggestion back) |
| 17:07 |
sfan5 |
doing this also solves the problem of creating a singlenode world and being unable to place anything without third-party mods |
| 17:09 |
erlehmann |
i want to propose a salomonic solution: add wuzzys platform mod to the singlenode mapgen stuff by default if no other mods are installed, but do not make it part of mtg so it can be disabled easily. |
| 17:09 |
kabou |
It all sounds to me as if singlenode "mapgen" is actually "no mapgen" |
| 17:09 |
erlehmann |
singlenode is not “no mapgen”, it fills the entire map with a single node |
| 17:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> well it's more like a blank canvas |
| 17:10 |
erlehmann |
in fact, i have been using singlenode with other types of nodes |
| 17:10 |
kabou |
while that is tremendously useful in certain situations, it is mightily confusing for users |
| 17:10 |
erlehmann |
for example, a space game can use singlenode |
| 17:10 |
erlehmann |
(and has no use for a platform) |
| 17:10 |
sfan5 |
you are arguing against your own solution |
| 17:11 |
kabou |
so singlenode is really airnode |
| 17:11 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 “if no other mods are installed” |
| 17:11 |
kabou |
airworld |
| 17:11 |
erlehmann |
also, i have used singlenode with stones and used wuzzy mineshafts |
| 17:11 |
erlehmann |
so that i had a world entirely out of stone with mineshafts in it |
| 17:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "no other mods" than what? |
| 17:12 |
sfan5 |
clearly erlehmann wants to solve the halting problem so the engine can detect whether a mapgen mod is present or not |
| 17:12 |
erlehmann |
well, my solution is shit i guess. but all the others that modify the world are too, obviously. |
| 17:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> how are you going to tell a mapgen mod from other mods? |
| 17:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> kabou: in vanilla MTG, yes. but there are for example lua mapgen mods that make use of it for custom terrain |
| 17:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> such as https://content.minetest.net/packages/Termos/islands/ |
| 17:12 |
erlehmann |
not at all. i retract my solution and go back to “Jonathon and Sublayer plank are right, there is enough free space for a mapgen description in the main menu” |
| 17:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I hadn't really thought about it before, but maybe what I might end up doing is just detect if mapgen is singlenode AND the player is continuously falling with nothing below them for a sufficient amount of time, then just hit them with a message warning them about either missing a mod or using the wrong mapgen :-) |
| 17:13 |
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| 17:13 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 but nodecore skyblock exists, so you can fall quite a while ^^ |
| 17:14 |
kabou |
Sublayer plank but isn't that a mapgen in its own right? |
| 17:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There's currently no way to detect whether a mapgen mod is intended to be used on top of singlenode or some other mapgen |
| 17:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> kabou: singlenode is a blank mapgen type mods can use for themselves, that also happens to be usable as a void mapgen |
| 17:14 |
kabou |
Sublayer plank shouldn't it when loaded expose the "islands" mapgen, instead of singlenode |
| 17:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I could make a nodecore.allow_singlenode() API that a mapgen could call at load time, and then if mapgen is singlenode and that hasn't been called by on_mods_loaded I crash with an error, but that'd still only really help my own game. |
| 17:15 |
kabou |
I am not arguing against the use or purpose of singlenode, just saying that it is confusing to naive users |
| 17:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> kabou: If thats how mapgen mods worked, yes |
| 17:16 |
erlehmann |
kabou but a better description in the main menu would help here, right? |
| 17:16 |
kabou |
for starters, yes |
| 17:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> every custom mapgen mod hijacks the singlenode mapgen since mods can't add their own custom mapgen types |
| 17:17 |
kabou |
Sublayer plank maybe that is the underlying issue |
| 17:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> But not every mod that touches mapgen has to use singlenode |
| 17:17 |
kabou |
there should be a better way to install custom mapgens |
| 17:17 |
erlehmann |
Sublayer plank what if we had … some mod.conf option looking like mapgen=skylands.init |
| 17:17 |
kabou |
and singlenode should be less exposed |
| 17:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> kabou: yeah, that's why I mentioned earlier there should be a way for mods to register custom mapgens in addition to the standard ones |
| 17:17 |
erlehmann |
ok i woke up like 20 min ago, i should prob stop making suggestions |
| 17:18 |
kabou |
suggestion: coffee |
| 17:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> To be frank kabou, it sounds a bit like you just don't like it because you didn't know what it was, even though it is useful in other contexts |
| 17:19 |
kabou |
no I do like it for its purpose as a base for custom mapgens |
| 17:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> erlehmann: why '.init'? just... 'custom_mapgen=skylands', or the like. all the engine needs to do is add it to the dropdown list, and then the mod code will check the mapgen name and then run code based on that |
| 17:20 |
kabou |
I just don't like that it is confusing when it appears in a list of ready made and functional mapgens |
| 17:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> I guarantee you that v7 is not functional in my game :^) |
| 17:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> But it doesn't show up, either |
| 17:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> singlenode is useful by itself, whether or not you think you'd use it |
| 17:22 |
kabou |
Benrob0329 I agree with its usefulness |
| 17:22 |
kabou |
its just confusing to naive users who try to play a game in it |
| 17:22 |
kabou |
when that is clearly not the purpose of singlenode |
| 17:22 |
erlehmann |
well |
| 17:23 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> But also, if we make assumptions about how mapgen mods fit together, it could prevent combining e.g. a sky island mod with a custom mapgen mod |
| 17:23 |
kabou |
maybe I have mostly an issue with games that fail to block it as an acceptable mapgen |
| 17:23 |
erlehmann |
