IRC log for #minetest, 2012-07-11

Time	Nick	Message
00:04	NakedFury	ok I wanted to help you but the plotz websites print option wont work because I dont have admin permission in this computer to save the file
00:05	marktraceur	I wouldn't have accepted it anyway
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02:56	nonporous	anyone know what the node parameter is_ground_content does?
03:00	Mad	solid?
03:00	Mad	set it false. see if you can fall throught
03:00	Mad	through*
03:05	nonporous	i think the parameter "walkable" is for being able to walk thru
03:05	nonporous	but i'll see what happens if i set it false
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03:09	nonporous	i don't see the effect of setting is_ground_content to false
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04:11	noob_	is anyone on?
04:11	noob_	i have a question about minetest
04:14	noob_	what is a vanilla client
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05:51	marktraceur	noob_: Your mom is a vanilla client. Seriously, she just never asks for the weird stuff. It concerns me.
05:57	VanessaE	heh
06:06	nonporous	i wonder if someone can help me with this
06:06	nonporous	if i register a node with some properties
06:06	nonporous	how do i get those properties out later?
06:07	nonporous	it seems that even if i register a node with a name, description, drawtype, etc.
06:07	nonporous	later on the only things i've really been able to access are node.name, node.param1, and node.param2
06:07	nonporous	(and probably meta data but i haven't tried yet)
06:07	nonporous	node.drawtype for example returns an error
06:08	nonporous	why?
06:08	marktraceur	nonporous: registered_nodes[nodename] should give you something, not sure if it's more than [name, param1, param2]
06:08	nonporous	(sorry, i meant returns nil)
06:08	nonporous	WHY?
06:08	nonporous	hmmm
06:08	marktraceur	nonporous: I don't know why, sorry
06:08	marktraceur	I think I saw something....hold on
06:09	nonporous	the thing is i'm not getting the node from minetest.registered_nodes, i'm getting the node from a callback registration function
06:10	nonporous	(in particular the one that is called whenever a node is punched)
06:10	marktraceur	nonporous: Well, minetest.registered_nodes[node.name] should give you the rest
06:10	nonporous	oh i see what you mean!
06:10	marktraceur	nonporous: Search for "get_nodedef_field" in doc/lua_api.txt
06:10	nonporous	ok so there's two data structures at play here
06:10	marktraceur	It's an example function, mighty helpful I'd say
06:10	marktraceur	Right
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06:11	marktraceur	It's silly to pass around huge tables when three properties will do for most things
06:11	nonporous	yes i see
06:11	nonporous	thanks, that example is just what i needed!
06:11	marktraceur	A lot of modders will write callbacks like "ARE THIS MAI SOOPER COOL NODE? THEN _MAKE IT T3H BIGGER_"
06:11	marktraceur	They don't even need the params
06:12	nonporous	lol
06:12	marktraceur	No doubt celeron assumed that people would have such stupidity, and accounted for it
06:13	nonporous	right
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06:23	nonporous	wait a second why did you say they don't even need the params
06:23	nonporous	i think they do need the params
06:24	nonporous	i think there are two data structures at play: we could call them registered nodes and nodes
06:24	nonporous	a node is a particular instance of a block in the world
06:24	nonporous	so if it has a fluid for example, the params are important because they indicate the fluid level
06:25	nonporous	a corresponding registered node on the other hand is an object that contains attributes common to all instances of nodes of that type
06:25	nonporous	think i'm on the right track?
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07:12	cy1	yay the sinusoidal growth algorithm works great
07:12	cy1	except for generated content, bleh. but that's terrible p. universally
07:12	cy1	anyone want to come on my world? :D
07:12	* marktraceur	is too busy with spheroids
07:14	brobostigon	good morning everyone.
07:14	nonporous	its 3 AM, but good morning i guess
07:15	nonporous	meta data was really done intelligently
07:15	marktraceur	nonporous: Consider that this is an interational communication medium :)
07:15	marktraceur	international*
07:15	nonporous	apparently if you just start manipulating pieces of metadata that don't exist
07:15	nonporous	marktraceur: i recognize that lol, i'm just pointing out my own timezone
07:16	marktraceur	nonporous: Also, Hawaii?
07:16	marktraceur	Or Russia?
07:16	nonporous	marktraceur: US eastern
07:16	cy1	maybe I'll ask when it isn't midnight on the west coast...
07:16	marktraceur	Oh, wrong way :P
07:16	nonporous	yea
07:16	nonporous	anyway
07:16	nonporous	if you just start manipulating pieces of metadata that don't exist
07:16	nonporous	it will create it for that node
07:17	nonporous	so you can just willy nilly invent meta data as you go for any block!
07:19	nonporous	i freaking love this game more for everything i learn
07:20	marktraceur	nonporous: Glad to hear it! :)
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07:24	* darkrose	notices talk of metadata, curtsies while tipping a non-existant hat
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07:30	emspri	Bad_Command i have a gameboom account.
07:30	emspri	what do i have to do now ??
07:41	brobostigon	emspri: good morning, ok, i got your highlight, i have another busy day, so will do so, when i can.
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07:54	* marktraceur	can no longer do spheres
07:54	marktraceur	Good night
07:58	nonporous	night
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08:09	* vicscandl	waves...
08:20	* nonporous	waves back
08:34	nonporous	hmm all the methods of an "InvRef" have something called "listname" as an argument
08:34	nonporous	i can't figure out what listname is supposed to be
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08:45	darkrose	nonporous: inventories contain list's of item stacks, for a chest the name of the list is 'main' for instance
08:45	nonporous	ah so that's what it is
08:46	nonporous	what was it for a player inventory
08:46	nonporous	something like "current"?
08:46	nonporous	oh nope it's also main
08:46	nonporous	darkrose: ok thanks!
08:47	darkrose	yep, np :)
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08:55	nonporous	weird... when i use remove_item on a player inventory, it only works if the item is not selected
08:56	nonporous	(i.e. not in the player's hand)
08:59	nonporous	could this be a minetest glitch? or the item stack in the player's hand actually not a part of the "main" list?
