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IRC log for #minetest, 2021-07-07

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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02:36 sofar hmmm, I used to have nodes with `alpha = 160,` but that is now obsolete... what do I replace this with?
02:37 sofar specifically they were water nodes
02:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> texture modifiers as far as I've seen.  I considered a hack to do it automatically but some of my stuff was too complex for it to work well.
02:57 sofar *whatever*
02:57 sofar the textures seem to have proper alpha in them
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07:11 independent56 Wow... people from equador, egypt, texas, ans the USA are all scaning me... i'm flattered
07:14 independent56 I must be on some sort of database of servers now
07:19 independent56 I'm just wondering, should i send reports of these guys to the government?
07:24 MTDiscord <FBI> yes
07:24 MTDiscord <FBI> thou shall
07:25 independent56 XD
07:25 independent56 gtg school.
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10:58 MTDiscord <appguru> independent56: some are probably crawlers of legit search engines and the like, others are probably scanners looking to break into yet another WordPress instance, and a few are surely lurkers like me
11:06 BuckarooBanzai yeah, thats the "usual" background traffic when you expose something to the internet ;)
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14:31 allesha hello all
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14:47 independent56 well... i dont think a web crawler would "rm -rf thinkphp"
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14:49 lusy-grey come to irc freenode chat <== new network for only chat.
14:49 lusy-grey Come fast register your channel, first come, first serve basis.
14:50 rubenwardy independent56: web crawlers don't need to be legit
14:50 rubenwardy a web crawler is just a bot that follows links to discover pages. Legit web crawlers use that data for searching and indexing, but malicious web crawlers could look for vulnerabilities
14:50 independent56 Hmm... Well, how would it find my site? where have i put links to my website?
14:51 rubenwardy it may be enumerating IP addresses
14:51 independent56 Oh... yeah, i was thinking of "legit" ones.
14:54 independent56 And "people from equador", i mean all thos vulnrability scans. It breaks article 1 of the computer misue act - something about seeking unatuthorised access to a computer.
14:55 specing good luck finding the perpetrator
14:56 independent56 i wont. the IP is all the government needs to start their investigation
14:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Don't expect "article 1 of the computer misuse act" to apply to them either.  You have no idea where you'll actually find the people responsible, but there's a good chance that laws we take for granted don't apply there.
14:57 MTDiscord <Jordach> this
14:57 MTDiscord <Jordach> best you'll get is a criminal reference number from the rozzers
14:57 specing Nah, the laws of the land where the crime was perpetrated apply
14:57 independent56 hmm. yeah, i know from the IP address that they aren't from the UK
14:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> No you don't
14:57 MTDiscord <Jordach> second, the misuse act only applies to british citizens in british territories
14:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> you only know the IP address of the computer that scanned you
14:58 independent56 oh yeah
14:58 independent56 could be a vpn/vps 0_0
14:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The person responsible for the scan (if they'r even aware of it) could be anywhere on earth
14:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Or technically not on earth, though we assume there aren't any hackers on the ISS right now.
14:58 sfan5 (or not on earth)
14:58 sfan5 there's definitely hackers on the ISS
14:58 sfan5 but not in the popular sense of the word
14:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Heh, well, I assume they probably have better things to do with their time than run a botnet
14:59 MTDiscord <Warr1024> though so much of that is fire-and-forget at this point with automatic vulnerability scans, they very well could have just left their botnet to largely run itself while on a space mission...
15:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If you got scanned by an IP address in Ecuador there's like a 90% chance that it's someone's home router or a printer/fax machine in some office, that has its management interfaces exposed to the internet and they never changed the default password.
15:03 independent56 oh yeah... maybe it's to much bother then it's worth to reprot to the government.
15:04 MTDiscord <Jordach> if you're that paranoid - don't host at all
15:04 independent56 haha
15:05 MTDiscord <Jordach> i live with an actual red team pentester
15:05 MTDiscord <Jordach> he could probably dumpster your machines in about an hour
15:05 MTDiscord <Jordach> wu tang LAN ain't nothing to mess with
15:06 independent56 haha... oh god
15:15 independent56 correction:  <Jordach> if you're that paranoid - make sure you backup very often.
15:18 Pexin what I want to know is, could they be scanning for vulnerabilities    FROM THE FUTURE
15:18 Pexin temporal internet when
15:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> What are you talking about?  This IS the future, has been for years.
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15:26 * Pexin changes PC's internal clock
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16:00 VanessaE To the person who just tried to DDoS my server, FUCK YOU.  That is all.
16:01 VanessaE (I mention it here since it's more likely to be a disgruntled player than nayone else :P )
16:01 VanessaE any*
16:01 specing Maybe it was independent56
16:01 VanessaE doubt it.
16:01 independent56 i have my own worries.
16:01 specing VanessaE: stop scanning him and he'll stop DDoSing you. :P
16:01 independent56 i had a 503 error, and ended up worrying about a remote wipe of my system, at school.
16:01 VanessaE heh
16:02 independent56 Explain more about the incident... how did you react?
16:02 independent56 here follows a quote from my document abotu the 503  - "Hello… and I am slightly concerned about my work. If someone managed to exploit a vulnerability, do rm -r /home, then they would have destroyed  all of my backups. I hope they didn’t touch anything. I hope nobody has accessed my server."
16:02 independent56 which is why im scp-ing my backups to my main.
16:09 MTDiscord <Warr1024> 99% of the HTTP 503 errors I see are when an application is being restarted (often for maintenance or updates).  Kubernetes for example returns 503's if the pods backing an ingress are being recycled.  Other systems may return a 502 or a 504 for similar situations.
