| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
|
Enke joined #minetest |
| 00:03 |
* Jordach |
wonders how /clearobjects work |
| 00:04 |
|
DMackey joined #minetest |
| 00:08 |
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Warr1024 joined #minetest |
| 00:17 |
YvesLevier |
Jordach: Clients when logging get a warning about cart.png not in textures. |
| 00:17 |
YvesLevier |
Even holding shift - carts dont vanish |
| 00:17 |
YvesLevier |
im mystified |
| 00:20 |
|
Jordach joined #minetest |
| 00:22 |
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midnight joined #minetest |
| 00:35 |
Sokomine |
Jordach: depends :-) if it was your mapgen..... |
| 00:35 |
Jordach |
cram enough entities into a small enough space below the suspicious limit |
| 00:36 |
Jordach |
and it'll crash |
| 00:36 |
Jordach |
under OpenGL |
| 00:39 |
Sokomine |
quite possibly, yes |
| 00:40 |
Sokomine |
as far as falling entities go...i wish snow wouldn't destroy plants. i havn't found a way yet to prevent that. the falling from builtin removes plants. i'll probably have to copy and modify the code for my moresnow mod |
| 00:40 |
Sokomine |
right now, it does cause a cascade similar to what you observed if a snowball is dropped on the wheat fields around a snow-covered village. at least it's a relatively small 2d-area, so there's no danger of a crash |
| 00:41 |
Jordach |
Sokomine, ~4x~5x~10 area |
| 00:44 |
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| 00:48 |
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Yepoleb joined #minetest |
| 00:48 |
Pilcrow |
can falling nodes fall through "ignore"? because mine seem to be able to, but it may be some mod that makes them do that. all I know is that when sand or similar is updated while sitting on a chunk that hasn't been generated, it'll start to fall into the abyss.... :/ |
| 00:48 |
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| 00:50 |
Pilcrow |
^ I'm experimenting with programming some sort of quarry, in a world composed entirely of falling nodes. the whole world collapses when the quarry digs to the bottom of the loaded chunk... :P |
| 00:54 |
Warr1024 |
anyone want to test out PR #2579 and confirm that it fixes #2558, and doesn't introduce any new problems? |
| 00:55 |
Pilcrow |
I'll do it Warr1024. I've been waiting for a fix to that... :) |
| 00:56 |
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paramat joined #minetest |
| 00:56 |
Warr1024 |
thanks paramat |
| 00:57 |
Warr1024 |
er, thanks Pilcrow |
| 00:57 |
Warr1024 |
why does my tab completion suck? |
| 00:57 |
paramat |
you're welcome |
| 00:57 |
Pilcrow |
lol |
| 00:58 |
Warr1024 |
I'm also curious how the fix works with custom texture packs and skyboxes. |
| 00:58 |
Warr1024 |
Unfortunately, my system is pretty ultra-low-end, so I can't test a lot of the fancier things. |
| 00:59 |
Pilcrow |
yeah, I doubt I can test those things very well either; crappy little dual-core laptop (HP G-60)... :P |
| 01:00 |
Warr1024 |
I also managed to sneak in a slight improvement: wieldmeshes should now be based on low-res texture, but use the high-res texture. Before, it was all high-res, resulting in overcomplex meshes. |
| 01:00 |
paramat |
good grief, that voxel world size comparison article misses the importance of vertical height. i would rank a world size on it's smallest dimension not it's largest, which makes MT the second largest |
| 01:01 |
paramat |
blockstory mixes voxels with hi-res photorealism and therefore looks awful |
| 01:01 |
|
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| 01:02 |
Warr1024 |
frankly I never like to travel more than a few km in any direction from spawn, anyway |
| 01:02 |
Warr1024 |
might make more sense for a PvP free-for-all server, or one where people have WAY too much time to build huge... |
| 01:02 |
paramat |
too much horizontal dick-waving |
| 01:02 |
Warr1024 |
but for me, I could probably live happily within a 2km cube |
| 01:02 |
paramat |
MC's 256m vertical height is pathetic |
| 01:03 |
Pilcrow |
^ well, paramat, I think vertical space would be more important if there were more 'dimensions' generated, but you're one of the only modders that uses all that vertical space, so far... ;) |
| 01:03 |
Pilcrow |
(you and like 2 others) |
| 01:04 |
paramat |
MT's vetical height is why i'm here |
| 01:04 |
paramat |
(vertical) |
| 01:04 |
paramat |
that was number one consideration when i was choosing |
| 01:04 |
Warr1024 |
I did find MC's 128m vertical limit rather stifling; the 256m extension was an improvement, but they added 128m of air, not stone, so you still can't dig all that deep. |
| 01:05 |
Warr1024 |
paramat: what engines did you consider and reject due to the height thing? |
| 01:07 |
paramat |
erm i think it was MC MT and terasology |
| 01:08 |
paramat |
but lua modding was another decider |
| 01:08 |
Pilcrow |
Paramat, my number one consideration was the ease of modding. And then there's the fact that minetest is free, lol. The vertical height is a great plus, and could be awesome, I'm just saying we need more realms (parallel mapgens?) for it to really shine... :) |
| 01:09 |
paramat |
yes, that's been my mission here |
| 01:09 |
paramat |
=) |
| 01:10 |
Pilcrow |
Warr1024: my laptop's finally done compiling. testing now. |
| 01:11 |
Warr1024 |
awesome |
| 01:13 |
paramat |
ah looks like terasology has cubic chunks and 'infinite height' since Oct 2014 |
| 01:14 |
Pilcrow |
Warr1024: Seems to solve that problem just fine (tried with a completely clean minetest.conf, fyi). As long as it doesn't break anything else, this is a great fix~ :) |
| 01:15 |
Warr1024 |
thanks |
| 01:15 |
Warr1024 |
Pilcrow: if you can think of any curveballs to throw at it, like stuff that I might not have thought of, try to break it :-) |
| 01:17 |
Pilcrow |
well, I will try a higher-res texture pack at least. not sure where to get a custom skybox to test though, or I'd do that too. |
| 01:18 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, I saw the feature in there, but I don't know of any server or mod that uses it. |
| 01:20 |
Pilcrow |
I think there was an outer space skybox mod somewhere on the forums. heck if I can find it now though... :P |
| 01:27 |
Pilcrow |
looks like it causes no problems with HDX64 texture pack. http://i.imgur.com/xC6Epw2.png |
| 01:28 |
Pilcrow |
^ nothing wrong with player skins either. that's something so trivial I almost forgot to check... :D |
| 01:29 |
Pilcrow |
aha! Warr1024, I found Wuzzy's Galaxybox mod at https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?t=11173. trying that next. |
| 01:35 |
Pilcrow |
Warr1024: skyboxes seem to work fine as well. incidentally, this mod is really pretty... I may use it for something! http://i.imgur.com/LTCVuQd.png |
| 01:36 |
|
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| 01:40 |
Pilcrow |
irc is sleepy tonight... :P |
| 01:44 |
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| 01:47 |
Warr1024 |
Pilcrow: thanks for testing. You could probably add a comment with your test results to the github PR thread. It'd be good to have a few people independently verify that it works. |
| 01:48 |
Pilcrow |
ok, I'll do that. I'm a beginner at github; I keep forgetting you -can- leave comments... :P |
| 01:48 |
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Freejack joined #minetest |
| 01:53 |
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Taoki joined #minetest |
| 01:54 |
Pilcrow |
Warr1024: just curious, what prompted the original change to texture_min_size? I mean, I'm assuming it does something, but I can't figure out what... :P |
| 01:57 |
Warr1024 |
Pilcrow: you have to enable texture filters to see the effect |
| 01:57 |
Warr1024 |
a lot of people run with those disabled, since they tended to blur everything. |
| 01:57 |
Warr1024 |
but with this change, it helps with anti-aliasing within textures (for those of us with cheap vidcards). |
| 01:58 |
Warr1024 |
a lot of cheap video cards, like my Intel GMA, implement anisotropic filtering with an internal bilinear filter |
| 01:58 |
Warr1024 |
so we end up with blurring if we turn on ANYTHING other than JUST mipmaps. |
| 01:59 |
Pilcrow |
ah, ok. I think I still have an older build to check out; I should enable the texture filtering in both and compare! :) |
| 01:59 |
Warr1024 |
Yep, with texture_min_scale, you should be able to turn on all the trilinear+mip+aniso options and still see squarish pixels. |
| 01:59 |
Warr1024 |
I can run with texture_min_size=64 without issues, other people can often go higher. |
| 02:01 |
Pilcrow |
I have a reletively crappy video card as well, because it's old. Would I be able to see the difference with a GeForce 8200M? |
| 02:03 |
Warr1024 |
Pilcrow: try setting texture_min_size = 1 and enabling trilinear+mip+aniso with low-res textures. If everything looks blurry, then you should be able to crank up texture_min_size to reduce it. |
| 02:06 |
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rickmcfarley joined #minetest |
| 02:10 |
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enricom_ joined #minetest |
| 02:12 |
Pilcrow |
aha, now I see! incidentally, my shaders are working. the last time I tried using them, minetest said my video card was unsupported and wouldn't load the shaders. that was a long while ago, but I wonder what changed... waving nodes are working, as well as bump mapping... :D |
| 02:13 |
Warr1024 |
wow, awesome |
| 02:13 |
Warr1024 |
we need an FXAA shader. Any good shader programmers in here? |
| 02:13 |
Zeno` |
we need someone to debug shaders on Android as well... |
| 02:14 |
Pilcrow |
^ sorry, Zeno`, I'd help with that if I had <space> on my Shield, but it's full to the brim right now... :P |
| 02:16 |
Pilcrow |
not sure how much help I'd be anyway; no understanding of C/C++... |
| 02:16 |
Warr1024 |
man, it's just painful compiling MT for android from scratch... |
| 02:16 |
Zeno` |
http://dpaste.com/0RWX9Z9 |
| 02:16 |
Warr1024 |
Pilcrow: IIRC shaders are programmed in their own language... |
| 02:17 |
Warr1024 |
Zeno`: what are we looking at there? |
| 02:17 |
Warr1024 |
possible source of the shader issue? |
| 02:17 |
Zeno` |
Some others may be due to npot textures: http://dpaste.com/15XRZ9S |
| 02:17 |
Zeno` |
Warr1024, probably yeah |
| 02:17 |
Zeno` |
issues shown in logcat |
| 02:18 |
Zeno` |
I dunno what those storage ones are actually |
| 02:18 |
Warr1024 |
the apk apparently has to unpack the native stuff into separate files on storage |
| 02:18 |
Warr1024 |
i.e. it doesn't run out of the APK. |
| 02:19 |
Zeno` |
well ignore them |
| 02:19 |
Zeno` |
the others are probably at least related to the shaders not working though |
| 02:19 |
Zeno` |
(the others in the first post) |
| 02:19 |
Zeno` |
s/post/link |
| 02:19 |
Warr1024 |
texture handling is weird on android |
| 02:19 |
Warr1024 |
frankly I think a software RTT is the way to go to get rid of a lot of the issues we have with GUI's too. |
| 02:20 |
Warr1024 |
I had to enable inventory_image_hack, which got things working ok, though looking a little crappy |
| 02:20 |
Warr1024 |
since it does this weird non-aspect-preserved scaling of the mesh it renders |
| 02:20 |
Warr1024 |
no freakin' idea why |
| 02:21 |
Warr1024 |
haven't looked at kahrl's branch much yet, though. |
| 02:21 |
Zeno` |
hmm |
| 02:21 |
Warr1024 |
I was sort of thinking of just doing it with a cheap "reference" type renderer, i.e. performance-naive but correctly-working and reasonably accurate, for starters. |
| 02:21 |
Warr1024 |
RTT also tends to play non-nice with GUI Scaling. |
| 02:22 |
Warr1024 |
er, filtered GUI scaling, that is. |
| 02:23 |
Zeno` |
Pilcrow, you just need to delete all the other stuff on your shield :D |
| 02:23 |
Zeno` |
Warr1024, going back to shaders... have they ever worked? |
| 02:23 |
Zeno` |
I suppose that did otherwise the checkbox would have been removed |
| 02:24 |
Pilcrow |
^ Warr1024, is inventory_image_hack the one that basically turns off inventorycube in some devices where inventory textures just look like random garbage? I know that used to happen in the Nvidia Shield, too. Annoyed me quite badly... |
| 02:24 |
Zeno` |
(I'm talking about Android only of course) |
| 02:24 |
Warr1024 |
Zeno`: I've had them work for me on desktop, though I couldn't afford the perf cost. IIRC I've never seen them work on droid, though I might not have tried, since I barely get playable framerates as is... |
| 02:24 |
Warr1024 |
Pilcrow: inventory_image_hack renders the inventory cubes to the center of the screen and then uses a "screenshot" command to pluck the image back into the game. |
| 02:25 |
Warr1024 |
Oddly enough, when I DON'T have inventory_image_hack on, RTT kind of works, but still renders to the bottom-left corner of the screen. |
| 02:25 |
Warr1024 |
also, textures rendered via RTT can't be scraped back into images on my device, defeating gui_scaling_filter and ^[inventorycube. |
| 02:26 |
Warr1024 |
with software RTT, we wouldn't have to worry about a lot of RTT hacks we're using right now. |
| 02:26 |
Zeno` |
hmm |
| 02:26 |
Warr1024 |
We can even afford a moderately *slow* RTT, since textures are cached after rendering once. |
| 02:27 |
Pilcrow |
ah. like I said, it's been a while since I've used mt on droid. 0.4.10, actually. But yeah, I remember that textures were rendering as garbage, and we basically had to flatten them at the time, making them look panel-ish, rather than cubic. |
| 02:31 |
Warr1024 |
Man, I just wanna finish polishing up client-side visuals. Not even anything really fancy like shaders; just a little texture filtering. |
| 02:31 |
Warr1024 |
Just seems like, since I opened that can of worms, I've exposed a lot of issues. |