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09:07	Ririshi	Hey
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09:12	jahmke	brobostigon are there other people on your server??
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09:14	emspri	brobostigon are there actualy other people on ur server ???
09:17	nonporous	Is there a way to edit the attributes of a registered node after it has already been registered?
09:18	darkrose	no, you can get them then edit, then register a new node type though
09:22	nonporous	hmm, that wouldn't do
09:22	nonporous	i wonder if there's an alternative methdo
09:22	darkrose	no
09:22	nonporous	basically i'd need to edit the attribute "on_destruct" of every node type
09:23	nonporous	there must be some way to choose what happens when a player destroys a node in general
09:24	darkrose	minetest.register_on_dignode()
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09:25	nonporous	perfect! thank you
09:25	nonporous	"global callback functions"
09:25	nonporous	that's what i was looking for
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09:26	nonporous	the comment says it's depracated and refers me back to on_destruct
09:27	nonporous	does that mean it's going to be removed? :(
09:28	Calinou	it's on_destruct and on_construct now
09:29	darkrose	it's not deprecated, it's gonna stay
09:32	Ririshi\|AFK	Hey guys
09:32	Ririshi	oops.
09:34	nonporous	glad to hear that
09:34	nonporous	are you a developer darkrose?
09:35	darkrose	isn't everyone?
09:35	Ririshi	Sorry I'm testing around a bit.
09:36	Ririshi	yay it works
09:36	Ririshi	sorry XD
09:36	Ririshi	I got a new
09:36	Ririshi	IRC client.
09:37	nonporous	i mean like a core code developer, not just a modder
09:37	nonporous	you seem to... know things
09:38	darkrose	yeah, I did a bit of work on the lua api in the latest release
09:38	nonporous	cool
09:39	nonporous	thanks for your work, i just started learning the modding api today and i'm loving it more every hour
09:39	darkrose	cool :)
09:46	jahmke	Does anyone know a popular server?
09:49	nonporous	I think I need a global version of on_destruct, rather than a global version of after_destruct
09:50	nonporous	So I need something like minetest.register_on_dignode(), except I want the function called before the node is destroyed
09:50	nonporous	because i need to access the node's metadata, and that is lost by the time the node is destroyed
09:51	darkrose	try register_on_punchnode()
09:51	darkrose	it's called when it's first hit, but not completely dug
09:53	nonporous	i've been using that one for other things, but I need something for complete digging
09:53	nonporous	thanks though
09:54	Calinou	<darkrose> isn't everyone?
09:54	Calinou	no _
09:54	Calinou	landmine isn't a developer :P
09:54	Calinou	<Ririshi> I got a new
09:54	Calinou	<Ririshi> IRC client.
09:54	Calinou	> don't use enter as punctuation
09:54	Calinou	> away nicks are bad mkay? Ririshi\|AFK was kicked for being an away nick assclown.
09:54	Calinou	> xchat > all clients
09:55	nonporous	someone is very opinionated lol
09:56	nonporous	darkrose: i may just have to patch a copy of the default mod, adding an on_destruct for each block I care about :/
09:56	darkrose	nonporous: you could use meta:to_table() in on_punchnode, store the table, then look it up on_dignode
09:56	Calinou	:}
09:56	nonporous	darkrose: woah great idea thanks!
09:57	nonporous	darkrose: i should've thought of that
10:01	cornernote	hi
10:01	cornernote	anyone got a server i can join onto ?
10:02	cornernote	we have me and my 2 kids here that are keen to build =)
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10:05	Calinou	cornernote, 95% of servers require application to build
10:05	Calinou	open servers are almost always victims of griefing
10:05	Calinou	cornernote, see the "servers" forum of minetest forum
10:05	cornernote	what do you mean "application to build" ?
10:06	cornernote	i tried to connect to them all, none worked
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10:06	Calinou	some servers are on 0.4, some on 0.3
10:06	Calinou	not all of them are up; it's not because they have a topic they're up
10:07	Calinou	application to build: you have to set a password on the server, THEN request build rights by posting in the server thread.
10:07	Calinou	aka: "graylist"
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10:11	Calinou	http://servers.minetest.ru/
10:11	Calinou	> some servers need to be removed
10:11	Calinou	servers with uptime < 75% should not be shown in the list
10:14	cornernote	cool, thanks!
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10:27	emspri	does someone know a popular server ???
10:31	Calinou	redcrab.suret.net port 30401
10:31	Calinou	latest nightly
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10:33	[12368]	hi
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10:42	Calinou	hi spammer name
10:42	Calinou	hi VanessaE
10:43	emspri	Calinou are there people on that server ??
10:43	Calinou	yes
10:43	Calinou	often
10:43	Calinou	you must request permission to build
10:43	Calinou	and you can ask redcrab to protect areas
10:44	emspri	redcrab can i have interact privs ??
10:44	Calinou	http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1705
10:44	Calinou	-_-
10:45	Calinou	emspri
10:45	Calinou	1) connect to the server
10:45	Calinou	2) set a non-guessable password
10:45	Calinou	3) ask on the forum, it is better
10:45	emspri	ok
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11:04	nonporous	Can anyone help with this issue: using remove_item on an an InvRef consisting of a player inventory only works if the ItemStack is not currently in that player's hands. I can't tell if this is a glitch or if the ItemStack in the player's hands is in some list other than "main"
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11:10	emspri	ah im stuck on the pun stop bots question
11:11	emspri	what is the current stable version of minetest
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11:18	brobostigon	emspri: what do you mean?
11:21	emspri	im on the forums and i want to send a reply but then i get the pun stop bots question and that never ends
11:21	Calinou	do it several times
11:21	Calinou	stable version: 0.3.1
11:21	Calinou	developer: celeron55
11:21	emspri	thanks
11:22	emspri	how can i see if redcrab is here ??
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11:24	cornernote	an ingame recipe wiki would be so cool
11:24	emspri	yeah
11:24	cornernote	its so hard to keep track of all the mods/recipies
11:27	cornernote	im not very familiar with lua/c .. but i can code a little... where would i start if i wanted to make something like that ?
