| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:01 |
marktraceur |
iqualfragile: You certainly seemed to have approximately the intelligence of a Windows user, so it was very difficult for us to tell. |
| 00:01 |
iqualfragile |
thanks for the praise of my acting talent |
| 00:03 |
VanessaE |
Ah, I figured it out! |
| 00:05 |
mauvebic |
i knew that lol |
| 00:05 |
mauvebic |
the minute you praised windows i told mark you were trolling him :p |
| 00:06 |
iqualfragile |
yeah, you said something about that |
| 00:06 |
markveidemanis |
Everyone go on the Zegathon server |
| 00:06 |
mauvebic |
well who in their right mind would praise windows anyways lolo |
| 00:06 |
iqualfragile |
markveidemanis: shure as soon as you give us the ip and jeijas patch for the server-lists gets merged in |
| 00:07 |
mauvebic |
it can get you committed in some countries :-/ |
| 00:07 |
iqualfragile |
for example antarctika? |
| 00:07 |
markveidemanis |
minetest.org:30015 |
| 00:09 |
noodric |
is it really necessary to Create a weperms.txt in the bin folder to use the worldedit mod |
| 00:10 |
mauvebic |
you can hardcode |
| 00:10 |
mauvebic |
uhm, ask sfan or uberi how to |
| 00:12 |
noodric |
where is the "bin" folder on linux? |
| 00:12 |
noodric |
worldedit should be part of minetest core! |
| 00:12 |
marktraceur |
noodric: Did you compile the game or install it somehow? |
| 00:12 |
noodric |
ubuntu c55 pps |
| 00:12 |
noodric |
ppa |
| 00:13 |
marktraceur |
I have never used that. |
| 00:13 |
noodric |
minetestc55 |
| 00:13 |
marktraceur |
I'm looking |
| 00:14 |
marktraceur |
noodric: Looks like /usr/bin |
| 00:15 |
noodric |
i put a config file in usr/bin? sounds hacky |
| 00:15 |
mauvebic |
3 asteroids complete http://www.zimg.eu/i/2697872052 |
| 00:16 |
noodric |
i just updated from 0.3 to 0.44 - noticing the fly mode doesn't let you fly through walls nomore? |
| 00:16 |
iqualfragile |
noodric: either get the code from github and compile it yourself |
| 00:17 |
noodric |
and the e key isn't "down" when flying |
| 00:17 |
iqualfragile |
or, if it was compiled whith -DRUN_IN_PLACE=0 which i guess it was then you should have a ~/.minetest/ folder |
| 00:17 |
noodric |
yeah. i have that folder |
| 00:18 |
marktraceur |
noodric: I don't know if that will be where files are loaded, though.... |
| 00:18 |
noodric |
i know... tried that |
| 00:18 |
noodric |
anyway |
| 00:19 |
noodric |
how does the engine work? how hard would it be to import a DEM as a map? |
| 00:19 |
noodric |
Digital Elevation Model |
| 00:19 |
noodric |
i guess the map is stored in sqlite |
| 00:19 |
iqualfragile |
not _that_ hard but someone would need to write a converter for that thing |
| 00:20 |
OldCoder |
iqualfragile, Should be practical. thexyz has export for other formats. |
| 00:22 |
noodric |
how about integration with Interactive Fiction formats for a story mode? |
| 00:24 |
OldCoder |
noodric, Interesting |
| 00:26 |
noodric |
shortcut. might be awesome. |
| 00:26 |
noodric |
if you could define a region as a room. |
| 00:26 |
|
preludelinux_lap joined #minetest |
| 00:27 |
noodric |
anyway what you guys are doing is awesome. thanks. |
| 00:36 |
noodric |
http://code.google.com/p/garglk/source |
| 00:36 |
moltenbot |
noodric's link: Source Checkout - |
| 00:36 |
VanessaE |
there. |
| 00:36 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/81 |
| 00:37 |
VanessaE |
that fixes Mese once and for all. |
| 00:37 |
VanessaE |
in 25 years when no one will care about the old black and yellow mese thing, then c55 can finally delete it. |
| 00:37 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 00:38 |
|
cisoun joined #minetest |
| 00:38 |
noodric |
using interactive fiction as a story engine would be as retro as using the pixellated blocks. Having to type sentences to interact. |
| 00:39 |
noodric |
and from an educational perspective, worldedit should be part of core. |
| 00:42 |
VanessaE |
ok, screw that. forget that last pull request,. |
| 00:42 |
* VanessaE |
sighs heavily. |
| 00:45 |
OldCoder |
noodric, It is a thought |
| 00:46 |
noodric |
well I'm nobody but that's my input. Copy and past and multiblock selection in edit mode, the true creative mode, like sauerbraten. |
| 00:46 |
noodric |
it is a sandbox game. |
| 00:47 |
noodric |
i guess i better just learn to make mods. |
| 00:48 |
noodric |
a cool block would be one that you could focus on and it is a web browser. |
| 00:48 |
noodric |
so you can go to minetest wiki IN GAME |
| 00:49 |
noodric |
If someone can do all three of those things I would pay them. |
| 00:49 |
noodric |
i mean 4 |
| 00:51 |
noodric |
story mode based on tads3, browser block, file manager block, worldedit, DEM import. 5, Five things! |
| 00:51 |
noodric |
and NES soundtrack! |
| 00:51 |
sdzen |
8 bit chiptune madness? |
| 00:51 |
noodric |
ya |
| 00:51 |
sdzen |
I agree Noodric! |
| 00:52 |
noodric |
then unleash the thing. |
| 00:53 |
noodric |
there should be a block that is a microscopic minecraft instance. |
| 00:53 |
noodric |
$15 per block |
| 00:54 |
noodric |
or a block that is a music block. you compose 8bit tunes in that block |
| 00:54 |
noodric |
fruityloops graphical style music making |
| 00:56 |
|
hmmmm joined #minetest |
| 00:56 |
noodric |
and you could easily do scale the same way spore does it. |
| 00:57 |
noodric |
each block could be another world. |
| 00:57 |
noodric |
and with these games, why are there no cellular automata? |
| 00:57 |
noodric |
you should make a brick that follows the rules of some cellular automata in 2 or 3d. |
| 00:57 |
noodric |
that would kick ass. |
| 00:58 |
noodric |
you could unleash a flasher or a bread loaf. watch it sail across the sky. |
| 00:58 |
noodric |
intelligent blocks. |
| 00:58 |
noodric |
china syndome block |
| 00:58 |
noodric |
syndrom |
| 00:59 |
noodric |
built in ventrillo would also be good. webcam faces. |
| 01:01 |
noodric |
i like the forest fires in this new version. |
| 01:01 |
sdzen |
i think they should spread quicker |
| 01:01 |
sdzen |
it takes too long now |
| 01:02 |
sdzen |
its almost as lame as minecrafts fires now |
| 01:03 |
noodric |
we need tectonics and airmasses |
| 01:03 |
noodric |
and groundwater |
| 01:03 |
sdzen |
that would be cool mr idea guy |
| 01:04 |
noodric |
7 things then |
| 01:06 |
noodric |
well what's the new direction then? |
| 01:07 |
iqualfragile |
forget - browser-block, filemanagerblock |
| 01:07 |
iqualfragile |
but celular automata are easy |
| 01:07 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82 |
| 01:08 |
VanessaE |
THERE! Now everyone can stop bitching about the change. |
| 01:08 |
noodric |
you should be able to define a CA block graphically, based on the nearest neighbors. |
| 01:09 |
noodric |
8. and a few ways to make decisions about the next timeblock |
| 01:09 |
noodric |
in the game is blocktime also pixellated? |
| 01:13 |
|
q66 joined #minetest |
| 01:19 |
|
LunaVorax joined #minetest |
| 01:20 |
Exio |
http://cadoth.net/~exio4/mt/make.gcc.log |
| 01:20 |
LunaVorax |
Here you go VanessaE |
| 01:20 |
Exio |
(or http://cadoth.net/~exio4/mt/make.log), any ideas? |
| 01:20 |
Exio |
only 'cmake .' + 'make' |
| 01:20 |
Exio |
it compiled a bit ago |
| 01:20 |
VanessaE |
there we go, much better. |
| 01:20 |
Exio |
like 4~ days |
| 01:20 |
VanessaE |
hi LunaVorax :-) |
| 01:21 |
Exio |
hi btw |
| 01:21 |
VanessaE |
Exio: I haven't the foggiest clue :-) |
| 01:21 |
Exio |
haha |
| 01:23 |
iqualfragile |
Exio: yeah, repull, retry, that should have been fixed 2-3 days ago |
| 01:23 |
Exio |
haha |
| 01:23 |
Exio |
Already up-to-date. |
| 01:26 |
|
q66 joined #minetest |
| 01:29 |
Exio |
recloning it |
| 01:30 |
|
noobile joined #minetest |
| 01:35 |
noobile |
autonomous block? |
| 01:35 |
Exio |
iqualfragile: i still have the problem |
| 01:35 |
Exio |
any ideas? |
| 01:35 |
Exio |
git clone http://github.com/celeron55/minetest;cd minetest;cmake .;make == that |
| 01:38 |
iqualfragile |
nah, i run out of ideas… |
| 01:39 |
Exio |
hm, k |
| 01:39 |
Exio |
i will play xonotic then :P |
| 01:40 |
iqualfragile |
pff, get a compiled version from minetest.net/download |
| 01:40 |
Exio |
nah |
| 01:57 |
iqualfragile |
yeah, well, good night |
| 01:57 |
|
Jakssoul joined #minetest |
| 01:57 |
|
nyuszika7h joined #minetest |
| 02:20 |
VanessaE |
zzz |
| 02:20 |
|
ruskie joined #minetest |
| 02:38 |
OldCoder |
ruskie, wb |
| 02:38 |
OldCoder |
ruskie, You awake? |
| 02:42 |
|
Jakssoul joined #minetest |
| 02:42 |
Jakssoul |
'Ello, everyone. |
| 02:42 |
OldCoder |
Jakssoul, Hi |
| 02:43 |
Jakssoul |
OldCoder, how's your day been? |
| 02:43 |
OldCoder |
Good |
| 02:43 |
OldCoder |
Productive |
| 02:43 |
OldCoder |
I will have blog stuff to post tonight |
| 02:43 |
OldCoder |
Quiet in IRC |
| 02:43 |
OldCoder |
People seem happy |
| 02:43 |
OldCoder |
day++ |
| 02:44 |
Jakssoul |
I told a die hard Christian that "God" isn't real today. Made my day! :D (I'm terrible.) |
| 02:44 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 02:45 |
Jakssoul |
I'm probably more amused by it than I should be. |
| 02:45 |
VanessaE |
Jakssoul: you wanna really fuck with them? tell them the devil doesn't exist. |
| 02:45 |
Jakssoul |
Why's that? |
| 02:45 |
VanessaE |
they seem to take that worse than claims of G*d's non-existence :-) |
| 02:45 |
Jakssoul |
The second I said it, I was threatened with Brimstone. Not hell, just Brimstone. |
| 02:45 |
Jakssoul |
I was like, "Uhmmm?" |
| 02:46 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: update coming in about 7 minutes, give or take. |
| 02:46 |
VanessaE |
at your leisure. |
| 02:46 |
Jakssoul |
Brimstone and Limestone, actually. This woman thinks god talks to her. Like, Skypes her and stuff. |
| 02:46 |
Jakssoul |
Hahahaa. (Not literally Skype, but you get the point I hope.) |
| 02:46 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, fine |
| 02:46 |
VanessaE |
Jakssoul: *shrug* I don't know what gets the fundies so fired up. :-/ |
| 02:47 |
OldCoder |
Jakssoul, VanessaE It is about people and not faith. I have met people of faith who have changed my feelings. I now judge individuals based on what they do. |
| 02:47 |
Jakssoul |
They believe they are just and right. Any human that believes they are in the right is a dangerous force. |
| 02:47 |
OldCoder |
Yes |
| 02:47 |
OldCoder |
But the line is... self righteous |
| 02:47 |
OldCoder |
There are those who are humble |
| 02:47 |
OldCoder |
I have come to respect them |
| 02:48 |
Jakssoul |
Agnostics, Atheists, Spiritualists, Religious, anyone. Scary scary. |
| 02:48 |
Jakssoul |
Yes. I agree OldCoder. |
| 02:48 |
OldCoder |
Yes |
| 02:48 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: the problem is when a believer, one way or the other, feels the need to force their opinions on you even after you've clearly indicated yours. |
| 02:49 |
OldCoder |
I have just written a Christmas Eve essay for a Fundamentalist friend. It will be blogged. He tries to help people. Others try to... crush. |
| 02:49 |
OldCoder |
Yes |
| 02:49 |
OldCoder |
There are Pharisees |
| 02:49 |
* OldCoder |
wants nothing to do with those |
| 02:49 |
Jakssoul |
Yeah. I'm in foster care (I'm about to be turning 18 on New Years Eve, just so you guys know), and my foster Mother was the one I told this to. |
| 02:49 |
VanessaE |
Jakssoul: ouch. |
| 02:49 |
OldCoder |
How did she react? |
| 02:49 |
Jakssoul |
Brimstone and Limestone. |
| 02:50 |
VanessaE |
not positively, by the sound of it |
| 02:50 |
OldCoder |
Jakssoul, and were you born with the year then? |
| 02:50 |
VanessaE |
limestone though? |
| 02:50 |
Jakssoul |
Hahahaaahaha. She's been forcing her religion on me for weeks. |
| 02:50 |
OldCoder |
You spoke up |
| 02:50 |
* OldCoder |
imagines the scene |
| 02:50 |
OldCoder |
Heh |
| 02:50 |
Jakssoul |
Yeahhh. She told me I was shameful for not willing to go home to an abusive step father. |
| 02:50 |
Jakssoul |
God would fix things if I just went home. |
| 02:50 |
OldCoder |
Oh boy |
| 02:50 |
Jakssoul |
Then.. well.. "God's not real." *Walks away*. |
| 02:51 |
* OldCoder |
chuckles |
| 02:51 |
Jakssoul |
*Hears in background* LIMESTONE AND BRIMSTONE AWAIT YEEE BOY! |
| 02:51 |
VanessaE |
see, now if this weren't your mom, it would be the part where you also say how you're gay or you're gonna marry a person of color, etc. |
| 02:51 |
OldCoder |
Limestone |
| 02:51 |
OldCoder |
Limestone? |
| 02:51 |
Jakssoul |
Yes. Limestone. |
| 02:51 |
VanessaE |
yeah, I don't get the limestone bit. can you elaborate |
| 02:51 |
VanessaE |
? |
| 02:51 |
OldCoder |
That is for buildings isn't it? |
| 02:51 |
Jakssoul |
I don't know. She's not well educated on her religion. |
| 02:51 |
Jakssoul |
Yes it is, foundation. |
| 02:51 |
OldCoder |
Thought so. Thank her for the construction material. |
| 02:52 |
VanessaE |
lol |
| 02:52 |
Jakssoul |
Hahahahahaha! Wonderful. |
| 02:52 |
OldCoder |
Jakssoul, I was raised by such people |
| 02:52 |
VanessaE |
/giveme mom:limestone_block 999 |
| 02:52 |
OldCoder |
It did not go well |
| 02:52 |
OldCoder |
Heh |
| 02:52 |
VanessaE |
ok, I'm bad. |
| 02:52 |
Jakssoul |
That was perfection. |
| 02:52 |
VanessaE |
/giveme mom:brimstone_block 666 |
| 02:52 |
VanessaE |
;) |
| 02:52 |
Jakssoul |
I laughed SO HARD. But I apologize, OldCoder. It's never good. |
| 02:52 |
OldCoder |
Yep |
| 02:52 |
Jakssoul |
666? It just keeps getting better. |
| 02:52 |
Jakssoul |
;) |
| 02:52 |
OldCoder |
Hey, Kenneth... BTW Merry Christmas :P |
| 02:53 |
* OldCoder |
chuckles again |
| 02:53 |
OldCoder |
It's a pretty good essay that's going up |
| 02:53 |
OldCoder |
We should have churches in MT. Cathedrals and Bazaars. |
| 02:53 |
Jakssoul |
Then, at dinner tonight, she had some 84 year old woman I've never met. She was belittling me the entirety of the time. Then dinner ends with "You can believe whatever you want though." |
| 02:53 |
OldCoder |
Perhaps Old Testament scenes. |
| 02:54 |
OldCoder |
Sounds... |
| 02:54 |
OldCoder |
Huh |
| 02:54 |
OldCoder |
Why did you stay? |
| 02:54 |
Jakssoul |
Stay? |
| 02:54 |
OldCoder |
At the table? |
| 02:54 |
OldCoder |
Put up with it? |
| 02:54 |
Jakssoul |
I'm respectful of those I have to live with. |
| 02:54 |
Jakssoul |
Parents, foster or not. |
| 02:54 |
OldCoder |
You are required to be civil and respectful |
| 02:54 |
OldCoder |
But that is different is it not? |
| 02:54 |
VanessaE |
I am SO glad I'm Jewish. Sorry for the Christians in this channel, but *groan* I cannot fathom why anyone would treat someone that way. |
| 02:54 |
VanessaE |
it's wrong in so many ways. |
| 02:54 |
Jakssoul |
I suppose it is, yes. But, I kept my mouth shut and sat there. |
| 02:54 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, It is any faith or even secular matters |
| 02:55 |
OldCoder |
The dividing line is... self righteous |
| 02:55 |
VanessaE |
true. |
| 02:55 |
OldCoder |
So I watch for that in myself |
| 02:55 |
OldCoder |
<-- not perfect, to be clear |
| 02:55 |
VanessaE |
we have our fundies in this faith too (Orthodox, Hasidim). |
| 02:55 |
OldCoder |
A little humility goes a long way |
| 02:55 |
OldCoder |
Yep |
| 02:55 |
OldCoder |
BUT |
| 02:55 |
OldCoder |
Not every "fundie" in any faith wishes to crush you |
| 02:55 |
OldCoder |
Some actually have... faith |
| 02:56 |
OldCoder |
For others it is about something else |
| 02:56 |
OldCoder |
Hmm |
| 02:56 |
VanessaE |
of course I'm about as reform as it gets - I listen to christmas music, enjoy the lights, eat pizza with plenty of pork products, wear clothes of mixes fibers,.... :-) |
| 02:56 |
OldCoder |
Pork Products |
| 02:56 |
OldCoder |
That is plenty reformed all right :-) |
| 02:56 |
Jakssoul |
Mmmm. Yes, generalizing religious people is never good. Though, in general (I'm about to do it anyway), they generalize agnostics, atheists, or people of any other religion as evil. |
| 02:56 |
OldCoder |
Yep |
| 02:56 |
OldCoder |
And yet... |
| 02:56 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: well I'm using "fundie" specifically to mean those who choose to "crush", as you put it. Not in the generic sense. |
| 02:56 |
OldCoder |
Yep |
| 02:56 |
OldCoder |
Both of you have valid perspectives |
| 02:57 |
OldCoder |
Here is an irony |
| 02:57 |
OldCoder |
I will not take up the channel with much personal business but this I will say... |
| 02:57 |
VanessaE |
pork products. I love my dead, cooked pig - with cheese ;-) |
| 02:57 |
Jakssoul |
HAHA. (Nicccee..) Yes, OldCoder? |
| 02:57 |
OldCoder |
My fundamentalist father seeks to crush me. My fundamentalist attorney fights back and writes letters consigning him to Hell. And fundamentalist friends support. It is fundamentalist fun. |
| 02:58 |
OldCoder |
:D |
| 02:58 |
Jakssoul |
I'd like to apologize to everyone for clogging this channel up with my personal stuff. |
| 02:58 |
VanessaE |
dayum |
| 02:58 |
Jakssoul |
Wow. That seems a fun cycle. |
| 02:58 |
OldCoder |
Jakssoul, It is quiet tonight |
| 02:58 |
|
Zephyr joined #minetest |
| 02:58 |
OldCoder |
Go for it until somebody else speaks of Minetest |
| 02:58 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: "But, he told me to go to hell!" "Well, I checked the law on that and...you don't have to go." |
| 02:58 |
OldCoder |
Yep |
| 02:58 |
Jakssoul |
Hahahaha! |
| 02:58 |
VanessaE |
(Bobby Jones commenting to a client during his years as a lawyer) |
| 02:58 |
OldCoder |
The other side did not reply to that part if I recall correctly |
| 02:58 |
OldCoder |
Heh |
| 02:59 |
Jakssoul |
After I told her "God" is not real, she later said at dinner "God told me you didn't believe in him weeks ago." So that's why you kept praying with me and "PRETENDING" that you didn't know. |
| 02:59 |
Jakssoul |
Lies lies lies. Fun fun! |
| 03:00 |
Jakssoul |
Praying for me* |
| 03:00 |
VanessaE |
as depicted in the movie (Bobby Jones: Stroke of Genius), the old man just kinda smiled knowing he didn't really need to pursue it any further :-) |
| 03:00 |
VanessaE |
Jakssoul: *facepalm* |
| 03:00 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: uploading now... |
| 03:01 |
Jakssoul |
Anyway, how's that olddd Minetest going? :P I tried getting my Fiance to play. She played singleplayer and apparently didn't like it. o.O |
| 03:01 |
|
shadowjay1 joined #minetest |
| 03:01 |
VanessaE |
Jakssoul: it's going well :-) |
| 03:02 |
Jakssoul |
It kind of blew my mind. What's not to like!? :p |
| 03:02 |
Jakssoul |
It sucks, because her laptop has 8 times as much RAM as mine does, has a screen almost twice as big, and a WAAAY bigger harddrive. All she does is use Facebook. *groans* |
| 03:02 |
VanessaE |
Jakssoul: my husband is in the same boat as your fiancé - he doesn't see what's so special about it. |
| 03:03 |
VanessaE |
(he prefers board games and pinball) |
| 03:03 |
Jakssoul |
*GASPS* |
| 03:03 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: upload complete. You may update when ready :-) |
| 03:03 |
Jakssoul |
Like, windows Pinball? Or real pinball? |
| 03:03 |
VanessaE |
Windows pinball actually. |
| 03:04 |
VanessaE |
he has like three different ones he plays, plus Emelia pinball on linux. |
| 03:04 |
Jakssoul |
I just cried for you. I'm so sorry! xD |
| 03:04 |
Jakssoul |
Hahahaa. :p |
| 03:04 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 03:05 |
VanessaE |
to him, I'm obsessed. :-) |
| 03:05 |
sdzen |
windows pinball is fun actually |
| 03:05 |
Jakssoul |
Windows Pinball is fun until the sound effects aren't fun. At least, for me. XD |
| 03:05 |
VanessaE |
sdzen: did you see the revised pull request? it's even better than before :-) |
| 03:06 |
VanessaE |
sdzen: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82 |
| 03:06 |
VanessaE |
Jakssoul: he plays without audio turned on, via a virtual machine. |
| 03:06 |
VanessaE |
(like he, he runs linux) |
| 03:07 |
Jakssoul |
Wait. What? |
| 03:07 |
|
NakedFury joined #minetest |
| 03:07 |
Jakssoul |
He likes it... WITHOUT AUDIO? |
| 03:07 |
Jakssoul |
It's... it's... It's WORTHLESS without the amazing sound effects! Is he currently suffering from some kind of crippling mental disorder? (If he really is, I was kidding, I promise!!!) |
| 03:08 |
VanessaE |
haha |
| 03:08 |
VanessaE |
no, neither of us cares much for sound effects in games except on a limited basis. |
| 03:08 |
sdzen |
hmmmm |
| 03:08 |
sdzen |
is it bad if i like the old fix better? |
| 03:08 |
sdzen |
with this one it makes creating mese blocks kinda cheap |
| 03:09 |
Jakssoul |
I don't like sound effects either. Except in Pinball. |
| 03:09 |
sdzen |
i liked the make mese blocks like making steel blocks thing |
| 03:09 |
VanessaE |
sdzen: they still are. |
| 03:09 |
sdzen |
hmmm? |
| 03:09 |
VanessaE |
this just makes it so the old mese object is still available, but deprecated,. |
| 03:09 |
sdzen |
wha.... |
| 03:09 |
sdzen |
now im lost |
| 03:10 |
sdzen |
how many different mese''sss are there? |
| 03:10 |
VanessaE |
szden: the old mese object, plus the new ore, blocks, crystals, fragments. |
| 03:10 |
VanessaE |
the old mese object can be crafter into crystals too, so it doesn't lose any value. :-) |
| 03:10 |
VanessaE |
crafted. |
| 03:11 |
VanessaE |
I covered everything with this update. |
| 03:11 |
sdzen |
hmmmm |
| 03:11 |
hmmmm |
hmmmm |
| 03:11 |
VanessaE |
hmmm? |
| 03:11 |
Jakssoul |
How do I use player textures? |
| 03:11 |
sdzen |
you know these are the kind of things that should be covered before you commit |
| 03:11 |
sdzen |
just saying |
| 03:12 |
Jakssoul |
Bahaha. Same as other textures? Or am I being a dumb newb and there is a guide somewhere? |
| 03:12 |
VanessaE |
Jakssoul: on a server, you just ask the admin to install whatever minecraft (yes) skin you want. for singleplayer use it's kinda pointless since you can't see yourself :-) |
| 03:12 |
VanessaE |
but yeah, they behave like any other texture. |
| 03:12 |
VanessaE |
name it character.png or some such, and put it in minetest/textures/all |
| 03:12 |
Jakssoul |
Oh darn. I was going to put it on singleplayer assuming I could go to 3rd person perspective like Minecraft. Forgot! Wooops. |
| 03:13 |
Jakssoul |
I was going to Slenderman creep on trees. xD |
| 03:13 |
sdzen |
I mean how many pull requests have I seen that get thrown under incredible scrutiny before being commited |
| 03:13 |
sdzen |
lots before |
| 03:13 |
sdzen |
not so many now..... |
| 03:14 |
VanessaE |
sdzen: let's face it, as a coder I suck :-) |
| 03:15 |
VanessaE |
sdzen: besides, in this case it was more a matter of realizing how dumb a given idea is and ripping it apart for a revisal :-) |
| 03:17 |
sdzen |
i must admit this idea got much more attention then any other idea ive seen in some time |
| 03:17 |
sdzen |
mainly because there was a vote |
| 03:17 |
sdzen |
which never happens |
| 03:19 |
VanessaE |
well the end result is a better model for mese anyway :-) |
| 03:19 |
VanessaE |
and since the old stuff ain't generated anymore after this change, it'll gradually fade into obscurity like it was originally meant to :-) |
| 03:24 |
Jakssoul |
Money. |
| 03:24 |
Exio |
wait, mese changed? |
| 03:24 |
Exio |
when?! |
| 03:24 |
Exio |
i missed something :P |
| 03:25 |
VanessaE |
Exio: a few days ago; the aforementioned pull request just tunes it a bit. |
| 03:25 |
Jakssoul |
Holy LIMESTONE! I am trying to delete a texture pack and it's taking forever!!! |
| 03:28 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, I have been in a meeting. Updating now. |
| 03:28 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: at your leisure. |
| 03:29 |
Jakssoul |
Anyone know how to get "jordach's" Minecraft texture pack to work? His instructions direct you to extract a foler into /minetest/games/ , but I've had no change in the game after doing that? |
| 03:29 |
Exio |
well |
| 03:30 |
VanessaE |
Jakssoul: copy the PNG files to minetest/textures/all |
| 03:30 |
Exio |
https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commit/40dac4cde4782943eb00f7bfc7ce2d99135be7c9 |
| 03:30 |
moltenbot |
Exio's link: Fixed u64 ambiguous symbol error ? 40dac4c ? celeron55/minetest ? GitHub |
| 03:30 |
Jakssoul |
Alrighty. That it? |
| 03:30 |
Exio |
that was my problem VanessaE |
| 03:30 |
Jakssoul |
There are no PNG files. |
| 03:31 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, same links? |
| 03:31 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, the map or the mods or both? |
| 03:31 |
VanessaE |
yep |
| 03:31 |
VanessaE |
I update all four links at once |
| 03:32 |
OldCoder |
All right |
| 03:32 |
OldCoder |
D/Lg |
| 03:32 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, my... your world is growing :-) |
| 03:33 |
VanessaE |
indeed it is :-) |
| 03:45 |
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leo_rockway joined #minetest |
| 03:47 |
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frogcrush joined #minetest |
| 03:56 |
|
mauvebic joined #minetest |
| 04:02 |
VanessaE |
morning, mauvebic and whoever else :-) |
| 04:02 |
VanessaE |
(or evening as the case may be) |
| 04:03 |
OldCoder |
Yep |
| 04:07 |
|
jojoa1997 joined #minetest |
| 04:07 |
jojoa1997 |
just wondering who is here |
| 04:07 |
jojoa1997 |
MERRY CHRISTMAS |
| 04:08 |
VanessaE |
hi jojo |
| 04:09 |
jojoa1997 |
hi did you look at my mod |
| 04:09 |
OldCoder |
jojoa1997, which one? |
| 04:09 |
jojoa1997 |
sorry to be rude how was your christmas? |
| 04:10 |
jojoa1997 |
oldcoder: i got my npc mod top work \o/ |
| 04:10 |
OldCoder |
Good for you! |
| 04:10 |
OldCoder |
Link? |
| 04:10 |
OldCoder |
I will review this weke |
| 04:10 |
leo_rockway |
greetings |
| 04:10 |
OldCoder |
I will review this week * |
| 04:10 |
VanessaE |
jojoa1997: not yet, I haven't had a chance |
| 04:10 |
OldCoder |
leo_rockway, hey |
| 04:10 |
VanessaE |
I have it open in a tab though |
| 04:10 |
VanessaE |
evening leo_rockway |
| 04:10 |
jojoa1997 |
http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4167 |
| 04:10 |
moltenbot |
jojoa1997's link: [Mod] Peaceful NPC [1.2] [peaceful_npc] (Page 1) - Mod Releases - Minetest Forums |
| 04:11 |
jojoa1997 |
oldcoder:cant wait for review and ending up to do what i wanted i just needed to tell the node to do the spawning function if there was less than max |
| 04:12 |
jojoa1997 |
not to stop it if there is more than max |
| 04:12 |
VanessaE |
jojoa1997: you are certain this thing is stable? |
| 04:12 |
jojoa1997 |
yes |
