Time Nick Message 04:10 erlehmann does anyone here have an automated setup to take screenshots of the same situation in different version of their mods? 04:13 MTDiscord @Warr1024 ^ 04:13 MTDiscord NodeCore's CDB screenshot is based on a world distributed in the repo. 04:14 MTDiscord It has some worldmods that freeze time, mock up stationary particle effects, set the camera position on join, etc. 04:16 erlehmann oh neat 04:17 erlehmann thanks! 05:07 Yad Any thoughts on how many nodes could be registered before slowdown begins? I noticed `lua_api.txt` mentions that the number of biomes needs to be kept far below the theoretical maximum or 2^16 05:08 rubenwardy You can register at most 2^15 nodes 05:08 rubenwardy There's no performance cost in registering a node, other than memory 05:24 erlehmann Yad mineclonia has a bit more than 1700 nodes and it runs fine on hardware that is 15 years old, so there is really little to worry about 05:25 Yad erlehmann: thanks :) 05:26 erlehmann i did indeed once make 16³ = 4096 items to test something though and that seemed to slow down minetest a bit when loading the game. 05:27 erlehmann only then though, and my idea was misguided. 05:27 erlehmann it had something to do with banner pattern preview 05:28 erlehmann i.e. items can not change their texture, so i made a bunch of items with prerendered textures. turns out those were not useful. 05:29 Yad erlehmann: hmm, that's encouraging, thanks. My reason for thinking I might want thousands of nodes, would be if I needed 16 or more of each for material levels and such 05:29 Yad for example a node representing mud, but only 7/16 of a meter filled 05:29 Yad basically different nodebox nodes 05:30 erlehmann there might be better ways to do it. 05:30 Yad I hope so :) 05:30 Yad I thought of entities but that would be very costly. 05:30 erlehmann also, try doing 1/8 instead of 1/16 05:30 erlehmann 1/16 is not really interesting in gameplay terms 05:30 Yad Heh, I toned it down. My first thought was 1/256 :P 05:31 erlehmann so you have a bunch of materials and yo uwant them to be multiplied by some constan 05:31 erlehmann t 05:31 erlehmann but how many materials can you have? 05:31 Yad I haven't decided yet. 05:32 erlehmann are you aware of this mod? https://content.minetest.net/packages/Calinou/moreblocks/ 05:32 Yad I'm trying to get an idea of the technical limitations before I start coding it. 05:32 erlehmann well the best code is one never written 05:32 erlehmann for example, because someone else wrote it already 05:32 Yad hahah, true! 05:33 Yad I think I have heard of that mod in several Minetest Game worlds. 05:33 erlehmann check this out too https://content.minetest.net/packages/karamel/naturalslopeslib/ 05:33 Yad erlehmann: Oh yes, I love Natural Slopes Library --- we make use of that in continuing the development of Dokimi's Exile. 05:34 erlehmann oh, you are a dev of exile? i love that game, but it is too hard for me 05:34 erlehmann it is a fine challenge though 05:34 Yad erlehmann: Oooh! ^^ Yep I love the realism. 05:35 erlehmann it's not about realism for me, it's about actions having consequences 05:35 Yad I suppose I actually am a dev there, yes, if my fork from which Mantar accepts pull requests counts. :D 05:35 erlehmann probably lol 05:35 Yad a contributor at lest. :) 05:35 erlehmann so exile is one of the few open world virtual lego games which is not really a neoliberal utopia 05:35 Yad *at least 05:36 Yad Hahahah, yeah it's pre-civilization. 05:36 Yad Though we have the mystery of what way of life the ancients had. 05:37 erlehmann civilization or not is not the issue. in many other games, you have these robinsonade-like qualities: 1. work always pays off eventually 2. the world is fair 3. the player will defeat the world and reshape it according to their views 4. resistance is illegitimate 5. native animals and civiization are there to be exploited 05:37 erlehmann in exile, work often does not pay off. because you die. 05:38 erlehmann also in exile, the world is not remotely fair. you can just freeze to death through no fault of your own. 05:38 erlehmann reshaping the world is hard while trying to stay alive too. what is considered a “noob house” in many other games is a real achievement in exile. 05:39 Yad Hmm, I like your interpretation of 3. whereas you often die, thus you're seeing each new character as a new player of sorts. 05:39 erlehmann resistance? ha! the elements are your enemy 05:39 Yad Yes, making bricks is not easy! :D 05:39 erlehmann and native animals are dangerous and best be avoided 05:39 Yad Best avoid yes, but rather easy to avoid. 05:39 erlehmann contrast this with the majority of minetest games where the only real danger comes from other players 05:40 Yad 5. we do plan to make more aggressive species 05:40 Yad Yes, and in Exile players are encouraged by the nature of the world, to work together. 05:40 erlehmann well, the thing is: exploiting the resources can be as easy as going to a village and taking all its stuff out of the chests 05:40 erlehmann this happens in repixture, it happens in the mcl games, it happens in literally every game where you have villages 05:41 Yad That's another good point, in that we don't have any magic force-fields of "protection" 05:41 erlehmann repixture is a bit more on the nose with it, having locked chests in villages 05:41 Yad Oh, yeah the Minecraft-style villages are rather silly. 05:42 erlehmann it's a colonial fantasy 05:42 erlehmann complete with enslaving natives. a friend of mine made a little prison for the villagers to trade with. 05:42 Yad I suppose it is congruent with one, though I don't assume I can read the minds of the Miencraft developers. 05:42 erlehmann the game mechanics are, of course, setup so that this is the course of action. 05:42 erlehmann in the same way that in sim city you have to set your taxes a specific way 05:43 erlehmann and have to fund police with a set amount of money or else your city starts crumbling 05:43 Yad Well don't get me started on Sim City and how it assumes everything is about flows. 