16:11 independent56 i use XAMPP, and it was working perfectly.
16:11 independent56 and the error was for hours.
16:12 independent56 But i am restarting XAMPP jut to be sure
16:12 Ingar stop worrying about getting scanned, get worried of you don't get scanned
16:12 MTDiscord <Warr1024> As someone who sometimes has to do maintenance on web apps, I can confirm that the maintenance sometimes lasts for hours too and they're certainly as frustrated about that as you are :-D
16:18 VanessaE wait, you maintain web apps from time to time... and you're still sane? :P
16:19 independent56 I have to maintain my server. the only thing which stops me from going insane is a froced break called "school".
16:19 Pexin you.. don't really have to maintain your server..
16:19 independent56 i can't not. if i don't then broken services will be broken forever
16:19 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I'll never understand the logic of "I screwed up and got banned, therefore I'm going to waste money making sure I REALLY can't there play again."
16:21 independent56 I mean my webserver, not the mtserver
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16:23 VanessaE Benrob0329 well yo be fair I'm only guessing, since the only people I ever seem to piss off are MT players now and then.  Could just as easily be random, like "war-dialing" for a target IP.
16:23 VanessaE to*
16:25 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> "I'm going to temporarily piss someone off in a way that inherently can't benefit me at all"
16:25 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Nope, still doesn't make sense
16:25 VanessaE whatever the reason, it only lasted for 15 mins
16:25 Pexin humens - making sense since never
16:27 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> So not only did they try to piss you off, they also couldn't be arsed to put in the money to make it actually inconvenient for any length of time.
16:27 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I don't know if that makes them more or less terrible
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16:28 VanessaE haha
16:30 independent56 Pexin,  exactly. this is why i have ascended the huan race and become cybor
16:30 independent56 *cyborg
16:30 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I suppose I feel the same way about trolls, don't do it, but if you do at least make it worth my time.
16:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> VE: Yes I do maintain web apps, and when did I ever claim to be sane?
16:32 VanessaE haha
16:33 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Maybe its a terrible outlook to have, but I'd rather someone (for e.g.) fill my logs with Lenny faces rather than plain old access violations, because at least I'd get a good laugh out of it.
16:35 VanessaE lol
16:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm actually a little surprised to hear that VE even bats an eye about a DoS attack.  I figured that running a bunch of large servers and having had to do moderation stuff, you'd come under retaliatory or even random attacks pretty often.
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16:35 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I suppose the whole point of DDoSing is to waste my time though, but that's hard to do when I'd actually be wasting my time messing with the server so they've just shut down my procrastination.
16:35 VanessaE Ben, well if THAT ever happens you can blame Jordach since he favors that face :)
16:36 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Heh
16:36 VanessaE Warr: oh, I do get attacked every once in a while, but it's rare enough that it usually surprises me a little
16:36 independent56 If someone was ever to DDoS me, i would live through it. nobody relies on my server. it can go on for weeks, and iwont pay a ransom.
16:37 VanessaE that's why I pay for a good host with good DDoS-mitigation
16:38 VanessaE if they hadn't emailed me, I wouldn't have known anything unusual was happening :)
16:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> One of the drawbacks of being old enough is that when people talk about DDoS attacks it makes it sound like they're stuttering about old pre-graphical operating systems.
16:39 Ingar @Warr1024 DOS had graphics!
16:39 VanessaE heh
16:40 MTDiscord <Warr1024> DOS did not, but it could run software that did.  There's a fine distinction...
16:40 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I'm assuming they try to DDoS the web server specifically? Since (to my knowledge) the turnkey solutions probably wouldn't target MT
16:40 Ingar The later dos versions actually had a graphical filemanager (forgot the name) DOS 6 I think
16:40 Ingar or maybe in 5 already
16:40 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Ah could be...
16:40 MTDiscord <Jordach> You fockin wot VE
16:40 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I suspect that turnkey DDoS tools could target MT if it's just a matter of picking a UDP port though.
16:40 VanessaE Ben:  dunno, my host's email didn't specify.  just that my server's IP was targeted.
16:41 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I suppose I should go educate myself on the matter, but I haven't the time right now
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16:41 VanessaE Jordach: a joke :P
16:43 MTDiscord <Jordach> I haven’t used a lenny in years
16:43 MTDiscord <Jordach> 🤡
16:43 VanessaE like I pay attention to that anyway :)
16:43 MTDiscord <Jordach> To be fair people are too uptight these days for a Lenny
16:45 independent56 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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16:49 VanessaE looks like they're trying to attack my host now :P
16:50 VanessaE (host's own status pages are slow to respond)
16:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Arguably the best thing to do is just pretend you don't notice it, since they might just be trying to get a reaction out of you.
16:54 VanessaE heh
16:54 VanessaE all the reaction they'll get out of me is a laugh :)
16:55 VanessaE (the aforementioned "fuck you" was more like "you failed, so fuck you" :) )
16:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Well, you DID notice.
16:56 independent56 well, to all those who are scanning the web and trying to exploit thinkphp? fuck you. go buy your own hardware!
16:56 VanessaE Warr:  only because my host emailed me :)
16:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha, there's a bit of a difference there, since the exploit hunters are looking for hosts to add to a botnet, while VE's attacker is probably just seeking attention.
16:57 VanessaE the irony of that is how do you get attention if the world doesn't know it was you who did whatever it is :)
16:57 independent56 i want to make my own botnet, with my own computers.
16:57 VanessaE independent56: with blackjack and hookers?