| 04:12 |
VanessaE |
jojoa1997: how long did you let it run on your game afrer your last change before declaring it so? |
| 04:12 |
VanessaE |
after* |
| 04:12 |
leo_rockway |
what do peaceful mobs do? do they provide raw materials? |
| 04:12 |
jojoa1997 |
gonna test it again though just for you |
| 04:12 |
VanessaE |
leo_rockway: you can kill them for mese crystal fragments. |
| 04:13 |
jojoa1997 |
when you kill them you get a mese fregment |
| 04:13 |
leo_rockway |
okay |
| 04:13 |
jojoa1997 |
shot found a problem |
| 04:13 |
VanessaE |
jojoa1997: I suggest having them drop a Mese Crystal |
| 04:13 |
jojoa1997 |
shoot |
| 04:13 |
jojoa1997 |
k |
| 04:13 |
VanessaE |
but only randomly, say a 1 in 4 chance of it. |
| 04:14 |
VanessaE |
well no |
| 04:14 |
VanessaE |
make that about a 1 in 10 chance. |
| 04:14 |
VanessaE |
make the player work a bit for it |
| 04:14 |
Exio |
1/50 |
| 04:14 |
jojoa1997 |
brb |
| 04:14 |
OldCoder |
jojoa1997, c u |
| 04:14 |
jojoa1997 |
1/15 |
| 04:14 |
VanessaE |
1/50? That's a bit low isn't it? |
| 04:17 |
Exio |
well, yes |
| 04:18 |
jojoa1997 |
how is this if self.object:get_hp() == 0 then |
| 04:18 |
jojoa1997 |
local obj = minetest.env:add_item(self.object:getpos(), "default:mese_crystal_fragment") end |
| 04:19 |
jojoa1997 |
chance = 15 |
| 04:19 |
jojoa1997 |
end |
| 04:19 |
VanessaE |
I dunno about the chance variable, but make it default:mese_crystal |
| 04:19 |
VanessaE |
(not fragment) |
| 04:19 |
VanessaE |
they're more useful than fragments |
| 04:20 |
jojoa1997 |
can you craft a crystal out of fragments |
| 04:22 |
jojoa1997 |
well can you |
| 04:25 |
|
hohoho joined #minetest |
| 04:29 |
VanessaE |
no |
| 04:29 |
VanessaE |
crystals can only be broken, not put together |
| 04:29 |
VanessaE |
the idea of fragments is that they be used to low-power items |
| 04:41 |
|
Kacey joined #minetest |
| 04:41 |
Kacey |
hello |
| 04:41 |
VanessaE |
hey |
| 04:41 |
Kacey |
mythbuntu is pretty cool |
| 04:42 |
Kacey |
runs chromium natively |
| 04:42 |
Kacey |
brb |
| 04:52 |
|
Jordach joined #minetest |
| 04:52 |
|
Jordach joined #minetest |
| 04:53 |
Jordach |
hello all |
| 04:53 |
* Jordach |
flops down sleepily on the channel sofa |
| 04:54 |
VanessaE |
hey that's MY spot |
| 04:54 |
VanessaE |
shove over! |
| 04:54 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 04:55 |
Jordach |
heh |
| 04:55 |
VanessaE |
Jordach: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82 |
| 04:55 |
VanessaE |
better? |
| 04:57 |
|
home_ joined #minetest |
| 04:57 |
home_ |
back |
| 04:57 |
* VanessaE |
wonders who home_ is :-) |
| 04:58 |
Kacey_ |
lol wow |
| 04:58 |
VanessaE |
that's better |
| 04:58 |
Kacey_ |
xubuntu 12.04 |
| 04:59 |
Kacey_ |
gtg |
| 04:59 |
Kacey_ |
nvm |
| 05:01 |
* VanessaE |
pokes at Jordach |
| 05:01 |
* Jordach |
reuturns said poke |
| 05:01 |
VanessaE |
Jordach: code ^^^^^ |
| 05:01 |
* Kacey_ |
pokes himself |
| 05:02 |
Jordach |
already looked |
| 05:02 |
VanessaE |
and? |
| 05:03 |
Jordach |
its good |
| 05:04 |
VanessaE |
good, now where the hell is PilzAdam at to push it through :-) |
| 05:06 |
|
Renoki joined #minetest |
| 05:06 |
Exio |
in /dev/reallife :P |
| 05:07 |
VanessaE |
I/O error reading /dev/reallife: No such file/directory. |
| 05:07 |
Jordach |
in real life: linux cannot be life |
| 05:07 |
Jordach |
also, hes been very active on xbox live |
| 05:08 |
Exio |
hehe |
| 05:08 |
VanessaE |
cool |
| 05:09 |
Exio |
Jordach: who said linux? |
| 05:09 |
Exio |
/dev comes from unix! |
| 05:09 |
|
SpeedProg joined #minetest |
| 05:09 |
Jordach |
also: hes been playing SKYRIM |
| 05:10 |
* hohoho |
thinks he's going senile ~_~ |
| 05:10 |
Jordach |
https://live.xbox.com/en-GB/Profile?gamertag=PilzAdam |
| 05:10 |
moltenbot |
Jordach's link: PilzAdam's Profile - Xbox.com |
| 05:10 |
Jordach |
see? |
| 05:11 |
Kacey_ |
brb |
| 05:16 |
Jordach |
VanessaE, 5:16 am and the tv has crap on :( |
| 05:16 |
Jordach |
(literally crap shows.) |
| 05:16 |
VanessaE |
there's a surprise :-/ |
| 05:16 |
VanessaE |
I gave up watching TV long ago, generally. |
| 05:16 |
Jordach |
fuck it, youtube! |
| 05:16 |
hohoho |
hey VanessaE same here. not watched tv in about 5 years or so |
| 05:17 |
Jordach |
so thats why you live in /dev/null |
| 05:17 |
hohoho |
sorry im not more talkative tonight. trying to remember my passwords to my email and encrypted stashes |
| 05:17 |
hohoho |
lol |
| 05:17 |
hohoho |
I can tell my minds not as sharp as it used to be |
| 05:18 |
hohoho |
btw VanessaE just wanted to mention that somehow you seem and feel like an old friend. one that's been around forever. yet I don't know you lol |
| 05:18 |
hohoho |
anyone else have same feeling from them? |
| 05:18 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 05:18 |
VanessaE |
well thanks :-) |
| 05:18 |
Exio |
going to sleep, night |
| 05:19 |
hohoho |
night exio |
| 05:19 |
* VanessaE |
groans in tiredness |
| 05:19 |
* hohoho |
passes some coffee? |
| 05:19 |
VanessaE |
I/O reading /dev/brain: Bus error |
| 05:19 |
VanessaE |
aw fuck I blew it :-) |
| 05:20 |
VanessaE |
coffee sounds pretty good. pass the cream and stevia? |
| 05:20 |
VanessaE |
more than that. I like a little coffee with my cream :-) |
| 05:21 |
hohoho |
I used to drink my coffee black (back when I was good at making coffee) |
| 05:22 |
|
Kacey joined #minetest |
| 05:22 |
Kacey |
back |
| 05:23 |
hohoho |
wb kacey |
| 05:24 |
Kacey |
ty |
| 05:26 |
Kacey |
VanessaE |
| 05:31 |
VanessaE |
Oh sure, I step away for 5 mins and I miss something |
| 05:33 |
VanessaE |
well 10 mins |
| 05:37 |
|
Kacey joined #minetest |
| 05:37 |
Kacey |
back |
| 05:37 |
VanessaE |
wb |
| 05:37 |
VanessaE |
you rang? |
| 05:37 |
Kacey |
aah yes i seem to not be able to load the map |
| 05:38 |
VanessaE |
oh no.. not again :( |
| 05:38 |
Kacey |
what? |
| 05:42 |
Kacey |
what? |
| 05:44 |
* Kacey |
is phasing in and out of reality |
| 05:44 |
|
jojoa1997 joined #minetest |
| 05:45 |
VanessaE |
the server mapgen is jammed again. |
| 05:45 |
VanessaE |
wtf is the problem?????? |
| 05:45 |
Kacey |
jammed? |
| 05:45 |
VanessaE |
Kacey: it ain't loading for me, or for jojoa1997 |
| 05:46 |
Kacey |
hmmm server restart? |
| 05:46 |
Kacey |
would that work at all? |
| 05:51 |
* Kacey |
is extremely bored |
| 06:02 |
|
Kacey joined #minetest |
| 06:02 |
Kacey |
back |
| 06:03 |
Jordach |
OldCoder, still here? |
| 06:03 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest |
| 06:03 |
Kacey |
hallo |
| 06:03 |
kaeza |
hello everyone |
| 06:03 |
OldCoder |
Jordach, yes |
| 06:03 |
kaeza |
and merry christmas ^_^ |
| 06:03 |
Jordach |
okay. |
| 06:03 |
OldCoder |
Preparing to add stuff |
| 06:03 |
Jordach |
and yes |
| 06:04 |
Jordach |
im up real early |
| 06:04 |
OldCoder |
I'd still like to see your xmas mod |
| 06:04 |
Jordach |
just use the creative world |
| 06:04 |
Jordach |
which is port? |
| 06:04 |
Kacey |
VanessaE are you alive? |
| 06:05 |
VanessaE |
no |
| 06:05 |
kaeza |
hi Kacey |
| 06:05 |
kaeza |
hey hey VanessaE |
| 06:05 |
Kacey |
ok then |
| 06:05 |
Jordach |
O.O |
| 06:05 |
Kacey |
hallo |
| 06:05 |
mauvebic |
iive dipped in slightly into the holiday sauce :S |
| 06:05 |
VanessaE |
what's up, kacey? |
| 06:05 |
mauvebic |
perhaps later we'll be able to trip the title and festive :-) |
| 06:05 |
Kacey |
have you fixed the mapgen issue yet? |
| 06:06 |
VanessaE |
I restarted it |
| 06:06 |
kaeza |
juyst great... it's raining now |
| 06:06 |
kaeza |
so fck beach day tomorrow |
| 06:06 |
Jordach |
VanessaE, how much room does the vps have |
| 06:06 |
Kacey |
ok so that means my skin is on? |
| 06:07 |
VanessaE |
you know something is seriously screwed up when I can't even get it to load more than the immediate spawn area (it eventually loaded after waiting about 6 or 7 minutes) and I'm running the client on the same machine as the server. |
| 06:07 |
mauvebic |
you can have a snow day here |
| 06:07 |
Jordach |
is this your own pc? |
| 06:07 |
VanessaE |
Jordach: it's my PC, and it presently has 16GB free in the drive the server's files are on. |
| 06:07 |
Jordach |
try windows. might be faster.. *sniggers* |
| 06:07 |
VanessaE |
>:-( |
| 06:07 |
leo_rockway |
kaeza: the rain didn't last much here. But they say it's going to rain a lot more in a few hours. |
| 06:07 |
Kacey |
brb |
| 06:08 |
Jordach |
VanessaE, i ran a server off this pc before and it ran xp |
| 06:08 |
Jordach |
7 people without issues |
| 06:08 |
VanessaE |
Jordach: something has severely broken in the server code if it can't even stay up 6 hours without a restart. I don't mean to bitch, but this has gotta be fixed. |
| 06:09 |
Jordach |
did any commit recently change server.cpp |
| 06:10 |
VanessaE |
checking... |
| 06:10 |
kaeza |
leo_rockway: hope that's true |
| 06:11 |
VanessaE |
Jordach: plenty of stuff in november. |
| 06:11 |
Jordach |
when was 0.4.4 stable |
| 06:11 |
VanessaE |
damned if I can even begin to figure out where to look |
| 06:12 |
VanessaE |
Dec. 6 |
| 06:13 |
mauvebic |
my map is over 4 months old and it has no problems :/ |
| 06:13 |
VanessaE |
yeah but do you run a server 24/7? |
| 06:13 |
|
aldobr joined #minetest |
| 06:14 |
|
Jeija joined #minetest |
| 06:14 |
mauvebic |
do you really think uptime is the issue? |
| 06:14 |
VanessaE |
yes. |
| 06:15 |
VanessaE |
For the first few hours it's fine. after about 4-6 hours, somewhere in that range, the map generator/loader/something-er stops sending useful data to the client |
| 06:15 |
aldobr |
hi all |
| 06:15 |
mauvebic |
maybe one of your players inadvertenly did something to cause a mod conflict? |
| 06:15 |
VanessaE |
in effect the map won't load then. |
| 06:16 |
VanessaE |
a mod conflict would be reflected in the CPU usage of the server e.g. lockups or so. that isn't happening. |
| 06:16 |
mauvebic |
well this one time i accidentally shot a ball of 100 saplings, the map wouldn't load until i disabled saplings |
| 06:17 |
VanessaE |
the map stops loading, but the CPU usage stays tolerable (less than 50% anyway) and people can still chat - and I can execute commands e.g. /status or /time and get instant responses. |
| 06:19 |
mauvebic |
how much of the map you can save? |
| 06:19 |
VanessaE |
eh? |
| 06:19 |
aldobr |
why generated map chunks are stored ? why dont just store the deltas and have the client side generate chunks everytime the player enter then ? |
| 06:19 |
mauvebic |
well, do you have the same problem with backup copies? |
| 06:19 |
VanessaE |
the map is only 207 MB. |
| 06:19 |
mauvebic |
compressed? |
| 06:20 |
VanessaE |
mauvebic: raw. |
| 06:20 |
mauvebic |
mine is twice that raw and i dont have that problem ::/ |
| 06:20 |
mauvebic |
but did you try backups? |
| 06:20 |
VanessaE |
I've tried before. |
| 06:20 |
VanessaE |
at least once. |
| 06:20 |
mauvebic |
and you get the same thing? |
| 06:20 |
VanessaE |
yup. |
| 06:20 |
mauvebic |
i still vote mod conflict then |
| 06:20 |
VanessaE |
and thexyz confirmed that my map files are not corrupted. |
| 06:21 |
VanessaE |
define "mod conflict" |
| 06:22 |
mauvebic |
well just with default mods and my modpack oldcoder and i had a hard time getting my doors to work |
| 06:22 |
OldCoder |
Oh? |
| 06:22 |
OldCoder |
Yes |
| 06:22 |
mauvebic |
they wouldn't open for some reason lol |
| 06:22 |
mauvebic |
i still haven't found the bug so i left the doors open in the meantime lol |
| 06:23 |
VanessaE |
well this is all-grey screen no map at all kind of stuff. Not some mod fails to operate. |
| 06:23 |
mauvebic |
mod conflict can be anything: having two mods use the same global variable name (can happen with lots of mods) |
| 06:23 |
mauvebic |
well its not a mod fail but something could be eating up the CPU or causing a recursive cycle |
| 06:23 |
|
neko259 joined #minetest |
| 06:23 |
Jordach |
like mesecons |
| 06:23 |
VanessaE |
eating CPU? it only uses about 40% or so when it does this. |
| 06:24 |
VanessaE |
it's a bug in the engine, plain and simple. |
| 06:24 |
mauvebic |
nakedfury told me about two or three mods he had that shared the same craft |
| 06:24 |
mauvebic |
who else has the same problem then? |
| 06:24 |
VanessaE |
thexyz had it happen once. oldcoder's servers used to do it, too. |
| 06:24 |
mauvebic |
until he went with levelDB? |
| 06:25 |
VanessaE |
so it would appear. |
| 06:25 |
OldCoder |
Could be masking the problem |
| 06:25 |
Jordach |
could sql be locking minetest out of access |
| 06:25 |
mauvebic |
if it was a db thing, my world should be crapping out too? |
| 06:25 |
Jordach |
when minetest is the current host |
| 06:25 |
OldCoder |
mauvebic, You mean... only a db problem |
| 06:26 |
mauvebic |
where are metas stored, the db? |
| 06:27 |
|
Kacey joined #minetest |
| 06:27 |
Kacey |
back |
| 06:28 |
mauvebic |
vanessae does the mapper app still work on your world? |
| 06:29 |
VanessaE |
yep |
| 06:29 |
VanessaE |
kacey, server going down. |
| 06:30 |
mauvebic |
the mapper could be tweaked to make a giant WEP |
| 06:31 |
aldobr |
my question was not answered :/ |
| 06:31 |
aldobr |
why generated map chunks are stored ? why dont just store the deltas and have the client side generate chunks everytime the player enter then ? |
| 06:31 |
aldobr |
*then = them |
| 06:31 |
kaeza |
aldobr: hi |
| 06:32 |
kaeza |
merry christmas |
| 06:32 |
aldobr |
doesnt make sense |
| 06:32 |
kaeza |
^_^ |
| 06:32 |
aldobr |
merry christmas |
| 06:32 |
kaeza |
that's also a question of mine |
| 06:32 |
Kacey |
back? |
| 06:32 |
aldobr |
its quite inefficent |
| 06:32 |
Kacey |
wow |
| 06:32 |
Kacey |
when will server be up? |
| 06:32 |
kaeza |
that should relive some traffic from the server |
| 06:32 |
aldobr |
the whole point of a procedurally generated map is that you dont use a lot of memmory |
| 06:33 |
aldobr |
cause anything can be recalled from the generating algorithm |
| 06:33 |
aldobr |
just store whatever change the players done to the map |
| 06:33 |
aldobr |
using a kind of journal |
| 06:33 |
kaeza |
marktraceur: since you are "closer" to the core dev team, can this be implemented? |
| 06:33 |
aldobr |
indexed by x,y,z of chunks |
| 06:34 |
aldobr |
and thats all |
| 06:35 |
Kacey |
VanessaE is server up? |
| 06:35 |
VanessaE |
it is now. |
| 06:35 |
Kacey |
k |
| 06:36 |
aldobr |
when player enters an unloaded chunk |
| 06:36 |
aldobr |
it generates that chunk locally |
| 06:36 |
VanessaE |
aldobr: maybe it's faster to store the map and then reload it than to just re-generate it all the time? |
| 06:36 |
aldobr |
if the random seed is the same as the server, the result will be the same (cause the number is pseudorandom) |
| 06:36 |
aldobr |
the client then asks the server for the deltas relative to that chunk |
| 06:36 |
kaeza |
VanessaE: what we mean is to just send the delta (i.e difference) of the map |
| 06:37 |
aldobr |
and apply the deltas to the chunk |
| 06:37 |
aldobr |
and show the result to player |
| 06:37 |
kaeza |
and initially generate the map on the client |
| 06:37 |
aldobr |
VanessaE, look at incremental backups |
| 06:37 |
aldobr |
they work right like that |
| 06:37 |
aldobr |
or mpeg video |
| 06:37 |
aldobr |
same theory |
| 06:37 |
VanessaE |
yes I know. |
| 06:38 |
aldobr |
its a kind of compression |
| 06:38 |
VanessaE |
but you still have to repeatedly call the map generator code, or you have to load the generated data from disk/memory - one or the other. |
| 06:38 |
aldobr |
this is the size x speed constraint |
| 06:38 |
kaeza |
but it's still faster than sending the map over the network |
| 06:38 |
aldobr |
usually network + disk is slower than processor these days |
| 06:39 |
kaeza |
and less resource intensive for the network |
| 06:39 |
VanessaE |
that much is probably true, but whether that's what the server does now or not, I dunno |
| 06:39 |
aldobr |
the server generates the chunk |
| 06:39 |
aldobr |
as soon as someone visits it |
| 06:39 |
aldobr |
then it stores the chunk into sqlite |
| 06:39 |
aldobr |
no matter if the chunk was modified or not |
| 06:39 |
kaeza |
is celeron55 here? |
| 06:39 |
aldobr |
so if you are simply walking from point A to B |
| 06:39 |
aldobr |
you are generating or reloading chunks from sqlite |
| 06:40 |
Kacey |
VanessaE the server shut down |
| 06:40 |
aldobr |
even if you dont change a single block |
| 06:40 |
VanessaE |
sigh. your use of the water can crashed it. |
| 06:40 |
Kacey |
ooh |
| 06:41 |
VanessaE |
restarted. |
| 06:41 |
Kacey |
lava can can really dig though lol |
| 06:41 |
VanessaE |
don't use the water can until RealBadAngel fixes it. |
| 06:41 |
VanessaE |
well water or lava, I dunno which |
| 06:41 |
Kacey |
water can works fine |
| 06:42 |
aldobr |
the side effect of client map generation is that the task is offloaded from server |
| 06:43 |
VanessaE |
..onto a client that needs all the CPU power it can get? no way. |
| 06:44 |
aldobr |
client needs all cpu power ? |
| 06:44 |
aldobr |
when i run local game |
| 06:44 |
VanessaE |
Kacey: restarted the server, without water/lava cans enabled. |
| 06:44 |
aldobr |
i get 9fps |
| 06:44 |
aldobr |
sometimes 1fps |
| 06:45 |
aldobr |
when i connect to a remote server i get 60fps |
| 06:45 |
aldobr |
so the server is the main power hog here |
| 06:45 |
Kacey |
no im going to get off for the night so goodnight and merry christmas |
| 06:45 |
aldobr |
and my machine is quite old and crappy |
| 06:45 |
VanessaE |
and if you offload mapgen to the client, how does that help the client machine's CPU load? |
| 06:45 |
|
JesseH joined #minetest |
| 06:45 |
aldobr |
is client cpu really a constraint ? |
| 06:46 |
VanessaE |
you're just moving the problem from one side of the network to the other instead of fixing the root issue |
| 06:46 |
VanessaE |
yes, it is. |
| 06:46 |
aldobr |
i dont believe |
| 06:46 |
aldobr |
like i said |
| 06:46 |
aldobr |
from experience |
| 06:46 |
VanessaE |
this is a 3d game, you need all the CPU you can get to pour into the rendering engine |
| 06:46 |
aldobr |
hmmm |
| 06:46 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 06:46 |
aldobr |
doesnt work that way |
| 06:46 |
aldobr |
being 3d means nothin |
| 06:46 |
aldobr |
mordern GPUs does almost all work |
| 06:47 |
aldobr |
even crappy ones like mine |
| 06:47 |
VanessaE |
not here they don't. |
| 06:47 |
aldobr |
i have a 32bit GPU |
| 06:47 |
aldobr |
yet i get 60FPS when i play on a remote server |
| 06:47 |
OldCoder |
NEWS U.S. worlds restarted with updates changes fixes. |
| 06:47 |
aldobr |
its a nForce integrated GPU |
| 06:47 |
aldobr |
VanessaE |
| 06:47 |
aldobr |
if the client generates the map |
| 06:47 |
VanessaE |
if that were the case, my HD6870 video card would be able to sustain no less than 200 fps. As it is, it can barely do 50-60, because a lot of the engine runs on the CPU, not the GPU |
| 06:47 |
aldobr |
you divide the load by the ammount of players |
| 06:48 |
aldobr |
simple math |
| 06:48 |
aldobr |
two players are connected to the server |
| 06:48 |
aldobr |
both request a new map chunk |
| 06:48 |
VanessaE |
so how does the server know what the land is like? |
| 06:48 |
aldobr |
a single CPU (the server's one) will have to generate both chunks |
| 06:48 |
aldobr |
using current model |
| 06:48 |
VanessaE |
it has to generate the map too. |
| 06:48 |
aldobr |
using my proposed model |
| 06:48 |
aldobr |
two CPUs generates a map chunk each |
| 06:49 |
aldobr |
thats the load/2 |
| 06:49 |
aldobr |
if there are 8 players |
| 06:49 |
VanessaE |
so you propose having the client send its generated data back to the server? |
| 06:49 |
aldobr |
load/8 |
| 06:49 |
aldobr |
or |
| 06:49 |
aldobr |
the server not generating data at all |
| 06:49 |
VanessaE |
terrible idea. that has "security hole" written all over it. |
| 06:49 |
aldobr |
server only need to know the map on certain cases |
| 06:49 |
aldobr |
security hole ? are we guarding the fort knox or playing an opensource game ? |
| 06:50 |
VanessaE |
the client must be treated as an untrusted, hostile machine. |
| 06:50 |
aldobr |
i can hack the hell out of the source code in the current model |
| 06:50 |
VanessaE |
otherwise some idiot with a hacked client comes in and starts generating lava lakes or other shit |
| 06:50 |
aldobr |
you cant |
| 06:50 |
VanessaE |
and using hacked mapgen to destroy buildings |
| 06:50 |
aldobr |
the server generates a chunk |
| 06:50 |
aldobr |
but ONLY when needed |
| 06:50 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 06:50 |
VanessaE |
that's how it works now. |
| 06:50 |
aldobr |
deltas still need to be sent to the server |
| 06:51 |
aldobr |
and they can be stamped with the player name |
| 06:51 |
aldobr |
who done then |
| 06:51 |
aldobr |
*them |
| 06:51 |
aldobr |
if a server side lua script access minetest.env |
| 06:51 |
aldobr |
THEN the server generates the chunk and caches it |
| 06:51 |
aldobr |
else |
| 06:52 |
aldobr |
it lets this to the player |
| 06:52 |
Jordach |
anyways, merry xmas |
| 06:52 |
aldobr |
if security is really a problem |
| 06:52 |
aldobr |
i dont believe current model is out of flaws |
| 06:53 |
VanessaE |
the current model is being rewritten by hmmmm anyway |
| 06:53 |
aldobr |
does the server validate ALL player actions ? |
| 06:53 |
VanessaE |
yes it does. |
| 06:53 |
VanessaE |
at least if anticheat is turned on |
| 06:53 |
aldobr |
what happens if i hack my client to allow me to fly ? |
| 06:53 |
VanessaE |
otherwise it kinda stops caring where the player is. |
| 06:54 |
VanessaE |
I'm sure the server can refuse to let you actually fly, you just wouldn't see it |
| 06:54 |
VanessaE |
just as anticheat keeps you from running too fast |
| 06:54 |
aldobr |
i believe the client can simply ignore the server |
| 06:54 |
aldobr |
and fly anyway :P |
| 06:54 |
VanessaE |
the server has the ultimate authority on where the player is on the map. |
| 06:55 |
aldobr |
actually |
| 06:55 |
aldobr |
the anti-cheat is a source of lag |
| 06:55 |
VanessaE |
in a properly designed system, all the client can do is say "I am here x,y,z" and the server either says "ok" or "no you aren't", and disabled player's actions in the latter case. |
| 06:55 |
aldobr |
disabling anti-cheat makes the server run much faster |
| 06:55 |
OldCoder |
Hence we do it |
| 06:55 |
VanessaE |
yup, I have it disabled on mine because getting lag-teleported all over the map sucks. |
| 06:56 |
aldobr |
i dont believe a feature that decreases functionality is worth it |
| 06:56 |
aldobr |
people will simply disable it and go on |
| 06:56 |
aldobr |
better solution would be to create a watch command |
| 06:56 |
aldobr |
that allows a mod to see everything that the player is doing |
| 06:57 |
aldobr |
the mod can then watch suspected cheaters and ban then accordingly |
| 06:57 |
aldobr |
if the player is hacking the mapgen |
| 06:57 |
aldobr |
the player changes will not make sense to the moderator correctly generated map |
| 06:58 |
aldobr |
so the cheat will be obvious |
| 06:58 |
hmmmm |
aldobr, it's like that because map generation was (and currently still is in the master branch) horrendously slow |
| 06:58 |
VanessaE |
but how is the server to know what the correctly-generated map looks like? |
| 06:59 |
aldobr |
the server dont need |
| 06:59 |
hmmmm |
for what it's worth, minecraft stores the entire chunk too. i know of another minecraft clone that does what you say, however |
| 06:59 |
aldobr |
the mod is a client with special privs |
| 06:59 |
aldobr |
he attaches itself to the client |
| 06:59 |
aldobr |
but his own map generator will be a correct one |
| 07:00 |
aldobr |
when the hacker hacks the map generator |
| 07:00 |
aldobr |
there will be a difference between the mod's and the hacker maps |
| 07:00 |
aldobr |
so whatever the hacker does, will make no sense for the mod machine |
| 07:00 |
VanessaE |
terrible idea. |
| 07:00 |
aldobr |
"he broke a node at position x,y,z" |
| 07:00 |
aldobr |
mod machine : "theres nothing to be broke at x,y,z" |
| 07:01 |
aldobr |
"he placed a node at x,y,z" |
| 07:01 |
aldobr |
mod machine : "you cant put a node mid-air" |
| 07:01 |
VanessaE |
the server HAS to have some kind of semblance of the map in order to decide if a client's action is a legal one. |
| 07:01 |
aldobr |
it can do |
| 07:01 |
aldobr |
but ONLY IF TRULLY NEEDED |
| 07:01 |
VanessaE |
otherwise the hacker will just hack the *entire* client, including client-side mapgen |
| 07:01 |
aldobr |
like when a script calls minetest.env:get_node |
| 07:01 |
|
Jeija joined #minetest |
| 07:01 |
aldobr |
VanessaE you still dont understand |
| 07:01 |
VanessaE |
I do onderstand |
| 07:01 |
aldobr |
attach the mod to the client |
| 07:01 |
aldobr |
well |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
but you're treating this as if the client can be trusted at all. |
| 07:02 |
hmmmm |
none of that is necessary at all, if somebody wants to cheat they can in any imaginable scenario |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
it cannot be. |
| 07:02 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 07:02 |
VanessaE |
the client is NOT trustworthy. |
| 07:02 |
aldobr |
nope <- to vanessa |
| 07:02 |
aldobr |
hmmmm yes i believe that too |
| 07:02 |
aldobr |
VanessaE |
| 07:02 |
aldobr |
the cheater will have to save his deltas to the server |
| 07:02 |
aldobr |
right ? |
| 07:02 |
aldobr |
or else he will be connected to the server but living in a parallel universe without effect on other players |
| 07:03 |
VanessaE |
basic network security 101: the client machine cannot be trusted. The server must be in a position to validate all decisions made by the client. |
| 07:03 |
aldobr |
send a copy of the deltas to the mod machine |
| 07:03 |
aldobr |
as if the mod where doing then |
| 07:03 |
aldobr |
omfg VanessaE i am a network engenieer |
| 07:03 |
VanessaE |
so? |
| 07:03 |
aldobr |
the moderator receives the hacker deltas |
| 07:03 |
aldobr |
and apply then as if it was him doing it |
| 07:03 |
VanessaE |
and the moderator runs on the server. |
| 07:03 |
aldobr |
but the moderator mapgen is correct |
| 07:03 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 07:04 |
VanessaE |
then your idea will not work. |
| 07:04 |
aldobr |
the moderator can be anywhere on the universe |
| 07:04 |
aldobr |
if you dont trust the moderator |
| 07:04 |
VanessaE |
you're talking about a three-machine scenarion? |
| 07:04 |
VanessaE |
scenario* |
| 07:04 |
aldobr |
