Time Nick Message 00:56 jonadab independent56: Or set all the nodes from -10000,-10000,-10000 to 10000,10000,10000 to lava sources. 00:56 independent56 0_o 00:56 jonadab WE is too much power to give to anyone you don't trust completely. 00:57 independent56 WE dosen't respect area protection? 00:57 jonadab ... I haven't tested that. But I wouldn't count on it. 00:57 jonadab WE is an admin tool. 00:58 jonadab It's really really useful for stuff like testing a work-in-progress mod. 00:58 independent56 Are edit blocks considered as dnagerous as we? 00:58 jonadab If you want to give players a way to build large things that don't have a lot of detail, other than placing every block, install digtron. 00:59 jonadab I don't know about edit blocks. 01:00 MTDiscord i mean, if you want to have fun give me worldedit, server, and turn off mod security :p 01:00 independent56 Basically, i use the fill block. You place two at corners,and you select material from your inventory. Theya re greatfror item dupes in survial,and great for medium size building in creative. 01:00 MTDiscord . //lua would be fun 01:00 independent56 0_o 01:00 * jonadab used digtron to build a tower about three hundred blocks tall on li-fo; I also used it quite a bit when building a large skating rink (the kind that would host a pro hockey team). 01:01 jonadab Digtron did not do 100% of either build; I had to put in some details by hand. 01:02 jonadab But it automated the tedious/repetitive parts very well. 01:02 independent56 cool... i built an entire town there before they erased me and refuses to give me my data 01:02 independent56 cool 01:03 jonadab I ended up leaving li-fo when I was "between builds" (i.e., had no really compelling projects I wanted to work on); the reason I don't go back, is because I have developed specific ideas about mods, that are different from theirs. 01:03 jonadab For example, I have concluded that train-related mods are a really bad idea. 01:04 jonadab At least for the way I want to play. 01:05 independent56 I ended up leaving because they became very hostile. 01:05 jonadab I also have some reservations about the culture on there. Some people are very friendly and helpful, but the way they sometimes talk about people who have left the server in the past, sends up red flags for me. 01:06 jonadab Nothing concrete, just... makes me a little uncomfortable. 01:06 independent56 I wish i got those red flags. Give me an example...was it like "seperatist"? 01:06 jonadab There are some really nice builds on the server, though. 01:06 independent56 I wish i could go back and visit them. 01:06 jonadab Some of the things they say about separatists would be an example, yes. 01:07 independent56 give me a quote (can be rough around the edges) 01:07 jonadab You get the idea they're deeply offended if anybody wants to go start a different server. 01:07 jonadab I don't have an exact quote; it's been months. 01:08 jonadab But I just felt like I was getting a very one-sided account. 01:08 independent56 Please don't go back. If you were to inflame them more, then you may end uperassedina similar fashion to myself. 01:08 jonadab It could be nothing. It was never anything concrete. 01:09 independent56 They have the best server in the world, a shame that it is owned by dictators as mad as lukashenkov. 01:09 jonadab If I go back, it will just be to look at the world. I don't plan on building there any more. I've started another world and am not looking back. 01:10 independent56 http://56i.duckdns.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=lf Has a timeline of what happened to me if yhou're intrested 01:10 jonadab If I thought I could find anyone who would do a decent job of it, I would go back to hand off control of certain areas, notably the Tech Mall. But realistically, their long-time regulars have other things to do, and anybody else is just going to drift in and drift out. 01:10 MTDiscord your still salty over that? 01:11 jonadab So the Tech Mall will just have to go unstocked I guess. 01:11 jonadab A shame, that was a worthy project; but I have moved on. 01:11 independent56 Jonathon: How would you feel if a year of work close to you was deleted irrecoverably from you? 01:12 independent56 jonadab, Enable local map saving. It is the only way i saved my buildings from their evil grasp 01:12 MTDiscord its been a few months, i would have moved on and maybe hoped i could patch it up in the future 01:12 MTDiscord rehashing old wounds doesnt help 01:13 independent56 hmm 01:14 jonadab Also, server admins *have* to be dictators, it goes with the job description. You hope for benevolent dictators, but you can't run a public server as a democracy, the griefers will outvote everyone else. 01:14 independent56 Yeah, i agree. Just that they are Lukashenkov level dictators, not pope francis level dictators 01:14 independent56 (legally, he is a dictator) 01:15 independent56 I'm probably too tired totalk about this without getting a ban.... somehwere. 01:15 independent56 goodnight 01:15 MTDiscord night 01:15 jonadab Good night. 01:16 jonadab The only time the admins on there ever got after me, was when I inadvertently caused a lot of lag, due to my inexperience. And all they did was tell me that the thing I was doing was causing lag and to stop that. 01:17 jonadab So I haven't had the experience you had. 01:17 independent56 Ine final thing to keep you occupied: tart with any positive integer n. Then each term is obtained from the previous term as follows: if the previous term is even, the next term is one half of the previous term. If the previous term is odd, the next term is 3 times the previous term plus 1. The conjecture is that no matter what value of n, the sequence will always reach 1. Prove this conjecture. 