| 02:31 |
Warr1024 |
though, tbh, I've learned a lot about texture and image handling in MT. |
| 02:32 |
Pilcrow |
the thing that dissuaded me from mt in android was an incompatability with nvidia's button mapper; when my joystick was mapped to the middle of the screen, it would work for the most part, but randomly think I was tapping the corners, which would open menues or send my character spinning to look straight up, etc... |
| 02:32 |
Warr1024 |
oof, you've got one of those joysticks |
| 02:32 |
Warr1024 |
seems like there should be a simple way to filter those |
| 02:32 |
Warr1024 |
like the way a "despeckle" filter works on images |
| 02:33 |
Pilcrow |
the joystick works fine in _every_ other game though. just minetest where it has that problem... |
| 02:33 |
Warr1024 |
weird |
| 02:33 |
Warr1024 |
I've got a galaxy tab, myself. Touchscreen controls are usable enough, though my playstyle doesn't involve a lot of intense combat. |
| 02:34 |
Warr1024 |
it's a bit underpowered, though. |
| 02:34 |
Warr1024 |
I swear that the touchscreen stops responding when I'm running on battery, too, probably due to the massive CPU/GPU power drain... |
| 02:35 |
Pilcrow |
it would be nice if minetest supported controller mapping, itself. In fact, a lot of work has already been done in that direction, what with the remappable keys and mouse buttons... maybe someday... |
| 02:37 |
Warr1024 |
android build took me ~15.5 minutes |
| 02:37 |
Zeno` |
what are you using to build on? |
| 02:38 |
Warr1024 |
Core 2 Duo laptop |
| 02:38 |
Warr1024 |
oooh, I successfully applied scaling to the touchscreen controls... |
| 02:39 |
Warr1024 |
...but apparently scaled them to the wrong size :-/ |
| 02:39 |
Zeno` |
first build for me took a while (building all the libs and stuff) but now subsequent builds not so long... |
| 02:39 |
Pilcrow |
but yes, I've got the Shield Portable. Powerful little beast, but it has a terribly easy-to-smudge screen (so much so that I usually treat it as if it had no touch capabilities; I can't stand fingerprints, lol). If I could map the built-in controller to minetest, I'd probably use it more than my laptop! :D |
| 02:39 |
Zeno` |
You can install it with `adb install -r bin/Minetest-debug.apk` |
| 02:39 |
Zeno` |
make[1]: Leaving directory '/home/crobbins/minetest/build/android' |
| 02:39 |
Zeno` |
real 0m39.724s |
| 02:39 |
Zeno` |
40 seconds |
| 02:40 |
Zeno` |
(that was using time make -j8) |
| 02:40 |
Pilcrow |
j8? you have 8 cores?? wow... |
| 02:40 |
Zeno` |
yeah |
| 02:41 |
Warr1024 |
8 cores, or 8 threads? |
| 02:41 |
Zeno` |
well, 4 cores hyperthreaded (i7) |
| 02:41 |
Pilcrow |
ah |
| 02:41 |
Warr1024 |
ah |
| 02:41 |
Pilcrow |
lol |
| 02:42 |
Warr1024 |
hm, I think it's because I left scaling enabled, but the images were stretched to their NPOT2 sizes. |
| 02:42 |
Warr1024 |
btw, I've seen npot2 in the code, but what's it stand for? |
| 02:42 |
Warr1024 |
next power of two 2? |
| 02:43 |
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| 02:44 |
Pilcrow |
I've got an odd thought: does minetest work in a chromebook (without installing a different os)? |
| 02:45 |
Zeno` |
non power of two |
| 02:45 |
Zeno` |
or not power of two |
| 02:45 |
Zeno` |
one of the two :) |
| 02:45 |
Warr1024 |
well, what it returns is NEXT power of two. |
| 02:45 |
Zeno` |
really? |
| 02:45 |
Warr1024 |
but wouldn't that either be "npot" or "npo2"? |
| 02:45 |
Warr1024 |
not "npot2" |
| 02:46 |
Zeno` |
is it in minetest code? |
| 02:46 |
Zeno` |
if so it's probably a typo |
| 02:46 |
Warr1024 |
yeah |
| 02:46 |
Warr1024 |
it was all over client/tile.cpp |
| 02:46 |
Warr1024 |
I migrated the function itself into util/numeric |
| 02:46 |
Warr1024 |
er, not sure if that's been merged yet... |
| 02:47 |
Zeno` |
err |
| 02:47 |
Zeno` |
perhaps the comment tells you want it does :p |
| 02:48 |
Zeno` |
@param size get next npot2 value |
| 02:48 |
Zeno` |
in a strange kind of way |
| 02:48 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 02:48 |
Zeno` |
I'd personally name it next_npot() |
| 02:48 |
Zeno` |
grr |
| 02:48 |
Zeno` |
I'd personally name it next_pot() |
| 02:49 |
Zeno` |
oh, I hope you optimised that |
| 02:49 |
Zeno` |
I seem to recall you talking about it? |
| 02:49 |
Zeno` |
there are bit twiddling ways to do that that function does using a loop |
| 02:49 |
Zeno` |
what that* |
| 02:52 |
* Pilcrow |
is lost in all this dev-y talk, lol |
| 02:52 |
Zeno` |
Warr1024, yeah it was you, and you did do it using bit shifts the fast way... good :) |
| 02:52 |
Zeno` |
sorry Pilcrow... I forget which channel we're in sometimes |
| 02:53 |
kahrl |
there's an is_power_of_two too |
| 02:53 |
kahrl |
so maybe next_power_of_two |
| 02:56 |
Zeno` |
yeah, even better |
| 02:58 |
kahrl |
next_pot is something I'd expect in a tomb raider or zelda game ;) |
| 03:01 |
Zeno` |
it's not really next power of two either |
| 03:01 |
Zeno` |
it's more like ceil_power_of_two(floor_power_of_two(n)) |
| 03:01 |
Zeno` |
e.g. npot2(32) returns 32 |
| 03:03 |
Zeno` |
well, ceil_power_of_two(n) is what it is |
| 03:03 |
Zeno` |
ceil(32) is 32 *embarrassed* |
| 03:04 |
Zeno` |
next_power_of_two() would imply that n==32 would return 64 |
| 03:04 |
kahrl |
hmm, just tested it, wouldn't it be more like floor_power_of_two? |
| 03:05 |
Zeno` |
oh it's floor |
| 03:06 |
* Zeno` |
puts it in a loop |
| 03:07 |
Zeno` |
yeah it's floor |
| 03:07 |
kahrl |
http://web.mit.edu/rust-lang_v0.11/doc/std/num/fn.next_power_of_two.html |
| 03:08 |
kahrl |
they also call it next_power_of_two even though it leaves powers of two unchanged |
| 03:08 |
|
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| 03:08 |
Zeno` |
but this, as you noticed, isn't even next |
| 03:08 |
Zeno` |
http://codepad.org/KT8dgCXq |
| 03:09 |
kahrl |
of course |
| 03:10 |
* Zeno` |
looks for Warr1024's optimisation to make sure it's floorpot |
| 03:10 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 03:10 |
Zeno` |
floorpot... I like that |
| 03:10 |
kahrl |
:D |
| 03:16 |
Zeno` |
Warr1024, your optimisation is incorrect :( |
| 03:16 |
Zeno` |
in #2536 |
| 03:16 |
Zeno` |
you've implemented ceil_pot |
| 03:16 |
kahrl |
this is why stuff like this needs unit tests |
| 03:17 |
Zeno` |
of course |
| 03:17 |
Zeno` |
I think all util/ should have unit tests |
| 03:17 |
kahrl |
well, it was tile.h before |
| 03:17 |
Zeno` |
yeah I know |
| 03:17 |
Zeno` |
but he hasn't changed it in tile.h |
| 03:17 |
kahrl |
(I don't know why) |
| 03:18 |
Zeno` |
It's in a different PR |
| 03:18 |
Warr1024 |
Zeno`: wait, what optimization is incorrect? |
| 03:18 |
Zeno` |
npot2 |
| 03:18 |
Warr1024 |
how's it incorrect? |
| 03:19 |
Zeno` |
you've done it right, but the thing is the original npot2 is incorrectly named |
| 03:19 |
Zeno` |
scroll up |
| 03:19 |
Zeno` |
the original npot2 is actually floor_power_of_two() |
| 03:19 |
Zeno` |
whereas in #2536 you've implemented ceil_power_of_two() |
| 03:20 |
Warr1024 |
oh |
| 03:20 |
kahrl |
"@param size get next npot2 value" is also a pretty weird comment |
| 03:20 |
Warr1024 |
that doesn |
| 03:20 |
Warr1024 |
't necessarily mean the optimization is incorrect |
| 03:20 |
Warr1024 |
maybe I both optimized AND corrected the function |
| 03:20 |
Zeno` |
kahrl, and also incorrect |
| 03:20 |
kahrl |
yes |
| 03:20 |
Warr1024 |
presumably, you wouldn't want to scale DOWN... |
| 03:20 |
Zeno` |
Warr1024, maybe |
| 03:21 |
Warr1024 |
If you had a 15px texture and you scaled it up to 16px, you'd double one row of pixels. If you scaled it down, you'd have to throw away 7. |
| 03:21 |
Warr1024 |
2**ceil(log2(n)) is the only way that makes sense to me. |
| 03:22 |
Warr1024 |
even if I had to scale up from 33 to 64, I'd rather do that than throw away a potentially important detail to scale down to 32. |
| 03:23 |
Warr1024 |
technically, for the Npot2 thing with textures, we should offer the NNAA option. |
| 03:24 |
Warr1024 |
right now, it's doing plain NN scaling, and it'll ALWAYS be doing a non-integer scale. |
| 03:24 |
Warr1024 |
(that is, if the scaling kicks in at all) |
| 03:25 |
Warr1024 |
android incremental builds break if you have to kill the build partway through, or if a dep fails to build, btw. |
| 03:25 |
Warr1024 |
at least, last time I checked, unless it's had some major surgery in the meantime. |
| 03:26 |
kahrl |
intuitively I'd agree with you but there might be something weird about android that means it's better to scale down |
| 03:26 |
kahrl |
so I'll leave that to the android experts |
| 03:26 |
Warr1024 |
well, I'd guess that it might be to avoid hardware scalability issues |
| 03:27 |
Warr1024 |
but in that case, you'd think it'd choose to go either up or down, depending on what's closest... |
| 03:27 |
Warr1024 |
I sort of doubt that there are any real considerations for memory limits, though... |
| 03:28 |
Warr1024 |
considering both the wide difference in capabilities of devices, and the wide difference in texture size among some mods/servers |
| 03:28 |
kahrl |
I don't think it's memory, since how many textures are non-pot in a typical game? |
| 03:28 |
kahrl |
0, perhaps 1 |
| 03:28 |
Warr1024 |
no, I mean, memory could be one reason to scale down instead of up |
| 03:28 |
Warr1024 |
realistically there are probably very few mods that include non-po2 textures anyway |
| 03:29 |
Warr1024 |
if there ARE, though, I figure that any device ought to be able to handle scaling up instead of down... |
| 03:30 |
Warr1024 |
well, if there was a reason to use floor instead of ceiling, it certainly wasn't documented anywere. |
| 03:32 |
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| 03:32 |
Warr1024 |
everything seems to say "align to power of 2" but not WHICH power of 2. |
| 03:32 |
kahrl |
probably best to ask sapier if you really want the answer |
| 03:33 |
Warr1024 |
haven't seen sapier around. |
| 03:33 |
kahrl |
~seen sapier |
| 03:33 |
ShadowBot |
kahrl: I saw sapier in #minetest 36 weeks, 5 days, 7 hours, 10 minutes, and 16 seconds ago saying "does anyone know martin_devil? I'd like to know how he managed to run an arm version on a mips device ;-)" |
| 03:33 |
Warr1024 |
that doesn't sound too promising. |
| 03:34 |
kahrl |
oh well, perhaps change it to ceil and see if anybody complains |
| 03:37 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, that's sort of what I figure :-) |
| 03:37 |
Warr1024 |
if it turns out there IS a reason for a separate floor function, it won't be hard to make one. |
| 03:38 |
Warr1024 |
floorpo2(v) = (v & (v - 1)) ? ceilpo2(v) : (ceilpo2(v) >> 1), I guess. |
| 03:38 |
Warr1024 |
though I'm pretty sure that's not the best way |
| 03:40 |
Zeno` |
I just made a great one |
| 03:40 |
Zeno` |
using the copy pasta method |
| 03:41 |
Zeno` |
http://codepad.org/8sDBGHf6 |
| 03:41 |
Zeno` |
haha |
| 03:41 |
Warr1024 |
seems a bit complicated for the job |
| 03:42 |
Zeno` |
ref: graphics.stanford.edu/~seander/bithacks.html |
| 03:42 |
Zeno` |
well, do better :P |
| 03:42 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, that's where I stole mine |
| 03:42 |
Zeno` |
just add a unit test :) |
| 03:42 |
Warr1024 |
there's not a hell of a lot of difference between 12 instruction cycles and 8, let's say |
| 03:42 |
Warr1024 |
considering that cache misses or branch pred fails are going to dominate runtime anyway... |
| 03:43 |
Zeno` |
yeah it's a bit complicated because it's actually computing log base 2 (n) and then bit shifting for the result |
| 03:43 |
Zeno` |
so there is probably a better way |
| 03:43 |
Warr1024 |
if we were doing this once per pixel and couldn't cache output, hell yeah, optimize. Twice per texture that's going into a cache? meh :-) |
| 03:43 |
Zeno` |
yeah |
| 03:44 |
Warr1024 |
well, it's easy to check for is power of 2 |
| 03:44 |
Warr1024 |
and we already have a function for ceil power of 2 |
| 03:44 |
Zeno` |
yep |
| 03:44 |
Warr1024 |
floor power of 2 is ceilpowerof2 >> 1 if it's not already a power of 2, and same as ceil power of 2 if it is |
| 03:44 |
Warr1024 |
hence my hack |
| 03:44 |
Warr1024 |
which probably uses more instructions, but it's a bit more readable |
| 03:44 |
Zeno` |
the branch on ARM is (usually) executed anyway and certainly would be for your solution I'd say |
| 03:45 |
Warr1024 |
when you "optimize", there are a number of things you can optimize *for*, and sometimes readability is one of them... |
| 03:45 |
Zeno` |
I did add "haha*" to my comment btw :P |
| 03:45 |
Zeno` |
usually when I post code and add "haha" I mean (don't do this!) |
| 03:46 |
Warr1024 |
ah |
| 03:46 |
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| 03:46 |
Zeno` |
sorry, I need to be more serious |
| 03:46 |
Warr1024 |
didn't know if the "haha" was related to where you got the code from |
| 03:46 |
Warr1024 |
thought that was where I got mine :-) |
| 03:46 |
Zeno` |
but no, yours is of course fine |
| 03:47 |
Warr1024 |
I start to get wary whenever I see weird magic numbers and inline LUT's. |
| 03:47 |
Warr1024 |
Once, in an assembly language class, I took advantage of the sparse memory handling of the emulator running my program to optimize something using a 4GB sparse LUT. |
| 03:48 |
Warr1024 |
though the way they were measuring runtime was really naive: one "cycle" per executed instruction |
| 03:48 |
Zeno` |
have you ever seen my code to check if a number is odd or even? Where I used mutually recursive is_even() and is_odd() functions calling each other with n-1 ? |
| 03:48 |
Zeno` |
it's fantastic |
| 03:48 |
Zeno` |
also my leap year function |
| 03:48 |
Warr1024 |
oh, that's terrible :-) |
| 03:48 |
Zeno` |
another great innovation |
| 03:49 |
Warr1024 |
I don't even write functions to check a&1 or !(a&1) |