then nothing on the server will save you from cheaters |
| 07:04 |
aldobr |
VanessaE |
| 07:04 |
aldobr |
instead of having the server validate anything |
| 07:04 |
aldobr |
simply allow the mods to watch over the back of players |
| 07:05 |
aldobr |
a moderator is much more trustworth than a machine |
| 07:05 |
VanessaE |
*facepalm* |
| 07:05 |
aldobr |
you dont want to understand |
| 07:05 |
aldobr |
so i cant explain better |
| 07:05 |
aldobr |
userstamp the deltas |
| 07:05 |
VanessaE |
I understand perfectly. |
| 07:05 |
aldobr |
so the moderator can rollback the changes |
| 07:05 |
aldobr |
if you do |
| 07:05 |
aldobr |
i cant see your point |
| 07:06 |
VanessaE |
I used to be a system administrator at what others are saying counts as at least a medium-sized web/internet provider. |
| 07:07 |
VanessaE |
my coding skills weren't up to the task, which why I didn't stay long. But in the short time I worked there I came to understand more details than I care to remember about how networks work, how proper client<->server relationships work, and what not to do |
| 07:07 |
aldobr |
VanessaE |
| 07:07 |
aldobr |
i KNOW that you cant trust the remote client |
| 07:08 |
VanessaE |
and the first thing you never do is put any part of the server's files under the control of the client, in this case the world map. |
| 07:08 |
aldobr |
but my model dont have problem with that ! |
| 07:08 |
aldobr |
let the guy do watever he wants |
| 07:08 |
aldobr |
is a journal |
| 07:08 |
aldobr |
you can simply roll it back |
| 07:08 |
VanessaE |
your model passes client commands through to a "moderator". which is still a SERVER. |
| 07:08 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 07:08 |
aldobr |
it doesnt |
| 07:08 |
aldobr |
the client sends his changes to the server |
| 07:08 |
aldobr |
the server sends to the mod who asked to watch someone |
| 07:09 |
aldobr |
but everything goes on |
| 07:09 |
|
hmmmm joined #minetest |
| 07:09 |
aldobr |
if the mod thinks the player is a cheater |
| 07:09 |
aldobr |
he rollsback the player changes and ban it |
| 07:09 |
aldobr |
simply |
| 07:09 |
VanessaE |
and how does the moderator know? |
| 07:09 |
aldobr |
redcrab's got a lot of griefers recently |
| 07:09 |
aldobr |
all of then got busted one way or the other |
| 07:10 |
aldobr |
because people simply suspect and report to the mod |
| 07:10 |
VanessaE |
they all got busted because the system has a rollback recorder. |
| 07:10 |
VanessaE |
and that takes place on the minetest server instance. |
| 07:10 |
aldobr |
just like the map model i am proposing :) |
| 07:11 |
aldobr |
the whole database is a journal |
| 07:11 |
OldCoder |
Hmm |
| 07:11 |
aldobr |
quite apt to be rolled back |
| 07:11 |
aldobr |
wenever the mod wants |
| 07:11 |
VanessaE |
but the map data needed by that rollback recorder to be able to undo griefing etc. has to come from *somewhere* |
| 07:11 |
OldCoder |
TIP: If you wish to see me and PM me then wait more than 60 seconds please :P |
| 07:11 |
VanessaE |
and it CANNOT come from the client, which means it has to come from the server. |
| 07:11 |
* OldCoder |
gets PMd and people do not wait |
| 07:11 |
aldobr |
VanessaE |
| 07:11 |
OldCoder |
If one of you knows Aqua tell him that |
| 07:11 |
aldobr |
a journal dont need anything but the journal to be able to roll back |
| 07:12 |
VanessaE |
a journal also needs data to operate on. |
| 07:12 |
aldobr |
thats the whole point of a journalling file system |
| 07:12 |
aldobr |
hm |
| 07:12 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 07:12 |
aldobr |
it would be something like |
| 07:12 |
VanessaE |
that data includes who has permission to operate on a given block |
| 07:12 |
aldobr |
player a changed node x,y,z at time timestamp from default:mese to default:air |
| 07:12 |
VanessaE |
not just the blocks themselves. |
| 07:13 |
aldobr |
player b changed node x,y,z at time timestamp from default:air to default:dirt |
| 07:13 |
aldobr |
thats all that is needed |
| 07:13 |
VanessaE |
yes, and how does the server know that default:mese was there to begin with? |
| 07:13 |
aldobr |
index the database by player, time and x,y,z |
| 07:13 |
aldobr |
he dont need |
| 07:13 |
VanessaE |
yes it does. |
| 07:13 |
aldobr |
why ? |
| 07:14 |
VanessaE |
because then the client could change default:stone -> default:air but it's really mese being changed. |
| 07:14 |
VanessaE |
or literally any other random block. |
| 07:14 |
aldobr |
and ? |
| 07:14 |
aldobr |
ok |
| 07:14 |
aldobr |
he is cheating |
| 07:14 |
aldobr |
he will send that command to the server |
| 07:14 |
aldobr |
i want to change x,y,z from mese to air |
| 07:14 |
VanessaE |
yes, and how is the server supposed to detect the cheating if it doesn't have a copy of the map? |
| 07:14 |
aldobr |
the mod is attached to him |
| 07:14 |
aldobr |
he will be proxied that command too |
| 07:15 |
aldobr |
the mod machine says : i cant change from mese to air because theres no mese there ! |
| 07:15 |
VanessaE |
right |
| 07:15 |
aldobr |
the mod knows the guy is cheating |
| 07:15 |
aldobr |
bans him |
| 07:15 |
VanessaE |
stop. |
| 07:15 |
VanessaE |
now, how does the moderator know there wasn't any mese there? |
| 07:15 |
VanessaE |
where does that information come from? |
| 07:15 |
aldobr |
because the mod is using a client that generates the map just like any other client |
| 07:15 |
VanessaE |
it comes from a map generator somewhere not under the influence of the client. |
| 07:16 |
aldobr |
yes |
| 07:16 |
aldobr |
and the cheater will have to hack the mod machine to influence the mod machine |
| 07:16 |
VanessaE |
and where is that map generator running? it ain't the client, and it obviously ain't the moderator, so there's only one place left: The server. |
| 07:16 |
aldobr |
he cant or at least its much harder |
| 07:16 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 07:16 |
aldobr |
you still dont understand |
| 07:16 |
VanessaE |
look |
| 07:16 |
aldobr |
its a distributed function |
| 07:16 |
VanessaE |
stop. |
| 07:17 |
VanessaE |
the "moderator" is still a server. One way or another, no matter how you slice it, it is a server that is not running on the same hardware instance as the client. |
| 07:17 |
VanessaE |
the client sends its changes to the "moderator"....to a server. |
| 07:17 |
VanessaE |
you're just moving the problem into a different place |
| 07:17 |
VanessaE |
an extra layer of abstraction |
| 07:17 |
VanessaE |
this solves nothing in the long run |
| 07:18 |
aldobr |
but the moderator is not running on the same machine as the server |
| 07:18 |
VanessaE |
yes, I get that |
| 07:18 |
aldobr |
so the burden is still split between different machines |
| 07:18 |
VanessaE |
so where is it running?> |
| 07:18 |
aldobr |
in his own machine ? |
| 07:18 |
aldobr |
*on |
| 07:18 |
VanessaE |
whose own machine? |
| 07:18 |
VanessaE |
the person running the minetest server or the one running the client? |
| 07:18 |
aldobr |
lets suppose i am a moderator at redcrab's |
| 07:19 |
VanessaE |
or a third piece of hardware somewhere else? |
| 07:19 |
aldobr |
that machine will be the machine i am using to talk to you here |
| 07:19 |
aldobr |
and the server will be whatever redcrab's use |
| 07:19 |
aldobr |
a third piece |
| 07:19 |
VanessaE |
wait a minute now you're misusing words. are we talking about a program that intercepts these actions or are we talking about a user who has some kind of administrator access to the server? |
| 07:20 |
aldobr |
<aldobr> better solution would be to create a watch command |
| 07:20 |
aldobr |
watch priv |
| 07:20 |
aldobr |
watch command |
| 07:20 |
VanessaE |
right, so a piece of software. |
| 07:20 |
VanessaE |
which runs where? |
| 07:20 |
VanessaE |
a third machine somewhere in the aether? |
| 07:20 |
aldobr |
makes someone receive a copy of whatever some player is doing |
| 07:21 |
aldobr |
the third machine is the machine the mod is using to play the game |
| 07:21 |
aldobr |
a client will have to generate a chunk |
| 07:21 |
VanessaE |
so you're proposing 24/7 human intervention by way of a watchdog process? |
| 07:21 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 07:21 |
aldobr |
never needs to be 24/7 |
| 07:21 |
aldobr |
just needs someone suspecting someone else |
| 07:21 |
aldobr |
and reporting |
| 07:21 |
aldobr |
this works on redcrab's |
| 07:22 |
VanessaE |
we already do that now |
| 07:22 |
aldobr |
all griefers get caught eventually |
| 07:22 |
aldobr |
yes VanessaE |
| 07:22 |
aldobr |
but you raised a security point against the delta model |
| 07:22 |
aldobr |
and i explained why that security point is not worth the trouble |
| 07:22 |
VanessaE |
I raised a security point against the model of letting the client generate the map and not making the server do the same |
| 07:22 |
VanessaE |
which is a bad idea. |
| 07:22 |
aldobr |
if the current model is keept on security basis |
| 07:22 |
aldobr |
i am showing you how the security would work at a different model |
| 07:23 |
aldobr |
most server owners disable anti-cheat anyway |
| 07:23 |
aldobr |
so... |
| 07:23 |
VanessaE |
your idea will not work. |
| 07:23 |
aldobr |
kaeza did you understand my idea ? |
| 07:23 |
kaeza |
hm? |
| 07:23 |
* kaeza |
is scrolling up |
| 07:23 |
aldobr |
kaeza hunf |
| 07:23 |
aldobr |
kaeza |
| 07:23 |
aldobr |
have the players generate the map |
| 07:23 |
aldobr |
the server only generates the map if needed |
| 07:23 |
aldobr |
the server stores only deltas |
| 07:24 |
aldobr |
and send those to players |
| 07:24 |
aldobr |
if theres a cheater on the server |
| 07:24 |
VanessaE |
you're asking the server to accept data from the client that cannot be trusted, data that has to be validated somewhere between the player clicking the mouse or executing some client-side script and the server saving those changes to disk. |
| 07:24 |
aldobr |
a moderator can attach himself to the cheater and what him build |
| 07:24 |
VanessaE |
somewhere, the server HAS to be able to say "no, you can't do that". |
| 07:24 |
VanessaE |
and the only way it can do that is to know what the map looks like and who has rights to modify a given area. |
| 07:24 |
aldobr |
if he is cheating the map generator, the moderator will see this |
| 07:24 |
aldobr |
and ban/rollback him |
| 07:24 |
aldobr |
VanessaE its a kind of delayed check |
| 07:25 |
aldobr |
because anything can be rolled back |
| 07:25 |
aldobr |
hm |
| 07:25 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 07:25 |
VanessaE |
but we can already do that now without help from some client-side map generator |
| 07:25 |
aldobr |
rights can be managed in an abstract model |
| 07:25 |
aldobr |
you dont need to know the map |
| 07:25 |
aldobr |
to know that player a have no right over x1,y1,z1 to x2,y2,z2 |
| 07:26 |
VanessaE |
you need to know whether there is something there to modify in the first place. |
| 07:26 |
aldobr |
because you simply need to check if the player the player wants to build falls within the boundaries of a protected area |
| 07:26 |
VanessaE |
that means having terrain |
| 07:26 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 07:26 |
VanessaE |
yes. |
| 07:26 |
aldobr |
player sends a delta at position 10,20,30 |
| 07:26 |
VanessaE |
otherwise you validate every attempt to dig at air too |
| 07:26 |
VanessaE |
which is wasteful |
| 07:26 |
aldobr |
server has a hash table with protected areas |
| 07:26 |
aldobr |
10,20,30 falls within a protected area that the player has no right over |
| 07:26 |
aldobr |
serve rejects the delta |
| 07:26 |
aldobr |
without having to know whats at 10,20,30 |
| 07:27 |
VanessaE |
mmh |
| 07:27 |
aldobr |
player reports being at 10,20,30 |
| 07:27 |
aldobr |
100ms later he reports being at 10000,30000,4000 |
| 07:27 |
aldobr |
server finds this suspicious and rejects the change |
| 07:27 |
aldobr |
without having to know anything about the map |
| 07:28 |
VanessaE |
ok now you're starting to make some sense. |
| 07:28 |
VanessaE |
you were being incredibly vague before. |
| 07:28 |
aldobr |
thats how intrusion detection works, by the way |
| 07:28 |
VanessaE |
but you still have one problem to solve: |
| 07:28 |
VanessaE |
the map generator is, as hmmmm said, horrendously slow. Anyone who has ever played in single player on an older machine - the target hardware for this game mind you - will confirm that. |
| 07:29 |
VanessaE |
you cannot run the map generator on the client, otherwise you're just moving the load to a machine that already has enough to do rendering the display. |
| 07:29 |
aldobr |
V0id |
| 07:29 |
VanessaE |
and Minetest doesn't use the GPU to its fullest potential. |
| 07:29 |
aldobr |
ops |
| 07:29 |
aldobr |
VanessaE from experience |
| 07:29 |
aldobr |
i am a crappy machine user |
| 07:29 |
aldobr |
athlon xp with nforce 430 gpu |
| 07:29 |
VanessaE |
Minetest is as much CPU-bound as it is GPU-bound. |
| 07:30 |
aldobr |
its a crappy 32bits shared memory GPU |
| 07:30 |
aldobr |
32bits ! |
| 07:30 |
aldobr |
when i run single player |
| 07:30 |
aldobr |
i cant get more than 9fps |
| 07:30 |
aldobr |
when i connect to redcrab's i get 60fps |
| 07:30 |
aldobr |
so the server logic is the burden |
| 07:30 |
aldobr |
not the rendering |
| 07:30 |
aldobr |
if the rendering was heavy |
| 07:30 |
aldobr |
my machine would be unable to cope |
| 07:31 |
VanessaE |
rendering 16-pixel textures on a 64-bit machine with an HD6870 video card, I should be able to get 200+ fps (not that my monitor can display it). It can barely sustain 50 or 60. This is not the mark of a GPU-bound game. |
| 07:31 |
aldobr |
because i assure you, its a crappy machine |
| 07:31 |
VanessaE |
this is not to say I have a problem with the rendering speed of the game, but the game NEEDS a lot of CPU to get good rendering speeds. |
| 07:31 |
aldobr |
another bottleneck is the serial execution of scripts |
| 07:31 |
VanessaE |
that much is true. |
| 07:31 |
VanessaE |
but that's server-side. |
| 07:31 |
kaeza |
aldobr: I think I understand your point, but as VanessaE said, it's prone to security holes |
| 07:32 |
aldobr |
there should be a way to parallelize the scripts |
| 07:32 |
kaeza |
what I intend instead is this: |
| 07:32 |
aldobr |
i dont enough of lua to understand how |
| 07:32 |
aldobr |
*know |
| 07:33 |
aldobr |
maybe making all objects thread safe |
| 07:33 |
aldobr |
with locks |
| 07:33 |
aldobr |
so the scripts will sleep while the interpreter cant get a lock to a object |
| 07:33 |
aldobr |
but there will be the problem of unbounded nondeterminism |
| 07:33 |
kaeza |
the server calcs a hash for the map block. the client calcs a hash of the map block. since both know the seed, both can generate the same map \ |
| 07:34 |
aldobr |
kaeza |
| 07:34 |
aldobr |
why generate the map at the server ? |
| 07:34 |
marktraceur |
kaeza: Did someone answer your question? |
| 07:34 |
aldobr |
i believe the map should be generated only if a script tries to access it |
| 07:34 |
kaeza |
now, if the hash does not match, then the client negotiates with the server about the "changes" (or delta) of the chunk \ |
| 07:35 |
kaeza |
marktraceur: what question? |
| 07:35 |
aldobr |
kaeza the client asks for the deltas, the server returns an empty result |
| 07:35 |
aldobr |
whats the difference ? |
| 07:35 |
kaeza |
that's good \ |
| 07:35 |
aldobr |
the server task is just two tasks : syncronize players and performe sanity checks |
| 07:35 |
aldobr |
let all the rest be distributed |
| 07:36 |
aldobr |
if you cheat |
| 07:36 |
VanessaE |
how do you guarantee that all players are generating from the same seed? |
| 07:36 |
aldobr |
but dont send your changes to the server |
| 07:36 |
kaeza |
but this "delta generation" is only needed at map load (or new chunk) |
| 07:36 |
aldobr |
its like living in a parallel universe |
| 07:36 |
aldobr |
like psychosis |
| 07:36 |
aldobr |
doesnt matter |
| 07:36 |
kaeza |
VanessaE: through the use of hashed seed in the comm |
| 07:37 |
kaeza |
or a plain one |
| 07:37 |
aldobr |
VanessaE syncronizing random seeds is one of the oldest problems of multiplayer game creation |
| 07:37 |
aldobr |
almost all games use that |
| 07:38 |
aldobr |
the momment the player sends his changes |
| 07:38 |
aldobr |
they can be validated by certain heuristic rules |
| 07:38 |
aldobr |
and cheats can be caught |
| 07:38 |
kaeza |
the client can check at chunk load/gen that the correct seed is being used |
| 07:38 |
aldobr |
an aditional layer is the moderator watching the player |
| 07:38 |
kaeza |
s/client/server/ |
| 07:38 |
VanessaE |
you still keep missing the fundamental issue: the map generator needs CPU to run. If you put it + render on the client, the server has nothing left to do, and so the load is not evenly distributed. |
| 07:39 |
aldobr |
VanessaE it is quite evenly distributed |
| 07:39 |
aldobr |
if player A is 100000 miles apart from player B |
| 07:39 |
aldobr |
player's A computer will not even hear about what player B is doing |
| 07:39 |
aldobr |
so the load is shared |
| 07:39 |
VanessaE |
what happens when you have a bunch of players all in the same general area? that's a lot of wasted effort generating duplicate map data then |
| 07:39 |
aldobr |
8 players generate 8 times the load in a centralized server |
| 07:40 |
aldobr |
8 players generate minimal ammount of load on a distributed model |
| 07:40 |
aldobr |
8 players walk in all 8 directions |
| 07:40 |
aldobr |
N, NW, W, SW, S etc |
| 07:40 |
aldobr |
the server has to generate chunks 8 times |
| 07:40 |
aldobr |
on a distributed model |
| 07:41 |
aldobr |
every player holds his own burden |
| 07:41 |
aldobr |
VanessaE if they are at the same chunk |
| 07:41 |
aldobr |
they generate the chunk 8 times |
| 07:41 |
aldobr |
but they have 8 times teh processing power anyway |
| 07:41 |
aldobr |
8/8 = 1 |
| 07:42 |
kaeza |
hmm |
| 07:42 |
kaeza |
this still misses the point of 'trusting the client' IMHO |
| 07:42 |
kaeza |
so I believe it's a no-no |
| 07:43 |
aldobr |
kaeza |
| 07:43 |
aldobr |
add a new command |
| 07:43 |
aldobr |
-> /watch |
| 07:43 |
aldobr |
-> /watch someone |
| 07:43 |
kaeza |
yes, so? |
| 07:43 |
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Weedy_lappy joined #minetest |
| 07:43 |
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Weedy_lappy joined #minetest |
| 07:43 |
aldobr |
every delta sent by someone is sent to the moderator too |
| 07:44 |
aldobr |
the moderator machine tries to apply the delta to his own map |
| 07:44 |
kaeza |
human intervention should not be needed |
| 07:44 |
aldobr |
kaeza if you generate the map on the server |
| 07:44 |
kaeza |
s/should/must/ |
| 07:44 |
aldobr |
distributing map generation will not solve anything |
| 07:45 |
marktraceur |
kaeza: I think aldobr asked about deterministic mapgen |
| 07:45 |
aldobr |
marktraceur exactly |
| 07:45 |
kaeza |
marktraceur: I understand his point |
| 07:45 |
aldobr |
when the moderator machine tries to apply the delta |
| 07:45 |
aldobr |
it will mismatch |
| 07:45 |
aldobr |
so the machine will show a message in the log |
| 07:45 |
aldobr |
the player is busted |
| 07:46 |
aldobr |
how anti-griefing currently works (usually) ? |
| 07:46 |
aldobr |
someone protects his place |
| 07:46 |
aldobr |
or |
| 07:46 |
marktraceur |
kaeza: As for how possible it is: Possible, but not trivial |
| 07:46 |
aldobr |
someone gets griefed and reports to the moderator |
| 07:46 |
aldobr |
the moderator types /watch griefer |
| 07:46 |
aldobr |
and busts it |
| 07:46 |
kaeza |
marktraceur: I guess that's what we are discussing right now |
| 07:46 |
aldobr |
remmember that the map can be rolled back |
| 07:47 |
aldobr |
because its just a journal registering changes |
| 07:47 |
marktraceur |
kaeza: I guess my big question is "what happens when someone changes the map?" |
| 07:47 |
aldobr |
marktraceur he sends a delta to the server |
| 07:47 |
aldobr |
that validates the delta and stores it into sqlite backend |
| 07:47 |
aldobr |
when a player enters the chunk |
| 07:47 |
aldobr |
he generates the chunk locally |
| 07:48 |
hohoho |
why isn't there a player based rollback? recording all activity of each player then if needed rollback just that one players activity? last I looked at rollback it seemed "general" |
| 07:48 |
aldobr |
then asks the server for any deltas/metas for the chunk |
| 07:48 |
marktraceur |
aldobr: So basically you're talking about deterministic mapgen plus operational transforms? |
| 07:48 |
aldobr |
yep |
| 07:48 |
VanessaE |
hohoho: that's how it works. |
| 07:48 |
kaeza |
marktraceur: the client does as always in this case, and just sends the action to the server, and the server responds with "OK" or "fck u griefer" |
| 07:48 |
marktraceur |
hohoho: There is, you need to enable it |
| 07:48 |
VanessaE |
/rollback playername |
| 07:48 |
hohoho |
might have to look into it then |
| 07:48 |
|
neko259 joined #minetest |
| 07:48 |
sfan5 |
hello anyone |
| 07:48 |
hohoho |
does the rollback use a lot of resources? |
| 07:48 |
kaeza |
hello sfan5 |
| 07:48 |
hohoho |
hey sfan5 |
| 07:49 |
kaeza |
merry christmas! |
| 07:49 |
VanessaE |
morning sfan5 |
| 07:49 |
sfan5 |
merry christmas! |
| 07:49 |
hohoho |
merry christmas as well |
| 07:49 |
VanessaE |
hohoho: not a huge amount, but it does keep a log file on disk that will evntually add up |
| 07:49 |
hohoho |
in a few it will be christmas for even those on east coast of usa |
| 07:49 |
VanessaE |
ok, time for me to get to bed. |
| 07:49 |
VanessaE |
night all. |
| 07:49 |
kaeza |
VanessaE: good night |
| 07:49 |
hohoho |
VanessaE does it trim the rollback eventually or must it be manually removed? |
| 07:49 |
hohoho |
k rest up |
| 07:50 |
hohoho |
night |
| 07:50 |
hohoho |
or should I say good morning |
| 07:50 |
hohoho |
lol |
| 07:50 |
kaeza |
VanessaE: and sowwy for fcking up your mind when you are tired ^_^ |
| 07:51 |
hohoho |
lol if you change fck to fsck id lulz |
| 07:51 |
kaeza |
fsck more yes |
| 07:52 |
kaeza |
a dirty shell command line ^_^ |
| 07:53 |
aldobr |
its 4am here in brazil |
| 07:53 |
aldobr |
i am still eating :P |
| 07:54 |
aldobr |
i dont know other contries christmas traditions |
| 07:54 |
aldobr |
but here we do a lot of food |
| 07:54 |
aldobr |
to celebrate christmas |
| 07:54 |
hohoho |
lol there's a lot of "commands" that sound "dirty" |
| 07:54 |
hohoho |
like strip and touch |
| 07:55 |
hohoho |
finger |
| 07:55 |
hohoho |
lol |
| 07:55 |
hohoho |
anywho |
| 07:55 |
hohoho |
here for christmas it varies |
| 07:55 |
hohoho |
some eat a lot |
| 07:55 |
hohoho |
some don't |
| 07:55 |
hohoho |
some have a lot of presents and others don't |
| 07:55 |
hohoho |
some decorate with beer cans and car parts |
| 07:55 |
hohoho |
some use lights and tress |
| 07:55 |
hohoho |
lol |
| 07:57 |
aldobr |
usually the whole family join together at someone's house |
| 07:57 |
aldobr |
every woman comes with a food |
| 07:57 |
aldobr |
if there are 50 women, there are 50 different types of food |
| 07:58 |
hohoho |
not unless most bring mashed potatoes |
| 07:58 |
aldobr |
i believe most occidental countries do that way |
| 07:58 |
aldobr |
everybody is sleeping while i am playing minetest |
| 07:59 |
aldobr |
its 5am now |
| 07:59 |
aldobr |
nerdy |
| 07:59 |
hohoho |
guilty pleasure |
| 07:59 |
hohoho |
lol |
| 08:02 |
aldobr |
zzzzz |
| 08:14 |
|
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| 08:48 |
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markveidemais joined #minetest |
| 08:48 |
markveidemais |
hi |
| 08:50 |
kaeza1 |
hi markveidemais |
| 08:50 |
markveidemais |
hu |
| 08:50 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr still here? |
| 08:50 |
markveidemais |
hi |
| 08:52 |
kaeza1 |
markveidemais: what's up? |
| 08:52 |
markveidemais |
i am on Zeg9's server |
| 08:52 |
markveidemais |
and Merry Christmas |
| 08:52 |
kaeza1 |
wrong! the sky :D |
| 08:52 |
kaeza1 |
and merry crhistmas to you too! |
| 08:54 |
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| 08:54 |
aldobr |
hi |
| 08:54 |
* kaeza1 |
throws a bucket of {lava|water} to aldobr |
| 08:55 |
kaeza1 |
oh hi! |
| 08:55 |
kaeza1 |
thought you were aslep |
| 08:55 |
kaeza1 |
asleep* |
| 08:55 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 08:55 |
aldobr |
still eating |
| 08:55 |
aldobr |
i was on redcrab's server |
| 08:55 |
aldobr |
it doesnt lag |
| 08:55 |
aldobr |
now |
| 08:55 |
aldobr |
but i |
| 08:55 |
aldobr |
hmm |
| 08:56 |
kaeza1 |
can you share IP? I wnt to play too :( |
| 08:56 |
aldobr |
its like i dont like minetest anymore |
| 08:56 |
kaeza1 |
want* |
| 08:56 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: why? |
| 08:56 |
aldobr |
174.129.196.242 |
| 08:56 |
aldobr |
dunno |
| 08:56 |
aldobr |
i believe i played too much in a too short interval |
| 08:56 |
aldobr |
port 30401 |
| 08:56 |
aldobr |
you need to type /setemail your email.com |
| 08:56 |
aldobr |
and wait for confirmation email |
| 08:56 |
aldobr |
to get interact privs |
| 08:57 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: take a time off; a few days, a week, whatever you feel like |
| 08:57 |
kaeza1 |
you may be stressed |
| 08:59 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: ^ |
| 08:59 |
aldobr |
kaeza1 i will |
| 08:59 |
aldobr |
maybe i will only log on to watch others players build |
| 09:00 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: that may be a good idea. just build, don't code |
| 09:00 |
kaeza1 |
you need a break every now and then |
| 09:01 |
kaeza1 |
or it will drive you crazy |
| 09:04 |
aldobr |
i found another way to check for cheaters |
| 09:04 |
aldobr |
via packing |
| 09:05 |
aldobr |
lets suppose that the map generator says that node x,y,z is a default:dirt |
| 09:05 |
aldobr |
and lets suppose dat player A added a delta saying change x,y,z from default:dirt to default:cobble |
| 09:05 |
aldobr |
later a player B added a delta saying change x,y,z from default:cobble to default:air |
| 09:05 |
aldobr |
now lets suppose that the map is becoming too big |
| 09:06 |
aldobr |
add a new operation called zap |
| 09:06 |
aldobr |
like /zap x,y,z chunk |
| 09:06 |
aldobr |
when you issue zap |
| 09:06 |
aldobr |
the chunk is generated by the server |
| 09:06 |
aldobr |
deltas applied |
| 09:06 |
aldobr |
if deltas mismatch, flag to the mod the name of the user whose delta was cheat |
