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| 05:22 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I can't remember if I asked this before or not, but how does one hold sneak or aux while punching or digging on Android? I tried the obvious thing and it didn't work for me. |
| 05:32 |
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erlehmann |
Warr1024 what is "the obvious thing"? |
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MinetestBot |
[git] NeroBurner -> minetest/minetest: Use user provided lib/irrlichtmt if available (#11276) fa4dee0 https://git.io/Jcmsc (2021-06-29T07:57:19Z) |
| 08:03 |
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| 11:19 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> @Warr1024 you have to start digging before using sneak/aux, otherwise it wont work |
| 11:20 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Any item with "sneak+leftclick to use" will not work that you cant start digging and sneaking at the sametime |
| 11:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> So it only works with dig, not punch then? |
| 11:20 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> It works with punch too if you start punching first |
| 11:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You can't start a punch, punches are instantaneous |
| 11:21 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It sounds like a bug to me |
| 11:21 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> you cant punch/dig after starting to sprint or sneak |
| 11:21 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> Huh? On my server you keep holding down punch until the monster with 5,000 HP dies eventually |
| 11:22 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> yes i do? |
| 11:22 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I keep punching |
| 11:22 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> If your game only allows 1 punch then you need to find some kind of workaround for that |
| 11:22 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Dont hold my hand |
| 11:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> thats one of the things which make android controllers harder |
| 11:23 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> AFAIK the punching mechanic depends on the tool/item registration |
| 11:24 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> For entities infinite punches definitely work |
| 11:24 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Huh, this is pretty bullshit. MT's controls have a very limited vocabulary and this just makes it that much worse. |
| 11:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> im saying if you need to punch or dig while sprinting or snekaing you need to start punching or digging first |
| 11:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Indeed, aswell as the fact you cant move the camera while punching or digging |
| 11:25 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Also Aux1 is not sprint, that's and MTGism |
| 11:25 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> I was responding to 'you cannot punch first since it's instant' |
| 11:25 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> aa.. no as long as u dont hold ur hand it will keep punching |
| 11:26 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I really think punching/digging need a button just like left mouse click |
| 11:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The problem is that if I want to sneak punch I technically can but not without non-sneak punching first, so then it may be too late. |
| 11:26 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Adding that will remove this problem and will make people be able to move their camera while punching or digging |
| 11:26 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I can see why they don't just use the cursor |
| 11:27 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> So you need a sneak+leftclick to activate something in a tool? |
| 11:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> But maybe allowing these to be toggles instead of held might be better |
| 11:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Regular left click, sneak left click, aux left click, and sneak aux left click should all be able to be different things without breaking mobile |
| 11:28 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> hmm.. adding one button as left mouse click to android will make that |
| 11:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Also making sneak and aux lock toggle on double tap could make it usable. |
| 11:29 |
MTDiscord |
<IhrFussel> If your tool uses on_use() then punching will only trigger once unfortuantely which means it will be super hard to do on mobile |
| 11:30 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> > Also making sneak and aux lock toggle on double tap could make it usable. This isnt really needed, adding the button i mentioned will solve it, but maybe this as a setting you can enable/disable? |
| 11:30 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Anything that needs sneak or sprint and leftclick at the sametime to activate will not work on phone |
| 11:31 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Because these stuff needs to either start sneaking first or both at the sametime |
| 12:00 |
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| 12:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There are apparently issues that cover this stuff in GH still open, I just had a hard time finding them because they're 3 years old. |
| 12:08 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I had a feature request, edited it a bit accordingly to this conversation |
| 12:31 |
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| 12:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Issue number or link? |
| 12:54 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Oh sorry, #10843 |
| 12:54 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10843 -- Some edits on controls on phone devises |
| 13:01 |
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| 13:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> That issue title feels like it could be made more dire :-) The lack of parity between platforms is more of an accessibility problem than just a nice to have tweak. |
| 13:06 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> About title, yeah it sucks i know |
| 13:07 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> So that means it had to be an issue not a feature request? |
| 13:08 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's a gray area maybe. The lack of ability to enter certain inputs I feel is a bug. Any particular approach to changing the controls though might be a feature, especially changing to a crosshair-centric system like desktop or adding a toggle for it. |
| 13:09 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I felt that too, that will rdquire making an issue and a featue request |
| 13:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Who actually maintains android anymore anyway? Are we dependent on upstreaming from forks for it like we were in the past? |
