IRC log for #minetest, 2015-07-06

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01:53	technomancy	does minetest expose any checksums over the lua API?
01:55	technomancy	I see there's a sha1 implementation in the C++, but it's not exposed it looks like
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01:57	kahrl	technomancy: it's hacky but you can use minetest.get_password_hash("", text_to_sha1)
01:57	kahrl	a few mods do that already iirc so it's probably not going away
01:57	technomancy	kahrl: oh, perfect
01:57	technomancy	thanks!
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02:52	technomancy	holy smokes; who designed lua's io.popen
02:52	technomancy	what idiot thought you should only be allowed to read or write from a pipe, but not both
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03:02	kaeza	technomancy, probably -> #lua
03:03	kaeza	and yes, it's idiotic
03:05	ekem	bidirectional pipes are not ideal
03:05	ekem	the reason they are left out is because they create a shit ton of problems
03:05	technomancy	ideal or not, they are a basic fact of operating systems
03:06	ekem	only for trivial operations
03:06	ekem	no one uses bidirectional pipes in production, its just not done
03:06	ekem	because of the insane amount of problems you introduce
03:06	ekem	heres a better write up then i will _ever_ produce
03:06	ekem	http://lua-users.org/lists/lua-l/2007-10/msg00189.html
03:07	kaeza	if you need them, you could just create a C lib exposing raw access to `popen`, but whatevs
03:07	ekem	notice how it mentions popen2 isnt even in posix itself?
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09:17	JamesTait	Good morning all; happy Monday, and happy Take Your Webmaster To Lunch Day! ðŸ˜ƒ
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13:29	Calinou	is it possible to speed up server downloads without using remote_media?
13:29	Calinou	ie. increasing max UDP upload speed
13:29	est31	its usually only the first time
13:29	est31	then no download is needed
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14:52	Sketch2	Here's a thought for speeding it up: what if media packs were stored on Minetest.net
14:52	Sketch2	When a server registers as public, a directory is set up to keep a current version of the cache files.
14:52	Sketch2	When you log into a server, the first thing it does is check that repository to get the files,
14:52	Sketch2	then it'll log into the server without bogging it down.
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14:54	Sketch2	I know some have uploaded their cache files as Zips that you download and unpack yourself, but I'm saying automate the whole process.
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14:57	Sketch2	I would imagine the bandwidth available on minetest.net is much greater than some of the smaller game servers out there.
15:02	Calinou	it's problematic: legality, security, maintainability
15:02	Calinou	and too centralized
15:04	Sketch2	Thy are already putting their trust into it by reporting that they are public
15:04	Sketch2	I don't see how storing a few files on the server is much different
15:05	Calinou	what if someone hosts objectionable media on their server?
15:05	Calinou	and uploads it to minetest.net?
15:06	Sketch2	I get what you're saying, but it's not like storing it does anything to the site
15:06	Sketch2	it's just a place to hold onto it
15:07	Sketch2	like a bank vault
15:07	Calinou	if it's not encrypted and minetest.net knows the key, they are legally liable
15:07	Sketch2	banks aren't affected by what's in their vaults
15:08	Sketch2	ok, well if that's the issue, encrypt it
15:08	Sketch2	it doesn't need to be anything fancy, just a simple password on a zip
15:09	Calinou	very easy to crack.
15:09	Sketch2	when the site registers as public, the owner provides a password
15:10	Calinou	it is pointless if minetest.net gets to know the encryption key anyway
15:10	Calinou	let's just forget about this, and stick with decentralized remote_media
15:10	Sketch2	we aren't talking about credit-card transactions, who really cares if they are opened
15:10	Calinou	we just need a damn tutorial to set it up
15:10	Calinou	it's nowhere documented!
15:10	Calinou	Sketch2, do you want celeron55 to go to jail?