| 03:49 |
Warr1024 |
leap year I imagine is a little more non-trivial... |
| 03:49 |
Zeno` |
too obscure |
| 03:50 |
Zeno` |
mine mutually recursive solution was so obvious it was elegence supreme |
| 03:50 |
Warr1024 |
I'd hate to see you do fizzbuzz |
| 03:50 |
Zeno` |
still trying to find my leap year |
| 03:51 |
Zeno` |
found it |
| 03:51 |
Zeno` |
http://codepad.org/RbX19xzo |
| 03:51 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 03:51 |
Zeno` |
now THAT's optimisation |
| 03:52 |
Zeno` |
pity it's so slow |
| 03:52 |
Warr1024 |
I thought the Gregorian calendar was ratified in 1752? |
| 03:53 |
Warr1024 |
so any date before then is technically not valid input. |
| 03:53 |
Zeno` |
:/ |
| 03:54 |
Warr1024 |
heh, that's pretty funny, though |
| 03:54 |
Warr1024 |
you implemented modulo arithmetic naively :-) |
| 03:54 |
Zeno` |
of course |
| 03:54 |
Zeno` |
they're cogs |
| 03:54 |
Zeno` |
you cannot use modulo on cogs |
| 03:54 |
Warr1024 |
cogulo |
| 03:54 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 03:55 |
Warr1024 |
ok, I've got beautiful, anti-aliased android GUI buttons ... but all the textures are weirdly clipped. |
| 03:55 |
Zeno` |
anyway Gregorian calendar is valid from 1582 |
| 03:55 |
Warr1024 |
hm, maybe it's a po2 problem |
| 03:55 |
Zeno` |
err 1584 |
| 03:55 |
Warr1024 |
o rly? |
| 03:55 |
Zeno` |
yes |
| 03:55 |
Warr1024 |
hm, maybe I'm thinking of a SQL server bounds issue. |
| 03:55 |
Zeno` |
just because Britain and America didn't start using it until 1752 doesn't mean it wasn't valid before then |
| 03:56 |
Warr1024 |
hm, quite weird |
| 03:56 |
Warr1024 |
you'd think that it could just as easily be extrapolated far into the past, anyway |
| 03:56 |
Zeno` |
The cogs cannot lie! |
| 03:56 |
Warr1024 |
i.e. any error introduced by confusing a Gregorian and a Julian date is probably not much worse than the inaccuracies of the Julian calendar itself... |
| 03:57 |
Zeno` |
anyway, back to serious work |
| 03:57 |
Zeno` |
(boring) |
| 03:57 |
Warr1024 |
I bet I know the problem; the GUI buttons are probably centering the texture in the clip box, not upper-left-corner-ing it. |
| 03:57 |
Warr1024 |
what kind of serious work. MT, or day job? |
| 03:58 |
Zeno` |
I'm out of work atm :( |
| 03:58 |
Zeno` |
so MT |
| 03:58 |
Zeno` |
profiling atm |
| 04:07 |
Warr1024 |
aw friggin' yea |
| 04:07 |
Warr1024 |
completely anti-aliased Android GUI, including the buttons |
| 04:07 |
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| 04:18 |
Pilcrow |
Warr1024, your screenshots in https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/2536 look -so- nice! I want that... :) |
| 04:21 |
Warr1024 |
thanks! |
| 04:21 |
Warr1024 |
I've had a lot of detractors saying that it makes the images too blurry |
| 04:21 |
Warr1024 |
it's sort of a side effect of non-integer scaling to begin with |
| 04:22 |
Warr1024 |
but anyway, I'm adding it as an option, not a mandate |
| 04:23 |
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| 04:29 |
Pilcrow |
Warr1024, I wonder if there's a way to grow transparent areas slightly. If you could figure out a function that trims the edges of the NN-scaled texture and overlays it onto the AA one, you could get nice smooth edges without sacrificing detail (although there would still be random waviness within the texture)... I wonder if that would soothe the nay-sayers? :P |
| 04:29 |
Warr1024 |
Pilcrow: yeah, it sounds like the FXAA shader would get us something like that. It might be a good compromise solution for some people, though I think it's a separate issue. |
| 04:30 |
Warr1024 |
also, the anti-aliasing I'm doing also blends super-samples, if the original image is being downscaled |
| 04:30 |
Warr1024 |
if it's being downscaled by a LOT, a pure nearest scaler could potentially lose a lot of detail that I preserve |
| 04:30 |
Warr1024 |
so I'll probably continue to like my "accurate" method more than the "approximate" alternatives, for now... |
| 04:31 |
Warr1024 |
though I think NNAA should be an option, and FXAA should be an option, and both, and neither. |
| 04:31 |
Warr1024 |
though I could imagine some debate as to what the *default* settings should be... |
| 04:32 |
Warr1024 |
I wonder if we should decide things like that via poll...? |
| 04:33 |
Pilcrow |
good point about the downscaling. Isn't FXAA a hardware shader, though? If so, that's not so good for those who don't have support for it... |
| 04:34 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, it's a hardware shader, but it's supposed to be a pretty efficient one. |
| 04:34 |
Warr1024 |
my card supports shaders; I just turn them off because they're hella slow |
| 04:34 |
Warr1024 |
I'd have to see how fXAA works... |
| 04:34 |
Pilcrow |
lol |
| 04:34 |
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| 04:35 |
Warr1024 |
it only has to operate on the 2d plane of the screen, after all the 3d stuff has been "flattened" onto it |
| 04:35 |
Warr1024 |
so it might be fast |
| 04:35 |
Warr1024 |
time to hold my nose and regression test with this fancy stuff turned off :-) |
| 04:36 |
* Pilcrow |
doesn't know if I can enable fxaa in this Linux... I -think- I have the proprietary drivers, at least... |
| 04:37 |
Warr1024 |
I think it can be done in software |
| 04:37 |
Warr1024 |
i.e. it could be added to minetest independent of drivers |
| 04:37 |
Pilcrow |
yeah, just not sure how to do it with X configs alone; I think I'd need to use nVidia Control Center, and I don't think I have it in this old thing... |
| 04:37 |
Warr1024 |
I'd have filed a feature req for it, but I didn't want to become the "owner" of another issue :-) |
| 04:39 |
Warr1024 |
I was sort of hoping HybridDog would take the initiative to request it :-) |
| 04:40 |
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| 04:44 |
Pilcrow |
well. I actually do have a settings manager from nvidia, but there are no references to fxaa. all I have is an anti-aliasing slider that goes from 2x (2xMS) to 16x (8xMS, 8xCS). no other AA-related settings anywhere... :P |
| 04:45 |
Warr1024 |
man, you got some fancy hardware over there |
| 04:45 |
Warr1024 |
I don't think mine supports any AA. |
| 04:45 |
Warr1024 |
hence why all of my recent visual enhancement pr's have been software filters :-) |
| 04:47 |
Warr1024 |
I'm running irssi inside tmux and I keep getting my irssi "change window" hotkeys mixed up with my tmux ones. |
| 04:51 |
Pilcrow |
lol. Warr1024, yours is intel graphics, correct? Mine's and HP, about 8 years old, dual-core AMD Athalon CPU @2.1Ghz, but with nVidia GeForce 8200M graphics. Had to redo the thermal paste or I wouldn't be using it now, though; I've noticed *ALL* HPs in the last 10 years are sh*t for heat management... :P |
| 04:56 |
Pilcrow |
but I'm using a linux from like 2 years ago, not updated. 32-bit even though the laptop supports 64. the distro I put on this switched to 64-bit-only while I was ignoring this laptop due to heat issues. Finally took care of it and am using it again, but there's nothing to update officially since the 32-bit repos are gone, and I've got no more backup space to redo the os yet... Guess I'll have to suffer for now... :P |
| 04:59 |
Warr1024 |
buy one of those external HDD's |
| 05:02 |
Pilcrow |
I've got a 1TB, but it's full. I'm between jobs. I will definitely buy one as soon as I can afford it, though... :P |
| 05:04 |
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| 05:09 |
Pilcrow |
I wish I could figure out how to use both PRs #2579 and #2536 in my local build. I am so noob when it comes to using github... |
| 05:09 |
Warr1024 |
ha, I wrote a script that manages it for me |
| 05:09 |
Warr1024 |
I keep my history in branch whatever, and it auto-squashes my commits into pr_whatever |
| 05:10 |
Warr1024 |
so I can keep track of what I changed when and why |
| 05:10 |
Warr1024 |
and it also builds a "bleedingedge" branch with all of my PR's stacked together. |
| 05:10 |
Pilcrow |
lol, that's cool |
| 05:11 |
Warr1024 |
https://github.com/Warr1024/minetest/commits/bleedingedge |
| 05:12 |
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| 05:13 |
Pilcrow |
heh, you've piqued my curiosity; I'll try that... ;) But yeah, I signed up at github more than a year ago, but I've never actually used it for any of my projects, and have barely figured out how to do anything more than going back in time, commit-wise... :P |
| 05:14 |
Warr1024 |
I was more of a gitorious fan myself: free sotware hosting running on free software, instead of proprietary github. |
| 05:14 |
MinetestBot |
[git] kwolekr -> minetest/minetest: GenElementManager: Pass opaque handles to Lua and rename to ObjDefManager ed10005 http://git.io/jMzv (2015-03-31T01:11:51-04:00) |
| 05:14 |
Warr1024 |
but they've been swallowed up by gitlab now. |
| 05:14 |
Warr1024 |
so I guess I'm on that now |
| 05:15 |
Warr1024 |
but the nice thing about git is that you aren't stuck with one host. Every clone of a repo you make is more-or-less the complete project history, which you can sync with any other hosting provider... |
| 05:16 |
Warr1024 |
if you're used to a central system like CVS, SVN, TFS, or VSS, you have to unlearn all that stuff first, though. |
| 05:16 |
Pilcrow |
well, I've personally never used any version control systems, so it's -all- foreign to me |
| 05:17 |
Warr1024 |
I use them for EVERYTHING |
| 05:17 |
Warr1024 |
even things I probably should't |
| 05:18 |
Warr1024 |
for instance, what's the best way to take a nightly backup of a minetest server world? |
| 05:18 |
Pilcrow |
heh, learning git seems almost as time-consuming as learning a programming language, tbh... :P |
| 05:18 |
Warr1024 |
I'm using git, and that means I can do a git gc and do delta compression, keeping a full history, with some delta compression benefits. |
| 05:20 |
Pilcrow |
ah, didn't know there was delta support. I'd imagine modifying the existing files instead of downloading and overwriting them in whole saves a lot of time for nightlies... |
| 05:20 |
Pilcrow |
or is that not what you meant? |
| 05:21 |
Warr1024 |
it's not just that, but I want to keep a history going back all the way to the start of teh world. Doing each as an independent tarball, and not taking advantage of similarities across time, would make that space-prohibitive. |
| 05:21 |
Warr1024 |
my longest-running MC world, for instance, ran for about 4 years, with backups at least once a night. |
| 05:21 |
Warr1024 |
one of these days I might try to get around to doing a time-lapse project or something with it |
| 05:21 |
Warr1024 |
at least, I can go back in time for griefing repair and/or nostalgia, I guess. |
| 05:22 |
Pilcrow |
ah. now I get it. yeah, that's a great use of space, as long as no in-between files get corrupted... |
| 05:23 |
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| 05:23 |
Pilcrow |
do you make backups of the backups? B) |
| 05:23 |
Warr1024 |
if they do, I can use git bisect to find out the point at which they got corrupted and roll back to it |
| 05:23 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, git repos are naturally backed up if you clone them |
| 05:23 |
Pilcrow |
oh. useful |
| 05:23 |
Warr1024 |
so I push from my world backup into my git host, which gets fetched by my personal offsite machine |
| 05:24 |
Warr1024 |
you can configure git to validate the objects it pulls too, so each fetch checks the consistency of data it's receiving |
| 05:24 |
Warr1024 |
a commit ID is actually a cryptographic verification of the entire content of a commit, and its full history |
| 05:26 |
Pilcrow |
so like an md5/sha256 sum? |
| 05:28 |
Warr1024 |
sha1 to be specific |
| 05:28 |
Warr1024 |
a bit dated, but not completely broken yet |
| 05:28 |
Warr1024 |
as long as you use the long hash, not the short hash |
| 05:29 |
Warr1024 |
er, at least, if you NEED cryptographic verification |
| 05:29 |
Pilcrow |
I have no idea the differences between hash methods anyway, lol |
| 05:31 |
Warr1024 |
MD5 is badly broken, I can't even remember if it's OK in HMAC form. SHA1 is considered antiquated and people should be transitioning away. SHA2 (256, 512, et al) are the current "standard." |
| 05:32 |
Warr1024 |
I can't keep track of all the others, like Tiger, Whirlpool, RIPEMD, etc. |
| 05:33 |
Warr1024 |
argh, screwed up my build for like the 3rd time in a row |
| 05:33 |
Warr1024 |
switched branches with an unclean tree, forgot to wipe temp files, etc... |
| 05:34 |
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| 05:34 |
Pilcrow |
hmm. |
| 05:35 |
Warr1024 |
it's not a *real* sandbox game unless you can hack on the game source itself |
| 05:37 |
Pilcrow |
wow. as soon as I opened that nvidia control panel, my colors went all wacky... such color! so saturation! very doge! ... .... @_@ |
| 05:37 |
Warr1024 |
doge this. |
| 05:40 |
Pilcrow |
ok, I fixed it I think. gamma for each color was set to 1.2 and I dropped it to 1.0... |
| 05:43 |
Pilcrow |
anyone here familiar with KVirc? I've been using the webchat at freenode.net as I can't seem to get it working. I'm not very good with irc stuff... |
| 05:44 |
Pilcrow |
^ as in, I can't get KVirc to connect, so I've been using the webchat in my browser instead |
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| 05:53 |
Zeno` |
Warr1024, you have your world database in a git repository? |
| 05:53 |
Warr1024 |
Zeno`: yep. |
| 05:53 |
Warr1024 |
as long as you don't do a vacuum, sqlite databases will delta-compress okay. |
| 05:54 |
Warr1024 |
I don't think leveldb or redis would as well |
| 05:54 |
Warr1024 |
but leveldb is a lot less portable, and redis has zero security as implemented in MT, so those aren't really options for me. |