| 13:09 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Require* |
| 13:09 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> no idea |
| 13:09 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> There is someone in credits who did some changes in android version tho |
| 13:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Maybe it does deserve a separate issue specifically for the lack of parity... |
| 13:11 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I mean.. it is only one and i think it will take some ages to be worked on |
| 13:11 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> If im gonna split it to an issue and featue request.. probably they will never be worked on |
| 13:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Well, the proper flow of this would be to (1) identify the problem, i.e. that certain actions are simply impossible on mobile, and then (2) look at possible solutions (a left-click button or removing press-to-dig, vs sheak/aux toggles), and then (3) pick a solution that's actually practical and get it done. Without a mobile expert to weigh in we can't know how difficult each approach is to actually do on mobile, and thus we can't know |
| 13:20 |
MTDiscord |
what's most likely to actually work within the development effort available. |
| 13:21 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Well i will gladly make much issues |
| 13:22 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I petsonally like reporting things to help development but when i see an issue with "high priority" that exist since 2014 i feel reporting these things is just adding an issue and it will never be fixed |
| 13:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I will add an issue for that hard controling on android tho |
| 13:27 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Haha, it's basically like people coming to the helpdesk, pushing past everyone to get to the front of the line: "but it's an emergency!" and then I say "oh, okay, emergencies are THAT line over there" and then point to the only line, which snakes around the block. |
| 13:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Every time I ask someone to rank-order their issues there's a decent chance it will come back all tied for first, "they're ALL the most important!" |
| 13:28 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Lol? |
| 13:29 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I didnt say these are the most important while not reporting tho :þ |
| 13:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I want to say that this is just how the software world works, but if you've ever sat in an Emergency Room waiting for 4+ hours, it seems like it's just how the world works. |
| 13:30 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> And im not blaming how it works |
| 13:30 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> What I'm saying is that even when the dev team itself prioritizes stuff, "high priority" doesn't necessarily mean it'll actually get worked on. |
| 13:31 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Well, i mean when i see what is high priority waited 7 years and didnt get fix, its most likely im just adding the issue to increase the stuff that will never be worked on, i'll add an issue for that android thing tho, thought that feature request was enough |
| 13:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> To actually move forward, things need an intersection of someone with time available, someone with the necessary expertise in that particular area, high visibility for an issue, and a developer who actually agrees with the urgency ... even in my own projects I tend to accumulate new ultra-critical issues faster than they actually get done :-/ |
| 13:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, I dunno |
| 13:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It seems like old stale issues should be closed, but people want to hang onto them if they've had any level of discussion, but there isn't a really practical way to give them a good "bump" either... |
| 13:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> New fresh issues at least have a shot at making the cut, but it's also kind of dishonest to try closing an old issue and reopening one just to get it hot again :-) |
| 13:33 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I understand that devs cant fix everything very fast |
| 13:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It sucks for me too because (1) it's important to me that my game not discriminate against certain players, including mobile, and (2) I don't think I have the expertise to actually fix android controls. What this means is that I will need to make sure that anything requiring use of sneak while doing anything other than moving is non-essential for gameplay. It's rather limiting. |
| 13:34 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I will gladly make issues for everything, and im not saying 'devs dont work' or something, i do understand the fact they made a free game for people to have fun and they dont have to spend all their time in it |
| 13:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The most productive thing I feel I can do is help consolidate the issues around android so that they're gathered and organized in one place and can actually be reasonably prioritized ... but digging through a decade of issues that have all been handled inconsistently sucks too... |
| 13:35 |
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| 13:36 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I'd be proud to be the one who mentions the important bugs in phones as long as its being taked care of |
| 13:37 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Thinking of a title for that issue im making rn.. expect a bad one tho |
| 13:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> haha |
| 13:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Maybe what we need is one of those project/roadmap thingies that GH has, i.e. higher-order constructs that let you group and organize issues... |
| 13:41 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Well i think that will help dev side to see what is most important.. |
| 13:52 |
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| 14:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> @Warr1024 #11404 hope others wont say its a feature request |
| 14:10 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11404 -- Android controls are very limited |
| 14:10 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> (Please ignore the titles of my issues) |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> heh |
| 14:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> well, if there was an existing issue that covered this then I guess maybe we'll find out if it gets marked as duplicate |
| 14:17 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> When people mark things as duplicate though, they often don't go back and merge the non-duplicate parts of the new issue with the OP of the old issue, so that would probably need to be fixed if so... |