| 09:07 |
aldobr |
else |
| 09:07 |
aldobr |
delete all deltas |
| 09:07 |
aldobr |
then compare how the map is from mapgen |
| 09:07 |
aldobr |
to how the map is now |
| 09:07 |
aldobr |
and generate new deltas that mape now become then |
| 09:07 |
aldobr |
make the mod issuing /zap to be the player that gets registered for the changes |
| 09:07 |
aldobr |
so |
| 09:07 |
aldobr |
now te map becomes smalelr |
| 09:07 |
aldobr |
*smaller |
| 09:08 |
aldobr |
and cheaters can be caught |
| 09:08 |
aldobr |
even years aftewards |
| 09:08 |
aldobr |
kaeza1 ? |
| 09:08 |
kaeza1 |
hm? |
| 09:08 |
aldobr |
:/ |
| 09:08 |
* kaeza1 |
is reading |
| 09:09 |
aldobr |
i am obsessed with minetest map :P |
| 09:09 |
aldobr |
i will dream about it as soon as i sleep |
| 09:09 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: sorry if I seem distant now, I'm not in a very clear state of mind |
| 09:10 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: may I PM? |
| 09:10 |
aldobr |
yes |
| 09:25 |
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| 09:29 |
Zeg9 |
Hello |
| 09:29 |
aldobr |
hi |
| 09:31 |
kaeza |
see you later channel, gotta sleep |
| 09:31 |
hohoho |
rest up |
| 09:31 |
hohoho |
ttyl |
| 09:32 |
* aldobr |
cant read anymore |
| 09:32 |
aldobr |
my eyes hurts |
| 09:32 |
aldobr |
gonna sleep |
| 09:32 |
aldobr |
zzzzzzzz |
| 09:35 |
hohoho |
well I think its time for me to get some sleep as well |
| 09:35 |
hohoho |
ta ta |
| 09:35 |
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| 09:35 |
kaeza |
good night / morning hohoho |
| 09:35 |
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| 09:48 |
Jeija|OFF |
http://mesecons.net/ << new domain |
| 09:48 |
moltenbot |
Jeija|OFF's link: mesecons |
| 09:53 |
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| 09:58 |
Zeg9 |
Jeija, ads removed ? :D |
| 10:03 |
Jeija |
Sure, no ads anymore |
| 10:11 |
Zeg9 |
I have to go, bye all |
| 10:27 |
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| 10:28 |
Zeg9 |
Forums down? |
| 10:29 |
jin_xi |
seems so |
| 10:43 |
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| 10:56 |
PilzAdam |
Hello everyone! |
| 11:00 |
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| 11:00 |
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Jordach joined #minetest |
| 11:00 |
Jordach |
hey guys |
| 11:00 |
PilzAdam |
hey Jordach |
| 11:01 |
Jordach |
hey PilzAdam -- i see skyrim on your list |
| 11:01 |
Jordach |
PilzAdam, i got a nice headset |
| 11:01 |
Jordach |
http://www.trittonaudio.com/prod/ax180.asp |
| 11:01 |
moltenbot |
Jordach's link: |
| 11:06 |
markveidemais |
Zeg9 |
| 11:06 |
markveidemais |
on the server: p |
| 11:06 |
markveidemais |
please help me transfer to MV power |
| 11:06 |
Jordach |
markveidemais, you cant |
| 11:06 |
Jordach |
the transformer is not finished |
| 11:07 |
Jordach |
mv batboxes are for charging tools faster at the moment |
| 11:07 |
markveidemais |
this is not minecraft tekkit! |
| 11:07 |
Jordach |
markveidemais, ask RealBadAngel himself |
| 11:07 |
Jordach |
mv is "just" there |
| 11:07 |
markveidemais |
RealBadAngel... |
| 11:16 |
PilzAdam |
the new dirt texture is nice |
| 11:21 |
Jordach |
PilzAdam, where have you been |
| 11:21 |
PilzAdam |
Skyrim ;-) |
| 11:22 |
Jordach |
yep, have that game too |
| 11:22 |
Jordach |
also - get on xblv later, i has bf3 + gold. |
| 11:23 |
PilzAdam |
:D |
| 11:23 |
Jordach |
(hopefully the bf3 online code works.) |
| 11:23 |
PilzAdam |
time for my first teamkill in BF3 ;-) |
| 11:23 |
Jordach |
hehehehe |
| 11:24 |
Jordach |
ill ping you when im going to go on iy |
| 11:24 |
Jordach |
it* |
| 11:28 |
markveidemais |
who is on Zegathon server |
| 11:31 |
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| 11:57 |
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| 11:57 |
davidpace |
Hi all :D |
| 11:59 |
davidpace |
Is it just me or are the forums down? |
| 11:59 |
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| 12:00 |
davidpace |
Hello iqualfragile! |
| 12:00 |
iqualfragile |
davidpace: hi |
| 12:00 |
iqualfragile |
are you often in #minetest? |
| 12:00 |
davidpace |
Its awfully quiet here now, I just joined a minute ago |
| 12:00 |
iqualfragile |
ah, ok |
| 12:00 |
iqualfragile |
well, you are about 12 hour too early/late |
| 12:00 |
davidpace |
Umm no, I am not often on #minetest, |
| 12:01 |
davidpace |
What do yoiu mean? |
| 12:01 |
davidpace |
*you |
| 12:01 |
iqualfragile |
well, use |
| 12:01 |
iqualfragile |
!date |
| 12:01 |
moltenbot |
Di 25. Dez 13:01:43 CET 2012 |
| 12:01 |
davidpace |
!date |
| 12:01 |
moltenbot |
Di 25. Dez 13:01:53 CET 2012 |
| 12:01 |
davidpace |
Hmmm |
| 12:01 |
iqualfragile |
when it shows some time between 19 and 3 o clock then its not quiet in #minetest |
| 12:02 |
davidpace |
Soo its not quiet? |
| 12:02 |
PilzAdam |
hello iqualfragile |
| 12:03 |
PilzAdam |
the new dirt textures are nice |
| 12:03 |
iqualfragile |
hi PilzAdam |
| 12:03 |
PilzAdam |
Frohe Weihnachten! |
| 12:03 |
iqualfragile |
i dont usualy make/improve texture, but if you like them i have some minor improvements for farming, too |
| 12:04 |
iqualfragile |
Frohe Weihnachten, auch wenn ich das nicht wirklich feiere |
| 12:04 |
iqualfragile |
davidpace: no, its just morning, nerds are sleeping in the morning, you know? |
| 12:04 |
davidpace |
Yes lol |
| 12:12 |
iqualfragile |
!ping minetest.net |
| 12:12 |
moltenbot |
host minetest.net DOWN |
| 12:12 |
iqualfragile |
gml |
| 12:12 |
PilzAdam |
iqualfragile, can you provide textures for this https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest_game/tree/farming/mods/farming ? |
| 12:12 |
moltenbot |
PilzAdam's link: minetest_game/mods/farming at farming ? PilzAdam/minetest_game ? GitHub |
| 12:13 |
PilzAdam |
note that you shouldnt use the textures in there because RBA copied them from MC |
| 12:13 |
PilzAdam |
maybe take the textures from my other farming mod as a starting point |
| 12:13 |
iqualfragile |
as i said, im usaly a programmer, but the texures from your other farming mods annoyed me, or to be precise: two of them |
| 12:14 |
PilzAdam |
Frohes Fest john_minetest |
| 12:15 |
iqualfragile |
both cotton-related: the it was hard for me to quickly decide on wich cotton plant was fully grown and wich wasnt, so i removed the white pixels from the not-finished step |
| 12:15 |
iqualfragile |
and it was hard for me to read how many seeds i do actualy have as white on white is quite unreadable… so i fixed that, too |
| 12:21 |
iqualfragile |
there is one "improvement wich is quite obvious: instead of copying the dirt-textures into the soil-textures and adding stuff you should instead just take the aded stuff and ^ it with the dirt-texture (as seen in my litle improovement for grass_side) |
| 12:21 |
iqualfragile |
john_minetest: Frohe weihnachten |
| 12:27 |
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| 12:28 |
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| 12:29 |
Exio |
PilzAdam: did you check https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82? |
| 12:29 |
moltenbot |
Exio's link: Tweaked Mese behavior so that the old Mese object is still available. by VanessaE ? Pull Request #82 ? celeron55/minetest_game ? GitHub |
| 12:30 |
PilzAdam |
will do |
| 12:33 |
artur99 |
this is real\ |
| 12:33 |
artur99 |
: |
| 12:33 |
artur99 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVXLOb6TCLM |
| 12:33 |
moltenbot |
artur99's link: Lets Play: Minetest! Doors, Bows, And Animals! - YouTube |
| 12:33 |
artur99 |
†Doors, Bows, And Animals!� |
| 12:34 |
artur99 |
does really exist animals? |
| 12:35 |
artur99 |
in minetest? |
| 12:35 |
Exio |
grr, forum down |
| 12:35 |
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| 12:36 |
Exio |
and well, iirc, with mob framework, or only sheep + rats with simple mobs |
| 12:38 |
artur99 |
and now there isnt animals anymore? |
| 12:40 |
artur99 |
this game evoluates so fast? |
| 12:41 |
artur99 |
do u saw this game: |
| 12:41 |
artur99 |
http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Product/CastleMiner/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d80258550900 |
| 12:42 |
artur99 |
? |
| 12:42 |
moltenbot |
artur99's link: CastleMiner - Xbox.com |
| 12:43 |
sapier |
mobf will have new release soon ... I'm going to drop the new 3d model support for this releas .... creating 3d models ain't something I'm used to :-/ |
| 12:44 |
sapier |
by the way how to tell minetest where to look for textures defined in a 3ds file? |
| 12:46 |
artur99 |
where can i find all dorr types |
| 12:46 |
artur99 |
? |
| 12:47 |
artur99 |
the forum is down |
| 12:52 |
Jordach |
PilzAdam, get down to the xbox |
| 12:52 |
sapier |
ok than now I report .3ds is working too ... without textures :-) |
| 12:53 |
iqualfragile |
hi sfan5 |
| 12:54 |
sfan5 |
hi :D |
| 12:54 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: well, try to put the textures all over the place, maybee it will find them somewhere |
| 12:54 |
iqualfragile |
!ping minetest.net |
| 12:54 |
moltenbot |
host minetest.net DOWN |
| 12:55 |
sapier |
:-) I've already thought of that but as minetest expects textures to be somewhere within mod folder I first wanted to know if there's a best practice where to put them |
| 12:56 |
iqualfragile |
yeah, but i think the .3ds support is not official… |
| 12:56 |
sapier |
I'll release next mobf without 3d models but containing all code necessary to support 3d models ... which is not a big deal at all |
| 12:57 |
sapier |
is here someone skilled in 3d modeling? my models look somehow strange :) |
| 12:57 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: i would love to run (at least parts of) your mobf but: its just too heavy |
| 12:57 |
iqualfragile |
what can i/you do about that? |
| 12:58 |
sapier |
you know you can disable nearly everything? |
| 12:59 |
iqualfragile |
jup |
| 12:59 |
sapier |
mobf is just a framework, if those animals you've enabled don't use the features they're not called this can't do anything bad |
| 12:59 |
iqualfragile |
but my server dies under the load and gets unresponsive |
| 12:59 |
iqualfragile |
even when i just have 15 animals on screen |
| 12:59 |
sapier |
what version did you try? |
| 13:00 |
iqualfragile |
ühm… |
| 13:00 |
iqualfragile |
about 2 month ago, i guess |
| 13:01 |
sapier |
hmm as I haven't released a new version for some time this should be latest .. did you have all animals enabled? |
| 13:04 |
iqualfragile |
yup, but as i said: it were about 15 onscreen at the max |
| 13:04 |
iqualfragile |
& im a bit unshure if i should try again because that leaves unknown objects everywhere |
| 13:04 |
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| 13:05 |
sapier |
I've added some code to remove disabled animals probably this makes testing a little bit more conveniant |
| 13:06 |
sapier |
most time spawning code introduced lots of lag, mobs still using "heavy" spawning algorithms are vombies (at night only) fishes and gulls |
| 13:06 |
iqualfragile |
ah, ok, well, then im gona try |
| 13:07 |
iqualfragile |
(when you link me to your git-repos, as the forums are down) |
| 13:07 |
sapier |
please wait for the new releas that code is really fresh I'll do a little bit of more testing |
| 13:07 |
iqualfragile |
no problem |
| 13:08 |
sapier |
I always want to avoid to disappoint ppl trying animals ... especialy if they give feedback |
| 13:10 |
iqualfragile |
animals are important, realy |
| 13:11 |
iqualfragile |
(well, not _all_ of them |
| 13:11 |
iqualfragile |
) |
| 13:11 |
iqualfragile |
but its important to have some dangers |
| 13:11 |
iqualfragile |
like vombies |
| 13:12 |
sapier |
yes but vombies will requre fast servers spawning in huge amounts at night creates lots of load ... at least until I've got an idea to do it more smart |
| 13:14 |
iqualfragile |
i have a fast server. |
| 13:15 |
sapier |
if you wan't to try general performance of mobf I recomend start with all animals disabled enabling one by one starting with sheep cow chicken wolf dm maybe vombie |
| 13:15 |
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| 13:17 |
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| 13:17 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: how long is it gona take untill you release the next version? |
| 13:18 |
iqualfragile |
john_minetest: we all do |
| 13:18 |
sapier |
I'm at final polishing atm all features are implemented I'd like to have in next version. I've to do some testing as lot's of (internal) code was changed |
| 13:18 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: https://github.com/sapier/animals_modpack right repos? |
| 13:18 |
moltenbot |
iqualfragile's link: sapier/animals_modpack ? GitHub |
| 13:19 |
sapier |
mesh support is already in next version I've just no "good" meshes to release |
| 13:19 |
sapier |
basicaly yes but this is for stable and bugfix code only not for experimental |
| 13:24 |
sapier |
off topic am i the only one having textures leak on minetest leave/joing game without quitting completely? |
| 13:25 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: nope, i have those, too |
| 13:25 |
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| 13:26 |
sapier |
ok so I'm not crazy because there was a patch floating around that problem about a year ago |
| 13:26 |
sapier |
add "fixing" to my sentence |
| 13:27 |
iqualfragile |
yeah, but it was removed again |
| 13:28 |
sapier |
I'd be glad to add them my first try to ise blender was horrible :-) |
| 13:31 |
sapier |
great :-) I didn't add animation code because i didn't have any animatable model may i use this big to add it? |
| 13:31 |
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| 13:31 |
sapier |
http://ompldr.org/tZ3RvZQ << my try to create a sheep |
| 13:32 |
iqualfragile |
blurp |
| 13:32 |
Jeija |
https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/366 << My pull request for a list of servers |
| 13:33 |
iqualfragile |
Jeija: post that to #minetest-dev |
| 13:34 |
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| 13:35 |
* OldCoder |
is resting |
| 13:36 |
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moltenbot joined #minetest |
| 13:36 |
sapier |
looks promising |
| 13:37 |
iqualfragile |
Jeija: maybee it would be better to add a new tab called "global" in wich all servers are listed |
| 13:38 |
|
Jeija left #minetest |
| 13:38 |
iqualfragile |
and only have your own local servers in that multyplyer-list |
| 13:38 |
iqualfragile |
-.- |
| 13:39 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: https://github.com/sapier/animals_modpack/blob/master/mobf/.project~ |
| 13:40 |
sapier |
hmm shouldn't be there thanks I'll remove it |
| 13:41 |
iqualfragile |
and there are some problems in the readme |
| 13:41 |
iqualfragile |
the creeper was removed/renamed |
| 13:41 |
iqualfragile |
and the vampire… yeah |
| 13:41 |
sapier |
creeper was removed? |
| 13:41 |
iqualfragile |
you might want to use the empty glass from vanessae s vessles |
| 13:42 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: i think so, wasnt it? |
| 13:42 |
sapier |
not by purpose |
| 13:42 |
iqualfragile |
wasnt it renamed? |
| 13:42 |
sapier |
no it's in there |
| 13:42 |
iqualfragile |
ok |
| 13:42 |
sapier |
animal_creeper |
| 13:43 |
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NekoGloop joined #minetest |
| 13:43 |
NekoGloop |
Meow |
| 13:43 |
iqualfragile |
hi Neko |
| 13:43 |
iqualfragile |
-added 3d Boombomb (was Creeper) |
| 13:44 |
sdzen |
greetings neko |
| 13:44 |
sapier |
you're right |
| 13:44 |
NekoGloop |
well at least now it's got a different name. |
| 13:44 |
sapier |
I should've renamed the folder too |
| 13:44 |
NekoGloop |
I still dont like the idea of the game ripping through my crap. |
| 13:44 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: where is the repos of the mobf-settings? |
| 13:45 |
sapier |
not in there because by the time of last release mobf-settings depended on other non standard mods |
| 13:45 |
iqualfragile |
ok |
| 13:45 |
sapier |
I haven't checked if those features got to main minetest_game by now |
| 13:45 |
iqualfragile |
(still waiting for the next release |
| 13:46 |
sapier |
don't expect it before tonight :-) |
| 13:46 |
iqualfragile |
oh… ok |
| 13:46 |
sapier |
polishing and testing needs some time too |
| 13:46 |
NekoGloop |
and dont expect jordan4ibanez's mod to ever be updated. |
| 13:46 |
iqualfragile |
let me help you |
| 13:48 |
sapier |
of course this release won't be a really stable release there where to many changes to expect flawless operations. But I'll still need until tonight for a proper releasable version ... sorry |
| 13:49 |
Jordach |
merry christmad NekoGloop |
| 13:49 |
Jordach |
christmas* |
| 13:49 |
NekoGloop |
Yes, isnt the loss of a great modder a wonderful christmas present? |
| 13:50 |
Jordach |
nope, hes an ass to some people |
| 13:51 |
sdzen |
but not to others |
| 13:51 |
NekoGloop |
He only returned the favor of the community. |
| 13:51 |
NekoGloop |
So treat him like shit he treats you like shit. Simple. |
| 13:52 |
NekoGloop |
DM, oerkki, rats. |
| 13:52 |
NekoGloop |
No, i listed the entire list of mobs from 0.3.x version. |
| 13:53 |
NekoGloop |
well pigs are a bit much |
| 13:53 |
NekoGloop |
Why have a pig when we have cows? |
| 13:53 |
NekoGloop |
Unless you want hogskin for footballs or something. |
| 13:54 |
NekoGloop |
cows are OP? |
| 13:54 |
NekoGloop |
Meat if you kill them, milk if they stay alive |
| 13:54 |
NekoGloop |
You can only get so much meat from them. |
| 13:55 |
sapier |
*lol* ride cows .... sounds funny ... and even possible |
| 13:55 |
NekoGloop |
Well, at least i've figured out why mojang made cows nonexistant in their latest updates. |
| 13:55 |
NekoGloop |
And made books out of leather and paper. |
| 13:55 |
NekoGloop |
Which is the stupidest thing ever, and mojang should feel bad. |
| 13:56 |
sapier |
I think getting leather from deer is much more interesting |
| 13:56 |
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| 13:56 |
sapier |
mob already has deer ;) |
| 13:56 |
sapier |
mobf |
| 13:56 |
iqualfragile |
an ugly deer |
| 13:56 |
NekoGloop |
I think getting leather from just every animal it makes sense with is a good idea. |
| 13:56 |
jojoa1997 |
can someone give me the github link to jordan4ipbanez's 3d animated npc |
| 13:56 |
sapier |
:-) I'm a coder not a designer |
| 13:57 |
iqualfragile |
github.com/jordan4ibanez ? |
| 13:57 |
NekoGloop |
Cows, deer, pigs... |
| 13:57 |
jojoa1997 |
hostile small people |
| 13:57 |
sapier |
you meant "small piece of leather" ? @john_minetest |
| 13:57 |
PilzAdam |
<sapier> :-) I'm a coder not a designer <- thats one big problem of Minetest, we dont have designers |
| 13:57 |
iqualfragile |
john_minetest: both |
| 13:57 |
sapier |
true @pilzadam |
| 13:57 |
iqualfragile |
PilzAdam: you need to differ: graphical artists or designes? |
| 13:58 |
sapier |
I've posted a link to a try of mine to create a sheep 3d model ... I think the result is self speaking |
| 13:58 |
iqualfragile |
and we do have enought graphical artists, take a look at the relam of 3d-mobs |
| 13:58 |
* NekoGloop |
shows how bad notch is at game design right there. |
| 13:59 |
NekoGloop |
What the actual fuck. I did not put a /me there. |
| 14:00 |
iqualfragile |
NekoGloop: in the irc-protocol you need to put a special char at the end of the line, maybee you did that by accident? |
| 14:00 |
iqualfragile |
-.- |
| 14:04 |
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| 14:05 |
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| 14:06 |
thexyz |
the guy who made new design for website can be called designer, can't he? |
| 14:07 |
thexyz |
prowseed, iirc |
| 14:07 |
thexyz |
the one which was not accepted by c55 |
| 14:12 |
thexyz |
iqualfragile: so, 99% bot uptime, yeah? |
| 14:12 |
iqualfragile |
i have shut it down like 10 minutes ago because i want to add a feature |
| 14:14 |
thexyz |
what feature? |
| 14:14 |
iqualfragile |
i wan to allow both syntaxes: !up minetest.org 30000 and minetest.org:3000 |
| 14:14 |
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| 14:15 |
thexyz |
fine |
| 14:15 |
thexyz |
and how about ipv6? |
| 14:15 |
iqualfragile |
what exactly? |
| 14:16 |
thexyz |
will it work (when we'll have it supported) |
| 14:17 |
iqualfragile |
you mean for checking if hosts are up? |
| 14:17 |
thexyz |
yep |
| 14:17 |
iqualfragile |
jup |
| 14:18 |
iqualfragile |
(well, why wouldnt it work? it uses standard-unix-tools) |
| 14:20 |
|
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| 14:23 |
thexyz |
ok, fine, let's assume it will work |
| 14:24 |
|
moltenbot joined #minetest |
| 14:26 |
|
moltenbot joined #minetest |
| 14:28 |
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moltenbot joined #minetest |
| 14:30 |
thexyz |
minetest.net is fucking down again |
| 14:33 |
|
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| 14:39 |
thexyz |
http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04 |
| 14:40 |
thexyz |
(cast marktraceur) |
| 14:42 |
PilzAdam |
*** longjmp causes uninitialized stack frame ***: /home/adam/Minetest/minetest/bin/minetest terminated |
| 14:42 |
PilzAdam |
anyone knows what that means? |
| 14:43 |
thexyz |
seems to be curl-related |
| 14:43 |
thexyz |
(as google thinks) |
| 14:43 |
thexyz |
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9191668/error-longjmp-causes-uninitialized-stack-frame |
| 14:43 |
PilzAdam |
you need a backtrace? |
| 14:43 |
|
moltenbot joined #minetest |
| 14:43 |
sapier |
seems assembler is still alive ;-) |
| 14:44 |
thexyz |
how can it be non-alive? |
| 14:44 |
thexyz |
PilzAdam: what MT version causes this? |
| 14:44 |
PilzAdam |
https://gist.github.com/999fd7c9df721d57ce4a |
| 14:45 |
PilzAdam |
Jeija's serverlist |
| 14:45 |
PilzAdam |
but it was ingame |
| 14:46 |
PilzAdam |
so I guess its not his fault |
| 14:46 |
thexyz |
well, that's definetly a curl issue |
| 14:46 |
thexyz |
>/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcurl-gnutls.so.4(+0x9b25)[0x7f2c24509b25] |
| 14:46 |
iqualfragile |
my server has curl-support enabled |
| 14:46 |
PilzAdam |
I played several minutes on iqualfragile's server |
| 14:47 |
thexyz |
hm.. the solution may be curl_easy_setopt(curl, CURLOPT_NOSIGNAL, 1) |
| 14:48 |
iqualfragile |
btw: i think the boat looks to round |
| 14:49 |
PilzAdam |
yea, I dont really like the boat model |
| 14:51 |
|
markveidemanis joined #minetest |
| 14:51 |
markveidemanis |
i have to ask a technic expert, so can they plz PM me |
| 14:51 |
iqualfragile |
RealBadAngel: markveidemanis has a question |
| 14:52 |
markveidemanis |
ok fair enough |
| 14:52 |
markveidemanis |
RealBadAngel: ccould you go on the Zegathon server to help me with wiring and machines |
| 14:54 |
|
moltenbot joined #minetest |
| 14:55 |
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moltenbot joined #minetest |
| 14:55 |
|
Doc22 joined #minetest |
| 14:56 |
markveidemanis |
llp |
| 14:56 |
Doc22 |
hey Oldcoder |
| 14:56 |
markveidemanis |
RBA |
| 14:56 |
Doc22 |
i got my new computer |
| 14:56 |
Doc22 |
:) |
| 14:56 |
Doc22 |
:) |
| 14:56 |
Doc22 |
im so happy |
| 14:56 |
Doc22 |
it runs like lightning |
| 14:56 |
PilzAdam |
specs? |
| 14:56 |
Doc22 |
and I can play games that i couldnt before |
| 14:56 |
Doc22 |
ok |
| 14:56 |
Doc22 |
asus sabertooth x79 motherboard |
| 14:57 |
markveidemanis |
Ghz? |
| 14:57 |
Doc22 |
intel 1-7 3820 processor 3.2 ghz |
| 14:57 |
Doc22 |
i-7* |
| 14:57 |
markveidemanis |
holy shi... |
| 14:57 |
markveidemanis |
haha i got 1.6 |
| 14:57 |
Doc22 |
8gb of 1866mhz ram |
| 14:57 |
PilzAdam |
what generation is the core? |
| 14:57 |
Doc22 |
it has 4 cores |
| 14:57 |
Doc22 |
idk what gen |
| 14:58 |
thexyz |
+ multithreading? |
| 14:58 |
markveidemanis |
thats faster than apple imac, i think |
| 14:58 |
Doc22 |
ikr |
| 14:58 |
Doc22 |
i got an awesome cooler |
| 14:58 |
thexyz |
oops, hyper-threading |
| 14:58 |
|
moltenbot joined #minetest |
| 14:58 |
Doc22 |
and the processor usage never goes above 1-% |
| 14:58 |
Doc22 |
10%* |
| 14:58 |
Doc22 |
mostly around 1% usage |
| 14:58 |
Doc22 |
even with multitasking |
| 14:58 |
Doc22 |
i custom built this |
| 14:59 |
Doc22 |
ordered everything from amazon |
| 14:59 |
markveidemanis |
can you run my minetest server with ur fast pc to see how it performs? |
| 14:59 |
PilzAdam |
I have 8 cores @ 2.93 GHz |
| 14:59 |
Doc22 |
sure |
| 14:59 |
Doc22 |
awesome |
| 14:59 |
iqualfragile |
PilzAdam: me too |
| 14:59 |
Doc22 |
the slot is lga201 |
| 14:59 |
Doc22 |
lga2011* |
| 14:59 |
PilzAdam |
i7 first generation |
| 14:59 |
iqualfragile |
well, im not shure about the 2.93 ghz |
| 15:00 |
Doc22 |
so when the new ivy bridge processors come out |
| 15:00 |
Doc22 |
i can use them |
| 15:00 |
markveidemanis |
meh |
| 15:00 |
Doc22 |
i want to see how the 3-d transistors work |
| 15:00 |
iqualfragile |
Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5405 @ 2.00GHz |
| 15:01 |
Doc22 |
@markveidemanis |
| 15:01 |
PilzAdam |
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 870 @ 2.93 GHz |
| 15:01 |
Doc22 |
i will run your server for test |
| 15:01 |
Doc22 |
but not permanently |
| 15:01 |
|
moltenbot joined #minetest |
| 15:02 |
Doc22 |
also I chose to use a 120gb ssd |
| 15:02 |
Doc22 |
they are much faster |
| 15:03 |
Doc22 |
boots up in like 10 seconds |
| 15:03 |
thexyz |
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz (server) |
| 15:03 |
PilzAdam |
Doc22, wich OS? |
| 15:03 |
Doc22 |
win 7 |
| 15:03 |
Doc22 |
im kinda mixed between gaming |
| 15:03 |
Doc22 |
and programming |
| 15:03 |
PilzAdam |
dual boot |
| 15:03 |
thexyz |
linux can boot in ~3 seconds from ssd, iirc |
| 15:03 |
Doc22 |
so i use windows |
| 15:04 |
Doc22 |
i only use it because of the games that are for windows |
| 15:04 |
thexyz |
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTEwMjc |
| 15:04 |
moltenbot |
thexyz's link: [Phoronix] A Two-Second Boot Time With systemd |
| 15:04 |
Doc22 |
otherwise i would use linux |
| 15:04 |
Doc22 |
also im used to windows. |
| 15:04 |
Doc22 |
its "what i grew up on" |
| 15:04 |
Doc22 |
i learned it when i was little |
| 15:04 |
Doc22 |
i like windows |
| 15:05 |
iqualfragile |
thexyz: linux can boot in 5 sec from hdd |
| 15:06 |
NakedFury |
merry christmas minetest |
| 15:06 |
thexyz |
