Time Nick Message 00:01 marktraceur iqualfragile: You certainly seemed to have approximately the intelligence of a Windows user, so it was very difficult for us to tell. 00:01 iqualfragile thanks for the praise of my acting talent 00:03 VanessaE Ah, I figured it out! 00:05 mauvebic i knew that lol 00:05 mauvebic the minute you praised windows i told mark you were trolling him :p 00:06 iqualfragile yeah, you said something about that 00:06 markveidemanis Everyone go on the Zegathon server 00:06 mauvebic well who in their right mind would praise windows anyways lolo 00:06 iqualfragile markveidemanis: shure as soon as you give us the ip and jeijas patch for the server-lists gets merged in 00:07 mauvebic it can get you committed in some countries :-/ 00:07 iqualfragile for example antarctika? 00:07 markveidemanis minetest.org:30015 00:09 noodric is it really necessary to Create a weperms.txt in the bin folder to use the worldedit mod 00:10 mauvebic you can hardcode 00:10 mauvebic uhm, ask sfan or uberi how to 00:12 noodric where is the "bin" folder on linux? 00:12 noodric worldedit should be part of minetest core! 00:12 marktraceur noodric: Did you compile the game or install it somehow? 00:12 noodric ubuntu c55 pps 00:12 noodric ppa 00:13 marktraceur I have never used that. 00:13 noodric minetestc55 00:13 marktraceur I'm looking 00:14 marktraceur noodric: Looks like /usr/bin 00:15 noodric i put a config file in usr/bin? sounds hacky 00:15 mauvebic 3 asteroids complete http://www.zimg.eu/i/2697872052 00:16 noodric i just updated from 0.3 to 0.44 - noticing the fly mode doesn't let you fly through walls nomore? 00:16 iqualfragile noodric: either get the code from github and compile it yourself 00:17 noodric and the e key isn't "down" when flying 00:17 iqualfragile or, if it was compiled whith -DRUN_IN_PLACE=0 which i guess it was then you should have a ~/.minetest/ folder 00:17 noodric yeah. i have that folder 00:18 marktraceur noodric: I don't know if that will be where files are loaded, though.... 00:18 noodric i know... tried that 00:18 noodric anyway 00:19 noodric how does the engine work? how hard would it be to import a DEM as a map? 00:19 noodric Digital Elevation Model 00:19 noodric i guess the map is stored in sqlite 00:19 iqualfragile not _that_ hard but someone would need to write a converter for that thing 00:20 OldCoder iqualfragile, Should be practical. thexyz has export for other formats. 00:22 noodric how about integration with Interactive Fiction formats for a story mode? 00:24 OldCoder noodric, Interesting 00:26 noodric shortcut. might be awesome. 00:26 noodric if you could define a region as a room. 00:27 noodric anyway what you guys are doing is awesome. thanks. 00:36 noodric http://code.google.com/p/garglk/source 00:36 moltenbot noodric's link: Source Checkout - 00:36 VanessaE there. 00:36 VanessaE https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/81 00:37 VanessaE that fixes Mese once and for all. 00:37 VanessaE in 25 years when no one will care about the old black and yellow mese thing, then c55 can finally delete it. 00:37 VanessaE :) 00:38 noodric using interactive fiction as a story engine would be as retro as using the pixellated blocks. Having to type sentences to interact. 00:39 noodric and from an educational perspective, worldedit should be part of core. 00:42 VanessaE ok, screw that. forget that last pull request,. 00:42 * VanessaE sighs heavily. 00:45 OldCoder noodric, It is a thought 00:46 noodric well I'm nobody but that's my input. Copy and past and multiblock selection in edit mode, the true creative mode, like sauerbraten. 00:46 noodric it is a sandbox game. 00:47 noodric i guess i better just learn to make mods. 00:48 noodric a cool block would be one that you could focus on and it is a web browser. 00:48 noodric so you can go to minetest wiki IN GAME 00:49 noodric If someone can do all three of those things I would pay them. 00:49 noodric i mean 4 00:51 noodric story mode based on tads3, browser block, file manager block, worldedit, DEM import. 5, Five things! 00:51 noodric and NES soundtrack! 00:51 sdzen 8 bit chiptune madness? 00:51 noodric ya 00:51 sdzen I agree Noodric! 00:52 noodric then unleash the thing. 00:53 noodric there should be a block that is a microscopic minecraft instance. 00:53 noodric $15 per block 00:54 noodric or a block that is a music block. you compose 8bit tunes in that block 00:54 noodric fruityloops graphical style music making 00:56 noodric and you could easily do scale the same way spore does it. 00:57 noodric each block could be another world. 00:57 noodric and with these games, why are there no cellular automata? 00:57 noodric you should make a brick that follows the rules of some cellular automata in 2 or 3d. 00:57 noodric that would kick ass. 00:58 noodric you could unleash a flasher or a bread loaf. watch it sail across the sky. 00:58 noodric intelligent blocks. 00:58 noodric china syndome block 00:58 noodric syndrom 00:59 noodric built in ventrillo would also be good. webcam faces. 01:01 noodric i like the forest fires in this new version. 01:01 sdzen i think they should spread quicker 01:01 sdzen it takes too long now 01:02 sdzen its almost as lame as minecrafts fires now 01:03 noodric we need tectonics and airmasses 01:03 noodric and groundwater 01:03 sdzen that would be cool mr idea guy 01:04 noodric 7 things then 01:06 noodric well what's the new direction then? 01:07 iqualfragile forget - browser-block, filemanagerblock 01:07 iqualfragile but celular automata are easy 01:07 VanessaE https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82 01:08 VanessaE THERE! Now everyone can stop bitching about the change. 01:08 noodric you should be able to define a CA block graphically, based on the nearest neighbors. 01:09 noodric 8. and a few ways to make decisions about the next timeblock 01:09 noodric in the game is blocktime also pixellated? 01:20 Exio http://cadoth.net/~exio4/mt/make.gcc.log 01:20 LunaVorax Here you go VanessaE 01:20 Exio (or http://cadoth.net/~exio4/mt/make.log), any ideas? 01:20 Exio only 'cmake .' + 'make' 01:20 Exio it compiled a bit ago 01:20 VanessaE there we go, much better. 01:20 Exio like 4~ days 01:20 VanessaE hi LunaVorax :-) 01:21 Exio hi btw 01:21 VanessaE Exio: I haven't the foggiest clue :-) 01:21 Exio haha 01:23 iqualfragile Exio: yeah, repull, retry, that should have been fixed 2-3 days ago 01:23 Exio haha 01:23 Exio Already up-to-date. 01:29 Exio recloning it 01:35 noobile autonomous block? 01:35 Exio iqualfragile: i still have the problem 01:35 Exio any ideas? 01:35 Exio git clone http://github.com/celeron55/minetest;cd minetest;cmake .;make == that 01:38 iqualfragile nah, i run out of ideas… 01:39 Exio hm, k 01:39 Exio i will play xonotic then :P 01:40 iqualfragile pff, get a compiled version from minetest.net/download 01:40 Exio nah 01:57 iqualfragile yeah, well, good night 02:20 VanessaE zzz 02:38 OldCoder ruskie, wb 02:38 OldCoder ruskie, You awake? 02:42 Jakssoul 'Ello, everyone. 02:42 OldCoder Jakssoul, Hi 02:43 Jakssoul OldCoder, how's your day been? 02:43 OldCoder Good 02:43 OldCoder Productive 02:43 OldCoder I will have blog stuff to post tonight 02:43 OldCoder Quiet in IRC 02:43 OldCoder People seem happy 02:43 OldCoder day++ 02:44 Jakssoul I told a die hard Christian that "God" isn't real today. Made my day! :D (I'm terrible.) 02:44 VanessaE heh 02:45 Jakssoul I'm probably more amused by it than I should be. 02:45 VanessaE Jakssoul: you wanna really fuck with them? tell them the devil doesn't exist. 02:45 Jakssoul Why's that? 02:45 VanessaE they seem to take that worse than claims of G*d's non-existence :-) 02:45 Jakssoul The second I said it, I was threatened with Brimstone. Not hell, just Brimstone. 02:45 Jakssoul I was like, "Uhmmm?" 02:46 VanessaE OldCoder: update coming in about 7 minutes, give or take. 02:46 VanessaE at your leisure. 02:46 Jakssoul Brimstone and Limestone, actually. This woman thinks god talks to her. Like, Skypes her and stuff. 02:46 Jakssoul Hahahaa. (Not literally Skype, but you get the point I hope.) 02:46 OldCoder VanessaE, fine 02:46 VanessaE Jakssoul: *shrug* I don't know what gets the fundies so fired up. :-/ 02:47 OldCoder Jakssoul, VanessaE It is about people and not faith. I have met people of faith who have changed my feelings. I now judge individuals based on what they do. 02:47 Jakssoul They believe they are just and right. Any human that believes they are in the right is a dangerous force. 02:47 OldCoder Yes 02:47 OldCoder But the line is... self righteous 02:47 OldCoder There are those who are humble 02:47 OldCoder I have come to respect them 02:48 Jakssoul Agnostics, Atheists, Spiritualists, Religious, anyone. Scary scary. 02:48 Jakssoul Yes. I agree OldCoder. 02:48 OldCoder Yes 02:48 VanessaE OldCoder: the problem is when a believer, one way or the other, feels the need to force their opinions on you even after you've clearly indicated yours. 02:49 OldCoder I have just written a Christmas Eve essay for a Fundamentalist friend. It will be blogged. He tries to help people. Others try to... crush. 02:49 OldCoder Yes 02:49 OldCoder There are Pharisees 02:49 * OldCoder wants nothing to do with those 02:49 Jakssoul Yeah. I'm in foster care (I'm about to be turning 18 on New Years Eve, just so you guys know), and my foster Mother was the one I told this to. 02:49 VanessaE Jakssoul: ouch. 02:49 OldCoder How did she react? 02:49 Jakssoul Brimstone and Limestone. 02:50 VanessaE not positively, by the sound of it 02:50 OldCoder Jakssoul, and were you born with the year then? 02:50 VanessaE limestone though? 02:50 Jakssoul Hahahaaahaha. She's been forcing her religion on me for weeks. 02:50 OldCoder You spoke up 02:50 * OldCoder imagines the scene 02:50 OldCoder Heh 02:50 Jakssoul Yeahhh. She told me I was shameful for not willing to go home to an abusive step father. 02:50 Jakssoul God would fix things if I just went home. 02:50 OldCoder Oh boy 02:50 Jakssoul Then.. well.. "God's not real." *Walks away*. 02:51 * OldCoder chuckles 02:51 Jakssoul *Hears in background* LIMESTONE AND BRIMSTONE AWAIT YEEE BOY! 02:51 VanessaE see, now if this weren't your mom, it would be the part where you also say how you're gay or you're gonna marry a person of color, etc. 02:51 OldCoder Limestone 02:51 OldCoder Limestone? 02:51 Jakssoul Yes. Limestone. 02:51 VanessaE yeah, I don't get the limestone bit. can you elaborate 02:51 VanessaE ? 02:51 OldCoder That is for buildings isn't it? 02:51 Jakssoul I don't know. She's not well educated on her religion. 02:51 Jakssoul Yes it is, foundation. 02:51 OldCoder Thought so. Thank her for the construction material. 02:52 VanessaE lol 02:52 Jakssoul Hahahahahaha! Wonderful. 02:52 OldCoder Jakssoul, I was raised by such people 02:52 VanessaE /giveme mom:limestone_block 999 02:52 OldCoder It did not go well 02:52 OldCoder Heh 02:52 VanessaE ok, I'm bad. 02:52 Jakssoul That was perfection. 02:52 VanessaE /giveme mom:brimstone_block 666 02:52 VanessaE ;) 02:52 Jakssoul I laughed SO HARD. But I apologize, OldCoder. It's never good. 02:52 OldCoder Yep 02:52 Jakssoul 666? It just keeps getting better. 02:52 Jakssoul ;) 02:52 OldCoder Hey, Kenneth... BTW Merry Christmas :P 02:53 * OldCoder chuckles again 02:53 OldCoder It's a pretty good essay that's going up 02:53 OldCoder We should have churches in MT. Cathedrals and Bazaars. 02:53 Jakssoul Then, at dinner tonight, she had some 84 year old woman I've never met. She was belittling me the entirety of the time. Then dinner ends with "You can believe whatever you want though." 02:53 OldCoder Perhaps Old Testament scenes. 02:54 OldCoder Sounds... 02:54 OldCoder Huh 02:54 OldCoder Why did you stay? 02:54 Jakssoul Stay? 02:54 OldCoder At the table? 02:54 OldCoder Put up with it? 02:54 Jakssoul I'm respectful of those I have to live with. 02:54 Jakssoul Parents, foster or not. 02:54 OldCoder You are required to be civil and respectful 02:54 OldCoder But that is different is it not? 02:54 VanessaE I am SO glad I'm Jewish. Sorry for the Christians in this channel, but *groan* I cannot fathom why anyone would treat someone that way. 02:54 VanessaE it's wrong in so many ways. 02:54 Jakssoul I suppose it is, yes. But, I kept my mouth shut and sat there. 02:54 OldCoder VanessaE, It is any faith or even secular matters 02:55 OldCoder The dividing line is... self righteous 02:55 VanessaE true. 02:55 OldCoder So I watch for that in myself 02:55 OldCoder <-- not perfect, to be clear 02:55 VanessaE we have our fundies in this faith too (Orthodox, Hasidim). 02:55 OldCoder A little humility goes a long way 02:55 OldCoder Yep 02:55 OldCoder BUT 02:55 OldCoder Not every "fundie" in any faith wishes to crush you 02:55 OldCoder Some actually have... faith 02:56 OldCoder For others it is about something else 02:56 OldCoder Hmm 02:56 VanessaE of course I'm about as reform as it gets - I listen to christmas music, enjoy the lights, eat pizza with plenty of pork products, wear clothes of mixes fibers,.... :-) 02:56 OldCoder Pork Products 02:56 OldCoder That is plenty reformed all right :-) 02:56 Jakssoul Mmmm. Yes, generalizing religious people is never good. Though, in general (I'm about to do it anyway), they generalize agnostics, atheists, or people of any other religion as evil. 02:56 OldCoder Yep 02:56 OldCoder And yet... 02:56 VanessaE OldCoder: well I'm using "fundie" specifically to mean those who choose to "crush", as you put it. Not in the generic sense. 02:56 OldCoder Yep 02:56 OldCoder Both of you have valid perspectives 02:57 OldCoder Here is an irony 02:57 OldCoder I will not take up the channel with much personal business but this I will say... 02:57 VanessaE pork products. I love my dead, cooked pig - with cheese ;-) 02:57 Jakssoul HAHA. (Nicccee..) Yes, OldCoder? 02:57 OldCoder My fundamentalist father seeks to crush me. My fundamentalist attorney fights back and writes letters consigning him to Hell. And fundamentalist friends support. It is fundamentalist fun. 02:58 OldCoder :D 02:58 Jakssoul I'd like to apologize to everyone for clogging this channel up with my personal stuff. 02:58 VanessaE dayum 02:58 Jakssoul Wow. That seems a fun cycle. 02:58 OldCoder Jakssoul, It is quiet tonight 02:58 OldCoder Go for it until somebody else speaks of Minetest 02:58 VanessaE OldCoder: "But, he told me to go to hell!" "Well, I checked the law on that and...you don't have to go." 02:58 OldCoder Yep 02:58 Jakssoul Hahahaha! 02:58 VanessaE (Bobby Jones commenting to a client during his years as a lawyer) 02:58 OldCoder The other side did not reply to that part if I recall correctly 02:58 OldCoder Heh 02:59 Jakssoul After I told her "God" is not real, she later said at dinner "God told me you didn't believe in him weeks ago." So that's why you kept praying with me and "PRETENDING" that you didn't know. 02:59 Jakssoul Lies lies lies. Fun fun! 03:00 Jakssoul Praying for me* 03:00 VanessaE as depicted in the movie (Bobby Jones: Stroke of Genius), the old man just kinda smiled knowing he didn't really need to pursue it any further :-) 03:00 VanessaE Jakssoul: *facepalm* 03:00 VanessaE OldCoder: uploading now... 03:01 Jakssoul Anyway, how's that olddd Minetest going? :P I tried getting my Fiance to play. She played singleplayer and apparently didn't like it. o.O 03:01 VanessaE Jakssoul: it's going well :-) 03:02 Jakssoul It kind of blew my mind. What's not to like!? :p 03:02 Jakssoul It sucks, because her laptop has 8 times as much RAM as mine does, has a screen almost twice as big, and a WAAAY bigger harddrive. All she does is use Facebook. *groans* 03:02 VanessaE Jakssoul: my husband is in the same boat as your fiancé - he doesn't see what's so special about it. 03:03 VanessaE (he prefers board games and pinball) 03:03 Jakssoul *GASPS* 03:03 VanessaE OldCoder: upload complete. You may update when ready :-) 03:03 Jakssoul Like, windows Pinball? Or real pinball? 03:03 VanessaE Windows pinball actually. 03:04 VanessaE he has like three different ones he plays, plus Emelia pinball on linux. 03:04 Jakssoul I just cried for you. I'm so sorry! xD 03:04 Jakssoul Hahahaa. :p 03:04 VanessaE heh 03:05 VanessaE to him, I'm obsessed. :-) 03:05 sdzen windows pinball is fun actually 03:05 Jakssoul Windows Pinball is fun until the sound effects aren't fun. At least, for me. XD 03:05 VanessaE sdzen: did you see the revised pull request? it's even better than before :-) 03:06 VanessaE sdzen: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82 03:06 VanessaE Jakssoul: he plays without audio turned on, via a virtual machine. 03:06 VanessaE (like he, he runs linux) 03:07 Jakssoul Wait. What? 03:07 Jakssoul He likes it... WITHOUT AUDIO? 03:07 Jakssoul It's... it's... It's WORTHLESS without the amazing sound effects! Is he currently suffering from some kind of crippling mental disorder? (If he really is, I was kidding, I promise!!!) 03:08 VanessaE haha 03:08 VanessaE no, neither of us cares much for sound effects in games except on a limited basis. 03:08 sdzen hmmmm 03:08 sdzen is it bad if i like the old fix better? 03:08 sdzen with this one it makes creating mese blocks kinda cheap 03:09 Jakssoul I don't like sound effects either. Except in Pinball. 03:09 sdzen i liked the make mese blocks like making steel blocks thing 03:09 VanessaE sdzen: they still are. 03:09 sdzen hmmm? 03:09 VanessaE this just makes it so the old mese object is still available, but deprecated,. 03:09 sdzen wha.... 03:09 sdzen now im lost 03:10 sdzen how many different mese''sss are there? 03:10 VanessaE szden: the old mese object, plus the new ore, blocks, crystals, fragments. 03:10 VanessaE the old mese object can be crafter into crystals too, so it doesn't lose any value. :-) 03:10 VanessaE crafted. 03:11 VanessaE I covered everything with this update. 03:11 sdzen hmmmm 03:11 hmmmm hmmmm 03:11 VanessaE hmmm? 03:11 Jakssoul How do I use player textures? 03:11 sdzen you know these are the kind of things that should be covered before you commit 03:11 sdzen just saying 03:12 Jakssoul Bahaha. Same as other textures? Or am I being a dumb newb and there is a guide somewhere? 03:12 VanessaE Jakssoul: on a server, you just ask the admin to install whatever minecraft (yes) skin you want. for singleplayer use it's kinda pointless since you can't see yourself :-) 03:12 VanessaE but yeah, they behave like any other texture. 03:12 VanessaE name it character.png or some such, and put it in minetest/textures/all 03:12 Jakssoul Oh darn. I was going to put it on singleplayer assuming I could go to 3rd person perspective like Minecraft. Forgot! Wooops. 03:13 Jakssoul I was going to Slenderman creep on trees. xD 03:13 sdzen I mean how many pull requests have I seen that get thrown under incredible scrutiny before being commited 03:13 sdzen lots before 03:13 sdzen not so many now..... 03:14 VanessaE sdzen: let's face it, as a coder I suck :-) 03:15 VanessaE sdzen: besides, in this case it was more a matter of realizing how dumb a given idea is and ripping it apart for a revisal :-) 03:17 sdzen i must admit this idea got much more attention then any other idea ive seen in some time 03:17 sdzen mainly because there was a vote 03:17 sdzen which never happens 03:19 VanessaE well the end result is a better model for mese anyway :-) 03:19 VanessaE and since the old stuff ain't generated anymore after this change, it'll gradually fade into obscurity like it was originally meant to :-) 03:24 Jakssoul Money. 03:24 Exio wait, mese changed? 03:24 Exio when?! 03:24 Exio i missed something :P 03:25 VanessaE Exio: a few days ago; the aforementioned pull request just tunes it a bit. 03:25 Jakssoul Holy LIMESTONE! I am trying to delete a texture pack and it's taking forever!!! 03:28 OldCoder VanessaE, I have been in a meeting. Updating now. 03:28 VanessaE OldCoder: at your leisure. 03:29 Jakssoul Anyone know how to get "jordach's" Minecraft texture pack to work? His instructions direct you to extract a foler into /minetest/games/ , but I've had no change in the game after doing that? 03:29 Exio well 03:30 VanessaE Jakssoul: copy the PNG files to minetest/textures/all 03:30 Exio https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/commit/40dac4cde4782943eb00f7bfc7ce2d99135be7c9 03:30 moltenbot Exio's link: Fixed u64 ambiguous symbol error ? 40dac4c ? celeron55/minetest ? GitHub 03:30 Jakssoul Alrighty. That it? 03:30 Exio that was my problem VanessaE 03:30 Jakssoul There are no PNG files. 03:31 OldCoder VanessaE, same links? 03:31 OldCoder VanessaE, the map or the mods or both? 03:31 VanessaE yep 03:31 VanessaE I update all four links at once 03:32 OldCoder All right 03:32 OldCoder D/Lg 03:32 OldCoder VanessaE, my... your world is growing :-) 03:33 VanessaE indeed it is :-) 04:02 VanessaE morning, mauvebic and whoever else :-) 04:02 VanessaE (or evening as the case may be) 04:03 OldCoder Yep 04:07 jojoa1997 just wondering who is here 04:07 jojoa1997 MERRY CHRISTMAS 04:08 VanessaE hi jojo 04:09 jojoa1997 hi did you look at my mod 04:09 OldCoder jojoa1997, which one? 04:09 jojoa1997 sorry to be rude how was your christmas? 04:10 jojoa1997 oldcoder: i got my npc mod top work \o/ 04:10 OldCoder Good for you! 04:10 OldCoder Link? 04:10 OldCoder I will review this weke 04:10 leo_rockway greetings 04:10 OldCoder I will review this week * 04:10 VanessaE jojoa1997: not yet, I haven't had a chance 04:10 OldCoder leo_rockway, hey 04:10 VanessaE I have it open in a tab though 04:10 VanessaE evening leo_rockway 04:10 jojoa1997 http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4167 04:10 moltenbot jojoa1997's link: [Mod] Peaceful NPC [1.2] [peaceful_npc] (Page 1) - Mod Releases - Minetest Forums 04:11 jojoa1997 oldcoder:cant wait for review and ending up to do what i wanted i just needed to tell the node to do the spawning function if there was less than max 04:12 jojoa1997 not to stop it if there is more than max 04:12 VanessaE jojoa1997: you are certain this thing is stable? 