| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:15 |
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| 00:54 |
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| 00:56 |
jonadab |
independent56: Or set all the nodes from -10000,-10000,-10000 to 10000,10000,10000 to lava sources. |
| 00:56 |
independent56 |
0_o |
| 00:56 |
jonadab |
WE is too much power to give to anyone you don't trust completely. |
| 00:57 |
independent56 |
WE dosen't respect area protection? |
| 00:57 |
jonadab |
... I haven't tested that. But I wouldn't count on it. |
| 00:57 |
jonadab |
WE is an admin tool. |
| 00:58 |
jonadab |
It's really really useful for stuff like testing a work-in-progress mod. |
| 00:58 |
independent56 |
Are edit blocks considered as dnagerous as we? |
| 00:58 |
jonadab |
If you want to give players a way to build large things that don't have a lot of detail, other than placing every block, install digtron. |
| 00:59 |
jonadab |
I don't know about edit blocks. |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i mean, if you want to have fun give me worldedit, server, and turn off mod security :p |
| 01:00 |
independent56 |
Basically, i use the fill block. You place two at corners,and you select material from your inventory. Theya re greatfror item dupes in survial,and great for medium size building in creative. |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> . //lua would be fun |
| 01:00 |
independent56 |
0_o |
| 01:00 |
* jonadab |
used digtron to build a tower about three hundred blocks tall on li-fo; I also used it quite a bit when building a large skating rink (the kind that would host a pro hockey team). |
| 01:01 |
jonadab |
Digtron did not do 100% of either build; I had to put in some details by hand. |
| 01:02 |
jonadab |
But it automated the tedious/repetitive parts very well. |
| 01:02 |
independent56 |
cool... i built an entire town there before they erased me and refuses to give me my data |
| 01:02 |
independent56 |
cool |
| 01:03 |
jonadab |
I ended up leaving li-fo when I was "between builds" (i.e., had no really compelling projects I wanted to work on); the reason I don't go back, is because I have developed specific ideas about mods, that are different from theirs. |
| 01:03 |
jonadab |
For example, I have concluded that train-related mods are a really bad idea. |
| 01:04 |
jonadab |
At least for the way I want to play. |
| 01:05 |
independent56 |
I ended up leaving because they became very hostile. |
| 01:05 |
jonadab |
I also have some reservations about the culture on there. Some people are very friendly and helpful, but the way they sometimes talk about people who have left the server in the past, sends up red flags for me. |
| 01:06 |
jonadab |
Nothing concrete, just... makes me a little uncomfortable. |
| 01:06 |
independent56 |
I wish i got those red flags. Give me an example...was it like "seperatist"? |
| 01:06 |
jonadab |
There are some really nice builds on the server, though. |
| 01:06 |
independent56 |
I wish i could go back and visit them. |
| 01:06 |
jonadab |
Some of the things they say about separatists would be an example, yes. |
| 01:07 |
independent56 |
give me a quote (can be rough around the edges) |
| 01:07 |
jonadab |
You get the idea they're deeply offended if anybody wants to go start a different server. |
| 01:07 |
jonadab |
I don't have an exact quote; it's been months. |
| 01:08 |
jonadab |
But I just felt like I was getting a very one-sided account. |
| 01:08 |
independent56 |
Please don't go back. If you were to inflame them more, then you may end uperassedina similar fashion to myself. |
| 01:08 |
jonadab |
It could be nothing. It was never anything concrete. |
| 01:09 |
independent56 |
They have the best server in the world, a shame that it is owned by dictators as mad as lukashenkov. |
| 01:09 |
jonadab |
If I go back, it will just be to look at the world. I don't plan on building there any more. I've started another world and am not looking back. |
| 01:10 |
independent56 |
http://56i.duckdns.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=lf Has a timeline of what happened to me if yhou're intrested |
| 01:10 |
jonadab |
If I thought I could find anyone who would do a decent job of it, I would go back to hand off control of certain areas, notably the Tech Mall. But realistically, their long-time regulars have other things to do, and anybody else is just going to drift in and drift out. |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> your still salty over that? |
| 01:11 |
jonadab |
So the Tech Mall will just have to go unstocked I guess. |
| 01:11 |
jonadab |
A shame, that was a worthy project; but I have moved on. |
| 01:11 |
independent56 |
Jonathon: How would you feel if a year of work close to you was deleted irrecoverably from you? |
| 01:12 |
independent56 |
jonadab, Enable local map saving. It is the only way i saved my buildings from their evil grasp |
| 01:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> its been a few months, i would have moved on and maybe hoped i could patch it up in the future |
| 01:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> rehashing old wounds doesnt help |
| 01:13 |
independent56 |
hmm |
| 01:14 |
jonadab |
Also, server admins *have* to be dictators, it goes with the job description. You hope for benevolent dictators, but you can't run a public server as a democracy, the griefers will outvote everyone else. |
| 01:14 |
independent56 |
Yeah, i agree. Just that they are Lukashenkov level dictators, not pope francis level dictators |
| 01:14 |
independent56 |
(legally, he is a dictator) |
| 01:15 |
independent56 |
I'm probably too tired totalk about this without getting a ban.... somehwere. |
| 01:15 |
independent56 |
goodnight |
| 01:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> night |
| 01:15 |
jonadab |
Good night. |
| 01:16 |
jonadab |
The only time the admins on there ever got after me, was when I inadvertently caused a lot of lag, due to my inexperience. And all they did was tell me that the thing I was doing was causing lag and to stop that. |
| 01:17 |
jonadab |
So I haven't had the experience you had. |
| 01:17 |
independent56 |
Ine final thing to keep you occupied: tart with any positive integer n. Then each term is obtained from the previous term as follows: if the previous term is even, the next term is one half of the previous term. If the previous term is odd, the next term is 3 times the previous term plus 1. The conjecture is that no matter what value of n, the sequence will always reach 1. Prove this conjecture. |
| 01:17 |
jonadab |
I'm familiar with that one. |
| 01:18 |
jonadab |
I think Mathologer did a video on it. |
| 01:18 |
independent56 |
It's a trick to keep you thinking for years |
| 01:18 |
independent56 |
https://explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/356:_Nerd_Sniping |
| 01:19 |
jonadab |
Eh, just let Hugh go back to the collective. |
| 01:19 |
jonadab |
It's easier. |
| 01:22 |
independent56 |