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11:28	cornernote	it could work with just a txt interface to start... you type /recipe [some_item] .. and looks up the recipe and outputs it to the chat
11:28	cornernote	sec, going to find/read some similar mods
11:29	cornernote	sethome mod shows me how to do the command input/output
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11:32	cornernote	http://pastebin.com/HwDAsDWd
11:33	cornernote	where can i see mintest source code ?
11:35	cornernote	found it here.. https://github.com/celeron55/minetest
11:35	cornernote	i'm looking for the code for the /give command
11:37	cisoun	wait for it
11:38	cisoun	https://github.com/celeron55/minetest_game/blob/master/mods/default/init.lua#L1839
11:38	cisoun	here.
11:39	cornernote	sweet, thanks
11:45	cornernote	when loading the item, there is a check like this... "if itemstack:is_empty then" ... what does is_empty mean ?
11:46	darkrose	checks to see if your head is empty, in your case, returning true
11:47	Calinou	lol
11:47	cornernote	and now i have the item loaded, how do i go about finding it's recipe ? (lol, the hard part)
11:47	cisoun	I think, when your inventory is full, you cannot get a new item.
11:47	Calinou	^
11:47	cornernote	ahh, ok i dont need that then
11:48	cornernote	so i have this so far
11:48	cornernote	http://pastebin.com/gbuNjaYR
11:48	cornernote	i can say /recipe XXX .. and it says "so you want the recipe for XXX hey?" .. where XXX is a valid item
11:49	Calinou	cornernote, the harder part is to _tell_ the user the _actual_ crafting recipe
11:49	Calinou	like "X = wood O = sticks" then does some ascii art
11:50	Calinou	probably impossible
11:51	cornernote	i'll just call it default:wood
11:51	cornernote	output like this...
11:51	Calinou	think of the end user
11:51	cornernote	1=default:wood, 2=default:wood, 3=default:wood, 4=empty, 5=default:stick
11:51	cornernote	i am the end user! =)
11:52	cornernote	output can be better in a later version, some kind of GUI would be great
11:52	Calinou	noone will understand that
11:52	Calinou	popping up a GUI, would, yes, be very nice
11:52	cornernote	but v0.1alpha will be easier to code for me with text
11:53	cornernote	and its only for me
11:53	cornernote	and i will understand the output
11:53	cornernote	once i have that, i'll try to make a gui .. but i have no idea how to start with that
11:54	cornernote	so, any tips on how i can get the recipe in the lua file ?
11:55	Calinou	no
11:55	* Calinou	isn't an expert lua coder
11:56	cornernote	do you know where the class for blocks is defined ?
11:56	cornernote	maybe i can stumble through the api
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11:58	cisoun	cornernote: https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/blob/master/doc/lua_api.txt
11:58	cisoun	did you check this file ?
12:01	cornernote	was just reading that =)
12:01	cornernote	i dont think it will help, but it may lead me on the right path
12:01	cornernote	well, it will help, but it wont tell me the magic answer =)
12:03	* Calinou	shall continue the french translation of the lua API
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12:05	lokke	hello world
12:06	lokke	just a question.. how do i play testmine in singlieplayer?
12:07	cisoun	Just launch the game, type your name and leave the address blank then "Start Game"
12:08	cisoun	type "/grant singleplayer all" during the game if you want to have all grants in singleplayer.
12:12	lokke	thanks ;)
12:13	cornernote	i think the problem may be that there may be more than one way to craft any one item
12:14	cornernote	additionally, there are several crafting methods (craft/cook/etc)
12:21	Calinou	ligne 450! :D
12:22	Calinou	lokke, it's minetest not testmine
12:22	Calinou	are you playing 0.3.1 or the 0.4 dev version?
12:22	cornernote	i see from creative_inventory how i can kinda do a gui, but still stuck on how to get the recipe
12:23	Calinou	creative mode sucks :P
12:25	brobostigon	wow, inside 24hours, my minetest server has doubled in ram usage.
12:26		Anelisa joined #minetest
12:26	Anelisa	Coucou ! :)
12:27	jahmke	bonjour XD
12:32	brobostigon	hmm, ram is tight now, :(
12:34	brobostigon	there must be a solution, or it could go tits up.
12:36	brobostigon	ok, restarting the server solved the issue.
12:37	brobostigon	freed up 38% of the ram, uses 2% now.
12:44	cornernote	what does this mean: TextureSource::buildMainAtlas(): Atlas is full, not adding more textures
12:45	Calinou	hi Anelisa
12:45	Calinou	cornernote, texture atlas is full.
12:45	Anelisa	Calinou, je trouve pas le dossier pour les mods !!! ;'(
12:45	Calinou	a texture atlas is a large texture created by the engine to speed things up
12:45	Calinou	you can disable it if it causes graphic glitches
12:46	Calinou	Anelisa, sur une version packagÃ©e sur linux:
12:46	Calinou	~/.minetest/mods/minetest
12:47	Calinou	(ctrl+L dans nautilus pour y accÃ©der, tape ce chemin)
12:47	Calinou	ou ctrl+H pour montrer les dossiers cachÃ©s
12:47	Anelisa	oups
12:47	Anelisa	une gaff
12:48	Anelisa	#minetest
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12:52	brobostigon	emspri: did my pub get lava'd again ?
12:53	Calinou	http://paste.ubuntu.com/1086131/
12:53	Calinou	Anelisa, ^
12:53	Calinou	AndrewPH, oh hi :3 </unban>
12:54	* brobostigon	is alittle frustrated.
12:58		Anelisa2 joined #minetest
12:58	Anelisa2	re
12:58	Anelisa2	je suis Anelisa...
12:58	Calinou	on sait
12:58	Calinou	/nick Anelisa
12:58	Anelisa	merci
12:59	Anelisa	<Calinou> ~/.minetest/mods/minetest
12:59	Anelisa	<Calinou> (ctrl+L dans nautilus pour y accÃ©der, tape ce chemin)
12:59	Anelisa	<Calinou> ou ctrl+H pour montrer les dossiers cachÃ©s dans le terminal ?