16:57 VanessaE :P
16:57 independent56 Probably will have two - my main and my webserver, as they are the most accessible
16:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Attention-seeking behavior like attacking somebody's server is not strongly associated with that level of rational thought to begin with.
16:58 VanessaE good point
16:58 VanessaE whoever the attention-seeker is, if he's reading this: consider yourself disregarded and summarily ignored :)
16:59 independent56 most recent scan was 16:13 BST
17:00 independent56 (actually server time, which is a minute or so out of sync with real time.)
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17:01 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha, I don't even remember how many years it's been since I paid attention to logs of people trying to brute-force my SSH port.  Probably hundreds of thousands of attempts by now.
17:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> For a while I tried a process of tempbanning them for a while if they had a certain number of failures, but what I ended up doing instead if just rejecting 95% of all incoming SSH connections across the board.
17:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Scanners often see that and think my port is closed, or maybe get like 1 or 2 attempts in first.  If I want to access it though I just have to keep retrying until I roll a natural 20.
17:03 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Its funny and terrifying to see SSH brute-force bots trying passwords like "minecraftserver"
17:03 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Systems that don't rely on trying to identify and track reputation of clients can't then be turned around to act as DoS vulnerabilities, e.g. by spoofing a source IP to get legit users tempbanned.
17:03 independent56 haha
17:04 VanessaE Warr: fail2ban doesn't work for you?
17:04 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I'd love to just greylist all incoming requests from new IPs
17:05 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It might but I don't want to bother setting it up.
17:05 VanessaE heh ok
17:05 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also if my server comes under attack by someone who's at the same coffee shop that I am, they could buy themselves some time by just lightly brute-force-attacking it to block my own access to it so I can't respond.
17:05 MTDiscord <MNH48> does that kind of bruteforce work on SSH that don't use password? like mine uses ssh-ed25519 key to get on SSH
17:06 MTDiscord <Warr1024> As long as I use a system that treats all 3rd parties as equally untrusted then there's nothing for them to exploit to change the trust level of any other party, either higher OR lower.
17:06 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If you can memorize an entire ed25519 key then that's impressive, but so far passwords are the only credentials I've found that don't require some kind of device to store them on.
17:07 MTDiscord <Warr1024> My brain is harder to compromise than most devices, and I rarely misplace it.
17:08 VanessaE mine gets left in bed almost every morning.
17:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Try wearing earplugs to bed to keep it from sneaking out.
17:08 VanessaE though to be fair, that isn't "misplaced", that's just DISplaced :)
17:08 VanessaE lol
17:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've got multiple 128-bit passwords memorized so I should be able to actually memorize an ed25519 key, with proper encoding, I guess...
17:11 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> At the end of the day if you keep your keys out of your computer nobody can steal them without physical access, which is usually fairly easy to deter with e.g. a dog.
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17:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Its scary how comfortable we're gotten storing stuff in random places on the internet
17:12 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah, nobody is gonna steal a laptop with a power adapter that a dog's been chewing on.
17:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Exactly!
17:13 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Hmm, I wonder I could mar up a phone case to make it look less appealing to thieves
17:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> In theory airgaps are perfect security while cryptography is only mostly secure.  In practice, people generally don't break crypto, but they find all kinds of loopholes in physical access control.  You're better off just using decent encryption on a cloud backup than storing your important crap in a shoebox full of USB drives.
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17:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I feel like there must be a name for that as an art form: making things look fake-antique or beat up as a theft deterrent.  I heard about a guy who has had his car broken into multiple times to steal his camera equipment, but then was able to leave thousands of dollars worth of high-end professional photography equipment sitting on a park bench undisturbed thanks to strategic use of duct tape.
17:16 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I "decorated" my work macbook so that can take it into libraries and coffee shops without any worry.  I put down a layer of blue painter's tape first to protect the finish, then add duct tape over top of that, and the tape tends to get scuffed on its own just from packing, unpacking, and handling the thing.
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17:19 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> What's safer, leaving stuff in the tank people are definitely going to go check out while no one is around, or the 1999 Oldsmobile that's had it's hood and bumper attached with duct tape and a prayer?
17:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha, talking about a '99 oldsmobile like it's old ... I still kinda miss my '97 lumina.
17:24 Hawk777 “In theory airgaps are perfect security” except for the part where, to use your password/key/etc., you eventually have to type it into a computer connected to the Internet. You can’t make SSH secure when the computer on which the client is running is compromised. Store the key on a USB stick? OK, after breaking into your computer, the attacker will just leave a trojan behind that waits until you plug in the USB stick and then
17:24 Hawk777 als the key. Store the key on a separate computer and do SSH agent authentication instead, so the key never appears on the Internet-connected computer? The attacker will just leave a trojan behind that waits until you actually have an SSH session open, and then sends fake keyboard input into it to install a remote access trojan on the SSH server and then clear the screen really quickly. Use a password instead so nobody can steal th
17:24 Hawk777 y? Keylogger defeats you. If the SSH client machine is broken, you’ve pretty much lost hope.
17:28 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah, you're getting into a lot of the ways that physical security is impossible, like evil maid and cold boot attacks and such.
17:28 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's why when people talk about locking servers up in cages and posting armed guards, I remind them that that's still no substitute for e.g. full disk encryption.
17:29 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Even FDE only protects you from threats in one direction, i.e. people walking off with the disk.  If they tamper with it but leave in in place ... that's a lot harder to protect against.
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17:31 Hawk777 I actually meant the exact opposite—an airgap is useless if the SSH client computer is broken into *from the internet*, even if your physical security is useless.
17:32 Hawk777 Though it’s true that poor physical security can also cause the same problems.