04:12 jojoa1997 yes 04:12 VanessaE jojoa1997: how long did you let it run on your game afrer your last change before declaring it so? 04:12 VanessaE after* 04:12 leo_rockway what do peaceful mobs do? do they provide raw materials? 04:12 jojoa1997 gonna test it again though just for you 04:12 VanessaE leo_rockway: you can kill them for mese crystal fragments. 04:13 jojoa1997 when you kill them you get a mese fregment 04:13 leo_rockway okay 04:13 jojoa1997 shot found a problem 04:13 VanessaE jojoa1997: I suggest having them drop a Mese Crystal 04:13 jojoa1997 shoot 04:13 jojoa1997 k 04:13 VanessaE but only randomly, say a 1 in 4 chance of it. 04:14 VanessaE well no 04:14 VanessaE make that about a 1 in 10 chance. 04:14 VanessaE make the player work a bit for it 04:14 Exio 1/50 04:14 jojoa1997 brb 04:14 OldCoder jojoa1997, c u 04:14 jojoa1997 1/15 04:14 VanessaE 1/50? That's a bit low isn't it? 04:17 Exio well, yes 04:18 jojoa1997 how is this if self.object:get_hp() == 0 then 04:18 jojoa1997 local obj = minetest.env:add_item(self.object:getpos(), "default:mese_crystal_fragment") end 04:19 jojoa1997 chance = 15 04:19 jojoa1997 end 04:19 VanessaE I dunno about the chance variable, but make it default:mese_crystal 04:19 VanessaE (not fragment) 04:19 VanessaE they're more useful than fragments 04:20 jojoa1997 can you craft a crystal out of fragments 04:22 jojoa1997 well can you 04:29 VanessaE no 04:29 VanessaE crystals can only be broken, not put together 04:29 VanessaE the idea of fragments is that they be used to low-power items 04:41 Kacey hello 04:41 VanessaE hey 04:41 Kacey mythbuntu is pretty cool 04:42 Kacey runs chromium natively 04:42 Kacey brb 04:53 Jordach hello all 04:53 * Jordach flops down sleepily on the channel sofa 04:54 VanessaE hey that's MY spot 04:54 VanessaE shove over! 04:54 VanessaE :) 04:55 Jordach heh 04:55 VanessaE Jordach: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82 04:55 VanessaE better? 04:57 home_ back 04:57 * VanessaE wonders who home_ is :-) 04:58 Kacey_ lol wow 04:58 VanessaE that's better 04:58 Kacey_ xubuntu 12.04 04:59 Kacey_ gtg 04:59 Kacey_ nvm 05:01 * VanessaE pokes at Jordach 05:01 * Jordach reuturns said poke 05:01 VanessaE Jordach: code ^^^^^ 05:01 * Kacey_ pokes himself 05:02 Jordach already looked 05:02 VanessaE and? 05:03 Jordach its good 05:04 VanessaE good, now where the hell is PilzAdam at to push it through :-) 05:06 Exio in /dev/reallife :P 05:07 VanessaE I/O error reading /dev/reallife: No such file/directory. 05:07 Jordach in real life: linux cannot be life 05:07 Jordach also, hes been very active on xbox live 05:08 Exio hehe 05:08 VanessaE cool 05:09 Exio Jordach: who said linux? 05:09 Exio /dev comes from unix! 05:09 Jordach also: hes been playing SKYRIM 05:10 * hohoho thinks he's going senile ~_~ 05:10 Jordach https://live.xbox.com/en-GB/Profile?gamertag=PilzAdam 05:10 moltenbot Jordach's link: PilzAdam's Profile - Xbox.com 05:10 Jordach see? 05:11 Kacey_ brb 05:16 Jordach VanessaE, 5:16 am and the tv has crap on :( 05:16 Jordach (literally crap shows.) 05:16 VanessaE there's a surprise :-/ 05:16 VanessaE I gave up watching TV long ago, generally. 05:16 Jordach fuck it, youtube! 05:16 hohoho hey VanessaE same here. not watched tv in about 5 years or so 05:17 Jordach so thats why you live in /dev/null 05:17 hohoho sorry im not more talkative tonight. trying to remember my passwords to my email and encrypted stashes 05:17 hohoho lol 05:17 hohoho I can tell my minds not as sharp as it used to be 05:18 hohoho btw VanessaE just wanted to mention that somehow you seem and feel like an old friend. one that's been around forever. yet I don't know you lol 05:18 hohoho anyone else have same feeling from them? 05:18 VanessaE heh 05:18 VanessaE well thanks :-) 05:18 Exio going to sleep, night 05:19 hohoho night exio 05:19 * VanessaE groans in tiredness 05:19 * hohoho passes some coffee? 05:19 VanessaE I/O reading /dev/brain: Bus error 05:19 VanessaE aw fuck I blew it :-) 05:20 VanessaE coffee sounds pretty good. pass the cream and stevia? 05:20 VanessaE more than that. I like a little coffee with my cream :-) 05:21 hohoho I used to drink my coffee black (back when I was good at making coffee) 05:22 Kacey back 05:23 hohoho wb kacey 05:24 Kacey ty 05:26 Kacey VanessaE 05:31 VanessaE Oh sure, I step away for 5 mins and I miss something 05:33 VanessaE well 10 mins 05:37 Kacey back 05:37 VanessaE wb 05:37 VanessaE you rang? 05:37 Kacey aah yes i seem to not be able to load the map 05:38 VanessaE oh no.. not again :( 05:38 Kacey what? 05:42 Kacey what? 05:44 * Kacey is phasing in and out of reality 05:45 VanessaE the server mapgen is jammed again. 05:45 VanessaE wtf is the problem?????? 05:45 Kacey jammed? 05:45 VanessaE Kacey: it ain't loading for me, or for jojoa1997 05:46 Kacey hmmm server restart? 05:46 Kacey would that work at all? 05:51 * Kacey is extremely bored 06:02 Kacey back 06:03 Jordach OldCoder, still here? 06:03 Kacey hallo 06:03 kaeza hello everyone 06:03 OldCoder Jordach, yes 06:03 kaeza and merry christmas ^_^ 06:03 Jordach okay. 06:03 OldCoder Preparing to add stuff 06:03 Jordach and yes 06:04 Jordach im up real early 06:04 OldCoder I'd still like to see your xmas mod 06:04 Jordach just use the creative world 06:04 Jordach which is port? 06:04 Kacey VanessaE are you alive? 06:05 VanessaE no 06:05 kaeza hi Kacey 06:05 kaeza hey hey VanessaE 06:05 Kacey ok then 06:05 Jordach O.O 06:05 Kacey hallo 06:05 mauvebic iive dipped in slightly into the holiday sauce :S 06:05 VanessaE what's up, kacey? 06:05 mauvebic perhaps later we'll be able to trip the title and festive :-) 06:05 Kacey have you fixed the mapgen issue yet? 06:06 VanessaE I restarted it 06:06 kaeza juyst great... it's raining now 06:06 kaeza so fck beach day tomorrow 06:06 Jordach VanessaE, how much room does the vps have 06:06 Kacey ok so that means my skin is on? 06:07 VanessaE you know something is seriously screwed up when I can't even get it to load more than the immediate spawn area (it eventually loaded after waiting about 6 or 7 minutes) and I'm running the client on the same machine as the server. 06:07 mauvebic you can have a snow day here 06:07 Jordach is this your own pc? 06:07 VanessaE Jordach: it's my PC, and it presently has 16GB free in the drive the server's files are on. 06:07 Jordach try windows. might be faster.. *sniggers* 06:07 VanessaE >:-( 06:07 leo_rockway kaeza: the rain didn't last much here. But they say it's going to rain a lot more in a few hours. 06:07 Kacey brb 06:08 Jordach VanessaE, i ran a server off this pc before and it ran xp 06:08 Jordach 7 people without issues 06:08 VanessaE Jordach: something has severely broken in the server code if it can't even stay up 6 hours without a restart. I don't mean to bitch, but this has gotta be fixed. 06:09 Jordach did any commit recently change server.cpp 06:10 VanessaE checking... 06:10 kaeza leo_rockway: hope that's true 06:11 VanessaE Jordach: plenty of stuff in november. 06:11 Jordach when was 0.4.4 stable 06:11 VanessaE damned if I can even begin to figure out where to look 06:12 VanessaE Dec. 6 06:13 mauvebic my map is over 4 months old and it has no problems :/ 06:13 VanessaE yeah but do you run a server 24/7? 06:14 mauvebic do you really think uptime is the issue? 06:14 VanessaE yes. 06:15 VanessaE For the first few hours it's fine. after about 4-6 hours, somewhere in that range, the map generator/loader/something-er stops sending useful data to the client 06:15 aldobr hi all 06:15 mauvebic maybe one of your players inadvertenly did something to cause a mod conflict? 06:15 VanessaE in effect the map won't load then. 06:16 VanessaE a mod conflict would be reflected in the CPU usage of the server e.g. lockups or so. that isn't happening. 06:16 mauvebic well this one time i accidentally shot a ball of 100 saplings, the map wouldn't load until i disabled saplings 06:17 VanessaE the map stops loading, but the CPU usage stays tolerable (less than 50% anyway) and people can still chat - and I can execute commands e.g. /status or /time and get instant responses. 06:19 mauvebic how much of the map you can save? 06:19 VanessaE eh? 06:19 aldobr why generated map chunks are stored ? why dont just store the deltas and have the client side generate chunks everytime the player enter then ? 06:19 mauvebic well, do you have the same problem with backup copies? 06:19 VanessaE the map is only 207 MB. 06:19 mauvebic compressed? 06:20 VanessaE mauvebic: raw. 06:20 mauvebic mine is twice that raw and i dont have that problem ::/ 06:20 mauvebic but did you try backups? 06:20 VanessaE I've tried before. 06:20 VanessaE at least once. 06:20 mauvebic and you get the same thing? 06:20 VanessaE yup. 06:20 mauvebic i still vote mod conflict then 06:20 VanessaE and thexyz confirmed that my map files are not corrupted. 06:21 VanessaE define "mod conflict" 06:22 mauvebic well just with default mods and my modpack oldcoder and i had a hard time getting my doors to work 06:22 OldCoder Oh? 06:22 OldCoder Yes 06:22 mauvebic they wouldn't open for some reason lol 06:22 mauvebic i still haven't found the bug so i left the doors open in the meantime lol 06:23 VanessaE well this is all-grey screen no map at all kind of stuff. Not some mod fails to operate. 06:23 mauvebic mod conflict can be anything: having two mods use the same global variable name (can happen with lots of mods) 06:23 mauvebic well its not a mod fail but something could be eating up the CPU or causing a recursive cycle 06:23 Jordach like mesecons 06:23 VanessaE eating CPU? it only uses about 40% or so when it does this. 06:24 VanessaE it's a bug in the engine, plain and simple. 06:24 mauvebic nakedfury told me about two or three mods he had that shared the same craft 06:24 mauvebic who else has the same problem then? 06:24 VanessaE thexyz had it happen once. oldcoder's servers used to do it, too. 06:24 mauvebic until he went with levelDB? 06:25 VanessaE so it would appear. 06:25 OldCoder Could be masking the problem 06:25 Jordach could sql be locking minetest out of access 06:25 mauvebic if it was a db thing, my world should be crapping out too? 06:25 Jordach when minetest is the current host 06:25 OldCoder mauvebic, You mean... only a db problem 06:26 mauvebic where are metas stored, the db? 06:27 Kacey back 06:28 mauvebic vanessae does the mapper app still work on your world? 06:29 VanessaE yep 06:29 VanessaE kacey, server going down. 06:30 mauvebic the mapper could be tweaked to make a giant WEP 06:31 aldobr my question was not answered :/ 06:31 aldobr why generated map chunks are stored ? why dont just store the deltas and have the client side generate chunks everytime the player enter then ? 06:31 aldobr *then = them 06:31 kaeza aldobr: hi 06:32 kaeza merry christmas 06:32 aldobr doesnt make sense 06:32 kaeza ^_^ 06:32 aldobr merry christmas 06:32 kaeza that's also a question of mine 06:32 Kacey back? 06:32 aldobr its quite inefficent 06:32 Kacey wow 06:32 Kacey when will server be up? 06:32 kaeza that should relive some traffic from the server 06:32 aldobr the whole point of a procedurally generated map is that you dont use a lot of memmory 06:33 aldobr cause anything can be recalled from the generating algorithm 06:33 aldobr just store whatever change the players done to the map 06:33 aldobr using a kind of journal 06:33 kaeza marktraceur: since you are "closer" to the core dev team, can this be implemented? 06:33 aldobr indexed by x,y,z of chunks 06:34 aldobr and thats all 06:35 Kacey VanessaE is server up? 06:35 VanessaE it is now. 06:35 Kacey k 06:36 aldobr when player enters an unloaded chunk 06:36 aldobr it generates that chunk locally 06:36 VanessaE aldobr: maybe it's faster to store the map and then reload it than to just re-generate it all the time? 06:36 aldobr if the random seed is the same as the server, the result will be the same (cause the number is pseudorandom) 06:36 aldobr the client then asks the server for the deltas relative to that chunk 06:36 kaeza VanessaE: what we mean is to just send the delta (i.e difference) of the map 06:37 aldobr and apply the deltas to the chunk 06:37 aldobr and show the result to player 06:37 kaeza and initially generate the map on the client 06:37 aldobr VanessaE, look at incremental backups 06:37 aldobr they work right like that 06:37 aldobr or mpeg video 06:37 aldobr same theory 06:37 VanessaE yes I know. 06:38 aldobr its a kind of compression 06:38 VanessaE but you still have to repeatedly call the map generator code, or you have to load the generated data from disk/memory - one or the other. 06:38 aldobr this is the size x speed constraint 06:38 kaeza but it's still faster than sending the map over the network 06:38 aldobr usually network + disk is slower than processor these days 06:39 kaeza and less resource intensive for the network 06:39 VanessaE that much is probably true, but whether that's what the server does now or not, I dunno 06:39 aldobr the server generates the chunk 06:39 aldobr as soon as someone visits it 06:39 aldobr then it stores the chunk into sqlite 06:39 aldobr no matter if the chunk was modified or not 06:39 kaeza is celeron55 here? 06:39 aldobr so if you are simply walking from point A to B 06:39 aldobr you are generating or reloading chunks from sqlite 06:40 Kacey VanessaE the server shut down 06:40 aldobr even if you dont change a single block 06:40 VanessaE sigh. your use of the water can crashed it. 06:40 Kacey ooh 06:41 VanessaE restarted. 06:41 Kacey lava can can really dig though lol 06:41 VanessaE don't use the water can until RealBadAngel fixes it. 06:41 VanessaE well water or lava, I dunno which 06:41 Kacey water can works fine 06:42 aldobr the side effect of client map generation is that the task is offloaded from server 06:43 VanessaE ..onto a client that needs all the CPU power it can get? no way. 06:44 aldobr client needs all cpu power ? 06:44 aldobr when i run local game 06:44 VanessaE Kacey: restarted the server, without water/lava cans enabled. 06:44 aldobr i get 9fps 06:44 aldobr sometimes 1fps 06:45 aldobr when i connect to a remote server i get 60fps 06:45 aldobr so the server is the main power hog here 06:45 Kacey no im going to get off for the night so goodnight and merry christmas 06:45 aldobr and my machine is quite old and crappy 06:45 VanessaE and if you offload mapgen to the client, how does that help the client machine's CPU load? 06:45 aldobr is client cpu really a constraint ? 06:46 VanessaE you're just moving the problem from one side of the network to the other instead of fixing the root issue 06:46 VanessaE yes, it is. 06:46 aldobr i dont believe 06:46 aldobr like i said 06:46 aldobr from experience 06:46 VanessaE this is a 3d game, you need all the CPU you can get to pour into the rendering engine 06:46 aldobr hmmm 06:46 aldobr nope 06:46 aldobr doesnt work that way 06:46 aldobr being 3d means nothin 06:46 aldobr mordern GPUs does almost all work 06:47 aldobr even crappy ones like mine 06:47 VanessaE not here they don't. 06:47 aldobr i have a 32bit GPU 06:47 aldobr yet i get 60FPS when i play on a remote server 06:47 OldCoder NEWS U.S. worlds restarted with updates changes fixes. 06:47 aldobr its a nForce integrated GPU 06:47 aldobr VanessaE 06:47 aldobr if the client generates the map 06:47 VanessaE if that were the case, my HD6870 video card would be able to sustain no less than 200 fps. As it is, it can barely do 50-60, because a lot of the engine runs on the CPU, not the GPU 06:47 aldobr you divide the load by the ammount of players 06:48 aldobr simple math 06:48 aldobr two players are connected to the server 06:48 aldobr both request a new map chunk 06:48 VanessaE so how does the server know what the land is like? 06:48 aldobr a single CPU (the server's one) will have to generate both chunks 06:48 aldobr using current model 06:48 VanessaE it has to generate the map too. 06:48 aldobr using my proposed model 06:48 aldobr two CPUs generates a map chunk each 06:49 aldobr thats the load/2 06:49 aldobr if there are 8 players 06:49 VanessaE so you propose having the client send its generated data back to the server? 06:49 aldobr load/8 06:49 aldobr or 06:49 aldobr the server not generating data at all 06:49 VanessaE terrible idea. that has "security hole" written all over it. 06:49 aldobr server only need to know the map on certain cases 06:49 aldobr security hole ? are we guarding the fort knox or playing an opensource game ? 06:50 VanessaE the client must be treated as an untrusted, hostile machine. 06:50 aldobr i can hack the hell out of the source code in the current model 06:50 VanessaE otherwise some idiot with a hacked client comes in and starts generating lava lakes or other shit 06:50 aldobr you cant 06:50 VanessaE and using hacked mapgen to destroy buildings 06:50 aldobr the server generates a chunk 06:50 aldobr but ONLY when needed 06:50 aldobr nope 06:50 VanessaE that's how it works now. 06:50 aldobr deltas still need to be sent to the server 06:51 aldobr and they can be stamped with the player name 06:51 aldobr who done then 06:51 aldobr *them 06:51 aldobr if a server side lua script access minetest.env 06:51 aldobr THEN the server generates the chunk and caches it 06:51 aldobr else 06:52 aldobr it lets this to the player 06:52 Jordach anyways, merry xmas 06:52 aldobr if security is really a problem 06:52 aldobr i dont believe current model is out of flaws 06:53 VanessaE the current model is being rewritten by hmmmm anyway 06:53 aldobr does the server validate ALL player actions ? 06:53 VanessaE yes it does. 06:53 VanessaE at least if anticheat is turned on 06:53 aldobr what happens if i hack my client to allow me to fly ? 06:53 VanessaE otherwise it kinda stops caring where the player is. 06:54 VanessaE I'm sure the server can refuse to let you actually fly, you just wouldn't see it 06:54 VanessaE just as anticheat keeps you from running too fast 06:54 aldobr i believe the client can simply ignore the server 06:54 aldobr and fly anyway :P 06:54 VanessaE the server has the ultimate authority on where the player is on the map. 06:55 aldobr actually 06:55 aldobr the anti-cheat is a source of lag 06:55 VanessaE in a properly designed system, all the client can do is say "I am here x,y,z" and the server either says "ok" or "no you aren't", and disabled player's actions in the latter case. 06:55 aldobr disabling anti-cheat makes the server run much faster 06:55 OldCoder Hence we do it 06:55 VanessaE yup, I have it disabled on mine because getting lag-teleported all over the map sucks. 06:56 aldobr i dont believe a feature that decreases functionality is worth it 06:56 aldobr people will simply disable it and go on 06:56 aldobr better solution would be to create a watch command 06:56 aldobr that allows a mod to see everything that the player is doing 06:57 aldobr the mod can then watch suspected cheaters and ban then accordingly 06:57 aldobr if the player is hacking the mapgen 06:57 aldobr the player changes will not make sense to the moderator correctly generated map 06:58 aldobr so the cheat will be obvious 06:58 hmmmm aldobr, it's like that because map generation was (and currently still is in the master branch) horrendously slow 06:58 VanessaE but how is the server to know what the correctly-generated map looks like? 06:59 aldobr the server dont need 06:59 hmmmm for what it's worth, minecraft stores the entire chunk too. i know of another minecraft clone that does what you say, however 06:59 aldobr the mod is a client with special privs 06:59 aldobr he attaches itself to the client 06:59 aldobr but his own map generator will be a correct one 07:00 aldobr when the hacker hacks the map generator 07:00 aldobr there will be a difference between the mod's and the hacker maps 07:00 aldobr so whatever the hacker does, will make no sense for the mod machine 07:00 VanessaE terrible idea. 07:00 aldobr "he broke a node at position x,y,z" 07:00 aldobr mod machine : "theres nothing to be broke at x,y,z" 07:01 aldobr "he placed a node at x,y,z" 07:01 aldobr mod machine : "you cant put a node mid-air" 07:01 VanessaE the server HAS to have some kind of semblance of the map in order to decide if a client's action is a legal one. 07:01 aldobr it can do 07:01 aldobr but ONLY IF TRULLY NEEDED 07:01 VanessaE otherwise the hacker will just hack the *entire* client, including client-side mapgen 07:01 aldobr like when a script calls minetest.env:get_node 07:01 aldobr VanessaE you still dont understand 07:01 VanessaE I do onderstand 07:01 aldobr attach the mod to the client 07:01 aldobr well 07:02 VanessaE but you're treating this as if the client can be trusted at all. 07:02 hmmmm none of that is necessary at all, if somebody wants to cheat they can in any imaginable scenario 07:02 VanessaE it cannot be. 07:02 aldobr nope 07:02 VanessaE the client is NOT trustworthy. 07:02 aldobr nope <- to vanessa 07:02 aldobr hmmmm yes i believe that too 07:02 aldobr VanessaE 07:02 aldobr the cheater will have to save his deltas to the server 07:02 aldobr right ? 07:02 aldobr or else he will be connected to the server but living in a parallel universe without effect on other players 07:03 VanessaE basic network security 101: the client machine cannot be trusted. The server must be in a position to validate all decisions made by the client. 07:03 aldobr send a copy of the deltas to the mod machine 07:03 aldobr as if the mod where doing then 07:03 aldobr omfg VanessaE i am a network engenieer 07:03 VanessaE so? 07:03 aldobr the moderator receives the hacker deltas 07:03 aldobr and apply then as if it was him doing it 07:03 VanessaE and the moderator runs on the server. 