iqualfragile: with X and some DE? |
| 15:06 |
iqualfragile |
jup |
| 15:06 |
iqualfragile |
was on phoronix some while ago |
| 15:06 |
Doc22 |
i tried ubuntu when i was trying to learn about servers |
| 15:06 |
PilzAdam |
iqualfragile, and with BIOS? |
| 15:06 |
Doc22 |
i had sooo much trouble installing it |
| 15:07 |
PilzAdam |
Doc22, wubi? |
| 15:07 |
iqualfragile |
PilzAdam: thats a different story |
| 15:07 |
Doc22 |
no writing iso to a cd |
| 15:07 |
iqualfragile |
cd… |
| 15:07 |
iqualfragile |
use usb-sticks |
| 15:07 |
Doc22 |
i tried doing that too |
| 15:07 |
iqualfragile |
i usualy get my system installed in less then 7 minutes using an usb-stick |
| 15:08 |
thexyz |
NakedFury: merry grav-mass |
| 15:10 |
Doc22 |
hmm |
| 15:10 |
Doc22 |
i had a lot of trouble |
| 15:10 |
iqualfragile |
http://www.linuxliveusb.com/ |
| 15:11 |
Doc22 |
i downloaded it several times (many hours...), then tried installing it |
| 15:11 |
Doc22 |
it was mainly during boot up |
| 15:11 |
Doc22 |
it wont load grub |
| 15:11 |
Doc22 |
unless i change some settings |
| 15:11 |
Doc22 |
even then it wont boot linux |
| 15:12 |
Doc22 |
its probably because that was an old computer with out of date bios |
| 15:12 |
Doc22 |
etc |
| 15:29 |
|
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| 15:32 |
Doc22 |
ugh |
| 15:33 |
|
Zeg9 joined #minetest |
| 15:33 |
Doc22 |
stupid "restart now for windows updates?" button |
| 15:33 |
Doc22 |
accidentally pressed restart now |
| 15:33 |
Zeg9 |
You use windows ? |
| 15:33 |
Doc22 |
yes |
| 15:33 |
Doc22 |
just for the gamez |
| 15:33 |
Zeg9 |
Hi |
| 15:33 |
Zeg9 |
btw |
| 15:33 |
Doc22 |
im mixed between programmer and gamer |
| 15:33 |
|
mauvebic joined #minetest |
| 15:33 |
|
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| 15:33 |
|
SmugLeaf joined #minetest |
| 15:33 |
Doc22 |
i like windows because it is also what I am used to |
| 15:34 |
Doc22 |
i dont have to always ask (why cant i do that) |
| 15:34 |
Doc22 |
anyway |
| 15:34 |
Zeg9 |
I hope it isn't 8 |
| 15:34 |
Doc22 |
i need to learn more about security |
| 15:34 |
Doc22 |
nope |
| 15:34 |
Doc22 |
i stick with 7 |
| 15:34 |
Doc22 |
i hear that its unstable |
| 15:34 |
Doc22 |
8 |
| 15:35 |
Doc22 |
and that they are making it like mac |
| 15:35 |
Doc22 |
more or less |
| 15:35 |
Zeg9 |
They are making it even more unusable |
| 15:35 |
Doc22 |
7 is as far as i will go |
| 15:35 |
Doc22 |
for now |
| 15:35 |
Doc22 |
i grew up on xp |
| 15:35 |
Doc22 |
vista sucked |
| 15:35 |
Doc22 |
but 7 is good |
| 15:36 |
Doc22 |
xp was also good |
| 15:36 |
Doc22 |
is minetest.net down? |
| 15:37 |
Doc22 |
YUS WOT action nauw |
| 15:37 |
Doc22 |
if anyone has world of tanks |
| 15:37 |
Doc22 |
im doc44 |
| 15:37 |
Doc22 |
gtg |
| 15:47 |
|
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| 15:56 |
iqualfragile |
!ping minetest.net |
| 15:56 |
moltenbot |
host minetest.net DOWN |
| 15:57 |
iqualfragile |
celeron55: whats up? |
| 15:57 |
mauvebic |
damn forums are down |
| 15:57 |
mauvebic |
oh well, enjoy http://www.zimg.eu/i/784909190 |
| 15:58 |
celeron55 |
"what's up?" "well, at least not minetest.net" |
| 15:58 |
iqualfragile |
:D |
| 15:58 |
iqualfragile |
whats the problem about minetes.net |
| 15:58 |
iqualfragile |
s/minetes.net/minetest.net |
| 15:59 |
iqualfragile |
celeron55: there is a bug about occlusion: sometimes minetest does not draw chunks of blocks i would be able to see |
| 16:02 |
celeron55 |
it's very minor |
| 16:02 |
celeron55 |
and not a bug |
| 16:02 |
celeron55 |
it's because of speed |
| 16:03 |
celeron55 |
if it perfectly tested occlusions, it could just as well just draw everything instead of culling them |
| 16:03 |
|
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| 16:03 |
iqualfragile |
no, its not |
| 16:04 |
|
shadowjay1 joined #minetest |
| 16:04 |
artru99 |
is this valable anymore: |
| 16:04 |
artru99 |
http://1.1.1.5/bmi/www.mesecons.net/crafts/silicon.png |
| 16:04 |
artru99 |
? |
| 16:06 |
|
harrison joined #minetest |
| 16:08 |
artru99 |
??????? |
| 16:09 |
iqualfragile |
ühm… |
| 16:09 |
iqualfragile |
1.1.1.5? |
| 16:10 |
artru99 |
from mesecon.tk |
| 16:10 |
artru99 |
*mesecons.tk |
| 16:10 |
artru99 |
the silicon |
| 16:10 |
iqualfragile |
!ping mesecons.net |
| 16:10 |
moltenbot |
64 bytes from 78.46.181.14: icmp_req=1 ttl=57 time=8.14 ms |
| 16:10 |
iqualfragile |
!ping mesecons.tk |
| 16:10 |
moltenbot |
host mesecons.tk DOWN |
| 16:10 |
iqualfragile |
see, no 1.1.1.5 |
| 16:11 |
* Jordach |
lazes around |
| 16:14 |
artru99 |
nesecons.tk is up |
| 16:14 |
artru99 |
i can see it |
| 16:14 |
Jordach |
nese? is that some form of negative mese |
| 16:14 |
mauvebic |
hmm https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/issues/347 this happens to me on linux too while running chromium |
| 16:14 |
moltenbot |
mauvebic's link: GPU Memory Fragments. ? Issue #347 ? celeron55/minetest ? GitHub |
| 16:15 |
mauvebic |
and only with the nvidia tower |
| 16:16 |
Jordach |
yeah, nvidia chips seem affected by this |
| 16:16 |
mauvebic |
though i think its because they recently fixed the hardware acceleration for flash player (which didn't previously work) |
| 16:17 |
mauvebic |
if anyone remembers those purple-tinted youtube vids on nvidia gpus :p |
| 16:17 |
iqualfragile |
nah, its not purple-tinted |
| 16:17 |
iqualfragile |
the colours blue and red are exchanged |
| 16:18 |
mauvebic |
welll now hardware accel works and my inventory tiles are frequently replaced by snaps of my browser windows :P could be coincidence tho |
| 16:20 |
|
shadowjay1 joined #minetest |
| 16:20 |
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artur99 joined #minetest |
| 16:20 |
artur99 |
hi |
| 16:20 |
iqualfragile |
hi artur99 |
| 16:20 |
artur99 |
i cant craft this: |
| 16:21 |
artur99 |
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7/25148309.png |
| 16:21 |
artur99 |
why? |
| 16:21 |
artur99 |
same link: |
| 16:21 |
artur99 |
http://www.mesecons.net/items/solarpanel.php |
| 16:21 |
moltenbot |
artur99's link: mesecons |
| 16:23 |
artur99 |
and i cant craft this too: |
| 16:23 |
artur99 |
http://www.mesecons.net/items/silicon.php |
| 16:23 |
moltenbot |
artur99's link: mesecons |
| 16:25 |
|
analphabet joined #minetest |
| 16:27 |
|
codile joined #minetest |
| 16:28 |
Jordach |
mauvebic, is the card series geforce/ |
| 16:28 |
|
analphabet left #minetest |
| 16:29 |
mauvebic |
geforce 210 i think? |
| 16:29 |
mauvebic |
i still have the box lemme go check |
| 16:29 |
Jordach |
mauvebic, it might just be on geforce cards |
| 16:29 |
mauvebic |
ugh my wife hid it somewhere lol |
| 16:29 |
mauvebic |
but yeah its a geforce |
| 16:29 |
mauvebic |
bought a year ago now |
| 16:30 |
Jordach |
so it might just be geforce cards |
| 16:31 |
mauvebic |
yep GeForce 210 |
| 16:31 |
mauvebic |
driver version 304.64 |
| 16:32 |
Jordach |
so its a nvidia card being the issue |
| 16:32 |
|
roboman2444 joined #minetest |
| 16:32 |
Jordach |
of the series geforce |
| 16:33 |
mauvebic |
+ it only happens when chromium is running? |
| 16:33 |
Jordach |
celeron55, my issue on c55/minetest #347 seems to be related to the running of a hardware accelerated browser and the running of a minetest binary on nvidia geforce series cards |
| 16:34 |
|
oa_Bob1 joined #minetest |
| 16:35 |
mauvebic |
i wonder what happens if i disable hard.accel. on the flash player |
| 16:35 |
|
Kacey joined #minetest |
| 16:36 |
Kacey |
hello and merry christmas |
| 16:36 |
Kacey |
O:-) |
| 16:39 |
Zeg9 |
Jordach, nvidia geforce series -> nvidia graphic card |
| 16:39 |
Zeg9 |
Jordach, nvidia geforce series -> nvidia graphic cards* |
| 16:39 |
Jordach |
Zeg9, it only happens on this series |
| 16:40 |
mauvebic |
feel free to add my details to the bugreport, i dont have/want a github acct. lol |
| 16:40 |
Zeg9 |
Jordach, I mean that all nvidia cards are called geforce |
| 16:42 |
Kacey |
i have installed xubunu on my laptop |
| 16:43 |
|
sapier1 joined #minetest |
| 16:43 |
Kacey |
hallo |
| 16:44 |
Zeg9 |
Hi |
| 16:44 |
Kacey |
i gave myself the gift of xubuntu |
| 16:45 |
Zeg9 |
Free and great gift |
| 16:45 |
Kacey |
yes it is |
| 16:45 |
Kacey |
installing WINE and VanessaE are you on? |
| 16:46 |
|
sebastiansam55 joined #minetest |
| 16:46 |
VanessaE |
I *just* walked in |
| 16:46 |
Kacey |
lol |
| 16:47 |
PilzAdam |
hi VanessaE |
| 16:47 |
VanessaE |
your timing is impeccable |
| 16:47 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: ahh there you are. I have work for you ;) |
| 16:47 |
VanessaE |
https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82 |
| 16:47 |
VanessaE |
also good morning all. |
| 16:48 |
Kacey |
merry christmas |
| 16:48 |
VanessaE |
same to you Kacey |
| 16:48 |
Kacey |
i gave myself the gift of xubuntu |
| 16:50 |
thexyz |
VanessaE: why are there 3 closed and 1 open pull request for that thing? |
| 16:50 |
VanessaE |
thexyz: because I kept changing my mind and also screwing up :-) |
| 16:51 |
thexyz |
why didnt't you just change existing pull request? |
| 16:51 |
VanessaE |
and because certain individuals don't like multiple commits per request. |
| 16:51 |
VanessaE |
I don't know how to do that. Still learning git. |
| 16:51 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 16:51 |
thexyz |
git rebase |
| 16:51 |
thexyz |
git push --force |
| 16:51 |
thexyz |
that's all you need |
| 16:52 |
VanessaE |
I'll remember that for the future |
| 16:52 |
artur99 |
i cant craft this http://www.mesecons.net/items/silicon.php |
| 16:52 |
moltenbot |
artur99's link: mesecons |
| 16:52 |
artur99 |
why? |
| 16:54 |
VanessaE |
artur99: works for me? |
| 16:54 |
VanessaE |
(just checked with a recent git pull of mesecons) |
| 16:55 |
VanessaE |
of course, I have homedecor installed too, which I know will produce silicon if mesecons won't. |
| 16:59 |
artur99 |
aha |
| 16:59 |
artur99 |
and there is planks and steel ingout? |
| 16:59 |
VanessaE |
sand + steel |
| 16:59 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, where do I get your latest tree code in c++? |
| 17:00 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: that pull request should stop all the bitching from the luddites :-) |
| 17:01 |
|
ttk2 joined #minetest |
| 17:02 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, ask me in a few days or so |
| 17:02 |
VanessaE |
this should be RBA's trees + mapgen tweaks: http://realbadangel.pl/mapgen.zip |
| 17:03 |
VanessaE |
(it's the whole of minetest, but it isn't current with 0.4.4 git, so be sure you also run the client that gets built with it when testing) |
| 17:03 |
VanessaE |
(It doesn't recognize the noclip priv) |
| 17:04 |
Kacey |
im working on my new mod so ping if you need me |
| 17:09 |
Kacey |
ok back |
| 17:12 |
|
markveidemanis joined #minetest |
| 17:17 |
* Kacey |
lagetest |
| 17:17 |
Kacey |
lagtest* |
| 17:20 |
marktraceur |
Lugetest! |
| 17:21 |
Kacey |
lol |
| 17:22 |
Kacey |
need to finish the crafting recipes and textures and then i can upload it |
| 17:23 |
Kacey |
on the time mod* |
| 17:26 |
sapier1 |
@iqualfragile I've just updated github code with new mobf version for testing purposes |
| 17:26 |
iqualfragile |
k thx |
| 17:30 |
PilzAdam |
cutting down one of RealBadAngel's L-System trees: 2 in-game days (without night), nearly 1 steel axe, 230 tree nodes, 397 leave blocks, 234 saplings |
| 17:30 |
PilzAdam |
and a lot of fun |
| 17:31 |
|
neko259 joined #minetest |
| 17:31 |
iqualfragile |
yeah, i think those are a bit too big… |
| 17:31 |
iqualfragile |
sapier1: whats the chnges? |
| 17:32 |
PilzAdam |
omg, FIRE!!! |
| 17:32 |
sapier1 |
1.9.0 |
| 17:33 |
sapier1 |
lots of changes :-) |
| 17:33 |
PilzAdam |
http://www.zimg.eu/i/2231242482 |
| 17:33 |
PilzAdam |
with fire: 1 fire, 2 saplings |
| 17:33 |
PilzAdam |
and only 1 minute |
| 17:34 |
sapier1 |
two major things changed : 1) state support for mobs 2) complete rewrite of callback handling (on_step as well as on_punch) |
| 17:34 |
sapier1 |
are that growing_trees @pilzadam? |
| 17:35 |
PilzAdam |
no, RBA's L-System trees |
| 17:35 |
mauvebic |
the boats mod, does the screen shake/vibrate like when i drive ufos? |
| 17:35 |
sapier1 |
hmm look great |
| 17:36 |
* VanessaE |
is worn out now |
| 17:37 |
JesseH |
Any mods that change gameplay a lot? |
| 17:38 |
PilzAdam |
creative ;-) |
| 17:38 |
mauvebic |
no_mapgen |
| 17:38 |
thexyz |
JesseH: realtest |
| 17:38 |
PilzAdam |
maybe farming |
| 17:39 |
PilzAdam |
thexyz, thats not a mod |
| 17:39 |
thexyz |
(it's not a mod but modpack though) |
| 17:39 |
Kacey |
mesecons |
| 17:40 |
thexyz |
ughh, not modpack, but a game |
| 17:40 |
marktraceur |
Anyone know how to disable the "type /join" message that happens with the IRC mod if nobody was on for some time? The IRC bot is always in my channel, but the server sometimes annoys people with the message. |
| 17:41 |
JesseH |
thexyz, neat |
| 17:42 |
VanessaE |
JesseH: my custom game rather changes game play a bit |
| 17:42 |
VanessaE |
mostly because of the presence of the Technic and Unified Inventory mods. |
| 17:42 |
markveidemanis |
my framerate is terrible |
| 17:42 |
VanessaE |
(e.g. creative mode |
| 17:42 |
VanessaE |
) |
| 17:42 |
Kacey |
where can i download the irc mod? |
| 17:42 |
markveidemanis |
from the internet |
| 17:43 |
markveidemanis |
or an interweb |
| 17:44 |
marktraceur |
Kacey: http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3905 |
| 17:44 |
marktraceur |
Kacey: Suggest that you not use this channel to test it :) |
| 17:44 |
Kacey |
aaw ok |
| 17:46 |
|
Jakssoul joined #minetest |
| 17:46 |
Jakssoul |
Hello everyone. |
| 17:46 |
Kacey |
hello |
| 17:46 |
Kacey |
brb |
| 17:46 |
|
Kacey left #minetest |
| 17:46 |
Jakssoul |
How's it going? |
| 17:47 |
Jakssoul |
Oh, have fun. |
| 17:47 |
markveidemanis |
how to improve FPS? |
| 17:47 |
Jakssoul |
Turn of Shaders. Made it SOOO much better for me. |
| 17:47 |
markveidemanis |
shaders are off |
| 17:48 |
Jakssoul |
How much RAM do you have? |
| 17:48 |
Jakssoul |
I'm using a little crappy netbook with 512MB RAM and get 20+ FPS generally. |
| 17:48 |
Jakssoul |
I think that should be enough for just about anyone. |
| 17:51 |
|
Kacey joined #minetest |
| 17:51 |
Kacey |
back |
| 17:51 |
Kacey |
having a horrible internet |
| 17:53 |
Kacey |
cdan anyone give me the download link? |
| 17:53 |
Kacey |
can* |
| 17:55 |
|
Kacey joined #minetest |
| 17:56 |
Kacey |
hello? |
| 17:57 |
JesseH |
Kacey, The guy who wrote it isn't on right now. |
| 17:57 |
JesseH |
Let me see if I can find the link. |
| 17:57 |
Kacey |
kaeza wrote it didnt he? |
| 17:58 |
JesseH |
Correct. |
| 17:59 |
JesseH |
Kacey, https://github.com/kaeza/minetest-irc |
| 17:59 |
moltenbot |
JesseH's link: kaeza/minetest-irc ? GitHub |
| 17:59 |
JesseH |
Clone that, or download as a zip or whatever. |
| 18:02 |
Kacey |
Plese change the "cp -R irc" to fit your install of minetest. |
| 18:02 |
Kacey |
what does this mean? |
| 18:03 |
JesseH |
I am new to minetest, and it seems like a minetest error. Therefore I cannot help you. |
| 18:03 |
Kacey |
OldCoder? Vanesssa |
| 18:04 |
Kacey |
either of you know? |
| 18:05 |
|
MilanFIN joined #minetest |
| 18:07 |
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Kacey left #minetest |
| 18:09 |
VanessaE |
hm, what? |
| 18:09 |
VanessaE |
*looks* |
| 18:09 |
RealBadAngel |
hi all |
| 18:09 |
VanessaE |
hrm, well he's gone for now I guess |
| 18:09 |
VanessaE |
hey RBA. |
| 18:10 |
Jordach |
RealBadAngel, wassup |
| 18:10 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, want latest trees? |
| 18:10 |
PilzAdam |
sure |
| 18:10 |
PilzAdam |
or are the one VanessaE gave me the latest? |
| 18:10 |
RealBadAngel |
Jordach: still in the woods, takin care of trees ;) |
| 18:10 |
Jordach |
burning them down |
| 18:10 |
RealBadAngel |
the latest one surely im the only one to have it :) |
| 18:11 |
sokomine |
merry christmas to all i havn't seen yet :-) |
| 18:11 |
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codile joined #minetest |
| 18:11 |
VanessaE |
haha |
| 18:11 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, c++ files: realbadangel.pl/mapgen.zip |
| 18:12 |
sokomine |
ah. are the advanced trees coming to the game? |
| 18:12 |
RealBadAngel |
you have to have in mods lua version too (for textures) |
| 18:12 |
RealBadAngel |
and fix one line in default mapgen.lua |
| 18:13 |
RealBadAngel |
line #10 to: |
| 18:13 |
RealBadAngel |
minetest.register_alias("mapgen_leaves", "treegen:birch_leaves") |
| 18:14 |
RealBadAngel |
btw im movin now all tree related stuff to separate c and h files |
| 18:15 |
sapier1 |
can someone tell me what code is expected to be in lua and what is allowed in c++? I thought celeron didn't want many game specific code parts in c++? |
| 18:15 |
RealBadAngel |
sapier1, speed factor |
| 18:15 |
RealBadAngel |
you can compare with trees speed of the very same code |
| 18:16 |
RealBadAngel |
some things just cannot be done in LUA |
| 18:16 |
sapier1 |
not really? most of the speed problems mobf has could be fixed in c++ easyly but celeron told me he didn't want mobs in c++ |
| 18:16 |
sokomine |
if so many experienced players are online...maybe you do have any ideas how i can get right-click on npc/mob to display a formspec menu? i know that it does require changes in the code. i could insert suitable data structures analog to the ones players and nodes use. but i'm not sure if and how updates to the data of lua objects like npc will be transmitted from server to client? |
| 18:16 |
sokomine |
oh :-) and sapier is on as well. fine :-) |
| 18:17 |
* sokomine |
hopes for 3d-animals :-) |
| 18:17 |
|
Kacey joined #minetest |
| 18:17 |
RealBadAngel |
sapier1 they should be done in c++ |
| 18:17 |
Kacey |
i am building CMake |
| 18:17 |
RealBadAngel |
as well as mesecons core and some other stuff |
| 18:17 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: I'm afraid "a few days" just won't do - people are bitching too loudly about the change, this needs put through right away. |
| 18:18 |
sapier1 |
you're kidding I've been writing in lua only because celeron said mobs not in c++ and now you tell me they'd be added in c++? is this only your oppinion or did celeron change minds? |
| 18:19 |
VanessaE |
Lua is a great idea for modding but it's being over/misused - some stuff just cannot be adequately done without some help from C++ |
| 18:20 |
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Zeg9 joined #minetest |
| 18:20 |
JesseH |
I imagine, nothing Lua wise can be done without the correct c++ bindings, yes/ |
| 18:21 |
sokomine |
that's right and one of the reasons there was no way to move the player around before the models where introduced (apart from beaming the player around) |
| 18:22 |
JesseH |
Also, what is happeneing that you have to worry about Lua's speed? |
| 18:22 |
sokomine |
pilzadam is very experienced at finding ways to get around some limitations of the lua interface. but there are still limits what can be done |
| 18:22 |
sapier1 |
I've already added moving player support to minetest a year ago, noone was interested |
| 18:23 |
sokomine |
maybe that was at a time celeron had less time/intrest in the game? in recent weeks, quite a lot has improved |
| 18:24 |
sapier1 |
I'm glad things get better |
| 18:25 |
sokomine |
the new models are great. the 3d-player is much better to look at than that scary 2d-shape that's so flat from the side. it still has some bugs but i think it's worth it |
| 18:25 |
RealBadAngel |
sapier1, thats my opinion |
| 18:25 |
JesseH |
I am still curious of the problem with speed. |
| 18:26 |
RealBadAngel |
but if mobs are supposed to EVER work in mt, it has to be done in c++ |
| 18:26 |
RealBadAngel |
they can be controlled from lua, but all the logic shall be in the engine |
| 18:26 |
JesseH |
The Lua bindings can be made, so us higher level folks can implement things as well. |
| 18:26 |
sapier1 |
did you ever try mobf? mobs do work in lua |
| 18:27 |
sapier1 |
there's still one major bug in c++ NOT related to mobs making mobs nearly unusable |
| 18:27 |
VanessaE |
sapier1: well a lot of people say MOBF lags servers, so... |
| 18:27 |
VanessaE |
what's that bug? |
| 18:27 |
RealBadAngel |
all the stuff that relies on heavy calculation will suffer |
| 18:28 |
sapier1 |
as soon as there's an accelerated entity minetest may enter a runaway performance glitch |
| 18:28 |
VanessaE |
huh. |
| 18:28 |
RealBadAngel |
entities shall be moved to client side |
| 18:28 |
sapier1 |
there's next to no heavy calculation for basic mob features (at least if you do it right) |
| 18:28 |
VanessaE |
wonder if that's what's causing my server issues - there's a lot of entities used there in the form of carts, boats, UFOs |
| 18:29 |
sokomine |
hm :-) they do work fine. i had only few problems with the last version of mobf. crashes where very rare (most of the time the client crashes for other reasons); and when the mobs changed their spawning it helped a lot. one remaining problem is that the mobs once started disappearing for no apparent reason |
| 18:29 |
RealBadAngel |
without it nothin related to animation wont run good |
| 18:29 |
sapier1 |
they are! if you use acceleration movement is smooth and done by client |
| 18:29 |
JesseH |
mob logic should be able to be done with Lua and work fine. |
| 18:29 |
sapier1 |
but as told before if using acceleratin minetest has a bad bug |
| 18:29 |
VanessaE |
sapier1: can you elaborate further? |
| 18:30 |
RealBadAngel |
which is? |
| 18:30 |
VanessaE |
sapier1: can you explain the conditions under which this bug is produced? Test cases? Methodology? |
| 18:30 |
VanessaE |
I really wanna know. |
| 18:30 |
sapier1 |
of course, theres a bugentry too by the way |
| 18:30 |
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Crisco joined #minetest |
| 18:31 |
sapier1 |
this bug occurs as soon as an entity is accelerated with a slightly larger value ... 10 for example |
| 18:31 |
sapier1 |
in minetests movement calculation loop minetest does collision detection |
| 18:32 |
sapier1 |
if anything is accelerated minetest checks if there is any colliding object between old position and new position |
| 18:32 |
sapier1 |
if you have accelerated objects this may be lots of blocks to check -> loop time increases --> even more blocks need to be checked next time |
| 18:33 |
mauvebic |
so, velocity |
| 18:33 |
mauvebic |
better? |
| 18:33 |
iqualfragile |
can somebody summarize the last bits of discussion? |
| 18:33 |
mauvebic |
or accel < 10 ? |
| 18:33 |
VanessaE |
iqualfragile: entities are busted. |
| 18:33 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 18:33 |
iqualfragile |
busted? in how far busted? |
| 18:33 |
sokomine |
how about jumping? that was the only way to accelerate players for some time (the trampolines) |
| 18:33 |
mauvebic |
theyre not busted |
| 18:33 |
Kacey |
can anyone help me compile minetest-irc? |
| 18:34 |
sapier1 |
it's no matter if it's 10 or 5 or 100 you need only one performance lag to enter this runaway state |
| 18:34 |
mauvebic |
a year ago five entities would lag my server, now, takes 20 :P |
| 18:34 |
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simion314 joined #minetest |
| 18:34 |
VanessaE |
Kacey: better to wait till later tonight, maybe in 6-7 hours kaeza should be here then |
| 18:34 |
JesseH |
I am at this point, wondering how entities are handled. |
| 18:34 |
JesseH |
20, lags a server??? |
| 18:34 |
iqualfragile |
jup |
| 18:34 |
sapier1 |
20 moving entities |
| 18:34 |
JesseH |
Still. |
| 18:35 |
* Kacey |
is going to go bash his head against a wall |
| 18:35 |
sapier1 |
the faster they move the worse the lag |
| 18:35 |
sokomine |
hm, i had about 100 mobs in one fenced-off area and that was causing hardly any performace drops at all. they didn't constantly drop, drown and die thanks to the fence |
| 18:35 |
VanessaE |
sapier1: does "moving" also include dropped entities that just sit there spinning? |
| 18:35 |
JesseH |
That must be some pretty calculation heavy math going on. |
| 18:35 |
VanessaE |
or does it have to be X/Y/Z movement? |
| 18:35 |
JesseH |
movement** not math |
| 18:35 |
RealBadAngel |
anybody seen a vid with 1k moving entities? |
| 18:35 |
iqualfragile |
and by laggin he mean healy lagging, it means that the server wont even send new chunks to players |
| 18:35 |
sapier1 |
if those dropped entities do have acceleration set might be too |
| 18:36 |
sapier1 |
but obviously collision detection will finish soon on objects at ground |
| 18:36 |
JesseH |
So it's, network heavy stuff. |
| 18:36 |
iqualfragile |
na, the server is just singlethreaded |
| 18:36 |
RealBadAngel |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Fv_HtzPLg |
| 18:36 |
moltenbot |
RealBadAngel's link: Stress test continues - YouTube |
| 18:37 |
iqualfragile |
and if a mod uses all the calculation-captabilities to search for a way to move or whatever there is nothing left for the other tasks |
| 18:37 |
JesseH |
iqualfragile, figured |
| 18:37 |
JesseH |
It has to be how its all handles, not the code that works the logic itself. |
| 18:37 |
JesseH |
engine level stuff |
| 18:37 |
NakedFury |
wow RBA lots of moving stuff |
| 18:37 |
NakedFury |
and in both directions |
| 18:37 |
* Kacey |
is wanting to bind a port to a false adress and see what happens |
| 18:37 |
sapier1 |
there's a simple solution for this problem ... Just add a top speed limit |
| 18:38 |
iqualfragile |
NakedFury: that vid is kindof old, you know… |
| 18:38 |
JesseH |
I am just wondering why I lag so bad on every server I get on. |
| 18:38 |
JesseH |
Not usual |
| 18:38 |
NakedFury |
how did you set the direction? and yes there should be a top speed dropping limit |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
check the technic code |
| 18:38 |
Kacey |
press alt+f4 JesseH |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
its all there |
| 18:38 |
iqualfragile |
RealBadAngel: the trees look great, maybee a bit more variety and the are perfect |
| 18:39 |
NakedFury |
I mean in the game |
| 18:39 |
iqualfragile |
(height for example) |
| 18:39 |
JesseH |
Kacey, what. |
| 18:39 |
NakedFury |
I actually like this new trees, bit more realistic when comparing the height of the character |
| 18:39 |
Kacey |
to fix the lag press alt+f4 |
| 18:39 |
RealBadAngel |
NakedFury, check injector.lua |
| 18:39 |
RealBadAngel |
