Time Nick Message 05:22 MTDiscord I can't remember if I asked this before or not, but how does one hold sneak or aux while punching or digging on Android? I tried the obvious thing and it didn't work for me. 06:05 erlehmann Warr1024 what is "the obvious thing"? 07:57 MinetestBot 02[git] 04NeroBurner -> 03minetest/minetest: Use user provided lib/irrlichtmt if available (#11276) 13fa4dee0 https://git.io/Jcmsc (152021-06-29T07:57:19Z) 11:19 MTDiscord @Warr1024 you have to start digging before using sneak/aux, otherwise it wont work 11:20 MTDiscord Any item with "sneak+leftclick to use" will not work that you cant start digging and sneaking at the sametime 11:20 MTDiscord So it only works with dig, not punch then? 11:20 MTDiscord It works with punch too if you start punching first 11:20 MTDiscord You can't start a punch, punches are instantaneous 11:21 MTDiscord It sounds like a bug to me 11:21 MTDiscord you cant punch/dig after starting to sprint or sneak 11:21 MTDiscord Huh? On my server you keep holding down punch until the monster with 5,000 HP dies eventually 11:22 MTDiscord yes i do? 11:22 MTDiscord I keep punching 11:22 MTDiscord If your game only allows 1 punch then you need to find some kind of workaround for that 11:22 MTDiscord Dont hold my hand 11:23 MTDiscord thats one of the things which make android controllers harder 11:23 MTDiscord AFAIK the punching mechanic depends on the tool/item registration 11:24 MTDiscord For entities infinite punches definitely work 11:24 MTDiscord Huh, this is pretty bullshit. MT's controls have a very limited vocabulary and this just makes it that much worse. 11:24 MTDiscord im saying if you need to punch or dig while sprinting or snekaing you need to start punching or digging first 11:24 MTDiscord Indeed, aswell as the fact you cant move the camera while punching or digging 11:25 MTDiscord Also Aux1 is not sprint, that's and MTGism 11:25 MTDiscord I was responding to 'you cannot punch first since it's instant' 11:25 MTDiscord aa.. no as long as u dont hold ur hand it will keep punching 11:26 MTDiscord I really think punching/digging need a button just like left mouse click 11:26 MTDiscord The problem is that if I want to sneak punch I technically can but not without non-sneak punching first, so then it may be too late. 11:26 MTDiscord Adding that will remove this problem and will make people be able to move their camera while punching or digging 11:26 MTDiscord I can see why they don't just use the cursor 11:27 MTDiscord So you need a sneak+leftclick to activate something in a tool? 11:27 MTDiscord But maybe allowing these to be toggles instead of held might be better 11:28 MTDiscord Regular left click, sneak left click, aux left click, and sneak aux left click should all be able to be different things without breaking mobile 11:28 MTDiscord hmm.. adding one button as left mouse click to android will make that 11:29 MTDiscord Also making sneak and aux lock toggle on double tap could make it usable. 11:29 MTDiscord If your tool uses on_use() then punching will only trigger once unfortuantely which means it will be super hard to do on mobile 11:30 MTDiscord > Also making sneak and aux lock toggle on double tap could make it usable. This isnt really needed, adding the button i mentioned will solve it, but maybe this as a setting you can enable/disable? 11:30 MTDiscord Anything that needs sneak or sprint and leftclick at the sametime to activate will not work on phone 11:31 MTDiscord Because these stuff needs to either start sneaking first or both at the sametime 12:01 MTDiscord There are apparently issues that cover this stuff in GH still open, I just had a hard time finding them because they're 3 years old. 12:08 MTDiscord I had a feature request, edited it a bit accordingly to this conversation 12:46 MTDiscord Issue number or link? 12:54 MTDiscord Oh sorry, #10843 12:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10843 -- Some edits on controls on phone devises 13:06 MTDiscord That issue title feels like it could be made more dire :-) The lack of parity between platforms is more of an accessibility problem than just a nice to have tweak. 13:06 MTDiscord About title, yeah it sucks i know 13:07 MTDiscord So that means it had to be an issue not a feature request? 13:08 MTDiscord It's a gray area maybe. The lack of ability to enter certain inputs I feel is a bug. Any particular approach to changing the controls though might be a feature, especially changing to a crosshair-centric system like desktop or adding a toggle for it. 13:09 MTDiscord I felt that too, that will rdquire making an issue and a featue request 13:09 MTDiscord Who actually maintains android anymore anyway? Are we dependent on upstreaming from forks for it like we were in the past? 13:09 MTDiscord Require* 13:09 MTDiscord no idea 13:09 MTDiscord There is someone in credits who did some changes in android version tho 13:09 MTDiscord Maybe it does deserve a separate issue specifically for the lack of parity... 