05:43 Yad Or whatever that's called. 05:43 erlehmann haha 05:43 erlehmann i liked the water flow system actually 05:43 Yad :) 05:43 erlehmann pretty cool minigame 05:44 erlehmann but what i want to say is: the narrative framework of a game conveys a specific worldview 05:44 Yad Indeed. 05:44 erlehmann and in an open-world game without real enemies it is *really* hard to avoid making it a robinsonade or neoliberal fantasy 05:44 erlehmann do you know schiffbruch.exe or cataclysm: dark days ahead? 05:45 Yad It can be tempting to condemn some types of fantasies that fail to conform to the vogue of moral thinking in one's own social circle, but I'm especially interested in your perspective because contemplating such presuppositions helps me to imagine new ways of making worlds. 05:45 Yad I'm not familiar with either of those, no. 05:48 erlehmann schiffbruch is an old 2d iso game where you strand on an island 05:48 erlehmann if you like exile, you might like it 05:48 Yad Ah nice. :D 05:48 Yad Thanks. 05:49 erlehmann https://www.dplate.de/games/schiffbruch https://github.com/eXpl0it3r/Schiffbruch 05:49 erlehmann i remember having played it a long time ago 05:49 erlehmann “cataclysm: dark days ahead” is a roguelike: “you wake up in an abandoned house, zombies are closing in from the outside, good luck” 05:50 erlehmann it can be played in text variant or as 2d iso or 2d tile game 05:50 erlehmann so the thing is 05:50 erlehmann cdda has a thing i have rarely seen in other games 05:50 erlehmann namely that the game mechanics often do not need a manual 05:51 erlehmann for example, you start in spring, i think. the world is cold. so my first character in cdda had a lighter. 05:51 erlehmann computer games logic says it is permissible to make a fire right where you are 05:52 erlehmann only that it was a closed room and my very first character died of smoe inhalation 05:52 erlehmann similarly: be on a bike and ram a bush? you'll fly over the handle 05:52 erlehmann or … an acquaintance once complained that it is really hard to avoid zombies. turnns out he shot every zombie. and they can hear. 05:53 erlehmann in fact, animals in the game can also *smell* you. you can use debug mode to see that. 05:53 Yad Nice. Have you played A Dark Room (ADR)? It's an open-source text-based game which I found surprisingly emotional uncovering tragic mysteries. 05:53 erlehmann hurt a child zombie? morale penalty 05:53 erlehmann no i have not 05:53 erlehmann is it one of these inform 7 things? 05:53 erlehmann i have played kerkerkruip 05:53 Yad I'm not sure. 05:53 Yad I use exploiting-the-natives fantasies in several of the game designs I'm tinkering with in my head recently, but the industrial "farming" kind of exploitation seems to me just like lazy and broken game design. 05:54 erlehmann it is human nature 05:54 erlehmann look at history 05:54 erlehmann humans find one thing, use it 05:54 Yad I would point at vampire stories for an analogy. 05:54 erlehmann before you look, they use it at scale 05:55 Yad As to the kind of exploitation fantasy I would enjoy developing for Minetest. 05:55 Yad Probably not literally vampires. I'm not fond of them as a theme. 05:55 erlehmann oh, there are several vampire stories you can copy bits from though 05:55 erlehmann you can look at magic the gathering for inpsiration 05:55 erlehmann they have really good worldbuilding 05:55 Yad You're reminding of how Nosfaratu was made up to avoid infringing on Dracula. xD 05:56 Yad I even remember Baron Singar, so yeah. :P 05:56 erlehmann no, i meen newer magic 05:57 Yad Yes I was joking about how they've had major vampire characters all the way back to Homelands. 05:57 Yad The set they couldn't give away xD 05:57 erlehmann in one world (ixalan), the vampires are cursed, but they are religious fanatics. they will only drink the blood of enemies of the church, but thed kinda need the crusade for that. 05:57 Yad But my point is that to work well in a Minetest game, an exploitation fantasy I would prefer would involve being more like a hunter than a factory builder. 05:58 erlehmann but in another (innistrad) the vampires threaten to eat the livestock (humans), so one of them (sorin) makes a protector angel that becomes stronger, the fewer humans are there (or something like that) and the rest of the vampires hate him for it. 05:58 Yad So how do the Eldrazi connect with the plane of Innistrad? 05:58 erlehmann in gameplay terms, it is probably more interesting to be a human in a monster world at first, but make it posisble to be turned 05:58 erlehmann the moon 05:59 Yad Oooh, they're from its moon? 05:59 erlehmann no 05:59 erlehmann emrakul is imprisoned in the moon 05:59 Yad Its moon attracts them from beyond the plane? Oh okay I get it now. :D 05:59 erlehmann no, nahiri put some beacons there so the unholy noodle meatball monster emmy comes there 05:59 Yad So when Emrakul is freed, it summons more Eldrazi and their minions? 06:00 erlehmann well, in one story, ugin is quoted: there are not multitudes of eldrazi, as they are interdimensional beings 06:00 Yad That's the one of the thrills of a procedural generated world 06:00 erlehmann if a human put fingers, but not the whole hand in a pool 06:00 Yad hunting for rare lifeforms to exploit 06:00 erlehmann then the fishies see 5 new entities 06:00 erlehmann but it is only a human 06:01 erlehmann the fishes can not defeat the human, probably 06:01 erlehmann but they can fingertrap it or poison it 06:01 erlehmann still, it is not 5 humans, it is only 1 06:01 Yad if I can just built a overpowered factory for everything, it's like the whole game takes place in one 80x80x80 mapchunk 06:01 erlehmann well skyblock is literally that in the end 06:02 erlehmann the opposite of “labor eventually pays off” in gameplay terms is “actions have grave consequences” 06:02 erlehmann for example, in cataclysm: dark days ahead, each body part has HP 06:02 erlehmann so you can indeed break your leg 06:02 erlehmann and survive 06:02 erlehmann in a postaocalyptic wasteland 06:02 erlehmann well, usually not for long 06:02 erlehmann but you know 06:03 erlehmann it is possible to heal it 06:03 erlehmann also in CDDA, being bitten by a zombie is not a problem because it is a zombie 06:03 erlehmann the problem is being bitten 06:03 erlehmann i.e. you should clean and disinfect the wound and have antibiotics on hand 06:03 Yad I get the feeling you enjoy vampires. 