| 05:55 |
Pilcrow_ |
there should be a pure text option for world db! lol, kidding. :P |
| 05:56 |
Pilcrow_ |
can you imagine the entire world in a giant world.txt file? @_@ |
| 06:02 |
Warr1024 |
I'd actually kind of like the option for a very simple db with one file per mapblock... |
| 06:02 |
Warr1024 |
it'd be murder on a filesystem, but with a decent filesystem, it'd actually perform very well with git compression. |
| 06:03 |
Warr1024 |
that's assuming, of course, that we're doing safe writes. |
| 06:03 |
Warr1024 |
I'd really like the opposite, too, actually: to have the option to store ALL data in the same key/value store, instead of splitting it between a DB and the filesystem. |
| 06:05 |
Warr1024 |
ah, finally got this thing built and installed properly on android |
| 06:05 |
Warr1024 |
anti-aliased gui buttons look a LOT better than the old ones did... |
| 06:05 |
Pilcrow_ |
heh, you've been working on that for a while now... lots of problems, I take it? |
| 06:06 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, apparently on the device side |
| 06:06 |
Warr1024 |
also, looks like that jump button is actually a good bit lower res than the others; maybe a fresh texture is warranted? |
| 06:08 |
Pilcrow_ |
I was never a fan of that interface anyway. the arrows are arranged badly, and the jump button is just... odd-looking. |
| 06:10 |
Warr1024 |
I think it's supposed to be a trampoline :-) |
| 06:11 |
Warr1024 |
the one thing that bothers me is that the tap-and-drag for moving the viewport around is counter-intuitive if you're coming from a touchscreen background. |
| 06:12 |
Warr1024 |
i.e. you expect to drag your finger to the right across the scene, and move the *scene* to the right, i.e. turn your character to the left. |
| 06:13 |
Warr1024 |
ideally when you touch the screen and start a drag, it'd calculate the corresponding 3D vector, and rotate your view so that vector stays under your finger. |
| 06:13 |
Warr1024 |
subject to limits like pitch +/- 90 degress. |
| 06:14 |
Zeno` |
I dunno... my world |
| 06:14 |
Pilcrow_ |
it'd be nice to have more android customization capabilities. an option to invert drag direction, some kind of interface skin support... we could have button-texture packs! maybe also a way to move them around... :D |
| 06:14 |
Zeno` |
I dunno... my world's database if 14GB |
| 06:14 |
Zeno` |
is |
| 06:14 |
Zeno` |
grr I cannot type today |
| 06:14 |
Warr1024 |
Zeno`: yeah, that's beyond the ouch limit for git as far as I'm concerned |
| 06:14 |
Warr1024 |
the largest git repos I've worked with have been around 12GB, and gc'ing them gets to be a nightmare. |
| 06:15 |
Warr1024 |
I'd also like if we had tap-to-look on tablet. |
| 06:15 |
Warr1024 |
er, android, sry |
| 06:15 |
Warr1024 |
i.e. tap a sign to read its infotext |
| 06:15 |
Warr1024 |
we have "free touch target" but it doesn't actually work that way unless you either drag, start a dig, or "right-click" |
| 06:18 |
Pilcrow_ |
personally... I'd like to go the other way, against 'mobile' standards; I want a virtual trackball mouse or joystick in the bottom right corner and a virtual joystick instead of arrows in the left. to heck with dragging the whole screen... :P |
| 06:18 |
Warr1024 |
dragging the whole screen might be the only option on a small-screen phone |
| 06:19 |
Warr1024 |
it'd be nice to have a choice |
| 06:19 |
Warr1024 |
I mean, we have invert_mouse on desktop |
| 06:20 |
Pilcrow_ |
yeah, choices are always nice with non-trivial things like that. personally, I don't like the current situation as it forces you to obscure your view with your own hands... |
| 06:21 |
Warr1024 |
heh, accelerometer options? |
| 06:22 |
Pilcrow_ |
heh. I'm sure -someone- likes using the accelerometer...... but it's not me! :P |
| 06:23 |
Warr1024 |
I'm trying to think of how it'd even be feasible |
| 06:23 |
Warr1024 |
I guess you could sit in a swivel desk chair and use orientation for lookdir :-) |
| 06:24 |
Warr1024 |
it might be worth implementing just to see people look ridiculous trying to do it. |
| 06:24 |
Pilcrow_ |
tilt left/right to rotate screen, tilt forward/back to look up/down? haha |
| 06:25 |
Warr1024 |
it'd be a pain in the ass, though, if you want to change the "neutral" tilt, like if you're sitting in a recliner and want to lean back. |
| 06:25 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Zeno- -> minetest/minetest: Change format of screenshot names 862d4ea http://git.io/jMMn (2015-03-31T16:24:25+10:00) |
| 06:25 |
Zeno` |
you have a recliner? |
| 06:25 |
Warr1024 |
yes |
| 06:25 |
Zeno` |
man, you have it easy! In my day we sat on a wooden bench; and we liked it |
| 06:25 |
Warr1024 |
ha |
| 06:25 |
Warr1024 |
I've got one of those too |
| 06:25 |
Zeno` |
:) |
| 06:26 |
Warr1024 |
For me, the major benefit of the tablet is the ability to play while recumbent. |
| 06:26 |
Warr1024 |
too awkward with a laptop |
| 06:26 |
Zeno` |
depends |
| 06:26 |
Zeno` |
if your laptop is suspended from the ceiling it's not too bad |
| 06:27 |
Zeno` |
or you have a dentist chair with a nice sturdy arm/bench |
| 06:27 |
Pilcrow_ |
Warr1024, isn't using accelerometer controls -always- a pain in the ass? who needs a configurable neutral tilt anyways? B) haha |
| 06:27 |
Zeno` |
I suppose that'd look pretty dumb in your living room though |
| 06:28 |
Warr1024 |
Zeno`: it'd be pretty convenient if you need to have dental work done anyway, though. |
| 06:28 |
Zeno` |
true |
| 06:29 |
Pilcrow_ |
Zeno`, everyone fears the dentist; you'll never have company again if you have a dentist chair in the middle of your living room... :P |
| 06:30 |
Zeno` |
Pilcrow_, you make it sound as though that's a bad thing |
| 06:31 |
Pilcrow_ |
on the contrary; there'd be no one to think it looks dumb! :D |
| 06:40 |
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| 06:49 |
Pilcrow_ |
wow, Warr1024. that gui_scaling_filter makes first startup _much_ slower. once the textures have been cached, the next startup is fine, but on the first startup it took so long for minetest to open that I actually thought I froze my computer... @_@ |
| 06:49 |
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| 06:50 |
Warr1024 |
hm, that's a new one to me |
| 06:50 |
Warr1024 |
you using a high-res texture pack? |
| 06:50 |
hmmmm |
well, if it's really that problematic you *can* just disable it |
| 06:50 |
hmmmm |
:p |
| 06:51 |
Warr1024 |
oh, and are you using something like unified_inventory that'll force you to scale like a hundred different images at once when you first open the inventory? |
| 06:51 |
Warr1024 |
also, I could really only test using gcc on debian, so I don't know if there are compiler optimization differences. |
| 06:51 |
Pilcrow_ |
nope, default. took maybe 20 seconds for minetest to even appear. I was sat staring at the bin folder wondering if I should ctrl-alt-F1 and log into a fullscreen terminal to do a killall minetest... and then it finally popped up... |
| 06:51 |
LazyJ |
VanessaE, if you are up and about, the new towel rod mesh in HomeDecor creates a duplicate, brown image 3 blocks to the left. |
| 06:52 |
Warr1024 |
in my own testing, I've noticed it being just barely perceptible, if at all, on both my older desktop and my samsung galaxy tab |
| 06:52 |
Warr1024 |
oh, wait, I know what you're talking about |
| 06:52 |
Warr1024 |
you've got either a texture pack or some custom game that has a wallpaper |
| 06:52 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, at the moment, I'm scaling those too |
| 06:53 |
Warr1024 |
I suppose if it gets to be a problem, specifically, we can add an option to disable wallpaper scaling |
| 06:53 |
Pilcrow_ |
ahhh, that's it then. yep. my own custom game has a wallpaper at the moment. |
| 06:53 |
Warr1024 |
or if there are any hardcore image handling experts who want to take a crack at optimizing my code, it might be faster locking the image buffer inetad of using getpixel/setpixel... |
| 06:54 |
Warr1024 |
slow I did notice; 20 seconds I did not. I think I was using HDX-64 (the most my machine can handle) and it was maybe a second or 2 |
| 06:55 |
Pilcrow_ |
might it be possible to check the size of the image in pixels before performing the scaling? then if one if the dimentions exceeds, say, 512, don't use the scaling on it? |
| 06:56 |
Warr1024 |
I don't really want to add a magic number like 512 to the thing anywhere |
| 06:56 |
Warr1024 |
and wallpapers should be the only thing we should really have to worry about |
| 06:56 |
Warr1024 |
and possibly the title image |
| 06:57 |
Warr1024 |
also, ultra-high-res images were actually one of the things that people specifically wanted this for, from what I saw in the original Issue that led to this. |
| 06:57 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Warr1024 -> minetest/minetest: Move texture_min_size even further down the pipe. Now, textures are JIT-upscaled using an image transformation, right at the time they're added to a mesh or particle; images used in 2D elements are left unscaled. This should fix any remaining issues with HUD elements. db32e6c http://git.io/jMHo (2015-03-31T16:56:33+10:00) |
| 06:57 |
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| 06:57 |
Warr1024 |
nice |
| 06:58 |
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| 06:58 |
Pilcrow_ |
that seemed fast. the fix was good though. so I suppose it deserves a speedy merge. |
| 07:00 |
Warr1024 |
thanks |
| 07:00 |
Warr1024 |
should close #2558 too, then? |
| 07:01 |
Pilcrow_ |
yeah. do I need to do that myself, as I'm the one who opened it? |
| 07:01 |
Warr1024 |
oh, hm, I dunno |
| 07:02 |
Warr1024 |
either you or a contributer could probably do it? |
| 07:02 |
Pilcrow_ |
I think I can. I just hit the close issue button under the comments, right? |
| 07:03 |
Warr1024 |
sounds right to me. |
| 07:03 |
Pilcrow_ |
ok. looks like that's closed now. :) |
| 07:03 |
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| 07:05 |
Pilcrow_ |
abouth the magic number thing, you may be right, but I've seen a few people who've included screenshots in their mods. will this scale them too? |
| 07:10 |
Warr1024 |
it might, if they're used on a formspec |
| 07:11 |
Warr1024 |
to be clear, the change doesn't add/remove scaling, it just affects the precision with which scaling is done |
| 07:12 |
Pilcrow_ |
might need to add some kind of configurable 'magic number' to minetest.conf then, just as an option... :/ |
| 07:13 |
Warr1024 |
hm, ideally there'd be some way to pick a threshold based on number of pixels involved, which is roughly what I expect the runtime to be |
| 07:13 |
Pilcrow_ |
no, I know it doesn't add/remove scaling. I worded that badly is all. I meant will it be scaled with _your_ method... |
| 07:14 |
Warr1024 |
oh, wait, you're on 32-bit, aren't you? |
| 07:14 |
Pilcrow_ |
yes |
| 07:14 |
Warr1024 |
I keep forgetting how much of an impact that really has on performnce. |
| 07:14 |
Warr1024 |
the scaling is all done by the CPU, so 32-bit hurts in this area |
| 07:15 |
Warr1024 |
not only are 32-bit proc slower, but the compilers won't be keeping up with optimizations for them... |
| 07:15 |
Pilcrow_ |
oh? well I think my computer might've just been having a brain fart; I removed the cache folder, etc. and started minetest again. it loaded straight away, no 20-second delay... how odd. |
| 07:16 |
Pilcrow_ |
actually my cpu _is_ 64-bit, but my os is 32. no idea why I thought that was a good idea at the time.... I must've been dumb. :P |
| 07:16 |
Warr1024 |
hm, maybe your computer was busy with something else? |
| 07:16 |
Warr1024 |
I ran a 32-bit OS on 64-bit hardware once |
| 07:17 |
Warr1024 |
there was a time when a lot of software was not 64-bit clean |
| 07:17 |
Warr1024 |
a lot of things used to run more reliably on a 32-bit little-endian intel-compat processor, probably because that was the only thing it was tested on... |
| 07:17 |
Warr1024 |
I switched when I sensed that was no longer the case. |
| 07:18 |
Pilcrow_ |
ehrm, you're right; looks like my os was indexing the new files, lol. that would explain the slowdown... :/ |
| 07:19 |
Warr1024 |
argh indexing services |
| 07:19 |
MinetestBot |
[git] nerzhul -> minetest/minetest: Typo in getOutgoingSequenceNumber => successfull to successful 7c12172 http://git.io/jMFk (2015-03-31T09:18:11+02:00) |
| 07:20 |
Pilcrow_ |
yes, I know about those 32- vs 64-bit problems, but this was only installed a couple year ago; 64-bit software at the time was fine, for the most part... :P |
| 07:22 |
Pilcrow_ |
and yes, indexing services. this thing uses the old, slow nepomuk shit that came with earlier KDE4 builds... I really need a new backup drive so I can do an upgrade... @_@ |
| 07:22 |
Pilcrow_ |
anyways, it's 2am here and I need sleep |
| 07:22 |
Warr1024 |
yeah, I'ma check out too... |
| 07:23 |
Pilcrow_ |
nice talking with you, Warr1024. |
| 07:23 |
Warr1024 |
you too |
| 07:25 |
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| 07:32 |
MinetestBot |
[git] nerzhul -> minetest/minetest: RunCommandQueues: little optimization ab77bf9 http://git.io/jMN8 (2015-03-31T09:29:33+02:00) |
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| 08:32 |
JamesTait |
Good morning all; happy World Backup Day! :-D |
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MinetestBot |
[git] nerzhul -> minetest/minetest: Connection::Receive(): receive Network Packet instead of SharedBuffer<u8>. 1fe4256 http://git.io/jDRS (2015-03-31T11:01:08+02:00) |
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| 10:54 |
Zeno` |
yay |
| 10:54 |
Zeno` |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iNxpIhjLws |
| 10:54 |
Zeno` |