Wait... knowing Gabriel is a mathematican, we can use this info and the collatz conjecture to nerd-snipe him and ake down LF! |
| 01:22 |
specing |
all this talk makes me want to play on LF |
| 01:23 |
independent56 |
If you do, please nerd-snipe the admin |
| 01:25 |
specing |
why |
| 01:26 |
independent56 |
it will be funny |
| 01:29 |
independent56 |
Well, final goodnights. |
| 01:33 |
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| 02:33 |
erlehmann |
i know how to make ppl not glorify neoliberalism, do it like the western game red dead redemption 2: it has about 20 bisons, but every other animal mob respawns. therefore players can easily make bisons go extinct in that game and get an achievement for it to rub it in. |
| 02:45 |
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| 08:54 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> independent56: That's Goldbach's conjecture |
| 08:56 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Not Goldbach sorry, it's the Collatz sequence |
| 08:57 |
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| 09:10 |
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| 09:18 |
independent56 |
Ha! You were wrong on the internet! |
| 09:40 |
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| 09:43 |
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| 10:27 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> WE is so extremely fast BECAUSE it ignores almost everything that could be triggered by it...node callbacks, protection checks, metadata nad more |
| 10:28 |
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| 10:29 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> Nodes changed via WE will also not get logged anywhere so that's at least 2 reasons to not give it to every player |
| 10:47 |
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| 10:49 |
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| 10:52 |
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| 11:20 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Obligatory https://xkcd.com/710/ |
| 11:31 |
independent56 |
Advtrains ARS stands for Approach Route Setting, not Automaic Route Setting ;-) |
| 11:44 |
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| 12:52 |
independent56 |
Can one of you encourage me to interlock the 5 Km railway line i made? |
| 13:20 |
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| 14:29 |
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| 14:30 |
[A_A] |
Unknown nodes crash worldedit... |
| 14:32 |
specing |
cheater :P |
| 14:32 |
Krock |
air (you hacker you= |
| 14:34 |
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| 14:42 |
sfan5 |
that's news to me |
| 14:42 |
sfan5 |
maybe if they wrote a proper bug report I could investigate this |
| 14:50 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> What code in the engine causes 'dedicated servers' to not override the conf file on shutdown while SP seemingly does? What I mean is that I can edit my server's conf file whiole it runs and it will remember my changes on restart |
| 14:53 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> And in SP you have to edit the conf while MT is not used for your changes to apply it seems |
| 14:58 |
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| 15:57 |
independent56 |
Are there any examples of a democraic MT server, where the admin only maintains the server (keeps it running) and does not take care of it, allowing the people inside to do what they like in terms of power? |
| 15:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> sounds like a anarchy server |
| 15:58 |
independent56 |
oh cool. But i meant more organised: a handful of players play governemnt and keep the server from anacrchy and keep it organised. |
| 15:58 |
independent56 |
They give themselves privs, and the common people get a vote |
| 15:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> then no, not aware of anything like that |
| 16:00 |
independent56 |
I should make one. I am admin for a while, but when a suficent playerbase arrives, three get to be a co-operative parliment, asking em to make changes. I can be a monarch, controlling the server, but only udner the instruction of my three MPs. And they are seperately voted inby trustworthy playrers. |
| 16:01 |
independent56 |
Such an idea won't work if there are less then 10 people |
| 16:02 |
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| 16:05 |
independent56 |
If i such a thing happens on LF and they get the wrong people (relative to them), then they could get me my pages back. If only minetest did not encourage such dictatorships. |
| 16:07 |
independent56 |
Hey, maybe i wouldn't have lsot them if they ahd that form of power structure. My reccomended term length is a month. |
| 16:22 |
specing |
pages? |
| 16:26 |
Pexin |
waits for pedophiles to take over independent56's server |
| 16:27 |
independent56 |
specing, You'd understand if you asked for the link |
| 16:27 |
independent56 |
Pexin, Not my main server, an anarchy server. Then boom!p;ayers join and i establish democracy in a lawless land. |
| 16:28 |
Pexin |
waits for pedophiles to take over independent56's democracy |
| 16:28 |
independent56 |
I will use the power of myself, as god, to banish them with a single command - /shutdown |
| 16:29 |
Pexin |
such democratic |
| 16:30 |
erlehmann |
independent56 Jonathon your-land.de has voting and mayors i think? |
| 16:30 |
independent56 |
cool |
| 16:30 |
erlehmann |
go there or go anarchy |
| 16:31 |
independent56 |
Doesthe protection work with anarchy servers? |
| 16:31 |
erlehmann |
no, anarchists, including myself, make a mockery of protection blocks |
| 16:31 |
erlehmann |
a friend of mine once was so annoyed by locked chests that she built a house of them |
| 16:32 |
erlehmann |
since they are protected blocks |
| 16:32 |
erlehmann |
indestructible house |
| 16:32 |
erlehmann |
it hopefully annoyed other people |
| 16:33 |
independent56 |
aye, but i am too lazy to vet moderators. Build a server from lowly ashes. |
| 16:33 |
specing |
Does clamity anarchy even have area protections? |
| 16:34 |
independent56 |
My version of anarchy is this: minimal admin action, with the players trusted to organise themselves. |
| 16:34 |
erlehmann |
of course not |
| 16:35 |
erlehmann |
area protection and protection blocks are absolutely haram |
| 16:35 |
erlehmann |
> minimal admin action, with the players trusted to organise themselves. |
| 16:35 |
erlehmann |
independent56 join clamity and see how it goes |
| 16:35 |
erlehmann |
independent56 for a more structured thing, join your-land.de |
| 16:35 |
independent56 |
Cool |
| 16:35 |
independent56 |
I'll have a lookwheni finish making routes |
| 16:35 |
Calinou |
heh, I remember building a house with locked chests on Minecraft anarchy servers |
| 16:35 |
Calinou |
or locked furnaces |
| 16:36 |
independent56 |
Wait... they exist on vanilla minecraft? |
| 16:36 |
Calinou |
no, but they do with plugins |
| 16:37 |
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| 16:37 |