06:03 erlehmann Yad which features did you add to exile? 06:04 erlehmann no, but i enjoy the idea of making humans central characters, but weak. not powerful, as in minecraft. 06:04 Yad I changed the `airboat` controls slightly. xD 06:04 erlehmann exile humans are weak 06:04 erlehmann there is an airboat? o.0 06:04 Yad Oh sorry, spoiler warning. 06:04 erlehmann i never got that far in exile 06:04 Yad :D 06:04 erlehmann wow 06:04 erlehmann is it, like, a hot air balloon? 06:05 Yad Displacement-wise, it does appear heavier than air. 06:05 erlehmann btw https://cataclysmdda.org/ 06:05 erlehmann i bet playing schiffbruch first and CDDA afterwards will give you some ideas about what to add to exile 06:05 Yad We have a public server for Exile now, called Land of Catastrophe. 06:06 erlehmann oh, i should come by i guess 06:06 MTDiscord I'm expecting some HL2-style floaty ass controls for that airboat 06:06 Yad erlehmann: nice 06:06 Yad Ben: Well, at this point the airboat is rather nerf'd considering the tech level it came from. Can't fly fast. 06:06 erlehmann Yad in CDDA if you have a weird idea, it may just work. for example: if you have a spraycan, lighter and tape – yes, you can actually make a mini flamer 06:07 Yad erlehmann: hahah 06:07 erlehmann also i believe there is an entire bow and arrow shooting subsystem and if you know cooking and chemistry you can make meth or something 06:07 MTDiscord Yad: Ah, so its a flying boat, not a fan powered boat 06:07 erlehmann oh and also it is one of the few games where you can actually construct cars 06:07 Yad Most of my other contributions to Exile have been cosmetic within the code. 06:07 erlehmann one of the few roguelike games 06:08 erlehmann well, most cool things are really small in the end 06:08 Yad Such as optimizing things with `for` loops. 06:08 erlehmann i took hours to make the map markers for mineclonia and i am still not finished 06:08 erlehmann (right click on a banner with a map to get a marker on the map) 06:08 Yad I've mostly been *removing* code, I suppose you could say. In terms of the total number of lines. 06:09 erlehmann Yad, that's a classic https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000_Lines_Of_Code.txt 06:12 Yad erlehmann: Heheh, thanks. 06:21 erlehmann Yad are bodily functions going to be added to exile? in cataclysm DDA this is the big thing they never want to add i think. 06:21 erlehmann i mean, since you love the game for its realism 06:21 erlehmann i had a CDDA character with vitamin b12 deficiency 06:21 erlehmann so i ventured out to look for nuts in bushes or something 06:22 erlehmann and encountered some giant insects 06:22 erlehmann bc the premise of the game is “all apocalypses occurred at the same time” 06:22 Yad erlehmann: We've talked about biological reproduction and the consensus seems to be that new characters only arrive from being exiled. 06:23 erlehmann i meen pooping though lol 06:23 erlehmann but it would be funny if new players could only enter the server as a baby 06:23 erlehmann 1 hour 1 life does it like that i think 06:23 Yad erlehmann: As someone put it to me "I don't want to have to spawn in order to spawn." 06:23 erlehmann it also has a unique chat mechanic 06:24 Yad Yes I mentioned One Hour, One Life during that conversation actually :) 06:24 erlehmann oh! 06:24 Yad ^^ 06:24 erlehmann i like the chat thing 06:24 erlehmann like, a one minute old player is one year in game 06:24 erlehmann and can only say one letter 06:24 erlehmann like a bebbe 06:24 Yad that conversation = where I was talking to other Exile participants 06:24 Yad ah yes 06:25 Yad The number of letters you're allowed to chat is based on your age. 06:25 erlehmann also funny how they handle griefers 06:25 erlehmann ppl can curse other ppl 06:25 Yad I have never managed to play One Hour, One Life, but it's quite riveting to watch replays. 06:25 erlehmann and if you are cursed enough 06:25 erlehmann you get exiled 06:25 Yad hahah 06:25 erlehmann to a village with all the cursed ppl 06:26 erlehmann and to go back to the normal game you have to play 24h or something, like an actually long time 06:26 erlehmann but you have to play it in the village with all the other players who got send there for lying, stealing, and murdering 06:26 erlehmann i once saw a delightfully salty post on the forums 06:26 erlehmann where someone was really unhappy 06:27 erlehmann bc they only wanted to TEST what happens when they stab everyone 06:27 Yad hahah 06:27 Yad As for waste management, in Exile, we are the descendants of a fallen civilization which had access to genetic engineering, so it's not impossible to speculate that we have perfect digestion and produce no waste. 06:27 erlehmann so it is like the toilets on the starship enterprise 06:28 Yad Perhaps. 06:28 erlehmann not existent 06:28 Yad I would speculate they use transporters. 06:28 Yad Which...do you mind more Exile spoilers? 06:28 erlehmann spoiler me as much as you want 06:28 Yad :D 06:28 Yad We also have teleportation in Exile already. 06:28 erlehmann i'm not going to reach the tech level required for *surviving* anyway 06:29 Yad In fact, in the newer versions there's introductory text explaining that you got teleported into the land of exile. 