01:17 jonadab I'm familiar with that one. 01:18 jonadab I think Mathologer did a video on it. 01:18 independent56 It's a trick to keep you thinking for years 01:18 independent56 https://explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/356:_Nerd_Sniping 01:19 jonadab Eh, just let Hugh go back to the collective. 01:19 jonadab It's easier. 01:22 independent56 Wait... knowing Gabriel is a mathematican, we can use this info and the collatz conjecture to nerd-snipe him and ake down LF! 01:22 specing all this talk makes me want to play on LF 01:23 independent56 If you do, please nerd-snipe the admin 01:25 specing why 01:26 independent56 it will be funny 01:29 independent56 Well, final goodnights. 02:33 erlehmann i know how to make ppl not glorify neoliberalism, do it like the western game red dead redemption 2: it has about 20 bisons, but every other animal mob respawns. therefore players can easily make bisons go extinct in that game and get an achievement for it to rub it in. 08:54 MTDiscord independent56: That's Goldbach's conjecture 08:56 MTDiscord Not Goldbach sorry, it's the Collatz sequence 09:18 independent56 Ha! You were wrong on the internet! 10:27 MTDiscord WE is so extremely fast BECAUSE it ignores almost everything that could be triggered by it...node callbacks, protection checks, metadata nad more 10:29 MTDiscord Nodes changed via WE will also not get logged anywhere so that's at least 2 reasons to not give it to every player 11:20 MTDiscord Obligatory https://xkcd.com/710/ 11:31 independent56 Advtrains ARS stands for Approach Route Setting, not Automaic Route Setting ;-) 12:52 independent56 Can one of you encourage me to interlock the 5 Km railway line i made? 14:30 [A_A] Unknown nodes crash worldedit... 14:32 specing cheater :P 14:32 Krock air (you hacker you= 14:42 sfan5 that's news to me 14:42 sfan5 maybe if they wrote a proper bug report I could investigate this 14:50 MTDiscord What code in the engine causes 'dedicated servers' to not override the conf file on shutdown while SP seemingly does? What I mean is that I can edit my server's conf file whiole it runs and it will remember my changes on restart 14:53 MTDiscord And in SP you have to edit the conf while MT is not used for your changes to apply it seems 15:57 independent56 Are there any examples of a democraic MT server, where the admin only maintains the server (keeps it running) and does not take care of it, allowing the people inside to do what they like in terms of power? 15:58 MTDiscord sounds like a anarchy server 15:58 independent56 oh cool. But i meant more organised: a handful of players play governemnt and keep the server from anacrchy and keep it organised. 15:58 independent56 They give themselves privs, and the common people get a vote 15:59 MTDiscord then no, not aware of anything like that 16:00 independent56 I should make one. I am admin for a while, but when a suficent playerbase arrives, three get to be a co-operative parliment, asking em to make changes. I can be a monarch, controlling the server, but only udner the instruction of my three MPs. And they are seperately voted inby trustworthy playrers. 16:01 independent56 Such an idea won't work if there are less then 10 people 16:05 independent56 If i such a thing happens on LF and they get the wrong people (relative to them), then they could get me my pages back. If only minetest did not encourage such dictatorships. 16:07 independent56 Hey, maybe i wouldn't have lsot them if they ahd that form of power structure. My reccomended term length is a month. 16:22 specing pages? 16:26 Pexin waits for pedophiles to take over independent56's server 16:27 independent56 specing, You'd understand if you asked for the link 16:27 independent56 Pexin, Not my main server, an anarchy server. Then boom!p;ayers join and i establish democracy in a lawless land. 16:28 Pexin waits for pedophiles to take over independent56's democracy 16:28 independent56 I will use the power of myself, as god, to banish them with a single command - /shutdown 16:29 Pexin such democratic 16:30 erlehmann independent56 Jonathon your-land.de has voting and mayors i think? 16:30 independent56 cool 16:30 erlehmann go there or go anarchy 16:31 independent56 Doesthe protection work with anarchy servers? 16:31 erlehmann no, anarchists, including myself, make a mockery of protection blocks 16:31 erlehmann a friend of mine once was so annoyed by locked chests that she built a house of them 16:32 erlehmann since they are protected blocks 16:32 erlehmann indestructible house 16:32 erlehmann it hopefully annoyed other people 16:33 independent56 aye, but i am too lazy to vet moderators. Build a server from lowly ashes. 16:33 specing Does clamity anarchy even have area protections? 16:34 independent56 My version of anarchy is this: minimal admin action, with the players trusted to organise themselves. 16:34 erlehmann of course not 16:35 erlehmann area protection and protection blocks are absolutely haram 16:35 erlehmann > minimal admin action, with the players trusted to organise themselves. 16:35 erlehmann independent56 join clamity and see how it goes 16:35 erlehmann independent56 for a more structured thing, join your-land.de 16:35 independent56 Cool 16:35 independent56 I'll have a lookwheni finish making routes 16:35 Calinou heh, I remember building a house with locked chests on Minecraft anarchy servers 16:35 Calinou or locked furnaces 16:36 independent56 Wait... they exist on vanilla minecraft? 