da river runs to you |
| 10:57 |
Zeno` |
through desert dust |
| 10:57 |
Zeno` |
and you still owe me something... more than this |
| 10:57 |
Zeno` |
say you're coming back :( |
| 10:57 |
Zeno` |
baby, love, wait for me |
| 10:58 |
Zeno` |
say you want me back |
| 10:58 |
xenkey |
no -.- |
| 10:59 |
* Zeno` |
bursts into tears |
| 10:59 |
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| 11:01 |
Zeno` |
waaaaaaaaah |
| 11:03 |
xenkey |
Im sorry :c |
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| 11:18 |
rubenwardy |
Hi all! |
| 11:21 |
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| 11:28 |
MinetestBot |
[git] Zeno- -> minetest/minetest: Fix use of unitialized variable in gettext.cpp d1d5618 http://git.io/jyTu (2015-03-31T21:26:34+10:00) |
| 11:30 |
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| 11:31 |
xenkey |
thx Zeno` :) |
| 11:33 |
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| 11:33 |
Zeno` |
:3 |
| 11:34 |
* Zeno` |
panics |
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| 12:12 |
proller |
rubenwardy, inventory fixed! |
| 12:12 |
proller |
it was missed merge from mt |
| 12:12 |
rubenwardy |
Yay! What was the problem? |
| 12:12 |
rubenwardy |
ah |
| 12:12 |
rubenwardy |
Kool |
| 12:19 |
Wuzzy |
Since Minetest the subgame is now called “Minetest Gameâ€, who will draw the new text logo? ;) |
| 12:20 |
rubenwardy |
minetest_game -> Minetest Game isn't much of a change |
| 12:23 |
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| 12:25 |
Wuzzy |
“minetest_game†was always a kinda unofficial name |
| 12:25 |
rubenwardy |
http://a.pomf.se/adnygw.png |
| 12:25 |
Wuzzy |
Also, the textlogo clearly says “MINETESTâ€, not “minetest_game†:P |
| 12:25 |
rubenwardy |
Isn't that the engine, though? |
| 12:25 |
Wuzzy |
What's your point? |
| 12:26 |
rubenwardy |
That screenshot was unrelated |
| 12:26 |
Wuzzy |
I am talking about Minetest the subgame, not Minetest the engine. |
| 12:27 |
Wuzzy |
the subgame has been renamed to “Minetest Game†→ https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/437 |
| 12:27 |
rubenwardy |
But the text logo is from the engine? |
| 12:28 |
Wuzzy |
I am talking about menu/header.png in the subgame folder |
| 12:28 |
rubenwardy |
oh |
| 12:28 |
Wuzzy |
I always thought that the name sharing of the subgame and the engine (same logo, same “official†name) was ugly |
| 12:29 |
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| 12:29 |
Wuzzy |
and I am happy that at least the devs have come to a conclusion to rename it |
| 12:32 |
Zeno` |
yep, we're close. It should be named "Creme Brulee" any day now |
| 12:33 |
Wuzzy |
o_O |
| 12:33 |
Wuzzy |
Where did you pick up THAT name? LOL |
| 12:33 |
Wuzzy |
This is the weirdest suggestion I head so far. |
| 12:34 |
Calinou |
let's call it “The Game Wuzzy Wanted To Rename†|
| 12:34 |
Zeno` |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Bbfrn400zs |
| 12:34 |
Calinou |
or “Go Develop Your Business Java/C# Application Elsewhere†if mgv7 is used |
| 12:34 |
Zeno` |
^--- Awesome |
| 12:34 |
Zeno` |
Vooooodoooooooo lady |
| 12:35 |
Zeno` |
you do, voo doo |
| 12:36 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 12:37 |
Zeno` |
hmm... no applause |
| 12:38 |
Zeno` |
when you do vooo dooo |
| 12:43 |
Zeno` |
<Zeno`> Vooooodoooooooo lady |
| 12:43 |
Zeno` |
oop |
| 12:43 |
Zeno` |
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOtpgz4L5d8 |
| 12:43 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 12:45 |
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| 12:50 |
Zeno` |
nobody "gets" my sense of humour :( |
| 12:50 |
* Zeno` |
cries again |
| 12:50 |
rubenwardy |
12 messages in a row... |
| 12:51 |
Calinou |
S A Y I N G M A C H I N E |
| 12:58 |
Zeno` |
lol |
| 12:58 |
Zeno` |
Calinou, what's the real problem with Coverity? |
| 12:59 |
rubenwardy |
!g coverity |
| 12:59 |
MinetestBot |
rubenwardy: https://www.coverity.com/ |
| 12:59 |
Calinou |
didn't I highlight it enough? |
| 12:59 |
Calinou |
maybe I can edit my post and surround it with ** |
| 12:59 |
Zeno` |
Calinou, not really |
| 12:59 |
Zeno` |
what is the problem with it being proprietary but free to use with open source? |
| 13:00 |
Calinou |
it's the same problem as GitHub, Transifex, Slack and so many other random startups |
| 13:00 |
Calinou |
it's hiring people to work gratis for them |
| 13:00 |
Zeno` |
minetest lately has not been very open source (free software) friendly either |
| 13:00 |
Calinou |
we have |
| 13:00 |
Calinou |
with a few exceptions sadly (MMDB) |
| 13:00 |
Zeno` |
ummm, no |
| 13:00 |
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| 13:01 |
Calinou |
sending DMCAs isn't anything wrong |
| 13:01 |
Zeno` |
minetest doesn't appear to like forks |
| 13:01 |
Zeno` |
that is not in the spirit of free software |
| 13:01 |
Calinou |
I'm fine with forks, it's not my problem if random developers dislike them |
| 13:02 |
Zeno` |
there is nothing wrong with VALID dmca's you mean |
| 13:02 |
Zeno` |
but anyway, we're not allowed to use proprietary tools? |
| 13:02 |
rubenwardy |
Use proprietary tools for yourself, but don't force others to |
| 13:03 |
Zeno` |
it's not being forced on anyone |
| 13:03 |
Calinou |
it's ethically wrong |
| 13:03 |
rubenwardy |
Use MS Visual Studio or Coverity if you want to |
| 13:03 |
Calinou |
you're using secret algorithms |
| 13:03 |
Zeno` |
huh |
| 13:03 |
Calinou |
(also, most projects using Coverity end up being obsessed with it.) |
| 13:03 |
Calinou |
(it's a waste of time) |
| 13:04 |
Zeno` |
most, if not all, static analysis tools are a waste of time |
| 13:04 |
rubenwardy |
Calinou, it does not take any licensing away from Minetest, and you don't have to use it |
| 13:04 |
Zeno` |
doesn't mean they shouldn't be used |
| 13:04 |
Zeno` |
github is unethical? |
| 13:04 |
Calinou |
yep |
| 13:04 |
Zeno` |
err... |
| 13:04 |
Calinou |
TPW is a troll |
| 13:04 |
Zeno` |
why? |
| 13:05 |
Zeno` |
I mean why is github not ethical |
| 13:05 |
Calinou |
proprietary back-end, shitty staff, … |
| 13:05 |
Calinou |
it perfectly deserves being called ShitHub :) |
| 13:05 |
Zeno` |
I don't see what that has to do with ethics :/ |
| 13:06 |
Zeno` |
How could github change to make itself "ethical"? |
| 13:06 |
rubenwardy |
I don't see closed source as unethical |
| 13:06 |
Calinou |
release their back-end, let people self-host |
| 13:06 |
Calinou |
it's as simple as that |
| 13:06 |
Zeno` |
How would they make money? |
| 13:06 |
* Calinou |
facehooves |
| 13:06 |
Calinou |
1. free software doesn't mean you don't make money |
| 13:07 |
Calinou |
2. developers should lower their expectations of income |
| 13:07 |
Calinou |
3. GitHub is not profitable as it is right now |
| 13:07 |
Zeno` |
Who would pay for github's hosting? |
| 13:07 |
Calinou |
people who can't be arsed to host it themselves |
| 13:07 |
Zeno` |
err... |
| 13:07 |
Zeno` |
and who will support those people? |
| 13:08 |
Calinou |
employees? |
| 13:08 |
Zeno` |
how do you pay the employees? |
| 13:08 |
Calinou |
by selling support contracts? |
| 13:08 |
Calinou |
for self-hosted or official instance |
| 13:08 |
Zeno` |
which is basically what github does |
| 13:08 |
Calinou |
no, they currently sell private repos |
| 13:08 |
Calinou |
not the same thing ;) |
| 13:08 |
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| 13:09 |
Calinou |
[by the way, I believe a good GitHub replacement would be a non-profit, but that's another story] |
| 13:09 |
Zeno` |
so private repos are the thing that's wrong? |
| 13:09 |
Calinou |
no |
| 13:09 |
Zeno` |
yeah and that alternative went broke, right? |
| 13:09 |
Calinou |
Gitorious was a for-profit |
| 13:09 |
Calinou |
a bad one |
| 13:09 |
Zeno` |
that went broke |
| 13:10 |
Karlton |
Zeno`: There are already free software projects including games that are commercial, so it is pointless to argue the notion that you can't make money with freesoftware. |
| 13:10 |
Zeno` |
Karlton, I am not arguing that... Calinou is |
| 13:10 |
Zeno` |
I suggest that it's perfectly fine to make money from free software |
| 13:10 |
rubenwardy |
You make less money though. |
| 13:11 |
Zeno` |
there are bills to pay, infrastructure to pay for, employees to hire, etc, etc, etc |
| 13:11 |
Calinou |
I won't tell people lies by telling them they can make more money, that's for sure |
| 13:11 |
Calinou |
learn to live with less money :P |
| 13:12 |
Zeno` |
I just don't *get* this obsession with being angry at people making money who then provide us things for free |
| 13:13 |
rubenwardy |
Companies need money to survive, more money the better |
| 13:13 |
Zeno` |
rubenwardy, exactly |
| 13:13 |
Calinou |
more money doesn't mean life will be better |
| 13:13 |
Calinou |
nor that companies will survive better |
| 13:13 |
Zeno` |
and if they let us use the product for free, even bettter |
| 13:13 |
Calinou |
(because they can spend even more than what they earned, thus ruining the whole thing) |
| 13:13 |
Calinou |
companies letting us use something for free is often a trap |
| 13:13 |
Calinou |
(when it isn't, it means the company has no business model, so let's profit from that) |
| 13:14 |
rubenwardy |
Calinou, sounds like you have more of a problem with capitalism than with closed source |
| 13:14 |
Calinou |
capitalism isn't my problem |
| 13:14 |
Calinou |
[that said, it doesn't mean capitalism doesn't have excesses in it] |
| 13:18 |
Zeno` |
:/ |
| 13:18 |
Zeno` |
so github is not allowed to make money to improve their site |
| 13:18 |
Zeno` |
makes sense (NOT) |
| 13:19 |
Calinou |
they are allowed to |
| 13:19 |
Calinou |
a license that disallows commercial usage isn't free |
| 13:19 |
Zeno` |
what license is that? |
| 13:19 |
Calinou |
CC BY-NC-SA is the most prominent example of that |
| 13:19 |
Calinou |
(but it isn't a software license) |
| 13:19 |
Zeno` |
yes |
| 13:20 |
Zeno` |
GPL isn't free either |
| 13:20 |
Calinou |
it is |
| 13:20 |
Calinou |
anyone saying otherwise is engaging in political revisionism |
| 13:20 |
Calinou |
no less than that |
| 13:20 |
Zeno` |
no it's not because it doesn't allow me the freedom to make changes and not release the changes |
| 13:20 |
Zeno` |
that's not freedom |
| 13:20 |
Calinou |
1. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list#GNUGPL |
| 13:20 |
Calinou |
2. http://opensource.org/licenses/gpl-license |
| 13:21 |
Zeno` |
BSD is probably the only really free license |
| 13:21 |
Zeno` |
(and ones similar) |
| 13:21 |
Calinou |
BSD is crap, better use MIT/Expat or Apache 2. |
| 13:21 |
Calinou |
(it's confusing) |
| 13:21 |
Karlton |
Zeno`: You can make all the chagnes you want without releasing them |
| 13:21 |
Calinou |
also, yes, that's an huge GPL misunderstanding |
| 13:21 |
Calinou |
I didn't see it |
| 13:21 |
Karlton |
you just can't share them without releasing the code |
| 13:22 |
Zeno` |
Karlton, I know |
| 13:22 |
Calinou |
people making such a misunderstanding should not be allowed to complain about it |
| 13:22 |
Calinou |
read the whole text of the GPL then complain. |
| 13:22 |
Calinou |
it takes about 20 minutes |
| 13:22 |
Zeno` |
Karlton, so long as you don't give other people the binary :P |
| 13:22 |
Zeno` |
once you do that your freedom is lost |
| 13:22 |
Calinou |
the GPL isn't about sharing changes, it's about passing on freedoms |
| 13:23 |
Zeno` |
Calinou, not really because it doesn't give me the freedom to make changes, distribute that, and not make the changes in the source code available upon request |
| 13:24 |
Zeno` |
I don't mind the GPL btw |
| 13:24 |
Zeno` |
I'm just saying that it's not truly "freedom" |
| 13:24 |
Zeno` |
But avoiding software that allows us to use it for free/gratis is just dumb |
| 13:25 |
Zeno` |
Let them make their money; no skin off my back. We can use it, so who cares? |
| 13:25 |
Karlton |
The unethical freedoms we don't care about, much like the freedom to murder or rob someone |
| 13:26 |
Calinou |
freedom and anarchy are very different concepts |
| 13:26 |
Karlton |
basicly not having the freedom to take away freedom is a good thing |
| 13:26 |
Zeno` |
Karlton, I don't think you can compare murder to using proprietary software to help develop an open source project |
| 13:27 |
rubenwardy |
I use proprietary software because it works better than the FLOSS alternatives |
| 13:27 |
rubenwardy |
Simple as |
| 13:27 |
Karlton |
Zeno`: both are unethical, but clearly not on the same level |
| 13:27 |
Zeno` |
God forbis if one of our devs uses Windows as their platform; should we ban their PRs? |
| 13:27 |
Calinou |
it's their own computing, not ours |
| 13:27 |
rubenwardy |
Exactly |
| 13:28 |
Zeno` |
So we should not use github |
| 13:28 |
Zeno` |
what's the alternative? |
| 13:29 |
Calinou |
self-hosting Gogs/GitBucket/Kallithea/… |
| 13:29 |
Zeno` |
Personally I think github is fine |
| 13:30 |
Calinou |
or using NotABug (Gogs instance) |
| 13:30 |
Calinou |
or using git.framasoft.org (GitLab CE instance) |
| 13:30 |
rubenwardy |
NotABug does not allow PRs |
| 13:30 |
Zeno` |
yeah and they will go out of business soon enough |
| 13:30 |
Calinou |
yes, will be eventually fixed |
| 13:30 |
Calinou |
NAB is a non-profit, so is git.framasoft.org |
| 13:30 |
Calinou |
they can't go out of business |
| 13:30 |
Zeno` |
just like your precious gitorius |
| 13:31 |
rubenwardy |
Yes they can go out of business, through lack of funding (see Mediacru.sh) or owners giving up |
| 13:31 |
Zeno` |
SOMEONE has to pay for the infrastructure |
| 13:31 |
Jordach |
hey |
| 13:31 |
Jordach |
my own server is non-profit |
| 13:31 |
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| 13:31 |
Jordach |
i pay for it out of my own pocket ;P |
| 13:31 |
Calinou |