07:03 aldobr but the moderator mapgen is correct 07:03 aldobr nope 07:04 VanessaE then your idea will not work. 07:04 aldobr the moderator can be anywhere on the universe 07:04 aldobr if you dont trust the moderator 07:04 VanessaE you're talking about a three-machine scenarion? 07:04 VanessaE scenario* 07:04 aldobr then nothing on the server will save you from cheaters 07:04 aldobr VanessaE 07:04 aldobr instead of having the server validate anything 07:04 aldobr simply allow the mods to watch over the back of players 07:05 aldobr a moderator is much more trustworth than a machine 07:05 VanessaE *facepalm* 07:05 aldobr you dont want to understand 07:05 aldobr so i cant explain better 07:05 aldobr userstamp the deltas 07:05 VanessaE I understand perfectly. 07:05 aldobr so the moderator can rollback the changes 07:05 aldobr if you do 07:05 aldobr i cant see your point 07:06 VanessaE I used to be a system administrator at what others are saying counts as at least a medium-sized web/internet provider. 07:07 VanessaE my coding skills weren't up to the task, which why I didn't stay long. But in the short time I worked there I came to understand more details than I care to remember about how networks work, how proper client<->server relationships work, and what not to do 07:07 aldobr VanessaE 07:07 aldobr i KNOW that you cant trust the remote client 07:08 VanessaE and the first thing you never do is put any part of the server's files under the control of the client, in this case the world map. 07:08 aldobr but my model dont have problem with that ! 07:08 aldobr let the guy do watever he wants 07:08 aldobr is a journal 07:08 aldobr you can simply roll it back 07:08 VanessaE your model passes client commands through to a "moderator". which is still a SERVER. 07:08 aldobr nope 07:08 aldobr it doesnt 07:08 aldobr the client sends his changes to the server 07:08 aldobr the server sends to the mod who asked to watch someone 07:09 aldobr but everything goes on 07:09 aldobr if the mod thinks the player is a cheater 07:09 aldobr he rollsback the player changes and ban it 07:09 aldobr simply 07:09 VanessaE and how does the moderator know? 07:09 aldobr redcrab's got a lot of griefers recently 07:09 aldobr all of then got busted one way or the other 07:10 aldobr because people simply suspect and report to the mod 07:10 VanessaE they all got busted because the system has a rollback recorder. 07:10 VanessaE and that takes place on the minetest server instance. 07:10 aldobr just like the map model i am proposing :) 07:11 aldobr the whole database is a journal 07:11 OldCoder Hmm 07:11 aldobr quite apt to be rolled back 07:11 aldobr wenever the mod wants 07:11 VanessaE but the map data needed by that rollback recorder to be able to undo griefing etc. has to come from *somewhere* 07:11 OldCoder TIP: If you wish to see me and PM me then wait more than 60 seconds please :P 07:11 VanessaE and it CANNOT come from the client, which means it has to come from the server. 07:11 * OldCoder gets PMd and people do not wait 07:11 aldobr VanessaE 07:11 OldCoder If one of you knows Aqua tell him that 07:11 aldobr a journal dont need anything but the journal to be able to roll back 07:12 VanessaE a journal also needs data to operate on. 07:12 aldobr thats the whole point of a journalling file system 07:12 aldobr hm 07:12 aldobr nope 07:12 aldobr it would be something like 07:12 VanessaE that data includes who has permission to operate on a given block 07:12 aldobr player a changed node x,y,z at time timestamp from default:mese to default:air 07:12 VanessaE not just the blocks themselves. 07:13 aldobr player b changed node x,y,z at time timestamp from default:air to default:dirt 07:13 aldobr thats all that is needed 07:13 VanessaE yes, and how does the server know that default:mese was there to begin with? 07:13 aldobr index the database by player, time and x,y,z 07:13 aldobr he dont need 07:13 VanessaE yes it does. 07:13 aldobr why ? 07:14 VanessaE because then the client could change default:stone -> default:air but it's really mese being changed. 07:14 VanessaE or literally any other random block. 07:14 aldobr and ? 07:14 aldobr ok 07:14 aldobr he is cheating 07:14 aldobr he will send that command to the server 07:14 aldobr i want to change x,y,z from mese to air 07:14 VanessaE yes, and how is the server supposed to detect the cheating if it doesn't have a copy of the map? 07:14 aldobr the mod is attached to him 07:14 aldobr he will be proxied that command too 07:15 aldobr the mod machine says : i cant change from mese to air because theres no mese there ! 07:15 VanessaE right 07:15 aldobr the mod knows the guy is cheating 07:15 aldobr bans him 07:15 VanessaE stop. 07:15 VanessaE now, how does the moderator know there wasn't any mese there? 07:15 VanessaE where does that information come from? 07:15 aldobr because the mod is using a client that generates the map just like any other client 07:15 VanessaE it comes from a map generator somewhere not under the influence of the client. 07:16 aldobr yes 07:16 aldobr and the cheater will have to hack the mod machine to influence the mod machine 07:16 VanessaE and where is that map generator running? it ain't the client, and it obviously ain't the moderator, so there's only one place left: The server. 07:16 aldobr he cant or at least its much harder 07:16 aldobr nope 07:16 aldobr you still dont understand 07:16 VanessaE look 07:16 aldobr its a distributed function 07:16 VanessaE stop. 07:17 VanessaE the "moderator" is still a server. One way or another, no matter how you slice it, it is a server that is not running on the same hardware instance as the client. 07:17 VanessaE the client sends its changes to the "moderator"....to a server. 07:17 VanessaE you're just moving the problem into a different place 07:17 VanessaE an extra layer of abstraction 07:17 VanessaE this solves nothing in the long run 07:18 aldobr but the moderator is not running on the same machine as the server 07:18 VanessaE yes, I get that 07:18 aldobr so the burden is still split between different machines 07:18 VanessaE so where is it running?> 07:18 aldobr in his own machine ? 07:18 aldobr *on 07:18 VanessaE whose own machine? 07:18 VanessaE the person running the minetest server or the one running the client? 07:18 aldobr lets suppose i am a moderator at redcrab's 07:19 VanessaE or a third piece of hardware somewhere else? 07:19 aldobr that machine will be the machine i am using to talk to you here 07:19 aldobr and the server will be whatever redcrab's use 07:19 aldobr a third piece 07:19 VanessaE wait a minute now you're misusing words. are we talking about a program that intercepts these actions or are we talking about a user who has some kind of administrator access to the server? 07:20 aldobr better solution would be to create a watch command 07:20 aldobr watch priv 07:20 aldobr watch command 07:20 VanessaE right, so a piece of software. 07:20 VanessaE which runs where? 07:20 VanessaE a third machine somewhere in the aether? 07:20 aldobr makes someone receive a copy of whatever some player is doing 07:21 aldobr the third machine is the machine the mod is using to play the game 07:21 aldobr a client will have to generate a chunk 07:21 VanessaE so you're proposing 24/7 human intervention by way of a watchdog process? 07:21 aldobr nope 07:21 aldobr never needs to be 24/7 07:21 aldobr just needs someone suspecting someone else 07:21 aldobr and reporting 07:21 aldobr this works on redcrab's 07:22 VanessaE we already do that now 07:22 aldobr all griefers get caught eventually 07:22 aldobr yes VanessaE 07:22 aldobr but you raised a security point against the delta model 07:22 aldobr and i explained why that security point is not worth the trouble 07:22 VanessaE I raised a security point against the model of letting the client generate the map and not making the server do the same 07:22 VanessaE which is a bad idea. 07:22 aldobr if the current model is keept on security basis 07:22 aldobr i am showing you how the security would work at a different model 07:23 aldobr most server owners disable anti-cheat anyway 07:23 aldobr so... 07:23 VanessaE your idea will not work. 07:23 aldobr kaeza did you understand my idea ? 07:23 kaeza hm? 07:23 * kaeza is scrolling up 07:23 aldobr kaeza hunf 07:23 aldobr kaeza 07:23 aldobr have the players generate the map 07:23 aldobr the server only generates the map if needed 07:23 aldobr the server stores only deltas 07:24 aldobr and send those to players 07:24 aldobr if theres a cheater on the server 07:24 VanessaE you're asking the server to accept data from the client that cannot be trusted, data that has to be validated somewhere between the player clicking the mouse or executing some client-side script and the server saving those changes to disk. 07:24 aldobr a moderator can attach himself to the cheater and what him build 07:24 VanessaE somewhere, the server HAS to be able to say "no, you can't do that". 07:24 VanessaE and the only way it can do that is to know what the map looks like and who has rights to modify a given area. 07:24 aldobr if he is cheating the map generator, the moderator will see this 07:24 aldobr and ban/rollback him 07:24 aldobr VanessaE its a kind of delayed check 07:25 aldobr because anything can be rolled back 07:25 aldobr hm 07:25 aldobr nope 07:25 VanessaE but we can already do that now without help from some client-side map generator 07:25 aldobr rights can be managed in an abstract model 07:25 aldobr you dont need to know the map 07:25 aldobr to know that player a have no right over x1,y1,z1 to x2,y2,z2 07:26 VanessaE you need to know whether there is something there to modify in the first place. 07:26 aldobr because you simply need to check if the player the player wants to build falls within the boundaries of a protected area 07:26 VanessaE that means having terrain 07:26 aldobr nope 07:26 VanessaE yes. 07:26 aldobr player sends a delta at position 10,20,30 07:26 VanessaE otherwise you validate every attempt to dig at air too 07:26 VanessaE which is wasteful 07:26 aldobr server has a hash table with protected areas 07:26 aldobr 10,20,30 falls within a protected area that the player has no right over 07:26 aldobr serve rejects the delta 07:26 aldobr without having to know whats at 10,20,30 07:27 VanessaE mmh 07:27 aldobr player reports being at 10,20,30 07:27 aldobr 100ms later he reports being at 10000,30000,4000 07:27 aldobr server finds this suspicious and rejects the change 07:27 aldobr without having to know anything about the map 07:28 VanessaE ok now you're starting to make some sense. 07:28 VanessaE you were being incredibly vague before. 07:28 aldobr thats how intrusion detection works, by the way 07:28 VanessaE but you still have one problem to solve: 07:28 VanessaE the map generator is, as hmmmm said, horrendously slow. Anyone who has ever played in single player on an older machine - the target hardware for this game mind you - will confirm that. 07:29 VanessaE you cannot run the map generator on the client, otherwise you're just moving the load to a machine that already has enough to do rendering the display. 07:29 aldobr V0id 07:29 VanessaE and Minetest doesn't use the GPU to its fullest potential. 07:29 aldobr ops 07:29 aldobr VanessaE from experience 07:29 aldobr i am a crappy machine user 07:29 aldobr athlon xp with nforce 430 gpu 07:29 VanessaE Minetest is as much CPU-bound as it is GPU-bound. 07:30 aldobr its a crappy 32bits shared memory GPU 07:30 aldobr 32bits ! 07:30 aldobr when i run single player 07:30 aldobr i cant get more than 9fps 07:30 aldobr when i connect to redcrab's i get 60fps 07:30 aldobr so the server logic is the burden 07:30 aldobr not the rendering 07:30 aldobr if the rendering was heavy 07:30 aldobr my machine would be unable to cope 07:31 VanessaE rendering 16-pixel textures on a 64-bit machine with an HD6870 video card, I should be able to get 200+ fps (not that my monitor can display it). It can barely sustain 50 or 60. This is not the mark of a GPU-bound game. 07:31 aldobr because i assure you, its a crappy machine 07:31 VanessaE this is not to say I have a problem with the rendering speed of the game, but the game NEEDS a lot of CPU to get good rendering speeds. 07:31 aldobr another bottleneck is the serial execution of scripts 07:31 VanessaE that much is true. 07:31 VanessaE but that's server-side. 07:31 kaeza aldobr: I think I understand your point, but as VanessaE said, it's prone to security holes 07:32 aldobr there should be a way to parallelize the scripts 07:32 kaeza what I intend instead is this: 07:32 aldobr i dont enough of lua to understand how 07:32 aldobr *know 07:33 aldobr maybe making all objects thread safe 07:33 aldobr with locks 07:33 aldobr so the scripts will sleep while the interpreter cant get a lock to a object 07:33 aldobr but there will be the problem of unbounded nondeterminism 07:33 kaeza the server calcs a hash for the map block. the client calcs a hash of the map block. since both know the seed, both can generate the same map \ 07:34 aldobr kaeza 07:34 aldobr why generate the map at the server ? 07:34 marktraceur kaeza: Did someone answer your question? 07:34 aldobr i believe the map should be generated only if a script tries to access it 07:34 kaeza now, if the hash does not match, then the client negotiates with the server about the "changes" (or delta) of the chunk \ 07:35 kaeza marktraceur: what question? 07:35 aldobr kaeza the client asks for the deltas, the server returns an empty result 07:35 aldobr whats the difference ? 07:35 kaeza that's good \ 07:35 aldobr the server task is just two tasks : syncronize players and performe sanity checks 07:35 aldobr let all the rest be distributed 07:36 aldobr if you cheat 07:36 VanessaE how do you guarantee that all players are generating from the same seed? 07:36 aldobr but dont send your changes to the server 07:36 kaeza but this "delta generation" is only needed at map load (or new chunk) 07:36 aldobr its like living in a parallel universe 07:36 aldobr like psychosis 07:36 aldobr doesnt matter 07:36 kaeza VanessaE: through the use of hashed seed in the comm 07:37 kaeza or a plain one 07:37 aldobr VanessaE syncronizing random seeds is one of the oldest problems of multiplayer game creation 07:37 aldobr almost all games use that 07:38 aldobr the momment the player sends his changes 07:38 aldobr they can be validated by certain heuristic rules 07:38 aldobr and cheats can be caught 07:38 kaeza the client can check at chunk load/gen that the correct seed is being used 07:38 aldobr an aditional layer is the moderator watching the player 07:38 kaeza s/client/server/ 07:38 VanessaE you still keep missing the fundamental issue: the map generator needs CPU to run. If you put it + render on the client, the server has nothing left to do, and so the load is not evenly distributed. 07:39 aldobr VanessaE it is quite evenly distributed 07:39 aldobr if player A is 100000 miles apart from player B 07:39 aldobr player's A computer will not even hear about what player B is doing 07:39 aldobr so the load is shared 07:39 VanessaE what happens when you have a bunch of players all in the same general area? that's a lot of wasted effort generating duplicate map data then 07:39 aldobr 8 players generate 8 times the load in a centralized server 07:40 aldobr 8 players generate minimal ammount of load on a distributed model 07:40 aldobr 8 players walk in all 8 directions 07:40 aldobr N, NW, W, SW, S etc 07:40 aldobr the server has to generate chunks 8 times 07:40 aldobr on a distributed model 07:41 aldobr every player holds his own burden 07:41 aldobr VanessaE if they are at the same chunk 07:41 aldobr they generate the chunk 8 times 07:41 aldobr but they have 8 times teh processing power anyway 07:41 aldobr 8/8 = 1 07:42 kaeza hmm 07:42 kaeza this still misses the point of 'trusting the client' IMHO 07:42 kaeza so I believe it's a no-no 07:43 aldobr kaeza 07:43 aldobr add a new command 07:43 aldobr -> /watch 07:43 aldobr -> /watch someone 07:43 kaeza yes, so? 07:43 aldobr every delta sent by someone is sent to the moderator too 07:44 aldobr the moderator machine tries to apply the delta to his own map 07:44 kaeza human intervention should not be needed 07:44 aldobr kaeza if you generate the map on the server 07:44 kaeza s/should/must/ 07:44 aldobr distributing map generation will not solve anything 07:45 marktraceur kaeza: I think aldobr asked about deterministic mapgen 07:45 aldobr marktraceur exactly 07:45 kaeza marktraceur: I understand his point 07:45 aldobr when the moderator machine tries to apply the delta 07:45 aldobr it will mismatch 07:45 aldobr so the machine will show a message in the log 07:45 aldobr the player is busted 07:46 aldobr how anti-griefing currently works (usually) ? 07:46 aldobr someone protects his place 07:46 aldobr or 07:46 marktraceur kaeza: As for how possible it is: Possible, but not trivial 07:46 aldobr someone gets griefed and reports to the moderator 07:46 aldobr the moderator types /watch griefer 07:46 aldobr and busts it 07:46 kaeza marktraceur: I guess that's what we are discussing right now 07:46 aldobr remmember that the map can be rolled back 07:47 aldobr because its just a journal registering changes 07:47 marktraceur kaeza: I guess my big question is "what happens when someone changes the map?" 07:47 aldobr marktraceur he sends a delta to the server 07:47 aldobr that validates the delta and stores it into sqlite backend 07:47 aldobr when a player enters the chunk 07:47 aldobr he generates the chunk locally 07:48 hohoho why isn't there a player based rollback? recording all activity of each player then if needed rollback just that one players activity? last I looked at rollback it seemed "general" 07:48 aldobr then asks the server for any deltas/metas for the chunk 07:48 marktraceur aldobr: So basically you're talking about deterministic mapgen plus operational transforms? 07:48 aldobr yep 07:48 VanessaE hohoho: that's how it works. 07:48 kaeza marktraceur: the client does as always in this case, and just sends the action to the server, and the server responds with "OK" or "fck u griefer" 07:48 marktraceur hohoho: There is, you need to enable it 07:48 VanessaE /rollback playername 07:48 hohoho might have to look into it then 07:48 sfan5 hello anyone 07:48 hohoho does the rollback use a lot of resources? 07:48 kaeza hello sfan5 07:48 hohoho hey sfan5 07:49 kaeza merry christmas! 07:49 VanessaE morning sfan5 07:49 sfan5 merry christmas! 07:49 hohoho merry christmas as well 07:49 VanessaE hohoho: not a huge amount, but it does keep a log file on disk that will evntually add up 07:49 hohoho in a few it will be christmas for even those on east coast of usa 07:49 VanessaE ok, time for me to get to bed. 07:49 VanessaE night all. 07:49 kaeza VanessaE: good night 07:49 hohoho VanessaE does it trim the rollback eventually or must it be manually removed? 07:49 hohoho k rest up 07:50 hohoho night 07:50 hohoho or should I say good morning 07:50 hohoho lol 07:50 kaeza VanessaE: and sowwy for fcking up your mind when you are tired ^_^ 07:51 hohoho lol if you change fck to fsck id lulz 07:51 kaeza fsck more yes 07:52 kaeza a dirty shell command line ^_^ 07:53 aldobr its 4am here in brazil 07:53 aldobr i am still eating :P 07:54 aldobr i dont know other contries christmas traditions 07:54 aldobr but here we do a lot of food 07:54 aldobr to celebrate christmas 07:54 hohoho lol there's a lot of "commands" that sound "dirty" 07:54 hohoho like strip and touch 07:55 hohoho finger 07:55 hohoho lol 07:55 hohoho anywho 07:55 hohoho here for christmas it varies 07:55 hohoho some eat a lot 07:55 hohoho some don't 07:55 hohoho some have a lot of presents and others don't 07:55 hohoho some decorate with beer cans and car parts 07:55 hohoho some use lights and tress 07:55 hohoho lol 07:57 aldobr usually the whole family join together at someone's house 07:57 aldobr every woman comes with a food 07:57 aldobr if there are 50 women, there are 50 different types of food 07:58 hohoho not unless most bring mashed potatoes 07:58 aldobr i believe most occidental countries do that way 07:58 aldobr everybody is sleeping while i am playing minetest 07:59 aldobr its 5am now 07:59 aldobr nerdy 07:59 hohoho guilty pleasure 07:59 hohoho lol 08:02 aldobr zzzzz 08:48 markveidemais hi 08:50 kaeza1 hi markveidemais 08:50 markveidemais hu 08:50 kaeza1 aldobr still here? 08:50 markveidemais hi 08:52 kaeza1 markveidemais: what's up? 08:52 markveidemais i am on Zeg9's server 08:52 markveidemais and Merry Christmas 08:52 kaeza1 wrong! the sky :D 08:52 kaeza1 and merry crhistmas to you too! 08:54 aldobr hi 08:54 * kaeza1 throws a bucket of {lava|water} to aldobr 08:55 kaeza1 oh hi! 08:55 kaeza1 thought you were aslep 08:55 kaeza1 asleep* 08:55 aldobr nope 08:55 aldobr still eating 08:55 aldobr i was on redcrab's server 08:55 aldobr it doesnt lag 08:55 aldobr now 08:55 aldobr but i 08:55 aldobr hmm 08:56 kaeza1 can you share IP? I wnt to play too :( 08:56 aldobr its like i dont like minetest anymore 08:56 kaeza1 want* 08:56 kaeza1 aldobr: why? 08:56 aldobr 174.129.196.242 08:56 aldobr dunno 08:56 aldobr i believe i played too much in a too short interval 08:56 aldobr port 30401 08:56 aldobr you need to type /setemail your@email.com 08:56 aldobr and wait for confirmation email 08:56 aldobr to get interact privs 08:57 kaeza1 aldobr: take a time off; a few days, a week, whatever you feel like 08:57 kaeza1 you may be stressed 08:59 kaeza1 aldobr: ^ 08:59 aldobr kaeza1 i will 08:59 aldobr maybe i will only log on to watch others players build 09:00 kaeza1 aldobr: that may be a good idea. just build, don't code 09:00 kaeza1 you need a break every now and then 09:01 kaeza1 or it will drive you crazy 09:04 aldobr i found another way to check for cheaters 09:04 aldobr via packing 09:05 aldobr lets suppose that the map generator says that node x,y,z is a default:dirt 09:05 aldobr and lets suppose dat player A added a delta saying change x,y,z from default:dirt to default:cobble 09:05 aldobr later a player B added a delta saying change x,y,z from default:cobble to default:air 09:05 aldobr now lets suppose that the map is becoming too big 09:06 aldobr add a new operation called zap 09:06 aldobr like /zap x,y,z chunk 09:06 aldobr when you issue zap 09:06 aldobr the chunk is generated by the server 09:06 aldobr deltas applied 09:06 aldobr if deltas mismatch, flag to the mod the name of the user whose delta was cheat 09:07 aldobr else 09:07 aldobr delete all deltas 09:07 aldobr then compare how the map is from mapgen 09:07 aldobr to how the map is now 09:07 aldobr and generate new deltas that mape now become then 09:07 aldobr make the mod issuing /zap to be the player that gets registered for the changes 09:07 aldobr so 09:07 aldobr now te map becomes smalelr 09:07 aldobr *smaller 09:08 aldobr and cheaters can be caught 09:08 aldobr even years aftewards 09:08 aldobr kaeza1 ? 