i have actually played on a server in which singlenode was used and the falling was intentional |
| 17:23 |
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| 17:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> It's pretty obvious what singlenode is the first time you use it |
| 17:24 |
kabou77 |
damn unstable wifi |
| 17:24 |
erlehmann |
kabou77 the problem is that a lot of stuff depends on minetest_game, so mtg changing the map would definitely break all of those |
| 17:24 |
MTDiscord |
<j45> Turn it into a game, who can reach the bottom of the map first in singlenode :p |
| 17:24 |
erlehmann |
j45 it was a bit like that |
| 17:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> falling_game |
| 17:24 |
MTDiscord |
<j45> Lol |
| 17:24 |
erlehmann |
but more like “if you can't work out how to survive here, go away” too |
| 17:25 |
MTDiscord |
<j45> Hacked client? |
| 17:26 |
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| 17:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Anyways, singlenode was hidden away once before, then brought back when users complained |
| 17:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> It's a harmless "oh, thats what that does" moment everyone has once and then has the extra tool if you're messing around with custom mapgens or worldedit |
| 17:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Mapgen explanations would be nice in general, though, but they need to not be more confusing if games make use of singlenode for general mapgen purposes |
| 17:29 |
kabou |
but if a game expressly uses singlenode, there ought to not be a mapgen choice in the firrst place, right? |
| 17:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> If a singlenode description is as cut and dry as "a mapgen which places a single node (air by default)" then it's going to be confusing why that's the only option for IKEA if users don't know. It'd need to also mention that its used for custom mapgen stuff too |
| 17:30 |
sfan5 |
or games would need an option to hide the description |
| 17:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Or games could just provide the description |
| 17:30 |
kabou |
I mean to the user. If you choose a game that sets the mapgen to singlenode in order to customize it, what is the use of selecting mapgens by the user? |
| 17:30 |
sfan5 |
"It's pretty obvious what singlenode is the first time you use it" <- depends on what 'use' means |
| 17:31 |
sfan5 |
users who accidentally get stuck in it just think the world doesn't load |
| 17:31 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> If users click through the world creation dialog without reading, I can't fix that |
| 17:32 |
kabou |
sfan5 that is why I write "naive users". users who have no knowledge of minetest internals, conventions or history |
| 17:32 |
sfan5 |
yea |
| 17:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> No amount of explanation will fix the inability for some people to read what is right in front of them. We just have to assume some sanity on the user's behalf. |
| 17:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Not making that more difficult than it needs to be is what UX is for |
| 17:34 |
erlehmann |
this is like the “opaque water” thing all over again, don't optimize for ppl who do not READ |
| 17:35 |
sfan5 |
UX is also being mindful of mistakes users make |
| 17:35 |
kabou |
well I did start by asking "where is this documented?" |
| 17:36 |
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| 17:36 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Could just rename singlenode to empty |
| 17:36 |
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| 17:37 |
kabou |
that makes it somewhat self-documenting at least |
| 17:37 |
kabou |
tho it was already pointed out that its not empty but all air |
| 17:38 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> That sounds like overtechnicality |
| 17:38 |
erlehmann |
singlenode is also not empty if you change the node |
| 17:39 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> It is a physically and visually empty mapgen base |
| 17:39 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> What happens afterwards is not of concern |
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| 17:40 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> You'll likely keep the original name for legacy purposes anyway if you're a stickler about the term you use |
| 17:40 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Keep it simple |
| 17:40 |
erlehmann |
ultimately this is about games registering mapgens, right? |
| 17:40 |
definitelya |
Yeah, emptygen sounds dumb. |
| 17:41 |
erlehmann |
bug report: i selected empty mapgen but get an entire world. THIS IS CONFUSING! |
| 17:41 |
erlehmann |
:P |
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| 17:41 |
definitelya |
tru |
| 17:42 |
kabou |
lets call it mapgen_game then, cuz it has no mobs in it until you add them |
| 17:44 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> definitelya: emptygen is stupid. Empty is what I suggested. |
| 17:45 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> erlehmann: I selected singlenode mapgen but my world has more than one node. THIS IS CONFUSING! |
| 17:46 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> tl;dr: it doesn't matter |
| 17:46 |
definitelya |
Greenxenith: Yes I like it. |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> It is vague |
| 17:47 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Like what |
| 17:47 |
definitelya |
I just want it not to be removed/ changed if it can be helped. |
| 17:47 |
definitelya |
I like to keep my schems in-world currently; singlenode is nice for that eheh. |
| 17:48 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> The purpose of the mapgen name is to describe what the engine is going to generate. What the game generates is unrelated |
| 17:48 |
definitelya |
mhm |
| 17:48 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> You can apply the same "i got something different" idea to any other mapgen, so thats a stupid argument |
| 17:49 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> So the only point here is making the name more intuitive than singlenode |
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MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Only good name for "singlenode" is "custom-only" or something, and then games are de facto forced to implement something for them, though it could be like a copy of "flat" or something. At least games would be able to offer mods an API for disabling the built-in flat gen. |