13:11 MTDiscord I mean.. it is only one and i think it will take some ages to be worked on 13:11 MTDiscord If im gonna split it to an issue and featue request.. probably they will never be worked on 13:20 MTDiscord Well, the proper flow of this would be to (1) identify the problem, i.e. that certain actions are simply impossible on mobile, and then (2) look at possible solutions (a left-click button or removing press-to-dig, vs sheak/aux toggles), and then (3) pick a solution that's actually practical and get it done. Without a mobile expert to weigh in we can't know how difficult each approach is to actually do on mobile, and thus we can't know 13:20 MTDiscord what's most likely to actually work within the development effort available. 13:21 MTDiscord Well i will gladly make much issues 13:22 MTDiscord I petsonally like reporting things to help development but when i see an issue with "high priority" that exist since 2014 i feel reporting these things is just adding an issue and it will never be fixed 13:24 MTDiscord I will add an issue for that hard controling on android tho 13:27 MTDiscord Haha, it's basically like people coming to the helpdesk, pushing past everyone to get to the front of the line: "but it's an emergency!" and then I say "oh, okay, emergencies are THAT line over there" and then point to the only line, which snakes around the block. 13:28 MTDiscord Every time I ask someone to rank-order their issues there's a decent chance it will come back all tied for first, "they're ALL the most important!" 13:28 MTDiscord Lol? 13:29 MTDiscord I didnt say these are the most important while not reporting tho :þ 13:29 MTDiscord I want to say that this is just how the software world works, but if you've ever sat in an Emergency Room waiting for 4+ hours, it seems like it's just how the world works. 13:30 MTDiscord And im not blaming how it works 13:30 MTDiscord What I'm saying is that even when the dev team itself prioritizes stuff, "high priority" doesn't necessarily mean it'll actually get worked on. 13:31 MTDiscord Well, i mean when i see what is high priority waited 7 years and didnt get fix, its most likely im just adding the issue to increase the stuff that will never be worked on, i'll add an issue for that android thing tho, thought that feature request was enough 13:32 MTDiscord To actually move forward, things need an intersection of someone with time available, someone with the necessary expertise in that particular area, high visibility for an issue, and a developer who actually agrees with the urgency ... even in my own projects I tend to accumulate new ultra-critical issues faster than they actually get done :-/ 13:32 MTDiscord Yeah, I dunno 13:32 MTDiscord It seems like old stale issues should be closed, but people want to hang onto them if they've had any level of discussion, but there isn't a really practical way to give them a good "bump" either... 13:33 MTDiscord New fresh issues at least have a shot at making the cut, but it's also kind of dishonest to try closing an old issue and reopening one just to get it hot again :-) 13:33 MTDiscord I understand that devs cant fix everything very fast 13:34 MTDiscord It sucks for me too because (1) it's important to me that my game not discriminate against certain players, including mobile, and (2) I don't think I have the expertise to actually fix android controls. What this means is that I will need to make sure that anything requiring use of sneak while doing anything other than moving is non-essential for gameplay. It's rather limiting. 13:34 MTDiscord I will gladly make issues for everything, and im not saying 'devs dont work' or something, i do understand the fact they made a free game for people to have fun and they dont have to spend all their time in it 13:35 MTDiscord The most productive thing I feel I can do is help consolidate the issues around android so that they're gathered and organized in one place and can actually be reasonably prioritized ... but digging through a decade of issues that have all been handled inconsistently sucks too... 13:36 MTDiscord I'd be proud to be the one who mentions the important bugs in phones as long as its being taked care of 13:37 MTDiscord Thinking of a title for that issue im making rn.. expect a bad one tho 13:39 MTDiscord haha 13:41 MTDiscord Maybe what we need is one of those project/roadmap thingies that GH has, i.e. higher-order constructs that let you group and organize issues... 13:41 MTDiscord Well i think that will help dev side to see what is most important.. 