all the entities code is there |
| 18:40 |
JesseH |
Kacey, go into terminal and type "rm *". |
| 18:40 |
Kacey |
rba, can things go from a pneumatic tube into a gold chest? |
| 18:40 |
NakedFury |
RealBadNAngel I mean inside the game how do I tell the direction they go, so maybe metals go one way and the other another |
| 18:40 |
VanessaE |
RealBadAngel: I still say you need to thin out the leaves - change your axioms/rules to give the trees more internal definition |
| 18:40 |
VanessaE |
RealBadAngel: for the sake of impressing c55 if nothing else ;) |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
i need to add more commands for the turtle to allow such things |
| 18:41 |
NakedFury |
leafs should always drop even when you "mine" them |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
and even then some1 has to write such tree in L-systems |
| 18:43 |
sapier1 |
does anyone know when forums are expected to be online again? |
| 18:43 |
VanessaE |
no idea but c55 already knows they're down. |
| 18:43 |
iqualfragile |
no, not even celeron55 said anything about it |
| 18:43 |
RealBadAngel |
NakedFury, i will collect all sources and providers connected, confront them, then find a path connecting source and a provider |
| 18:43 |
RealBadAngel |
item will just follow the path |
| 18:44 |
VanessaE |
[12-25 10:52] <celeron55> crap, where is minetest.net once again |
| 18:44 |
VanessaE |
in -dev. |
| 18:48 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest |
| 18:48 |
VanessaE |
Kacey: there he is. :-) |
| 18:48 |
kaeza |
hey hey V |
| 18:48 |
VanessaE |
kaeza: it's all your fault. |
| 18:48 |
VanessaE |
:-) |
| 18:48 |
VanessaE |
hi :-) |
| 18:48 |
kaeza |
lolwut |
| 18:48 |
Kacey |
ooh hai |
| 18:49 |
kaeza |
hi Kacey |
| 18:49 |
Kacey |
i need to compile minetest-irc |
| 18:49 |
kaeza |
what happened? |
| 18:49 |
kaeza |
am I goping to jail? :P |
| 18:49 |
kaeza |
ah |
| 18:50 |
kaeza |
do you have CMake already installed? |
| 18:50 |
Kacey |
i think so yes |
| 18:51 |
kaeza |
then cd <minetest-irc-dir> ; cmake . && make && make pack_mod |
| 18:52 |
kaeza |
on noes!! teh forumz r down!! |
| 18:53 |
Kacey |
thank you |
| 18:54 |
kaeza |
Kacey: was that the problem you were having? |
| 18:54 |
Kacey |
there is no bin folder |
| 18:54 |
|
mitori joined #minetest |
| 18:54 |
Kacey |
ooh duh |
| 18:54 |
Kacey |
i need to compile now |
| 18:54 |
kaeza |
nope |
| 18:54 |
kaeza |
there is no bin folder |
| 18:55 |
kaeza |
it should create an `irc' directory after you do "make "pack_mod" |
| 18:55 |
Kacey |
so after doing that one line it is done? |
| 18:55 |
kaeza |
yup |
| 18:55 |
kaeza |
if you got no errors, yes |
| 18:55 |
Kacey |
take the irc folder and put it in the mods folder? |
| 18:55 |
kaeza |
exactly |
| 18:56 |
kaeza |
bbiab |
| 18:57 |
Kacey |
error in init.lua |
| 18:59 |
Kacey |
[C]: in function 'require' |
| 19:00 |
Kacey |
maybe... |
| 19:09 |
OldCoder |
Hi |
| 19:10 |
OldCoder |
sokomine, there are 3D animals in the works |
| 19:10 |
sokomine |
hi oldcoder |
| 19:10 |
OldCoder |
An improved pig is coming I think |
| 19:10 |
OldCoder |
Howdy |
| 19:10 |
sokomine |
yes, i saw sapier online and am talking with him :-) |
| 19:10 |
OldCoder |
Kacey, you had a question about copies? |
| 19:10 |
Kacey |
naw i got it |
| 19:10 |
OldCoder |
All right |
| 19:10 |
OldCoder |
Naw right |
| 19:10 |
Kacey |
but i need kaeza |
| 19:11 |
sokomine |
hm. concerning pigs...it would be nice if they where wild pigs. those look diffrent than the domesticated version. they could be a bit aggressive and stealing stuff the player planted (corn, carrots, ...) and try to chase players a way. perhaps a bit like the wolf |
| 19:14 |
|
M13_ joined #minetest |
| 19:14 |
|
mrdragons joined #minetest |
| 19:15 |
OldCoder |
sokomine, that sounds fun |
| 19:15 |
OldCoder |
Boars are not bores :P |
| 19:15 |
Kacey |
hello m13 |
| 19:15 |
M13_ |
I got computer back |
| 19:15 |
OldCoder |
sokomine wishes wild boars |
| 19:15 |
Kacey |
i have xubuntu |
| 19:15 |
M13_ |
:-) |
| 19:15 |
OldCoder |
M13_, merry xmas |
| 19:15 |
M13_ |
thnx, you too |
| 19:15 |
M13_ |
OldCoder, please pm |
| 19:16 |
sdzen |
merry something to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUKku3MhCPs |
| 19:16 |
moltenbot |
sdzen's link: Merry Something To You - YouTube |
| 19:16 |
Kacey |
kaeza i have a problem |
| 19:17 |
sokomine |
yes :-) and more animals! and on all servers :-)))) |
| 19:18 |
* Kacey |
is going to go bash his head against a wall |
| 19:19 |
PilzAdam |
gtg; bye |
| 19:20 |
Kacey |
ooh wait i needed PilzAdam lol |
| 19:25 |
kaeza |
back |
| 19:25 |
kaeza |
what problem Kacey? |
| 19:26 |
kaeza |
hi OldCoder |
| 19:26 |
Kacey |
idk i cannot find it in debug.txt |
| 19:26 |
Kacey |
but it cannot run init.lua |
| 19:27 |
kaeza |
Kacey: do something: delete debug.txt, start the game, and when the error appears, quit the game, and upload your debug.txt |
| 19:27 |
Kacey |
k in a minute |
| 19:33 |
kaeza |
are the forums down? |
| 19:34 |
sokomine |
i have a strange bug recently with my linux desktop...klicking on a window (especially minetest) doesn't update it anymore. only clicking and then forcing some new images helps...strange |
| 19:35 |
kaeza |
sokomine: that happened to me with bugged gfx drivers |
| 19:35 |
kaeza |
are you using latest drivers for your card |
| 19:35 |
kaeza |
? |
| 19:38 |
Kacey |
kaeza can i dcc it to you |
| 19:38 |
kaeza |
yes |
| 19:39 |
OldCoder |
Hi |
| 19:39 |
Kacey |
did you get it? |
| 19:39 |
kaeza |
Kacey: got it |
| 19:39 |
|
Final joined #minetest |
| 19:39 |
sokomine |
it ought to be a relatively recent driver, yes |
| 19:41 |
kaeza |
Kacey: may I PM? |
| 19:41 |
Kacey |
sure |
| 19:46 |
sokomine |
it's a 4.5 years old onboard nvidia chipset. hard to tell what's going wrong there. maybe a memory leak somewhere? |
| 19:47 |
* Kacey |
is liking xubuntu |
| 19:51 |
kaeza |
sokomine: I had problems with older PCI NVidia cards on Linux |
| 19:52 |
Kacey |
how to i run a server on xubuntu for minetest |
| 19:54 |
sokomine |
same as elsewhere i think? start the server with the right params? |
| 19:54 |
Kacey |
how do i create the server |
| 19:54 |
Kacey |
like the server program |
| 19:54 |
sokomine |
bin/minetestserver --help |
| 19:55 |
Kacey |
i dont have minetestserver |
| 19:55 |
sokomine |
you have to supply the world it ought to use. help shows you the parameters. the worlds can even be listed |
| 19:55 |
sokomine |
you need that. it's the very server |
| 19:55 |
sokomine |
if you compiled it yourshelf it ought to rest in the bin/ folder next to the minetest-program (the client) |
| 19:56 |
Kacey |
i got a batch file |
| 19:59 |
Kacey |
hey kaeza |
| 19:59 |
sokomine |
did you compile it yourshelf or did you get a package for your distribution? |
| 20:00 |
|
STHGOM joined #minetest |
| 20:00 |
sokomine |
to my knowledge the minetestserver is started automaticly when you run the client and start a singleplayer game. thus you have to have it somewhere |
| 20:01 |
sapier1 |
no not quite it may be within minetest binary |
| 20:01 |
Kacey |
kaeza |
| 20:02 |
Kacey |
i am trying to test an irc client so anyone want to join go to 67.162.156.91 port 30000 |
| 20:02 |
sapier1 |
it is within minetest so if you disabled server on build you won't get a separate binary ... maybe it even won't be included in minetest client in this case but thats a guess |
| 20:02 |
* OldCoder |
will return in a little while |
| 20:02 |
sokomine |
oh? ok. didn't know that |
| 20:03 |
OldCoder |
sapier1, I have not reviewed scrollback. Is your mod or modset reasonable for the CPU and RAM on my worlds? |
| 20:03 |
kaeza |
back |
| 20:03 |
kaeza |
Kacey? |
| 20:04 |
sokomine |
hm. mobs on oldcoders worlds would be great :-) and oldcoder is online enough to take care of the server should anything go wrong |
| 20:04 |
Kacey |
please come test my server |
| 20:04 |
* sokomine |
grabs a few cows and sheep and leads them to calinous world on oldcoders server |
| 20:05 |
kaeza |
Kacey: IP? |
| 20:05 |
Kacey |
67.162.156.91 port 30000 |
| 20:06 |
sapier1 |
latest 1.9.0 version is not ready for production use I've done lots of code rewriting so for latest version you'd better wait until 2.0 ... 1.4.6 is quite stable but has some performance issues with ALL MOBS enabled sheep cow chicken and deer most likely will work for other animals you may need to try ... but be warned automatic removal of disabled mobs is a feature added in new versions |
| 20:06 |
kaeza |
Kacey: connecting :) |
| 20:07 |
sapier1 |
for testing servers 1.9.0 should be fine |
| 20:10 |
* VanessaE |
wanders back in panting and heaving and sweaty and dusty. |
| 20:10 |
VanessaE |
ever torn out a flight of stairs? |
| 20:10 |
* VanessaE |
<---- this is what it looks like. |
| 20:12 |
Jordach |
VanessaE, use the admin pick. much faster. |
| 20:13 |
VanessaE |
I guess what the IRL equivalent of that would be a Sawzall, which I didn't have permission to use :-) |
| 20:13 |
VanessaE |
(the contractor left all his tools and stuff here so he can continue after the holidays) |
| 20:14 |
NakedFury |
next time steal a truck from a construction site |
| 20:14 |
VanessaE |
so I did it all with a 4kg sledge and a crowbar :-) |
| 20:14 |
kaeza |
VanessaE: wish there was worldedit IRL... |
| 20:14 |
VanessaE |
kaeza: +100000000000 |
| 20:15 |
Jordach |
kaeza, id do this to so many people IRL it would be ridiculous |
| 20:15 |
Jordach |
and perhaps cover mexico in lava. |
| 20:15 |
Jordach |
<joke> |
| 20:15 |
Jordach |
(id probably be banned from life..._ |
| 20:15 |
Jordach |
) |
| 20:15 |
STHGOM |
brb |
| 20:16 |
|
STHGOM joined #minetest |
| 20:18 |
kaeza |
<joke>maybe, there are too many mobs in Mexico</joke> |
| 20:19 |
|
STHGOM joined #minetest |
| 20:19 |
|
STHGOM left #minetest |
| 20:19 |
kaeza |
well... everywhere |
| 20:19 |
|
STHGOM joined #minetest |
| 20:19 |
kaeza |
g*d planned to do a server restart on dec 21st, but he was a bit lazy :P |
| 20:21 |
VanessaE |
naw, he just needs to rebuild his client and ban a few million players, the server's been running fine despite a fuckton of griefing :-) |
| 20:22 |
VanessaE |
problem is some parts of the map are showing signs of corruption |
| 20:25 |
|
iqualfragile joined #minetest |
| 20:26 |
kaeza |
heh also it seems europe had about 1492 years of lag; the american chunks weren't getting to those parts |
| 20:27 |
STHGOM |
Hello! |
| 20:28 |
markveidemanis |
HELLO! |
| 20:28 |
iqualfragile |
hi |
| 20:28 |
VanessaE |
hi |
| 20:28 |
markveidemanis |
HI |
| 20:28 |
markveidemanis |
hello? |
| 20:29 |
sokomine |
hm :) people griefing rl might be strange. imagine thiefs running away with a cubic meter of stone :-) |
| 20:29 |
markveidemanis |
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA |
| 20:29 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 20:29 |
markveidemanis |
heh = HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH |
| 20:30 |
markveidemanis |
"=" = merry christmas |
| 20:30 |
markveidemanis |
============================ |
| 20:30 |
sokomine |
to you as well :-) |
| 20:30 |
markveidemanis |
and a happy new year for 2014 |
| 20:31 |
markveidemanis |
the whole "13" thing is unlucky |
| 20:31 |
markveidemanis |
lets just skip it |
| 20:31 |
Kacey |
lol /time 2014 |
| 20:32 |
markveidemanis |
HAHHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHH |
| 20:32 |
markveidemanis |
*cough |
| 20:33 |
markveidemanis |
*ATCHOOO KOOP |
| 20:33 |
Kacey |
lol instead of /clearobjects, /clearretards |
| 20:34 |
markveidemanis |
HAHAHAHAHAHA |
| 20:34 |
Kacey |
yes |
| 20:34 |
markveidemanis |
it is in minecraft |
| 20:34 |
Kacey |
edit fontlucidia.png |
| 20:34 |
markveidemanis |
its white, white is a colour |
| 20:34 |
|
STHGOM joined #minetest |
| 20:35 |
iqualfragile |
nope, white and black are no colours |
| 20:35 |
markveidemanis |
are forums down |
| 20:35 |
Kacey |
yes |
| 20:35 |
markveidemanis |
Y |
| 20:35 |
Kacey |
idk |
| 20:35 |
markveidemanis |
again... |
| 20:36 |
markveidemanis |
https://github.com/Zeg9 |
| 20:36 |
kaeza |
john_minetest: first, white *is* a color; second, the correct question would be "can you have multi-colored text in MT chat?", and third, it would be awesome to see this implemented |
| 20:36 |
markveidemanis |
hahahahahahahahahahhhhhh |
| 20:36 |
markveidemanis |
[20:33] <Kacey> lol instead of /clearobjects, /clearretards |
| 20:36 |
Kacey |
just change fontlucidia.png to the color you want |
| 20:36 |
kaeza |
Kacey: that does not work |
| 20:36 |
markveidemanis |
[20:36] <markveidemanis> [20:33] <Kacey> lol instead of /clearobjects, /clearretards <== LOL repost |
| 20:36 |
Kacey |
i did it once |
| 20:37 |
kaeza |
if you change font to say yellow you still have single-colored text |
| 20:37 |
* markveidemanis |
<== Awesome Guy |
| 20:37 |
markveidemanis |
haha |
| 20:37 |
Kacey |
but change each leter a diff. color |
| 20:37 |
kaeza |
Kacey: you don't get the point do you? |
| 20:37 |
Kacey |
ooh now i do |
| 20:38 |
markveidemanis |
ooohhh |
| 20:38 |
markveidemanis |
oooh |
| 20:38 |
markveidemanis |
ahhh |
| 20:38 |
markveidemanis |
<.> |
| 20:38 |
kaeza |
what if you want to say, e.g: [color=yellow]Hello![/color][color=red], world![/color] |
| 20:38 |
Kacey |
hmmmm maybe Calinou could make that |
| 20:39 |
|
jin_xi joined #minetest |
| 20:39 |
markveidemanis |
clearobjects ,, ,,, ,,,, , ,, |
| 20:40 |
markveidemanis |
...---..-.-.-.-..- ...-.---....-.--.-.-... ..--.-.--.-.-....-.- ...-.-.-.-.-..- .-. . .-.-.- .- |
| 20:40 |
markveidemanis |
morse |
| 20:40 |
markveidemanis |
<===================================================> |
| 20:40 |
markveidemanis |
anyguess? |
| 20:40 |
markveidemanis |
hmmmm |
| 20:41 |
markveidemanis |
is it hmmm or hmmmm or hmmmmm |
| 20:41 |
Kacey |
...----... |
| 20:41 |
markveidemanis |
or hmm |
| 20:41 |
VanessaE |
bbl |
| 20:41 |
markveidemanis |
or hm |
| 20:41 |
markveidemanis |
Kacey: s-?-s |
| 20:41 |
Kacey |
sos |
| 20:42 |
Kacey |
i know i failed at it |
| 20:42 |
markveidemanis |
]0 is not ----, its --- |
| 20:42 |
markveidemanis |
i am going to post a google link |
| 20:42 |
markveidemanis |
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=morse+code&um=1&hl=en&client=ubuntu&sa=N&tbo=d&channel=cs&biw=1024&bih=476&tbm=isch&tbnid=DTTmku7CMeU1gM:&imgrefurl=http://www.learnmorsecode.com/&docid=u_ijjvUyoadN4M&imgurl=http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pix/CW.gif&w=518&h=234&ei=iw_aUIO-N4mV0QXc8oCACw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=6&sig=106441845925408229611&page=1&tbnh=134&tbnw=252&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:157&tx=132&ty=63 |
| 20:43 |
kaeza |
markveidemanis: again, first follow the link and then copypasta the URL in the address bar |
| 20:43 |
markveidemanis |
i like copypasta |
| 20:43 |
markveidemanis |
http://www.learnmorsecode.com/ |
| 20:43 |
sokomine |
yes, more lines or a chat history would be good. also i'd like slightly larger font |
| 20:44 |
kaeza |
sokomine: you can't have them both, and expect to have a clean view of the game :) |
| 20:44 |
markveidemanis |
Nooooo |
| 20:44 |
Kacey |
i thing a image viewer would be awesome |
| 20:44 |
markveidemanis |
Noooooo |
| 20:44 |
markveidemanis |
<== |
| 20:45 |
Kacey |
think* |
| 20:45 |
sapier1 |
is someone her who can add the fix for github issue 229 to main? |
| 20:45 |
sokomine |
kaeza: yes, that's always the trouble :-) can't have everything at the same time. still..slightly larger font would be nice. the blocks are usually large enough to see them |
| 20:45 |
markveidemanis |
Texas ===> |
| 20:45 |
markveidemanis |
no, i have netbook |
| 20:45 |
markveidemanis |
1024x600 |
| 20:45 |
RealBadAngel |
weird winter this year, 3 days ago we had here -19 deg, now its +6 outside |
| 20:45 |
kaeza |
Kacey: I've been thinking on making screeenshot sharing mod |
| 20:46 |
markveidemanis |
make font smaller |
| 20:46 |
markveidemanis |
yay |
| 20:46 |
sokomine |
we had snow a few days ago. now its +11 |
| 20:46 |
|
ttk2 joined #minetest |
| 20:46 |
markveidemanis |
</whoops/> |
| 20:46 |
Kacey |
we had snow last night |
| 20:46 |
kaeza |
it's 35 degrees here |
| 20:46 |
kaeza |
beat that |
| 20:46 |
markveidemanis |
bye, |
| 20:46 |
markveidemanis |
Cya |
| 20:46 |
sokomine |
where do you live? |
| 20:46 |
RealBadAngel |
lol |
| 20:46 |
kaeza |
southern hemisphere |
| 20:47 |
sokomine |
ok. that makes sense :-) |
| 20:47 |
kaeza |
we just entered summer |
| 20:47 |
Kacey |
36 degrees here |
| 20:47 |
Kacey |
and we just entered winter |
| 20:47 |
kaeza |
36 degs F or C? |
| 20:47 |
Kacey |
f |
| 20:47 |
sokomine |
but we're expected to have winter now (germany). +11 degree celsius are far too much for this time. snow at christmas is rare |
| 20:47 |
kaeza |
35 degs C here |
| 20:48 |
OldCoder |
Hi |
| 20:48 |
OldCoder |
Back |
| 20:48 |
kaeza |
wb OC |
| 20:48 |
sokomine |
that's even worse. 20 degree....at christmas... |
| 20:48 |
OldCoder |
sokomine, But what of CPU for mobs? |
| 20:48 |
OldCoder |
Are they improving? |
| 20:48 |
* Kacey |
never got invited to the "table" |
| 20:48 |
RealBadAngel |
we shall switch to use xmas palms soon |
| 20:49 |
OldCoder |
xmas palms sound nice |
| 20:50 |
Kacey |
OldCoder never invited me to the "table" |
| 20:50 |
sokomine |
i had 100 mobs in a fenced-off small region. they behaved fine. also while running around i noticed no special lag (mapgen lags a lot even without mods). but i do use only "friendly" or at least natural mobs - that is, cows, sheep, birds, fishes, wolves...but no dm, vombies or the like. the aggressive mobs would be very annoying on a server one wants to build |
| 20:52 |
OldCoder |
Kacey, PM |
| 20:52 |
OldCoder |
Hmm |
| 20:52 |
OldCoder |
Will others comment on mobs? |
| 20:53 |
sapier1 |
if you do have problems with mobs I'd gladly help |
| 20:53 |
|
STHGOM joined #minetest |
| 20:54 |
OldCoder |
STHGOM, Hi |
| 20:54 |
OldCoder |
sapier1, sokomine very well I will evaluate mobs |
| 20:54 |
sokomine |
maybe mobs could be "sold" or "crafted" somehow. that way, people wishing for some on their meadows could place them in safe environements where too high acceleration doesn't occur and the mobs remain alive |
| 20:54 |
STHGOM |
Hello! |
| 20:54 |
sokomine |
hi |
| 20:55 |
sokomine |
players who want to focus on the survival-aspects might have diffrent needs |
| 20:58 |
sokomine |
no, i don't mean spawn eggs. more machines or npc where you could by animals |
| 20:58 |
|
Jeija joined #minetest |
| 20:58 |
sokomine |
that's the way you obtain them rl as well...catching a wild one might be difficult :-) |
| 21:00 |
STHGOM |
WHEAT! |
| 21:00 |
sokomine |
hi jeija |
| 21:00 |
sokomine |
er, buy animals |
| 21:01 |
Jeija |
Hi everyone! What's wrong with minetest.net btw? |
| 21:01 |
sokomine |
we don't know |
| 21:05 |
|
aldobr joined #minetest |
| 21:05 |
aldobr |
hi all |
| 21:06 |
Kacey |
bbl |
| 21:06 |
|
Kacey left #minetest |
| 21:08 |
kaeza |
hi aldobr |
| 21:08 |
kaeza |
is minetest.net down? |
| 21:08 |
aldobr |
i believe so |
| 21:08 |
aldobr |
i cant access it too |
| 21:10 |
aldobr |
i have no ideas left for a mod |
| 21:10 |
aldobr |
i wanted to make radios/telephones |
| 21:10 |
aldobr |
but they are useless if i cant filter shout messages |
| 21:10 |
STHGOM |
evil mod mod with outlaws :D |
| 21:10 |
STHGOM |
*mob mod |
| 21:11 |
aldobr |
i have some ideas for mob's |
| 21:11 |
aldobr |
but i dont want to enter that part of code now |
| 21:11 |
STHGOM |
okok |
| 21:11 |
STHGOM |
radio would be cool |
| 21:11 |
STHGOM |
then you could make internet! :D |
| 21:12 |
sokomine |
*g* |
| 21:12 |
STHGOM |
*g*? |
| 21:12 |
|
SpeedProg joined #minetest |
| 21:12 |
sapier1 |
:-) create textures for vombie model make them use guns/bows and you'll have your outlaw |
| 21:13 |
STHGOM |
: |
| 21:13 |
STHGOM |
:D |
| 21:13 |
STHGOM |
you could make a telegram thing with mesecons... |
| 21:14 |
sapier1 |
btw "guns" are already present dm or big_red use them |
| 21:14 |
Jordach |
how about cloning capsules for spawning animals? |
| 21:14 |
STHGOM |
for normal farming? |
| 21:15 |
sapier1 |
thougth about that too but how to make sure noone accidentaly removes them, how to ensure animals are not cloned to often |
| 21:15 |
Jordach |
attack a animal with a vessel filled with molecularized water to extract dna, add a heavy metal vessel; result |
| 21:15 |
STHGOM |
lol |
| 21:15 |
sokomine |
i'd still prefer the animals beeing sold somewhere... |
| 21:15 |
sapier1 |
lol ok ok you meant as additional mod |
| 21:15 |
Jordach |
perhaps few more things in between, like gene refining, but you get the point |
| 21:16 |
sokomine |
you could by a big box which contains the animal :-) |
| 21:16 |
Jordach |
animal crates |
| 21:16 |
STHGOM |
why dont two animals get "married" and have "kids"? |
| 21:16 |
sokomine |
place that, click on it, and the animal moves out into your stable/on your meadow :-) |
| 21:16 |
sapier1 |
thats already possible STHGOM |
| 21:16 |
STHGOM |
good |
| 21:16 |
sapier1 |
you only need to feed them |
| 21:17 |
mrdragons |
STHGOM: Well goats have kids. *shrugs* |
| 21:17 |
STHGOM |
lol |
| 21:17 |
sokomine |
sthgom: they do. if you place barns and have a female and a male of that species around they can produce a new one |
| 21:17 |
STHGOM |
for leading; you could have rope and lead animals to places |
| 21:18 |
sapier1 |
:-) that's a little bit more difficult |
| 21:18 |
|
Kacey joined #minetest |
| 21:18 |
STHGOM |
:D |
| 21:18 |
sokomine |
that would be nice as well. but can it be done? attachment seems to be too fixed for that |
| 21:18 |
STHGOM |
wheat? |
| 21:18 |
STHGOM |
oats? |
| 21:18 |
STHGOM |
FOOD??? |
| 21:19 |
sapier1 |
leaves |
| 21:19 |
sokomine |
the crates might do for now :-) buy one at a local shop (=some node like a chest) and place it where you want your animal :-) |
| 21:19 |
sokomine |
yes, leaves. works fine |
| 21:19 |
sokomine |
produces small animals which turn into grown-ups after some time |
| 21:19 |
* OldCoder |
smells CPUs burning :-) |
| 21:20 |
sapier1 |
but ain't |
| 21:20 |
* OldCoder |
likes the ideas of farms and animals though |
| 21:20 |
OldCoder |
No exploding CPUs? |
| 21:20 |
OldCoder |
All right |
| 21:20 |
OldCoder |
I will run animals |
| 21:20 |
OldCoder |
If they stabilize |
| 21:20 |
* sokomine |
puts a ...er...washing-clamp on oldcoders nose :) |
| 21:20 |
sapier1 |
animals do already have an on_step handler just checking if they need to grow is next to no additional load |
| 21:22 |
Jordach |
OldCoder, ensure the paste survives |
| 21:22 |
Kacey |
VanessaE are you on? |
| 21:23 |
aldobr |
create predators |
| 21:23 |
* Jordach |
needs to stop thinking of rude jokes |
| 21:23 |
aldobr |
plants -> vegetarians -> predators |
| 21:23 |
STHGOM |
*ROOOOOOAAARRRRRRRR |
| 21:23 |
* STHGOM |
is a BEAR!!! |
| 21:23 |
aldobr |
if there are too much vegetarians, predators increase killing more vegetarians |
| 21:23 |
aldobr |
else |
| 21:23 |
aldobr |
predators decrease |
| 21:23 |
aldobr |
etc |
| 21:24 |
aldobr |
what about natural selection ? :D |
| 21:24 |
aldobr |
make animal behaviour evolve |
| 21:24 |
OldCoder |
Jordach, PM as I am out of sync |
| 21:24 |
sapier1 |
would be great but doesn't work due to minetests chunk based world |
| 21:24 |
Jordach |
okay. |
| 21:24 |
sokomine |
hm. natural selection means: if there is no more cpu time for an animal it will get deleted? :-) |
| 21:24 |
aldobr |
kind of |
| 21:24 |
aldobr |
you can make the following |
| 21:24 |
aldobr |
run a simulating thread that abstracts the animals |
| 21:25 |
aldobr |
they get added to the chunk when the player passes by |
| 21:25 |
aldobr |
or removed when the player is no longer looking |
| 21:25 |
aldobr |
something like that |
| 21:25 |
aldobr |
we need a fit function |
| 21:25 |
sapier1 |
that would mean simulating the whole minetest world parallel to minetest ... I think you need some sort of compute cluster to do this properly |
| 21:25 |
aldobr |
hm |
| 21:25 |
aldobr |
:/ |
| 21:25 |
kaeza |
aldobr: that would be similar to the quake engine |
| 21:26 |
kaeza |
and BSP trees |
| 21:26 |
aldobr |
without the parallel world |
| 21:26 |
aldobr |
cant do evolution |
| 21:26 |
aldobr |
because evolution would be limited to happen only where the player is looking |
| 21:26 |
aldobr |
this would take forever to evolve |
| 21:26 |
aldobr |
but |
| 21:26 |
aldobr |
hm |
| 21:26 |
aldobr |
create another program |
| 21:26 |
aldobr |
wich only porpuse is to evolve |
| 21:26 |
aldobr |
let it run for some time |
| 21:27 |
aldobr |
evolve the animals until they become to behave like animals |
| 21:27 |
aldobr |
save the state to a file |
| 21:27 |
aldobr |
ship minetest with that startup file |
| 21:28 |
aldobr |
i can do that |
| 21:28 |
aldobr |
if someone does the lua coding |
| 21:28 |
sapier1 |
evolution means adapting to environment ;-) it's a funny idea but for a game like minetest a much more simple aproach gives better results |
| 21:28 |
M13 |
does anyone know if slitaz is capiable of running minetest? |
| 21:28 |
STHGOM |
like traning |
| 21:28 |
aldobr |
sapier1 i am thinking about a specific type of evolution |
| 21:28 |
sapier1 |
for example? |
| 21:28 |
aldobr |
wait |
| 21:29 |
aldobr |
i am searching for a youtube video |
| 21:29 |
sokomine |
yes, i think that evolution is too much. even if it's just the algorithm that's envolving |
| 21:29 |
aldobr |
it was very simple |
| 21:29 |
aldobr |
a car that evolves to drive |
| 21:30 |
aldobr |
instead of being born knowing how to drive |
| 21:30 |
sapier1 |
:-) i don't think evolution is simple ;-) |
| 21:30 |
aldobr |
it can be done in a simple way |
| 21:30 |
aldobr |
a random seed |
| 21:30 |
sokomine |
the needs are diffrent. mostly we need players to feel like in a world where animals are (like in rl). maybe...considering which animals one encounters most rl in a forrest...dogs might roam around everywhere. and npc |
| 21:30 |
aldobr |
the random see is used to decide the thresholds and connections of a small neural network |
| 21:30 |
sapier1 |
show me I'm always eager to learn new ways of doing something |
| 21:30 |
aldobr |
in the case of minetest animals |
| 21:30 |
aldobr |
the neural network dont need to be big |
| 21:30 |
sokomine |
that way, the most "fit" for survival animal would be one that never gets close to a player.... |
| 21:30 |
aldobr |