09:08 kaeza1 hm? 09:08 aldobr :/ 09:08 * kaeza1 is reading 09:09 aldobr i am obsessed with minetest map :P 09:09 aldobr i will dream about it as soon as i sleep 09:09 kaeza1 aldobr: sorry if I seem distant now, I'm not in a very clear state of mind 09:10 kaeza1 aldobr: may I PM? 09:10 aldobr yes 09:29 Zeg9 Hello 09:29 aldobr hi 09:31 kaeza see you later channel, gotta sleep 09:31 hohoho rest up 09:31 hohoho ttyl 09:32 * aldobr cant read anymore 09:32 aldobr my eyes hurts 09:32 aldobr gonna sleep 09:32 aldobr zzzzzzzz 09:35 hohoho well I think its time for me to get some sleep as well 09:35 hohoho ta ta 09:35 kaeza good night / morning hohoho 09:48 Jeija|OFF http://mesecons.net/ << new domain 09:48 moltenbot Jeija|OFF's link: mesecons 09:58 Zeg9 Jeija, ads removed ? :D 10:03 Jeija Sure, no ads anymore 10:11 Zeg9 I have to go, bye all 10:28 Zeg9 Forums down? 10:29 jin_xi seems so 10:56 PilzAdam Hello everyone! 11:00 Jordach hey guys 11:00 PilzAdam hey Jordach 11:01 Jordach hey PilzAdam -- i see skyrim on your list 11:01 Jordach PilzAdam, i got a nice headset 11:01 Jordach http://www.trittonaudio.com/prod/ax180.asp 11:01 moltenbot Jordach's link: 11:06 markveidemais Zeg9 11:06 markveidemais on the server: p 11:06 markveidemais please help me transfer to MV power 11:06 Jordach markveidemais, you cant 11:06 Jordach the transformer is not finished 11:07 Jordach mv batboxes are for charging tools faster at the moment 11:07 markveidemais this is not minecraft tekkit! 11:07 Jordach markveidemais, ask RealBadAngel himself 11:07 Jordach mv is "just" there 11:07 markveidemais RealBadAngel... 11:16 PilzAdam the new dirt texture is nice 11:21 Jordach PilzAdam, where have you been 11:21 PilzAdam Skyrim ;-) 11:22 Jordach yep, have that game too 11:22 Jordach also - get on xblv later, i has bf3 + gold. 11:23 PilzAdam :D 11:23 Jordach (hopefully the bf3 online code works.) 11:23 PilzAdam time for my first teamkill in BF3 ;-) 11:23 Jordach hehehehe 11:24 Jordach ill ping you when im going to go on iy 11:24 Jordach it* 11:28 markveidemais who is on Zegathon server 11:57 davidpace Hi all :D 11:59 davidpace Is it just me or are the forums down? 12:00 davidpace Hello iqualfragile! 12:00 iqualfragile davidpace: hi 12:00 iqualfragile are you often in #minetest? 12:00 davidpace Its awfully quiet here now, I just joined a minute ago 12:00 iqualfragile ah, ok 12:00 iqualfragile well, you are about 12 hour too early/late 12:00 davidpace Umm no, I am not often on #minetest, 12:01 davidpace What do yoiu mean? 12:01 davidpace *you 12:01 iqualfragile well, use 12:01 iqualfragile !date 12:01 moltenbot Di 25. Dez 13:01:43 CET 2012 12:01 davidpace !date 12:01 moltenbot Di 25. Dez 13:01:53 CET 2012 12:01 davidpace Hmmm 12:01 iqualfragile when it shows some time between 19 and 3 o clock then its not quiet in #minetest 12:02 davidpace Soo its not quiet? 12:02 PilzAdam hello iqualfragile 12:03 PilzAdam the new dirt textures are nice 12:03 iqualfragile hi PilzAdam 12:03 PilzAdam Frohe Weihnachten! 12:03 iqualfragile i dont usualy make/improve texture, but if you like them i have some minor improvements for farming, too 12:04 iqualfragile Frohe Weihnachten, auch wenn ich das nicht wirklich feiere 12:04 iqualfragile davidpace: no, its just morning, nerds are sleeping in the morning, you know? 12:04 davidpace Yes lol 12:12 iqualfragile !ping minetest.net 12:12 moltenbot host minetest.net DOWN 12:12 iqualfragile gml 12:12 PilzAdam iqualfragile, can you provide textures for this https://github.com/PilzAdam/minetest_game/tree/farming/mods/farming ? 12:12 moltenbot PilzAdam's link: minetest_game/mods/farming at farming ? PilzAdam/minetest_game ? GitHub 12:13 PilzAdam note that you shouldnt use the textures in there because RBA copied them from MC 12:13 PilzAdam maybe take the textures from my other farming mod as a starting point 12:13 iqualfragile as i said, im usaly a programmer, but the texures from your other farming mods annoyed me, or to be precise: two of them 12:14 PilzAdam Frohes Fest john_minetest 12:15 iqualfragile both cotton-related: the it was hard for me to quickly decide on wich cotton plant was fully grown and wich wasnt, so i removed the white pixels from the not-finished step 12:15 iqualfragile and it was hard for me to read how many seeds i do actualy have as white on white is quite unreadable… so i fixed that, too 12:21 iqualfragile there is one "improvement wich is quite obvious: instead of copying the dirt-textures into the soil-textures and adding stuff you should instead just take the aded stuff and ^ it with the dirt-texture (as seen in my litle improovement for grass_side) 12:21 iqualfragile john_minetest: Frohe weihnachten 12:29 Exio PilzAdam: did you check https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82? 12:29 moltenbot Exio's link: Tweaked Mese behavior so that the old Mese object is still available. by VanessaE ? Pull Request #82 ? celeron55/minetest_game ? GitHub 12:30 PilzAdam will do 12:33 artur99 this is real\ 12:33 artur99 : 12:33 artur99 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVXLOb6TCLM 12:33 moltenbot artur99's link: Lets Play: Minetest! Doors, Bows, And Animals! - YouTube 12:33 artur99 ” Doors, Bows, And Animals!”? 12:34 artur99 does really exist animals? 12:35 artur99 in minetest? 12:35 Exio grr, forum down 12:36 Exio and well, iirc, with mob framework, or only sheep + rats with simple mobs 12:38 artur99 and now there isnt animals anymore? 12:40 artur99 this game evoluates so fast? 12:41 artur99 do u saw this game: 12:41 artur99 http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Product/CastleMiner/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-d80258550900 12:42 artur99 ? 12:42 moltenbot artur99's link: CastleMiner - Xbox.com 12:43 sapier mobf will have new release soon ... I'm going to drop the new 3d model support for this releas .... creating 3d models ain't something I'm used to :-/ 12:44 sapier by the way how to tell minetest where to look for textures defined in a 3ds file? 12:46 artur99 where can i find all dorr types 12:46 artur99 ? 12:47 artur99 the forum is down 12:52 Jordach PilzAdam, get down to the xbox 12:52 sapier ok than now I report .3ds is working too ... without textures :-) 12:53 iqualfragile hi sfan5 12:54 sfan5 hi :D 12:54 iqualfragile sapier: well, try to put the textures all over the place, maybee it will find them somewhere 12:54 iqualfragile !ping minetest.net 12:54 moltenbot host minetest.net DOWN 12:55 sapier :-) I've already thought of that but as minetest expects textures to be somewhere within mod folder I first wanted to know if there's a best practice where to put them 12:56 iqualfragile yeah, but i think the .3ds support is not official… 12:56 sapier I'll release next mobf without 3d models but containing all code necessary to support 3d models ... which is not a big deal at all 12:57 sapier is here someone skilled in 3d modeling? my models look somehow strange :) 12:57 iqualfragile sapier: i would love to run (at least parts of) your mobf but: its just too heavy 12:57 iqualfragile what can i/you do about that? 12:58 sapier you know you can disable nearly everything? 12:59 iqualfragile jup 12:59 sapier mobf is just a framework, if those animals you've enabled don't use the features they're not called this can't do anything bad 12:59 iqualfragile but my server dies under the load and gets unresponsive 12:59 iqualfragile even when i just have 15 animals on screen 12:59 sapier what version did you try? 13:00 iqualfragile ühm… 13:00 iqualfragile about 2 month ago, i guess 13:01 sapier hmm as I haven't released a new version for some time this should be latest .. did you have all animals enabled? 13:04 iqualfragile yup, but as i said: it were about 15 onscreen at the max 13:04 iqualfragile & im a bit unshure if i should try again because that leaves unknown objects everywhere 13:05 sapier I've added some code to remove disabled animals probably this makes testing a little bit more conveniant 13:06 sapier most time spawning code introduced lots of lag, mobs still using "heavy" spawning algorithms are vombies (at night only) fishes and gulls 13:06 iqualfragile ah, ok, well, then im gona try 13:07 iqualfragile (when you link me to your git-repos, as the forums are down) 13:07 sapier please wait for the new releas that code is really fresh I'll do a little bit of more testing 13:07 iqualfragile no problem 13:08 sapier I always want to avoid to disappoint ppl trying animals ... especialy if they give feedback 13:10 iqualfragile animals are important, realy 13:11 iqualfragile (well, not _all_ of them 13:11 iqualfragile ) 13:11 iqualfragile but its important to have some dangers 13:11 iqualfragile like vombies 13:12 sapier yes but vombies will requre fast servers spawning in huge amounts at night creates lots of load ... at least until I've got an idea to do it more smart 13:14 iqualfragile i have a fast server. 13:15 sapier if you wan't to try general performance of mobf I recomend start with all animals disabled enabling one by one starting with sheep cow chicken wolf dm maybe vombie 13:17 iqualfragile sapier: how long is it gona take untill you release the next version? 13:18 iqualfragile john_minetest: we all do 13:18 sapier I'm at final polishing atm all features are implemented I'd like to have in next version. I've to do some testing as lot's of (internal) code was changed 13:18 iqualfragile sapier: https://github.com/sapier/animals_modpack right repos? 13:18 moltenbot iqualfragile's link: sapier/animals_modpack ? GitHub 13:19 sapier mesh support is already in next version I've just no "good" meshes to release 13:19 sapier basicaly yes but this is for stable and bugfix code only not for experimental 13:24 sapier off topic am i the only one having textures leak on minetest leave/joing game without quitting completely? 13:25 iqualfragile sapier: nope, i have those, too 13:26 sapier ok so I'm not crazy because there was a patch floating around that problem about a year ago 13:26 sapier add "fixing" to my sentence 13:27 iqualfragile yeah, but it was removed again 13:28 sapier I'd be glad to add them my first try to ise blender was horrible :-) 13:31 sapier great :-) I didn't add animation code because i didn't have any animatable model may i use this big to add it? 13:31 sapier http://ompldr.org/tZ3RvZQ << my try to create a sheep 13:32 iqualfragile blurp 13:32 Jeija https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/366 << My pull request for a list of servers 13:33 iqualfragile Jeija: post that to #minetest-dev 13:35 * OldCoder is resting 13:36 sapier looks promising 13:37 iqualfragile Jeija: maybee it would be better to add a new tab called "global" in wich all servers are listed 13:38 iqualfragile and only have your own local servers in that multyplyer-list 13:38 iqualfragile -.- 13:39 iqualfragile sapier: https://github.com/sapier/animals_modpack/blob/master/mobf/.project~ 13:40 sapier hmm shouldn't be there thanks I'll remove it 13:41 iqualfragile and there are some problems in the readme 13:41 iqualfragile the creeper was removed/renamed 13:41 iqualfragile and the vampire… yeah 13:41 sapier creeper was removed? 13:41 iqualfragile you might want to use the empty glass from vanessae s vessles 13:42 iqualfragile sapier: i think so, wasnt it? 13:42 sapier not by purpose 13:42 iqualfragile wasnt it renamed? 13:42 sapier no it's in there 13:42 iqualfragile ok 13:42 sapier animal_creeper 13:43 NekoGloop Meow 13:43 iqualfragile hi Neko 13:43 iqualfragile -added 3d Boombomb (was Creeper) 13:44 sdzen greetings neko 13:44 sapier you're right 13:44 NekoGloop well at least now it's got a different name. 13:44 sapier I should've renamed the folder too 13:44 NekoGloop I still dont like the idea of the game ripping through my crap. 13:44 iqualfragile sapier: where is the repos of the mobf-settings? 13:45 sapier not in there because by the time of last release mobf-settings depended on other non standard mods 13:45 iqualfragile ok 13:45 sapier I haven't checked if those features got to main minetest_game by now 13:45 iqualfragile (still waiting for the next release 13:46 sapier don't expect it before tonight :-) 13:46 iqualfragile oh… ok 13:46 sapier polishing and testing needs some time too 13:46 NekoGloop and dont expect jordan4ibanez's mod to ever be updated. 13:46 iqualfragile let me help you 13:48 sapier of course this release won't be a really stable release there where to many changes to expect flawless operations. But I'll still need until tonight for a proper releasable version ... sorry 13:49 Jordach merry christmad NekoGloop 13:49 Jordach christmas* 13:49 NekoGloop Yes, isnt the loss of a great modder a wonderful christmas present? 13:50 Jordach nope, hes an ass to some people 13:51 sdzen but not to others 13:51 NekoGloop He only returned the favor of the community. 13:51 NekoGloop So treat him like shit he treats you like shit. Simple. 13:52 NekoGloop DM, oerkki, rats. 13:52 NekoGloop No, i listed the entire list of mobs from 0.3.x version. 13:53 NekoGloop well pigs are a bit much 13:53 NekoGloop Why have a pig when we have cows? 13:53 NekoGloop Unless you want hogskin for footballs or something. 13:54 NekoGloop cows are OP? 13:54 NekoGloop Meat if you kill them, milk if they stay alive 13:54 NekoGloop You can only get so much meat from them. 13:55 sapier *lol* ride cows .... sounds funny ... and even possible 13:55 NekoGloop Well, at least i've figured out why mojang made cows nonexistant in their latest updates. 13:55 NekoGloop And made books out of leather and paper. 13:55 NekoGloop Which is the stupidest thing ever, and mojang should feel bad. 13:56 sapier I think getting leather from deer is much more interesting 13:56 sapier mob already has deer ;) 13:56 sapier mobf 13:56 iqualfragile an ugly deer 13:56 NekoGloop I think getting leather from just every animal it makes sense with is a good idea. 13:56 jojoa1997 can someone give me the github link to jordan4ipbanez's 3d animated npc 13:56 sapier :-) I'm a coder not a designer 13:57 iqualfragile github.com/jordan4ibanez ? 13:57 NekoGloop Cows, deer, pigs... 13:57 jojoa1997 hostile small people 13:57 sapier you meant "small piece of leather" ? @john_minetest 13:57 PilzAdam :-) I'm a coder not a designer <- thats one big problem of Minetest, we dont have designers 13:57 iqualfragile john_minetest: both 13:57 sapier true @pilzadam 13:57 iqualfragile PilzAdam: you need to differ: graphical artists or designes? 13:58 sapier I've posted a link to a try of mine to create a sheep 3d model ... I think the result is self speaking 13:58 iqualfragile and we do have enought graphical artists, take a look at the relam of 3d-mobs 13:58 * NekoGloop shows how bad notch is at game design right there. 13:59 NekoGloop What the actual fuck. I did not put a /me there. 14:00 iqualfragile NekoGloop: in the irc-protocol you need to put a special char at the end of the line, maybee you did that by accident? 14:00 iqualfragile -.- 14:06 thexyz the guy who made new design for website can be called designer, can't he? 14:07 thexyz prowseed, iirc 14:07 thexyz the one which was not accepted by c55 14:12 thexyz iqualfragile: so, 99% bot uptime, yeah? 14:12 iqualfragile i have shut it down like 10 minutes ago because i want to add a feature 14:14 thexyz what feature? 14:14 iqualfragile i wan to allow both syntaxes: !up minetest.org 30000 and minetest.org:3000 14:15 thexyz fine 14:15 thexyz and how about ipv6? 14:15 iqualfragile what exactly? 14:16 thexyz will it work (when we'll have it supported) 14:17 iqualfragile you mean for checking if hosts are up? 14:17 thexyz yep 14:17 iqualfragile jup 14:18 iqualfragile (well, why wouldnt it work? it uses standard-unix-tools) 14:23 thexyz ok, fine, let's assume it will work 14:30 thexyz minetest.net is fucking down again 14:39 thexyz http://www.handheld-linux.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04 14:40 thexyz (cast marktraceur) 14:42 PilzAdam *** longjmp causes uninitialized stack frame ***: /home/adam/Minetest/minetest/bin/minetest terminated 14:42 PilzAdam anyone knows what that means? 14:43 thexyz seems to be curl-related 14:43 thexyz (as google thinks) 14:43 thexyz http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9191668/error-longjmp-causes-uninitialized-stack-frame 14:43 PilzAdam you need a backtrace? 14:43 sapier seems assembler is still alive ;-) 14:44 thexyz how can it be non-alive? 14:44 thexyz PilzAdam: what MT version causes this? 14:44 PilzAdam https://gist.github.com/999fd7c9df721d57ce4a 14:45 PilzAdam Jeija's serverlist 14:45 PilzAdam but it was ingame 14:46 PilzAdam so I guess its not his fault 14:46 thexyz well, that's definetly a curl issue 14:46 thexyz >/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcurl-gnutls.so.4(+0x9b25)[0x7f2c24509b25] 14:46 iqualfragile my server has curl-support enabled 14:46 PilzAdam I played several minutes on iqualfragile's server 14:47 thexyz hm.. the solution may be curl_easy_setopt(curl, CURLOPT_NOSIGNAL, 1) 14:48 iqualfragile btw: i think the boat looks to round 14:49 PilzAdam yea, I dont really like the boat model 14:51 markveidemanis i have to ask a technic expert, so can they plz PM me 14:51 iqualfragile RealBadAngel: markveidemanis has a question 14:52 markveidemanis ok fair enough 14:52 markveidemanis RealBadAngel: ccould you go on the Zegathon server to help me with wiring and machines 14:56 markveidemanis llp 14:56 Doc22 hey Oldcoder 14:56 markveidemanis RBA 14:56 Doc22 i got my new computer 14:56 Doc22 :) 14:56 Doc22 :) 14:56 Doc22 im so happy 14:56 Doc22 it runs like lightning 14:56 PilzAdam specs? 14:56 Doc22 and I can play games that i couldnt before 14:56 Doc22 ok 14:56 Doc22 asus sabertooth x79 motherboard 14:57 markveidemanis Ghz? 14:57 Doc22 intel 1-7 3820 processor 3.2 ghz 14:57 Doc22 i-7* 14:57 markveidemanis holy shi... 14:57 markveidemanis haha i got 1.6 14:57 Doc22 8gb of 1866mhz ram 14:57 PilzAdam what generation is the core? 14:57 Doc22 it has 4 cores 14:57 Doc22 idk what gen 14:58 thexyz + multithreading? 14:58 markveidemanis thats faster than apple imac, i think 14:58 Doc22 ikr 14:58 Doc22 i got an awesome cooler 14:58 thexyz oops, hyper-threading 14:58 Doc22 and the processor usage never goes above 1-% 14:58 Doc22 10%* 14:58 Doc22 mostly around 1% usage 14:58 Doc22 even with multitasking 14:58 Doc22 i custom built this 14:59 Doc22 ordered everything from amazon 14:59 markveidemanis can you run my minetest server with ur fast pc to see how it performs? 14:59 PilzAdam I have 8 cores @ 2.93 GHz 14:59 Doc22 sure 14:59 Doc22 awesome 14:59 iqualfragile PilzAdam: me too 14:59 Doc22 the slot is lga201 14:59 Doc22 lga2011* 14:59 PilzAdam i7 first generation 14:59 iqualfragile well, im not shure about the 2.93 ghz 15:00 Doc22 so when the new ivy bridge processors come out 15:00 Doc22 i can use them 15:00 markveidemanis meh 15:00 Doc22 i want to see how the 3-d transistors work 15:00 iqualfragile Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5405 @ 2.00GHz 15:01 Doc22 @markveidemanis 15:01 PilzAdam Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 870 @ 2.93 GHz 15:01 Doc22 i will run your server for test 15:01 Doc22 but not permanently 15:02 Doc22 also I chose to use a 120gb ssd 15:02 Doc22 they are much faster 15:03 Doc22 boots up in like 10 seconds 15:03 thexyz Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz (server) 15:03 PilzAdam Doc22, wich OS? 15:03 Doc22 win 7 15:03 Doc22 im kinda mixed between gaming 15:03 Doc22 and programming 15:03 PilzAdam dual boot 15:03 thexyz linux can boot in ~3 seconds from ssd, iirc 15:03 Doc22 so i use windows 15:04 Doc22 i only use it because of the games that are for windows 15:04 thexyz http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTEwMjc 15:04 moltenbot thexyz's link: [Phoronix] A Two-Second Boot Time With systemd 15:04 Doc22 otherwise i would use linux 15:04 Doc22 also im used to windows. 15:04 Doc22 its "what i grew up on" 15:04 Doc22 i learned it when i was little 15:04 Doc22 i like windows 15:05 iqualfragile thexyz: linux can boot in 5 sec from hdd 15:06 NakedFury merry christmas minetest 15:06 thexyz iqualfragile: with X and some DE? 15:06 iqualfragile jup 15:06 iqualfragile was on phoronix some while ago 15:06 Doc22 i tried ubuntu when i was trying to learn about servers 15:06 PilzAdam iqualfragile, and with BIOS? 15:06 Doc22 i had sooo much trouble installing it 15:07 PilzAdam Doc22, wubi? 15:07 iqualfragile PilzAdam: thats a different story 15:07 Doc22 no writing iso to a cd 15:07 iqualfragile cd… 15:07 iqualfragile use usb-sticks 15:07 Doc22 i tried doing that too 15:07 iqualfragile i usualy get my system installed in less then 7 minutes using an usb-stick 15:08 thexyz NakedFury: merry grav-mass 15:10 Doc22 hmm 15:10 Doc22 i had a lot of trouble 15:10 iqualfragile http://www.linuxliveusb.com/ 15:11 Doc22 i downloaded it several times (many hours...), then tried installing it 15:11 Doc22 it was mainly during boot up 15:11 Doc22 it wont load grub 15:11 Doc22 unless i change some settings 15:11 Doc22 even then it wont boot linux 15:12 Doc22 its probably because that was an old computer with out of date bios 15:12 Doc22 etc 15:32 Doc22 ugh 15:33 Doc22 stupid "restart now for windows updates?" button 15:33 Doc22 accidentally pressed restart now 15:33 Zeg9 You use windows ? 