06:29 erlehmann regarding poop teleportation, there is this meme that this would be the way to win the kobayashi maru test 06:29 erlehmann just fill the klingon ships with it 06:29 Yad But I'd go for the perfect digestion explination since you don't have access to a teleporter for yourself 06:30 erlehmann it is a good way to detect star trek nerds, because they always zero in on the fact that the shields would prevent it 06:30 erlehmann whereas normal people look weird at you bc poop teleportation 06:30 Yad erlehmann: According to the Kelvin timeline, the Klingon ships had their shields up until Kirk's subroutine altered the program. 06:30 Yad LOL 06:30 Yad I walked right into that. 06:30 erlehmann yes 06:30 Yad Well played. 06:31 Yad I was so nerdly focused on typing my rebuttal I failed to notice you predicting my response. 06:31 erlehmann this is like when i asked a friend of mine how to detect arch linux users 06:31 erlehmann she was like, i don't know 06:31 erlehmann and i'm like: they are gonna tell you (“btw i use arch” is a meme by now) 06:31 erlehmann in a very slightly raised voice she reacted with “hey! *I* use arch!” 06:31 erlehmann and i was like q.e.d. 06:32 Yad I aspire to use Manjaro. 06:32 erlehmann so about star trek 06:32 Yad hahahah 06:32 erlehmann i think it is weird that they call the political officer on the enterprise “counselor” 06:33 * Yad rolls eyes 06:33 erlehmann like in every other science fiction story they are called commissar 06:33 erlehmann most notably, warhammer 40k 06:33 Yad hah 06:33 Yad Are you talking about the mirror universe then? 06:33 Yad Where there is a terran *empire* 06:33 erlehmann not at all 06:34 erlehmann if deanna troi is not a political officer, why does she have a chair on the bridge? 06:34 erlehmann in which she never sits, btw 06:34 erlehmann well, sometimes 06:35 Yad She's supposed to spy on the emotions of whomever is on the main viewer. 06:35 erlehmann i am talking TNG of course. and data is next in command after riker. 06:35 Yad Yet he sits at the conn. 06:35 erlehmann also why is she allowed in the briefing room 06:36 erlehmann and why is she allowed to wear pyjamas everywhere 06:36 Yad That seems to have been due to something about Picard. 06:37 Yad You'll notice Jellico has her wear as standard uniform. 06:37 erlehmann i think a mind reader is a perfect person to sit close to the captain 06:37 erlehmann to make sure he only thinks correct thoughts 06:37 Yad heheheh 06:37 erlehmann like come on, in the future telepathy is going to work via a big TV screen you need to sit in front of? 06:38 Yad Makes one wonder why they assigned a *half*-Betazoid to the flagship. 06:38 erlehmann if you believe that, i have an NFT of the brooklyn bridge to sell to you 06:38 erlehmann well, having trolled that much: have you seen “the orville”? 06:38 Yad I want to make blockchain-based voxel worlds :P 06:38 erlehmann lol please no 06:38 Yad But I think that would be more condusive to fungible tokens because of the concept of "dust" :D 06:39 erlehmann dust? 06:39 Yad 0.00 000 001 06:39 erlehmann you mean the stuff i collect in my flat on surfaces? 06:39 erlehmann yes they are very small 06:39 erlehmann what has dust to do with blocks and chains 06:40 Yad This is the most canonical source I'm familiar with for when councilors were introduced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMasSzFXaKQ 06:41 erlehmann back to game design: what i'd like to knowabout exile, where is the teleportation 06:41 Yad erlehmann: It's about a kilometer under the surface. 06:41 erlehmann and how do you raise the tech level to get to flying ships and teleports anyway 06:41 erlehmann ohhhh 06:42 Yad ^_^ 06:42 erlehmann so there are ruins under the world!? 06:42 Yad Yes! :D 06:42 erlehmann that's interesting 06:42 Yad :) 06:42 erlehmann is it like geomoria? 06:42 Yad It's more like Atlantis. 06:43 erlehmann is there some way to not die in exile? like, an early-game todo thing? 06:43 Yad Weave clothes. 06:43 erlehmann i always thought clothes are optional 06:43 erlehmann but now that i think about it 06:43 erlehmann the exile world is pretty cold 06:44 Yad They are. I've proven you can survive without sleep in Exile too, as long as you have the right ambient air temperature. 06:44 erlehmann lol 06:44 Yad :) 06:44 erlehmann sleepless in exile 06:44 erlehmann sounds like a nightmare 06:44 erlehmann oh btw, the season mechanic in CDDA is pretty cool 06:44 Yad Yeah, much better to have a bed so you can organize your shelves while resting. 06:44 erlehmann so at first it is spring 06:44 Yad Regarding clothes: You need to get your comfortable-rest temperature down as close to 11 C as possible. 06:45 erlehmann it's cold, but not too cold 06:45 erlehmann then it is summer, it is hot, you can't wear too much 06:45 erlehmann then autumn, then winter 06:45 erlehmann if you survive the winter, you have understood the basic game 06:46 erlehmann Yad who are you on forums? 06:47 erlehmann i just looked at an old exile thread and there are a lot of player bones https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?p=395914#p395914 06:48 Yad erlehmann: Regarding Minetest, I'm only on IRC and GitHub. 06:48 erlehmann ok 06:50 Yad I suppose that's a good way of looking at it. 06:50 Yad But I tend to think more in terms of food production. 06:50 Yad At first you're going to need to be largely arboreal. 06:51 Yad Relying on trees for shelter, sticks, and food. 06:51 erlehmann you should probably play some CDDA, really 06:51 Yad :D 06:52 erlehmann you can play it like hiding in the city, looting storage cabinets 06:52 erlehmann or you can try to live outside, where you can make an old farm work or so 06:53 erlehmann and there are underground labs 06:53 erlehmann where you can find mutagen 06:54 erlehmann to become a furry or something 06:54 erlehmann the labs go really deep 06:54 Yad ooooh 06:54 erlehmann you can also start in a lab. i have never found the surface then. only a small area where i could see the sky. 06:54 Yad now that you mention becoming a furry, it gets interesting :P 06:56 Yad But yeah, I suppose I am an Exile developer. I just want to show due respect to Mantar as maintainer. He's a good captain of this ship. :) 06:57 erlehmann Yad https://cddawiki.chezzo.com/cdda_wiki/index.php?title=Mutation 06:57 erlehmann > Any time you mutate, you have a 2/3 chance to get any type of mutation and a 1/3 chance to get a "bad" mutation, though not all "bad" mutations are truly bad ones and not all "good" mutations are equally desirable. 