14:10 MTDiscord @Warr1024 #11404 hope others wont say its a feature request 14:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11404 -- Android controls are very limited 14:10 MTDiscord (Please ignore the titles of my issues) 14:16 MTDiscord heh 14:16 MTDiscord well, if there was an existing issue that covered this then I guess maybe we'll find out if it gets marked as duplicate 14:17 MTDiscord When people mark things as duplicate though, they often don't go back and merge the non-duplicate parts of the new issue with the OP of the old issue, so that would probably need to be fixed if so... 14:17 MTDiscord cant agree with that 14:17 MTDiscord In my first issue, they labelled it as duplicate 14:18 MTDiscord But after me telling them mine includes more details, they removed taht and closed the other one 14:18 MTDiscord That* 14:18 MTDiscord haha 14:18 MTDiscord yeah, that's gotta be improved 14:18 MTDiscord (And mine included more stuff needs to be fixec) 14:19 MTDiscord Fixed* 14:19 MTDiscord It does help to keep issues concise and focused and label them well. If you get too deep into the weeds in your topic, and it includes stuff that's not described in the title, then that stuff may get more easily lost. There's a fine art to filing issues, and if I find a method that works consistently with MT I'll let you know ;-) 14:20 MTDiscord Heh, yeah when i make an issue i make it detailed and contain side stuff (and im nit the best with titles :þ) 14:30 celeron55 the hairier you make an issue or a PR, the less likely it is to get solved or merged 14:33 MTDiscord There's a balancing act because (1) you do need to clarify sometimes when something that sounds like an obvious solution wouldn't fill the actual need, and (2) too many fine-grained issues is just gonna make the issues list harder to search and navigate. 14:33 MTDiscord Hairier? 14:33 MTDiscord I believe "hairier" is used here to mean "more surface area." 14:34 MTDiscord Like that request at the top for the ABM batched API that I partly misinterpreted the first time because it was just so long-winded... 14:34 MTDiscord Ah i see 14:35 MTDiscord A good issue is sort of like an elevator pitch. You get a limited amount of attention from anyone reading your issue, and you have to make the best use of it, to get them to understand your issue and agree that it's worth addressing. 14:35 MTDiscord You need to be informative and persuasive so there isn't as much room to be contemplative... 14:36 MTDiscord I dont think i used hard terms or things that is hard to be understood, if there are then please let me know 14:37 MTDiscord > the hairier you make an issue or a PR, the less likely it is to get solved or merged i added that issue to help the devs in knowing how to improve the android version and how to make it easier to use.. solve it if you like, dont if you dont like.. 14:38 MTDiscord Im personally used to the current controls, i use them for 5 years and they are good to me, but i mentioned what can be improved 14:39 celeron55 by hairy i mean adding stuff not strictly related to the core issue or change, or something that someone can disagree on while agreeing on the main thing 14:40 MTDiscord While fixing it you dont need to agree with everything in it, fix the things that you see uhmm.. make sense 14:41 MTDiscord im saying everything related to the main issue, fix the ones you want/agree with 14:41 MTDiscord The first person you need to sell an issue to is really yourself. If you don't really feel strongly enough about something to champion it then your issue probably won't go very far. 14:42 MTDiscord I will not lose anything if it doesnt get merged tbh, and yeah i did ask myself and this wasnt the first time i think about controls 14:44 MTDiscord As a developer, I've found that what I've come to call a Pigovian Tax is a pretty simple and adaptable way to tell if users really care about their issues or not, and if they don't care, then I probably shouldn't either. 14:45 MTDiscord Just ask them to pay a little extra attention to see if they still care once they're forced to internalize some of the extra cost beyond just filing the issue. Ask them if the problem is still valid, or to provide some test cases, or to demonstrate it. 14:46 MTDiscord If someone is asking me to stay late after work to fix some critical issue, then dammit, they're staying with me >:-| 14:47 MTDiscord I understand that, i see merging it will do a huge difference in the game play, i was saying, i added it for help and im ready to add any needed information to it but i what i meant was that i mentioned the related things to it and u dont need to agee with the whole issue fix/merge the things you agree with 14:47 MTDiscord If you have any question/need any farther info in any issue i added you can @me and i will do my best 14:48 MTDiscord Yeah, it's all good. We'll see where it goes. 14:49 MTDiscord I'd love for an issue like that to be championed by someone passionate about it, but I think all my passionate championing is already allocated elsewhere. 14:50 MTDiscord Well if you ask me i will say that issue adds things that will change the whole gameplay and make the difference between playing on a phone and a pc alot less 14:51 MTDiscord And i do want it to be merged and im always available to add more info in these covid days.. 14:51 MTDiscord Was saying, when you disagree with a part of it you can either say why you disagree with that part or just not care about it 14:53 MTDiscord One irony here is that I think the engine's goal should be parity between desktop and mobile (and it's a goal for my game), but it seems like there are segments of the server and modder population who go the opposite way and are actively trying to differentiate and discriminate against mobile users. 