16:36 Calinou no, but they do with plugins 16:37 specing erlehmann: I wonder what you people even do on clamity, you come to spawn and it's the typical wrecked anarchy spawn 16:38 specing there's noone around 16:38 specing you quit 16:38 erlehmann specing oh you 16:38 erlehmann try traveling the world 16:38 erlehmann specing in my understanding the spawn is to filter out people with a low frustration tolerance 16:39 erlehmann if i meet another player on there, regardless if that player is 52 year old or 12 year old, i must assume they have survived spawn 16:40 erlehmann but if ppl join, fall to their death a dozen times, then quit … well, they do probably not belong there 16:40 erlehmann clamity has the coolest things 16:41 specing the coolest things ... stored in locked chests because no area protections 16:42 erlehmann specing there exist no locked chests 16:42 erlehmann admins make sure of that 16:42 erlehmann specing try basehunting, you'll find wonderful things. 16:47 independent56 To my civilised eyes, basehunting is a sport as insane as burgalry: destruction of property for marginal gain. 16:49 erlehmann well i do basehunting 16:49 erlehmann i just don't destroy the bases 16:49 erlehmann on the contrary, i hide gifts in them 16:50 independent56 Nice 16:51 independent56 Without proection, i won't play on a server. 16:52 erlehmann that's your problem 16:52 erlehmann independent56 without protection, you have to get along with people 16:52 independent56 meh 16:55 jonadab If it's a _public_ server, area protection is a practical necessity. 16:55 jonadab On a private server, it may not be required, depending on who you have on your server. 16:58 erlehmann If it's a _public_ server, area protection is a practical necessity. 16:58 erlehmann the existence of multiple clamity servers proves otherwise 16:59 independent56 I mean, still will play, but i wont build 16:59 erlehmann wanna come to clamity and i help you a bit and give you a tour?? 17:00 erlehmann like right now? 17:01 erlehmann independent56 17:01 independent56 Yes 17:01 erlehmann ok good 17:01 erlehmann come there then 17:01 independent56 Can't find the list 17:01 independent56 sorry, mispelt it 17:02 * independent56 shuts down own server before playing, because i am a cotnrol freak 17:03 Pexin such democratic 17:04 independent56 My server is a dictatorship, not a democrasy 17:04 independent56 Well... i refuse to respawn 17:04 Pexin someone please suggest what channel I should ask for help about this new github cli auth shenanigans 17:05 independent56 ##programming 17:05 erlehmann independent56 get away from spawn before that person kills you again 17:06 independent56 He is too fast and i am too slow 17:06 specing Pexin: still persisting on github? 17:06 Pexin #programming has...... a lot of users 17:06 independent56 erlehmann, I might as well just wait an hour 17:06 Pexin specing: literally the only reason I have an account is for one contribution to MT 17:07 Pexin i'd be on svn/sourceforge else 17:07 specing Oh wow, people still use sourceforge 17:07 independent56 Literally, i just look for his nametag, and before i can even find it, i have that annoying "you did" screen. 17:08 specing Pexin: if something is on github, I just dont contribute 17:08 specing (if the only way to contribute is by going through github) 17:12 erlehmann yeah github sucks so much 17:21 independent56 If he's american, i will wait for morning. If he'seuropean, i will stay up 17:22 erlehmann independent56 the person left 17:26 independent56 Has not 17:26 independent56 he just did \me left 17:26 erlehmann hehe 17:27 * Pexin left right left 17:27 CWz i wonder if he's cheating... 17:27 independent56 \me has quite (example) 17:28 * independent56 has quit (example) 17:28 independent56 like that 17:32 MinetestBot 02[git] 04pecksin -> 03minetest/minetest: Remove closing paren as weblink delimiter 13040aed3 https://git.io/JEiR6 (152021-08-29T17:30:33Z) 17:53 independent56 I have the weapon of servers.minetest.net. Can't wait to see They're gone. 17:54 CWz Who? 17:56 independent56 That griefer on clamity. I want to look at an anarchy server. Spawnkilling is cruel, but it is still legal in some archaic minetest servers. 17:58 CWz Beat them up then. the winner in battle between two sams is determined by who can repeated click their mouse faster 18:00 rubenwardy Griefing and anarchy seems contradictory 18:00 CWz How so? 18:00 Pexin griefing and anarchy seems identical 18:02 CWz is that griefer armed with more than just a fist? 18:06 independent56 Yeah. I literally can't find their nametag when i respawn 18:20 Pexin nuke arrow mod 18:20 Pexin BestMod 18:25 erlehmann independent56 it is some asshole named owl, either get a cheat client and tp away from spawn (the end sky is very big in mcl2-derived mods) or just manage to get away from spawn at some point and survive 18:25 independent56 Yeah, good idea 18:26 independent56 Looks like they're out 18:27 sfan5 does clamity come with anticheat disabled? 18:28 specing CWz: repeated click? Heh, you have automatic combat CSMs. 18:29 independent56 How do i escape? Advice? 18:30 CWz independent56, um do you have fast? 18:30 independent56 I mean, i am a lowly walker 18:30 independent56 no special privs; this is clamity or ctalamy or something 18:32 erlehmann does clamity come with anticheat disabled? 18:32 erlehmann sfan5 no clamity has anticheat 18:33 erlehmann sfan5 but hacked clients are not frowned upon 18:33 erlehmann and anticheat is a joke 18:33 erlehmann it is pretty much just a speed limit 18:33 erlehmann and also prevents trampolines from working 18:33 MTDiscord and boats 18:33 erlehmann oh what is the problem with anticheat and boats? 18:34 MTDiscord you get reset a lot 18:34 erlehmann ah 18:34 MTDiscord more so depending on how laggy the server is 18:34 sfan5 fixed in 5.4.0 18:34 erlehmann independent56 go away from spawn along the rail lines, build your base at least 10k out, several 1k from the rails, do not build on the diagonals 18:34 sfan5 if not, open an issue 18:35 erlehmann independent56 it is easier to get that far out by going to the nether first, also owl will not find you that easily there 18:35 independent56 Hmm... what if i do not have the facilites that a cart has? 18:39 sfan5 erlehmann: I was wondering since you said "just tp elsewhere", anticheat should prevent that but I guess players just have the privilege? 