15:33 Doc22 yes 15:33 Doc22 just for the gamez 15:33 Zeg9 Hi 15:33 Zeg9 btw 15:33 Doc22 im mixed between programmer and gamer 15:33 Doc22 i like windows because it is also what I am used to 15:34 Doc22 i dont have to always ask (why cant i do that) 15:34 Doc22 anyway 15:34 Zeg9 I hope it isn't 8 15:34 Doc22 i need to learn more about security 15:34 Doc22 nope 15:34 Doc22 i stick with 7 15:34 Doc22 i hear that its unstable 15:34 Doc22 8 15:35 Doc22 and that they are making it like mac 15:35 Doc22 more or less 15:35 Zeg9 They are making it even more unusable 15:35 Doc22 7 is as far as i will go 15:35 Doc22 for now 15:35 Doc22 i grew up on xp 15:35 Doc22 vista sucked 15:35 Doc22 but 7 is good 15:36 Doc22 xp was also good 15:36 Doc22 is minetest.net down? 15:37 Doc22 YUS WOT action nauw 15:37 Doc22 if anyone has world of tanks 15:37 Doc22 im doc44 15:37 Doc22 gtg 15:56 iqualfragile !ping minetest.net 15:56 moltenbot host minetest.net DOWN 15:57 iqualfragile celeron55: whats up? 15:57 mauvebic damn forums are down 15:57 mauvebic oh well, enjoy http://www.zimg.eu/i/784909190 15:58 celeron55 "what's up?" "well, at least not minetest.net" 15:58 iqualfragile :D 15:58 iqualfragile whats the problem about minetes.net 15:58 iqualfragile s/minetes.net/minetest.net 15:59 iqualfragile celeron55: there is a bug about occlusion: sometimes minetest does not draw chunks of blocks i would be able to see 16:02 celeron55 it's very minor 16:02 celeron55 and not a bug 16:02 celeron55 it's because of speed 16:03 celeron55 if it perfectly tested occlusions, it could just as well just draw everything instead of culling them 16:03 iqualfragile no, its not 16:04 artru99 is this valable anymore: 16:04 artru99 http://1.1.1.5/bmi/www.mesecons.net/crafts/silicon.png 16:04 artru99 ? 16:08 artru99 ??????? 16:09 iqualfragile ühm… 16:09 iqualfragile 1.1.1.5? 16:10 artru99 from mesecon.tk 16:10 artru99 *mesecons.tk 16:10 artru99 the silicon 16:10 iqualfragile !ping mesecons.net 16:10 moltenbot 64 bytes from 78.46.181.14: icmp_req=1 ttl=57 time=8.14 ms 16:10 iqualfragile !ping mesecons.tk 16:10 moltenbot host mesecons.tk DOWN 16:10 iqualfragile see, no 1.1.1.5 16:11 * Jordach lazes around 16:14 artru99 nesecons.tk is up 16:14 artru99 i can see it 16:14 Jordach nese? is that some form of negative mese 16:14 mauvebic hmm https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/issues/347 this happens to me on linux too while running chromium 16:14 moltenbot mauvebic's link: GPU Memory Fragments. ? Issue #347 ? celeron55/minetest ? GitHub 16:15 mauvebic and only with the nvidia tower 16:16 Jordach yeah, nvidia chips seem affected by this 16:16 mauvebic though i think its because they recently fixed the hardware acceleration for flash player (which didn't previously work) 16:17 mauvebic if anyone remembers those purple-tinted youtube vids on nvidia gpus :p 16:17 iqualfragile nah, its not purple-tinted 16:17 iqualfragile the colours blue and red are exchanged 16:18 mauvebic welll now hardware accel works and my inventory tiles are frequently replaced by snaps of my browser windows :P could be coincidence tho 16:20 artur99 hi 16:20 iqualfragile hi artur99 16:20 artur99 i cant craft this: 16:21 artur99 http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/7/25148309.png 16:21 artur99 why? 16:21 artur99 same link: 16:21 artur99 http://www.mesecons.net/items/solarpanel.php 16:21 moltenbot artur99's link: mesecons 16:23 artur99 and i cant craft this too: 16:23 artur99 http://www.mesecons.net/items/silicon.php 16:23 moltenbot artur99's link: mesecons 16:28 Jordach mauvebic, is the card series geforce/ 16:29 mauvebic geforce 210 i think? 16:29 mauvebic i still have the box lemme go check 16:29 Jordach mauvebic, it might just be on geforce cards 16:29 mauvebic ugh my wife hid it somewhere lol 16:29 mauvebic but yeah its a geforce 16:29 mauvebic bought a year ago now 16:30 Jordach so it might just be geforce cards 16:31 mauvebic yep GeForce 210 16:31 mauvebic driver version 304.64 16:32 Jordach so its a nvidia card being the issue 16:32 Jordach of the series geforce 16:33 mauvebic + it only happens when chromium is running? 16:33 Jordach celeron55, my issue on c55/minetest #347 seems to be related to the running of a hardware accelerated browser and the running of a minetest binary on nvidia geforce series cards 16:35 mauvebic i wonder what happens if i disable hard.accel. on the flash player 16:36 Kacey hello and merry christmas 16:36 Kacey O:-) 16:39 Zeg9 Jordach, nvidia geforce series -> nvidia graphic card 16:39 Zeg9 Jordach, nvidia geforce series -> nvidia graphic cards* 16:39 Jordach Zeg9, it only happens on this series 16:40 mauvebic feel free to add my details to the bugreport, i dont have/want a github acct. lol 16:40 Zeg9 Jordach, I mean that all nvidia cards are called geforce 16:42 Kacey i have installed xubunu on my laptop 16:43 Kacey hallo 16:44 Zeg9 Hi 16:44 Kacey i gave myself the gift of xubuntu 16:45 Zeg9 Free and great gift 16:45 Kacey yes it is 16:45 Kacey installing WINE and VanessaE are you on? 16:46 VanessaE I *just* walked in 16:46 Kacey lol 16:47 PilzAdam hi VanessaE 16:47 VanessaE your timing is impeccable 16:47 VanessaE PilzAdam: ahh there you are. I have work for you ;) 16:47 VanessaE https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/pull/82 16:47 VanessaE also good morning all. 16:48 Kacey merry christmas 16:48 VanessaE same to you Kacey 16:48 Kacey i gave myself the gift of xubuntu 16:50 thexyz VanessaE: why are there 3 closed and 1 open pull request for that thing? 16:50 VanessaE thexyz: because I kept changing my mind and also screwing up :-) 16:51 thexyz why didnt't you just change existing pull request? 16:51 VanessaE and because certain individuals don't like multiple commits per request. 16:51 VanessaE I don't know how to do that. Still learning git. 16:51 VanessaE :) 16:51 thexyz git rebase 16:51 thexyz git push --force 16:51 thexyz that's all you need 16:52 VanessaE I'll remember that for the future 16:52 artur99 i cant craft this http://www.mesecons.net/items/silicon.php 16:52 moltenbot artur99's link: mesecons 16:52 artur99 why? 16:54 VanessaE artur99: works for me? 16:54 VanessaE (just checked with a recent git pull of mesecons) 16:55 VanessaE of course, I have homedecor installed too, which I know will produce silicon if mesecons won't. 16:59 artur99 aha 16:59 artur99 and there is planks and steel ingout? 16:59 VanessaE sand + steel 16:59 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, where do I get your latest tree code in c++? 17:00 VanessaE PilzAdam: that pull request should stop all the bitching from the luddites :-) 17:02 PilzAdam VanessaE, ask me in a few days or so 17:02 VanessaE this should be RBA's trees + mapgen tweaks: http://realbadangel.pl/mapgen.zip 17:03 VanessaE (it's the whole of minetest, but it isn't current with 0.4.4 git, so be sure you also run the client that gets built with it when testing) 17:03 VanessaE (It doesn't recognize the noclip priv) 17:04 Kacey im working on my new mod so ping if you need me 17:09 Kacey ok back 17:17 * Kacey lagetest 17:17 Kacey lagtest* 17:20 marktraceur Lugetest! 17:21 Kacey lol 17:22 Kacey need to finish the crafting recipes and textures and then i can upload it 17:23 Kacey on the time mod* 17:26 sapier1 @iqualfragile I've just updated github code with new mobf version for testing purposes 17:26 iqualfragile k thx 17:30 PilzAdam cutting down one of RealBadAngel's L-System trees: 2 in-game days (without night), nearly 1 steel axe, 230 tree nodes, 397 leave blocks, 234 saplings 17:30 PilzAdam and a lot of fun 17:31 iqualfragile yeah, i think those are a bit too big… 17:31 iqualfragile sapier1: whats the chnges? 17:32 PilzAdam omg, FIRE!!! 17:32 sapier1 1.9.0 17:33 sapier1 lots of changes :-) 17:33 PilzAdam http://www.zimg.eu/i/2231242482 17:33 PilzAdam with fire: 1 fire, 2 saplings 17:33 PilzAdam and only 1 minute 17:34 sapier1 two major things changed : 1) state support for mobs 2) complete rewrite of callback handling (on_step as well as on_punch) 17:34 sapier1 are that growing_trees @pilzadam? 17:35 PilzAdam no, RBA's L-System trees 17:35 mauvebic the boats mod, does the screen shake/vibrate like when i drive ufos? 17:35 sapier1 hmm look great 17:36 * VanessaE is worn out now 17:37 JesseH Any mods that change gameplay a lot? 17:38 PilzAdam creative ;-) 17:38 mauvebic no_mapgen 17:38 thexyz JesseH: realtest 17:38 PilzAdam maybe farming 17:39 PilzAdam thexyz, thats not a mod 17:39 thexyz (it's not a mod but modpack though) 17:39 Kacey mesecons 17:40 thexyz ughh, not modpack, but a game 17:40 marktraceur Anyone know how to disable the "type /join" message that happens with the IRC mod if nobody was on for some time? The IRC bot is always in my channel, but the server sometimes annoys people with the message. 17:41 JesseH thexyz, neat 17:42 VanessaE JesseH: my custom game rather changes game play a bit 17:42 VanessaE mostly because of the presence of the Technic and Unified Inventory mods. 17:42 markveidemanis my framerate is terrible 17:42 VanessaE (e.g. creative mode 17:42 VanessaE ) 17:42 Kacey where can i download the irc mod? 17:42 markveidemanis from the internet 17:43 markveidemanis or an interweb 17:44 marktraceur Kacey: http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3905 17:44 marktraceur Kacey: Suggest that you not use this channel to test it :) 17:44 Kacey aaw ok 17:46 Jakssoul Hello everyone. 17:46 Kacey hello 17:46 Kacey brb 17:46 Jakssoul How's it going? 17:47 Jakssoul Oh, have fun. 17:47 markveidemanis how to improve FPS? 17:47 Jakssoul Turn of Shaders. Made it SOOO much better for me. 17:47 markveidemanis shaders are off 17:48 Jakssoul How much RAM do you have? 17:48 Jakssoul I'm using a little crappy netbook with 512MB RAM and get 20+ FPS generally. 17:48 Jakssoul I think that should be enough for just about anyone. 17:51 Kacey back 17:51 Kacey having a horrible internet 17:53 Kacey cdan anyone give me the download link? 17:53 Kacey can* 17:56 Kacey hello? 17:57 JesseH Kacey, The guy who wrote it isn't on right now. 17:57 JesseH Let me see if I can find the link. 17:57 Kacey kaeza wrote it didnt he? 17:58 JesseH Correct. 17:59 JesseH Kacey, https://github.com/kaeza/minetest-irc 17:59 moltenbot JesseH's link: kaeza/minetest-irc ? GitHub 17:59 JesseH Clone that, or download as a zip or whatever. 18:02 Kacey Plese change the "cp -R irc" to fit your install of minetest. 18:02 Kacey what does this mean? 18:03 JesseH I am new to minetest, and it seems like a minetest error. Therefore I cannot help you. 18:03 Kacey OldCoder? Vanesssa 18:04 Kacey either of you know? 18:09 VanessaE hm, what? 18:09 VanessaE *looks* 18:09 RealBadAngel hi all 18:09 VanessaE hrm, well he's gone for now I guess 18:09 VanessaE hey RBA. 18:10 Jordach RealBadAngel, wassup 18:10 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, want latest trees? 18:10 PilzAdam sure 18:10 PilzAdam or are the one VanessaE gave me the latest? 18:10 RealBadAngel Jordach: still in the woods, takin care of trees ;) 18:10 Jordach burning them down 18:10 RealBadAngel the latest one surely im the only one to have it :) 18:11 sokomine merry christmas to all i havn't seen yet :-) 18:11 VanessaE haha 18:11 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, c++ files: realbadangel.pl/mapgen.zip 18:12 sokomine ah. are the advanced trees coming to the game? 18:12 RealBadAngel you have to have in mods lua version too (for textures) 18:12 RealBadAngel and fix one line in default mapgen.lua 18:13 RealBadAngel line #10 to: 18:13 RealBadAngel minetest.register_alias("mapgen_leaves", "treegen:birch_leaves") 18:14 RealBadAngel btw im movin now all tree related stuff to separate c and h files 18:15 sapier1 can someone tell me what code is expected to be in lua and what is allowed in c++? I thought celeron didn't want many game specific code parts in c++? 18:15 RealBadAngel sapier1, speed factor 18:15 RealBadAngel you can compare with trees speed of the very same code 18:16 RealBadAngel some things just cannot be done in LUA 18:16 sapier1 not really? most of the speed problems mobf has could be fixed in c++ easyly but celeron told me he didn't want mobs in c++ 18:16 sokomine if so many experienced players are online...maybe you do have any ideas how i can get right-click on npc/mob to display a formspec menu? i know that it does require changes in the code. i could insert suitable data structures analog to the ones players and nodes use. but i'm not sure if and how updates to the data of lua objects like npc will be transmitted from server to client? 18:16 sokomine oh :-) and sapier is on as well. fine :-) 18:17 * sokomine hopes for 3d-animals :-) 18:17 RealBadAngel sapier1 they should be done in c++ 18:17 Kacey i am building CMake 18:17 RealBadAngel as well as mesecons core and some other stuff 18:17 VanessaE PilzAdam: I'm afraid "a few days" just won't do - people are bitching too loudly about the change, this needs put through right away. 18:18 sapier1 you're kidding I've been writing in lua only because celeron said mobs not in c++ and now you tell me they'd be added in c++? is this only your oppinion or did celeron change minds? 18:19 VanessaE Lua is a great idea for modding but it's being over/misused - some stuff just cannot be adequately done without some help from C++ 18:20 JesseH I imagine, nothing Lua wise can be done without the correct c++ bindings, yes/ 18:21 sokomine that's right and one of the reasons there was no way to move the player around before the models where introduced (apart from beaming the player around) 18:22 JesseH Also, what is happeneing that you have to worry about Lua's speed? 18:22 sokomine pilzadam is very experienced at finding ways to get around some limitations of the lua interface. but there are still limits what can be done 18:22 sapier1 I've already added moving player support to minetest a year ago, noone was interested 18:23 sokomine maybe that was at a time celeron had less time/intrest in the game? in recent weeks, quite a lot has improved 18:24 sapier1 I'm glad things get better 18:25 sokomine the new models are great. the 3d-player is much better to look at than that scary 2d-shape that's so flat from the side. it still has some bugs but i think it's worth it 18:25 RealBadAngel sapier1, thats my opinion 18:25 JesseH I am still curious of the problem with speed. 18:26 RealBadAngel but if mobs are supposed to EVER work in mt, it has to be done in c++ 18:26 RealBadAngel they can be controlled from lua, but all the logic shall be in the engine 18:26 JesseH The Lua bindings can be made, so us higher level folks can implement things as well. 18:26 sapier1 did you ever try mobf? mobs do work in lua 18:27 sapier1 there's still one major bug in c++ NOT related to mobs making mobs nearly unusable 18:27 VanessaE sapier1: well a lot of people say MOBF lags servers, so... 18:27 VanessaE what's that bug? 18:27 RealBadAngel all the stuff that relies on heavy calculation will suffer 18:28 sapier1 as soon as there's an accelerated entity minetest may enter a runaway performance glitch 18:28 VanessaE huh. 18:28 RealBadAngel entities shall be moved to client side 18:28 sapier1 there's next to no heavy calculation for basic mob features (at least if you do it right) 18:28 VanessaE wonder if that's what's causing my server issues - there's a lot of entities used there in the form of carts, boats, UFOs 18:29 sokomine hm :-) they do work fine. i had only few problems with the last version of mobf. crashes where very rare (most of the time the client crashes for other reasons); and when the mobs changed their spawning it helped a lot. one remaining problem is that the mobs once started disappearing for no apparent reason 18:29 RealBadAngel without it nothin related to animation wont run good 18:29 sapier1 they are! if you use acceleration movement is smooth and done by client 18:29 JesseH mob logic should be able to be done with Lua and work fine. 18:29 sapier1 but as told before if using acceleratin minetest has a bad bug 18:29 VanessaE sapier1: can you elaborate further? 18:30 RealBadAngel which is? 18:30 VanessaE sapier1: can you explain the conditions under which this bug is produced? Test cases? Methodology? 18:30 VanessaE I really wanna know. 18:30 sapier1 of course, theres a bugentry too by the way 18:31 sapier1 this bug occurs as soon as an entity is accelerated with a slightly larger value ... 10 for example 18:31 sapier1 in minetests movement calculation loop minetest does collision detection 18:32 sapier1 if anything is accelerated minetest checks if there is any colliding object between old position and new position 18:32 sapier1 if you have accelerated objects this may be lots of blocks to check -> loop time increases --> even more blocks need to be checked next time 18:33 mauvebic so, velocity 18:33 mauvebic better? 18:33 iqualfragile can somebody summarize the last bits of discussion? 18:33 mauvebic or accel < 10 ? 18:33 VanessaE iqualfragile: entities are busted. 18:33 VanessaE :) 18:33 iqualfragile busted? in how far busted? 18:33 sokomine how about jumping? that was the only way to accelerate players for some time (the trampolines) 18:33 mauvebic theyre not busted 18:33 Kacey can anyone help me compile minetest-irc? 18:34 sapier1 it's no matter if it's 10 or 5 or 100 you need only one performance lag to enter this runaway state 18:34 mauvebic a year ago five entities would lag my server, now, takes 20 :P 18:34 VanessaE Kacey: better to wait till later tonight, maybe in 6-7 hours kaeza should be here then 18:34 JesseH I am at this point, wondering how entities are handled. 18:34 JesseH 20, lags a server??? 18:34 iqualfragile jup 18:34 sapier1 20 moving entities 18:34 JesseH Still. 18:35 * Kacey is going to go bash his head against a wall 18:35 sapier1 the faster they move the worse the lag 18:35 sokomine hm, i had about 100 mobs in one fenced-off area and that was causing hardly any performace drops at all. they didn't constantly drop, drown and die thanks to the fence 18:35 VanessaE sapier1: does "moving" also include dropped entities that just sit there spinning? 18:35 JesseH That must be some pretty calculation heavy math going on. 18:35 VanessaE or does it have to be X/Y/Z movement? 18:35 JesseH movement** not math 18:35 RealBadAngel anybody seen a vid with 1k moving entities? 18:35 iqualfragile and by laggin he mean healy lagging, it means that the server wont even send new chunks to players 18:35 sapier1 if those dropped entities do have acceleration set might be too 18:36 sapier1 but obviously collision detection will finish soon on objects at ground 18:36 JesseH So it's, network heavy stuff. 18:36 iqualfragile na, the server is just singlethreaded 18:36 RealBadAngel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Fv_HtzPLg 18:36 moltenbot RealBadAngel's link: Stress test continues - YouTube 18:37 iqualfragile and if a mod uses all the calculation-captabilities to search for a way to move or whatever there is nothing left for the other tasks 18:37 JesseH iqualfragile, figured 18:37 JesseH It has to be how its all handles, not the code that works the logic itself. 18:37 JesseH engine level stuff 18:37 NakedFury wow RBA lots of moving stuff 18:37 NakedFury and in both directions 18:37 * Kacey is wanting to bind a port to a false adress and see what happens 18:37 sapier1 there's a simple solution for this problem ... Just add a top speed limit 18:38 iqualfragile NakedFury: that vid is kindof old, you know… 18:38 JesseH I am just wondering why I lag so bad on every server I get on. 18:38 JesseH Not usual 18:38 NakedFury how did you set the direction? and yes there should be a top speed dropping limit 18:38 RealBadAngel check the technic code 18:38 Kacey press alt+f4 JesseH 18:38 RealBadAngel its all there 18:38 iqualfragile RealBadAngel: the trees look great, maybee a bit more variety and the are perfect 18:39 NakedFury I mean in the game 18:39 iqualfragile (height for example) 18:39 JesseH Kacey, what. 18:39 NakedFury I actually like this new trees, bit more realistic when comparing the height of the character 18:39 Kacey to fix the lag press alt+f4 18:39 RealBadAngel NakedFury, check injector.lua 18:39 RealBadAngel all the entities code is there 18:40 JesseH Kacey, go into terminal and type "rm *". 18:40 Kacey rba, can things go from a pneumatic tube into a gold chest? 18:40 NakedFury RealBadNAngel I mean inside the game how do I tell the direction they go, so maybe metals go one way and the other another 18:40 VanessaE RealBadAngel: I still say you need to thin out the leaves - change your axioms/rules to give the trees more internal definition 18:40 VanessaE RealBadAngel: for the sake of impressing c55 if nothing else ;) 18:41 RealBadAngel i need to add more commands for the turtle to allow such things 18:41 NakedFury leafs should always drop even when you "mine" them 18:41 RealBadAngel and even then some1 has to write such tree in L-systems 18:43 sapier1 does anyone know when forums are expected to be online again? 18:43 VanessaE no idea but c55 already knows they're down. 18:43 iqualfragile no, not even celeron55 said anything about it 18:43 RealBadAngel NakedFury, i will collect all sources and providers connected, confront them, then find a path connecting source and a provider 18:43 RealBadAngel item will just follow the path 18:44 VanessaE [12-25 10:52] crap, where is minetest.net once again 18:44 VanessaE in -dev. 18:48 VanessaE Kacey: there he is. :-) 18:48 kaeza hey hey V 18:48 VanessaE kaeza: it's all your fault. 