| 18:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Or maybe we just get rid of singlenode entirely, merge it into flat, and then allow mods the option of disabling the terrain that flat normally makes (or just set the flat layers to all air or something). |
| 18:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Of course if the mapgen only gets its cues from config and not from mods, though, this could end up a mess like pretty much all the other crap we run into where mods leak config or where players "accidentally" configure their games into not working. |
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| 18:40 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Mapgen flags would work, yeah |
| 18:41 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> +? |
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| 18:43 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Would keep it out of settings |
| 18:43 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> But honestly, that just makes it more confusing |
| 19:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's okay if it's a bit more confusing for modders/gamedevs, so long as it's less confusing for players. We can assume at least some willingness to learn on the part of the former, but with players all bets are off. |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Flags are arguably even more confusing for playere |
| 19:02 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> players* |
| 19:03 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If it's something players have to mess with at all then it's probably not a solution. If we can't get them to not pick singlenode then we can't get them to pick flags. We'd have to have the mods pick flags for them. |
| 19:03 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> I'd rather select empty and not get empty than pick flat and not get flat |
| 19:03 |
MTDiscord |
<GreenXenith> Mapgen flags are mod set |
| 19:21 |
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| 19:35 |
lagash |
There a way to list servers that (at least probably) have custom mods? I see the server list lists off mods used, but what would be a good way to cross-reference this? Using CDB's API? |
| 19:35 |
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| 19:36 |
lagash |
And by custom mods, I don't necessarily mean forked versions. |
| 19:37 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you can get the mod list from servers that share at servers.minetest.net/list |
| 19:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> no way to tell if there forked or not |
| 19:38 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If the server is popular or old then there's a good chance that there's at least some amount of forking in many of its mods. |
| 19:46 |
lagash |
My main problem I think would be mods that aren't in CDB but are on some Git server somewhere.. |
| 19:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You'll have to choose some definition of "custom" that's actually measurable. |
| 19:48 |
lagash |
I'm mostly looking for servers using mods that aren't publicly available, I guess?? |
| 19:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You can only know if a mod's name matches the list of names that you find on CDB, forums, a few places in github, etc. Can't tell if the mods are the same just because their names match (there are a lot of generic names that people might have collisions with for custom server mods) and even if they share ancestry, you can't tell versions/forks apart. |
| 19:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> your going to find tons |
| 19:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> "publicly available" is not really measurable. |
| 19:49 |
lagash |
Yeah that's what I was afraid of. |
| 19:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Probably the closest you could come is trying to google for mods you find that don't match your known-public ones and hope that you get links to a public repo... |
| 19:50 |
lagash |
I guess there wouldn't be too many considering the strong open-source emphasis here. |
| 19:50 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The enforcement of "no name collisions" only applies within the realm of publicly available mods within one ecosystem, as well, i.e. it's enforced on CDB against CDB and the forums, and in the forums I think against the forums only, but not even in external git repos. |
| 19:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> That "strong open-source emphasis" doesn't necessarily carry over to server operators though. |
| 19:51 |
lagash |
Unless they used AGPL'd code. |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> A lot of server operators consider what's on their server to be basically a proprietary SaaS product that you can only access with an open-source client, but otherwise have no rights to. |
| 19:52 |
lagash |
So what are some servers that actually provide custom mods you won't find elsewhere? |
| 19:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Even if they actually run AGPL code, a sufficiently unscrupulous host might just hide the presence of the mod and force you to C&D them and perhaps prove it. |
| 19:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't actually know of any server that doesn't have any custom mods. The ones I'm most involved in though at least only have pretty minor ones. |
| 19:54 |
lagash |
OK, how about private board, card, dice, tabletop type game mods? |
| 19:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If a server doesn't list any custom mods, that suggests to me that they're probably just running custom forks instead, and didn't bother to isolate their tweaks and overrides and fixes into separate mods. |
| 19:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If anyone else knows about those specific kinds of mods please chime in, but I don't know of anything like that myself. |
| 19:55 |
lagash |
Ah this seems to be an interesting post.. https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=24073 |
| 19:59 |
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| 22:25 |
kabou11 |
sfan5 ? |
| 22:25 |
kabou11 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12054 makes no sense |
| 22:27 |
kabou11 |
I can compile against libluajit-5.1-dev version 2.1.0~beta3+dfsg-5.3 just fine on debian |
| 22:30 |
kabou |
so it is either an issue with arch linux specifically or with that person's setup |
| 22:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> @a floofy ralsei (ROllerozxa) ^ |
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