06:57 erlehmann > The Robust Genetics trait improves your chances of getting a "good" mutation. For the spoiled, Robust Genetics works by changing the 1/3 chance to receive a "bad" mutation to a 1/3 chance to receive a "good" mutation. 06:58 erlehmann so another thing in CDDA is that you have character points, like in a proper RPG 06:58 erlehmann only that you can have a malus like “short-sighted” that is not a problem at first 06:58 erlehmann because you have glasses! 06:58 erlehmann but it's not very good once you lose those 06:59 Yad I remember when I was an early-teen, designing a SimAnt-like game in my head which involved collecting genetic traits from the environment which you could incorporate into the queen's abilities to produce different castes of ants. 07:00 erlehmann > Mycus: Play around with fungus to get this. You are now part of the fungal invasion of earth. Traitor!. Not obtainable using normal mutagens. Locks you out of other mutations. 07:01 erlehmann > Cattle: You're a huge, lumbering herbivore with a lot of health, a powerful natural attack and the ability to eat bushes. Plays like a less restrictive version of Plant. 07:01 erlehmann wow 07:01 erlehmann i think i never really ventured into this 07:01 erlehmann only having smaller mutations 07:01 erlehmann like seeing in the dark or so? i do not remember well 07:02 erlehmann https://cddawiki.chezzo.com/cdda_wiki/index.php?title=Dreams 07:02 erlehmann > Once you are sufficiently mutated, you will begin receiving dreams, relating to how strongly mutated you are toward your highest category. 07:02 erlehmann Yad do you know if there is a multiplayer game where if you sleep you enter a dream world? 07:02 erlehmann which runs on dream logic? 07:05 Yad I find the name CDDA amusing because that also stands for Compact Disc Digital Audio. :) 07:06 erlehmann https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cataclysm:_Dark_Days_Ahead btw 07:06 Yad Yes, it's just something most people didn't notice. It's not CDA it's CD-DA 07:06 Yad but I digress :) 07:07 erlehmann > the player is free to explore the procedurally generated map, clear areas of monsters, work with NPCs, and build shelters and vehicles. The gameplay is mainly based on day-to-day survival, and the game tracks parameters like hunger, thirst, morale, illness and temperature which the player must manage to stay alive. 07:07 erlehmann sounds like exile, except for the vehicles and npcs and monsters 07:07 erlehmann i think CDDA actually has factions and a quest system 07:07 erlehmann but for you to even get that far you need to actually find other survivors 07:07 erlehmann which is a challenge in itself 07:08 erlehmann Yad look at this crafting menu! https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Cataclysm_crafting_menu_.png 07:09 erlehmann Yad and at this vehicle construction menu https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Vehicle_construct.png 07:10 erlehmann > wheels: enough 07:10 Yad Is that ASCII rather than "tiles"? 07:10 Yad I notice there are two different builds. 07:11 erlehmann i prefer the ascii build 07:12 erlehmann small green z? zombie child. blue Z? zombie police 07:12 Yad heheh 07:12 Yad sounds like Dwaf Fortress time >:D 07:12 Yad (the infeasiblity of which is one of the reasons I love Minetest) 07:14 erlehmann in cdda you can also do what i did and wall off an area between two houses 07:14 erlehmann to use as a garden 07:14 Yad Nice. 07:53 definitelya > However, there is one exception for secondary embedded processors. The exception applies to software delivered inside auxiliary and low-level processors and FPGAs, within which software installation is not intended after the user obtains the product. This can include, for instance, microcode inside a processor, firmware built into an I/O device, or the gate pattern of an FPGA. The software in such secondary processors 07:53 definitelya does not count as product software. 07:54 definitelya https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria 07:54 definitelya Found out about this on https://libreboot.org/news/policy.html 07:55 definitelya Looks like the FSF chose not to be an ally in the hardware/ firmware fight for freedom. Sorry for brief offtopic, just a quick PSA. 07:57 definitelya Now back to building my janky block game! 08:16 erlehmann definitelya i have talked to stallman once and i think he thought it was infeasible to have truly free hardware, since you still need a fab 08:16 erlehmann “maybe once we have star-trek style replicators” he said 08:16 erlehmann i think the important bit about it is that usually the firmware can not be updated and it can not commnicate with the outside world 08:17 erlehmann so the level of control was deemed acceptable 08:18 definitelya erlehmann: Probably true for hardware, yes. 08:19 definitelya The FSF's bit about firmware glows from miles away, though. 09:09 Gustavo6046 How come the default FOV is only 72deg, *and* considered an advanced setting? 09:38 MTDiscord minetest 10:38 Gustavo6046 wait, the netcode is lockstep? o.o 12:08 MTDiscord Is https://forum2.minetest.net/ the same as https://forum.minetest.net/ ? 12:12 celeron55 sometimes is, sometimes isn't 12:12 celeron55 don't use it 12:13 appguru I just saw TenPlus1 linking a zip from there so I wondered ;) 12:13 celeron55 ok i'll remove it then, it definitely shouldn't be used 12:14 celeron55 i have no idea how anyone has even gotten the idea of linking something using that address 12:14 celeron55 i certainly haven't linked it anywhere and that's for a purpose 16:48 kabou what is the purpose of the singlenode mapgen? 