specing |
erlehmann: I wonder what you people even do on clamity, you come to spawn and it's the typical wrecked anarchy spawn |
| 16:38 |
specing |
there's noone around |
| 16:38 |
specing |
you quit |
| 16:38 |
erlehmann |
specing oh you |
| 16:38 |
erlehmann |
try traveling the world |
| 16:38 |
erlehmann |
specing in my understanding the spawn is to filter out people with a low frustration tolerance |
| 16:39 |
erlehmann |
if i meet another player on there, regardless if that player is 52 year old or 12 year old, i must assume they have survived spawn |
| 16:40 |
erlehmann |
but if ppl join, fall to their death a dozen times, then quit … well, they do probably not belong there |
| 16:40 |
erlehmann |
clamity has the coolest things |
| 16:41 |
specing |
the coolest things ... stored in locked chests because no area protections |
| 16:41 |
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| 16:42 |
erlehmann |
specing there exist no locked chests |
| 16:42 |
erlehmann |
admins make sure of that |
| 16:42 |
erlehmann |
specing try basehunting, you'll find wonderful things. |
| 16:43 |
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| 16:47 |
independent56 |
To my civilised eyes, basehunting is a sport as insane as burgalry: destruction of property for marginal gain. |
| 16:49 |
erlehmann |
well i do basehunting |
| 16:49 |
erlehmann |
i just don't destroy the bases |
| 16:49 |
erlehmann |
on the contrary, i hide gifts in them |
| 16:50 |
independent56 |
Nice |
| 16:51 |
independent56 |
Without proection, i won't play on a server. |
| 16:52 |
erlehmann |
that's your problem |
| 16:52 |
erlehmann |
independent56 without protection, you have to get along with people |
| 16:52 |
independent56 |
meh |
| 16:55 |
jonadab |
If it's a _public_ server, area protection is a practical necessity. |
| 16:55 |
jonadab |
On a private server, it may not be required, depending on who you have on your server. |
| 16:58 |
erlehmann |
<jonadab> If it's a _public_ server, area protection is a practical necessity. |
| 16:58 |
erlehmann |
the existence of multiple clamity servers proves otherwise |
| 16:59 |
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| 16:59 |
independent56 |
I mean, still will play, but i wont build |
| 16:59 |
erlehmann |
wanna come to clamity and i help you a bit and give you a tour?? |
| 17:00 |
erlehmann |
like right now? |
| 17:00 |
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| 17:01 |
erlehmann |
independent56 |
| 17:01 |
independent56 |
Yes |
| 17:01 |
erlehmann |
ok good |
| 17:01 |
erlehmann |
come there then |
| 17:01 |
independent56 |
Can't find the list |
| 17:01 |
independent56 |
sorry, mispelt it |
| 17:02 |
* independent56 |
shuts down own server before playing, because i am a cotnrol freak |
| 17:03 |
Pexin |
such democratic |
| 17:04 |
independent56 |
My server is a dictatorship, not a democrasy |
| 17:04 |
independent56 |
Well... i refuse to respawn |
| 17:04 |
Pexin |
someone please suggest what channel I should ask for help about this new github cli auth shenanigans |
| 17:05 |
independent56 |
##programming |
| 17:05 |
erlehmann |
independent56 get away from spawn before that person kills you again |
| 17:06 |
independent56 |
He is too fast and i am too slow |
| 17:06 |
specing |
Pexin: still persisting on github? |
| 17:06 |
Pexin |
#programming has...... a lot of users |
| 17:06 |
independent56 |
erlehmann, I might as well just wait an hour |
| 17:06 |
Pexin |
specing: literally the only reason I have an account is for one contribution to MT |
| 17:07 |
Pexin |
i'd be on svn/sourceforge else |
| 17:07 |
specing |
Oh wow, people still use sourceforge |
| 17:07 |
independent56 |
Literally, i just look for his nametag, and before i can even find it, i have that annoying "you did" screen. |
| 17:08 |
specing |
Pexin: if something is on github, I just dont contribute |
| 17:08 |
specing |
(if the only way to contribute is by going through github) |
| 17:12 |
erlehmann |
yeah github sucks so much |
| 17:20 |
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| 17:21 |
independent56 |
If he's american, i will wait for morning. If he'seuropean, i will stay up |
| 17:22 |
erlehmann |
independent56 the person left |
| 17:26 |
independent56 |
Has not |
| 17:26 |
independent56 |
he just did \me left |
| 17:26 |
erlehmann |
hehe |
| 17:27 |
* Pexin |
left right left |
| 17:27 |
CWz |
i wonder if he's cheating... |
| 17:27 |
independent56 |
\me has quite (example) |
| 17:28 |
* independent56 |
has quit (example) |
| 17:28 |
independent56 |
like that |
| 17:32 |
MinetestBot |
[git] pecksin -> minetest/minetest: Remove closing paren as weblink delimiter 040aed3 https://git.io/JEiR6 (2021-08-29T17:30:33Z) |
| 17:36 |
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| 17:53 |
independent56 |
I have the weapon of servers.minetest.net. Can't wait to see They're gone. |
| 17:54 |
CWz |
Who? |
| 17:56 |
independent56 |
That griefer on clamity. I want to look at an anarchy server. Spawnkilling is cruel, but it is still legal in some archaic minetest servers. |
| 17:58 |
CWz |
Beat them up then. the winner in battle between two sams is determined by who can repeated click their mouse faster |
| 18:00 |
rubenwardy |
Griefing and anarchy seems contradictory |
| 18:00 |
CWz |
How so? |
| 18:00 |
Pexin |
griefing and anarchy seems identical |
| 18:02 |
CWz |
is that griefer armed with more than just a fist? |
| 18:06 |
independent56 |
Yeah. I literally can't find their nametag when i respawn |
| 18:07 |
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| 18:09 |
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| 18:20 |
Pexin |
nuke arrow mod |
| 18:20 |
Pexin |
BestMod |
| 18:25 |
erlehmann |
independent56 it is some asshole named owl, either get a cheat client and tp away from spawn (the end sky is very big in mcl2-derived mods) or just manage to get away from spawn at some point and survive |
| 18:25 |
independent56 |
Yeah, good idea |
| 18:26 |
independent56 |
Looks like they're out |
| 18:27 |
sfan5 |
does clamity come with anticheat disabled? |
| 18:28 |
specing |
CWz: repeated click? Heh, you have automatic combat CSMs. |
| 18:29 |
independent56 |
How do i escape? Advice? |
| 18:30 |
CWz |
independent56, um do you have fast? |
| 18:30 |
independent56 |
I mean, i am a lowly walker |
| 18:30 |
independent56 |
no special privs; this is clamity or ctalamy or something |
| 18:32 |
erlehmann |
<sfan5> does clamity come with anticheat disabled? |
| 18:32 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 no clamity has anticheat |
| 18:33 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 but hacked clients are not frowned upon |
| 18:33 |
erlehmann |
and anticheat is a joke |
| 18:33 |
erlehmann |
it is pretty much just a speed limit |
| 18:33 |
erlehmann |
and also prevents trampolines from working |
| 18:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> and boats |
| 18:33 |
erlehmann |
oh what is the problem with anticheat and boats? |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you get reset a lot |