18:39 independent56 Eh, i will let that lawales splace be 18:40 independent56 I like order in my life 18:40 erlehmann sfan5 anticheat does not limit down speed as that would definitely break falling 18:40 sfan5 so you're suggesting not teleporting anywhere but down specifically, sure that works 18:40 erlehmann basically, you'd fall, be rubber banded upwards, then fall again 18:40 erlehmann yeah 18:41 CWz i do wonder if anti-cheat too fast check can be bypassed. 18:41 erlehmann for a moment, maybe 18:42 erlehmann then you get rubberbanded 18:42 Pexin wait is THAT why trampolines don't work since 5.3? 18:42 independent56 New rule: Anarchy outside of 500 m of protected places 18:42 erlehmann if you mean that you get rubberbanded when moving upwards fast, well 18:43 independent56 Now i need to get that through my server parliment.... 18:43 erlehmann independent56 how about you figure out why you are such a control freak and work on that 18:43 erlehmann obviously clamity anarchy has players and your server does not? 18:43 independent56 Theirs has been up longer 18:43 Pexin no, I don't think so. I think something about collision changed in 5.3 and now trampolines suck, unless there's a new version of that mod, but I'm pretsy sure it just uses the "bouncy" trait 18:43 sfan5 Pexin: what does "not work" mean? 18:44 independent56 Probably before i even knew minetest exists 18:45 independent56 I'm a control freak because it's my server. I spent literal weeks working on it 18:45 independent56 Until players can be truested enough to report griefers to me, i will not leave the server running unsupervised. 18:46 Pexin trampolines used to accumulate velocity as long as you hold jump. since 5.3 it BARELY accumulates (not even noticable) and before you can even get 2x normal jump height it resets or something. I'm 70% sure it's a change in collision code 18:47 Pexin I am using a fork of an older trampoline version though 18:49 CWz Perhaps. When Sam jumps on the trampoline, his head quantumly detaches from the rest of his body due to the counter force provided by the trampoline, when his legs land on it, causing this phenomena 18:51 CWz There used to be this softlock if the player pingponged between two objects that send the player flying vertically. 18:52 sfan5 the "it resets" is the anticheat thing, been there since a while 18:52 Pexin I used to put a trampoline 3 blocks above another, and go up/down between them accumulating, then step forward and shoot into the air. or at the ground and die. either way, Fun! 18:52 sfan5 the other thing you're describing, dunno 18:53 Pexin I know I saw code that explicitly treats vertical acceleration as "not cheating" unlike horizontal accel 18:53 erlehmann Pexin try to turn off anticheat and figure out if it still happens 18:54 erlehmann vertical accel is treated as cheating if you go faster than 50n/s or so 18:54 erlehmann i remember it like that 18:54 MTDiscord Is it possible that a "quit" formspec event might close a formspec that is sent in response to it? 18:55 MTDiscord (without being sent again) 19:03 Pexin disabling anticheat did nothing 19:07 sfan5 if you're in singleplayer then it wasn't ever active 19:13 Pexin if anyone's interested, I'm using trampolines from the extranodes fork in https://github.com/h-v-smacker/technic 19:16 Pexin bouncy = 100, fall_damage_add_percent = -100 19:23 independent56 https://imgur.com/a/en8Uwiw at long last! 19:26 independent56 But then they left 19:29 CWz Heh 19:30 CWz i remember back when i first started a server in 2013 i too was protective 19:30 CWz back then there were little to no mobile clients 19:31 CWz and less servers, so getting player to join was easy 19:31 CWz then again there were just 21-24 servers 19:51 independent56 What are your tips for making spawn nicer? 19:53 MTDiscord let them sort it out themselves 19:53 Krock make the spawns random 19:53 Krock spread them in a certain radius or area 19:54 Krock a city center would be a good spawn for example. shops and nice houses nearby, giving a good impression 19:54 independent56 yeah... nice idea 19:55 independent56 I wish icould let "them" sort it out, but "them" don't exist 20:00 Pexin a transparent platform floating in air, with no land in sight, and 2 identical doors with a sign saying CHOOSE YOUR FATE 20:01 independent56 HAHA 20:01 celeron55_ a platform right next to you just out of reach, and a 100 node drop into lava 20:01 independent56 XD 20:01 Pexin one leads to dark lava caves, other leads to tiny isolated sky islands 20:02 erlehmann shops are bad 20:02 erlehmann stop reproducing capitalism ingame 20:02 independent56 XD 20:04 celeron55_ city spawns are silly in my opinion, it's so far from the actual gameplay most people want to do 20:04 erlehmann yes 20:04 celeron55_ maybe a small castle, with (protected) wilderness right out the gate (that you already see from the spawn) 20:05 Pexin I spawned in a city, and just started walking until I found wilderness land at coords I could remember easily 20:05 erlehmann independent56 check out clamity spawn without griefers, there are a bunch of anarchy servers 20:05 erlehmann ; minetest-servers clients |grep clam 20:05 erlehmann clam.minetest.land:48140 1 20:05 erlehmann meseclams.minetest.land:30151 0 20:05 erlehmann clam.minetest.land:65535 1 20:05 erlehmann clam.minetest.land:55556 0 20:05 erlehmann clam.minetest.land:55555 0 20:05 independent56 i have..it sucks 20:05 erlehmann sorry 20:05 Pexin ..back when we could still see world coords by default, grumble grumble 20:05 erlehmann i thought my client limited that 20:05 erlehmann independent56 try meseclams.minetest.land:30151 it is also anarchy but has little history 20:05 celeron55_ the big city (that people will inevitably build) can then be some ways off if you want to travel there 20:06 erlehmann yeah clamity has some secret cities 20:06 independent56 Pexin, ...use debug menu? 20:06 erlehmann in places where griefers will probably not find them in a long time 20:06 erlehmann like *really* secret 20:06 independent56 Like underground secret? 