18:48 VanessaE :-) 18:48 VanessaE hi :-) 18:48 kaeza lolwut 18:48 Kacey ooh hai 18:49 kaeza hi Kacey 18:49 Kacey i need to compile minetest-irc 18:49 kaeza what happened? 18:49 kaeza am I goping to jail? :P 18:49 kaeza ah 18:50 kaeza do you have CMake already installed? 18:50 Kacey i think so yes 18:51 kaeza then cd ; cmake . && make && make pack_mod 18:52 kaeza on noes!! teh forumz r down!! 18:53 Kacey thank you 18:54 kaeza Kacey: was that the problem you were having? 18:54 Kacey there is no bin folder 18:54 Kacey ooh duh 18:54 Kacey i need to compile now 18:54 kaeza nope 18:54 kaeza there is no bin folder 18:55 kaeza it should create an `irc' directory after you do "make "pack_mod" 18:55 Kacey so after doing that one line it is done? 18:55 kaeza yup 18:55 kaeza if you got no errors, yes 18:55 Kacey take the irc folder and put it in the mods folder? 18:55 kaeza exactly 18:56 kaeza bbiab 18:57 Kacey error in init.lua 18:59 Kacey [C]: in function 'require' 19:00 Kacey maybe... 19:09 OldCoder Hi 19:10 OldCoder sokomine, there are 3D animals in the works 19:10 sokomine hi oldcoder 19:10 OldCoder An improved pig is coming I think 19:10 OldCoder Howdy 19:10 sokomine yes, i saw sapier online and am talking with him :-) 19:10 OldCoder Kacey, you had a question about copies? 19:10 Kacey naw i got it 19:10 OldCoder All right 19:10 OldCoder Naw right 19:10 Kacey but i need kaeza 19:11 sokomine hm. concerning pigs...it would be nice if they where wild pigs. those look diffrent than the domesticated version. they could be a bit aggressive and stealing stuff the player planted (corn, carrots, ...) and try to chase players a way. perhaps a bit like the wolf 19:15 OldCoder sokomine, that sounds fun 19:15 OldCoder Boars are not bores :P 19:15 Kacey hello m13 19:15 M13_ I got computer back 19:15 OldCoder sokomine wishes wild boars 19:15 Kacey i have xubuntu 19:15 M13_ :-) 19:15 OldCoder M13_, merry xmas 19:15 M13_ thnx, you too 19:15 M13_ OldCoder, please pm 19:16 sdzen merry something to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUKku3MhCPs 19:16 moltenbot sdzen's link: Merry Something To You - YouTube 19:16 Kacey kaeza i have a problem 19:17 sokomine yes :-) and more animals! and on all servers :-)))) 19:18 * Kacey is going to go bash his head against a wall 19:19 PilzAdam gtg; bye 19:20 Kacey ooh wait i needed PilzAdam lol 19:25 kaeza back 19:25 kaeza what problem Kacey? 19:26 kaeza hi OldCoder 19:26 Kacey idk i cannot find it in debug.txt 19:26 Kacey but it cannot run init.lua 19:27 kaeza Kacey: do something: delete debug.txt, start the game, and when the error appears, quit the game, and upload your debug.txt 19:27 Kacey k in a minute 19:33 kaeza are the forums down? 19:34 sokomine i have a strange bug recently with my linux desktop...klicking on a window (especially minetest) doesn't update it anymore. only clicking and then forcing some new images helps...strange 19:35 kaeza sokomine: that happened to me with bugged gfx drivers 19:35 kaeza are you using latest drivers for your card 19:35 kaeza ? 19:38 Kacey kaeza can i dcc it to you 19:38 kaeza yes 19:39 OldCoder Hi 19:39 Kacey did you get it? 19:39 kaeza Kacey: got it 19:39 sokomine it ought to be a relatively recent driver, yes 19:41 kaeza Kacey: may I PM? 19:41 Kacey sure 19:46 sokomine it's a 4.5 years old onboard nvidia chipset. hard to tell what's going wrong there. maybe a memory leak somewhere? 19:47 * Kacey is liking xubuntu 19:51 kaeza sokomine: I had problems with older PCI NVidia cards on Linux 19:52 Kacey how to i run a server on xubuntu for minetest 19:54 sokomine same as elsewhere i think? start the server with the right params? 19:54 Kacey how do i create the server 19:54 Kacey like the server program 19:54 sokomine bin/minetestserver --help 19:55 Kacey i dont have minetestserver 19:55 sokomine you have to supply the world it ought to use. help shows you the parameters. the worlds can even be listed 19:55 sokomine you need that. it's the very server 19:55 sokomine if you compiled it yourshelf it ought to rest in the bin/ folder next to the minetest-program (the client) 19:56 Kacey i got a batch file 19:59 Kacey hey kaeza 19:59 sokomine did you compile it yourshelf or did you get a package for your distribution? 20:00 sokomine to my knowledge the minetestserver is started automaticly when you run the client and start a singleplayer game. thus you have to have it somewhere 20:01 sapier1 no not quite it may be within minetest binary 20:01 Kacey kaeza 20:02 Kacey i am trying to test an irc client so anyone want to join go to 67.162.156.91 port 30000 20:02 sapier1 it is within minetest so if you disabled server on build you won't get a separate binary ... maybe it even won't be included in minetest client in this case but thats a guess 20:02 * OldCoder will return in a little while 20:02 sokomine oh? ok. didn't know that 20:03 OldCoder sapier1, I have not reviewed scrollback. Is your mod or modset reasonable for the CPU and RAM on my worlds? 20:03 kaeza back 20:03 kaeza Kacey? 20:04 sokomine hm. mobs on oldcoders worlds would be great :-) and oldcoder is online enough to take care of the server should anything go wrong 20:04 Kacey please come test my server 20:04 * sokomine grabs a few cows and sheep and leads them to calinous world on oldcoders server 20:05 kaeza Kacey: IP? 20:05 Kacey 67.162.156.91 port 30000 20:06 sapier1 latest 1.9.0 version is not ready for production use I've done lots of code rewriting so for latest version you'd better wait until 2.0 ... 1.4.6 is quite stable but has some performance issues with ALL MOBS enabled sheep cow chicken and deer most likely will work for other animals you may need to try ... but be warned automatic removal of disabled mobs is a feature added in new versions 20:06 kaeza Kacey: connecting :) 20:07 sapier1 for testing servers 1.9.0 should be fine 20:10 * VanessaE wanders back in panting and heaving and sweaty and dusty. 20:10 VanessaE ever torn out a flight of stairs? 20:10 * VanessaE <---- this is what it looks like. 20:12 Jordach VanessaE, use the admin pick. much faster. 20:13 VanessaE I guess what the IRL equivalent of that would be a Sawzall, which I didn't have permission to use :-) 20:13 VanessaE (the contractor left all his tools and stuff here so he can continue after the holidays) 20:14 NakedFury next time steal a truck from a construction site 20:14 VanessaE so I did it all with a 4kg sledge and a crowbar :-) 20:14 kaeza VanessaE: wish there was worldedit IRL... 20:14 VanessaE kaeza: +100000000000 20:15 Jordach kaeza, id do this to so many people IRL it would be ridiculous 20:15 Jordach and perhaps cover mexico in lava. 20:15 Jordach 20:15 Jordach (id probably be banned from life..._ 20:15 Jordach ) 20:15 STHGOM brb 20:18 kaeza maybe, there are too many mobs in Mexico 20:19 kaeza well... everywhere 20:19 kaeza g*d planned to do a server restart on dec 21st, but he was a bit lazy :P 20:21 VanessaE naw, he just needs to rebuild his client and ban a few million players, the server's been running fine despite a fuckton of griefing :-) 20:22 VanessaE problem is some parts of the map are showing signs of corruption 20:26 kaeza heh also it seems europe had about 1492 years of lag; the american chunks weren't getting to those parts 20:27 STHGOM Hello! 20:28 markveidemanis HELLO! 20:28 iqualfragile hi 20:28 VanessaE hi 20:28 markveidemanis HI 20:28 markveidemanis hello? 20:29 sokomine hm :) people griefing rl might be strange. imagine thiefs running away with a cubic meter of stone :-) 20:29 markveidemanis HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 20:29 VanessaE heh 20:29 markveidemanis heh = HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH 20:30 markveidemanis "=" = merry christmas 20:30 markveidemanis ============================ 20:30 sokomine to you as well :-) 20:30 markveidemanis and a happy new year for 2014 20:31 markveidemanis the whole "13" thing is unlucky 20:31 markveidemanis lets just skip it 20:31 Kacey lol /time 2014 20:32 markveidemanis HAHHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHH 20:32 markveidemanis *cough 20:33 markveidemanis *ATCHOOO KOOP 20:33 Kacey lol instead of /clearobjects, /clearretards 20:34 markveidemanis HAHAHAHAHAHA 20:34 Kacey yes 20:34 markveidemanis it is in minecraft 20:34 Kacey edit fontlucidia.png 20:34 markveidemanis its white, white is a colour 20:35 iqualfragile nope, white and black are no colours 20:35 markveidemanis are forums down 20:35 Kacey yes 20:35 markveidemanis Y 20:35 Kacey idk 20:35 markveidemanis again... 20:36 markveidemanis https://github.com/Zeg9 20:36 kaeza john_minetest: first, white *is* a color; second, the correct question would be "can you have multi-colored text in MT chat?", and third, it would be awesome to see this implemented 20:36 markveidemanis hahahahahahahahahahhhhhh 20:36 markveidemanis [20:33] lol instead of /clearobjects, /clearretards 20:36 Kacey just change fontlucidia.png to the color you want 20:36 kaeza Kacey: that does not work 20:36 markveidemanis [20:36] [20:33] lol instead of /clearobjects, /clearretards <== LOL repost 20:36 Kacey i did it once 20:37 kaeza if you change font to say yellow you still have single-colored text 20:37 * markveidemanis <== Awesome Guy 20:37 markveidemanis haha 20:37 Kacey but change each leter a diff. color 20:37 kaeza Kacey: you don't get the point do you? 20:37 Kacey ooh now i do 20:38 markveidemanis ooohhh 20:38 markveidemanis oooh 20:38 markveidemanis ahhh 20:38 markveidemanis <.> 20:38 kaeza what if you want to say, e.g: [color=yellow]Hello![/color][color=red], world![/color] 20:38 Kacey hmmmm maybe Calinou could make that 20:39 markveidemanis clearobjects ,, ,,, ,,,, , ,, 20:40 markveidemanis ...---..-.-.-.-..- ...-.---....-.--.-.-... ..--.-.--.-.-....-.- ...-.-.-.-.-..- .-. . .-.-.- .- 20:40 markveidemanis morse 20:40 markveidemanis <===================================================> 20:40 markveidemanis anyguess? 20:40 markveidemanis hmmmm 20:41 markveidemanis is it hmmm or hmmmm or hmmmmm 20:41 Kacey ...----... 20:41 markveidemanis or hmm 20:41 VanessaE bbl 20:41 markveidemanis or hm 20:41 markveidemanis Kacey: s-?-s 20:41 Kacey sos 20:42 Kacey i know i failed at it 20:42 markveidemanis ]0 is not ----, its --- 20:42 markveidemanis i am going to post a google link 20:42 markveidemanis http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=morse+code&um=1&hl=en&client=ubuntu&sa=N&tbo=d&channel=cs&biw=1024&bih=476&tbm=isch&tbnid=DTTmku7CMeU1gM:&imgrefurl=http://www.learnmorsecode.com/&docid=u_ijjvUyoadN4M&imgurl=http://www.learnmorsecode.com/pix/CW.gif&w=518&h=234&ei=iw_aUIO-N4mV0QXc8oCACw&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=6&sig=106441845925408229611&page=1&tbnh=134&tbnw=252&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:157&tx=132&ty=63 20:43 kaeza markveidemanis: again, first follow the link and then copypasta the URL in the address bar 20:43 markveidemanis i like copypasta 20:43 markveidemanis http://www.learnmorsecode.com/ 20:43 sokomine yes, more lines or a chat history would be good. also i'd like slightly larger font 20:44 kaeza sokomine: you can't have them both, and expect to have a clean view of the game :) 20:44 markveidemanis Nooooo 20:44 Kacey i thing a image viewer would be awesome 20:44 markveidemanis Noooooo 20:44 markveidemanis <== 20:45 Kacey think* 20:45 sapier1 is someone her who can add the fix for github issue 229 to main? 20:45 sokomine kaeza: yes, that's always the trouble :-) can't have everything at the same time. still..slightly larger font would be nice. the blocks are usually large enough to see them 20:45 markveidemanis Texas ===> 20:45 markveidemanis no, i have netbook 20:45 markveidemanis 1024x600 20:45 RealBadAngel weird winter this year, 3 days ago we had here -19 deg, now its +6 outside 20:45 kaeza Kacey: I've been thinking on making screeenshot sharing mod 20:46 markveidemanis make font smaller 20:46 markveidemanis yay 20:46 sokomine we had snow a few days ago. now its +11 20:46 markveidemanis 20:46 Kacey we had snow last night 20:46 kaeza it's 35 degrees here 20:46 kaeza beat that 20:46 markveidemanis bye, 20:46 markveidemanis Cya 20:46 sokomine where do you live? 20:46 RealBadAngel lol 20:46 kaeza southern hemisphere 20:47 sokomine ok. that makes sense :-) 20:47 kaeza we just entered summer 20:47 Kacey 36 degrees here 20:47 Kacey and we just entered winter 20:47 kaeza 36 degs F or C? 20:47 Kacey f 20:47 sokomine but we're expected to have winter now (germany). +11 degree celsius are far too much for this time. snow at christmas is rare 20:47 kaeza 35 degs C here 20:48 OldCoder Hi 20:48 OldCoder Back 20:48 kaeza wb OC 20:48 sokomine that's even worse. 20 degree....at christmas... 20:48 OldCoder sokomine, But what of CPU for mobs? 20:48 OldCoder Are they improving? 20:48 * Kacey never got invited to the "table" 20:48 RealBadAngel we shall switch to use xmas palms soon 20:49 OldCoder xmas palms sound nice 20:50 Kacey OldCoder never invited me to the "table" 20:50 sokomine i had 100 mobs in a fenced-off small region. they behaved fine. also while running around i noticed no special lag (mapgen lags a lot even without mods). but i do use only "friendly" or at least natural mobs - that is, cows, sheep, birds, fishes, wolves...but no dm, vombies or the like. the aggressive mobs would be very annoying on a server one wants to build 20:52 OldCoder Kacey, PM 20:52 OldCoder Hmm 20:52 OldCoder Will others comment on mobs? 20:53 sapier1 if you do have problems with mobs I'd gladly help 20:54 OldCoder STHGOM, Hi 20:54 OldCoder sapier1, sokomine very well I will evaluate mobs 20:54 sokomine maybe mobs could be "sold" or "crafted" somehow. that way, people wishing for some on their meadows could place them in safe environements where too high acceleration doesn't occur and the mobs remain alive 20:54 STHGOM Hello! 20:54 sokomine hi 20:55 sokomine players who want to focus on the survival-aspects might have diffrent needs 20:58 sokomine no, i don't mean spawn eggs. more machines or npc where you could by animals 20:58 sokomine that's the way you obtain them rl as well...catching a wild one might be difficult :-) 21:00 STHGOM WHEAT! 21:00 sokomine hi jeija 21:00 sokomine er, buy animals 21:01 Jeija Hi everyone! What's wrong with minetest.net btw? 21:01 sokomine we don't know 21:05 aldobr hi all 21:06 Kacey bbl 21:08 kaeza hi aldobr 21:08 kaeza is minetest.net down? 21:08 aldobr i believe so 21:08 aldobr i cant access it too 21:10 aldobr i have no ideas left for a mod 21:10 aldobr i wanted to make radios/telephones 21:10 aldobr but they are useless if i cant filter shout messages 21:10 STHGOM evil mod mod with outlaws :D 21:10 STHGOM *mob mod 21:11 aldobr i have some ideas for mob's 21:11 aldobr but i dont want to enter that part of code now 21:11 STHGOM okok 21:11 STHGOM radio would be cool 21:11 STHGOM then you could make internet! :D 21:12 sokomine *g* 21:12 STHGOM *g*? 21:12 sapier1 :-) create textures for vombie model make them use guns/bows and you'll have your outlaw 21:13 STHGOM : 21:13 STHGOM :D 21:13 STHGOM you could make a telegram thing with mesecons... 21:14 sapier1 btw "guns" are already present dm or big_red use them 21:14 Jordach how about cloning capsules for spawning animals? 21:14 STHGOM for normal farming? 21:15 sapier1 thougth about that too but how to make sure noone accidentaly removes them, how to ensure animals are not cloned to often 21:15 Jordach attack a animal with a vessel filled with molecularized water to extract dna, add a heavy metal vessel; result 21:15 STHGOM lol 21:15 sokomine i'd still prefer the animals beeing sold somewhere... 21:15 sapier1 lol ok ok you meant as additional mod 21:15 Jordach perhaps few more things in between, like gene refining, but you get the point 21:16 sokomine you could by a big box which contains the animal :-) 21:16 Jordach animal crates 21:16 STHGOM why dont two animals get "married" and have "kids"? 21:16 sokomine place that, click on it, and the animal moves out into your stable/on your meadow :-) 21:16 sapier1 thats already possible STHGOM 21:16 STHGOM good 21:16 sapier1 you only need to feed them 21:17 mrdragons STHGOM: Well goats have kids. *shrugs* 21:17 STHGOM lol 21:17 sokomine sthgom: they do. if you place barns and have a female and a male of that species around they can produce a new one 21:17 STHGOM for leading; you could have rope and lead animals to places 21:18 sapier1 :-) that's a little bit more difficult 21:18 STHGOM :D 21:18 sokomine that would be nice as well. but can it be done? attachment seems to be too fixed for that 21:18 STHGOM wheat? 21:18 STHGOM oats? 21:18 STHGOM FOOD??? 21:19 sapier1 leaves 21:19 sokomine the crates might do for now :-) buy one at a local shop (=some node like a chest) and place it where you want your animal :-) 21:19 sokomine yes, leaves. works fine 21:19 sokomine produces small animals which turn into grown-ups after some time 21:19 * OldCoder smells CPUs burning :-) 21:20 sapier1 but ain't 21:20 * OldCoder likes the ideas of farms and animals though 21:20 OldCoder No exploding CPUs? 21:20 OldCoder All right 21:20 OldCoder I will run animals 21:20 OldCoder If they stabilize 21:20 * sokomine puts a ...er...washing-clamp on oldcoders nose :) 21:20 sapier1 animals do already have an on_step handler just checking if they need to grow is next to no additional load 21:22 Jordach OldCoder, ensure the paste survives 21:22 Kacey VanessaE are you on? 21:23 aldobr create predators 21:23 * Jordach needs to stop thinking of rude jokes 21:23 aldobr plants -> vegetarians -> predators 21:23 STHGOM *ROOOOOOAAARRRRRRRR 21:23 * STHGOM is a BEAR!!! 21:23 aldobr if there are too much vegetarians, predators increase killing more vegetarians 21:23 aldobr else 21:23 aldobr predators decrease 21:23 aldobr etc 21:24 aldobr what about natural selection ? :D 21:24 aldobr make animal behaviour evolve 21:24 OldCoder Jordach, PM as I am out of sync 21:24 sapier1 would be great but doesn't work due to minetests chunk based world 21:24 Jordach okay. 21:24 sokomine hm. natural selection means: if there is no more cpu time for an animal it will get deleted? :-) 21:24 aldobr kind of 21:24 aldobr you can make the following 21:24 aldobr run a simulating thread that abstracts the animals 21:25 aldobr they get added to the chunk when the player passes by 21:25 aldobr or removed when the player is no longer looking 21:25 aldobr something like that 21:25 aldobr we need a fit function 21:25 sapier1 that would mean simulating the whole minetest world parallel to minetest ... I think you need some sort of compute cluster to do this properly 21:25 aldobr hm 21:25 aldobr :/ 21:25 kaeza aldobr: that would be similar to the quake engine 21:26 kaeza and BSP trees 21:26 aldobr without the parallel world 21:26 aldobr cant do evolution 21:26 aldobr because evolution would be limited to happen only where the player is looking 21:26 aldobr this would take forever to evolve 21:26 aldobr but 21:26 aldobr hm 21:26 aldobr create another program 21:26 aldobr wich only porpuse is to evolve 21:26 aldobr let it run for some time 21:27 aldobr evolve the animals until they become to behave like animals 21:27 aldobr save the state to a file 21:27 aldobr ship minetest with that startup file 21:28 aldobr i can do that 21:28 aldobr if someone does the lua coding 21:28 sapier1 evolution means adapting to environment ;-) it's a funny idea but for a game like minetest a much more simple aproach gives better results 21:28 M13 does anyone know if slitaz is capiable of running minetest? 21:28 STHGOM like traning 21:28 aldobr sapier1 i am thinking about a specific type of evolution 21:28 sapier1 for example? 21:28 aldobr wait 21:29 aldobr i am searching for a youtube video 21:29 sokomine yes, i think that evolution is too much. even if it's just the algorithm that's envolving 21:29 aldobr it was very simple 21:29 aldobr a car that evolves to drive 21:30 aldobr instead of being born knowing how to drive 21:30 sapier1 :-) i don't think evolution is simple ;-) 21:30 aldobr it can be done in a simple way 21:30 aldobr a random seed 21:30 sokomine the needs are diffrent. mostly we need players to feel like in a world where animals are (like in rl). maybe...considering which animals one encounters most rl in a forrest...dogs might roam around everywhere. and npc 21:30 aldobr the random see is used to decide the thresholds and connections of a small neural network 21:30 sapier1 show me I'm always eager to learn new ways of doing something 21:30 aldobr in the case of minetest animals 21:30 aldobr the neural network dont need to be big 21:30 sokomine that way, the most "fit" for survival animal would be one that never gets close to a player.... 