15:10	Sketch2	I thought you'd like the idea
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15:14	Sketch2	There's a lot of kids who wouldn't know how to do it
15:15	Calinou	then we should provide helpers and documentation to host remote_media on their own server
15:15	Sketch2	especially what with tablets logging on nowadays
15:15	Calinou	not on minetest.net where we are liable for what they upload
15:15	Calinou	you can host a Web server on a mobile device, it's tricky but possible, and I wouldn't advise it
15:15	Calinou	you'd need port forwarding probably, and most ISPs don't allow forwarding port 80
15:16	xenkey	Mine did
15:16	Sketch2	no no, I'm not saying host it on a mobile device. I'm saying that users join in from mobile devices
15:16	Sketch2	it's tricky for them to download media caches
15:16	xenkey	I'd suggest using ssh -R (look it up)
15:16	xenkey	oh
15:16	xenkey	Like that uh
15:16	xenkey	Run nedia
15:16	xenkey	sorry
15:17	xenkey	Run media.sh and upload the files somewhere
15:17	Sketch2	that sounds right
15:17	xenkey	I think it's in sfan5's gist page
15:18	sfan5	https://gist.github.com/sfan5/6351560
15:18	Sketch2	yeah, it wouldn't need to be on minetest.net, if you're that worried about it
15:18	Sketch2	but maybe when the admin registers a page, there can be a dropbox link that it pulls from or something along those lines
15:21	Sketch2	ok, so yeah, glad the idea is being thought about. Sorry if I upset you Calinou. Just brainstorming.
15:21	Calinou	that's not proper documentation
15:21	Calinou	it doesn't document the whole process about dependencies, Web servers...
15:21	Calinou	and Windows support
15:21	Calinou	(which is secondary, but that we still should have)
15:22	sfan5	what is not proper documentation?
15:22	Calinou	something on the wiki would make sense
15:22	Calinou	I've never set up remote media successfully so I can't vouch for it
15:23	Sketch2	It would to people who are tech-savvy, but Minetest is a game, that goes to kids
15:23	Sketch2	kids have no idea how to do these things
15:26	Sketch2	I've got a 10 year-old that plays Minetest on his tablet. I wouldn't ask him to download a cache file and unzip it on his tablet for every server he tries.
15:27	Sketch2	I wouldn't ask you to, and you know how.
15:27	Sketch2	Because that's doing too much. You want to log in and play.
15:29	Sketch2	Just saying that the game servers could run faster if their media files were remotely cached.
15:29	Sketch2	It makes sense to me. If you like the idea, that's cool. If not, let's talk about it.
15:38	sfan5	uh
15:38	Calinou	Sketch2, you do realize people can host their own remote_media server, which can be used if the client supports cURL?
15:39	Calinou	we've had this since Q1 2013
15:39	Calinou	it's just a Web server
15:39	Calinou	akin to Web map download in Quake-likes
15:39	Sketch2	ok, so my point is: why isn't it automatic?
15:40	Sketch2	it's not something you can easily do on a tablet
15:40	sfan5	automatic?
15:40	sfan5	the clients don't need to do anything
15:40	Sketch2	that's why I bring it up
15:40	sfan5	all you need is a server host that has this set up
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15:44	Sketch2	ok, so as Calinou is saying, is this feature documented?
15:44	Calinou	not really, and that's what I'm complaining about
15:44	Sketch2	I don't remember reading about it.
15:44	Sketch2	ok, ty. Then we're on the same page.
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16:30	Wuzzy	Hybrid Dog just claimed you can dig almost every dig only by using a â€œmodified clientâ€ (haha, nice euphemism).
16:30	Wuzzy	you can dig almost every block*
16:30	Wuzzy	Is this true? Is the server really this dumb?
16:31	Sketch2	I believe it. free pizza server had people breaking blocks they shouldn't be able to
16:31	Sketch2	I stopped going there, because I thought it was a faulty mod, but that makes sense
16:31	Wuzzy	for instance ...?