20:06 erlehmann some are just on the surface though, but very far from spawn 20:07 independent56 Like 20 K far? world border far? 20:07 erlehmann i can't possibly comment on that 20:08 independent56 Are they moral or knowladge reasons? 20:08 Pexin if digtron is installed, build a rokkit and build a skybase 20:08 erlehmann if i tell people how to do specific things they might change the engine to make it impossible 20:09 erlehmann or rather, if i tell people that specific things are possible 20:09 erlehmann lets say i am pretty sure i had part in building several bases on clamity that i don't expect to be found, ever 20:10 erlehmann world border is a bad way to build your base 20:10 Pexin do they have teleport pads? 20:10 erlehmann but i made a funny thing in one world corner 20:10 erlehmann if you manage to get there 20:11 independent56 Haha 20:11 independent56 You're not wasting months of my time 20:11 erlehmann it is possible to get there fast you know 20:11 erlehmann 1 meter in the nether is 8 meter on the surface 20:11 erlehmann you wlil at most waste days or hours 20:12 erlehmann but that is one way to make a base hard to grief, just make it hard to reach 20:12 erlehmann if even someone with flying needs more than half an hour to get there, in minetest you are probably reasonably safe 20:15 independent56 Hmm... 2b2t has millions of blocks to travel 20:16 independent56 Of course, a more active playerbase causes the same amount of bases to be found, if not more 20:16 specing imagine if there wasnt a 32k limit 20:16 independent56 There isn't. It's 31 K. I do wish it was a 100 K limit 20:19 independent56 In my opinion, a city spawn is the best way to project the server - what type of buildings does the admin like? What is his dedication to the server? 20:20 independent56 But yeah, there should be a golden path to happiness and landscape 20:34 erlehmann independent56, on 2b2t people used an info leak to figure out where player bases were 20:34 independent56 wow 20:34 erlehmann independent56 watch the video of fit mc about the NOCOM exploit, it is amazing 20:35 erlehmann independent56 i send you two links soon 20:35 independent56 cool. 2b2t has a rich history. 20:36 erlehmann clamity has too, but not as rich 20:42 erlehmann independent56 watch this one first https://yewtu.be/watch?v=elqAh3GWRpA 20:43 erlehmann independent56 then watch this one https://yewtu.be/watch?v=Xg9uF9MFEi4 20:43 erlehmann independent56 it shows how creative griefers can get 20:44 erlehmann the first video is about the coordinate exploit that enabled nerds inc to grief 15k bases and steal millions of items 20:44 independent56 What is "yewtube" 20:44 erlehmann the second one is about the only base that is widely known to have not been affected by the exploit 20:44 erlehmann an invidious installation 20:44 erlehmann you can watch youtube videos there without ads 20:45 erlehmann it uses youtube-dl 20:45 independent56 I don't like fitmc.Just look at the community he attracts on his "masculine base hunting stream" 20:45 * independent56 laughs in ublock 20:45 erlehmann no idea, have never watched it 20:45 independent56 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCWeRTgd79JL0ilH0ZywSJA 20:45 erlehmann well on my computer invidious is also better performance 20:45 independent56 Underatted youtube channel 20:45 erlehmann members of the only surviving base used bot accounts to sell items and attacked other bases that had item stashes 20:45 * independent56 laughs in 8 GB ram 20:46 erlehmann look, shitty javascript can make your computer slow to a crawl even with a ton of RAM and CPUs 20:47 erlehmann just like shitty server-sent CSMs will, if anyone of the proposals to make minetest into a platform where you can send exploits … i mean SSCSMs … to clients 20:47 independent56 I know.... but the only time youtube is a problem is if i leave my minetest unpaused... i often freeze uo my computer 20:47 erlehmann just use invidious instances like yewtu.be 20:48 independent56 I lived 10 years of youtube wihtout, i will be fine with a nonzero amount more 20:51 specing erlehmann: I think SSCSM should be implemented like contentdb - so server owners have to properly publish their SSCSMs 20:51 specing under a libre license, of course 20:51 specing Doesen't DFC have something similar, already? 20:53 erlehmann specing i think SSCSMs should not exist due to the lessons learned from the 1936 paper from alan turing “on computable numbers, with an application to the entscheidungsproblem” 20:54 erlehmann specing if you read the following two papers, you will *probably* also agree: 20:54 erlehmann Security Applications of Formal Language Theory, Len Sassaman, Meredith L. Patterson, Sergey Bratus, Michael E. Locasto, Anna Shubina [Dartmouth Computer Science Technical Report TR2011-709], published in IEEE Systems Journal, Volume 7, Issue 3, Sept. 2013 20:54 erlehmann http://langsec.org/papers/langsec-tr.pdf 20:54 erlehmann The Seven Turrets of Babel: A Taxonomy of LangSec Errors and How to Expunge Them, Falcon Darkstar Momot, Sergey Bratus, Sven M. Hallberg, Meredith L. Patterson, in IEEE SecDev 2016, Nov. 2016, Boston. 