21:30 aldobr something like 20 neurons per animal is enough 21:31 sokomine players are major threads to npc! 21:31 sokomine well, if you could teach them not to fall down, that might help. but then it's a question of cpu-usage 21:31 aldobr they will have to "copulate" 21:31 sapier1 neuronal network ai ... would be worth a try .. but is don't think as less as 20 would be enough 21:32 aldobr making crossover breed 21:32 aldobr at the start they will be pretty dump 21:32 aldobr but falling down will teach some lessons 21:32 aldobr :P 21:33 aldobr i am still searching for the video 21:33 sapier1 you know in minetest you most likely only have a chance to compute every 250 ms 21:33 * sokomine lets the super hostile die out 21:34 sapier1 already possible in mobf @john_minetest 21:35 aldobr found the video 21:36 aldobr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0jNMmdRMSo 21:36 moltenbot aldobr's link: Genetic Algorithm + Artificial Neural Network minesweepers - YouTube 21:36 aldobr videos 21:36 aldobr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Str0Rdkxxo&feature=related 21:36 moltenbot aldobr's link: Neural Network Demo - YouTube 21:36 aldobr they start quite stupid 21:36 aldobr over time the get smarter 21:36 aldobr but they dont have multi-billion-cells brains either 21:37 sapier1 there's a parameter "starts_attack" and another one angryness regulating mobs chances to fight back 21:41 aldobr2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Str0Rdkxxo&feature=related <- that car is controlled by a neural network + Genetic algorithmn 21:41 moltenbot aldobr2's link: Neural Network Demo - YouTube 21:41 aldobr2 over time it improves 21:43 sapier1 but that car does have only a 2d world, 2 modifyable parameters and a clear sense of "improovement" 21:43 aldobr grrrrrrr 21:43 aldobr my network 21:43 aldobr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Str0Rdkxxo&feature=related <- that car is controlled by a neural network + Genetic algorithmn 21:43 moltenbot aldobr's link: Neural Network Demo - YouTube 21:43 sapier1 and 5 in and 5 optimizable parameters 21:44 aldobr make it so that mobs that get deactivated by going out of the chunk the player is 21:44 kaeza1 aldobr: I know that feel bro :) 21:44 aldobr are saved 21:44 aldobr so this will improve their fleeing behaviour 21:44 sapier1 not exactly that will improove their ability to stay away from walls 21:44 aldobr imputs are nearby blocks relative heigth to the current block the mob occupies 21:45 aldobr they will 21:45 aldobr cause they should have two drives 21:45 aldobr flee and eat 21:45 aldobr the vector towards the nearest food is an input 21:45 sapier1 that's far from enough in a 3d world 21:45 aldobr so some will be overwhelmed by the desire to flee 21:45 aldobr others will be overwhelmed by the desire to eat 21:45 aldobr ah 21:45 Kacey we need a rivers mod 21:45 aldobr we need another desire : reproduction 21:45 sdzen to eat players? 21:46 aldobr eat their food 21:46 sapier1 yes and you need improovable algorithms for pathfinding in 3d worlds 21:46 aldobr if it happens to be the player, thats a problem for players ;P 21:46 aldobr sapier1 they dont need path find 21:46 aldobr because they dont have any objective 21:46 aldobr they simple roam 21:46 aldobr looking for food and reproduction 21:46 aldobr and to stay alive 21:46 RealBadAngel sapier i do have pathfinding algorithms in my tubes 21:46 sapier1 true that'd be done by a network complex enough 21:47 aldobr nope 21:47 aldobr i say to you, theres no need for path finding 21:47 sapier1 your tubes are much more deterministic than minetest real world 21:47 aldobr just basic desires 21:47 Kacey i would love to see this mod 21:47 sapier1 i understand what you mean aldobr but an animal must have at least basic abilitys to fullfill it's desires 21:48 aldobr sapier1 21:48 Kacey would it be possible to make a rivers and waterfalls mod? 21:48 aldobr their intelligence is already in their genes 21:49 aldobr the ones that get stuck in a hole will be unable to breed and eat 21:49 aldobr so they die without childs to perpetuate their genes 21:49 RealBadAngel Kacey, wait for new mapgen coming soon 21:49 sapier1 yes I now the basic concept about neuronal networks 21:49 Kacey ooh yay 21:49 sapier1 the car demo you showed is a very basic one 21:50 aldobr if you watch the video 21:50 sapier1 1 clear target (number of white lines passed) 21:50 aldobr you will see that the first ones are so stupid that they run towards the wall instead of avoiding the wall 21:50 RealBadAngel there are two version of mapgen coming 21:50 aldobr = their neurons are connected wrongly 21:50 sapier1 5 optimizable parameters (distance of angles to edge of track) 21:50 sapier1 and 2 parameters to modify 21:50 sapier1 speed and rotation 21:51 STHGOM btw aldobr do you still need ideas? 21:51 aldobr yes 21:51 STHGOM map mod? 21:51 sapier1 so optimizable parameters for mob would be 21:51 sokomine yes, but how many animals will it take so that these selection effects have an effect? 21:51 aldobr sokomine i believe a huge ammount 21:51 aldobr so we will run a "controlled environment" simulation for a time 21:52 aldobr save the genes of the best results 21:52 sapier1 distance angle to food | distance angle to next animal to breed | distance angle to enemy (each with multiple values) 21:52 aldobr and ship the game with that seeds 21:53 sokomine the trouble is: with a world like minetest, you need realism only to a limited degree. the mobs need to serve the player. survival...is only insofar important as a new mob spawning eats cpu time. and animals jumping to their death do not convince players that the animals are realistic enough 21:53 sapier1 speed, angle x,y, altitude change as changeable parameters 21:53 sapier1 but what to optimize? in a 3d world there's lot to check 21:54 sokomine at which distance are animals disabled? 21:54 Kacey how about at viewing distance 21:54 Kacey brb 21:54 sapier1 not much mor than you can see 21:54 Kacey afk 21:54 sokomine hm, yes. "don't run faster than you can see" might be a good rule :-) 21:54 RealBadAngel work on loaded blocks 21:54 RealBadAngel not view range 21:55 aldobr add a rule 21:55 sokomine ah. so it's difficult to tell what will be loaded? 21:55 RealBadAngel no 21:55 aldobr that says that if the animal fleed far enough to become deactivated 21:55 RealBadAngel you dont care bout it 21:55 aldobr it is saved 21:55 sokomine (except when fleeing from a predator like a player) 21:55 aldobr this improves their desire to flee 21:55 sokomine but deactivated animals won't reproduce either 21:55 aldobr yes but their seed is saved 21:55 RealBadAngel add serialize to store animal when unloading, and deserialize when block gets loaded 21:55 sokomine it might be very intresting as a game of its own 21:56 aldobr as soon as the animal is out of sight 21:56 sapier1 so as soon as a new chunk is loaded maybe thousands of fleed animals get activated at once ;) 21:56 aldobr they dont exist anymore 21:56 aldobr nope 21:56 aldobr seed pool 21:56 aldobr if an animal is out of sight 21:56 aldobr instead of being saved (then) 21:56 aldobr save his seed with a score 21:56 aldobr and kill it 21:56 sapier1 not possible in minetest 21:56 aldobr when a new chunk is loaded 21:56 sapier1 as soon as an entity leaves loaded chunk area its unloaded 21:56 aldobr select a random number of animals to create 21:57 aldobr create then using the seeds saved in the pool 21:57 sapier1 there's no way to do something on chunk load 21:57 STHGOM lol 21:57 aldobr maybe we need to add a new lua entry ? 21:57 aldobr "register on chunk load" ? 21:57 RealBadAngel i do have items in tubes goin round and round 21:57 sokomine what we need most for them can be done already: models and animations so that their "behaviour" does not seem too strange for players. those are completely diffrent aspects...."surviving" and "giving players a good gameplay". we need the later one 21:57 RealBadAngel can leave the area and go back 21:58 RealBadAngel and they will be still moving 21:58 sapier1 considering how slow mapgen is i don't think doing this on any chunk load is a good idea 21:58 sokomine if you really go into animals players want to fight with, it would be a terrible idea if said animals would be *too good* at fleeing 21:58 RealBadAngel i will show you something 21:58 aldobr real life animals are too good at fleeing 21:58 aldobr thats why hunters used bows and guns 21:58 aldobr not swords 21:59 * VanessaE wanders back in 21:59 aldobr you cant hunt a deer using a full metal armour and a sword 21:59 RealBadAngel sapier1, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySI38AOIfAA 21:59 moltenbot RealBadAngel's link: Unload/Load with items in tubes - YouTube 21:59 aldobr he will simply out run you 22:00 sapier1 that's not what I meant, of course they will move again as soon as the chunk is loaded. think about following case 22:00 sapier1 an animal is spawned next to a chunk boundary 22:00 sapier1 it moves towards the boundery thus beeing unloaded 22:00 sapier1 next one is spawned ... doing same thing ... again and again 22:01 aldobr thats why i want do add mobs only at chunk load 22:01 sapier1 now player moves and the former unloaded chunk is now loaded ---> hundreds and thousands of mobs are loaded at once 22:01 aldobr add a new lua function minetest.register_on_chunk_load 22:01 aldobr minetest.register_on_chunk_unload 22:01 RealBadAngel in minecraft hostlie mobs were spawning/despawning only in certain range around player 22:01 sapier1 as I already told, this will introduce lots of additional lag to minetest 22:02 aldobr well sapier1 22:02 aldobr this needs to be teste 22:02 aldobr you cant know for sure without test 22:02 aldobr *tested 22:02 sapier1 of course ... but we already have very similar case ... mapgen 22:02 aldobr i remmember algorithmn complexity lessons 22:02 Kacey_ hello 22:02 aldobr omg my algorithmn is o(n^2) 22:02 aldobr this is too costly ! 22:03 aldobr what happens if O is soo small that even with N^2 22:03 aldobr the endresult is the same as another algorithmn that does O(N) ? 22:04 RealBadAngel sapier, so despawn (kill) hostile mobs on unload or when too far from the player 22:04 sapier1 you have to consider that evolution is an effect only working on huge numbers of individuals so your O never can be small if you expect any reasonable effect 22:04 aldobr sapier1 22:04 aldobr thats why we will need a teste case version 22:04 aldobr to let it run for a long time 22:04 aldobr and get results 22:04 aldobr then ship only reasonable seeds 22:04 RealBadAngel and make a limit of active mobs in loaded area 22:04 aldobr RealBadAngel exact 22:05 RealBadAngel but that should apply only to hostile mobs 22:05 RealBadAngel not to breadable ones 22:05 sapier1 you know how small minetests current limit for active mobs is= 22:05 aldobr think 22:05 aldobr does it really care 22:05 aldobr if the vombie that attacked me 22:05 aldobr is the same that attacked john doer ? 22:06 sapier1 for scientific cases it's not but for a game it is 22:06 aldobr why ? 22:06 aldobr they have the same behaviour 22:06 aldobr brains ! brains ! 22:06 sapier1 wait I thing we're talking of different things atm 22:07 sapier1 I'm talking about the active mob limit 22:07 aldobr set a limit to active mobs 22:07 aldobr kill anything that exceeds 22:07 aldobr save their seed in a pool 22:07 sapier1 bad idea 22:07 aldobr kill anything that strays out of visible area 22:07 aldobr save their seeds 22:07 aldobr et 22:07 aldobr etc 22:07 sapier1 ppl get mad if their stable is empty 22:07 aldobr hm 22:08 aldobr i was not taking domestication into account 22:08 aldobr that makes everything harder 22:08 RealBadAngel i already told that, despawnin should only apply to hostile ones 22:08 RealBadAngel appearing and walkin away randomly 22:08 sapier1 first step would be creating mobs fulfilling only one need .. getting food 22:09 RealBadAngel breeded ones shall be stored in every case 22:09 aldobr food and to stay alive 22:09 aldobr out of player hands 22:09 sapier1 if and only if that works at all adding predators would be an option 22:10 sapier1 but finding food in a 3d world is a much more complex task to achieve than staying in the middle of a track 22:10 aldobr real world animals find food by pure luck 22:10 sapier1 not quite 22:10 aldobr you will say that they have senses 22:10 aldobr like smell 22:11 aldobr but even then 22:11 aldobr its luck 22:11 sapier1 real world animals have born in algorithms 22:11 RealBadAngel if you wont encounter same problem that australia had with rabbits 22:11 tjbarber Hey guys, the minetest website is down for me. Could someone get me the link to the Mac binary download? 22:11 aldobr because smelling food is an random event 22:11 tjbarber thanks in advance ;) 22:11 kaeza1 tjbarber: hi! 22:11 kaeza1 yes minetest.net is down 22:12 aldobr "find object in radius" 22:12 tjbarber hey there ;P 22:12 aldobr search for mob food in a radius 22:12 aldobr this can account for "smell" or "seeing" the food 22:12 aldobr calculate a vector towards the food 22:12 aldobr either will happen 22:12 sapier1 works 2d only 22:12 aldobr the animal will lose track of the food 22:13 aldobr while trying to reach it without falling into a pit 22:13 sapier1 but would be worth a try 22:13 aldobr or will reach it 22:13 aldobr or stay stuck 22:13 aldobr a stuck animal is easy to hunt 22:13 aldobr so he dies 22:13 NakedFury give a view/hear range stat to mobs. if they see food in their range they go to eat 22:13 aldobr and leaves no childs 22:13 aldobr his seed is removed from the pool 22:14 sapier1 you know we need to simulate all the behaviour real world animals do which have far more complex brains than we will be able to simulate 22:14 aldobr well 22:14 aldobr if we manage to simulate an amoeba 22:14 ZOMBIEEEEE BRAINZZZZ 22:14 aldobr i would be very proud :P 22:14 tjbarber what is the latest version? 22:14 sapier1 ok we have blocks in this world true ... but movement is as complex as in real world 22:14 RealBadAngel 0.4.4 is the latest stable 22:15 aldobr make another input 22:15 aldobr based on terrain surroundings 22:15 tjbarber ok. Thanks RealBadAngel. Right now I was able to find a copy of 0.4 dev release for Mac 22:15 aldobr impassable = more than 1 block in height difference 22:15 aldobr passabe = 0 or 1 height difference 22:15 aldobr unless the animal is a bird 22:16 sapier1 don't talk about birds 22:16 aldobr that opens a whole different setup 22:16 aldobr animals with good seeds will learn to avoid moving into directions that lead to bigger than 1 height differences 22:16 aldobr because they could either fall and die outright 22:16 aldobr or get stuck in a concave structure 22:17 aldobr and be hunted by their predator 22:17 NakedFury I guess the AI will work better if written in C++ right? 22:17 sapier1 sorry can you please stop telling "and magicaly it learns and everything is fine" ... miracles don't occur that easy 22:17 aldobr sure 22:17 kaeza1 NakedFury: +1 22:17 aldobr sapier1 its not miracle 22:17 aldobr its natural selection 22:17 aldobr it has done quite impressive things in the real world 22:17 sapier1 no it's neuronal networks combined wit natural selection 22:17 kaeza1 aldobr: pathfinding in a 3D world is no easy task 22:17 aldobr kaeza1 no need for pathfinding 22:18 aldobr animals have no stated objective 22:18 aldobr they simply roam 22:18 aldobr all they need is to avoid some critical pitfalls 22:18 NakedFury aldobr that insane AI you want would need sapier1 through sapier99 working on it non stop for some years to work for minetest 22:18 aldobr and keep roaming 22:18 sapier1 neuronal networks are good things to manage complex tasks with no exact solution ... but I think you underestimate computational needs by some degrees 22:18 aldobr we need to check the real computational need 22:19 aldobr i dont know 22:19 aldobr is 20 neurons enough ? 22:19 aldobr 200 ? 22:19 aldobr 20000000 ? 22:19 aldobr only a model can answer that 22:19 sapier1 to check the computational need to create the full environment to learn ... which is lot of work to do 22:19 aldobr the world is not exectly 3d for a mob 22:20 sapier1 it is 3d 22:20 aldobr its a 2d map of heights 22:20 aldobr because most mobs cant fly 22:20 aldobr nor can change the environment in meaningfull ways 22:20 orbitaldecay the last thing you want to use in a real time AI for a game is a neural network 22:20 orbitaldecay slow slow slow 22:20 sapier1 thre still can be bridges in this world 22:20 kaeza1 aldobr: you cannot convert a 3d world to a 2d heightmap 22:20 aldobr too hard to explain in english 22:21 kaeza1 no I understand what you say 22:21 aldobr you can flatten the 3d structure 22:21 sapier1 no you cant 22:21 aldobr check only what is at the same level as the mob 22:21 sapier1 at least not for all situations 22:21 kaeza1 but at the sane (X,Z), you can have several Y's 22:21 kaeza1 same* 22:21 aldobr yes 22:21 aldobr but you can simply ignore 22:21 aldobr because the mobs will simply roam 22:22 aldobr flatten the structure 22:22 sapier1 no you can't that cases you want to ignore are those cases causing 99% of troubles 22:22 aldobr tell me one 22:22 kaeza1 aldobr: that could mean a mob cannot "roam" inside a cave for example 22:22 NakedFury too much trouble, go with minecraft style AI 22:22 aldobr kaeza1 so what ? 22:22 kaeza1 because he would see other Y 22:22 sapier1 neither could it walk through a hole in a wall 22:22 aldobr i am seeing a solution 22:22 aldobr where all those things are immaterial 22:22 orbitaldecay yeah, I'm doing graduate study in machine learning, its way more messy than people realize 22:23 Kacey back 22:23 aldobr machine learning is a big field with lots of subtopics 22:23 kaeza1 wb Kacey 22:23 orbitaldecay indeed it is 22:23 aldobr i would be afraid of making such a sweeping generalization 22:23 aldobr even because i dont know much about that field 22:23 orbitaldecay I'm not lol 22:23 sapier1 i know this @orbitaldecay beginners lessons always tell "you can do everything" but if you look into details you see those details require much more time and attention than everything else 22:24 aldobr you are raising details 22:24 aldobr but not giving just one sample 22:24 sapier1 I've already told 3d worlds with multiple levels of surface 22:24 aldobr kaeza1 i am thinking in a solution 22:24 aldobr where even flattening the world 22:24 aldobr the mob WILL enter caves 22:24 sapier1 you can't flatten that world 22:25 aldobr yes you can :) 22:25 sapier1 how? 22:25 orbitaldecay I would love to see someone implement a practical machine learning algorithm for minetest 22:25 kaeza1 aldobr: no you cant 22:25 orbitaldecay but I will believe it when I see it 22:25 aldobr yes you can :D hahaha 22:25 NakedFury orbital do it as your tesis project 22:25 NakedFury :D 22:25 orbitaldecay that would be fun :D 22:25 aldobr make a 2d map 22:25 aldobr of the relative height of surroundings 22:25 sapier1 you need to create a 2d map on the fly everytime you do your calculations 22:25 aldobr going upwards that height is measured from the bottom of blocks 22:26 aldobr going downwards that height is measured from the top of blocks 22:26 aldobr you dont need to make a big 2d map 22:26 aldobr just a map like 5x5 22:26 sapier1 ok probably i dont understand but if a mob is standing on surface 22:26 aldobr enough to detect food 22:26 aldobr and predators 22:26 aldobr it WILL enter the cave 22:26 sapier1 plz forget about predators 22:27 tjbarber wait is there even a Mac binary or is it just win32? xD 22:27 aldobr because the cave will show up as open 22:27 sapier1 just start with simple things bevore adding whol complexity 22:27 tjbarber found minetest's github 22:27 sapier1 there is no "cave" 22:27 Jakssoul Hola. 22:27 sapier1 there are just blocks 22:27 aldobr sapier1 22:27 orbitaldecay aldobr: wouldn't the mobs all eventually get stuck in pits? 22:27 aldobr orbitaldecay yes 22:28 orbitaldecay how would you prevent it? 22:28 tjbarber hi jakssoul ;) 22:28 aldobr and die out of hunger 22:28 aldobr mobs that die are removed from the gene pool 22:28 Jakssoul tjbarber, have we spoken before? 22:28 sapier1 that's problem that shall be fixed by evolution and neuronal networks which might even work 22:28 aldobr just need a way to detect whats a pit 22:28 orbitaldecay what would stop the entire population from dying that way? 22:28 aldobr nothing 22:28 sapier1 now you get the point 22:28 orbitaldecay before anyone learns how? 22:28 tjbarber Jakssoul, maybe... I hang around on Freenode 22:28 sapier1 aldobr you only have blocks and distances 22:28 aldobr but how do we know without even modelling the thing to see if its feasible ? 22:29 orbitaldecay aldobr: I think modeling it is a great idea 22:29 Jakssoul I'd remember ya, I don't think we have. It's funny that you'd say hi when people I speak to all the time won't. >_> 22:29 orbitaldecay but I think it will be hard to do 22:29 sapier1 there is no "cave" "pit" "bridge" "whole" or anything like that 22:29 aldobr sapier1 yes there are 22:29 tjbarber lol! 22:29 aldobr if you find an algorithmn to heuristically detect what is a cave 22:29 aldobr what is a pit 22:29 aldobr etc 22:29 orbitaldecay supposing that there are, being able to recognize a pit or a hole and actually avoiding it are two different things 22:29 sapier1 lol 22:30 orbitaldecay both of which are pretty hard 22:30 orbitaldecay I think 22:30 sapier1 that's not possible ... your neuronal network will have to create that algortithm 22:30 orbitaldecay but it sounds like a fun project 22:30 aldobr nope 22:30 aldobr i am right now thinking about a way 22:30 sapier1 tell me 22:31 aldobr cut the world 22:31 aldobr only the same Y as the mob 22:31 aldobr 5x5 or more 22:31 aldobr if a node is "default:air" 22:31 aldobr seek downwards and upwards until finding something that blocks passage 22:32 aldobr when seeking downards 22:32 aldobr the top face is taking as the measure point 22:32 aldobr when seeking upwards 22:32 aldobr the bottom face is taken as the measure point 22:32 sapier1 far to slow ... you need to use mobs position as base ... but thats detail only 22:32 aldobr measure it to the mob's current Y 22:32 aldobr this will generate a heigth map 22:32 aldobr you flattened the world... 22:32 aldobr look 22:33 aldobr theres a cave -40000 from the current mob position 22:33 aldobr does it matter ? 22:33 sapier1 ok I'm still listening 22:33 aldobr when you are playing 22:33 aldobr sometimes there are caves -2000 blocks from your current position 22:33 aldobr but you dont care 22:33 aldobr because you dont even know that they are there 22:33 Jakssoul hola kaeze! 