| 18:34 |
erlehmann |
ah |
| 18:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> more so depending on how laggy the server is |
| 18:34 |
sfan5 |
fixed in 5.4.0 |
| 18:34 |
erlehmann |
independent56 go away from spawn along the rail lines, build your base at least 10k out, several 1k from the rails, do not build on the diagonals |
| 18:34 |
sfan5 |
if not, open an issue |
| 18:35 |
erlehmann |
independent56 it is easier to get that far out by going to the nether first, also owl will not find you that easily there |
| 18:35 |
independent56 |
Hmm... what if i do not have the facilites that a cart has? |
| 18:39 |
sfan5 |
erlehmann: I was wondering since you said "just tp elsewhere", anticheat should prevent that but I guess players just have the privilege? |
| 18:39 |
independent56 |
Eh, i will let that lawales splace be |
| 18:40 |
independent56 |
I like order in my life |
| 18:40 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 anticheat does not limit down speed as that would definitely break falling |
| 18:40 |
sfan5 |
so you're suggesting not teleporting anywhere but down specifically, sure that works |
| 18:40 |
erlehmann |
basically, you'd fall, be rubber banded upwards, then fall again |
| 18:40 |
erlehmann |
yeah |
| 18:41 |
CWz |
i do wonder if anti-cheat too fast check can be bypassed. |
| 18:41 |
erlehmann |
for a moment, maybe |
| 18:42 |
erlehmann |
then you get rubberbanded |
| 18:42 |
Pexin |
wait is THAT why trampolines don't work since 5.3? |
| 18:42 |
independent56 |
New rule: Anarchy outside of 500 m of protected places |
| 18:42 |
erlehmann |
if you mean that you get rubberbanded when moving upwards fast, well |
| 18:43 |
independent56 |
Now i need to get that through my server parliment.... |
| 18:43 |
erlehmann |
independent56 how about you figure out why you are such a control freak and work on that |
| 18:43 |
erlehmann |
obviously clamity anarchy has players and your server does not? |
| 18:43 |
independent56 |
Theirs has been up longer |
| 18:43 |
Pexin |
no, I don't think so. I think something about collision changed in 5.3 and now trampolines suck, unless there's a new version of that mod, but I'm pretsy sure it just uses the "bouncy" trait |
| 18:43 |
sfan5 |
Pexin: what does "not work" mean? |
| 18:44 |
independent56 |
Probably before i even knew minetest exists |
| 18:45 |
independent56 |
I'm a control freak because it's my server. I spent literal weeks working on it |
| 18:45 |
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| 18:45 |
independent56 |
Until players can be truested enough to report griefers to me, i will not leave the server running unsupervised. |
| 18:46 |
Pexin |
trampolines used to accumulate velocity as long as you hold jump. since 5.3 it BARELY accumulates (not even noticable) and before you can even get 2x normal jump height it resets or something. I'm 70% sure it's a change in collision code |
| 18:47 |
Pexin |
I am using a fork of an older trampoline version though |
| 18:49 |
CWz |
Perhaps. When Sam jumps on the trampoline, his head quantumly detaches from the rest of his body due to the counter force provided by the trampoline, when his legs land on it, causing this phenomena |
| 18:51 |
CWz |
There used to be this softlock if the player pingponged between two objects that send the player flying vertically. |
| 18:52 |
sfan5 |
the "it resets" is the anticheat thing, been there since a while |
| 18:52 |
Pexin |
I used to put a trampoline 3 blocks above another, and go up/down between them accumulating, then step forward and shoot into the air. or at the ground and die. either way, Fun! |
| 18:52 |
sfan5 |
the other thing you're describing, dunno |
| 18:53 |
Pexin |
I know I saw code that explicitly treats vertical acceleration as "not cheating" unlike horizontal accel |
| 18:53 |
erlehmann |
Pexin try to turn off anticheat and figure out if it still happens |
| 18:54 |
erlehmann |
vertical accel is treated as cheating if you go faster than 50n/s or so |
| 18:54 |
erlehmann |
i remember it like that |
| 18:54 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Is it possible that a "quit" formspec event might close a formspec that is sent in response to it? |
| 18:55 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (without being sent again) |
| 19:03 |
Pexin |
disabling anticheat did nothing |
| 19:07 |
sfan5 |
if you're in singleplayer then it wasn't ever active |
| 19:13 |
Pexin |
if anyone's interested, I'm using trampolines from the extranodes fork in https://github.com/h-v-smacker/technic |
| 19:16 |
Pexin |
bouncy = 100, fall_damage_add_percent = -100 |
| 19:20 |
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delta23 joined #minetest |
| 19:23 |
independent56 |
https://imgur.com/a/en8Uwiw at long last! |
| 19:25 |
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proller joined #minetest |
| 19:26 |
independent56 |
But then they left |
| 19:29 |
CWz |
Heh |
| 19:30 |
CWz |
i remember back when i first started a server in 2013 i too was protective |
| 19:30 |
CWz |
back then there were little to no mobile clients |
| 19:31 |
CWz |
and less servers, so getting player to join was easy |
| 19:31 |
CWz |
then again there were just 21-24 servers |
| 19:51 |
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| 19:51 |
independent56 |
What are your tips for making spawn nicer? |
| 19:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Jordach> let them sort it out themselves |
| 19:53 |
Krock |
make the spawns random |
| 19:53 |
Krock |
spread them in a certain radius or area |
| 19:54 |
Krock |
a city center would be a good spawn for example. shops and nice houses nearby, giving a good impression |
| 19:54 |
independent56 |
yeah... nice idea |
| 19:55 |
independent56 |
I wish icould let "them" sort it out, but "them" don't exist |
| 20:00 |
Pexin |
a transparent platform floating in air, with no land in sight, and 2 identical doors with a sign saying CHOOSE YOUR FATE |
| 20:01 |
independent56 |
HAHA |
| 20:01 |
celeron55_ |
a platform right next to you just out of reach, and a 100 node drop into lava |
| 20:01 |
independent56 |
XD |
| 20:01 |
Pexin |
one leads to dark lava caves, other leads to tiny isolated sky islands |
| 20:01 |
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| 20:02 |
erlehmann |
shops are bad |
| 20:02 |
erlehmann |
stop reproducing capitalism ingame |
| 20:02 |
independent56 |
XD |
| 20:04 |
celeron55_ |
city spawns are silly in my opinion, it's so far from the actual gameplay most people want to do |
| 20:04 |
erlehmann |
yes |
| 20:04 |
celeron55_ |
maybe a small castle, with (protected) wilderness right out the gate (that you already see from the spawn) |
| 20:05 |
Pexin |
I spawned in a city, and just started walking until I found wilderness land at coords I could remember easily |
| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
independent56 check out clamity spawn without griefers, there are a bunch of anarchy servers |
| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