12:59	Calinou	non, dans nautilus
12:59	Calinou	> gestionnaire de fichiers ^^
12:59	Anelisa	ok je regarde
12:59	Calinou	(celui par dÃ©faut d'ubuntu)
13:00	Anelisa	ok
13:00	Anelisa	ben il est pas installÃ©... u_u
13:00	Anelisa	ah si
13:01	Calinou	^^
13:02	Anelisa	quelle bÃªte suis-je ?! Lol, c'est bon merci
13:02	Calinou	de rien
13:02	cornernote	can i make the atlas bigger ?
13:02	cornernote	is it cos i have too many mods ?
13:03	Calinou	no, you can't
13:03	Calinou	just ignore the erorr
13:03	Calinou	error*
13:03	cornernote	ok
13:03	nonporous	Can anyone help with this issue: using remove_item on an an InvRef consisting of a player inventory only works if the ItemStack is not currently in that player's hands. I can't tell if this is a glitch or if the ItemStack in the player's hands is in some list other than "main"
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13:04	cornernote	if i am in a box, i can use set_stack() to put something into one of the box fields... how do i remove something from a field ?
13:04	Calinou	"box" > chest
13:04	Calinou	don't name them boxes :x
13:05	cornernote	an "inventory"
13:06	cornernote	=)
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13:06	Anelisa	comment je fait pour Ãªtre admin en solo et que y'a plus de monstres ?
13:08	Calinou	plus de monstres dans la 0.4
13:08	Calinou	tu es dÃ©jÃ admin en solo, mais pour voler, tape:
13:08	Calinou	/grant singleplayer all
13:09	Calinou	si tu as dÃ©marrÃ© ta partie solo depuis le menu "advanced", tape:
13:09	Calinou	/grant ton_pseudo all
13:09	Calinou	(remplace ton_pseudo Ã©videmment)
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13:13	Anelisa	les mods marchent pas ! ;'(
13:13	Anelisa	plus de monstres dans la 0.4 plus du tout ?! :O
13:22	Calinou	plus du tout pour le moment
13:22	Calinou	ils seront rajoutÃ©s avant la sortie d'une version stable
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13:25	Anelisa	ah.. ouinn
13:26	Anelisa	La version 0.4 est encore en modifications ?
13:26	Calinou	oui, en dÃ©veloppement
13:28	Anelisa	>__<
13:28	Anelisa	c'est quoi les commandes pour me donner par ex 99 de cobble ou quoi ?
13:39	cisoun	/giveme default:cobble 99 je crois
13:42	Anelisa	ok
13:42	Anelisa	merci
13:43	Anelisa	cannot give an unknown item
13:43	Anelisa	u_u
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13:44	Calinou	Anelisa, /giveme cobble 99
13:44	Calinou	plus court et Ã§a marche
13:45	Anelisa	lol
13:45	Calinou	pour un stack presque infini: /giveme cobble -1
13:47	Anelisa	ok merci ! :)
13:50	Anelisa	maintenant j'ai une vraie ville ! lol
13:57	Anelisa	pour le coal comment je fait ?
13:57	Calinou	/giveme lump_of_coal quantitÃ©
13:57	Calinou	en remplaÃ§ant quantitÃ© par la quantitÃ© que tu veux ^^
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13:59	Anelisa	et les bÃ¢tons (stick) x) ^^
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14:14	Anelisa	je suis la plus riche de mon village !! hÃ©hÃ© (normal y'a que moi.
14:14	Anelisa	))
14:15	brobostigon	http://taylorworld.me.uk/wiki/doku.php/todo
14:26	cornernote	hi all, i am making my 1st mod... its an info sign that will (eventually) show you the recipe to make any ingame item... i have it to the point where i can make a sign, open the sign (like a chest), move stuff around, etc...
14:27	cornernote	looking really nice so far... now all i need is to get the code to find the input items for a recipe
14:30	cornernote	whats the difference between a node and a craftitem ?
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14:43	brobostigon	does that wiki page work fine?
14:46	cornernote	works for me
14:46	brobostigon	good, thank you.
14:50	cornernote	ok, after reading a bit of source code, i think you cannot tell how to craft an item
14:50	cornernote	there is no method to list all the crafts
14:51	cornernote	plus, even if there were... there may be multiple ways to make an item
14:51	cornernote	thats a real shame, an ingame build helper would have been really nice
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14:57	cornernote	hi VanessaE, wondering if you might have a minute to help me with a mod i am trying to make ?
14:58	VanessaE	I can try but I dunno how much help I'll be, I literally just got out of bed :-)
14:58	VanessaE	rubs eyes
14:58	cornernote	basically i want to have a mod that shows the recipe for a given item
14:58	cornernote	i have done the interface, etc... i just dont know how i can see a list of registered recipies
14:59	cornernote	i need that so i can iterate over them to find which one makes the requested item
14:59	VanessaE	oh you've got me there - that goes beyond anything I've done so far
14:59	cornernote	dang
14:59	VanessaE	(and we DO need a mod like this, btw - I'
14:59	VanessaE	m glad you're working on it!)
14:59	cornernote	its my 1st mod
15:00	cornernote	i have it working, except it cant tell you a recipe... would you like to see it ?
15:01	VanessaE	I'll pass for now - I'm too bleary right now to understand a "Hello World" program, much less something useful ;-)
15:01	cornernote	i might ask in the forums, see if anyone has any ideas
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15:05	VanessaE	yeah, better to do that - you'll get a better answer that way
15:06	darkrose	well, either way the answer will be "it can't be done with the current api"
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15:15	jordach	sup
15:15	Anelisa	re
15:17	cornernote	darkrose, ok thats what i thought
15:17	cornernote	dang :(
15:18	cornernote	i made a forum post anyway
15:18	cornernote	http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=30726
15:18	cornernote	perhaps 0.5 will allow it =)
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15:19	cornernote	the other way i can do it (kinda messy) is by parsing the other LUA files
15:19	VanessaE	sounds like a good opportunity for someone to make a patch :-)
15:19	cornernote	do a regex to pull out all the register_craft function calls
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15:20	VanessaE	yeah but how do you get a list of lua files to read in the first place?