16:49 kabou is that documented somewhere? 16:50 sfan5 if you don't want the engine interfering because you want to place everything by hand or from Lua that's the mapgen for you 16:51 kabou allright 16:51 sfan5 or if you have an old world that you want to remain like that no matter (but that's almost the same usecase) 16:52 kabou I figured that it was likely some kind of template 16:52 kabou but I couldn't find a description of its purpose 16:53 kabou and it's kinda confusing if you generate a new world with it and you end up falling and dieing over and over 16:53 MTDiscord there are mods that can put a small platform for you to start building on if you want a completely void world for creative 16:54 kabou like skyblock 16:54 kabou to name a famous mc example 16:54 MTDiscord but usually with vanilla games it's completely empty unless the game uses custom lua mapgen and then singlenode is the only mapgen 16:55 MTDiscord honestly I'd love for mods and games to define their own mapgens so it would be more intuitive for the player 16:55 sfan5 good idea indeed 16:55 sfan5 MTG could place a small platform and inform the player what they just did and why it's that way and what to do if that was unintended 16:57 kabou or games could predefine the allowed mapgens? 16:57 MTDiscord allowed mapgens are already configurable per game 16:58 kabou anyone who can craft their own lua mapgens can undo the presets 16:59 MTDiscord anyways in regards to generating a tiny platform in MTG singlenode by default, yeah that would be nice... as long as it will always give over control to any other mod that wants to use it for custom lua mapgen 17:00 MTDiscord and preferrably it would do this with all custom mapgen mods created previously, with no edits required. would this even be possible? in terms of detecting a lua mapgen mod 17:00 MTDiscord With some assumptions maybe 17:01 MTDiscord Like, you could check for extra on_generated callbacks 17:04 erlehmann uh, i use singlenode for testing, how would i get an empty mtg world if the platform were there? 17:05 erlehmann opening a formspec with a message would probably be less disruptive 17:05 sfan5 nodes are commonly diggable 17:05 MTDiscord honestly a message in the main menu about singlenode is probably better than messing with the world 17:06 MTDiscord there is also all that completely empty create world dialog space when singlenode is selected, could put something there 17:06 erlehmann sfan5 testing as in, atuomated testing 17:06 erlehmann automated 17:06 sfan5 an API would be added to inhibit that obviously 17:07 erlehmann i think messing with the world is bad. 17:07 erlehmann Jonathon and Sublayer plank are right, there is enough free space in the menu 17:07 erlehmann (a formspec would also inhibit testing, i take that suggestion back) 17:07 sfan5 doing this also solves the problem of creating a singlenode world and being unable to place anything without third-party mods 17:09 erlehmann i want to propose a salomonic solution: add wuzzys platform mod to the singlenode mapgen stuff by default if no other mods are installed, but do not make it part of mtg so it can be disabled easily. 17:09 kabou It all sounds to me as if singlenode "mapgen" is actually "no mapgen" 17:09 erlehmann singlenode is not “no mapgen”, it fills the entire map with a single node 17:10 MTDiscord well it's more like a blank canvas 17:10 erlehmann in fact, i have been using singlenode with other types of nodes 17:10 kabou while that is tremendously useful in certain situations, it is mightily confusing for users 17:10 erlehmann for example, a space game can use singlenode 17:10 erlehmann (and has no use for a platform) 17:10 sfan5 you are arguing against your own solution 17:11 kabou so singlenode is really airnode 17:11 erlehmann sfan5 “if no other mods are installed” 17:11 kabou airworld 17:11 erlehmann also, i have used singlenode with stones and used wuzzy mineshafts 17:11 erlehmann so that i had a world entirely out of stone with mineshafts in it 17:11 MTDiscord "no other mods" than what? 17:12 sfan5 clearly erlehmann wants to solve the halting problem so the engine can detect whether a mapgen mod is present or not 17:12 erlehmann well, my solution is shit i guess. but all the others that modify the world are too, obviously. 17:12 MTDiscord how are you going to tell a mapgen mod from other mods? 17:12 MTDiscord kabou: in vanilla MTG, yes. but there are for example lua mapgen mods that make use of it for custom terrain 17:12 MTDiscord such as https://content.minetest.net/packages/Termos/islands/ 17:12 erlehmann not at all. i retract my solution and go back to “Jonathon and Sublayer plank are right, there is enough free space for a mapgen description in the main menu” 17:13 MTDiscord I hadn't really thought about it before, but maybe what I might end up doing is just detect if mapgen is singlenode AND the player is continuously falling with nothing below them for a sufficient amount of time, then just hit them with a message warning them about either missing a mod or using the wrong mapgen :-) 17:13 erlehmann Warr1024 but nodecore skyblock exists, so you can fall quite a while ^^ 17:14 kabou Sublayer plank  but isn't that a mapgen in its own right? 17:14 MTDiscord There's currently no way to detect whether a mapgen mod is intended to be used on top of singlenode or some other mapgen 17:14 MTDiscord kabou: singlenode is a blank mapgen type mods can use for themselves, that also happens to be usable as a void mapgen 17:14 kabou Sublayer plank  shouldn't it when loaded expose the "islands" mapgen, instead of singlenode 17:15 MTDiscord I could make a nodecore.allow_singlenode() API that a mapgen could call at load time, and then if mapgen is singlenode and that hasn't been called by on_mods_loaded I crash with an error, but that'd still only really help my own game. 17:15 kabou I am not arguing against the use or purpose of singlenode, just saying that it is confusing to naive users 17:15 MTDiscord kabou: If thats how mapgen mods worked, yes 17:16 erlehmann kabou but a better description in the main menu would help here, right? 