; minetest-servers clients |grep clam |
| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
clam.minetest.land:481401 |
| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
meseclams.minetest.land:301510 |
| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
clam.minetest.land:655351 |
| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
clam.minetest.land:555560 |
| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
clam.minetest.land:555550 |
| 20:05 |
|
erlehmann was kicked by ShadowBot: Message flood detected. Use a pastebin like paste.ubuntu.com. |
| 20:05 |
independent56 |
i have..it sucks |
| 20:05 |
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| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
sorry |
| 20:05 |
Pexin |
..back when we could still see world coords by default, grumble grumble |
| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
i thought my client limited that |
| 20:05 |
erlehmann |
independent56 try meseclams.minetest.land:30151 it is also anarchy but has little history |
| 20:05 |
celeron55_ |
the big city (that people will inevitably build) can then be some ways off if you want to travel there |
| 20:06 |
erlehmann |
yeah clamity has some secret cities |
| 20:06 |
independent56 |
Pexin, ...use debug menu? |
| 20:06 |
erlehmann |
in places where griefers will probably not find them in a long time |
| 20:06 |
erlehmann |
like *really* secret |
| 20:06 |
independent56 |
Like underground secret? |
| 20:06 |
erlehmann |
some are just on the surface though, but very far from spawn |
| 20:07 |
independent56 |
Like 20 K far? world border far? |
| 20:07 |
erlehmann |
i can't possibly comment on that |
| 20:08 |
independent56 |
Are they moral or knowladge reasons? |
| 20:08 |
Pexin |
if digtron is installed, build a rokkit and build a skybase |
| 20:08 |
erlehmann |
if i tell people how to do specific things they might change the engine to make it impossible |
| 20:09 |
erlehmann |
or rather, if i tell people that specific things are possible |
| 20:09 |
erlehmann |
lets say i am pretty sure i had part in building several bases on clamity that i don't expect to be found, ever |
| 20:10 |
erlehmann |
world border is a bad way to build your base |
| 20:10 |
Pexin |
do they have teleport pads? |
| 20:10 |
erlehmann |
but i made a funny thing in one world corner |
| 20:10 |
erlehmann |
if you manage to get there |
| 20:11 |
independent56 |
Haha |
| 20:11 |
independent56 |
You're not wasting months of my time |
| 20:11 |
erlehmann |
it is possible to get there fast you know |
| 20:11 |
erlehmann |
1 meter in the nether is 8 meter on the surface |
| 20:11 |
erlehmann |
you wlil at most waste days or hours |
| 20:12 |
erlehmann |
but that is one way to make a base hard to grief, just make it hard to reach |
| 20:12 |
erlehmann |
if even someone with flying needs more than half an hour to get there, in minetest you are probably reasonably safe |
| 20:15 |
independent56 |
Hmm... 2b2t has millions of blocks to travel |
| 20:16 |
independent56 |
Of course, a more active playerbase causes the same amount of bases to be found, if not more |
| 20:16 |
specing |
imagine if there wasnt a 32k limit |
| 20:16 |
independent56 |
There isn't. It's 31 K. I do wish it was a 100 K limit |
| 20:19 |
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| 20:19 |
independent56 |
In my opinion, a city spawn is the best way to project the server - what type of buildings does the admin like? What is his dedication to the server? |
| 20:20 |
independent56 |
But yeah, there should be a golden path to happiness and landscape |
| 20:21 |
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| 20:34 |
erlehmann |
independent56, on 2b2t people used an info leak to figure out where player bases were |
| 20:34 |
independent56 |
wow |
| 20:34 |
erlehmann |
independent56 watch the video of fit mc about the NOCOM exploit, it is amazing |
| 20:35 |
erlehmann |
independent56 i send you two links soon |
| 20:35 |
independent56 |
cool. 2b2t has a rich history. |
| 20:36 |
erlehmann |
clamity has too, but not as rich |
| 20:42 |
erlehmann |
independent56 watch this one first https://yewtu.be/watch?v=elqAh3GWRpA |
| 20:43 |
erlehmann |
independent56 then watch this one https://yewtu.be/watch?v=Xg9uF9MFEi4 |
| 20:43 |
erlehmann |
independent56 it shows how creative griefers can get |
| 20:44 |
erlehmann |
the first video is about the coordinate exploit that enabled nerds inc to grief 15k bases and steal millions of items |
| 20:44 |
independent56 |
What is "yewtube" |
| 20:44 |
erlehmann |
the second one is about the only base that is widely known to have not been affected by the exploit |
| 20:44 |
erlehmann |
an invidious installation |
| 20:44 |
erlehmann |
you can watch youtube videos there without ads |
| 20:45 |
erlehmann |
it uses youtube-dl |
| 20:45 |
independent56 |
I don't like fitmc.Just look at the community he attracts on his "masculine base hunting stream" |
| 20:45 |
* independent56 |
laughs in ublock |
| 20:45 |
erlehmann |
no idea, have never watched it |
| 20:45 |
independent56 |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCWeRTgd79JL0ilH0ZywSJA |
| 20:45 |
erlehmann |
well on my computer invidious is also better performance |
| 20:45 |
independent56 |
Underatted youtube channel |
| 20:45 |
erlehmann |
members of the only surviving base used bot accounts to sell items and attacked other bases that had item stashes |
| 20:45 |
* independent56 |
laughs in 8 GB ram |
| 20:46 |
erlehmann |
look, shitty javascript can make your computer slow to a crawl even with a ton of RAM and CPUs |
| 20:47 |
erlehmann |
just like shitty server-sent CSMs will, if anyone of the proposals to make minetest into a platform where you can send exploits … i mean SSCSMs … to clients |
| 20:47 |
independent56 |
I know.... but the only time youtube is a problem is if i leave my minetest unpaused... i often freeze uo my computer |
| 20:47 |
erlehmann |
just use invidious instances like yewtu.be |
| 20:48 |
independent56 |
I lived 10 years of youtube wihtout, i will be fine with a nonzero amount more |
| 20:51 |
specing |
erlehmann: I think SSCSM should be implemented like contentdb - so server owners have to properly publish their SSCSMs |
| 20:51 |
specing |
under a libre license, of course |
| 20:51 |
specing |
Doesen't DFC have something similar, already? |
| 20:53 |
erlehmann |
specing i think SSCSMs should not exist due to the lessons learned from the 1936 paper from alan turing “on computable numbers, with an application to the entscheidungsproblem” |
| 20:54 |
erlehmann |
specing if you read the following two papers, you will *probably* also agree: |
| 20:54 |
erlehmann |
Security Applications of Formal Language Theory, Len Sassaman, Meredith L. Patterson, Sergey Bratus, Michael E. Locasto, Anna Shubina [Dartmouth Computer Science Technical Report TR2011-709], published in IEEE Systems Journal, Volume 7, Issue 3, Sept. 2013 |
| 20:54 |
erlehmann |
http://langsec.org/papers/langsec-tr.pdf |
| 20:54 |