15:20	cornernote	theres no function to list files in a folder ?
15:20	VanessaE	I mean, they're not exactly all stored in the same place
15:20	cornernote	just recurcively find *.lua in the nietest folder
15:21	cornernote	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5303174/get-list-of-directory-in-a-lua
15:21	VanessaE	you have to include run-in-place installs, system installs, and both linux and windows variants
15:21	cornernote	yeah, its messy
15:22	Calinou	<cornernote> do a regex to pull out all the register_craft function calls
15:22	Calinou	;8;
15:22	Calinou	;_;*
15:22	Calinou	DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE A SIMPLE LUA MOD
15:22	Calinou	TALKS ABOUT REGEXES
15:22	Calinou	MEME!
15:22	cornernote	i know regex, i dont know lua
15:22	cornernote	and i did make a simple mod
15:22	cornernote	i just cant get a list of the crafts, mostly because there is no api for it =)
15:25	cornernote	if i can regex the files, i will be left with a string like this.... minetest.register_craft({...}) then i make it a string like this {...}
15:25	Calinou	inb4 archlinux
15:25	cornernote	then once i have that, i can just define all of them in a local array
15:26	cornernote	not too complex, but still messy
15:26	VanessaE	the problem is getting the list of all lua files from all directories the current install of minetest is compiled to scan for
15:27		Topic for #minetest is now Please be patient when asking questions; someone may not be around. \| Main website: http://minetest.net \| Development channel: #minetest-delta \| Rule: Calinou will make jokes at your expense.
15:27	VanessaE	e.g. /usr/local/share or /usr/share or ~/.minetest/mods/minetest or whatever run-in-place versions use, or whatever windows uses :-)
15:27	cornernote	what about if the mod doesnt support external folders... i think it will still be useful
15:27	Calinou	lol jordach
15:27		Topic for #minetest is now Please be patient when asking questions; someone may not be around. \| Main website: http://minetest.net \| Development channel: #minetest-delta
15:27		Topic for #minetest is now Please be patient when asking questions; someone may not be around. \| Main website: http://minetest.net \| Development channel: #minetest-delta
15:27	Calinou	:{
15:27	jordach	double click much
15:27	cornernote	or, you can put a list of folders that contain mods into an ini file
15:27	cornernote	something like that
15:28	VanessaE	cornernote: no, that won't work - such a mod needs to be transparent. remember your audience :-)
15:28	VanessaE	(some of these people can't even figure out how to install a mod, must less build a list of them)
15:28	VanessaE	s/must/much/
15:28	cornernote	audience is the server admin... they should know where they put mods, right ?
15:29	VanessaE	everyone's their own server admin also, since the game runs in single-player mode as well
15:30	cornernote	single players should have put all their mods into mods/minetest .. which a place my mod will look by default
15:30	VanessaE	right, but what about the system-wide stuff?
15:30	VanessaE	a number of the game's default items are in fact mods
15:31	cornernote	builtin\*.lua
15:31	VanessaE	no
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15:31	cornernote	where do they live ?
15:31	cornernote	games\minimal\mods ?
15:31	VanessaE	on my box, one location is /usr/local/share/minetest/games/minetest_game/mods//.lua
15:32	Anelisa	re
15:32	Anelisa	Calinou les mods marchent pas !!
15:32	cornernote	if i scan minetest/* recursive it will find those
15:32	Calinou	message d'erreur?
15:32	Anelisa	nan rien
15:32	VanessaE	yes, that would work... now what about windows? :-)
15:32	Calinou	FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUCK
15:32	Calinou	access violation on chat console open
15:32	Calinou	this is very rare usually
15:33	VanessaE	Calinou: F10 crash?
15:33	Calinou	F8 for me
15:33	VanessaE	bah
15:33	Calinou	I said access violation not segfault
15:33	Calinou	this issue is much more common on linux than on windows
15:33	VanessaE	this is why it bugs me so much that c55 took off
15:33	VanessaE	this is a bad bug.
15:33	VanessaE	and makes it impossible to play the game on a high-chat-activity server
15:33	cornernote	VanessaE, isnt it the same folder path on windows ?
15:34	VanessaE	cornernote: no
15:34	VanessaE	cornernote: on windows it could be pretty much anywhere
15:34	NakedFury	I have windows tell me
15:34	VanessaE	(linux too, but usually /usr/share or /usr/local/share )
15:35	cornernote	then the person installing mods into c:\anywhere instead of minetest\* wont see the mods outside of minetest\* ... unless they add the paths to the mod ini file
15:35	VanessaE	so what you have to do is execute some function that gives you the parent directory of your minetest install, and another that returns your minetest user config path, and scan those
15:35	Calinou	you can get the modpath cornernote
15:35	Calinou	minetest.get_modpath() iirc
15:35	Calinou	see the doc
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15:37	VanessaE	s/doc/the travesty that is the minetest API/
15:37	VanessaE	:-)
15:37	cornernote	yeah, i read through that... its not so bad VanessaE
15:37	jordach	VanessaE, WANTING 77 WOOL?
15:38	cornernote	a little html would brighten it up a little =)
15:38	darkrose	eww
15:38	jordach	darkrose, its going to use the unified dyes mod
15:38	VanessaE	cornernote: I've read through it too...and it's a fucking mess
15:38	jordach	WITH DEPENDS>TXT
15:39	VanessaE	jordach: you switch to unified dyes and I'll make more textures for my photorealistic pack :-)
15:39	jordach	LOOKS LIKE 77 then
15:39	VanessaE	but as I recall you're pretty dead-set on not using it (depends!!!!!!!!) so fuck it :)
15:40	VanessaE	plus you're now competing with bas080, who wants to do a cotton mod of a similar style as wool, and also with unifieddyes for the colors :-)
15:42	NakedFury	where does the cotton come from?
15:42	VanessaE	the cotton flower from the flowers mod.
15:42	NakedFury	ok
15:42	marktraceur	VanessaE: I put my mientest install in /dev/null now I cant find it what I do!?!?!??!??!