then self-host, if you don't trust them |
| 13:32 |
Calinou |
lots of projects do this already |
| 13:32 |
Zeno` |
Calinou, but... who pays for self-hosting? |
| 13:32 |
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| 13:32 |
xenkey |
You, the host |
| 13:32 |
xenkey |
s/,/+/g |
| 13:32 |
Zeno` |
so it's not free |
| 13:32 |
Calinou |
we already do |
| 13:32 |
Calinou |
it's not free as in price, but it's free as in freedom |
| 13:33 |
Zeno` |
it's not free as in freedom because I can stop hosting any time I want |
| 13:33 |
Zeno` |
you are bound to me |
| 13:33 |
Calinou |
… |
| 13:33 |
Zeno` |
(I am using me as an example) |
| 13:33 |
Calinou |
please don't abusively stretch stuff like that |
| 13:33 |
Zeno` |
(e.g. if I hosted the project) |
| 13:34 |
Zeno` |
it's not stretching |
| 13:34 |
Zeno` |
someone has to pay |
| 13:34 |
Karlton |
http://savannah.gnu.org/ is basicly a free version of github |
| 13:34 |
Calinou |
Karlton, manual approval sucks, and the interface sucks |
| 13:34 |
Calinou |
no one wants that in 2015 |
| 13:34 |
Calinou |
it can't be called a free version of GitHub |
| 13:35 |
Zeno` |
I think it's best just to let github keep paying |
| 13:35 |
Zeno` |
and they can raise funds to support the free hosting however they like |
| 13:35 |
Calinou |
they already raise funds through private risk stuff |
| 13:35 |
Calinou |
they're barely profitable, as said before :P |
| 13:35 |
Calinou |
they too can go down |
| 13:35 |
Zeno` |
of course |
| 13:35 |
nrzkt |
you can use gitlab instead of github |
| 13:36 |
Zeno` |
but they're not doing anything ethically wrong by allowing private repos |
| 13:36 |
srifqi |
where should I ask about modding-related? |
| 13:36 |
Zeno` |
gitlab costs money to host a project doesn't it? |
| 13:36 |
nrzkt |
no |
| 13:36 |
Calinou |
nrzkt, GitLab is partially proprietary due to the proprietary Enterprise Edition; I wouldn't recommend it |
| 13:36 |
Calinou |
gitlab.com runs the EE |
| 13:36 |
nrzkt |
you can host your instance |
| 13:36 |
Calinou |
thus, it can't be recommended |
| 13:36 |
Calinou |
host your own CE instance instead |
| 13:36 |
Calinou |
or use git.framasoft.org |
| 13:36 |
nrzkt |
my enterprise uses gitlab for its own problems |
| 13:36 |
Calinou |
which is basically the same thing |
| 13:36 |
Calinou |
it even lets you use private repos |
| 13:36 |
nrzkt |
projects* |
| 13:37 |
nrzkt |
git.framasoft.org is a gitlab |
| 13:37 |
rubenwardy |
srifqi, come to #minetest-mods, you walked into a flamewar |
| 13:37 |
Calinou |
*successful troll* |
| 13:38 |
nrzkt |
gitlab is a pure shit ruby build which is not a good open source project because of their build which doesn't run well on many systems :p |
| 13:38 |
Zeno` |
next people will be telling me not to use google because they make money from ads :/ |
| 13:39 |
rom1504 |
Zeno`: that's what framasoft is saying (see up there) |
| 13:39 |
Zeno` |
Calinou, do you use google? |
| 13:39 |
Karlton |
Zeno`: nobody cares about making money |
| 13:39 |
Jordach |
Calinou uses duckduckgo |
| 13:39 |
Zeno` |
Karlton, I know! |
| 13:39 |
Zeno` |
Karlton, you are missing my point! |
| 13:39 |
rom1504 |
gitlab is more ethical than github, maybe it's not perfect but still, it's better |
| 13:40 |
Zeno` |
just because a company makes money does not mean we should avoid them on some questionable ethical ground |
| 13:40 |
rubenwardy |
I used duckduckgo for a month, the only useful thing are the bangs like !yt search term. The actual search engine isn't as good as google |
| 13:40 |
Karlton |
Zeno`: Who is saying that? |
| 13:40 |
Zeno` |
I don't care if google make a billion $ a day; I will keep using them because their service to me is free |
| 13:41 |
Zeno` |
(free as in gratis) |
| 13:41 |
Calinou |
then you are not a free software supporter |
| 13:41 |
Zeno` |
Calinou, and neither are you |
| 13:41 |
zero-ghost |
its not free |
| 13:41 |
zero-ghost |
you are the product |
| 13:41 |
Calinou |
I happen to be one |
| 13:41 |
zero-ghost |
the money comes from selling you |
| 13:41 |
Zeno` |
zero-ghost, I understand that |
| 13:41 |
rom1504 |
(but afaik gitlab hasn't solve some problems : how to I make a merge request on gitlab using my account on an other gitlab, or using github) |
| 13:42 |
srifqi |
Zeno`: what language is "gratis"? |
| 13:42 |
srifqi |
Netherlands? |
| 13:42 |
Zeno` |
but avoiding using tools just because the owners of the tools might make money is DUMB |
| 13:42 |
zero-ghost |
thats not why people avoid things like google |
| 13:42 |
Zeno` |
did you know that the FSF makes... *gasp* money? |
| 13:42 |
zero-ghost |
its HOW they make that money |
| 13:42 |
zero-ghost |
and how evil those actions are |
| 13:43 |
nrzkt |
rom1504 gitlab should use a system like a federation to manage the PR and the authentication ? like owncloud for example or XMPP |
| 13:43 |
Calinou |
the FSF does make fundraisers, but they're a non-profit |
| 13:43 |
Karlton |
Google openly spies on them, I avoid all their products even their free stuff. |
| 13:43 |
Zeno` |
the FSF even accepts donations |
| 13:43 |
Calinou |
they create ethical jobs, where employees use free software only |
| 13:43 |
Calinou |
accepting donations is fine |
| 13:43 |
Calinou |
selling stuff is, too |
| 13:43 |
Calinou |
srifqi, gratis is Spanish |
| 13:43 |
zero-ghost |
i love giving my money to people who deserve it |
| 13:43 |
Calinou |
so is libre (but libre also is French) |
| 13:43 |
zero-ghost |
google doesnt deserve any money they might make off of my existence |
| 13:43 |
Zeno` |
anyone can declare their company as non-profit |
| 13:44 |
Calinou |
calling the FSF evil is inconsistent when you think Google is fine |
| 13:44 |
srifqi |
Calinou: oh, because it is also means "free" in Indonesian |
| 13:44 |
Zeno` |
I didn't call them evil |
| 13:44 |
Zeno` |
I said they make money |
| 13:44 |
zero-ghost |
comparing the FSF to google |
| 13:44 |
Karlton |
Zeno`: the issue isn't money, it is how you make it |
| 13:44 |
zero-ghost |
you might as well have said something equally as insane |
| 13:44 |
rubenwardy |
Hate me, but I'd love to work at Google. |
| 13:45 |
zero-ghost |
watch i can play twist-the-logic game awesomely |
| 13:45 |
Zeno` |
Karlton, and offering people developing open source projects to use your product for free is wrong? |
| 13:45 |
zero-ghost |
your wife is a whore cause all girls cost money |
| 13:45 |
zero-ghost |
boom |
| 13:46 |
rubenwardy |
For me, open source etc is about sharing and collaborating, and hacking your software to make it fit your purposes |
| 13:46 |
Karlton |
Zeno`: Only if it encourages the unethical practice |
| 13:47 |
Zeno` |
Karlton, using a static analysis tool won't encourage anything (the output from nearly all of those tools is next to useless anyway) |
| 13:49 |
Zeno` |
llvm and gcc cover almost all situations already |
| 13:49 |
Zeno` |
but we probably shouldn't use llvm |
| 13:50 |
Zeno` |
i.e. clang |
| 13:50 |
Zeno` |
it's apple and evil |
| 13:50 |
nrzkt |
clang is BSD licenced, it's good :D and it's not only apple, hopefully. GPL bleuarg :D |
| 13:51 |
Karlton |
Only issue I have with clang is that you can make it ship with non-free addons |
| 13:52 |
Zeno` |
nrzkt, but apple pays employees to work on it |
| 13:52 |
Zeno` |
and IBM |
| 13:52 |
Zeno` |
surely it cannot be ethical to use |
| 13:52 |
Zeno` |
Apple might even have secret optimisations in their official version! |
| 13:53 |
Zeno` |
It'd surprise me if they didn't, actually |
| 13:54 |
Karlton |
Apple is hands down the most unethical company, so that is why people don't trust them |
| 13:54 |
Karlton |
when it comes to software |
| 13:55 |
srifqi |
is there any Apple's product that it is free? |
| 13:58 |
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| 13:59 |
Zeno` |
srifqi, well they contribute a lot to clang |
| 13:59 |
Zeno` |
clang/llvm |
| 13:59 |
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| 13:59 |
srifqi |
do they? |
| 14:01 |
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| 14:03 |
Karlton |
srifqi: They do, and they basicly made it because you cannot extend GCC with non-free code |
| 14:04 |
srifqi |
so, GCC's extension is non-free code? |
| 14:05 |
Karlton |
GCC is GPLv3 so any extension has to be free whereas Clang is BSD so they can use it with non-free stuff |
| 14:14 |
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| 14:20 |
Sokomine |
i'm wondering how to best present a list of all the nodes present in a schematic so that players can select replacements for non-existing ones. a list might be practical, but an inventory-style view could be more intuitive |
| 14:22 |
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| 14:44 |
xenkey |
So I'm making a whole city with the darkage mod |
| 14:44 |
xenkey |
Figured a little house would merge my modern city and old city nicely |
| 14:48 |
Sokomine |
the darkage mod is a very nice one. if you're finished, don't forget to at least post a screenshot! |
| 14:50 |
xenkey |
Oh it's a 300x290 town |
| 14:51 |
xenkey |
I don't think I'll be around by the time I can post a scrot :) |
| 14:51 |
xenkey |
Sokomine: Have you build towns with it before? Perhaps you could help me since mine looks like someone ran over a carehome with a bulldozer. |
| 14:52 |
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| 14:52 |
Sokomine |
xenkey: i usually don't build entire towns. it takes me enough time to finish lone houses :-) |
| 14:52 |
Sokomine |
hmm. then you ought to spend more time on one house instead of making an entire town |
| 14:52 |
xenkey |
I'm just making one house but it's meant to be a link between old and new |
| 14:53 |
Sokomine |
ah. so make it a very nice one then :-) |
| 14:53 |
xenkey |
Basically a gateway so it's not too rough a transition |
| 14:53 |
Sokomine |
it's good that you think about those transitions. many people do not care about where they build which kind of building |
| 14:54 |
xenkey |
I know that's true. The place I'm building it is now flat because I had to worldedit out many people's houses because they were unprotected and well... awful. |
| 14:58 |
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| 15:16 |
Sokomine |
awful houses happen a lot. the classic is a box made out of cobble - complete with a steel door, a chest (not a locked one!) and a furnace inside. windows or a floor are considered excessive luxory and left away |
| 15:16 |
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| 15:16 |
xenkey |
Yes exactly |
| 15:16 |
twoelk |
xenkey, maybe add a park or small plaza or use anything else that is not like anything of the part you want to transition between. A lot of real life city planning uses that. |
| 15:16 |
xenkey |
And all were about 5 blocks from the spawn borders |
| 15:16 |
xenkey |
twoelk: You mean a third separate part? |
| 15:17 |
Sokomine |
hi twoelk |
| 15:17 |
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| 15:17 |
twoelk |
yeah and hi :) |
| 15:18 |
twoelk |
has the storm been through at your place yet Sokomine? |
| 15:18 |
Sokomine |
twoelk: it's very stormy over here. hard to tell if the worst is over. there's still a lot going on |
| 15:18 |
* twoelk |
is watching the gales bending the trees in front of his window |
| 15:19 |
proller |
twoelk, road map online again |
| 15:19 |
Sokomine |
same here |
| 15:19 |
proller |
twoelk, also try "walk to infinity" |
| 15:19 |
twoelk |
oh, hi proller, seems you have been reading the logs :) |
| 15:20 |
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| 15:20 |
Sokomine |
proller: ah, fine. though a real building server would be a lot nicer... |
| 15:20 |
proller |
just implemented again minetest compat mode in freeminer |
| 15:20 |
twoelk |
nice to hear |
| 15:20 |
proller |
Sokomine, i like survival and not boring exploration maps |
| 15:21 |
Sokomine |
oh! a compat mode sounds very nice |
| 15:22 |
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| 15:22 |
Sokomine |
proller: hmmm. that's not exactly mt's strength. though there has been some progress on mobs. it's quite impressive how far rnd got on his server where fighting mobs is the main objective. for some time, i thought that wouldn't be possible with this game. but it seems to work now |
| 15:22 |
twoelk |
the problem though, proller, is that your maps somehow tend to evolve to pillar forests |
| 15:22 |
proller |
its only near spawn |
| 15:23 |
proller |
~500m and everything ok |
| 15:23 |
Sokomine |
spawn is the card you show to new players - how they'll think your entire server is. and a pillar-like spawn is pretty disgusting |
| 15:23 |
proller |
Sokomine, mobs is very big problem and need to be solved in c++ |
| 15:24 |
proller |
give initial stuff make easier progress on very hard maps |
| 15:24 |
Sokomine |
proller: fire up mt and check rnd's lab server :-) you're probably going to like it. the mobs there - although sadly almost only unfriendly ones - work pretty well |
| 15:25 |
proller |
will try later |
| 15:25 |
Sokomine |
no, maintaining a server requires a bit more than handing out material to players |
| 15:26 |
Sokomine |
i don't like rnd's attitude in that regard much either. for me, vanessae maintains her servers best. best service one could expect :-) a truely safe, inviting place to build |
| 15:28 |
proller |
buld server != survival server |
| 15:29 |
proller |
Losing is fun! |
| 15:29 |
Sokomine |
twoelk: i'm currently trying to create a newer version of my build chest for placing stored buildings. i'm not sure yet how best to present the list of used nodes so that replacements can be selected for nodes that are not installed (or where just another one is desired). list view would be the easiest and probably most practical - as long as people know the node names... |