14:53 MTDiscord Im not a programmer so i cant know what is easy to do and what isnt, but i really thought alot about that one and i see adding a single button to fix all that issues isnt hard to do 14:54 MTDiscord Isnt as hard as the other things i thought of 14:55 MTDiscord It's all a mess too because mobile controls need to be "intuitive" but then there's the question of "intuitive for whom" because what we call "intuition" is more often learned than innate. 14:55 MTDiscord I don't play a ton on mobile but it is a decent way to play side-by-side multiplayer when the person you want to play sitting next to has their computer in a different room than your own. 14:56 MTDiscord So far luckily I haven't run into any really game-breaking issues yet, but at least now I know I need to be on my guard. 14:56 MTDiscord Can't just use the sneak and aux controls for whatever I want to; optional things only. 14:56 MTDiscord I will gladly help in anything i can help with 14:58 MTDiscord Heh, so apparently sneak+drop and aux+drop are possible on mobile, just awkward 14:58 MTDiscord when you press and hold the sneak or aux keys, it closes the action menu that contains the drop command 14:58 MTDiscord so you have to hold sneak THEN expand the menu and then hit drop 14:59 MTDiscord but at least it's possible. 14:59 MTDiscord IIRC sneak+dig is used in games as a convention for "actually just dig, don't punch" 14:59 MTDiscord similar to how sneak+place is used for "actually place, don't right-click the thing I'm placing against" 15:23 MTDiscord > Heh, so apparently sneak+drop and aux+drop are possible on mobile, just awkward Yes this is true also sneak/aux+rightclick(double click) works aswell, i think the problem is in leftclick(press hplding) it wont work while using sneak or aux since you are already pressing and holding on sneak/aux 15:23 MTDiscord That is why my suggestion was a button, to not confuse the devise by holding to dig/punch and holding to aux/sneak at the sametime 15:24 MTDiscord (i tried aux+drop in NC and it works well 15:26 MTDiscord > when you press and hold the sneak or aux keys, it closes the action menu that contains the drop command > so you have to hold sneak THEN expand the menu and then hit drop Yeah.. since both are buttons one of them should be pressed longly to activate the other one by normal clicking while holding the first one, and since holding drop makes nothing, you gotta hold sneak or aux 15:27 MTDiscord > similar to how sneak+place is used for "actually place, don't right-click the thing I'm placing against" This works fine in android, only leftclick(holding) have a problem 15:32 MTDiscord Okay, good to know that the problem is limited to just LMB... 15:49 MTDiscord good luck~ 17:44 MTDiscord https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11399#issuecomment-870744300 -- proof of concept works pretty nicely... 20:20 MTDiscord This does nothing if def.damage is 1 or 0 https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/456539013491458079/859527153287823380/unknown.png 20:20 MTDiscord I expect fleshy = 1 to deal half a heart of damage 20:21 Krock 1 deals 1 HP damage 20:21 Krock might or might not by 1/2 of a heart 20:21 Krock s/by/be/ 20:31 ghoti In basic_robot, what function should I be looking at to use tools? I'd like to make a farming robot that harvests with a scythe rather than just punching the ground. 20:36 MTDiscord 1 deals 0 damage 20:39 MTDiscord 2 deals 1hp damage 20:39 MTDiscord aka a half heart 20:44 calcul0n_ ghoti, i doubt it's possible, the bot can't use tools 20:45 MTDiscord Join the game with this mod enabled, you should have full health then after 5 seconds a half heart loss https://pastebin.com/kCSwH0Ve 20:45 MTDiscord (@Krock) 20:45 Krock @Lone_Wolf check for shield effect 20:46 Krock i.e. armor group. 20:48 MTDiscord https://i.imgur.com/fOoRKdw.png 20:48 MTDiscord (Player armor groups) 20:53 MTDiscord Ok, it's the full_punch_interval 21:15 MTDiscord What's the default when full_punch_interval isn't set? 21:21 Krock 1.4 according to engine defaults if nothing is specified 21:21 Krock https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/a106bfd456509b676ccba0ac9bef75c214819028/src/tool.h#L66 21:31 ghoti calcul0n_: ah, so the best I can do is keep a running supply of seeds which I collect with pickup() ? (Or would a robot automatically pick up items freed while digging?) 21:35 calcul0n_ ghoti, it will get seeds when you dig crops, but for some reason wheat is buggy so it doesn't get them all 21:35 calcul0n_ might depend on the version you're using 21:49 MTDiscord Hahaha, ghoti I like your name 22:07 independent56 I wish ARS has global variables, so you could have a group of lines for oversized trains. 22:08 independent56 melatonin drunkness. 22:08 independent56 my server gets 1 guest per day on average. they comment on the lag and leave 22:12 specing lool