17:16 kabou for starters, yes 17:16 MTDiscord every custom mapgen mod hijacks the singlenode mapgen since mods can't add their own custom mapgen types 17:17 kabou Sublayer plank maybe that is the underlying issue 17:17 MTDiscord But not every mod that touches mapgen has to use singlenode 17:17 kabou there should be a better way to install custom mapgens 17:17 erlehmann Sublayer plank what if we had … some mod.conf option looking like mapgen=skylands.init 17:17 kabou and singlenode should be less exposed 17:17 MTDiscord kabou: yeah, that's why I mentioned earlier there should be a way for mods to register custom mapgens in addition to the standard ones 17:17 erlehmann ok i woke up like 20 min ago, i should prob stop making suggestions 17:18 kabou suggestion: coffee 17:19 MTDiscord To be frank kabou, it sounds a bit like you just don't like it because you didn't know what it was, even though it is useful in other contexts 17:19 kabou no I do like it for its purpose as a base for custom mapgens 17:20 MTDiscord erlehmann: why '.init'? just... 'custom_mapgen=skylands', or the like. all the engine needs to do is add it to the dropdown list, and then the mod code will check the mapgen name and then run code based on that 17:20 kabou I just don't like that it is confusing when it appears in a list of ready made and functional mapgens 17:20 MTDiscord I guarantee you that v7 is not functional in my game :^) 17:20 MTDiscord But it doesn't show up, either 17:21 MTDiscord singlenode is useful by itself, whether or not you think you'd use it 17:22 kabou Benrob0329 I agree with its usefulness 17:22 kabou its just confusing to naive users who try to play a game in it 17:22 kabou when that is clearly not the purpose of singlenode 17:22 erlehmann well 17:23 MTDiscord But also, if we make assumptions about how mapgen mods fit together, it could prevent combining e.g. a sky island mod with a custom mapgen mod 17:23 kabou maybe I have mostly an issue with games that fail to block it as an acceptable mapgen 17:23 erlehmann i have actually played on a server in which singlenode was used and the falling was intentional 17:24 MTDiscord It's pretty obvious what singlenode is the first time you use it 17:24 kabou77 damn unstable wifi 17:24 erlehmann kabou77 the problem is that a lot of stuff depends on minetest_game, so mtg changing the map would definitely break all of those 17:24 MTDiscord Turn it into a game, who can reach the bottom of the map first in singlenode :p 17:24 erlehmann j45 it was a bit like that 17:24 MTDiscord falling_game 17:24 MTDiscord Lol 17:24 erlehmann but more like “if you can't work out how to survive here, go away” too 17:25 MTDiscord Hacked client? 17:26 MTDiscord Anyways, singlenode was hidden away once before, then brought back when users complained 17:26 MTDiscord It's a harmless "oh, thats what that does" moment everyone has once and then has the extra tool if you're messing around with custom mapgens or worldedit 17:28 MTDiscord Mapgen explanations would be nice in general, though, but they need to not be more confusing if games make use of singlenode for general mapgen purposes 17:29 kabou but if a game expressly uses singlenode, there ought to not be a mapgen choice in the firrst place, right? 17:29 MTDiscord If a singlenode description is as cut and dry as "a mapgen which places a single node (air by default)" then it's going to be confusing why that's the only option for IKEA if users don't know. It'd need to also mention that its used for custom mapgen stuff too 17:30 sfan5 or games would need an option to hide the description 17:30 MTDiscord Or games could just provide the description 17:30 kabou I mean to the user.  If you choose a game that sets the mapgen to singlenode in order to customize it, what is the use of selecting mapgens by the user? 17:30 sfan5 "It's pretty obvious what singlenode is the first time you use it" <- depends on what 'use' means 17:31 sfan5 users who accidentally get stuck in it just think the world doesn't load 17:31 MTDiscord If users click through the world creation dialog without reading, I can't fix that 17:32 kabou sfan5 that is why I write "naive users". users who have no knowledge of minetest internals, conventions or history 17:32 sfan5 yea 17:33 MTDiscord No amount of explanation will fix the inability for some people to read what is right in front of them. We just have to assume some sanity on the user's behalf. 17:33 MTDiscord Not making that more difficult than it needs to be is what UX is for 17:34 erlehmann this is like the “opaque water” thing all over again, don't optimize for ppl who do not READ 17:35 sfan5 UX is also being mindful of mistakes users make 17:35 kabou well I did start by asking "where is this documented?" 17:36 MTDiscord Could just rename singlenode to empty 17:37 kabou that makes it somewhat self-documenting at least 17:37 kabou tho it was already pointed out that its not empty but all air 17:38 MTDiscord That sounds like overtechnicality 17:38 erlehmann singlenode is also not empty if you change the node 17:39 MTDiscord It is a physically and visually empty mapgen base 17:39 MTDiscord What happens afterwards is not of concern 17:40 MTDiscord You'll likely keep the original name for legacy purposes anyway if you're a stickler about the term you use 17:40 MTDiscord Keep it simple 17:40 erlehmann ultimately this is about games registering mapgens, right? 17:40 definitelya Yeah, emptygen sounds dumb. 17:41 erlehmann bug report: i selected empty mapgen but get an entire world. THIS IS CONFUSING! 17:41 erlehmann :P 17:41 definitelya tru 17:42 kabou lets call it mapgen_game then, cuz it has no mobs in it until you add them 17:44 MTDiscord definitelya: emptygen is stupid. Empty is what I suggested. 17:45 MTDiscord erlehmann: I selected singlenode mapgen but my world has more than one node. THIS IS CONFUSING! 