| 15:30 |
Sokomine |
proller: a server can be both - build and survie. though if there's a very good builder, nobody might complain if such a player would be switched to almost-creative :-) |
| 15:35 |
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| 15:36 |
twoelk |
Sokomine, that nodes listing sounds very interesting. Might be usefull for a lot of things |
| 15:40 |
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| 15:48 |
Sokomine |
the listing of nodes that make up a worldedit or mts file is not a problem. it just requires players to know about nodenames. maybe i ought to offer two views of the same thing: once as a list of nodenames, where the desired replacement can be inserted as another nodename, and one version where the nodes are shown inventory-style like. for the later one, i don't have a good idea yet as to how to show replacements |
| 15:49 |
Sokomine |
the main advantage of such a build chest is that you don't have to worry about facedir though and that it'll rotate the building accordingly |
| 15:50 |
twoelk |
wouldnT you need a database of all nodes and their orientations for that? |
| 15:51 |
twoelk |
maybe make the list consider the nodegroup and suggest replacements according to that |
| 15:51 |
twoelk |
so that a bush should not be replaced by a bench |
| 15:52 |
twoelk |
or rather suggestions to avoid that |
| 15:52 |
Sokomine |
that's too tricky i'm afraid. i can and do that within the villages themshelves - a lot gets replaced there according to installed mods - but it can't be truely universal |
| 15:52 |
twoelk |
this could make the list of choice a little smaller |
| 15:53 |
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| 15:54 |
xenkey |
Do you play any songs when you build? |
| 15:55 |
Sokomine |
no. i don't play music |
| 15:56 |
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| 15:57 |
Calinou |
http://cloudkickermusic.com/ | http://pharaohsandkings.bandcamp.com/releases |
| 15:57 |
Calinou |
both of these |
| 15:57 |
twoelk |
I have a piano in my unfinished manor on VenessaE's creative server but sadly I cannot play it. |
| 15:58 |
xenkey |
:c |
| 15:58 |
xenkey |
Shame |
| 15:59 |
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| 15:59 |
* twoelk |
does like to fool a little around on his colecction of flutes though - when he's alone - and no one is near - all alone - best deep in the forest |
| 16:00 |
Robby |
and underground, in a soundproof bunker |
| 16:01 |
twoelk |
nah bad accustic there. best was up in the Asir mountains, that was eeirie but lovely |
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| 16:26 |
* Calinou |
is working on a server |
| 16:26 |
Calinou |
will run paragenv7, More Blocks, Carbone Mobs… |
| 16:27 |
Sokomine |
hmm. you had one in the past, calinou, didn't you? it continued to exist for some time as one of oldcoders worlds |
| 16:28 |
Calinou |
yes |
| 16:28 |
Calinou |
this is a reboot, new world |
| 16:28 |
Calinou |
will have areas too |
| 16:28 |
Calinou |
I'm trying to keep it lightweight on mods |
| 16:29 |
twoelk |
not using carbone? |
| 16:29 |
Calinou |
nope |
| 16:29 |
Calinou |
will have increased movement speeds (not as fast as Carbone, but faster than minetest_game) for better gameplay |
| 16:30 |
Sokomine |
hmm. how long will it last? |
| 16:30 |
Calinou |
until I'm fed up with griefing, I hope I won't be :) |
| 16:31 |
Calinou |
it's a survival server btw |
| 16:31 |
Calinou |
stealing from unlocked chests is allowed, too |
| 16:31 |
Calinou |
so is PvP |
| 16:32 |
twoelk |
hope you do keep some limits in place for fire and lava though |
| 16:32 |
Sokomine |
ah. so a server of no intrest to me. unless pvp requires mutual prior agreement? |
| 16:34 |
Calinou |
the PvP stuff may be changed in the future, depending on what players say |
| 16:34 |
twoelk |
PvP can be fun if it is well balanced but most servers can not keep up the balance for a long while. they tend to tilt |
| 16:34 |
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| 16:35 |
Calinou |
will have 3d armor so that you spend your iron on it :P |
| 16:35 |
Calinou |
and to defend against mobs of course |
| 16:35 |
twoelk |
btw there are some interesting analogies to power balance and development in reallife colonies that are pretty close to things that happen on came servers |
| 16:36 |
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| 16:41 |
Calinou |
it apears in list, horray! |
| 16:41 |
Calinou |
!server Calinou |
| 16:41 |
MinetestBot |
Calinou: Calinou [FR] | 149.91.81.111 | Clients: 0/32, 0/0 | Version: 0.4.12-dev / minetest | Ping: 11ms |
| 16:41 |
Calinou |
shutting it down, need to tweak config a bit |
| 16:41 |
twoelk |
considering how gameplay evolved lately on casimir's ocean experiment and some developments on the just-test server I think a server should be carefull not to let stealing recources from other players become the best and easiest way to advance |
| 16:43 |
Calinou |
well then… |
| 16:46 |
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| 17:03 |
Calinou |
Sokomine, PvP is now only allowed in emergencies |
| 17:03 |
* Sokomine |
nods to twoelk |
| 17:03 |
Calinou |
ie. it's still enabled, you can fight back if you're attacked |
| 17:04 |
Sokomine |
calinou: hmm. make it the same as on most other servers - ok if both parties agree to it beforehand. that's afaik the best solution. that way, players who really want to fight each others can do so - but others that don't want to can play as well |
| 17:04 |
Calinou |
yes, you can also agree to do it |
| 17:05 |
twoelk |
maybe make people with armor slower, so that you have a chance to flee :D |
| 17:05 |
Sokomine |
no, that's a rule you've got to decide on :-) and which you have to tell your players. "emergency" might be a lot of diffrent things to players |
| 17:06 |
Sokomine |
but armor's also good for fighting hostile mobs... |
| 17:06 |
Calinou |
well, I'll note it on forum topic |
| 17:07 |
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| 17:10 |
Calinou |
Sokomine, can you connect to mt.nerdpol.ovh |
| 17:10 |
Calinou |
to see if domain works |
| 17:10 |
Calinou |
port 30000 |
| 17:18 |
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| 17:25 |
Jordach |
!up mt.nerdpol.ovh |
| 17:25 |
MinetestBot |
mt.nerdpol.ovh:30000 is up (11ms) |
| 17:25 |
Jordach |
Calinou, ^ |
| 17:25 |
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| 17:25 |
xenkey |
.ovh |
| 17:25 |
xenkey |
thats a thing? |
| 17:26 |
Calinou |
yeah |
| 17:26 |
Calinou |
got it from nsupdate.info |
| 17:32 |
Wuzzy |
xenkey: ICANN has invented a broad number of crazy TLDs some time ago. .ovh is a so-called brand-level TLD. Here's a list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Internet_top-level_domains |
| 17:33 |
Wuzzy |
There is even .foo, .bar, .xyz |
| 17:33 |
xenkey |
crazy |
| 17:33 |
xenkey |
what about .tar.gz |
| 17:34 |
Wuzzy |
no |
| 17:34 |
Wuzzy |
that's not a tld |
| 17:34 |
Wuzzy |
TLD* |
| 17:34 |
Wuzzy |
and .gz does not exist |
| 17:35 |
xenkey |
shame |
| 17:35 |
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| 17:36 |
Sokomine |
calinou: seems to work |
| 17:36 |
Wuzzy |
same for me, I pinged it |
| 17:39 |
Wuzzy |
Calinou: What other TLDs can I possibily get with nsupdate.info? |
| 17:42 |
Calinou |
only two public domains right now |
| 17:42 |
Calinou |
*.nerdpol.ovh and *.nsupdate.info |
| 17:42 |
Calinou |
nothing shorter :/ |
| 17:51 |
sfan5 |
xenkey: i think there is .zip |
| 18:04 |
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| 18:09 |
Krock |
Lol. .wtf is a TLD too |
| 18:17 |
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| 18:31 |
Krock |
Calinou, str_replace("Stealing in unlocked chests", "Stealing from unlocked chests")? |
| 18:32 |
Calinou |
ok |
| 18:42 |
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| 18:44 |
Calinou |
!server Calinou |
| 18:44 |
MinetestBot |
Calinou: Calinou [FR] | 149.91.81.111 | Clients: 12/32, 4/12 | Version: 0.4.12-dev / minetest | Ping: 11ms |
| 18:44 |
Jordach |
!server Jordach |
| 18:44 |
MinetestBot |
Jordach: Jordach's Public Server | jordach.net:30001 | Clients: 1/15, 1/2 | Version: 0.4.11-dev / minetest | Ping: 8ms |
| 18:44 |
sfan5 |
!server ping:least |
| 18:44 |
MinetestBot |
sfan5: RND | server.neoascetic.me | Clients: 1/15, 1/3 | Version: 0.4.10 / minetest | Ping: 1ms |
| 18:44 |
sfan5 |
a .me domain |
| 18:44 |
sfan5 |
those are damn expensive |
| 18:46 |
exio4 |
are they? |
| 18:47 |
Calinou |
!server Calinou |
| 18:47 |
MinetestBot |
Calinou: Calinou [FR] | 149.91.81.111 | Clients: 12/32, 4/12 | Version: 0.4.12-dev / minetest | Ping: 11ms |
| 18:48 |
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| 19:00 |
sfan5 |
exio4: if i understand the price chart right, €17,31/yr |
| 19:00 |
sfan5 |
(if you take >1 year) |
| 19:00 |
sfan5 |
(otherwise it's €8,29) |
| 19:00 |
sfan5 |
(https://www.namecheap.com/domains/registration.aspx) |
| 19:02 |
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| 19:31 |
Calinou |
!server Calinou |
| 19:31 |
MinetestBot |
Calinou: Calinou [FR] | 149.91.81.111 | Clients: 15/32, 6/17 | Version: 0.4.12-dev / minetest | Ping: 11ms |
| 19:31 |
Calinou |
15 players! |
| 19:36 |
exio4 |
that was fast |
| 19:37 |
est31 |
!server Trepca |
| 19:37 |
MinetestBot |
est31: No results |
| 19:38 |
est31 |
!server TREPCA |
| 19:38 |
MinetestBot |
est31: No results |
| 19:38 |
* twoelk |
decides, like a good sheep, to follow the herd |
| 19:41 |
est31 |
ouch |
| 19:41 |
est31 |
d0wnt1me |
| 19:42 |
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| 19:42 |
Calinou |
https://lut.im/Y2Spn59E/Hw0QrnMu |
| 19:42 |
Calinou |
server map |
| 19:43 |
est31 |
you should try https://github.com/est31/leaftest |
| 19:46 |
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| 19:49 |
paxcoder |
I've built the mandatory layers and the customary concrete layer around a reactor core, loaded it with uranium rods (1 in each slot), planted the switching station on top of the HV cable, and connected a HV battery. It says the core is "idle". How come? |
| 19:49 |
paxcoder |
est31 |
| 19:50 |
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| 19:54 |
paxcoder |
VanessaE, any idea? |
| 19:55 |
VanessaE |
because there needs to be more |
| 19:55 |
VanessaE |
the core must be surrounded with water, that surrounded with *stainless* steel, |
| 19:56 |
VanessaE |
then blast resistant concrete around that |
| 19:56 |
VanessaE |
and the regular concrete on the outside layer, optionally. |
| 19:57 |
paxcoder |
oh stainless? |
| 19:57 |
VanessaE |
mmhmm |
| 19:57 |
paxcoder |
is that new? |
| 19:57 |
VanessaE |
nope |
| 19:57 |
paxcoder |
:/ |
| 19:57 |
VanessaE |
been that way for a while :) |
| 19:57 |
paxcoder |
but it was iron before? |
| 19:57 |
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| 19:57 |
paxcoder |
*normal |
| 19:57 |
paxcoder |
that's it then, thanks. |
| 19:58 |
VanessaE |
core in the center, 3x3x3 water around it (minus the bottom center, for the cable). 5x5x5 stainless steel blocks, 7x7x7 blast concrete, 9x9x9 regular concrete |
| 19:58 |
paxcoder |
i have a hole top center |
| 19:58 |
paxcoder |
hope that's ok |
| 19:58 |
VanessaE |
in all cases, center bottom has a HV cable. top center can have a hole for access to the core |
| 19:58 |
VanessaE |
careful of the radiation :) |
| 19:59 |
paxcoder |
but it'll run? |
| 19:59 |
paxcoder |
i mean with a top hole |
| 19:59 |
est31 |
yea |
| 19:59 |
paxcoder |
k |
| 20:00 |
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| 20:00 |
rickmcfarley |
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KfBwygvEJNA |
| 20:00 |
rickmcfarley |
Dammit sorry for mobile |
| 20:01 |
rickmcfarley |
No more than 2 holes and they can be anywhere |
| 20:01 |
rickmcfarley |
Unless it changed |
| 20:01 |
VanessaE |
yep |
| 20:01 |
VanessaE |
and those two holes kinda need to be in the bottom and the top |
| 20:02 |
rickmcfarley |
Oh nm |
| 20:02 |
VanessaE |
(well I suppose they could be in the sides, but that makes accessing the core a little harder if you have too short of reach in your chosen game) |
| 20:02 |
rickmcfarley |
Not if it's all under water |
| 20:04 |
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| 20:05 |
VanessaE |
if the hole is in the side, you won't have room to walk in a bit to reach the core, if your reach length is too short |
| 20:05 |
VanessaE |
but from the top, you can climb in (you can't walk into a 1-node-tall hole, but you can climb down into a 1-node-wide hole) |
| 20:10 |
rickmcfarley |
I see, I never go in unless it's on the top or bottom |
| 20:10 |
paxcoder |
i can reach the reactor with just the hole in the customary layer |
| 20:10 |
rickmcfarley |
Oh and the reach was usually far enough |
| 20:12 |
rickmcfarley |
I never thought of that. Thanks VanessaE |
| 20:16 |
VanessaE |
paxcoder: I was thinking of perhaps some custom game where your normal reach range is really REALLY short |
| 20:18 |
VanessaE |
or if someone turns up the radiation of the active core to where you have to stand further away to safely access it |
| 20:18 |
VanessaE |
(I forget if radiation in technic decays with distance) |
| 20:18 |
est31 |
is that bad? |
| 20:19 |
VanessaE |
? |
| 20:19 |
est31 |
its the same effect like the light of a torch, that also gets less the farther you stand away |
| 20:19 |
est31 |
common physical principle |
| 20:19 |
VanessaE |
ok, thought so |
| 20:19 |
VanessaE |
been a while since the original discussion :) |
| 20:20 |
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| 20:20 |
rickmcfarley |
Lol I've also died a lot due to radiation |