15:43	VanessaE	marktraceur: hahahah
15:43	Calinou	see the the travesty that is the minetest API
15:43	Calinou	THE THE
15:43	cornernote	restore using rm / -rf
15:43	VanessaE	:P
15:43	Calinou	y u put arguments after?
15:44	cornernote	bad habbit
15:44	jordach	oh and btw: wool will make use of cotton flowers instead of my crappy one
15:44	cornernote	fails on bsd i think
15:44	marktraceur	cornernote: Thanks, I'll one day give you huge percentages to transfer money out of my deceased father's royal treasury in a rebelling country
15:44	jordach	marktraceur, if thats a film ref. get out
15:44	cornernote	and a penis enlargment ?
15:44	jordach	HA!
15:45	marktraceur	jordach: No, it's a Nigerian scammer reference
15:45	Calinou	BSD sucks
15:45	jordach	mark, FUUUUUUU---
15:45	cornernote	bsd has its place, but not on my servers =)
15:45	marktraceur	cornernote: No, that's the good stuff. You'd have to like, save my cat's life
15:46	marktraceur	I'll let you know when I get a cat and it's in danger
15:46	cornernote	do you think if i refresh my forum post many times it will increase the chance someone will reply ?
15:46	Calinou	no
15:46	jordach	cornernote, did you check the subscribe checkbox when making the topic
15:46	Calinou	bumping is a bad habit, too
15:47	marktraceur	cornernote: Increased resolution of data, but bigger chance the server will go down. I'd say it's about even.
15:47	cornernote	yes, im subscribed.. just impatient =) .. i REALLY want an ingame craft viewer
15:47	Anelisa	Calinou je fait comment ??
15:47	Calinou	this is where you should stop being lazy and use C++ instead, cornernote
15:47	Calinou	Anelisa, pour faire quoi?
15:47	Anelisa	ben les mods
15:47	Anelisa	...
15:48	cornernote	extend the api ?
15:48	Calinou	Anelisa, ah
15:48	marktraceur	cornernote: If you can make something general that allows for creating windows, that'd be awesome :)
15:48	cornernote	but, lol, im running on windows and i dont know how to compile
15:48	Calinou	Anelisa, tu as dÃ©marrÃ© le jeu "minetest_game", pas "minimal"?
15:48	NakedFury	compiling on windows is a bitch
15:48	Anelisa	oui
15:48	jordach	OH YES
15:48	Calinou	+1
15:48	jordach	I FRICKIN IS
15:48	Anelisa	minetest__game
15:48	Calinou	cornernote, thought you were on harshlinux or such
15:48	Calinou	:/
15:48	marktraceur	jordach: Sticky shift key today?
15:49	cornernote	i'll have to setup my linux box and have a twiddle... dont know that i can make a window viewer tho...
15:49	NakedFury	god microsoft sucks, you would have thought they would have improved compiling by now
15:49	jordach	Calinou, when will the jokes at theyre expense stop?
15:49	Calinou	"If your minetest is a system-wide installed version on Linux your folder is something like (create if needed):
15:49	Calinou	~/.minetest/mods/minetest/"
15:49	Calinou	NakedFury, they do, but you're still forced to buy their OS sadly
15:49	Calinou	(and for drivers too, /me points at nvidia)
15:49	VanessaE	back
15:49	Calinou	kcab
15:49	jordach	marktraceur, shift key is fine: just raging like normal
15:51	cornernote	is there any way to override/extend the minetest.register_craft method ?
15:51	Anelisa	je les ai mis dedans
15:51	marktraceur	cornernote: I guess you could override it, but I wouldn't suggest that
15:51	VanessaE	there's nothing wrong with bumping a thread if you're adding something useful to it (like status updates)
15:52	Calinou	Anelisa, ta structure ressemble bien Ã : ~/.minetest/mods/minetest/moreblocks/init.lua par exemple?
15:52	Anelisa	oui
15:52	cornernote	marktraceur - in lua, without having to re-compile ?
15:52	marktraceur	cornernote: Yep
15:52	cornernote	oh oh, now im excited
15:52	marktraceur	minetest.register_craft = function (arguments) end
15:52	cornernote	why wouldn't you recommend it ?
15:52	marktraceur	(empty function)
15:53	cornernote	how do i get that to happen before any other mod loads ?
15:53	marktraceur	cornernote: Because you'd need to back up the original, then re-instantiate it when you're done
15:53	marktraceur	Ha, not possible
15:53	cornernote	name my mod aaa ?
15:53	marktraceur	(without c++)
15:53	Calinou	name it bbb
15:53	cornernote	ok, then that seems like not an option
15:53	marktraceur	cornernote: I think aaa might still load last, but I'm not totally sure how the order goes
15:54	cornernote	another option is to have "supported" mods... so every mod has to have the minetest.register_craft calls copied to a similar method
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15:55	marktraceur	cornernote: Right. So make a library, basically, and have mod authors depend on it
15:55	* marktraceur	wonders why this doesn't happen more often
15:55	Anelisa	...
15:55	cornernote	they dont have to depend on it, but they can "hook into it"
15:55	marktraceur	Perhaps because people show no interest in package management
15:55	cornernote	eg, not a dependancy, more of an option
15:56	marktraceur	cornernote: No, because if you don't depend on it, it might load later
15:56	cornernote	ahh, ok and i need to have my.register_craft function definition loaded before they call it
15:56	marktraceur	Yes.
15:57	cornernote	it doesnt load all the files, then exec.. ?
15:57	marktraceur	And dependencies will always load first :)
15:57	marktraceur	No, of course not
15:57	cornernote	sorry, im a php coder
15:57	cornernote	so im used to all kinds of things that arent "normal" in most languages
15:58	cornernote	this works just fine for me: myrun(); function myrun(){ echo 'hello world'; } =)
15:58	marktraceur	cornernote: :) I'm getting used to PHP, it's an interesting language
15:58	jordach	because its a lazy language
15:58	darkrose	s/interesting/insane/
15:59	marktraceur	darkrose: Are insane people not sometimes interesting? :)
15:59	cornernote	if you havent used it, yiiframework - awesome FW for php
15:59	marktraceur	cornernote: I have the ultimate framework, MediaWiki
16:01	cornernote	marktraceur, if the other mod uses depends, and mine loads 1st... then i can override minetest.register_craft ... right ?