20:54 erlehmann http://langsec.org/papers/langsec-cwes-secdev2016.pdf 20:54 erlehmann read them in order 20:55 erlehmann the short answer is “it is not difficult to make CSMs behave, it is impossible” 20:55 erlehmann i.e. no amount of testing allows you to get it right 20:56 Pexin didnt stop javascript from first existing,then being widely adopted, then having its designed restrictions systematically lifted 20:56 erlehmann well you don't have to make the same error as other systems in yours 20:56 erlehmann also, i have heard “oh we should move more server mods client-side” *mostly* from people who are either incapable of making server mods that do not suck performance-wise 20:56 erlehmann or simply do not care 20:56 erlehmann take fleckenstein, he would be capable, but he simply has a powerful enough computer 20:57 erlehmann do you think if *that* guy makes a CSM, it will run well on my thinkpad T60 from 2012 or so? 20:57 erlehmann (there are reasons to use such a computer, for example: it works and has a 4:3 matte screen) 20:58 sfan5 if misuse was an argument not to invent technologies computers would not exist and we would not be talking about this 20:58 erlehmann but basically, client side turing complete code can not be made performant nor can it be made secure 20:58 erlehmann oh no sfan5 you misunderstand 20:58 erlehmann read http://langsec.org/papers/langsec-tr.pdf and http://langsec.org/papers/langsec-cwes-secdev2016.pdf please 20:59 erlehmann the thing is you have to carefully limit the expressive power of data you send between system boundaries 20:59 erlehmann lua code is simply too expressive 20:59 erlehmann the grammar of the thing you want to parse has to be context-free, regular or calc-regular (think: fields prefixed by their length) 21:00 erlehmann everything more powerful will never be secure or performant for the same reason: any recognizer recognizing valid input can run into a halting problem, thus hanging the program while trying to figure out the input 21:01 erlehmann in short, “be liberal what you accept” is proven to be wrong, as are some other techniques 21:01 erlehmann like input sanitization 21:02 sfan5 that sounds agreeable 21:03 erlehmann there are a lot of things that “feel” as if you just need a powerful computer or more runtime or a more clever algorithm, but the state of the art is that if you need input handling that is for something more complex than regular / context-free / calc-regular, you have painted yourself into a corner 21:03 sfan5 but nobody is looking to make CSM mathematically provably secure or finite 21:03 erlehmann well 21:04 erlehmann lets say if someone dismisses this argument they did not understand the consequeces of it 21:04 erlehmann this is not some edge case 21:04 erlehmann it is the default case 21:04 MTDiscord CSM will always be able to DOS a client, but a server can already do that too. 21:04 MTDiscord So we don't really have to care about the halting problem etc. 21:04 erlehmann in addition, the vast majority of problems where i have seen server-sent CSMs being touted as a good idea are … just not complex enough 21:05 erlehmann > we don't really have to care about the halting problem 21:05 erlehmann LOL 21:05 MTDiscord ? 21:05 erlehmann you will either stay at this opinion or at one point get a new one and laugh about your past self 21:05 MTDiscord I don't see your point 21:06 erlehmann people thought for 40 years they don't really have to take it into account 21:06 MTDiscord A while true do ... end or filling up memory can sure be annoying and might force the user to reboot their device, but other than that, they should be fine. 21:06 erlehmann the thing is, by allowing turing complete input languages you get a whole category of problems that you never have if you structure your interface correctly 21:07 MTDiscord A non turing complete interface is several orders of magnitude less powerful though. 21:07 erlehmann luatic please read the LANGSEC papers first. if you are in a hurry and have a computer science or language philosophy background, read parts III and IV of http://langsec.org/papers/langsec-cwes-secdev2016.pdf i have no motivation to restate several pages of that paper here 21:08 MTDiscord Lua is a scripting language which was always designed with the idea of remote code execution in mind. I don't see why we can't isolate it properly, no matter whether we can reason about what CSMs do. 21:09 erlehmann luatic the thing is, a less powerful language is easier to work with from the outside. you can answer stuff like “what is the worst runtime” or “can this be used to take over my computer”. 21:10 MTDiscord As long as you abstract away the interfaces necessary to "take over your computer", you don't need to reason about it because it must be impossible. 21:11 erlehmann oh good 21:11 erlehmann luatic i think you have not understood the problem 21:11 sfan5 I'm sure the users will be delighted to know that the O() of their CSM can be computed while CSM is not able to solve their problems 21:11 erlehmann take something like nodes that have formspecs that need to have some logic behind them 21:12 MTDiscord Alright, formspecs. Formspec parsing can surely be done in linear time. 21:12 erlehmann sfan5 what i am saying is that in almost all cases (or probably, all cases) a *server-sent* CSM (i.e. one not installed separately as an extension) that is part of some game will not solve a problem 21:12 erlehmann no 21:12 specing erlehmann: I think that the benefits of SSCSMs outweigh their risks. Particularly when SSCSMs are published (and hopefully reviewed) 21:12 MTDiscord I don't see the need to reason about any complexity, worst case is denial of service, which I consider acceptable. 21:12 erlehmann specing then i guess you have not read those two papers 21:13 erlehmann > worst case is denial of service 21:13 erlehmann LOL 21:13 MTDiscord (if we manage to properly secure our Lua environment, of course) 21:13 specing erlehmann: I don't have to 21:13 sfan5 erlehmann: such is life. I hope users vote by choosing servers that do not lag their clients or disabling CSM 21:13 specing I'm perfectly aware that executing random code is a bad idea, but people do this anyway every hour of every day 21:14 erlehmann sfan5 remember the lua disaster that was minetest 5.3¿ 21:14 erlehmann ? 