16:31	Wuzzy	what blocks did they break?
16:32	Sketch2	I had a half a doz fridges full of cobble and an elevator set up by spawn
16:32	Sketch2	they broke 'em both, even though the fridges were full of cobble
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16:34	Wuzzy	I don't know those mods, it could also just be the mod is buggy and did not handle all corner cases; and the players simply found a loophole
16:34	Sketch2	I thought it was the lightsaber mod that was buggy
16:34	Wuzzy	what is the lightsaber?
16:34	Sketch2	because that's what the kid had that was chasing me, moments before my friges disappeared
16:35	Wuzzy	is it a â€œbreak everythingâ€ tool?
16:35	Sketch2	it's not supposed to
16:35	Wuzzy	what should it break?
16:36	Sketch2	stuff that normally breaks?
16:36	Wuzzy	sigh
16:36	Sketch2	lols
16:36	Wuzzy	This is not helping. I'm searching the mod for myselves.
16:36	Sketch2	I'm sorry. I didn't look at the source of it
16:37	Wuzzy	how is the mod called?
16:37	Wuzzy	or the item?
16:37	Wuzzy	just â€œlightsaberâ€?
16:37	Sketch2	most likely. I can look
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16:38	Sketch2	Laser sword [laser_mod]
16:39	Sketch2	well, I think that's it, but it must have been modded, because there was more than 1 color
16:42	Wuzzy	oh
16:42	Wuzzy	well, the original mod is very simple
16:42	Wuzzy	it just breaks crumbly, snappy and cracky
16:42	Wuzzy	so this mod clearly can't be the cause
16:42	sfan5	are you sure?
16:43	CWz	my house is now OS diverse. we got Windows, Linux and now PCBSD(freebsd based)
16:43	Wuzzy	yes, this is the entire source code: https://github.com/Roberto5/laser_mod/blob/master/init.lua
16:43	AnotherBrick	and couple of androids i guess?
16:43	Sketch2	I'm seeing another called starwars that has 3 color lightsabers. I'd have to check the server and bring up a list of mods to be certain.
16:43	Sketch2	1 moment please
16:46	Sketch2	it's called laser_mod on the server, so yeah, I'm guessing it's a fork
16:48	Sketch2	there's blue, green, red, & yellow there
16:48	Sketch2	crated with glass, dye, and mese crystal. if that helps
16:49	Sketch2	I don't know that it was that particular mod, I just know the kid chasing me had one.
16:50	Sketch2	As wuzzy said, if there's a client out there that's breaking breaking bricks, that coulda been it. I just hadn't thought of it as the time.
16:51	Sketch2	* at that time.
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17:02	Sketch2	they were in protected areas
17:05	Sketch2	I dunno, spawn is a mess over there. whoever is doing it is just blasting through protected blocks like it's nothing
17:06	Sketch2	well, the spawn pizza is ok, but the area right around it is a mess
17:07	Sketch2	so someone over there has some ability they shoudn't. admin pick or something like that
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17:40	* VanessaE	peeks in
17:40	Sketch2	hiya V :)
17:41	VanessaE	Calinou: actually were such a centralized server to be hosted in the US, the DMCA would at least guard against copyright claims ("Safe harbor" provision, under the assumption that the host remove files on receipt of a DMCA notice). Not at all good for "illegal" files though.
17:41	VanessaE	hey hey Sketch2, long time no see
17:43	Sketch2	Yeah, that sounds right. There could also be a waiver or something to that effect, that the contents are the responsibility of the owner, not the website.
17:45	Calinou	those waivers don't have an unlimited scope and effect
17:47	est31	I think its stupid to have a centralized media server
17:47	est31	I mean, why not run the whole server business centralized?