16:01	cornernote	no need for my.register_craft()
16:02	marktraceur	cornernote: Yes, but you'd need to put it back or risk breaking everything
16:02	cornernote	i dont think i can... theres no "after depends"
16:02	marktraceur	(or at least, you could put in a call to the original function)
16:02	cornernote	yes, i will do that =)
16:03	marktraceur	It would be so much better to not override main functions, though
16:03	cornernote	how do i call the original function ?
16:03	cornernote	minetest.register_craft = function (options) minetest.register_craft(options) end
16:04	cornernote	wouldnt that just make an infinite loop ?
16:04	marktraceur	Yes
16:04	marktraceur	cornernote: local mtrc_back = minetest.register_craft
16:04	marktraceur	Then call mtrc_back inside of your function
16:06	Anelisa	Calinou ??
16:07	cornernote	sweet!, it works
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16:17	cornernote	sorry for dumb lua questions... if i have an array like this option={myvar='test123'} .. how do i refer to the value of myvar ? option['myvar'], option:myvar, ?
16:18	Calinou	IMPORT ESSAY
16:18	jordach	cornernote, /join #minetest-mods
16:19	cornernote	thanks
16:19	Anelisa	CALINOU, je fait comment pour faire un serveur ??
16:19	Calinou	-_-
16:20	Calinou	> pour faire un serveur public, faut ouvrir des ports
16:20	Calinou	si tu ne sais pas ouvrir des ports, passe ton chemin
16:20	Calinou	je ne connais pas ton routeur
16:23	Anelisa	xD
16:23	Anelisa	la tronche ! xDD
16:25	Anelisa	pourquoi c'est pas plus simple ?
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16:40	Calinou	parce que
16:40	Calinou	sinon tout le monde pourrait se connecter Ã la machine
16:40	Calinou	c'est pour Ã§a qu'il faut ouvrir des ports
16:40	Calinou	Ã ta machine*
16:45	Anelisa	u_u
16:50	Anelisa	un petit vent
16:55	VanessaE	jordach: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/colors.txt
16:55	VanessaE	jordach: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/listcolors.sh
17:06	Anelisa	Calinou regarde Ã§a : http://hpics.li/3940ce5
17:06	Anelisa	Tu en penses quoi ,
17:06	Anelisa	??
17:10	Calinou	et?
17:12	Anelisa	tu en penses quoi ? (je l'ai fait)
17:13	Anelisa	et Ã§a : http://hpics.li/f7dbe35 ? lol
17:16	Calinou	mouais, sympa ^^
17:16	* Calinou	n'est pas trÃ¨s "anime"
17:16	Anelisa	x)
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17:21	marktraceur	New favorite thing: Spheres
17:21	Anelisa	mais j'ai que Ã§apour la plupart de mes commandes.. ^^
17:22	marktraceur	A bitch to make, but damned if they don't look awesome when you're done
17:22	Anelisa	http://hpics.li/f4bd440 < by me
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17:32	Anelisa	...
17:33	Calinou	point point point
17:35	Anelisa	lol
17:35	Calinou	olo
17:35	Anelisa	si tu veux commander une signa's, avatar, ou header, dit je suis Ã disposition ! :)
17:35	jordach	,.,//z,/,/z.z/,/z.,/.,,.z,./,/\\\,/\,/,\//\,/.\,\.,\/,\,/,\,.\/,\/\,/,\/,\/.,./\,./\,,\.,.\/.\/.,\/,\/.,/.\,/.\,/,\,.\,,\/ Calinou try that
17:36	* Calinou	a dÃ©jÃ son avatar, voir les forums
17:36	marktraceur	Oh god why
17:36	* Anelisa	sais dÃ©jÃ mais une signa's serait bien, nan ? /SORT/
17:36	Calinou	you don't say, marktraceur?
17:36	* Calinou	a dÃ©jÃ sa signature, voir les forums
17:36	marktraceur	Calinou: The above gibberish was shocking
17:38	* Anelisa	sais mais si les BBCodes seraient activÃ©s on aurait pu les mettre dans un spoiler, nan ? x)
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17:40	NakedFury	is it possible to have some items that can only be crafted using a special table or workstation?
17:42	Calinou	see darkrose's mod... maybe, dunno
17:42	Anelisa	point point poinr
17:42	Anelisa	point
17:43	marktraceur	NakedFury: You could very easily not register the craft recipe but check the layout in an inventory for your valid recipe
17:45	darkrose	use my workbench mod, and make it a 4x4 or 5x5 recipe
17:46	NakedFury	so for now the only way would be to use a bigger work area and make the recipes bigger
17:46	marktraceur	darkrose: Do you use the normal registered crafting recipes?
17:46	darkrose	yes
17:46	marktraceur	NakedFury: No
17:47	Anelisa	okayy..
17:47	marktraceur	(darkrose, I hope you were saying "yes" to me and not to his question)
17:47	darkrose	to both
17:47	marktraceur	But it's not the only way
17:47	darkrose	:p
17:47	marktraceur	NakedFury: You could very easily not register the craft recipe but check the layout in an inventory for your valid recipe
17:48	marktraceur	I mean, repetition is a little irritating, but if it gets the point across
17:49	NakedFury	I have no idea how to do that
17:50	marktraceur	NakedFury: Use darkrose's mod as a base
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17:50	marktraceur	She has to check an inventory for valid craft recipes, then output the result
17:50	marktraceur	You can do that, but skip the test for validity and just check your own table of valid recipes
17:51	marktraceur	Or if you only have one, then just check for that one
17:51	Anelisa	.___.
17:51	NakedFury	reading it now
17:51	marktraceur	Anelisa: Need some help?
17:52	Anelisa	marktraceur i need help, i want make a texture pack with gimp (it's my favourite) can you help me ?
17:52	marktraceur	Anelisa: Sadly, no. VanessaE might, she's not here right now
17:53	Anelisa	ok....