17:32 Hawk777 Sorry, in my first message there, I meant even if your physical security is *perfect*, not useless.
17:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> When I'm talking about airgaps I'm talking about being not connected to the internet.  At least, not directly.  Everything that's connected to a human is connected to a part of the internet, after all.
17:35 Hawk777 Ah, if you consider information passing through a human to not be airgapped, then sure. Airgaps are secure, but also mostly useless.
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17:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The ambiguity in how you define a proper airgap is itself a big part of the problem with them.
17:36 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I still want to have homelab servers with no SSH access that I just manage from a local terminal
17:37 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Because while sure, someone could break in and do stuff, at that point my biggest concern is probably not the server
17:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Heh, I'm sort of the opposite.  I would rather have everything be "cloud," I just want it to be cloud that I have control over instead of relying on some third party.  This is why I do stuff like use dynamic DNS and run SSH/web servers on my home systems, and why I was annoyed that they just killed HPKP, even if the security model for it was mostly crappy to begin wtih...
17:38 independent56 My biggest concern when someone breaks in is my computer, and the fact it has all my files. Bakup keeps on breaking down.
17:38 MTDiscord <Warr1024> My backup coverage is spotty, but the fact that I have my data in like 5 different tiers that all call for different levels of backup doesn't help. :-/
17:39 Hawk777 While this would be location-dependent, personally I am less concerned with someone stealing my computer and more concerned with parts of it breaking. That’s why I always make time for backups.
17:39 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I have backups mostly to protect against my own screw ups, as well as ransomware
17:40 Pexin Warr1024: re graphics running on dos: remembering when "windows" was not (or only ambiguously) an "operating system"
17:40 independent56 I keep backups because i am a human, and i have had human error kill me multiple times.
17:40 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> protection against the latter being a happy accident of protection against the former
17:41 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I have been successfully maliciously attacked by an outsider zero times so far since my switch to unix-likes, and only once on Windows.   I have however self-owned multiple times, including 2 separate "rm -rf /$TEMPDIR" when it should have been "TMPDIR" incidents.
17:41 rubenwardy if you're trying to protect against ransomware, make sure the backups aren't on the same network
17:41 MTDiscord <Warr1024> A malicious attack is also just a form of human error, it's just an error in the moral processing of another human.
17:42 MTDiscord <Warr1024> (Hanlon's Razor Extreme Edition)
17:42 independent56 Haha, i backup onto an old SSD. it stays offline literally 99% of the time
17:43 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> My PC backups are just my important files to a mostly powered-down external HDD
17:43 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I do something like that too, but I've never been quite as comfortable as I was back when I used to use non-rewritable optical media.  It's hard to erase them, either accidentally or maliciously, given only software access.
17:43 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Anything I intend to share goes on a Git host anyways, so thats already taken care of
17:44 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The problem with the "usually offline" approach is that if someone does want to mess with you, there's no reason why they would need to fire off the payload as soon as they get a toehold; they can just sit around for months and make sure they get a chance to infect your backups too.
17:44 Pexin I was always uncomfortable with how physically fragile optical media
17:44 MTDiscord <Warr1024> git is a nice backup strategy.  Making your projects public and open source helps out a lot too, since anyone else who becomes interested can also help back you up.
17:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Optical media is fragile but not a ton more fragile than hard disks or SSDs really.  All of them have care requirements and none are all that exotic.
17:46 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I can't get any 3TB discs though (is it disk or disc for optical media?)
17:47 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If you really want data to survive a disaster the single most useful strategy is probably diversity.  Diversity of medium, of location, of storage method and timing, etc.
17:47 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> punch cards
17:47 independent56 i wish git wouldnt bloat my main disk so much if i used it for backup in my home directory
17:47 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> shallow cloning is a thing
17:48 MTDiscord <appguru> I would absolutely not backup to SSDss
17:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> git isn't really a good enough tool for general purpose backup to use it indiscriminantly.
17:48 appguru SSDs*
17:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Why
17:48 appguru Well, backups often involve lots of rewrites. A HDD doesn't care, SSDs have limited TBW.
17:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've been using HDDs and I've been thinking SSDs might actually be better, since they handle mechanical and thermal shock much better than HDDs.
17:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also the rewrite thing is exactly backwards
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17:49 independent56 I wish i had more bakcup types, but i only have "hdd" and "ssd". But i have property in gwynedd, so i can use that to be offsite backup. i also have a location in egland, at myhome.
17:49 Pexin isn't flash storage essentially nano-punchcards?
17:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> that's an excellent reason to use an SSD, because if your SSD can survive being used in a live system, then t definitely has the rewrite capacity to handle periodic backups.
17:49 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> ^
17:50 appguru if your system supports delta backups, SSDs are probably fine - but if you backup by just copying everything periodically, I wouldn't want that to wear down a SSD
17:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> SSD rewrite limits are mostly FUD.  From what I've seen the various failure modes for mechanical disks will generally kill you long before SSD rewrites start to threaten.
17:51 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Backups are generally an append-only process though.
17:51 MTDiscord <Warr1024> So each bit of the disk is gonna get written basically once, aside from metadata.
17:51 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I use borg for deduping and backup every month to several months.  When that disk gets full I buy a new one and "archive" the old one in a safe.
17:52 appguru independent56: What software does the backups for you
17:52 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Deduplication is pretty much a superset of the value you get from incrementals.
17:52 appguru I use what ships with Ubuntu, deja-dup
17:53 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I've been running my root partition off of an NVME drive more-or-less since I built my PC, and I'm pretty sure my hard drive is gonna fail before the SSD considering that it's the only thing to have giving me any inklings of wear
17:53 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> *given
17:53 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also you definitely don't want backups that keep only the latest version of everything, or else there are risks to backing up too often, and you will create the wrong incentives.