22:33 Jakssoul kaeza* 22:33 sapier1 you know follow movement gen currently splits world n 3x3 squares and even this is to slow for minetest? 22:33 aldobr sapier1 is this done in C++ ? 22:33 kaeza o hai Jakssoul 22:34 kaeza hi john_minetest 22:34 orbitaldecay +1 22:34 sapier1 no it ain't but you don't need to believe c is doing miracles 22:34 Jakssoul kaeza, is there a binary release of Minetest for Max? tjbarber asked me and I'm not entirely sure. 22:34 kaeza john_minetest: mobs were in C++ prior to 0.4 stable 22:34 Jakssoul I have found a project working on it, but not a release. 22:35 kaeza Jakssoul, tjbarber: the mac build is really old IIRC 22:35 sapier1 that's because celeron didn't want c++ mobs anymore 22:35 tjbarber I found a dev release for like 0.4 22:35 aldobr sapier1 if this is that slow 22:35 sapier1 mobf would be a c++ api 22:35 tjbarber so will I need to compile it? 22:35 aldobr then there are problems with current data structures 22:35 kaeza tjbarber: that's your best bet for now 22:35 aldobr i dont know minetest internals 22:35 aldobr so... 22:35 Jakssoul Yup, newest one I found is also .04 22:35 Jakssoul 0.4* 22:36 aldobr how are nodes stored internally ? 22:36 kaeza Jakssoul, tjbarber: 0.4 is really old :P we are at 0.4.4 now 22:36 sapier1 aldobr we're not talking about 100 nodes ... we're talking about thousands of nodes 22:36 tjbarber yep 22:36 VanessaE zzz 22:36 Jakssoul Hellllooo VanessaE. 22:36 aldobr i believe 22:36 VanessaE hi 22:36 sapier1 mobf already is what you want it to be @john_minetest 22:36 Jakssoul Anyone know why Minetest.net is down? 22:37 tjbarber I mean I should be able to compile it ok... I guess I'll just have to play with it 22:37 aldobr work should be concentrated in map handling/generation 22:37 aldobr to get something faster 22:37 aldobr then tackle complex mobs 22:37 VanessaE Jakssoul: dunno, at least c55 already knows about it anyway 22:37 Jakssoul Well I think that's obvious. Does he maintain the site himself? 22:38 sapier1 yes of course I needed them to test it's functions 22:38 NakedFury aldobr: yes in steps. fix/edit/rework/etc map then tackle the next goal or objective 22:38 aldobr is it a simple array ? 22:38 aldobr with x,y,z coords ? 22:39 sapier1 not quite it's somehow chunk based as server couldn't handle whole world in memory if it'd be loaded at once 22:39 aldobr yes i know 22:39 aldobr but the chunks 22:39 aldobr are arrays ? 22:39 aldobr indexed by x,y,z ? 22:40 orbitaldecay hopefully the chunks are in a tree of some sort 22:40 sapier1 I don't exactly know I didn't bother with c++ code for some time as noone seemd to accept improovements 22:40 aldobr k 22:40 aldobr i will do the following 22:41 NakedFury they will be accepted sapier 22:41 aldobr i will search for the correct data structure for storing a "map" 22:41 aldobr or is anybody else workin on the map ? 22:41 NakedFury aldobr the user hmmmmm is working on revamping the mapgeneration completely 22:41 aldobr ok 22:41 aldobr so i rest my case :P 22:42 sapier1 @nakedfury ...theoreticaly they are ... practicaly sometimes they are sometimes not 22:43 RealBadAngel not only him 22:43 aldobr having multiple representations of the map at the same time 22:43 RealBadAngel https://github.com/kwolekr/minetest 22:43 moltenbot RealBadAngel's link: kwolekr/minetest ? GitHub 22:43 aldobr can improve times 22:43 aldobr but at the price of more memmory 22:43 RealBadAngel heres another mapgen, with biomes support 22:43 aldobr like a x,y,z array of nodes for random access 22:43 aldobr plus a tree representation 22:43 sapier1 btw mobf is already shaped like c++ code so it'd be no big deal to translate 22:44 aldobr i remember that omnistudent was working in a project 22:44 aldobr to make bots that run distributed 22:44 aldobr they run outside server 22:44 aldobr as if they were players 22:44 hmmmm guys 22:45 Jakssoul Hmmm? 22:45 aldobr this opens a whole lot of possibilities 22:45 hmmmm come to think about it, hold off on pasting my repository before i fix it 22:45 sapier1 this is a game .. we can't use compute clusters 22:45 hmmmm it crashes crap instantly because i still haven't committed the Y->Z swap 22:45 aldobr sapier1 well, we can 22:46 sapier1 if you want someone to play this game you can't 22:46 aldobr well 22:46 aldobr two computers is already distributed computing 22:47 aldobr three etc 22:47 aldobr ok 22:47 hmmmm distributed computing.... 22:47 aldobr i understand your argument 22:47 hmmmm maybe for your fork of minetest, or your own minecraft clone 22:47 aldobr price 22:47 hmmmm but not in this project, sorry 22:47 aldobr i am not working on it 22:47 aldobr its omnistudent work 22:47 hmmmm well we have enough idea guys 22:47 hmmmm we need coding guys 22:47 aldobr i can code 22:48 aldobr but will take some time to get familiarized with minetest source 22:48 hmmmm if you want minetest to be able to do this, then perhaps you ought to code it 22:48 sapier1 still you'd need to write your own client to create a mob ... running one client each mob ... thus pushing load to server as if 100+ players would be online 22:48 hmmmm (read: put your code where your mouth is) 22:48 aldobr sapier1 22:48 aldobr i dont know how he plans to solve that 22:49 aldobr you are getting too defensive without reason to 22:49 aldobr i see no reason 22:49 sapier1 we are talking about a solution with distributed mobs am i right? 22:49 aldobr no 22:49 kaeza1 aldobr: we are not "defensive" 22:49 aldobr we are talking to a solution for mobs 22:49 aldobr whatever it takes 22:50 aldobr *talking about 22:50 kaeza1 if you can get that working right, without a huge CPU load 22:50 aldobr distributed or local 22:50 kaeza1 then open a pull request 22:50 aldobr neural network, genetic, machine learning 22:50 aldobr whatever 22:50 kaeza1 and maybe someone will find your changes useful 22:51 aldobr kaeza1 i want to work on the map thing first 22:51 aldobr cause most people are complaining about the map being too slow 22:51 aldobr so this is where to start 22:51 sapier1 aldobr I've gotten lots of good ideas since I started mobf ... many are great ... I even thought about the same way you proposed ... but for lots of reasons I've not done this by now ... performance is only the most obvious one 22:51 aldobr so what are you planning to do ? 22:52 hmmmm if you want to implement a smart AI for mobs, I would take a look at STRIPS planning system 22:52 kaeza1 aldobr: also distributed computing as you say, may not be the case 22:52 aldobr kaeza1 going to clouds can work miracles 22:52 aldobr but 22:52 kaeza1 you must also see that on singleplayer when the only one is you 22:52 aldobr its not cheap for a game 22:53 sapier1 mobf is implemented in a way you easyly can replace it's movement gen ... if there is a way to use neuronal networks to achiev this target this would be the first step in my opinion 22:53 kaeza1 It's better to optimize the current algorithm than to require other computers to do the job for you 22:54 aldobr hmmmm your agressive remark only got one result, i am more inclined now to not help instead of helping (wich was my original intention) 22:54 sapier1 sorry i didn't want to sound agressive 22:54 sapier1 i just want a step by step solution 22:55 aldobr sapier1 theres no step by step solution without discussion 22:55 hmmmm hey, that's fine, it's a free country 22:55 kaeza1 aldobr: you must not take everyone that says your idea is bad as aggresive 22:55 hmmmm you can do anything 22:55 aldobr kaeza1 the remark WAS agressive 22:56 sapier1 I'm not even saying "it's bad" I'm just not conviced it can be done 22:56 aldobr actually, minetest community has a lot of agressivenes 22:56 aldobr you can see that from the ammount of coders leaving the community 22:56 kaeza1 yeah, sorry, I suck a bit at english 22:56 aldobr check forum 22:56 hmmmm well come on, for the past two days you've been just blabbing on about big ideas that'll never actually get implemented 22:56 kaeza1 sapier1: that's what I meant, sorry 22:56 aldobr hmmmm how do you know ? 22:56 aldobr you made one thing 22:56 hmmmm i don't know, it's just a hunch 22:56 aldobr now they SURE wont 22:57 sdzen a very good one 22:57 hmmmm if you'd like to prove me wrong... 22:57 aldobr too much MACHO thing here 22:57 aldobr looks like i will join the leaving coders, without even coding anything but some mods 22:57 hmmmm have fun 22:57 sapier1 I understand what aldobr means but probably we should take into consideration that next to no one of us is english native speaker so probably some sentences can easyly be misinterpreted 22:58 hmmmm we didn't lose anything 22:58 aldobr YES! 22:58 hmmmm nah, he knew what i was saying perfectly... 22:58 aldobr thats exactly the attitude a am talking about 22:58 aldobr we didn't lose anything 22:58 aldobr that phrase is perfect to state the attitude i am talking about 22:58 hmmmm aldobr: should we be begging you for your help instead? 22:58 aldobr hmmmm is that a dichotomy ? 22:58 sapier1 plz lets stick back to the problem ;-) 22:58 aldobr beg or reject outright ? 22:59 VanessaE aldobr: perhaps you should focus on smaller projects first? 22:59 aldobr cant you do something in between ? 22:59 hmmmm no, but it seems like you want instantaneous praise 22:59 aldobr praise ? 22:59 VanessaE distributed computing for a game that doesn't even have a centralized server system? 22:59 aldobr pls show me where i asked for praise ? 22:59 hmmmm i said it seems like it 22:59 aldobr a single phrase, pls 22:59 aldobr it seems 22:59 aldobr because thats a projection ? 22:59 hmmmm christ.... 22:59 hmmmm alright, i'm out. 22:59 aldobr thanks, we are not losing anything ? 23:00 aldobr think some opensource problems suffer from the same problems continually 23:00 sapier1 aldobr calm down this is a community project sometimes you have to live with your proposals not beeing accepted even if they are better ;-) 23:00 aldobr i am calm guy 23:00 aldobr ive seen that attitude before 23:00 sapier1 se mobf ... it great doing anythin but still doesn't have any chance to be added to master :) 23:00 aldobr sapier1 i accept my proposal not being accepted 23:00 aldobr its perfectly ok 23:01 aldobr what i dont accept is that attitude 23:01 celeron55 lol 23:01 hmmmm well if you don't like it you can just fork it 23:01 aldobr you take any proposal not as a proposal but as a kind of 23:01 aldobr cant remember the word 23:01 aldobr as if as i was demanding it 23:01 RealBadAngel cant you guys just stop it? :) 23:01 RealBadAngel cmon, its xmas 23:02 aldobr people are too defensive 23:02 celeron55 the world is full of ideas, but the world is missing people who actually can do and finish stuff 23:02 aldobr i can do 23:02 aldobr but this is not an ego thing 23:02 sapier1 aldobr we're discussing your proposal for hours now we wouldn't do this if it'd not be an interesting aproach 23:02 aldobr its hard to express myself not in my native language 23:02 hmmmm we get what you mean perfectly; trust me 23:03 STHGOM where are you from? 23:03 aldobr brazil 23:03 sapier1 I guss implementing your proposal in a way you can really tell if it's working or not is about half a year of development (part time of course) 23:03 kaeza1 merry xmas celeron55 23:03 STHGOM what is your native language? 23:03 aldobr portuguese 23:03 STHGOM ok 23:03 STHGOM ola! 23:03 aldobr back to the topic 23:03 STHGOM (i only know a little) 23:04 STHGOM ok 23:04 aldobr i believe i should focus myself into implementing the delta engine i was talking about 23:04 sapier1 I'm already back at topic ;-) @aldobr 23:04 Jeija http://www.mesecons.net/addserver.html << This is where you can add your server to my multiplayer server list. At the moment it is added straight away, I'm working on the proposals from the pull request. 23:04 moltenbot Jeija's link: Minetest Serverlist - Add Server 23:04 aldobr but its quite hard to jump into a source code that i never touched before 23:04 aldobr without directions 23:04 hmmmm aldobr, start reading the wiki 23:04 celeron55 the wiki... that is down 8) 23:04 hmmmm well =/ 23:05 aldobr hmmmm i've already done a mod to get acquited of the game 23:05 sapier1 anotherones code is always hard to read until you understand the way he was thinking 23:05 aldobr now i want to jump into the c++ 23:05 aldobr actually 23:05 aldobr i am not sure if i want 23:05 aldobr we didn't lose anything 23:05 hmmmm oh speaking of which 23:05 hmmmm i need to add documentation on the new stuff on the wiki 23:06 hmmmm who is in charge of that, xyz? 23:06 aldobr maybe thats why there are so much leaving coders at the forum... 23:06 celeron55 hmmmm: in charge of minetest.net? 23:06 VanessaE aldobr: there are a dozen bugs that need fixed and no one is able, or has the time, inclination, or skills to fix - why not just start there? 23:06 hmmmm yeah 23:06 celeron55 hmmmm: i am (except for api.minetest.net) 23:06 sapier1 if you start coding for minetest you'll have to get used to minetests coding style ... which is (at least to me) somehow strange ... sorry to all developers its just my personal oppinion 23:06 celeron55 and i can't do anything once again 23:06 hmmmm welp 23:06 hmmmm no hurry 23:06 VanessaE celeron55: I wish I knew what I were doing, I'd be more than happy to host the forums et.al on my web space 23:07 hmmmm sapier1, what do you find strange about it in particular? 23:07 hmmmm the syntax, style of code flow, the code itself? 23:07 celeron55 VanessaE: thexyz can take the site any time... but i'm kind of hesistant to do that, because then practically everythin would be hosted by thexyz 23:08 sapier1 it's ahrd to explain the way the code is written doesn't quite match my thinking patterns 23:08 hmmmm i use the Linux Kernel coding style (except for switch statements, i indent the cases) 23:08 VanessaE I understand - you don't want to put it all in one person's hands who may not always be arounf. 23:08 VanessaE around* 23:09 celeron55 it's good to spread around responsibilities and stuff like that 23:09 VanessaE yup 23:09 VanessaE (and spread the blame? ;-) ) 23:10 celeron55 i need to figure out what's causing these complete lock-ups of the vps though 23:10 celeron55 this isn't really too acceptable 23:12 aldobr sapier1 i can write code, just like when i asked pilzadam for a new machine in his mod and he said he wont do, i've done, even without never touching lua 23:12 jeffrash_nexus Hi guys. Is there an mine test android client? 23:13 hmmmm lol^ 23:13 hmmmm actually that's not too hard 23:13 hmmmm there's irrlicht for android 23:14 jeffrash_nexus What's irrlicht? 23:14 hmmmm the 3d engine we use 23:15 sapier1 @aldobr I understand you I've been in same situation sometimes, I even like the idea of neuronal networks for ai, I just see how much work needs to be done to get this even next to working 23:16 jeffrash_nexus I see. 23:16 aldobr sapier1 i believe now that NN's are not the best solution 23:16 aldobr because the problem can be solved by simpler means 23:16 aldobr but i dont see a problem in discussing it 23:16 sapier1 you can do this completely on your own reinventing the wheel in some places .. or use evolutionary way by adding neuronal features step by step to already existing code 23:16 aldobr to exaustion 23:16 aldobr thats how things improve 23:16 aldobr discussing, without taking it personally 23:16 celeron55 site's up 23:17 aldobr without hidden weapons 23:17 STHGOM OldCoder : are you on? 23:17 VanessaE celeron55: no it ain't :-) 23:17 OldCoder Hi 23:17 sapier1 I'm not a friend of hiding something so believe me if I say I'm really considering it I do 23:17 OldCoder STHGOM, Yes 23:17 VanessaE greetz, OldCoder 23:18 OldCoder VanessaE, Hi! 23:18 STHGOM may i PM you 1 more time? 23:18 OldCoder Of course 23:18 aldobr sapier1 i am not directing this to you specifically 23:18 OldCoder Go ahead 23:19 sapier1 ok so plz stick back to the problem 23:19 aldobr sapier1 23:20 aldobr i believe the first thing for a mob 23:20 sapier1 in my opinion first step would be creating a movement generator using a neuronal network to make a mob stay on lets say "grass" 23:20 aldobr will be path finding 23:20 sapier1 that'd be even to complex for a first step 23:20 aldobr i was brainwashing about mob development before 23:20 aldobr i see a problem with path finding 23:20 VanessaE brainstormg. 23:20 VanessaE brainstorming* 23:21 aldobr yeah brainstorming 23:21 aldobr what happens if the mod wants to move from chunk A to chunk B 23:21 RealBadAngel and got brainwashed then ;) 23:21 sapier1 I do too but it's even difficult to ensure a mob stays on grass ;-) 23:21 VanessaE RealBadAngel: you're already brainwashed ;) 23:21 aldobr and there are not generated chunks in between ? 23:21 RealBadAngel hehe 23:21 aldobr or 23:21 aldobr if the mob requests a path 23:22 aldobr and someone willfully or not 23:22 aldobr changes something in the path 23:22 sapier1 plz ppl why do you switch to complex problems without having solved simple ones 23:22 VanessaE the path has to be re-computed every time the MOB moves from one node to another 23:22 aldobr i believe its a fundamental primitive that should be done one way or the other 23:23 aldobr i believe this will be pretty costly 23:23 sapier1 vanessaE it's even more compley as a mob's collision box is larger than a node therefore it may enter many nodes at once 23:23 VanessaE sapier1: just speaking generally. 23:23 aldobr sapier1 : keeping mob in grass -> if next node where i want to move to is not grass, turn around 23:24 sapier1 atm follow movement generator recalculates movement a soon as predicted time to next node has elapsed 23:24 sapier1 aldobr and what do you do if since last checking you've moved more than one node? 23:24 aldobr only move one node at a time ? 23:25 VanessaE celeron55: it works now.. 23:25 sapier1 you have to stick with the cpu time you get 23:25 aldobr is some time outside grass acceptable ? 23:25 sapier1 depends on what you're uppon 23:26 aldobr well 23:26 aldobr with a pathfinder 23:26 aldobr you can draw the full path before moving 23:26 aldobr just make everything that is not grass to be too costly 23:26 sapier1 no you can't as your path may change in minetest while you're moving 23:27 aldobr yes thats why i asked what to do 23:27 sapier1 you need to check by time if your path is still valid 23:28 aldobr im out of the mood to think about such complex issues 23:28 aldobr sorry 23:28 aldobr i want to help 23:28 aldobr but 23:28 hmmmm it's a doggy dog world out there... 23:28 hmmmm people like you are diamond dozen. 23:28 hmmmm we ought to take what you say with a grain assault. 23:28 VanessaE *groan* 23:29 sapier1 @aldobr I'm sorry I just can't make it less complex 23:29 hmmmm vanessa, don't take it for granite. 23:29 aldobr i believe planning before coding 23:30 aldobr i usually think the same thing over and over before writting a single line of code 23:30 mrdragons Measure twice, cut once 23:30 VanessaE I plan out the most coarse chunks of a project, but then I kinda muddle way through it from start to finish after that. 23:31 RealBadAngel best way to start is to write a function definition ;) at least you have to define whats needed by it :) 23:32 hmmmm it's easy to miss really important details if you don't do any code at all 23:32 VanessaE RealBadAngel: and then you decide "you know, this function can easily do X, so let me add parameter Y to the function call...) 23:32 VanessaE " 23:32 hmmmm the sort of details where you'll get stuck hard 23:33 aldobr i've written a whole language interpreter that way 23:33 aldobr jordan4 made a path finder for his mob 23:33 aldobr ops 23:33 sapier1 plz don't write a new language there are already enough ;-) 23:33 aldobr sorry wrong past 23:33 aldobr http://code.google.com/p/opentik/ 23:33 moltenbot aldobr's link: 23:34 aldobr its a formalization of mikrotik language 23:34 aldobr in a proper parser 23:34 aldobr and virtual machine 23:34 aldobr i was trying to make a mikrotik clone 23:34 aldobr then figured theres no market for this 23:34 hmmmm pascal... 23:34 hmmmm for shame. 23:34 aldobr objectpascal 23:34 hmmmm delphi 23:34 aldobr freepascal 23:34 aldobr #fpc 23:34 RealBadAngel btw, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vaUXHeC5T8 23:34 moltenbot RealBadAngel's link: Evolving neural networks - fish learning to gather food - YouTube 23:35 aldobr its like a breed between pascal and java 23:35 aldobr i've done the whole project in my mind 23:35 aldobr before writing a single line of code 23:35 aldobr at least the core interpreter 23:35 kaeza1 how about we make a Lua mod that calls the Python interpreter that calls the XML parser to load path information from an XML file? (xzzibit.jpg) 23:35 kaeza1 (expecting flame war) 23:35 hmmmm inception 23:35 jin_xi needs moar javascript 23:35 aldobr kaeza1 you need to hold some meetings 23:36 aldobr with the managing personell 23:36 aldobr so they will write the specification of the code 23:36 VanessaE kaeza1: where the XML describes a set of LOGO commands which, when executes, slowly draw out the text for the actual path in move-based RPG style? :-) 23:36 VanessaE executed* 23:36 aldobr they will start with a simple idea 23:37 aldobr and make it bullet proof, amphibious etc 23:37 aldobr then pass to programmers (us) 23:37 aldobr to make it happen 23:37 aldobr (how software writting usually happens in brazil) 23:37 NakedFury under whip treatment 23:38 kaeza1 aldobr: I will have to decline your offer 23:38 RealBadAngel why just us programmers? 23:38 kaeza1 I have too much headaches right now with all my projects 23:38 RealBadAngel there are many more countries having decent programmers 23:41 hmmmm he used it in the sense of the 1st person accusitive case 23:41 hmmmm not the united states 23:56 kaeza wb aldobr 23:57 aldobr hi 23:59 STHGOM HI