something like 20 neurons per animal is enough |
| 21:31 |
sokomine |
players are major threads to npc! |
| 21:31 |
sokomine |
well, if you could teach them not to fall down, that might help. but then it's a question of cpu-usage |
| 21:31 |
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| 21:31 |
aldobr |
they will have to "copulate" |
| 21:31 |
sapier1 |
neuronal network ai ... would be worth a try .. but is don't think as less as 20 would be enough |
| 21:32 |
aldobr |
making crossover breed |
| 21:32 |
aldobr |
at the start they will be pretty dump |
| 21:32 |
aldobr |
but falling down will teach some lessons |
| 21:32 |
aldobr |
:P |
| 21:33 |
aldobr |
i am still searching for the video |
| 21:33 |
sapier1 |
you know in minetest you most likely only have a chance to compute every 250 ms |
| 21:33 |
* sokomine |
lets the super hostile die out |
| 21:34 |
sapier1 |
already possible in mobf @john_minetest |
| 21:35 |
aldobr |
found the video |
| 21:36 |
aldobr |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0jNMmdRMSo |
| 21:36 |
moltenbot |
aldobr's link: Genetic Algorithm + Artificial Neural Network minesweepers - YouTube |
| 21:36 |
aldobr |
videos |
| 21:36 |
aldobr |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Str0Rdkxxo&feature=related |
| 21:36 |
moltenbot |
aldobr's link: Neural Network Demo - YouTube |
| 21:36 |
aldobr |
they start quite stupid |
| 21:36 |
aldobr |
over time the get smarter |
| 21:36 |
aldobr |
but they dont have multi-billion-cells brains either |
| 21:37 |
sapier1 |
there's a parameter "starts_attack" and another one angryness regulating mobs chances to fight back |
| 21:40 |
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| 21:41 |
aldobr2 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Str0Rdkxxo&feature=related <- that car is controlled by a neural network + Genetic algorithmn |
| 21:41 |
moltenbot |
aldobr2's link: Neural Network Demo - YouTube |
| 21:41 |
aldobr2 |
over time it improves |
| 21:43 |
sapier1 |
but that car does have only a 2d world, 2 modifyable parameters and a clear sense of "improovement" |
| 21:43 |
|
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| 21:43 |
aldobr |
grrrrrrr |
| 21:43 |
aldobr |
my network |
| 21:43 |
aldobr |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Str0Rdkxxo&feature=related <- that car is controlled by a neural network + Genetic algorithmn |
| 21:43 |
moltenbot |
aldobr's link: Neural Network Demo - YouTube |
| 21:43 |
sapier1 |
and 5 in and 5 optimizable parameters |
| 21:44 |
aldobr |
make it so that mobs that get deactivated by going out of the chunk the player is |
| 21:44 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: I know that feel bro :) |
| 21:44 |
aldobr |
are saved |
| 21:44 |
aldobr |
so this will improve their fleeing behaviour |
| 21:44 |
sapier1 |
not exactly that will improove their ability to stay away from walls |
| 21:44 |
aldobr |
imputs are nearby blocks relative heigth to the current block the mob occupies |
| 21:45 |
aldobr |
they will |
| 21:45 |
aldobr |
cause they should have two drives |
| 21:45 |
aldobr |
flee and eat |
| 21:45 |
aldobr |
the vector towards the nearest food is an input |
| 21:45 |
sapier1 |
that's far from enough in a 3d world |
| 21:45 |
aldobr |
so some will be overwhelmed by the desire to flee |
| 21:45 |
aldobr |
others will be overwhelmed by the desire to eat |
| 21:45 |
aldobr |
ah |
| 21:45 |
Kacey |
we need a rivers mod |
| 21:45 |
aldobr |
we need another desire : reproduction |
| 21:45 |
sdzen |
to eat players? |
| 21:46 |
aldobr |
eat their food |
| 21:46 |
sapier1 |
yes and you need improovable algorithms for pathfinding in 3d worlds |
| 21:46 |
aldobr |
if it happens to be the player, thats a problem for players ;P |
| 21:46 |
aldobr |
sapier1 they dont need path find |
| 21:46 |
aldobr |
because they dont have any objective |
| 21:46 |
aldobr |
they simple roam |
| 21:46 |
aldobr |
looking for food and reproduction |
| 21:46 |
aldobr |
and to stay alive |
| 21:46 |
RealBadAngel |
sapier i do have pathfinding algorithms in my tubes |
| 21:46 |
sapier1 |
true that'd be done by a network complex enough |
| 21:47 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 21:47 |
aldobr |
i say to you, theres no need for path finding |
| 21:47 |
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| 21:47 |
sapier1 |
your tubes are much more deterministic than minetest real world |
| 21:47 |
aldobr |
just basic desires |
| 21:47 |
Kacey |
i would love to see this mod |
| 21:47 |
sapier1 |
i understand what you mean aldobr but an animal must have at least basic abilitys to fullfill it's desires |
| 21:48 |
aldobr |
sapier1 |
| 21:48 |
Kacey |
would it be possible to make a rivers and waterfalls mod? |
| 21:48 |
aldobr |
their intelligence is already in their genes |
| 21:49 |
aldobr |
the ones that get stuck in a hole will be unable to breed and eat |
| 21:49 |
aldobr |
so they die without childs to perpetuate their genes |
| 21:49 |
RealBadAngel |
Kacey, wait for new mapgen coming soon |
| 21:49 |
sapier1 |
yes I now the basic concept about neuronal networks |
| 21:49 |
Kacey |
ooh yay |
| 21:49 |
sapier1 |
the car demo you showed is a very basic one |
| 21:50 |
aldobr |
if you watch the video |
| 21:50 |
sapier1 |
1 clear target (number of white lines passed) |
| 21:50 |
aldobr |
you will see that the first ones are so stupid that they run towards the wall instead of avoiding the wall |
| 21:50 |
RealBadAngel |
there are two version of mapgen coming |
| 21:50 |
aldobr |
= their neurons are connected wrongly |
| 21:50 |
sapier1 |
5 optimizable parameters (distance of angles to edge of track) |
| 21:50 |
sapier1 |
and 2 parameters to modify |
| 21:50 |
sapier1 |
speed and rotation |
| 21:51 |
STHGOM |
btw aldobr do you still need ideas? |
| 21:51 |
aldobr |
yes |
| 21:51 |
STHGOM |
map mod? |
| 21:51 |
sapier1 |
so optimizable parameters for mob would be |
| 21:51 |
sokomine |
yes, but how many animals will it take so that these selection effects have an effect? |
| 21:51 |
aldobr |
sokomine i believe a huge ammount |
| 21:51 |
aldobr |
so we will run a "controlled environment" simulation for a time |
| 21:52 |
aldobr |
save the genes of the best results |
| 21:52 |
sapier1 |
distance angle to food | distance angle to next animal to breed | distance angle to enemy (each with multiple values) |
| 21:52 |
aldobr |
and ship the game with that seeds |
| 21:53 |
sokomine |
the trouble is: with a world like minetest, you need realism only to a limited degree. the mobs need to serve the player. survival...is only insofar important as a new mob spawning eats cpu time. and animals jumping to their death do not convince players that the animals are realistic enough |
| 21:53 |
sapier1 |
speed, angle x,y, altitude change as changeable parameters |
| 21:53 |
sapier1 |
but what to optimize? in a 3d world there's lot to check |
| 21:54 |
sokomine |
at which distance are animals disabled? |
| 21:54 |
Kacey |
how about at viewing distance |
| 21:54 |
Kacey |
brb |
| 21:54 |
sapier1 |
not much mor than you can see |
| 21:54 |
Kacey |
afk |
| 21:54 |
sokomine |
hm, yes. "don't run faster than you can see" might be a good rule :-) |
| 21:54 |
RealBadAngel |
work on loaded blocks |
| 21:54 |
RealBadAngel |
not view range |
| 21:55 |
aldobr |
add a rule |
| 21:55 |
sokomine |
ah. so it's difficult to tell what will be loaded? |
| 21:55 |
RealBadAngel |
no |
| 21:55 |
aldobr |
that says that if the animal fleed far enough to become deactivated |
| 21:55 |
RealBadAngel |
you dont care bout it |
| 21:55 |
aldobr |
it is saved |
| 21:55 |
sokomine |
(except when fleeing from a predator like a player) |
| 21:55 |
aldobr |
this improves their desire to flee |
| 21:55 |
sokomine |
but deactivated animals won't reproduce either |
| 21:55 |
aldobr |
yes but their seed is saved |
| 21:55 |
RealBadAngel |
add serialize to store animal when unloading, and deserialize when block gets loaded |
| 21:55 |
sokomine |
it might be very intresting as a game of its own |
| 21:56 |
aldobr |
as soon as the animal is out of sight |
| 21:56 |
sapier1 |
so as soon as a new chunk is loaded maybe thousands of fleed animals get activated at once ;) |
| 21:56 |
aldobr |
they dont exist anymore |
| 21:56 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 21:56 |
aldobr |
seed pool |
| 21:56 |
aldobr |
if an animal is out of sight |
| 21:56 |
aldobr |
instead of being saved (then) |
| 21:56 |
aldobr |
save his seed with a score |
| 21:56 |
aldobr |
and kill it |
| 21:56 |
sapier1 |
not possible in minetest |
| 21:56 |
aldobr |
when a new chunk is loaded |
| 21:56 |
sapier1 |
as soon as an entity leaves loaded chunk area its unloaded |
| 21:56 |
aldobr |
select a random number of animals to create |
| 21:57 |
aldobr |
create then using the seeds saved in the pool |
| 21:57 |
sapier1 |
there's no way to do something on chunk load |
| 21:57 |
STHGOM |
lol |
| 21:57 |
aldobr |
maybe we need to add a new lua entry ? |
| 21:57 |
aldobr |
"register on chunk load" ? |
| 21:57 |
RealBadAngel |
i do have items in tubes goin round and round |
| 21:57 |
sokomine |
what we need most for them can be done already: models and animations so that their "behaviour" does not seem too strange for players. those are completely diffrent aspects...."surviving" and "giving players a good gameplay". we need the later one |
| 21:57 |
RealBadAngel |
can leave the area and go back |
| 21:58 |
RealBadAngel |
and they will be still moving |
| 21:58 |
sapier1 |
considering how slow mapgen is i don't think doing this on any chunk load is a good idea |
| 21:58 |
sokomine |
if you really go into animals players want to fight with, it would be a terrible idea if said animals would be *too good* at fleeing |
| 21:58 |
RealBadAngel |
i will show you something |
| 21:58 |
aldobr |
real life animals are too good at fleeing |
| 21:58 |
aldobr |
thats why hunters used bows and guns |
| 21:58 |
aldobr |
not swords |
| 21:59 |
* VanessaE |
wanders back in |
| 21:59 |
aldobr |
you cant hunt a deer using a full metal armour and a sword |
| 21:59 |
RealBadAngel |
sapier1, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySI38AOIfAA |
| 21:59 |
moltenbot |
RealBadAngel's link: Unload/Load with items in tubes - YouTube |
| 21:59 |
aldobr |
he will simply out run you |
| 22:00 |
sapier1 |
that's not what I meant, of course they will move again as soon as the chunk is loaded. think about following case |
| 22:00 |
sapier1 |
an animal is spawned next to a chunk boundary |
| 22:00 |
sapier1 |
it moves towards the boundery thus beeing unloaded |
| 22:00 |
sapier1 |
next one is spawned ... doing same thing ... again and again |
| 22:01 |
aldobr |
thats why i want do add mobs only at chunk load |
| 22:01 |
sapier1 |
now player moves and the former unloaded chunk is now loaded ---> hundreds and thousands of mobs are loaded at once |
| 22:01 |
aldobr |
add a new lua function minetest.register_on_chunk_load |
| 22:01 |
aldobr |
minetest.register_on_chunk_unload |
| 22:01 |
RealBadAngel |
in minecraft hostlie mobs were spawning/despawning only in certain range around player |
| 22:01 |
sapier1 |
as I already told, this will introduce lots of additional lag to minetest |
| 22:02 |
aldobr |
well sapier1 |
| 22:02 |
aldobr |
this needs to be teste |
| 22:02 |
aldobr |
you cant know for sure without test |
| 22:02 |
aldobr |
*tested |
| 22:02 |
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| 22:02 |
sapier1 |
of course ... but we already have very similar case ... mapgen |
| 22:02 |
aldobr |
i remmember algorithmn complexity lessons |
| 22:02 |
Kacey_ |
hello |
| 22:02 |
aldobr |
omg my algorithmn is o(n^2) |
| 22:02 |
aldobr |
this is too costly ! |
| 22:03 |
aldobr |
what happens if O is soo small that even with N^2 |
| 22:03 |
aldobr |
the endresult is the same as another algorithmn that does O(N) ? |
| 22:04 |
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| 22:04 |
RealBadAngel |
sapier, so despawn (kill) hostile mobs on unload or when too far from the player |
| 22:04 |
sapier1 |
you have to consider that evolution is an effect only working on huge numbers of individuals so your O never can be small if you expect any reasonable effect |
| 22:04 |
aldobr |
sapier1 |
| 22:04 |
aldobr |
thats why we will need a teste case version |
| 22:04 |
aldobr |
to let it run for a long time |
| 22:04 |
aldobr |
and get results |
| 22:04 |
aldobr |
then ship only reasonable seeds |
| 22:04 |
RealBadAngel |
and make a limit of active mobs in loaded area |
| 22:04 |
aldobr |
RealBadAngel exact |
| 22:05 |
RealBadAngel |
but that should apply only to hostile mobs |
| 22:05 |
RealBadAngel |
not to breadable ones |
| 22:05 |
sapier1 |
you know how small minetests current limit for active mobs is= |
| 22:05 |
aldobr |
think |
| 22:05 |
aldobr |
does it really care |
| 22:05 |
aldobr |
if the vombie that attacked me |
| 22:05 |
aldobr |
is the same that attacked john doer ? |
| 22:06 |
sapier1 |
for scientific cases it's not but for a game it is |
| 22:06 |
aldobr |
why ? |
| 22:06 |
aldobr |
they have the same behaviour |
| 22:06 |
aldobr |
brains ! brains ! |
| 22:06 |
sapier1 |
wait I thing we're talking of different things atm |
| 22:07 |
sapier1 |
I'm talking about the active mob limit |
| 22:07 |
aldobr |
set a limit to active mobs |
| 22:07 |
aldobr |
kill anything that exceeds |
| 22:07 |
aldobr |
save their seed in a pool |
| 22:07 |
sapier1 |
bad idea |
| 22:07 |
aldobr |
kill anything that strays out of visible area |
| 22:07 |
aldobr |
save their seeds |
| 22:07 |
aldobr |
et |
| 22:07 |
aldobr |
etc |
| 22:07 |
sapier1 |
ppl get mad if their stable is empty |
| 22:07 |
aldobr |
hm |
| 22:08 |
aldobr |
i was not taking domestication into account |
| 22:08 |
aldobr |
that makes everything harder |
| 22:08 |
RealBadAngel |
i already told that, despawnin should only apply to hostile ones |
| 22:08 |
RealBadAngel |
appearing and walkin away randomly |
| 22:08 |
sapier1 |
first step would be creating mobs fulfilling only one need .. getting food |
| 22:09 |
RealBadAngel |
breeded ones shall be stored in every case |
| 22:09 |
aldobr |
food and to stay alive |
| 22:09 |
aldobr |
out of player hands |
| 22:09 |
sapier1 |
if and only if that works at all adding predators would be an option |
| 22:10 |
sapier1 |
but finding food in a 3d world is a much more complex task to achieve than staying in the middle of a track |
| 22:10 |
aldobr |
real world animals find food by pure luck |
| 22:10 |
sapier1 |
not quite |
| 22:10 |
aldobr |
you will say that they have senses |
| 22:10 |
aldobr |
like smell |
| 22:10 |
|
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| 22:11 |
aldobr |
but even then |
| 22:11 |
aldobr |
its luck |
| 22:11 |
sapier1 |
real world animals have born in algorithms |
| 22:11 |
RealBadAngel |
if you wont encounter same problem that australia had with rabbits |
| 22:11 |
tjbarber |
Hey guys, the minetest website is down for me. Could someone get me the link to the Mac binary download? |
| 22:11 |
aldobr |
because smelling food is an random event |
| 22:11 |
tjbarber |
thanks in advance ;) |
| 22:11 |
kaeza1 |
tjbarber: hi! |
| 22:11 |
kaeza1 |
yes minetest.net is down |
| 22:12 |
aldobr |
"find object in radius" |
| 22:12 |
tjbarber |
hey there ;P |
| 22:12 |
aldobr |
search for mob food in a radius |
| 22:12 |
aldobr |
this can account for "smell" or "seeing" the food |
| 22:12 |
aldobr |
calculate a vector towards the food |
| 22:12 |
aldobr |
either will happen |
| 22:12 |
sapier1 |
works 2d only |
| 22:12 |
aldobr |
the animal will lose track of the food |
| 22:13 |
aldobr |
while trying to reach it without falling into a pit |
| 22:13 |
sapier1 |
but would be worth a try |
| 22:13 |
aldobr |
or will reach it |
| 22:13 |
aldobr |
or stay stuck |
| 22:13 |
aldobr |
a stuck animal is easy to hunt |
| 22:13 |
aldobr |
so he dies |
| 22:13 |
NakedFury |
give a view/hear range stat to mobs. if they see food in their range they go to eat |
| 22:13 |
aldobr |
and leaves no childs |
| 22:13 |
aldobr |
his seed is removed from the pool |
| 22:14 |
sapier1 |
you know we need to simulate all the behaviour real world animals do which have far more complex brains than we will be able to simulate |
| 22:14 |
aldobr |
well |
| 22:14 |
aldobr |
if we manage to simulate an amoeba |
| 22:14 |
ZOMBIEEEEE |
BRAINZZZZ |
| 22:14 |
aldobr |
i would be very proud :P |
| 22:14 |
tjbarber |
what is the latest version? |
| 22:14 |
sapier1 |
ok we have blocks in this world true ... but movement is as complex as in real world |
| 22:14 |
RealBadAngel |
0.4.4 is the latest stable |
| 22:15 |
aldobr |
make another input |
| 22:15 |
aldobr |
based on terrain surroundings |
| 22:15 |
tjbarber |
ok. Thanks RealBadAngel. Right now I was able to find a copy of 0.4 dev release for Mac |
| 22:15 |
aldobr |
impassable = more than 1 block in height difference |
| 22:15 |
aldobr |
passabe = 0 or 1 height difference |
| 22:15 |
aldobr |
unless the animal is a bird |
| 22:16 |
sapier1 |
don't talk about birds |
| 22:16 |
aldobr |
that opens a whole different setup |
| 22:16 |
aldobr |
animals with good seeds will learn to avoid moving into directions that lead to bigger than 1 height differences |
| 22:16 |
aldobr |
because they could either fall and die outright |
| 22:16 |
aldobr |
or get stuck in a concave structure |
| 22:17 |
aldobr |
and be hunted by their predator |
| 22:17 |
NakedFury |
I guess the AI will work better if written in C++ right? |
| 22:17 |
sapier1 |
sorry can you please stop telling "and magicaly it learns and everything is fine" ... miracles don't occur that easy |
| 22:17 |
aldobr |
sure |
| 22:17 |
kaeza1 |
NakedFury: +1 |
| 22:17 |
aldobr |
sapier1 its not miracle |
| 22:17 |
aldobr |
its natural selection |
| 22:17 |
aldobr |
it has done quite impressive things in the real world |
| 22:17 |
sapier1 |
no it's neuronal networks combined wit natural selection |
| 22:17 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: pathfinding in a 3D world is no easy task |
| 22:17 |
aldobr |
kaeza1 no need for pathfinding |
| 22:18 |
aldobr |
animals have no stated objective |
| 22:18 |
aldobr |
they simply roam |
| 22:18 |
aldobr |
all they need is to avoid some critical pitfalls |
| 22:18 |
NakedFury |
aldobr that insane AI you want would need sapier1 through sapier99 working on it non stop for some years to work for minetest |
| 22:18 |
aldobr |
and keep roaming |
| 22:18 |
|
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| 22:18 |
sapier1 |
neuronal networks are good things to manage complex tasks with no exact solution ... but I think you underestimate computational needs by some degrees |
| 22:18 |
aldobr |
we need to check the real computational need |
| 22:19 |
aldobr |
i dont know |
| 22:19 |
aldobr |
is 20 neurons enough ? |
| 22:19 |
aldobr |
200 ? |
| 22:19 |
aldobr |
20000000 ? |
| 22:19 |
aldobr |
only a model can answer that |
| 22:19 |
sapier1 |
to check the computational need to create the full environment to learn ... which is lot of work to do |
| 22:19 |
aldobr |
the world is not exectly 3d for a mob |
| 22:20 |
sapier1 |
it is 3d |
| 22:20 |
aldobr |
its a 2d map of heights |
| 22:20 |
aldobr |
because most mobs cant fly |
| 22:20 |
aldobr |
nor can change the environment in meaningfull ways |
| 22:20 |
orbitaldecay |
the last thing you want to use in a real time AI for a game is a neural network |
| 22:20 |
orbitaldecay |
slow slow slow |
| 22:20 |
sapier1 |
thre still can be bridges in this world |
| 22:20 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: you cannot convert a 3d world to a 2d heightmap |
| 22:20 |
aldobr |
too hard to explain in english |
| 22:21 |
kaeza1 |
no I understand what you say |
| 22:21 |
aldobr |
you can flatten the 3d structure |
| 22:21 |
sapier1 |
no you cant |
| 22:21 |
aldobr |
check only what is at the same level as the mob |
| 22:21 |
sapier1 |
at least not for all situations |
| 22:21 |
kaeza1 |
but at the sane (X,Z), you can have several Y's |
| 22:21 |
kaeza1 |
same* |
| 22:21 |
aldobr |
yes |
| 22:21 |
aldobr |
but you can simply ignore |
| 22:21 |
aldobr |
because the mobs will simply roam |
| 22:22 |
aldobr |
flatten the structure |
| 22:22 |
sapier1 |
no you can't that cases you want to ignore are those cases causing 99% of troubles |
| 22:22 |
aldobr |
tell me one |
| 22:22 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: that could mean a mob cannot "roam" inside a cave for example |
| 22:22 |
NakedFury |
too much trouble, go with minecraft style AI |
| 22:22 |
aldobr |
kaeza1 so what ? |
| 22:22 |
kaeza1 |
because he would see other Y |
| 22:22 |
sapier1 |
neither could it walk through a hole in a wall |
| 22:22 |
aldobr |
i am seeing a solution |
| 22:22 |
aldobr |
where all those things are immaterial |
| 22:22 |
orbitaldecay |
yeah, I'm doing graduate study in machine learning, its way more messy than people realize |
| 22:23 |
Kacey |
back |
| 22:23 |
aldobr |
machine learning is a big field with lots of subtopics |
| 22:23 |
kaeza1 |
wb Kacey |
| 22:23 |
orbitaldecay |
indeed it is |
| 22:23 |
aldobr |
i would be afraid of making such a sweeping generalization |
| 22:23 |
aldobr |
even because i dont know much about that field |
| 22:23 |
orbitaldecay |
I'm not lol |
| 22:23 |
sapier1 |
i know this @orbitaldecay beginners lessons always tell "you can do everything" but if you look into details you see those details require much more time and attention than everything else |
| 22:24 |
aldobr |
you are raising details |
| 22:24 |
aldobr |
but not giving just one sample |
| 22:24 |
sapier1 |
I've already told 3d worlds with multiple levels of surface |
| 22:24 |
aldobr |
kaeza1 i am thinking in a solution |
| 22:24 |
aldobr |
where even flattening the world |
| 22:24 |
aldobr |
the mob WILL enter caves |
| 22:24 |
sapier1 |
you can't flatten that world |
| 22:25 |
aldobr |
yes you can :) |
| 22:25 |
sapier1 |
how? |
| 22:25 |
orbitaldecay |
I would love to see someone implement a practical machine learning algorithm for minetest |
| 22:25 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: no you cant |
| 22:25 |
orbitaldecay |
but I will believe it when I see it |
| 22:25 |
aldobr |
yes you can :D hahaha |
| 22:25 |
NakedFury |
orbital do it as your tesis project |
| 22:25 |
NakedFury |
:D |
| 22:25 |
orbitaldecay |
that would be fun :D |
| 22:25 |
aldobr |
make a 2d map |
| 22:25 |
aldobr |
of the relative height of surroundings |
| 22:25 |
sapier1 |
you need to create a 2d map on the fly everytime you do your calculations |
| 22:25 |
aldobr |
going upwards that height is measured from the bottom of blocks |
| 22:26 |
aldobr |
going downwards that height is measured from the top of blocks |
| 22:26 |
aldobr |
you dont need to make a big 2d map |
| 22:26 |
aldobr |
just a map like 5x5 |
| 22:26 |
sapier1 |
ok probably i dont understand but if a mob is standing on surface |
| 22:26 |
aldobr |
enough to detect food |
| 22:26 |
aldobr |
and predators |
| 22:26 |
aldobr |
it WILL enter the cave |
| 22:26 |
sapier1 |
plz forget about predators |
| 22:27 |
tjbarber |
wait is there even a Mac binary or is it just win32? xD |
| 22:27 |
aldobr |
because the cave will show up as open |
| 22:27 |
sapier1 |
just start with simple things bevore adding whol complexity |
| 22:27 |
tjbarber |
found minetest's github |
| 22:27 |
|
Jakssoul joined #minetest |
| 22:27 |
sapier1 |
there is no "cave" |
| 22:27 |
Jakssoul |
Hola. |
| 22:27 |
sapier1 |
there are just blocks |
| 22:27 |
aldobr |
sapier1 |
| 22:27 |
orbitaldecay |
aldobr: wouldn't the mobs all eventually get stuck in pits? |
| 22:27 |
aldobr |
orbitaldecay yes |
| 22:28 |
orbitaldecay |
how would you prevent it? |
| 22:28 |
tjbarber |
hi jakssoul ;) |
| 22:28 |
aldobr |
and die out of hunger |
| 22:28 |
aldobr |
mobs that die are removed from the gene pool |
| 22:28 |
Jakssoul |
tjbarber, have we spoken before? |
| 22:28 |
sapier1 |
that's problem that shall be fixed by evolution and neuronal networks which might even work |
| 22:28 |
aldobr |
just need a way to detect whats a pit |
| 22:28 |
orbitaldecay |
what would stop the entire population from dying that way? |
| 22:28 |
aldobr |
nothing |
| 22:28 |
sapier1 |
now you get the point |
| 22:28 |
orbitaldecay |
before anyone learns how? |
| 22:28 |
tjbarber |
Jakssoul, maybe... I hang around on Freenode |
| 22:28 |
sapier1 |
aldobr you only have blocks and distances |
| 22:28 |
aldobr |
but how do we know without even modelling the thing to see if its feasible ? |
| 22:29 |
orbitaldecay |
aldobr: I think modeling it is a great idea |
| 22:29 |
Jakssoul |
I'd remember ya, I don't think we have. It's funny that you'd say hi when people I speak to all the time won't. >_> |
| 22:29 |
orbitaldecay |
but I think it will be hard to do |
| 22:29 |
sapier1 |
there is no "cave" "pit" "bridge" "whole" or anything like that |
| 22:29 |
aldobr |
sapier1 yes there are |
| 22:29 |
tjbarber |
lol! |
| 22:29 |
aldobr |
if you find an algorithmn to heuristically detect what is a cave |
| 22:29 |
aldobr |
what is a pit |
| 22:29 |
aldobr |
etc |
| 22:29 |
orbitaldecay |
supposing that there are, being able to recognize a pit or a hole and actually avoiding it are two different things |
| 22:29 |
sapier1 |
lol |
| 22:30 |
orbitaldecay |
both of which are pretty hard |
| 22:30 |
orbitaldecay |
I think |
| 22:30 |
sapier1 |
that's not possible ... your neuronal network will have to create that algortithm |
| 22:30 |
orbitaldecay |
but it sounds like a fun project |
| 22:30 |
aldobr |
nope |
| 22:30 |
aldobr |
i am right now thinking about a way |
| 22:30 |
sapier1 |
tell me |
| 22:31 |
aldobr |
cut the world |
| 22:31 |
aldobr |
only the same Y as the mob |
| 22:31 |
aldobr |
5x5 or more |
| 22:31 |
aldobr |
if a node is "default:air" |
| 22:31 |
aldobr |
seek downwards and upwards until finding something that blocks passage |
| 22:32 |
aldobr |
when seeking downards |
| 22:32 |
aldobr |
the top face is taking as the measure point |
| 22:32 |
aldobr |
when seeking upwards |
| 22:32 |
aldobr |
the bottom face is taken as the measure point |
| 22:32 |
sapier1 |
far to slow ... you need to use mobs position as base ... but thats detail only |
| 22:32 |
aldobr |
measure it to the mob's current Y |
| 22:32 |
aldobr |
this will generate a heigth map |
| 22:32 |
aldobr |
you flattened the world... |