erlehmann |
The Seven Turrets of Babel: A Taxonomy of LangSec Errors and How to Expunge Them, Falcon Darkstar Momot, Sergey Bratus, Sven M. Hallberg, Meredith L. Patterson, in IEEE SecDev 2016, Nov. 2016, Boston. |
| 20:54 |
erlehmann |
http://langsec.org/papers/langsec-cwes-secdev2016.pdf |
| 20:54 |
erlehmann |
read them in order |
| 20:55 |
erlehmann |
the short answer is “it is not difficult to make CSMs behave, it is impossible” |
| 20:55 |
erlehmann |
i.e. no amount of testing allows you to get it right |
| 20:56 |
Pexin |
didnt stop javascript from first existing,then being widely adopted, then having its designed restrictions systematically lifted |
| 20:56 |
erlehmann |
well you don't have to make the same error as other systems in yours |
| 20:56 |
erlehmann |
also, i have heard “oh we should move more server mods client-side” *mostly* from people who are either incapable of making server mods that do not suck performance-wise |
| 20:56 |
erlehmann |
or simply do not care |
| 20:56 |
erlehmann |
take fleckenstein, he would be capable, but he simply has a powerful enough computer |
| 20:57 |
erlehmann |
do you think if *that* guy makes a CSM, it will run well on my thinkpad T60 from 2012 or so? |
| 20:57 |
erlehmann |
(there are reasons to use such a computer, for example: it works and has a 4:3 matte screen) |
| 20:58 |
sfan5 |
if misuse was an argument not to invent technologies computers would not exist and we would not be talking about this |
| 20:58 |
erlehmann |
but basically, client side turing complete code can not be made performant nor can it be made secure |
| 20:58 |
erlehmann |
oh no sfan5 you misunderstand |
| 20:58 |
erlehmann |
read http://langsec.org/papers/langsec-tr.pdf and http://langsec.org/papers/langsec-cwes-secdev2016.pdf please |
| 20:59 |
erlehmann |
the thing is you have to carefully limit the expressive power of data you send between system boundaries |
| 20:59 |
erlehmann |
lua code is simply too expressive |
| 20:59 |
erlehmann |
the grammar of the thing you want to parse has to be context-free, regular or calc-regular (think: fields prefixed by their length) |
| 21:00 |
erlehmann |
everything more powerful will never be secure or performant for the same reason: any recognizer recognizing valid input can run into a halting problem, thus hanging the program while trying to figure out the input |
| 21:01 |
erlehmann |
in short, “be liberal what you accept” is proven to be wrong, as are some other techniques |
| 21:01 |
erlehmann |
like input sanitization |
| 21:02 |
sfan5 |
that sounds agreeable |
| 21:03 |
erlehmann |
there are a lot of things that “feel” as if you just need a powerful computer or more runtime or a more clever algorithm, but the state of the art is that if you need input handling that is for something more complex than regular / context-free / calc-regular, you have painted yourself into a corner |
| 21:03 |
sfan5 |
but nobody is looking to make CSM mathematically provably secure or finite |
| 21:03 |
erlehmann |
well |
| 21:04 |
erlehmann |
lets say if someone dismisses this argument they did not understand the consequeces of it |
| 21:04 |
erlehmann |
this is not some edge case |
| 21:04 |
erlehmann |
it is the default case |
| 21:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> CSM will always be able to DOS a client, but a server can already do that too. |
| 21:04 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> So we don't really have to care about the halting problem etc. |
| 21:04 |
erlehmann |
in addition, the vast majority of problems where i have seen server-sent CSMs being touted as a good idea are … just not complex enough |
| 21:05 |
erlehmann |
> we don't really have to care about the halting problem |
| 21:05 |
erlehmann |
LOL |
| 21:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> ? |
| 21:05 |
erlehmann |
you will either stay at this opinion or at one point get a new one and laugh about your past self |
| 21:05 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I don't see your point |
| 21:06 |
erlehmann |
people thought for 40 years they don't really have to take it into account |
| 21:06 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> A while true do ... end or filling up memory can sure be annoying and might force the user to reboot their device, but other than that, they should be fine. |
| 21:06 |
erlehmann |
the thing is, by allowing turing complete input languages you get a whole category of problems that you never have if you structure your interface correctly |
| 21:07 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> A non turing complete interface is several orders of magnitude less powerful though. |
| 21:07 |
erlehmann |
luatic please read the LANGSEC papers first. if you are in a hurry and have a computer science or language philosophy background, read parts III and IV of http://langsec.org/papers/langsec-cwes-secdev2016.pdf i have no motivation to restate several pages of that paper here |
| 21:08 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Lua is a scripting language which was always designed with the idea of remote code execution in mind. I don't see why we can't isolate it properly, no matter whether we can reason about what CSMs do. |
| 21:09 |
erlehmann |
luatic the thing is, a less powerful language is easier to work with from the outside. you can answer stuff like “what is the worst runtime” or “can this be used to take over my computer”. |
| 21:10 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> As long as you abstract away the interfaces necessary to "take over your computer", you don't need to reason about it because it must be impossible. |
| 21:11 |
erlehmann |
oh good |
| 21:11 |
erlehmann |
luatic i think you have not understood the problem |
| 21:11 |
sfan5 |
I'm sure the users will be delighted to know that the O() of their CSM can be computed while CSM is not able to solve their problems |
| 21:11 |
erlehmann |
take something like nodes that have formspecs that need to have some logic behind them |
| 21:12 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Alright, formspecs. Formspec parsing can surely be done in linear time. |
| 21:12 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 what i am saying is that in almost all cases (or probably, all cases) a *server-sent* CSM (i.e. one not installed separately as an extension) that is part of some game will not solve a problem |
| 21:12 |
erlehmann |
no |
| 21:12 |
specing |
erlehmann: I think that the benefits of SSCSMs outweigh their risks. Particularly when SSCSMs are published (and hopefully reviewed) |
| 21:12 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I don't see the need to reason about any complexity, worst case is denial of service, which I consider acceptable. |
| 21:12 |
erlehmann |
specing then i guess you have not read those two papers |
| 21:13 |
erlehmann |
> worst case is denial of service |
| 21:13 |
erlehmann |
LOL |
| 21:13 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> (if we manage to properly secure our Lua environment, of course) |