17:53 appguru Which is another reason to use HDDs: They have more space
17:53 appguru Or at least, cheaper space
17:53 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I use HDDs myself for backup.
17:54 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> The SSD <-> HDD space gap is lessening with time for common use cases
17:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> SSDs may be tougher, but I coddle my backup drives anyway, and I don't need the speed because USB is a bottleneck anyway.
17:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I do expect SSDs to overtake HDDs within a few years, and I'll probably switch once the price is right.
17:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I certainly won't avoid SSDs, anyway.
17:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The only failure mode I've observed from SSDs so far that weren't factory-defective from the outset is obsolesecence.
17:55 celeron55_ SSDs could be a bad idea for backups that need to last for tens of years untouche
17:55 celeron55_ +d
17:55 MTDiscord <appguru> I wonder whether it would be reasonable for the MTDiscord relay to change it's nickname
17:55 celeron55_ HDDs retain their content better when sitting on a shelf for decades
17:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Hmm, yeah, you need to leave SSDs powered on for a significant amount of time at least every year or so.
17:56 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Heh, if I can keep coasting on my current storage solution long enough SSDs might become the cheaper option
17:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> SSDs gradually discharge and need to internally self-refresh.
17:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> They're still new enough in the field of backups that it's easy to forget their quirks.
17:57 MTDiscord <appguru> I assume you can't get your TBW back by waiting for your SSD to lose all data?
17:57 celeron55_ i recall some place said it could be a bad idea to rely on an unpowered SSD to retain its data for even just 5 years
17:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It wasn't too long ago though that the same shit we're arguing about SSD vs HDD people were arguing about HDD vs tape.
17:57 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I wonder if there are any cheap ROM usb drives for backup
17:58 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> tape is still used for cold storage, apparently
17:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If your SSD's cells self-discharge enough then I'd bet you end up with a brick.  They'd probably lose the firmware too.
17:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> c55 actually the worst I heard was only 2 years :-)
17:58 celeron55_ surely SSDs have a separate flash for firmware?
17:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha, "surely"
17:58 celeron55_ i guess it would be cheaper to not have one
17:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean "obviously" no manufacturer would cheap out that bad. 😏
18:00 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Oh no, they'd never do that
18:00 celeron55_ i'm currently doing backups before a trip that i'll take my laptop with me, and i'm simply copying stuff onto a usb hard disk
18:00 celeron55_ this method has never failed me
18:01 independent56 MicroSD is a horrible backup solution. you spend hours making a backup then "fuck where is it?"
18:02 celeron55_ well just put it on your keychain, encrypted of course
18:02 celeron55_ you can probably 3d print a tiny holder for it
18:02 independent56 celeron55_ i  once had all my pre-2020 documents dissapear after i had it on one drive that i reformatted by accident. but they were all cringe.
18:02 independent56 "probably" assues that i have a 3d printer.
18:02 celeron55_ independent56: "had it on one drive" doesn't sound like backups
18:02 celeron55_ a backup is something that's on a second drive
18:03 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> (doubling back because I had a though) But hey, on the bright side with crime slowly moving towards being tech-based maybe we can rely more on physical security and just limit network access because it'll become the less popular course of action
18:03 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Due note however that most physical security is just as bad as most cyber security
18:04 celeron55_ security by obscurity works fairly well for personal things
18:04 celeron55_ just don't use the same obscurity others do
18:04 independent56 What's funny is i have a huge, heavy HDD of 300 gb, and then the tiny ones have 500 gb. Of course i will use the smaller ones!
18:05 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> c55: Well, at least here in the US most popular lock manufacturers are terrible (ignoring the potential for "loud" entree methods)
18:07 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Because while sure, locks are meant to stop easy access, if your lock can be raked open by someone with little experience then it's not much of a deterrent
18:08 celeron55_ yeah i've heard US locks are jokes
18:08 Ingar but, who can access your precious data if you're uncounscious
18:08 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> It's all in your head, Ingar, it's all in your head
18:09 Ingar well, the widow of my dead friend never knew how much the bitcoins on his encrypted drive were worth
18:09 Ingar (real story)
18:09 appguru Robbing an encrypted drive is probably pretty dumb
18:10 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> unless the drive itself is expensive /s
18:10 celeron55_ robbing an encrypted drive is more polite than robbing an unencrypted drive
18:10 Ingar I do use encrypted volumes for data transports at work though
18:10 celeron55_ at least you're not stealing the data 8)
18:10 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> My laptop used to be encrypted, if I ever take it anywhere I'll need to set that back up
18:11 Ingar celeron55_: I might be into funy business :p
18:11 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> There hasn't been a need though, because..y'know
18:11 rubenwardy the problem with cyber security over physically security is that you don't need to be physical present, or even in the same country
18:11 appguru What if Ingar is a secret agent /s
18:11 rubenwardy you being the attacker
18:11 rubenwardy so you can go somewhere with no extradiction and cause lots of issues
18:11 Ingar I'm in your PC, logging your IRC and securely transporting it
18:11 MTDiscord <Warr1024> A physical lock is not a device to protect your stuff from thieves, it's a device to protect your neighbors from becoming thieves.  How honest people are depends a lot on their circumstances, so the courteous thing to do is not to place your neighbors in more challenging circumstances.
18:12 rubenwardy plus insurance
18:12 appguru Pro tip: Just be poor and don't have any valuables in your house.
18:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Decoy safes are an option too
18:12 Ingar it's also a legal thing
18:12 independent56 pro tip: copy all yoru valubles to a backup hose, in case of bugarlies
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18:12 Ingar breaking a lock to get to something proves intention
18:13 appguru indeed
18:13 appguru i56: that is pretty engrish
18:13 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> It also isn't "silent entree" and is less desirable most of the time afaik
18:13 independent56 sorry, i pertend i am brish, but i am acctuall chienes
18:13 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Not everyone cares of course
18:14 appguru all right, tell me more about those "bugarlies"
18:14 appguru bug-arlies, bugar-lies, bulgaries?
18:14 independent56 burglas enter home > take valublees > go to police
18:14 Hawk777 It’s when someone tells you there’s a burger available but there really isn’t.
18:14 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> At the end of the day, the best way to not get burgled is to look less valuable than the guy next to you.
18:15 rubenwardy or more secure
18:15 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> also that
18:16 Ingar it's like when running from a bear, I only need to be faster than you
18:16 appguru If I'm a rich burglar with 10k worth of stolen items, and you have 5k I can steal, why should I not do it?
18:16 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> heh, I've just thought about putting expensive gaming rigs in crappy 1999-esque cases so that they look like old trash to your average person
18:17 appguru Just fill it up with sandbags
18:17 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> lead cases
18:18 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> or buy cheap hardware and encase it in cement, if it breaks just replace it :P
18:18 independent56 I just get insurance - my hardware is nothing compared to the importance of my files.
18:20 independent56 *would if i was an adult
18:20 appguru Good luck proving the importance of your files to an insurance.
18:20 appguru Especially after they are gone.
18:21 independent56 I mean, that's the use of offsite backup
18:22 appguru Yes. Did I understand you wrong and you meant getting insurance for the hardware?
18:22 independent56 yes
18:23 appguru That's not worth the hassle IMO. Even if you had hardware in the 1k range, it wouldn't be worth the hassle of dealing with the insurance, or paying the insurance fees.
18:23 independent56 but im not an adult™ so i guess it might not exist, and could be a too much cost.
18:23 appguru I'm not an adult either, but there are few cases in which I see insurance as necessary
18:24 appguru Mainly to protect against worst-case-scenarios, which could quickly financially ruin you. Like scratching a Maserati (hence car insurance).
18:24 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> suddenly feels old
18:25 independent56 i hope there is a way to insure every part of your life with one insurance, like car, ahrdware, home, and everything
18:25 appguru That would be terribly expensive
18:26 independent56 this is where "i am not an adult™" comes into play,
18:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> appguru:  (from #-dev) a "kid-friendly" badge sounds like a nice idea, but problematic in practice
18:35 appguru kilbith, here we go: what do you suggest to fix the problem?
18:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> There are too many cultural norms and even personal choices wrapped up in what content would be considered appropriate for a kid...
18:35 appguru Warr1024: why problematic?
18:35 appguru we would have to define "kid-friendly" first
18:35 sfan5 having some sort of official branding for child-friendly servers is going to be cause a big mess once some server admin fails to enforce that at some point in time
18:35 MTDiscord <Warr1024> There are standards like PEGI or something we could try to use, assuming we could come up with an arbitration method to actually resolve disagreements about what actually qualifies.
18:36 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm not even talking about chat swear filters, even just "is this horror mod 'too scary' for this audience" is gonna be hard enough.
18:37 MTDiscord <appguru> the only scary mods (actually game) I know are still in WIP stage (IKEA)
18:37 MTDiscord <Warr1024> What we currently have is the ability for server admins to advertise on their own terms what they think the kid-friendliness level of a server is, but we rely on mostly reputational enforcement.
18:39 rubenwardy Also any curation puts more liability on us
18:41 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Ironically there are a lot of servers out there that are targeted to a younger audience but has stuff in there that I could argue is unhealthy or inappropriate for them on it, while I run a server that just barely stops short of having a "no kids" policy but parents love to bring their kids onto it because of the educational potential of the game mechanics XD
18:42 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Allowing severs to have content tags would be nice (as well as filtering for them)
18:42 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Both "has" and "does not have" tags would be ideal
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18:43 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Warning children away from certain servers seems fine to me, with it being left ambiguous about any servers not so marked.
18:44 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Actually asserting that any server IS child-friendly in any way is more than I'd be comfortable committing to though.
18:44 MTDiscord <Warr1024> There is a certain baseline level of risk inherent in any online play anyway, and concerned parties would do well to keep it in mind.
18:46 independent56 child-friendly is not child-welcoming.
18:46 independent56 my server is child-ok.
18:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I have a "no excess swearing in chat" rule.  That means you have to be okay with SOME swearing.  In practice if we know someone brought their kid with them to play, we try to tone it down, but we can't make promises.
18:49 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The gameplay itself is another issue.  There's nothing "bad" for children in it, but it's pretty harsh if you don't have at least a high school level education.
18:49 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Technically, because IKEA is more reliant on survival-horror (the scary part is mostly just trying not to die in slightly disturbing circumstances) it'll probably be fine for older kids, even in it's eventual released state (unless I add some deep physiological horror elements to areas like has been discussed)
18:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Heh, I feel like maybe there's a certain age past which it's unhealthy NOT to have experienced some psychological horror though.
18:50 independent56 what do you mean "harsh"? all that lua?
18:50 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> well, maybe shallow psychological horror is the better term
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18:51 independent56 such as...?
18:51 appguru gore
18:51 MTDiscord <Warr1024> By "harsh" I mean the game is difficult and unyielding.
18:52 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> App: That's the opposite of psychological horror, generally speaking
18:53 appguru That'd be called "visual horror" then?