17:47	Sketch2	it doesn't have to be centralized, just the addy's
17:47	Sketch2	that's what the public list is for
17:48	est31	the public list is to give a list of servers, not to donate media download bandwidth
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17:48	Sketch2	well, even that doesn't have to be centralized
17:49	est31	it isnt
17:49	Sketch2	but I like the idea that the people can get the media before logging on
17:49	est31	you can set your own custom list url in the client
17:50	Sketch2	eh, it's so hard to talk in forums. I'm not saying the list doesn't have to be centralized. I'm saying the media-files don't have to be
17:50	Sketch2	they can be stored anywhere, so long as the client can automatically D/L them before connecting
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17:51	Sketch2	so the game server can concentrate on gaming performance
17:51	Sketch2	and the media server can just send media files
17:54	est31	Sketch2, you can do that already now
17:54	VanessaE	Calinou: in maptools, is there a block you can only pass through if you have interact?
17:54	est31	and I think VanessaE does it, ask her how to set it up
17:54	Calinou	VanessaE, nope, impossible
17:54	VanessaE	damn.
17:54	VanessaE	ok
17:55	Calinou	would require client-side modding I guess
17:55	VanessaE	est31: yeah, I have a remote_media server. it's not TOO complex, but it's more complicated than any noob is ever going to figure out
17:56	VanessaE	but then again I host everything on my own box, so I have to manage nginx, bind, etc. also
17:56	Sketch2	people keep telling me it's possible, but undocumented. maybe we could pass that info along
17:56	Calinou	I'd like to host remote_media
17:56	Calinou	for my hunger games
17:57	est31	somebody sould add it to some wiki page
18:00	VanessaE	step 1: establish a place to host the media. 2: establish a web server there to actually serve it. 3: copy all your jpg, png, obj, x etc files into the directory you're serving from. 4: put this in your server's config: remote_media = <url for that directory>
18:00	VanessaE	it's step 2 that's the hard part.
18:01	TBC_x	how are the media files distinguished anyways? path?
18:01	VanessaE	TBC_x: by filename, or you can use another method where they're distunguished by hash
18:02	TBC_x	so the client won't be downloading the universe when connecting to another server with similar mod set?
18:02	Calinou	don't you need to use collectstatic.sh?
18:03	Sketch2	As I understand it, that's right TBC_x
18:04	TBC_x	great
18:06	VanessaE	yes, so long as the files have the same hash from server to server, the client will just re-use what it has
18:06	VanessaE	Calinou: is that sfan5's index.mth script ?
18:06	sfan5	VanessaE: yes
18:07	VanessaE	this also needs added to wherever the process will be documented then.
18:07	sfan5	Calinou: what VanessaE describe is the deprecated way (not even sure whether it still works), it requires the client to download every file just to see whether they match and it should not be used anympre
18:07	sfan5	anymore*
18:08	VanessaE	sfan5: it still works fine, yes.
18:08	VanessaE	deprecated though it may be, it's possible to use that method without involving a script that no one can seem to find.
18:09	Sketch2	I agree, it's not deprecated until it's in the public that there's something better available
18:09	TBC_x	it needs more sophisticated resource loader IMHO
18:09	sfan5	why?
18:10	Sketch2	you have to let people know what the tools are so they can use 'em
18:10	sfan5	VanessaE: it was always on some page of https://gist.github.com/sfan5 i do agree that it needs to be documented in the wiki however
18:11	VanessaE	sfan5: that's just it, a noob will never think to look there :P
18:11	VanessaE	(among your gists I mean)
18:11	Sketch2	right. I've never heard of it, and I'm not a complete noob either
18:12	Sketch2	It's great that you make it, but people have to know it
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18:28	Sketch2	so collectstatic.sh basically does step 1 for you, and then creates a hash for the whole directory?
18:29	Sketch2	by "step 1" I mean, that it collects all the files into 1 directory, like VanessaE said.
18:29	VanessaE	well step 3 in my example.