| 20:21 |
VanessaE |
I *still* think the reactor code should be tweaked to allow for obsidian glass at the centers of the sides, as viewports |
| 20:21 |
paxcoder |
VanessaE, why? |
| 20:21 |
VanessaE |
why what? |
| 20:22 |
paxcoder |
why were you thinking about a custom game where your normal reach range is really REALLY short (this was not copy pasted) |
| 20:22 |
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| 20:22 |
VanessaE |
OH, I wasn't thinking about making one, per se, but rather if someone should happen to |
| 20:22 |
VanessaE |
i.e. just thinking ahead |
| 20:24 |
rickmcfarley |
I think a radiation suit would be cool |
| 20:24 |
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| 20:24 |
est31 |
there are none in RL either |
| 20:26 |
est31 |
those suits that protect you from radiation at the doctor do help, but not against radiation inside a nuclear reactor |
| 20:27 |
paxcoder |
VanessaE, if you need ideas as to what to program from minetest, i've got one |
| 20:27 |
VanessaE |
what's your idea?> |
| 20:27 |
paxcoder |
a mod thoguh, not a minigame |
| 20:28 |
VanessaE |
*looks at homedecor's TODO lists* |
| 20:28 |
rickmcfarley |
Power suit? |
| 20:28 |
paxcoder |
a "turtlebot" mode, kinda like simplerobots, but with logo as the programming language (except modified for 3D), and with external memory media to store programs on |
| 20:28 |
VanessaE |
been done before. |
| 20:29 |
VanessaE |
jin_xi: *poke* |
| 20:29 |
VanessaE |
there's already a built-in language in minetest for the purpose |
| 20:30 |
VanessaE |
L-systems |
| 20:30 |
paxcoder |
does that L stand for LOGO? |
| 20:30 |
VanessaE |
used by the spawn_tree() call, but can build any shape you want, using up to I think four nodes. |
| 20:30 |
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| 20:30 |
paxcoder |
o.O |
| 20:30 |
VanessaE |
naw, it's some guy's name, whoever it was who came up with it originally years ago, but to a computer it's basically 3d turtle graphics |
| 20:31 |
VanessaE |
(it originated as a way to model how plants branch off and grow) |
| 20:31 |
VanessaE |
anyway j_x here made a mod that lets you play around with the L-systems language in realtime |
| 20:32 |
paxcoder |
i'll look it up. right now i'm busy digging for chromium |
| 20:32 |
VanessaE |
here, have some ;-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium |
| 20:32 |
VanessaE |
ok I'll crawl back into my hole now :P |
| 20:32 |
* VanessaE |
<-- wise ass |
| 20:35 |
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| 20:41 |
Wuzzy |
paxcoder: No, it stands for “Lindenmayerâ€. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-system |
| 20:42 |
Calinou |
!server Calinou |
| 20:42 |
MinetestBot |
Calinou: Calinou [FR] | 149.91.81.111 | Clients: 9/32, 8/17 | Version: 0.4.12-dev / minetest | Ping: 11ms |
| 20:42 |
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| 20:42 |
jin_xi |
someone made a better one |
| 20:42 |
jin_xi |
so dont use mine if its still around |
| 20:43 |
paxcoder |
Wuzzy, interesting. VanessaE, but that looks nothing like Logo |
| 20:43 |
VanessaE |
paxcoder: I know, but my point is it's the same basic idea |
| 20:43 |
paxcoder |
these look to be fractals, ie generation not drawing |
| 20:43 |
TenPlus1 |
hi folks, quick question for those in the know... Stairs mod works fine but if I copy the stairs mod and place it in local mods and enable it I get errors... "attempt to concatenate local 'subname' (a table value)"... why ? it's the same mod with the same code |
| 20:44 |
Wuzzy |
paxcoder: Yes, those ARE fractals. In Minetest, the L-system trees can also be fractals, but of course with finite iterations. |
| 20:45 |
VanessaE |
paxcoder: LOGO is "repeat 3[left 10: forward 5: right 5: forward 30]" and so on.. |
| 20:45 |
VanessaE |
Lsystems does the same |
| 20:46 |
Wuzzy |
yeah, but the “L†still stands for “Lindenmayer†and not “LOGOâ€. :P |
| 20:46 |
Wuzzy |
btw there was a mod somewhere which uses some LOGO-like language |
| 20:46 |
Wuzzy |
I guess it was called “turtle graphics†or something |
| 20:46 |
Wuzzy |
no engine support of course |
| 20:46 |
VanessaE |
only real difference between the two is you can't define variables, you can only have up to four "subroutines", and your left/right/pitch-up/etc turn commands are limited to one angle |
| 20:47 |
jin_xi |
fact is that l system as a whole consists of the retarded axiom and stuff fractal 'code' and a simple turtle graphics turtle which draws the resulting mess |
| 20:47 |
VanessaE |
(which is a hell of a big difference :) |
| 20:47 |
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| 20:47 |
paxcoder |
VanessaE, i don't know lassie, sounds pretty difeferent to me |
| 20:47 |
Wuzzy |
VanessaE: This difference is actually only a limit in Minetest and not inherent to L-systems |
| 20:47 |
VanessaE |
Wuzzy: right |
| 20:48 |
* paxcoder |
thinks Wuzzy's argument is the drawing DSL equivalent of the Turing completeness argument |
| 20:48 |
Wuzzy |
umm, no |
| 20:48 |
Wuzzy |
I don't care honestly. :D |
| 20:48 |
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| 20:48 |
rickmcfarley |
LOGO was cool. I didn't think of it as programming in elementary school |
| 20:49 |
Wuzzy |
Btw, does anyone in here made a cool L-system tree for Minetest and want to show it off? |
| 20:49 |
Wuzzy |
I want to collect examples for the wiki. |
| 20:49 |
VanessaE |
you mean besides moretrees? :) |
| 20:50 |
paxcoder |
That's weird when people explicitly say they don't care. Not sure what to think. |
| 20:50 |
Wuzzy |
I still do not understand why you did not reply to my thread, VanessaE. Maybe too lazy? |
| 20:50 |
VanessaE |
did I miss the thread? |
| 20:50 |
* paxcoder |
lols at that poke |
| 20:51 |
VanessaE |
link please |
| 20:51 |
Wuzzy |
let's find out |
| 20:51 |
VanessaE |
I don't read the forums regularly anymore, just the few topics I am subscribed to |
| 20:52 |
Wuzzy |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=11106 |
| 20:52 |
* TenPlus1 |
prefers schematics |
| 20:53 |
Wuzzy |
Understandable, but schematics can't have randomness AFAIK. |
| 20:53 |
VanessaE |
I feel kinda funny posting about the moretrees mod here... I thought everyone already knew about it. |
| 20:53 |
TenPlus1 |
paramat's new v7mapgen has schematic use with randomness in use |
| 20:54 |
VanessaE |
besides, RBA did most of the models |
| 20:54 |
TenPlus1 |
https://github.com/paramat/biomesdev |
| 20:55 |
Wuzzy |
Well, I would be happy if you just post the treedefs. If you are too lazy, it's ok too. |
| 20:56 |
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| 20:57 |
VanessaE |
there, posted the acacia model |
| 20:59 |
Jordach |
Wuzzy, i found a few bugs with your mana mod |
| 20:59 |
Jordach |
espcially one with hudbars |
| 20:59 |
Wuzzy |
I listen. |
| 21:00 |
Jordach |
Wuzzy, when hudbars is installed, it tries to remove mana's own text |
| 21:00 |
Wuzzy |
Yay, thanks VanessaE. |
| 21:00 |
Jordach |
which doesn't exist |
| 21:00 |
Jordach |
and when players leave, causes a crash |
| 21:00 |
VanessaE |
Wuzzy: you're welcome. hope that's useful |
| 21:00 |
Jordach |
if you have more than 200 mana, it resets it back to 200 on rejoin |
| 21:01 |
Jordach |
http://paste.debian.net/164190/ <- fixed edition |
| 21:01 |
Jordach |
(it also saves the mana.mt file on player leave so stats do keep) |
| 21:02 |
TenPlus1 |
Question for devs: why does stairs mod use abm's to rotate stairs and slabs when on_place = minetest.rotate_node works just as well ??? |
| 21:03 |
Wuzzy |
Jordach: Did you change the max mana? How did you manage to have more than 200 mana? |
| 21:04 |
Jordach |
Wuzzy, i did mana.setmax(playername, mana.getmax(playername) + 25 |
| 21:04 |
Jordach |
) * |
| 21:04 |
Wuzzy |
hmm |
| 21:04 |
Wuzzy |
weird |
| 21:04 |
VanessaE |
TenPlus1: no idea. maybe pre-6d-facedir conversions? |
| 21:04 |
Jordach |
basically you set the max mana and other stats to NIL when they join |
| 21:04 |
Jordach |
as well as setting player data to nil |
| 21:05 |
Wuzzy |
OK, Jordach, I will look into it. |
| 21:05 |
Jordach |
Wuzzy, that debian paste contains my fixes |
| 21:07 |
TenPlus1 |
thx vanessa |
| 21:09 |
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| 21:12 |
Wuzzy |
Jordach, I can't reproduce your bug. |
| 21:13 |
Wuzzy |
I left the room with 225 mana, rejoined, still had 225 mana. |
| 21:13 |
Wuzzy |
Did you play on singleplayer or on a multiplayer server? |
| 21:14 |
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| 21:38 |
Wuzzy |
Jordach: I just pushed a fix. Can you check for me if it works OK now? You can download a snapshot here: http://repo.or.cz/w/minetest_mana.git/snapshot/1b3770dcdf2992e75684c96286410f442d8dd05f.tar.gz |
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* est31 |
guesses Jordach knows git |
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| 22:45 |
Pilcrow |
I was thinking about mobs and had an interesting idea. current mob mods handle spawning by registering an ABM for the nodes a mob can spawn on. would it not be faster (i.e. less server work) to register a globalstep that iterates through connected players, generates a random number to check if it should spawn a mob, and then searches the nearby area for a place to spawn it? |
| 22:47 |
Pilcrow |
or better yet, if it generates a single set of x/z coordinates, scans up/down about 5 nodes to find the surface, and then compares that surface node to a mob lookup table to see if there's one that can spawn there. |
| 22:48 |
VanessaE |
nope, that would be slower |
| 22:48 |
VanessaE |
because an ABM does almost the same thing |
| 22:48 |
VanessaE |
abms only execute for the blocks near a given user |
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| 22:48 |
VanessaE |
globalstep executes continuously, as long as the server is running |
| 22:55 |
Pilcrow |
well, I know it executes continuously, but if put on a timer of, say, 10 seconds (using dtime ofc), would it not be faster to center the calculations on a player versus having an ABM on dirt every 10 seconds? globalstep would have one random number per player to see <if> a mob should spawn nearby, versus 50+ random "chance" calculations (one per each dirt block in the area), followed by time of day calculations for each one that s |
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| 23:02 |
Pilcrow |
^ or am I overlooking something important, VanessaE? |
| 23:03 |
VanessaE |
well that MIGHT be faster |
| 23:03 |
VanessaE |
but the trick is looking for land to spawn on |
| 23:04 |
VanessaE |
surely you'd want the 10-second interval to always be able to find a spot |
| 23:04 |
VanessaE |
or at least to have a good chance |
| 23:06 |
Warr1024 |
you can combine the strategies, too |
| 23:06 |
Pilcrow |
like I said earlier though, I'm thinking it should calculate a single set of x/z coords and scan up/down by around 5 nodes to look for the surface. if the surface happens to be, say, gravel, and nothing is set to spawn on gravel, maybe generate a new set of coords? or maybe just end, and try again with a new set of coords on the next interval... |
| 23:07 |
Warr1024 |
use the ABM to find good candidate spots, and write them into a list. When the list is full, each new entry replaces and existing one |
| 23:07 |
Warr1024 |
then you can use your globalstep timer to perform spawning from that list. |
| 23:07 |
Warr1024 |
something like that would smooth out spikes if you needed to do spawning in bursts |
| 23:09 |
Warr1024 |
tbh, I HAVE done the global timer thing before, and it's not so bad if the limiting factor is mainly a very expensive "eligible to spawn" check. |
| 23:11 |
Pilcrow |
true, Warr1024. I was thinking of spawning a single mob per interval, but maybe spawning in bursts would be better. my other thought was, if the spawning algorithm is specifically focused on the players, mobs can potentially be programmed with no "player-searching" capabilities, as they could spawn tied to the player that they were generated for. this would prevent mobs rubber-banding between nearby players (unlike Simple Mobs)... |
| 23:12 |
Warr1024 |
if you're just interested in adding mobs to add a bit of combat challenge, that's okay, I guess. |
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| 23:12 |
Warr1024 |
I'd be more interested in mobs as a more complex gameplay mechanism, taking into account the limitations of their ability to observe their world |
| 23:13 |
Warr1024 |
That'd be really hard to do scalably, though. |
| 23:13 |
Warr1024 |
One other commonality I've seen in most mob frameworks is the use of entities. I was actually more interested in the possibility of "staybs", i.e. creatures in node-space |
| 23:16 |
Warr1024 |
cellular automata are already a very interesting gameplay mechanic |
| 23:16 |
Warr1024 |
hm, guess I gotta go... |
| 23:17 |
Warr1024 |
btw, Pilcrow, thanks for the upvote on that GUI anti-aliasing merge req. |
| 23:17 |
Pilcrow |
yeah, the kind of complexity needed for environment awareness is beyond the scope of this idea, though; I'm thinking this would be nice for a lightweight hostile-mobs mod. the only reason I really I've ever want mobs in my minetest games is for the added challenge and danger of them. |
| 23:18 |
Pilcrow |
I guess that comment was a bit late, lol |
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| 23:53 |
Pilcrow |
lol awesome name, Player_2. where's Player_1? :P |
| 23:55 |
Player_2 |
he is gone Pilcrow |
| 23:56 |
Player_2 |
dead after glorious battle, or in search of glorious tacos, i do not know |
| 23:57 |
Player_2 |
but none the less, he is not here |
| 23:57 |
Pilcrow |
:P |
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