| 14:17 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> cant agree with that |
| 14:17 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> In my first issue, they labelled it as duplicate |
| 14:18 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> But after me telling them mine includes more details, they removed taht and closed the other one |
| 14:18 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> That* |
| 14:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> haha |
| 14:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> yeah, that's gotta be improved |
| 14:18 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> (And mine included more stuff needs to be fixec) |
| 14:19 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Fixed* |
| 14:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It does help to keep issues concise and focused and label them well. If you get too deep into the weeds in your topic, and it includes stuff that's not described in the title, then that stuff may get more easily lost. There's a fine art to filing issues, and if I find a method that works consistently with MT I'll let you know ;-) |
| 14:20 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Heh, yeah when i make an issue i make it detailed and contain side stuff (and im nit the best with titles :þ) |
| 14:30 |
celeron55 |
the hairier you make an issue or a PR, the less likely it is to get solved or merged |
| 14:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There's a balancing act because (1) you do need to clarify sometimes when something that sounds like an obvious solution wouldn't fill the actual need, and (2) too many fine-grained issues is just gonna make the issues list harder to search and navigate. |
| 14:33 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Hairier? |
| 14:33 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I believe "hairier" is used here to mean "more surface area." |
| 14:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Like that request at the top for the ABM batched API that I partly misinterpreted the first time because it was just so long-winded... |
| 14:34 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Ah i see |
| 14:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> A good issue is sort of like an elevator pitch. You get a limited amount of attention from anyone reading your issue, and you have to make the best use of it, to get them to understand your issue and agree that it's worth addressing. |
| 14:35 |
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| 14:35 |
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| 14:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> You need to be informative and persuasive so there isn't as much room to be contemplative... |
| 14:36 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I dont think i used hard terms or things that is hard to be understood, if there are then please let me know |
| 14:37 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> > the hairier you make an issue or a PR, the less likely it is to get solved or merged i added that issue to help the devs in knowing how to improve the android version and how to make it easier to use.. solve it if you like, dont if you dont like.. |
| 14:38 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Im personally used to the current controls, i use them for 5 years and they are good to me, but i mentioned what can be improved |
| 14:39 |
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| 14:39 |
celeron55 |
by hairy i mean adding stuff not strictly related to the core issue or change, or something that someone can disagree on while agreeing on the main thing |
| 14:40 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> While fixing it you dont need to agree with everything in it, fix the things that you see uhmm.. make sense |
| 14:41 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> im saying everything related to the main issue, fix the ones you want/agree with |
| 14:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The first person you need to sell an issue to is really yourself. If you don't really feel strongly enough about something to champion it then your issue probably won't go very far. |
| 14:42 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I will not lose anything if it doesnt get merged tbh, and yeah i did ask myself and this wasnt the first time i think about controls |
| 14:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> As a developer, I've found that what I've come to call a Pigovian Tax is a pretty simple and adaptable way to tell if users really care about their issues or not, and if they don't care, then I probably shouldn't either. |
| 14:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Just ask them to pay a little extra attention to see if they still care once they're forced to internalize some of the extra cost beyond just filing the issue. Ask them if the problem is still valid, or to provide some test cases, or to demonstrate it. |
| 14:46 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> If someone is asking me to stay late after work to fix some critical issue, then dammit, they're staying with me >:-| |
| 14:47 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I understand that, i see merging it will do a huge difference in the game play, i was saying, i added it for help and im ready to add any needed information to it but i what i meant was that i mentioned the related things to it and u dont need to agee with the whole issue fix/merge the things you agree with |
| 14:47 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> If you have any question/need any farther info in any issue i added you can @me and i will do my best |
| 14:48 |
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| 14:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yeah, it's all good. We'll see where it goes. |
| 14:49 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I'd love for an issue like that to be championed by someone passionate about it, but I think all my passionate championing is already allocated elsewhere. |
| 14:50 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Well if you ask me i will say that issue adds things that will change the whole gameplay and make the difference between playing on a phone and a pc alot less |
| 14:50 |
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| 14:51 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> And i do want it to be merged and im always available to add more info in these covid days.. |
| 14:51 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Was saying, when you disagree with a part of it you can either say why you disagree with that part or just not care about it |
| 14:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> One irony here is that I think the engine's goal should be parity between desktop and mobile (and it's a goal for my game), but it seems like there are segments of the server and modder population who go the opposite way and are actively trying to differentiate and discriminate against mobile users. |