18:29	VanessaE	step 1 means to get a shared hosting account or VPS or dedi or something
18:29	Sketch2	oh, sorry, yeah. I read that wrong. you're right
18:30	VanessaE	step 2 means to set up your web server and point it at a directory
18:30	Sketch2	I guess I'm just trying to figure out what sfan5's script does
18:30	sfan5	it collect all the media
18:31	sfan5	and renames it to the sha1 hash of the file contents in the process
18:31	Sketch2	so mth is a master hash table so that the client doesn't have to download the files, jsut look 'em up in there?
18:33	Sketch2	if they match, all is good, if not, THEN it'll download the updated file. Am I reading it right?
18:33	Calinou	can we document all methods please? and say which one is the most suitable for general use?
18:33	sfan5	the old method is deprecated
18:34	sfan5	not officially
18:34	Calinou	so we should use collectstatic?
18:34	sfan5	but it has a few drawbacks
18:34	Sketch2	I like sfan5's idea, if I'm reading it right
18:34	sfan5	which is why there is the new method
18:34	sfan5	Sketch2: it's not an idea, it's already implemented since probably a year now
18:34	sfan5	Calinou: yes
18:34	Sketch2	ok, it's just never been explained to me
18:35	sfan5	<Sketch2> if they match, all is good, if not, THEN it'll download the updated file. Am I reading it right?
18:35	sfan5	not exactly
18:35	sfan5	the server gives the client the sha1 hashes of media the client needs
18:35	sfan5	the client downloads index.mth which is a list of all media files on the remote media server
18:35	Calinou	https://gist.github.com/sfan5/9586533
18:36	Calinou	it would be nice to have this in Minetest core... ::
18:36	sfan5	then the client checks whether the media he needs is in index.mth, if yes he downloads it via http
18:36	Sketch2	right, that's how I read it.
18:36	VanessaE	indeed, if it's tried and tested, it needs to be included with minetest.
18:36	sfan5	if not he downloads it using the minetest protocol (which is slow)
18:36	sfan5	ofc the client does not do any of that for media files that are already in the local cache
18:37	Calinou	your collectstatic.sh does not cache .obj
18:37	sfan5	~/.minetest/cache
18:37	Calinou	or .md2, or .jpg
18:37	Calinou	which we all support
18:37	sfan5	Calinou: irrlicht supports waaay more formats but I'm going to add those you mentioned
18:38	sfan5	<Calinou> https://gist.github.com/sfan5/9586533 <Calinou> it would be nice to have this in Minetest core... ::
18:38	sfan5	ofc it would
18:38	Sketch2	this could speed up server load time quite a bit.
18:38	sfan5	but the coredevs would need to merge the patch then
18:38	Calinou	I'm generating index.mth for my hunger games server
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18:42	Calinou	sfan5, does remote_media line require a trailing slash?
18:42	Calinou	I'm putting one
18:42	sfan5	uh no idea
18:42	sfan5	it shouldn't require one
18:42	sfan5	but adding one cant hurt
18:43	Calinou	wow it works!
18:43	Calinou	so much faster to load
18:43	Calinou	thanks a lot for this script
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18:46	sfan5	Calinou: is obj or md2 even used by mods?
18:47	Calinou	.obj is used by moreblocks and slope_test
18:47	Calinou	md2 is used by Quake 2 nostalgics :)
18:47	Calinou	it is supported by Minetest's meshnode code
18:48	sfan5	is b3d used in any mods?
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18:49	Sketch2	I think blender files are in some mobs
18:49	sfan5	blender files are high-level stuff
18:49	Sketch2	I could be mistaken tho. maybe they are converted.
18:49	sfan5	irrlicht does not read blender files
18:49	sfan5	they need to be converted first
18:50	VanessaE	sfan5: no offense, but your script needs improvement
18:50	sfan5	ok
18:51	exio4	which script?