| 21:13 |
specing |
erlehmann: I don't have to |
| 21:13 |
sfan5 |
erlehmann: such is life. I hope users vote by choosing servers that do not lag their clients or disabling CSM |
| 21:13 |
specing |
I'm perfectly aware that executing random code is a bad idea, but people do this anyway every hour of every day |
| 21:14 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 remember the lua disaster that was minetest 5.3¿ |
| 21:14 |
erlehmann |
? |
| 21:14 |
specing |
there's no need to hold Minetest back because of this |
| 21:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> browsers have the same issue, yet everybody is fine with executing random JS |
| 21:14 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> why should Lua be any different? |
| 21:14 |
erlehmann |
luatic the problem is once you go there you can not go back |
| 21:14 |
erlehmann |
because it is easier for content *creators* to use the more powerful interface |
| 21:14 |
erlehmann |
but the content is more often consumed than created |
| 21:15 |
erlehmann |
> users vote by choosing servers that do not lag their clients or disabling CSM |
| 21:15 |
erlehmann |
hahaha |
| 21:15 |
erlehmann |
the problem is that if you allow to disable CSM then it will just be like javascript |
| 21:15 |
erlehmann |
“this server does not work without CSM” |
| 21:15 |
erlehmann |
> if we manage to properly secure our Lua environment, of course |
| 21:15 |
specing |
"users vote by choosing websites that do not lag their browsers" |
| 21:15 |
erlehmann |
what i am saying is that this is impossible |
| 21:15 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> And that is plain wrong |
| 21:16 |
erlehmann |
luatic have you read the paper? |
| 21:16 |
Pexin |
>everybody is fine with executing random JS |
| 21:16 |
erlehmann |
it is possible by the way to have random code be secure. it just needs to be properly limited. lua does not fulfil the criteria. |
| 21:16 |
Pexin |
I'm not -_- |
| 21:16 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I know Lua 5.1 in and out by now. A secure implementation is very much possible. |
| 21:16 |
specing |
not everybody, but the vast majority |
| 21:17 |
erlehmann |
oh i guess everyone is ok with climate change as well |
| 21:17 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> hey, at least I can now populate the russian plains |
| 21:17 |
Pexin |
the vast majority of end users have no idea what javascript means |
| 21:18 |
erlehmann |
look these arguments by popularity do not make sense against fundamental laws of nature (like the halting problem, which i only used because denying its relevance exposes the denier's understanding or lack thereof regarding programming issues) |
| 21:18 |
specing |
erlehmann: the vast majority doesen't care |
| 21:18 |
erlehmann |
specing “vote”, “choosing”. where to order specific food or electronic parts if the only website uses js |
| 21:18 |
erlehmann |
untli it hits them |
| 21:18 |
erlehmann |
and then you can not go back |
| 21:18 |
sfan5 |
erlehmann: no idea what you're referring to |
| 21:18 |
specing |
erlehmann: your garden doesen't require js |
| 21:19 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 oh i thought you knew. let's say i think no one should run a minetest 5.3 server probably. |
| 21:19 |
erlehmann |
or any earlier version |
| 21:19 |
erlehmann |
after all, minetest 5.4 removed support for client-sent server-side mods? |
| 21:20 |
erlehmann |
or was that an accident and will be re-enabled in minetest 5.5 again? |
| 21:20 |
sfan5 |
??? |
| 21:20 |
erlehmann |
well if you are okay with executing random code i think you should enable it again |
| 21:20 |
Pexin |
? there used to be client-sent server-executed code? |
| 21:21 |
sfan5 |
if you have arguments that are not dishonest talk to me again, I have better things to do |
| 21:21 |
erlehmann |
ok |
| 21:21 |
independent56 |
Do admins get nostalgia from older parts of the map? Like, if they built a city and abandoned it, would they feel nostalgia visiting it again? |
| 21:22 |
independent56 |
Furthermore, would they avoid going there as not to corrupt the nostalgia with new memories? |
| 21:22 |
Pexin |
independent56: all admins or a subset of admins? |
| 21:22 |
Pexin |
in that question, shall ye find the answer |
| 21:22 |
independent56 |
Admins who own a minetest server |
| 21:23 |
independent56 |
Onewhich has been running for several years |
| 21:23 |
independent56 |
I certanly get nostalgia from old worlds |
| 21:26 |
erlehmann |
Pexin to my knowledge, yes. but since sfan5 does not know about it, it seemed to have been a feature that got little attention and i think it may have been broken accidentally, rather than on purpose? |
| 21:27 |
erlehmann |
i mean you can kinda fake it |
| 21:27 |
erlehmann |
with lua controller and stuff |
| 21:27 |
specing |
client-sent server-side mods? |
| 21:27 |
specing |
Wow, sounds awesome :D |
| 21:27 |
specing |
When can we have it? |
| 21:27 |
erlehmann |
but they can't do much |
| 21:27 |
erlehmann |
i think with a lua controller i can only crash the server |
| 21:28 |
erlehmann |
which is not very useful |
| 21:28 |
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| 21:28 |
erlehmann |
and honestly, ppl who use lua controllers “seem to be largely okay” with randos being able to crash their servers |
| 21:28 |
independent56 |
but rn, my nostalgia feeling is dead and i can't feelthe pang of old times calling for me. |
| 21:29 |
erlehmann |
<specing> When can we have it? |
| 21:29 |
erlehmann |
specing, make a PR |
| 21:29 |
erlehmann |
but anyone who thinks sending lua mods to the client can surely use the same sandbox on the server |
| 21:29 |
erlehmann |
just make it the same setting |
| 21:29 |
independent56 |
erlehmann, If that happened, i would deleteblocks the area of the luacontroller. To crash the server is to crash your home |
| 21:29 |
erlehmann |
like either SSCSMs and CSCSMs are both on or both off |
| 21:30 |
erlehmann |
that way you can truly get a vote on if executing random code is desirable (for whatever reason) |
| 21:30 |
erlehmann |
if i find a new way for client-sent CSMs in the existing code i will let you know |
| 21:30 |
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| 21:30 |
erlehmann |
i am pretty sure there is one, but i have not gotten it to work |
| 21:31 |
specing |
haxxxorz |
| 21:31 |
erlehmann |
i.e. it only crashes the server |
| 21:31 |
erlehmann |
i meant of course |
| 21:31 |
erlehmann |
if i find a new way for client-sent SSMs in the existing code i will let you know |
| 21:31 |
erlehmann |
but client-to-client CSMs would be funny as well! |
| 21:35 |
erlehmann |
Pexin if you have a minetest 5.3 server, upgrade it. |
| 21:35 |
erlehmann |
that's all i am saying |
| 21:36 |
erlehmann |
and i think no core dev would say that is bad advice |
| 21:36 |
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| 21:37 |
erlehmann |