| 14:53 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Im not a programmer so i cant know what is easy to do and what isnt, but i really thought alot about that one and i see adding a single button to fix all that issues isnt hard to do |
| 14:54 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> Isnt as hard as the other things i thought of |
| 14:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> It's all a mess too because mobile controls need to be "intuitive" but then there's the question of "intuitive for whom" because what we call "intuition" is more often learned than innate. |
| 14:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I don't play a ton on mobile but it is a decent way to play side-by-side multiplayer when the person you want to play sitting next to has their computer in a different room than your own. |
| 14:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> So far luckily I haven't run into any really game-breaking issues yet, but at least now I know I need to be on my guard. |
| 14:56 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Can't just use the sneak and aux controls for whatever I want to; optional things only. |
| 14:56 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> I will gladly help in anything i can help with |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Heh, so apparently sneak+drop and aux+drop are possible on mobile, just awkward |
| 14:58 |
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| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> when you press and hold the sneak or aux keys, it closes the action menu that contains the drop command |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> so you have to hold sneak THEN expand the menu and then hit drop |
| 14:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> but at least it's possible. |
| 14:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> IIRC sneak+dig is used in games as a convention for "actually just dig, don't punch" |
| 14:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> similar to how sneak+place is used for "actually place, don't right-click the thing I'm placing against" |
| 15:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> > Heh, so apparently sneak+drop and aux+drop are possible on mobile, just awkward Yes this is true also sneak/aux+rightclick(double click) works aswell, i think the problem is in leftclick(press hplding) it wont work while using sneak or aux since you are already pressing and holding on sneak/aux |
| 15:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> That is why my suggestion was a button, to not confuse the devise by holding to dig/punch and holding to aux/sneak at the sametime |
| 15:24 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> (i tried aux+drop in NC and it works well |
| 15:26 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> > when you press and hold the sneak or aux keys, it closes the action menu that contains the drop command > so you have to hold sneak THEN expand the menu and then hit drop Yeah.. since both are buttons one of them should be pressed longly to activate the other one by normal clicking while holding the first one, and since holding drop makes nothing, you gotta hold sneak or aux |
| 15:27 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> > similar to how sneak+place is used for "actually place, don't right-click the thing I'm placing against" This works fine in android, only leftclick(holding) have a problem |
| 15:32 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Okay, good to know that the problem is limited to just LMB... |
| 15:46 |
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| 15:49 |
MTDiscord |
<wwar> good luck~ |
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| 17:44 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11399#issuecomment-870744300 -- proof of concept works pretty nicely... |
| 18:09 |
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| 20:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> This does nothing if def.damage is 1 or 0 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/456539013491458079/859527153287823380/unknown.png |
| 20:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> I expect fleshy = 1 to deal half a heart of damage |
| 20:21 |
Krock |
1 deals 1 HP damage |
| 20:21 |
Krock |
might or might not by 1/2 of a heart |
| 20:21 |
Krock |
s/by/be/ |
| 20:21 |
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| 20:26 |
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| 20:31 |
ghoti |
In basic_robot, what function should I be looking at to use tools? I'd like to make a farming robot that harvests with a scythe rather than just punching the ground. |
| 20:36 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> 1 deals 0 damage |
| 20:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> 2 deals 1hp damage |
| 20:39 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> aka a half heart |
| 20:44 |
calcul0n_ |
ghoti, i doubt it's possible, the bot can't use tools |
| 20:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> Join the game with this mod enabled, you should have full health then after 5 seconds a half heart loss https://pastebin.com/kCSwH0Ve |
| 20:45 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> (@Krock) |
| 20:45 |
Krock |
@Lone_Wolf check for shield effect |
| 20:46 |
Krock |
i.e. armor group. |
| 20:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> https://i.imgur.com/fOoRKdw.png |
| 20:48 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> (Player armor groups) |
| 20:53 |
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| 20:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> Ok, it's the full_punch_interval |
| 21:13 |
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| 21:15 |
MTDiscord |
<Lone_Wolf> What's the default when full_punch_interval isn't set? |
| 21:21 |
Krock |
1.4 according to engine defaults if nothing is specified |
| 21:21 |
Krock |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/a106bfd456509b676ccba0ac9bef75c214819028/src/tool.h#L66 |
| 21:31 |
ghoti |
calcul0n_: ah, so the best I can do is keep a running supply of seeds which I collect with pickup() ? (Or would a robot automatically pick up items freed while digging?) |
| 21:35 |
calcul0n_ |
ghoti, it will get seeds when you dig crops, but for some reason wheat is buggy so it doesn't get them all |
| 21:35 |
calcul0n_ |
might depend on the version you're using |
| 21:49 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Hahaha, ghoti I like your name |
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independent56 |
I wish ARS has global variables, so you could have a group of lines for oversized trains. |
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independent56 |
melatonin drunkness. |
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independent56 |
my server gets 1 guest per day on average. they comment on the lag and leave |
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specing |
lool |
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