17:46 MTDiscord tl;dr: it doesn't matter 17:46 definitelya Greenxenith: Yes I like it. 17:47 MTDiscord It is vague 17:47 MTDiscord Like what 17:47 definitelya I just want it not to be removed/ changed if it can be helped. 17:47 definitelya I like to keep my schems in-world currently; singlenode is nice for that eheh. 17:48 MTDiscord The purpose of the mapgen name is to describe what the engine is going to generate. What the game generates is unrelated 17:48 definitelya mhm 17:48 MTDiscord You can apply the same "i got something different" idea to any other mapgen, so thats a stupid argument 17:49 MTDiscord So the only point here is making the name more intuitive than singlenode 18:38 MTDiscord Only good name for "singlenode" is "custom-only" or something, and then games are de facto forced to implement something for them, though it could be like a copy of "flat" or something. At least games would be able to offer mods an API for disabling the built-in flat gen. 18:39 MTDiscord Or maybe we just get rid of singlenode entirely, merge it into flat, and then allow mods the option of disabling the terrain that flat normally makes (or just set the flat layers to all air or something). 18:40 MTDiscord Of course if the mapgen only gets its cues from config and not from mods, though, this could end up a mess like pretty much all the other crap we run into where mods leak config or where players "accidentally" configure their games into not working. 18:40 MTDiscord Mapgen flags would work, yeah 18:41 MTDiscord +? 18:43 MTDiscord Would keep it out of settings 18:43 MTDiscord But honestly, that just makes it more confusing 19:01 MTDiscord It's okay if it's a bit more confusing for modders/gamedevs, so long as it's less confusing for players. We can assume at least some willingness to learn on the part of the former, but with players all bets are off. 19:02 MTDiscord Flags are arguably even more confusing for playere 19:02 MTDiscord players* 19:03 MTDiscord If it's something players have to mess with at all then it's probably not a solution. If we can't get them to not pick singlenode then we can't get them to pick flags. We'd have to have the mods pick flags for them. 19:03 MTDiscord I'd rather select empty and not get empty than pick flat and not get flat 19:03 MTDiscord Mapgen flags are mod set 19:35 lagash There a way to list servers that (at least probably) have custom mods? I see the server list lists off mods used, but what would be a good way to cross-reference this? Using CDB's API? 19:36 lagash And by custom mods, I don't necessarily mean forked versions. 19:37 MTDiscord you can get the mod list from servers that share at servers.minetest.net/list 19:38 MTDiscord no way to tell if there forked or not 19:38 MTDiscord If the server is popular or old then there's a good chance that there's at least some amount of forking in many of its mods. 19:46 lagash My main problem I think would be mods that aren't in CDB but are on some Git server somewhere.. 19:46 MTDiscord You'll have to choose some definition of "custom" that's actually measurable. 19:48 lagash I'm mostly looking for servers using mods that aren't publicly available, I guess?? 19:48 MTDiscord You can only know if a mod's name matches the list of names that you find on CDB, forums, a few places in github, etc. Can't tell if the mods are the same just because their names match (there are a lot of generic names that people might have collisions with for custom server mods) and even if they share ancestry, you can't tell versions/forks apart. 19:48 MTDiscord your going to find tons 19:48 MTDiscord "publicly available" is not really measurable. 19:49 lagash Yeah that's what I was afraid of. 19:49 MTDiscord Probably the closest you could come is trying to google for mods you find that don't match your known-public ones and hope that you get links to a public repo... 19:50 lagash I guess there wouldn't be too many considering the strong open-source emphasis here. 19:50 MTDiscord The enforcement of "no name collisions" only applies within the realm of publicly available mods within one ecosystem, as well, i.e. it's enforced on CDB against CDB and the forums, and in the forums I think against the forums only, but not even in external git repos. 19:51 MTDiscord That "strong open-source emphasis" doesn't necessarily carry over to server operators though. 19:51 lagash Unless they used AGPL'd code. 19:52 MTDiscord A lot of server operators consider what's on their server to be basically a proprietary SaaS product that you can only access with an open-source client, but otherwise have no rights to. 19:52 lagash So what are some servers that actually provide custom mods you won't find elsewhere? 19:52 MTDiscord Even if they actually run AGPL code, a sufficiently unscrupulous host might just hide the presence of the mod and force you to C&D them and perhaps prove it. 19:53 MTDiscord I don't actually know of any server that doesn't have any custom mods. The ones I'm most involved in though at least only have pretty minor ones. 19:54 lagash OK, how about private board, card, dice, tabletop type game mods? 19:54 MTDiscord If a server doesn't list any custom mods, that suggests to me that they're probably just running custom forks instead, and didn't bother to isolate their tweaks and overrides and fixes into separate mods. 19:55 MTDiscord If anyone else knows about those specific kinds of mods please chime in, but I don't know of anything like that myself. 19:55 lagash Ah this seems to be an interesting post.. https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=24073 22:25 kabou11 sfan5 ? 22:25 kabou11 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12054 makes no sense 22:27 kabou11 I can compile against libluajit-5.1-dev version 2.1.0~beta3+dfsg-5.3 just fine on debian 22:30 kabou so it is either an issue with arch linux specifically or with that person's setup 22:30 MTDiscord @a floofy ralsei (ROllerozxa) ^