regarding the democracy analogy, the vast majority of server owners have opted to install some widely used mods that allow players to dupe items and crash servers. they are okay with it! |
| 21:37 |
erlehmann |
(dupes are somewhat rare compared to crashes though) |
| 21:39 |
erlehmann |
is anyone here who got chess items from “chezzz” on catlandia? |
| 21:39 |
erlehmann |
that was me btw |
| 21:39 |
erlehmann |
i hope you keep good care of them |
| 21:39 |
erlehmann |
i must say it is a funny idea to make an 8x8 inventory and disguise it as a chessboard using checkerboard background |
| 21:40 |
erlehmann |
and put chess figurines in it |
| 21:40 |
erlehmann |
i mean in real life you can take the playing pieces from the chess board too! |
| 21:40 |
erlehmann |
or play chess with lumps of clay or leaves instead |
| 21:40 |
erlehmann |
so it only adds to the realism |
| 21:42 |
erlehmann |
if the funny person is here who managed to get the fluid that the mimic mob spews as an item, please tell me in a query |
| 21:42 |
erlehmann |
it might be possible to refine it into a more general fluid or falling block exploit |
| 21:44 |
specing |
cool erlehmann |
| 21:45 |
specing |
erlehmann: I could reliably crash BlS by having just the right error in just the right place in my CSMs |
| 21:45 |
specing |
so I'd crash, and the server would crash with me |
| 21:46 |
erlehmann |
specing, BIS? |
| 21:46 |
specing |
blocky survival |
| 21:47 |
erlehmann |
specing, could be that they did not check if a player is online, like the recent mineclonia bugfix |
| 21:47 |
erlehmann |
you *always* have to check |
| 21:47 |
erlehmann |
i learned it from the rubenwardy book |
| 21:47 |
specing |
it must have been something like that |
| 21:47 |
specing |
some race condition |
| 21:47 |
erlehmann |
well notify the devs then |
| 21:48 |
erlehmann |
this stuff usually requires frame-accurate client crashes to get a server crash out of it |
| 21:48 |
specing |
I did, they couldn't find it |
| 21:48 |
erlehmann |
frame as in globalstep |
| 21:49 |
erlehmann |
ah damn |
| 21:49 |
erlehmann |
specing wanna test this gem? https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/mcl_meshnode/pulls/10 |
| 21:50 |
erlehmann |
mineclone2/mineclonia/mineclone5 should have meshnode too |
| 21:50 |
erlehmann |
and cora and me are going to make it work, eventually |
| 21:52 |
specing |
Not now, I got addicted to another gmae |
| 21:53 |
erlehmann |
which one |
| 21:54 |
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| 21:55 |
specing |
erlehmann: Hideous Destructor https://codeberg.org/mc776/hideousdestructor |
| 22:15 |
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| 22:46 |
Sven_vB |
erlehmann, thanks for the LangSec papers. very good reads. |
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| 22:49 |
Sven_vB |
the practical approach for people who want a popular game though, is to hope enough sandboxing can minimize the impact of doing stuff wrong. |
| 22:49 |
Sven_vB |
fortunately MT doesn't need to be that kind of "popular" |
| 22:50 |
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| 22:53 |
erlehmann |
Sven_vB not only for popular games. browsers, other stuff too. |
| 22:53 |
erlehmann |
it is just the easiest solution |
| 22:54 |
erlehmann |
and people think they can solve the rest of the problem on the way there |
| 22:54 |
Sven_vB |
I'd call it the least impossible non-solution |
| 22:54 |
erlehmann |
lol yes |
| 22:55 |
erlehmann |
in the end, saying that sandboxing code like that works is like saying your free energy device is giving back 98% of the energy you put in to run it, you only need a few percent to make it go positive! |
| 22:55 |
erlehmann |
like yeah, that is true |
| 22:55 |
erlehmann |
but you won't get the few percent, ever |
| 22:56 |
erlehmann |
Sven_vB what do you think of my idea to put client-sent server mods and server-sent client mods behind the same flag? |
| 22:56 |
erlehmann |
after all, if someone *really* thinks lua is secure that should ork |
| 22:56 |
erlehmann |
work |
| 22:56 |
erlehmann |
and we do have precedent, lua pipes and lua controller |
| 22:56 |
erlehmann |
(both which are a security and crashycrashy nightmare for admins) |
| 22:59 |
Sven_vB |
on totally another note, I have problems collecting items from the ground, because aiming at them precisely takes me much time. it's made worse by my favorite server lagging horribly at times, so I don't even get good feedback when I try to just spamclick an area. is there any way (without CSM :D) to make my client help me collect them? most time there's only one item on the block surface, so it should be easy to guess which one I meant. |
| 23:00 |
Sven_vB |
erlehmann, I haven't yet read enough log to have an opinion about those flags. |
| 23:04 |
Pexin |
Sven_vB: modify vacuum mod so it has infinite uses, and convince admin to install it? |
| 23:05 |
Sven_vB |
I wish my search engine could find a text version that doesn't split words and marks paragraphs by some other way than just geometry. starting at page 4 it's almost unreadable for my text-to-speech. |
| 23:05 |
* Pexin |
ponders extra keybindings.. |
| 23:05 |
Sven_vB |
(of the langsec cwes paper) |
| 23:06 |
Sven_vB |
Pexin, already tried to convince the admin. we couldn't agree on the conditions. |
| 23:08 |
Sven_vB |
guess I'll put the langsec papers on the "read later" stash for when I had time to find good OCR software. |
| 23:11 |
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| 23:33 |
Sven_vB |
erlehmann, now I read the idea about using the same flag, and I disagree. each participant should be empowered to configure how many resources (CPU, RAM, ???) they want to offer to other participants. |
| 23:34 |
Sven_vB |
we can then make MT a distributed computing platform, and maybe even add a block chain. |
| 23:47 |
erlehmann |
lol |
| 23:47 |
erlehmann |
Sven_vB oh i do expect people who say that client-sent server side mods are a bad idea bc executing arbitrary code etc. – but then they should also say that server-sent client-side mods are a bad idea bc executing arbitrary code. |
| 23:48 |
erlehmann |
like either it is entirely safe and won't lag anything or it is not |
| 23:48 |
erlehmann |
there is not really a *choice* if there is no valid alternative |
| 23:48 |
erlehmann |
up until minetest 5.4 you basically *had* to run with the option of client-sent server-side mods |
| 23:49 |
erlehmann |
“option” |
| 23:49 |
erlehmann |
;) |
| 23:49 |
erlehmann |
> is there any way (without CSM :D) to make my client help me collect them |
| 23:49 |
erlehmann |
cora has written a csm to collect items on laggy servers |
| 23:50 |
erlehmann |
jordan4ibanez a.k.a. oilboi has written code for better item pickup on laggy servers, which is probably in his crafter mod |
| 23:50 |
erlehmann |
sadly neither cora nor me could make sense of it |
| 23:51 |
erlehmann |
Sven_vB regarding langsec, you can probably email meredith patterson and ask her if she has some other format? sorry :/ |
| 23:56 |
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