21:14 specing there's no need to hold Minetest back because of this 21:14 MTDiscord browsers have the same issue, yet everybody is fine with executing random JS 21:14 MTDiscord why should Lua be any different? 21:14 erlehmann luatic the problem is once you go there you can not go back 21:14 erlehmann because it is easier for content *creators* to use the more powerful interface 21:14 erlehmann but the content is more often consumed than created 21:15 erlehmann > users vote by choosing servers that do not lag their clients or disabling CSM 21:15 erlehmann hahaha 21:15 erlehmann the problem is that if you allow to disable CSM then it will just be like javascript 21:15 erlehmann “this server does not work without CSM” 21:15 erlehmann > if we manage to properly secure our Lua environment, of course 21:15 specing "users vote by choosing websites that do not lag their browsers" 21:15 erlehmann what i am saying is that this is impossible 21:15 MTDiscord And that is plain wrong 21:16 erlehmann luatic have you read the paper? 21:16 Pexin >everybody is fine with executing random JS 21:16 erlehmann it is possible by the way to have random code be secure. it just needs to be properly limited. lua does not fulfil the criteria. 21:16 Pexin I'm not -_- 21:16 MTDiscord I know Lua 5.1 in and out by now. A secure implementation is very much possible. 21:16 specing not everybody, but the vast majority 21:17 erlehmann oh i guess everyone is ok with climate change as well 21:17 MTDiscord hey, at least I can now populate the russian plains 21:17 Pexin the vast majority of end users have no idea what javascript means 21:18 erlehmann look these arguments by popularity do not make sense against fundamental laws of nature (like the halting problem, which i only used because denying its relevance exposes the denier's understanding or lack thereof regarding programming issues) 21:18 specing erlehmann: the vast majority doesen't care 21:18 erlehmann specing “vote”, “choosing”. where to order specific food or electronic parts if the only website uses js 21:18 erlehmann untli it hits them 21:18 erlehmann and then you can not go back 21:18 sfan5 erlehmann: no idea what you're referring to 21:18 specing erlehmann: your garden doesen't require js 21:19 erlehmann sfan5 oh i thought you knew. let's say i think no one should run a minetest 5.3 server probably. 21:19 erlehmann or any earlier version 21:19 erlehmann after all, minetest 5.4 removed support for client-sent server-side mods? 21:20 erlehmann or was that an accident and will be re-enabled in minetest 5.5 again? 21:20 sfan5 ??? 21:20 erlehmann well if you are okay with executing random code i think you should enable it again 21:20 Pexin ? there used to be client-sent server-executed code? 21:21 sfan5 if you have arguments that are not dishonest talk to me again, I have better things to do 21:21 erlehmann ok 21:21 independent56 Do admins get nostalgia from older parts of the map? Like, if they built a city and abandoned it, would they feel nostalgia visiting it again? 21:22 independent56 Furthermore, would they avoid going there as not to corrupt the nostalgia with new memories? 21:22 Pexin independent56: all admins or a subset of admins? 21:22 Pexin in that question, shall ye find the answer 21:22 independent56 Admins who own a minetest server 21:23 independent56 Onewhich has been running for several years 21:23 independent56 I certanly get nostalgia from old worlds 21:26 erlehmann Pexin to my knowledge, yes. but since sfan5 does not know about it, it seemed to have been a feature that got little attention and i think it may have been broken accidentally, rather than on purpose? 21:27 erlehmann i mean you can kinda fake it 21:27 erlehmann with lua controller and stuff 21:27 specing client-sent server-side mods? 21:27 specing Wow, sounds awesome :D 21:27 specing When can we have it? 21:27 erlehmann but they can't do much 21:27 erlehmann i think with a lua controller i can only crash the server 21:28 erlehmann which is not very useful 21:28 erlehmann and honestly, ppl who use lua controllers “seem to be largely okay” with randos being able to crash their servers 21:28 independent56 but rn, my nostalgia feeling is dead and i can't feelthe pang of old times calling for me. 21:29 erlehmann When can we have it? 21:29 erlehmann specing, make a PR 21:29 erlehmann but anyone who thinks sending lua mods to the client can surely use the same sandbox on the server 21:29 erlehmann just make it the same setting 21:29 independent56 erlehmann, If that happened, i would deleteblocks the area of the luacontroller. To crash the server is to crash your home 21:29 erlehmann like either SSCSMs and CSCSMs are both on or both off 21:30 erlehmann that way you can truly get a vote on if executing random code is desirable (for whatever reason) 21:30 erlehmann if i find a new way for client-sent CSMs in the existing code i will let you know 21:30 erlehmann i am pretty sure there is one, but i have not gotten it to work 21:31 specing haxxxorz 21:31 erlehmann i.e. it only crashes the server 21:31 erlehmann i meant of course 21:31 erlehmann if i find a new way for client-sent SSMs in the existing code i will let you know 21:31 erlehmann but client-to-client CSMs would be funny as well! 21:35 erlehmann Pexin if you have a minetest 5.3 server, upgrade it. 21:35 erlehmann that's all i am saying 21:36 erlehmann and i think no core dev would say that is bad advice 21:37 erlehmann regarding the democracy analogy, the vast majority of server owners have opted to install some widely used mods that allow players to dupe items and crash servers. they are okay with it! 21:37 erlehmann (dupes are somewhat rare compared to crashes though) 21:39 erlehmann is anyone here who got chess items from “chezzz” on catlandia? 