| 22:32 |
aldobr |
look |
| 22:33 |
aldobr |
theres a cave -40000 from the current mob position |
| 22:33 |
aldobr |
does it matter ? |
| 22:33 |
sapier1 |
ok I'm still listening |
| 22:33 |
aldobr |
when you are playing |
| 22:33 |
aldobr |
sometimes there are caves -2000 blocks from your current position |
| 22:33 |
aldobr |
but you dont care |
| 22:33 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest |
| 22:33 |
aldobr |
because you dont even know that they are there |
| 22:33 |
Jakssoul |
hola kaeze! |
| 22:33 |
Jakssoul |
kaeza* |
| 22:33 |
sapier1 |
you know follow movement gen currently splits world n 3x3 squares and even this is to slow for minetest? |
| 22:33 |
aldobr |
sapier1 is this done in C++ ? |
| 22:33 |
kaeza |
o hai Jakssoul |
| 22:34 |
kaeza |
hi john_minetest |
| 22:34 |
orbitaldecay |
+1 |
| 22:34 |
sapier1 |
no it ain't but you don't need to believe c is doing miracles |
| 22:34 |
Jakssoul |
kaeza, is there a binary release of Minetest for Max? tjbarber asked me and I'm not entirely sure. |
| 22:34 |
kaeza |
john_minetest: mobs were in C++ prior to 0.4 stable |
| 22:34 |
Jakssoul |
I have found a project working on it, but not a release. |
| 22:35 |
kaeza |
Jakssoul, tjbarber: the mac build is really old IIRC |
| 22:35 |
sapier1 |
that's because celeron didn't want c++ mobs anymore |
| 22:35 |
tjbarber |
I found a dev release for like 0.4 |
| 22:35 |
aldobr |
sapier1 if this is that slow |
| 22:35 |
sapier1 |
mobf would be a c++ api |
| 22:35 |
tjbarber |
so will I need to compile it? |
| 22:35 |
|
Dogzilla131 joined #minetest |
| 22:35 |
aldobr |
then there are problems with current data structures |
| 22:35 |
kaeza |
tjbarber: that's your best bet for now |
| 22:35 |
aldobr |
i dont know minetest internals |
| 22:35 |
aldobr |
so... |
| 22:35 |
Jakssoul |
Yup, newest one I found is also .04 |
| 22:35 |
Jakssoul |
0.4* |
| 22:36 |
aldobr |
how are nodes stored internally ? |
| 22:36 |
kaeza |
Jakssoul, tjbarber: 0.4 is really old :P we are at 0.4.4 now |
| 22:36 |
sapier1 |
aldobr we're not talking about 100 nodes ... we're talking about thousands of nodes |
| 22:36 |
tjbarber |
yep |
| 22:36 |
VanessaE |
zzz |
| 22:36 |
Jakssoul |
Hellllooo VanessaE. |
| 22:36 |
aldobr |
i believe |
| 22:36 |
VanessaE |
hi |
| 22:36 |
sapier1 |
mobf already is what you want it to be @john_minetest |
| 22:36 |
Jakssoul |
Anyone know why Minetest.net is down? |
| 22:37 |
tjbarber |
I mean I should be able to compile it ok... I guess I'll just have to play with it |
| 22:37 |
aldobr |
work should be concentrated in map handling/generation |
| 22:37 |
aldobr |
to get something faster |
| 22:37 |
aldobr |
then tackle complex mobs |
| 22:37 |
VanessaE |
Jakssoul: dunno, at least c55 already knows about it anyway |
| 22:37 |
Jakssoul |
Well I think that's obvious. Does he maintain the site himself? |
| 22:38 |
sapier1 |
yes of course I needed them to test it's functions |
| 22:38 |
NakedFury |
aldobr: yes in steps. fix/edit/rework/etc map then tackle the next goal or objective |
| 22:38 |
aldobr |
is it a simple array ? |
| 22:38 |
aldobr |
with x,y,z coords ? |
| 22:39 |
sapier1 |
not quite it's somehow chunk based as server couldn't handle whole world in memory if it'd be loaded at once |
| 22:39 |
aldobr |
yes i know |
| 22:39 |
aldobr |
but the chunks |
| 22:39 |
aldobr |
are arrays ? |
| 22:39 |
aldobr |
indexed by x,y,z ? |
| 22:40 |
orbitaldecay |
hopefully the chunks are in a tree of some sort |
| 22:40 |
sapier1 |
I don't exactly know I didn't bother with c++ code for some time as noone seemd to accept improovements |
| 22:40 |
aldobr |
k |
| 22:40 |
aldobr |
i will do the following |
| 22:41 |
NakedFury |
they will be accepted sapier |
| 22:41 |
aldobr |
i will search for the correct data structure for storing a "map" |
| 22:41 |
aldobr |
or is anybody else workin on the map ? |
| 22:41 |
NakedFury |
aldobr the user hmmmmm is working on revamping the mapgeneration completely |
| 22:41 |
aldobr |
ok |
| 22:41 |
aldobr |
so i rest my case :P |
| 22:42 |
sapier1 |
@nakedfury ...theoreticaly they are ... practicaly sometimes they are sometimes not |
| 22:43 |
RealBadAngel |
not only him |
| 22:43 |
aldobr |
having multiple representations of the map at the same time |
| 22:43 |
RealBadAngel |
https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest |
| 22:43 |
moltenbot |
RealBadAngel's link: kwolekr/minetest ? GitHub |
| 22:43 |
aldobr |
can improve times |
| 22:43 |
aldobr |
but at the price of more memmory |
| 22:43 |
RealBadAngel |
heres another mapgen, with biomes support |
| 22:43 |
aldobr |
like a x,y,z array of nodes for random access |
| 22:43 |
aldobr |
plus a tree representation |
| 22:43 |
sapier1 |
btw mobf is already shaped like c++ code so it'd be no big deal to translate |
| 22:44 |
|
kaeza1 joined #minetest |
| 22:44 |
aldobr |
i remember that omnistudent was working in a project |
| 22:44 |
aldobr |
to make bots that run distributed |
| 22:44 |
aldobr |
they run outside server |
| 22:44 |
aldobr |
as if they were players |
| 22:44 |
hmmmm |
guys |
| 22:45 |
Jakssoul |
Hmmm? |
| 22:45 |
aldobr |
this opens a whole lot of possibilities |
| 22:45 |
hmmmm |
come to think about it, hold off on pasting my repository before i fix it |
| 22:45 |
sapier1 |
this is a game .. we can't use compute clusters |
| 22:45 |
hmmmm |
it crashes crap instantly because i still haven't committed the Y->Z swap |
| 22:45 |
aldobr |
sapier1 well, we can |
| 22:46 |
sapier1 |
if you want someone to play this game you can't |
| 22:46 |
aldobr |
well |
| 22:46 |
aldobr |
two computers is already distributed computing |
| 22:47 |
aldobr |
three etc |
| 22:47 |
aldobr |
ok |
| 22:47 |
hmmmm |
distributed computing.... |
| 22:47 |
aldobr |
i understand your argument |
| 22:47 |
hmmmm |
maybe for your fork of minetest, or your own minecraft clone |
| 22:47 |
aldobr |
price |
| 22:47 |
hmmmm |
but not in this project, sorry |
| 22:47 |
aldobr |
i am not working on it |
| 22:47 |
aldobr |
its omnistudent work |
| 22:47 |
hmmmm |
well we have enough idea guys |
| 22:47 |
hmmmm |
we need coding guys |
| 22:47 |
aldobr |
i can code |
| 22:48 |
aldobr |
but will take some time to get familiarized with minetest source |
| 22:48 |
hmmmm |
if you want minetest to be able to do this, then perhaps you ought to code it |
| 22:48 |
sapier1 |
still you'd need to write your own client to create a mob ... running one client each mob ... thus pushing load to server as if 100+ players would be online |
| 22:48 |
hmmmm |
(read: put your code where your mouth is) |
| 22:48 |
aldobr |
sapier1 |
| 22:48 |
aldobr |
i dont know how he plans to solve that |
| 22:49 |
aldobr |
you are getting too defensive without reason to |
| 22:49 |
aldobr |
i see no reason |
| 22:49 |
sapier1 |
we are talking about a solution with distributed mobs am i right? |
| 22:49 |
aldobr |
no |
| 22:49 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: we are not "defensive" |
| 22:49 |
aldobr |
we are talking to a solution for mobs |
| 22:49 |
aldobr |
whatever it takes |
| 22:50 |
aldobr |
*talking about |
| 22:50 |
kaeza1 |
if you can get that working right, without a huge CPU load |
| 22:50 |
aldobr |
distributed or local |
| 22:50 |
kaeza1 |
then open a pull request |
| 22:50 |
aldobr |
neural network, genetic, machine learning |
| 22:50 |
aldobr |
whatever |
| 22:50 |
kaeza1 |
and maybe someone will find your changes useful |
| 22:51 |
aldobr |
kaeza1 i want to work on the map thing first |
| 22:51 |
aldobr |
cause most people are complaining about the map being too slow |
| 22:51 |
aldobr |
so this is where to start |
| 22:51 |
sapier1 |
aldobr I've gotten lots of good ideas since I started mobf ... many are great ... I even thought about the same way you proposed ... but for lots of reasons I've not done this by now ... performance is only the most obvious one |
| 22:51 |
aldobr |
so what are you planning to do ? |
| 22:52 |
hmmmm |
if you want to implement a smart AI for mobs, I would take a look at STRIPS planning system |
| 22:52 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: also distributed computing as you say, may not be the case |
| 22:52 |
aldobr |
kaeza1 going to clouds can work miracles |
| 22:52 |
aldobr |
but |
| 22:52 |
kaeza1 |
you must also see that on singleplayer when the only one is you |
| 22:52 |
aldobr |
its not cheap for a game |
| 22:53 |
sapier1 |
mobf is implemented in a way you easyly can replace it's movement gen ... if there is a way to use neuronal networks to achiev this target this would be the first step in my opinion |
| 22:53 |
kaeza1 |
It's better to optimize the current algorithm than to require other computers to do the job for you |
| 22:54 |
aldobr |
hmmmm your agressive remark only got one result, i am more inclined now to not help instead of helping (wich was my original intention) |
| 22:54 |
sapier1 |
sorry i didn't want to sound agressive |
| 22:54 |
sapier1 |
i just want a step by step solution |
| 22:55 |
|
john_minetest left #minetest |
| 22:55 |
aldobr |
sapier1 theres no step by step solution without discussion |
| 22:55 |
hmmmm |
hey, that's fine, it's a free country |
| 22:55 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: you must not take everyone that says your idea is bad as aggresive |
| 22:55 |
hmmmm |
you can do anything |
| 22:55 |
aldobr |
kaeza1 the remark WAS agressive |
| 22:56 |
sapier1 |
I'm not even saying "it's bad" I'm just not conviced it can be done |
| 22:56 |
aldobr |
actually, minetest community has a lot of agressivenes |
| 22:56 |
aldobr |
you can see that from the ammount of coders leaving the community |
| 22:56 |
kaeza1 |
yeah, sorry, I suck a bit at english |
| 22:56 |
aldobr |
check forum |
| 22:56 |
hmmmm |
well come on, for the past two days you've been just blabbing on about big ideas that'll never actually get implemented |
| 22:56 |
kaeza1 |
sapier1: that's what I meant, sorry |
| 22:56 |
aldobr |
hmmmm how do you know ? |
| 22:56 |
aldobr |
you made one thing |
| 22:56 |
hmmmm |
i don't know, it's just a hunch |
| 22:56 |
aldobr |
now they SURE wont |
| 22:57 |
sdzen |
a very good one |
| 22:57 |
hmmmm |
if you'd like to prove me wrong... |
| 22:57 |
|
NakedFury joined #minetest |
| 22:57 |
aldobr |
too much MACHO thing here |
| 22:57 |
aldobr |
looks like i will join the leaving coders, without even coding anything but some mods |
| 22:57 |
hmmmm |
have fun |
| 22:57 |
sapier1 |
I understand what aldobr means but probably we should take into consideration that next to no one of us is english native speaker so probably some sentences can easyly be misinterpreted |
| 22:58 |
hmmmm |
we didn't lose anything |
| 22:58 |
aldobr |
YES! |
| 22:58 |
hmmmm |
nah, he knew what i was saying perfectly... |
| 22:58 |
aldobr |
thats exactly the attitude a am talking about |
| 22:58 |
aldobr |
<hmmmm> we didn't lose anything |
| 22:58 |
aldobr |
that phrase is perfect to state the attitude i am talking about |
| 22:58 |
hmmmm |
aldobr: should we be begging you for your help instead? |
| 22:58 |
aldobr |
hmmmm is that a dichotomy ? |
| 22:58 |
sapier1 |
plz lets stick back to the problem ;-) |
| 22:58 |
aldobr |
beg or reject outright ? |
| 22:59 |
VanessaE |
aldobr: perhaps you should focus on smaller projects first? |
| 22:59 |
aldobr |
cant you do something in between ? |
| 22:59 |
hmmmm |
no, but it seems like you want instantaneous praise |
| 22:59 |
aldobr |
praise ? |
| 22:59 |
VanessaE |
distributed computing for a game that doesn't even have a centralized server system? |
| 22:59 |
aldobr |
pls show me where i asked for praise ? |
| 22:59 |
hmmmm |
i said it seems like it |
| 22:59 |
aldobr |
a single phrase, pls |
| 22:59 |
aldobr |
it seems |
| 22:59 |
aldobr |
because thats a projection ? |
| 22:59 |
hmmmm |
christ.... |
| 22:59 |
hmmmm |
alright, i'm out. |
| 22:59 |
aldobr |
thanks, we are not losing anything ? |
| 23:00 |
aldobr |
think some opensource problems suffer from the same problems continually |
| 23:00 |
sapier1 |
aldobr calm down this is a community project sometimes you have to live with your proposals not beeing accepted even if they are better ;-) |
| 23:00 |
aldobr |
i am calm guy |
| 23:00 |
aldobr |
ive seen that attitude before |
| 23:00 |
sapier1 |
se mobf ... it great doing anythin but still doesn't have any chance to be added to master :) |
| 23:00 |
aldobr |
sapier1 i accept my proposal not being accepted |
| 23:00 |
aldobr |
its perfectly ok |
| 23:01 |
aldobr |
what i dont accept is that attitude |
| 23:01 |
celeron55 |
lol |
| 23:01 |
hmmmm |
well if you don't like it you can just fork it |
| 23:01 |
aldobr |
you take any proposal not as a proposal but as a kind of |
| 23:01 |
aldobr |
cant remember the word |
| 23:01 |
aldobr |
as if as i was demanding it |
| 23:01 |
RealBadAngel |
cant you guys just stop it? :) |
| 23:01 |
RealBadAngel |
cmon, its xmas |
| 23:02 |
aldobr |
people are too defensive |
| 23:02 |
celeron55 |
the world is full of ideas, but the world is missing people who actually can do and finish stuff |
| 23:02 |
aldobr |
i can do |
| 23:02 |
aldobr |
but this is not an ego thing |
| 23:02 |
sapier1 |
aldobr we're discussing your proposal for hours now we wouldn't do this if it'd not be an interesting aproach |
| 23:02 |
aldobr |
its hard to express myself not in my native language |
| 23:02 |
hmmmm |
we get what you mean perfectly; trust me |
| 23:03 |
STHGOM |
where are you from? |
| 23:03 |
aldobr |
brazil |
| 23:03 |
sapier1 |
I guss implementing your proposal in a way you can really tell if it's working or not is about half a year of development (part time of course) |
| 23:03 |
kaeza1 |
merry xmas celeron55 |
| 23:03 |
STHGOM |
what is your native language? |
| 23:03 |
aldobr |
portuguese |
| 23:03 |
STHGOM |
ok |
| 23:03 |
STHGOM |
ola! |
| 23:03 |
aldobr |
back to the topic |
| 23:03 |
STHGOM |
(i only know a little) |
| 23:04 |
STHGOM |
ok |
| 23:04 |
aldobr |
i believe i should focus myself into implementing the delta engine i was talking about |
| 23:04 |
sapier1 |
I'm already back at topic ;-) @aldobr |
| 23:04 |
Jeija |
http://www.mesecons.net/addserver.html << This is where you can add your server to my multiplayer server list. At the moment it is added straight away, I'm working on the proposals from the pull request. |
| 23:04 |
moltenbot |
Jeija's link: Minetest Serverlist - Add Server |
| 23:04 |
aldobr |
but its quite hard to jump into a source code that i never touched before |
| 23:04 |
aldobr |
without directions |
| 23:04 |
hmmmm |
aldobr, start reading the wiki |
| 23:04 |
celeron55 |
the wiki... that is down 8) |
| 23:04 |
hmmmm |
well =/ |
| 23:05 |
aldobr |
hmmmm i've already done a mod to get acquited of the game |
| 23:05 |
sapier1 |
anotherones code is always hard to read until you understand the way he was thinking |
| 23:05 |
aldobr |
now i want to jump into the c++ |
| 23:05 |
aldobr |
actually |
| 23:05 |
aldobr |
i am not sure if i want |
| 23:05 |
aldobr |
<hmmmm> we didn't lose anything |
| 23:05 |
hmmmm |
oh speaking of which |
| 23:05 |
hmmmm |
i need to add documentation on the new stuff on the wiki |
| 23:06 |
hmmmm |
who is in charge of that, xyz? |
| 23:06 |
aldobr |
maybe thats why there are so much leaving coders at the forum... |
| 23:06 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: in charge of minetest.net? |
| 23:06 |
VanessaE |
aldobr: there are a dozen bugs that need fixed and no one is able, or has the time, inclination, or skills to fix - why not just start there? |
| 23:06 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 23:06 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: i am (except for api.minetest.net) |
| 23:06 |
sapier1 |
if you start coding for minetest you'll have to get used to minetests coding style ... which is (at least to me) somehow strange ... sorry to all developers its just my personal oppinion |
| 23:06 |
celeron55 |
and i can't do anything once again |
| 23:06 |
hmmmm |
welp |
| 23:06 |
hmmmm |
no hurry |
| 23:06 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: I wish I knew what I were doing, I'd be more than happy to host the forums et.al on my web space |
| 23:07 |
hmmmm |
sapier1, what do you find strange about it in particular? |
| 23:07 |
hmmmm |
the syntax, style of code flow, the code itself? |
| 23:07 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: thexyz can take the site any time... but i'm kind of hesistant to do that, because then practically everythin would be hosted by thexyz |
| 23:08 |
sapier1 |
it's ahrd to explain the way the code is written doesn't quite match my thinking patterns |
| 23:08 |
hmmmm |
i use the Linux Kernel coding style (except for switch statements, i indent the cases) |
| 23:08 |
VanessaE |
I understand - you don't want to put it all in one person's hands who may not always be arounf. |
| 23:08 |
VanessaE |
around* |
| 23:09 |
celeron55 |
it's good to spread around responsibilities and stuff like that |
| 23:09 |
VanessaE |
yup |
| 23:09 |
VanessaE |
(and spread the blame? ;-) ) |
| 23:10 |
celeron55 |
i need to figure out what's causing these complete lock-ups of the vps though |
| 23:10 |
celeron55 |
this isn't really too acceptable |
| 23:12 |
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| 23:12 |
aldobr |
sapier1 i can write code, just like when i asked pilzadam for a new machine in his mod and he said he wont do, i've done, even without never touching lua |
| 23:12 |
jeffrash_nexus |
Hi guys. Is there an mine test android client? |
| 23:13 |
hmmmm |
lol^ |
| 23:13 |
hmmmm |
actually that's not too hard |
| 23:13 |
hmmmm |
there's irrlicht for android |
| 23:14 |
jeffrash_nexus |
What's irrlicht? |
| 23:14 |
hmmmm |
the 3d engine we use |
| 23:15 |
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| 23:15 |
sapier1 |
@aldobr I understand you I've been in same situation sometimes, I even like the idea of neuronal networks for ai, I just see how much work needs to be done to get this even next to working |
| 23:16 |
jeffrash_nexus |
I see. |
| 23:16 |
aldobr |
sapier1 i believe now that NN's are not the best solution |
| 23:16 |
aldobr |
because the problem can be solved by simpler means |
| 23:16 |
aldobr |
but i dont see a problem in discussing it |
| 23:16 |
sapier1 |
you can do this completely on your own reinventing the wheel in some places .. or use evolutionary way by adding neuronal features step by step to already existing code |
| 23:16 |
aldobr |
to exaustion |
| 23:16 |
aldobr |
thats how things improve |
| 23:16 |
aldobr |
discussing, without taking it personally |
| 23:16 |
celeron55 |
site's up |
| 23:17 |
aldobr |
without hidden weapons |
| 23:17 |
STHGOM |
OldCoder : are you on? |
| 23:17 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: no it ain't :-) |
| 23:17 |
OldCoder |
Hi |
| 23:17 |
sapier1 |
I'm not a friend of hiding something so believe me if I say I'm really considering it I do |
| 23:17 |
OldCoder |
STHGOM, Yes |
| 23:17 |
VanessaE |
greetz, OldCoder |
| 23:18 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, Hi! |
| 23:18 |
STHGOM |
may i PM you 1 more time? |
| 23:18 |
OldCoder |
Of course |
| 23:18 |
aldobr |
sapier1 i am not directing this to you specifically |
| 23:18 |
OldCoder |
Go ahead |
| 23:19 |
sapier1 |
ok so plz stick back to the problem |
| 23:19 |
aldobr |
sapier1 |
| 23:20 |
aldobr |
i believe the first thing for a mob |
| 23:20 |
sapier1 |
in my opinion first step would be creating a movement generator using a neuronal network to make a mob stay on lets say "grass" |
| 23:20 |
aldobr |
will be path finding |
| 23:20 |
sapier1 |
that'd be even to complex for a first step |
| 23:20 |
aldobr |
i was brainwashing about mob development before |
| 23:20 |
aldobr |
i see a problem with path finding |
| 23:20 |
VanessaE |
brainstormg. |
| 23:20 |
VanessaE |
brainstorming* |
| 23:21 |
aldobr |
yeah brainstorming |
| 23:21 |
aldobr |
what happens if the mod wants to move from chunk A to chunk B |
| 23:21 |
RealBadAngel |
and got brainwashed then ;) |
| 23:21 |
sapier1 |
I do too but it's even difficult to ensure a mob stays on grass ;-) |
| 23:21 |
VanessaE |
RealBadAngel: you're already brainwashed ;) |
| 23:21 |
aldobr |
and there are not generated chunks in between ? |
| 23:21 |
RealBadAngel |
hehe |
| 23:21 |
aldobr |
or |
| 23:21 |
aldobr |
if the mob requests a path |
| 23:22 |
aldobr |
and someone willfully or not |
| 23:22 |
aldobr |
changes something in the path |
| 23:22 |
sapier1 |
plz ppl why do you switch to complex problems without having solved simple ones |
| 23:22 |
VanessaE |
the path has to be re-computed every time the MOB moves from one node to another |
| 23:22 |
aldobr |
i believe its a fundamental primitive that should be done one way or the other |
| 23:23 |
aldobr |
i believe this will be pretty costly |
| 23:23 |
sapier1 |
vanessaE it's even more compley as a mob's collision box is larger than a node therefore it may enter many nodes at once |
| 23:23 |
VanessaE |
sapier1: just speaking generally. |
| 23:23 |
aldobr |
sapier1 : keeping mob in grass -> if next node where i want to move to is not grass, turn around |
| 23:24 |
sapier1 |
atm follow movement generator recalculates movement a soon as predicted time to next node has elapsed |
| 23:24 |
sapier1 |
aldobr and what do you do if since last checking you've moved more than one node? |
| 23:24 |
aldobr |
only move one node at a time ? |
| 23:25 |
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| 23:25 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: it works now.. |
| 23:25 |
sapier1 |
you have to stick with the cpu time you get |
| 23:25 |
aldobr |
is some time outside grass acceptable ? |
| 23:25 |
sapier1 |
depends on what you're uppon |
| 23:26 |
aldobr |
well |
| 23:26 |
aldobr |
with a pathfinder |
| 23:26 |
aldobr |
you can draw the full path before moving |
| 23:26 |
aldobr |
just make everything that is not grass to be too costly |
| 23:26 |
sapier1 |
no you can't as your path may change in minetest while you're moving |
| 23:27 |
aldobr |
yes thats why i asked what to do |
| 23:27 |
sapier1 |
you need to check by time if your path is still valid |
| 23:28 |
aldobr |
im out of the mood to think about such complex issues |
| 23:28 |
aldobr |
sorry |
| 23:28 |
aldobr |
i want to help |
| 23:28 |
aldobr |
but |
| 23:28 |
hmmmm |
it's a doggy dog world out there... |
| 23:28 |
hmmmm |
people like you are diamond dozen. |
| 23:28 |
hmmmm |
we ought to take what you say with a grain assault. |
| 23:28 |
VanessaE |
*groan* |
| 23:29 |
sapier1 |
@aldobr I'm sorry I just can't make it less complex |
| 23:29 |
hmmmm |
vanessa, don't take it for granite. |
| 23:29 |
aldobr |
i believe planning before coding |
| 23:30 |
aldobr |
i usually think the same thing over and over before writting a single line of code |
| 23:30 |
mrdragons |
Measure twice, cut once |
| 23:30 |
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| 23:30 |
VanessaE |
I plan out the most coarse chunks of a project, but then I kinda muddle way through it from start to finish after that. |
| 23:31 |
RealBadAngel |
best way to start is to write a function definition ;) at least you have to define whats needed by it :) |
| 23:32 |
hmmmm |
it's easy to miss really important details if you don't do any code at all |
| 23:32 |
VanessaE |
RealBadAngel: and then you decide "you know, this function can easily do X, so let me add parameter Y to the function call...) |
| 23:32 |
VanessaE |
" |
| 23:32 |
hmmmm |
the sort of details where you'll get stuck hard |
| 23:33 |
aldobr |
i've written a whole language interpreter that way |
| 23:33 |
aldobr |
jordan4 made a path finder for his mob |
| 23:33 |
aldobr |
ops |
| 23:33 |
sapier1 |
plz don't write a new language there are already enough ;-) |
| 23:33 |
aldobr |
sorry wrong past |
| 23:33 |
aldobr |
http://code.google.com/p/opentik/ |
| 23:33 |
moltenbot |
aldobr's link: |
| 23:34 |
aldobr |
its a formalization of mikrotik language |
| 23:34 |
aldobr |
in a proper parser |
| 23:34 |
aldobr |
and virtual machine |
| 23:34 |
aldobr |
i was trying to make a mikrotik clone |
| 23:34 |
aldobr |
then figured theres no market for this |
| 23:34 |
hmmmm |
pascal... |
| 23:34 |
hmmmm |
for shame. |
| 23:34 |
aldobr |
objectpascal |
| 23:34 |
hmmmm |
delphi |
| 23:34 |
aldobr |
freepascal |
| 23:34 |
aldobr |
#fpc |
| 23:34 |
RealBadAngel |
btw, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vaUXHeC5T8 |
| 23:34 |
moltenbot |
RealBadAngel's link: Evolving neural networks - fish learning to gather food - YouTube |
| 23:35 |
aldobr |
its like a breed between pascal and java |
| 23:35 |
aldobr |
i've done the whole project in my mind |
| 23:35 |
aldobr |
before writing a single line of code |
| 23:35 |
aldobr |
at least the core interpreter |
| 23:35 |
kaeza1 |
how about we make a Lua mod that calls the Python interpreter that calls the XML parser to load path information from an XML file? (xzzibit.jpg) |
| 23:35 |
kaeza1 |
(expecting flame war) |
| 23:35 |
hmmmm |
inception |
| 23:35 |
jin_xi |
needs moar javascript |
| 23:35 |
aldobr |
kaeza1 you need to hold some meetings |
| 23:36 |
aldobr |
with the managing personell |
| 23:36 |
aldobr |
so they will write the specification of the code |
| 23:36 |
VanessaE |
kaeza1: where the XML describes a set of LOGO commands which, when executes, slowly draw out the text for the actual path in move-based RPG style? :-) |
| 23:36 |
VanessaE |
executed* |
| 23:36 |
aldobr |
they will start with a simple idea |
| 23:37 |
aldobr |
and make it bullet proof, amphibious etc |
| 23:37 |
aldobr |
then pass to programmers (us) |
| 23:37 |
aldobr |
to make it happen |
| 23:37 |
aldobr |
(how software writting usually happens in brazil) |
| 23:37 |
NakedFury |
under whip treatment |
| 23:38 |
kaeza1 |
aldobr: I will have to decline your offer |
| 23:38 |
RealBadAngel |
why just us programmers? |
| 23:38 |
kaeza1 |
I have too much headaches right now with all my projects |
| 23:38 |
RealBadAngel |
there are many more countries having decent programmers |
| 23:41 |
hmmmm |
he used it in the sense of the 1st person accusitive case |
| 23:41 |
hmmmm |
not the united states |
| 23:41 |
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| 23:55 |
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| 23:56 |
kaeza |
wb aldobr |
| 23:57 |
aldobr |
hi |
| 23:59 |
STHGOM |
HI |