18:53 independent56 Yeah, stuff which makes you think "oh my god i am a monster why am i like this"
18:53 appguru That's not all that shallow anymore I'd say
18:53 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha, that's the best kind
18:54 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> There are other kinds, but yes that is one example
18:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> NodeCore has psychological horror elements but it's very deeply buried, until you realize that every bad thing that's happened to you in gameplay was because of a decision you made :-)
18:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Psychological horror: some assembly required.
18:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> That would actually be a good way to describe IKEA too, though in a very different sense.
18:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I believe that the uncanny-valley faceless staffers in IKEA actually fall under a specific "body horror" subgenre
18:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> though tbh the fact that everything in MT is lo-fi so faceless dudes look totally not out of place kind of ruins that.
18:57 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> My idea has been for the path to the end game to be somewhat disturbing with it's soundscape and feel, with less than comforting results by the end. Perhaps psychological horror isn't the right term either though, since it's not trying to get in your head as much as it'd be trying to make you hate the landscape and feel the dread of your circumstances.
18:58 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Then again, that is kind of trying to "get in your head"
18:58 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Warr: Just wait until I have fun making new animation sets for them :P
18:59 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The funny thing about NC is that I never put any psychological horror or existential dread stuff in the game itself, I just lowered the background noise level enough that you can start to hear that stuff inside your own head...
19:01 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Truly, the most terrifying things already live inside your head
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19:03 twoelk "hate the landscape" ?? but I like visiting IKEA
19:04 independent56 the background noise? i just listen to music on the background, because i like music. it makes the voices in my head go away
19:06 twoelk haven't tried the IKEA game as of lately - are those little example furnished rooms also included?
19:06 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Sidenote, I'd love it if we could define a sound's source as a type of node, but only for the positional side of things
19:06 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> twoelk: There are basic Warehouse and Showroom departments as of right now
19:06 MTDiscord <Warr1024> What do you mean by "sound source as a type of node?"
19:07 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> positional audio source
19:07 MTDiscord <Warr1024> you can play sounds positionally, you just need to be responsible for doing it yourself.
19:07 MTDiscord <Warr1024> you can't make it emit from ALL nearby nodes of a given type though unless you send multiple play commands.
19:07 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Right
19:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You can't really do this for music though, or any sound that's very long
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19:08 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I'd like to have that without having to mess with say, moving an entity around (though that's probably what I'll do though when I revamp the music code)
19:08 twoelk I once experimented with a fountain as sorce of noice - was nice sometimes and a PITA to keep working correctly at times, kept getting unloaded or freezing in mid note
19:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> as far as I know a sound is only delivered to players in range at the time it's started, and if a player walks into range later while it should still be playing, I don't think they hear it...
19:09 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If you could have the server track state of positional sound "entities" server-side and replicate them to clients that wander into range of them, and add the ability to start playing a sound with a time offset within the sound file, you could come pretty close to having background music coming from speakers.
19:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I suppose I don't need to use entities, I can just keep track of the starting timestamp for the song and start up a new sound with the correct offset, and remove the old one when the player leaves
19:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> *leaves the area
19:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> sound_play appears not to have an offset option
19:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> according to lua_api
19:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> feels like it otter
19:15 twoelk what happens if I hop around on sound-area borders?
19:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> granted, there are a number of things that could be improved about sound_play, like the ability to schedule a sound to start at an exact future timestamp relative to some common point of reference, like when the player actually emerged client-side, so that musical things can be timed properly.
19:16 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I haven't tested the "sounds don't player for players entering the sound area" thing since like 0.4.16 specifically but I have no reason to believe it's been addressed since then...
19:16 sfan5 Minetest is missing a common timeline between client and server in general
19:16 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I did have some sound samples I wanted to play that were like 30 second loops at the time, but I had to cut them down into smaller segments or else a player had time to approach the thing without hearing the sound before it suddenly started on the next cycle.
19:17 twoelk don't we have a church bells mod with a scheduled time of chiming?
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19:17 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> You're right, there is no sound offset parameter
19:17 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I could've sworn there was
19:17 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Having a full common timeline would be nice, but at least just for sound it'd be good to be able to do like "midi music" sorts of things without network jitter killing the timing.
19:18 MTDiscord <Warr1024> There have been a number of no-go mod ideas around dynamic or generated music, or musical sequencing boxes, etc. that end up only working in SP if at all...
19:18 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Some people are very sensitive to bad timing in music, though if your network connection is anything less than ideal, you don't have to be all that sensitive even.
19:19 sfan5 SSCSM will give modders the ability to put bandaid on it
19:19 sfan5 still not good ofc
19:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Nobody seems to like bandaids much but they sure do beat bleeding.
19:20 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I suppose barring a starting offset, moving a couple entities between sound sources would probably work
19:21 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You don't need timing offsets if you chop your music up into segments and play them in sequence ... but then you'd need the ability to actually carefully time the start point of sounds and not be subject to network jitter.
19:21 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Alternatively, being able to A) specify multiple sources as-if it were multiple sounds and B) change that at runtime would work
19:22 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> But that would require more control over sounds via handles
19:22 twoelk some bandaids are made to look appealing to kids; good enough to trigger the "me too" effect
19:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Supposedly in theory you could increase the maximum audible range.  The problem would be that what you'd have to increase it TO is the amount of distance a player could conceivably travel during one play-through of your song, which could cover a LOT of speaker nodes.
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19:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> This is about where I would start to question certain assumptions, like the idea that an otherworldly IKEA inhabited by faceless creatures would play on their speakers sounds that we as humans would recognize as music.
19:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If you make the speakers play something that's naturally cacophonous then the fact that you can't exactly control it would make it easier to fail to notice the seams.
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19:24 twoelk I once tried to set up a market with changing sounds as I wander about between different sellers shouting their offers. Never got any where near good enough to even show anybody
19:25 Extex joined #minetest
19:25 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I suppose I could keep a database of speaker node positions and play the sounds at all of the ones in range, but that's gonna get pricey to filter with time
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19:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Take the free/open music you were going to use, time-stretch it to about 8x length, pick random segments from it, fade in and out each one to make a pool of eerie otherworldly sounds, and then just play random ones at random timings from each speaker.
19:26 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Doing that would probably ruin the "This almost seems normal at first" feel I want opening hours to have, though
19:26 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also as players who have been inhabiting the IKEA from the early days we all agree that it "totally sounds normal to me" and "no idea what your'e talking about" when new players ask about the music.
19:27 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> heh
19:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Just don't play the music during the day, and only fade it in subtly as closing hour approaches... :-)
19:28 MTDiscord <Warr1024> tbh I don't really notice the music, or lack of music, in a store anyway.
19:28 twoelk actually if it doesnt change with time - it might give clues of its age by analyzing its style
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19:30 twoelk I sometimes search for a speaker to get a clearer version of a tune that manages to get my attention - usually I get staff attention though as I wander into restricted areas
19:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It does bring up a lot of questions about the infinite IKEA that people struggling for survival or containment probably never really thought about.  We know it's infinite and isotropic in 2 spatial dimensions but not the 3rd, but then that makes you wonder about the time dimension.  Does it evolve over time or is everything there timeless and from no era in particular?  Or is time perhaps a local phenomenon and you'll travel through eras
19:32 MTDiscord gradually as you move spatially?
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19:35 twoelk judging by the original story it does seem to progress in time
19:36 twoelk it probably is not similar to L-space of diskworld
19:40 twoelk would be cool if it was similar in function to the world-of-ponds limbo in "The magicians nephew" with many worlds providing visitor sources
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19:43 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I'd like to get basic gameplay  implemented and a beta released :P
19:44 twoelk for gameplay to work wouldn't a restaurant area be needed for basic food supply?
19:45 twoelk and a reason to leave safebase
19:48 twoelk of course the restaurant area would need to be protected so one could not build there but the vending machines or maybe food stands may be used
19:48 twoelk gtg
19:48 twoelk bye
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19:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You only need one gameplay loop for a beta.  Just like "you build, staff destroy" is enough.  You don't need hunger or anything immediately.
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19:56 benrob0329 !tell twoelk Already planned, though I don't remember if I had any ideas for how to keep players from building there
19:56 MinetestBot benrob0329: I'll pass that on when twoelk is around
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20:00 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Wait, why shouldn't you be allowed to build in the dining areas?
20:01 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Good point
20:02 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I suppose it's just an optimal strategy that would take away some of the challenge, but then again the Staff probably need to go there to replenish the food
20:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Either that or fouling up the cafeteria by building there will cause the food to go bad.
20:03 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Or maybe players can be allowed to build there and have unlimited food, but they'll sacrifice some other resource they would have had if they had built elsewhere.  Maybe you can exploit one resource for free from anywhere, but there's no single resource that's sufficient to survive indefinitely.
20:08 independent_ is using the nodecore wiki cheating?
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20:18 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It's not "against the rules" or anything, but be warned that once you already know a thing, it's very difficult to get back the thrill of discovering it yourself.
20:23 independent_ Is it normal behaviour for the fire to extinguish itself after? i might be hitting it accidently during the pummeling... and it's annoying.
20:26 independent_ oh wait it is
20:30 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You cannot put fire out by hand in nodecore
20:46 independent_ hmm...
20:51 independent_ yay fire working :->
20:54 Extex joined #minetest
20:58 independent_ now i have a bonfire
21:07 independent_ Nodecore trees ar eboring. it slowly grows, not like saplings suddenly popping up, killing those who walk over them.
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21:24 specing sofar: but a bit too bleak - everything is too gray
21:25 sofar specing: hah, try some of the levels. But yeah the color palette is on purpose a bit less saturated
21:26 sofar specing: I went for a look that stands out a bit and doesn't do oversaturated textures
21:27 sofar there's enough of that already ;)
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21:37 MTDiscord <Warr1024> sofar: is it possible to reset a box?  I'm not sure but I think I might have broken one of the tutorial ones, maybe hitting buttons too fast?
21:41 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Welp, I'm stuck on box 27...
21:42 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I see a mechanism but I'm all out of buttons to push to activate it
21:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> n/m, that was pretty well hidden, considering the level had such simple geometry overall
21:51 sofar heh
21:52 sofar there's walkthrough videos for the tutorial parts just for that :)
21:58 independent_ ugh... nodecore is horrible. i started playing at 19:00, but when i looked up from my computer, i saw it was 22:57. ugh! i need to submit an issue - "gameplay too immersive"
21:58 independent_ goodnight
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22:01 MTDiscord <Warr1024> :-D
22:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm used to expecting there to be timing issues if you trigger mechanisms too quickly so that's why I misled myself into thinking I might have busted box 27
22:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> though I assumed that tutorial levels get the most testing ... but then, not everyone actually checks race conditions
22:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> but the button I needed was pretty obvious, it was just hard to reach with the sneak mechanic disabled and my acrophobia.
22:04 independent_ Just finished backing up t the hdd
22:04 independent_ just need to cpy over some MT backups
22:07 independent_ i need to make another copy for remote backup, then i will be fine.
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