21:39 erlehmann that was me btw 21:39 erlehmann i hope you keep good care of them 21:39 erlehmann i must say it is a funny idea to make an 8x8 inventory and disguise it as a chessboard using checkerboard background 21:40 erlehmann and put chess figurines in it 21:40 erlehmann i mean in real life you can take the playing pieces from the chess board too! 21:40 erlehmann or play chess with lumps of clay or leaves instead 21:40 erlehmann so it only adds to the realism 21:42 erlehmann if the funny person is here who managed to get the fluid that the mimic mob spews as an item, please tell me in a query 21:42 erlehmann it might be possible to refine it into a more general fluid or falling block exploit 21:44 specing cool erlehmann 21:45 specing erlehmann: I could reliably crash BlS by having just the right error in just the right place in my CSMs 21:45 specing so I'd crash, and the server would crash with me 21:46 erlehmann specing, BIS? 21:46 specing blocky survival 21:47 erlehmann specing, could be that they did not check if a player is online, like the recent mineclonia bugfix 21:47 erlehmann you *always* have to check 21:47 erlehmann i learned it from the rubenwardy book 21:47 specing it must have been something like that 21:47 specing some race condition 21:47 erlehmann well notify the devs then 21:48 erlehmann this stuff usually requires frame-accurate client crashes to get a server crash out of it 21:48 specing I did, they couldn't find it 21:48 erlehmann frame as in globalstep 21:49 erlehmann ah damn 21:49 erlehmann specing wanna test this gem? https://git.minetest.land/Mineclonia/mcl_meshnode/pulls/10 21:50 erlehmann mineclone2/mineclonia/mineclone5 should have meshnode too 21:50 erlehmann and cora and me are going to make it work, eventually 21:52 specing Not now, I got addicted to another gmae 21:53 erlehmann which one 21:55 specing erlehmann: Hideous Destructor https://codeberg.org/mc776/hideousdestructor 22:46 Sven_vB erlehmann, thanks for the LangSec papers. very good reads. 22:49 Sven_vB the practical approach for people who want a popular game though, is to hope enough sandboxing can minimize the impact of doing stuff wrong. 22:49 Sven_vB fortunately MT doesn't need to be that kind of "popular" 22:53 erlehmann Sven_vB not only for popular games. browsers, other stuff too. 22:53 erlehmann it is just the easiest solution 22:54 erlehmann and people think they can solve the rest of the problem on the way there 22:54 Sven_vB I'd call it the least impossible non-solution 22:54 erlehmann lol yes 22:55 erlehmann in the end, saying that sandboxing code like that works is like saying your free energy device is giving back 98% of the energy you put in to run it, you only need a few percent to make it go positive! 22:55 erlehmann like yeah, that is true 22:55 erlehmann but you won't get the few percent, ever 22:56 erlehmann Sven_vB what do you think of my idea to put client-sent server mods and server-sent client mods behind the same flag? 22:56 erlehmann after all, if someone *really* thinks lua is secure that should ork 22:56 erlehmann work 22:56 erlehmann and we do have precedent, lua pipes and lua controller 22:56 erlehmann (both which are a security and crashycrashy nightmare for admins) 22:59 Sven_vB on totally another note, I have problems collecting items from the ground, because aiming at them precisely takes me much time. it's made worse by my favorite server lagging horribly at times, so I don't even get good feedback when I try to just spamclick an area. is there any way (without CSM :D) to make my client help me collect them? most time there's only one item on the block surface, so it should be easy to guess which one I meant. 23:00 Sven_vB erlehmann, I haven't yet read enough log to have an opinion about those flags. 23:04 Pexin Sven_vB: modify vacuum mod so it has infinite uses, and convince admin to install it? 23:05 Sven_vB I wish my search engine could find a text version that doesn't split words and marks paragraphs by some other way than just geometry. starting at page 4 it's almost unreadable for my text-to-speech. 23:05 * Pexin ponders extra keybindings.. 23:05 Sven_vB (of the langsec cwes paper) 23:06 Sven_vB Pexin, already tried to convince the admin. we couldn't agree on the conditions. 23:08 Sven_vB guess I'll put the langsec papers on the "read later" stash for when I had time to find good OCR software. 23:33 Sven_vB erlehmann, now I read the idea about using the same flag, and I disagree. each participant should be empowered to configure how many resources (CPU, RAM, ???) they want to offer to other participants. 23:34 Sven_vB we can then make MT a distributed computing platform, and maybe even add a block chain. 23:47 erlehmann lol 23:47 erlehmann Sven_vB oh i do expect people who say that client-sent server side mods are a bad idea bc executing arbitrary code etc. – but then they should also say that server-sent client-side mods are a bad idea bc executing arbitrary code. 23:48 erlehmann like either it is entirely safe and won't lag anything or it is not 23:48 erlehmann there is not really a *choice* if there is no valid alternative 23:48 erlehmann up until minetest 5.4 you basically *had* to run with the option of client-sent server-side mods 23:49 erlehmann “option” 23:49 erlehmann ;) 23:49 erlehmann > is there any way (without CSM :D) to make my client help me collect them 23:49 erlehmann cora has written a csm to collect items on laggy servers 23:50 erlehmann jordan4ibanez a.k.a. oilboi has written code for better item pickup on laggy servers, which is probably in his crafter mod 23:50 erlehmann sadly neither cora nor me could make sense of it 23:51 erlehmann Sven_vB regarding langsec, you can probably email meredith patterson and ask her if she has some other format? sorry :/