18:51	sfan5	https://gist.github.com/sfan5/6351560
18:51	Calinou	b3d is not blender files
18:51	Calinou	it's blitz3d
18:51	Sketch2	I realized that right after I typed it
18:52	Sketch2	sorry. I use blender, I should know better
18:52	VanessaE	not much though; you shouldn't hardcode the game and path, those should be taken from a commandline arg. And, you should write your files to a temp dir first and rsync them to the desired target.
18:52	sfan5	>you shouldn't hardcode the game and path
18:53	sfan5	sorry for forcing you to open an editor >.>
18:53	sfan5	also why should i use a temp dir first?
18:53	VanessaE	suddenly: multiple servers.
18:53	VanessaE	(with different game folders)
18:54	Sketch2	I agree that the path shouldn't be hardcoded if this were to be included.
18:54	VanessaE	and rsync to minimize the amount of time spent with differing or invalid files when you're doing some big update.
18:54	sfan5	invalid files?
18:54	VanessaE	i.e. if you'd normally rm -rf the target path and copy new files in, to about keeping duplicate old files around.
18:55	sfan5	also files won't change
18:55	VanessaE	sure they will
18:55	sfan5	no
18:55	VanessaE	files changes -> hash changes
18:55	sfan5	yeah
18:55	VanessaE	then you have old files laying around
18:55	sfan5	hash changes -> filename changes
18:55	VanessaE	yes
18:55	sfan5	the file contents will never change
18:55	sfan5	you'll have a new file
18:56	VanessaE	what about the old files?
18:56	sfan5	they stay
18:56	VanessaE	exactly.
18:56	sfan5	unless you remove them first
18:56	VanessaE	they're obsolete.
18:56	Calinou	maybe we can move to Python, so that the script is cross-platform
18:56	VanessaE	hence use rsync.
18:56	Calinou	(-:
18:56	sfan5	Calinou: file operations and such stuff are horrible in python
18:57	VanessaE	the script I use for this purpose takes care of that. it never leaves old files hanging around in in the target dir.
18:58	VanessaE	also speed. temp dir could be in /dev/shm or something, rsynced to the live dir in one quick blow. When you push ~50 MB of image data at a time, that DOES matter a bit.
18:59	sfan5	i don't see how this script can be a bottleneck for anything
18:59	sfan5	it's not like you need to do it once per startup or every n hours
19:00	VanessaE	actually, I run my upload-files script a few times a day.
19:00	VanessaE	on an active server, there's always someone needing a skin updated or something
19:03	VanessaE	(the same script calls my update-worldmods script, the one I use in lieu of yours)
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21:52	kaeza	Greetings
21:53	Sokomine	hi
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22:14	BoppreH	Hi guys
22:14	BoppreH	I think there's a problem with the dev wiki
22:14	BoppreH	Account creating errors out saying it's missing some hidden code, and changing pages asks me to select non-existent cat photos
22:15	BoppreH	Tried with both firefox and chrome, with and without extensions
22:15	BoppreH	More specifically, page edition says: "To help protect against automated edit spam, please select just the cat photos in the box below: [nothing]"
22:16	BoppreH	And account creation: "Incorrect or missing confirmation code. "
22:17	BoppreH	Both cases look like missing the authentication system. Web console says "asirraState is not defined" in some javascript.
22:19	est31	BoppreH, you have to ask here, people here have the power to give you accounts
22:19	est31	Try /msg Tesseract , he can create accounts
22:20	est31	with your mail address
22:25	BoppreH	thanks
22:26	BoppreH	Maybe the wiki should mention that?
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23:45	DN	Hello
23:45	DN	I'm looking for help with "Animals" mod, any1 familiar with it?
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23:49	blaaaaargh	DN, don't ask to ask, just ask.
23:50	DN	/mobf command rarely works. 2. When it works and I check the "Enable secondary spawing" I get an error msg "ACTION[main]: MOBF: failed to open world specific config file 17:23:17: ERROR[main]: MOBF: failed to swap old conf file to new one

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