17:53	marktraceur	Er.....maybe check back later
17:53	marktraceur	Anelisa: Unless there's some specific problem you're having
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19:21	cornernote	released my module - ingame recipe viewer - http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=30726
19:22	cornernote	now my kids can stop asking "how do i build {insert thing}"
19:23	Calinou	lol, nice
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19:24	Calinou	great!
19:24	Calinou	you need a better recipe probably
19:24	Calinou	suggestion: 9 sticks, each in one slot
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19:27	cornernote	i like the question mark shape
19:27	cornernote	why one in each slot? what does it represent ?
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19:35	Calinou	a square of sticks :d
19:35	Calinou	your question mark does not look like a question mark at al
19:35	Calinou	or: a single dirt block? :D
19:36	Calinou	what newbies first try to do ^
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19:45	cornernote	Calinou, yeah i thought about that .. 1 dirt block
19:45	cornernote	but its kinda ... well.. too simple
19:46	marktraceur	cornernote: What else are you going to craft with a dirt block?
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19:56	Calinou	inb4 someone makes mod to make dyes with dirt
19:56	Calinou	"it doesn't make sense, but I'll stick with it."
19:56	jordach	sorry Calinou already did that
19:57	marktraceur	jordach: 1 dirt block -> brown dye?
19:57	jordach	remember my classic wool mod
19:57	jordach	dirt + white wool = brown wool
19:58	marktraceur	jordach: But we're talking about a single dirt block. Nobody will use that for anything. Right?
19:58	marktraceur	Oh, idea: 1 dirt block -> Bad coffee
19:58	jordach	yes
19:59	jordach	i know, one dirt block = one grass block
19:59	marktraceur	Meh
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20:43	jordach	ngiht
20:45	marktraceur	VanessaE: I think Anelise wanted you. Gone now, but meh
20:46	VanessaE	oh fine, Anelise and Jordach both sign off when I'm ready to sign on. go figure.
20:46	VanessaE	did you see if jordach got my links re: colors.txt and the script for it?
20:46	VanessaE	also, hi :-)
20:48	marktraceur	VanessaE: Yeah, he's been working on it
20:48	marktraceur	And hi back!
20:48	VanessaE	ok cool
20:49	VanessaE	hope those links were to his liking :-)
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20:55	nonporous	Can anyone help with this issue: using remove_item on an an InvRef consisting of a player inventory only works if the ItemStack is not currently in that player's hands. I can't tell if this is a glitch or if the ItemStack in the player's hands is in some list other than "main"
20:56	VanessaE	dunno
20:56	marktraceur	nonporous: That's definitely a bug, if someone else can reproduce
20:56	* marktraceur	goes back to other things
20:57		saschaheylik joined #minetest
20:57	nonporous	marktraceur: hmm ok, is there a good place to report it?
20:58	marktraceur	nonporous: http://github.com/celeron55/minetest/issues
20:58	marktraceur	But don't expect it to get solved super-quickly
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21:07	VanessaE	damn it, that script I posted is wrong
21:13	VanessaE	there. corrected and posted.
21:13	VanessaE	http://minetest.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=28399
21:38	VanessaE	marktraceur: you still haven't upgraded to the more recent junglegrass ;-)
21:38	VanessaE	my front yard looks like it hasn't been mowed in a year ;-)
21:41		fanick joined #minetest
21:42	marktraceur	I knowwww
21:42	marktraceur	VanessaE: Tonight, I think, should be a good time for it
21:43	marktraceur	I'm in between projects in-game, and have some time
21:43	VanessaE	it'll need time to grow and kill off all the excess grass :-)
21:43	marktraceur	I know
21:43	marktraceur	But I have work
21:43	VanessaE	</nag>
21:43	marktraceur	I don't like it any more than you do :P
21:44	* marktraceur	would gladly work on minetest mods/servers/core patches if he could get paid for it
21:44	VanessaE	hah! dream on :-)
21:44	marktraceur	I will, I will
21:44	* marktraceur	looks at Kickstarter
21:44	marktraceur	Meh, maybe later
21:45	marktraceur	Anyway, 3 more hours, then I'll get quick dinner, then I'll do junglegrass, flowers, and farming in a better way
21:46	VanessaE	hahaha - I think I need to add something to the mod where grass will only grow in the presence of full sunlight and only at Y >= 0 :-)
21:46	marktraceur	(since your copy of junglegrass still has no COPYING files and, IIRC, still does randomness inside the ABM, I'll just modify my own)
21:46	VanessaE	(a piece grew in a cavern below my 'house' :-) )
21:46	marktraceur	nod
21:48	marktraceur	I can throw that in when I make my changes, if you don't mind
21:49	VanessaE	er, ok
22:03	marktraceur	Though I think sunlight has changed
22:04	VanessaE	how so?
22:04	VanessaE	(i've only barely looked into lighting in the game(
22:04	marktraceur	Well, when I did the farming mod
22:05	marktraceur	I was testing and all, but I only ever got ~14 light for any node above ground
22:05	marktraceur	So I wound up lowering the requirement to 12 light
22:08	VanessaE	it still only goes to 14 I think doesnt it?
22:08	marktraceur	Might be
22:08	marktraceur	The docs say up to 15
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22:12	bas080	Vines mod that actually looks and functions like vines do
22:13	bas080	And can also craft a rope
22:13	bas080	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/419967/vines/vines.zip
22:13	bas080	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/419967/vines/Screenshot%20-%2007122012%20-%2012%3A08%3A19%20AM.png
22:13	bas080	screenshots^^^
22:13	bas080	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/419967/vines/Screenshot%20-%2007122012%20-%2012%3A10%3A11%20AM.png
22:13	marktraceur	bas080: Can you please put it on a code hosting site? It makes things a lot easier for everyone.
22:13	FreeFull	Cool
22:14	FreeFull	Do they work like ladders?
22:14	bas080	it is on github. will make own repo later
22:14	bas080	yes. But they dropdown ones rope block is placed
22:14	marktraceur	bas080: Better to link there, then, and not dropbox.
22:14	marktraceur	Especially since, at GitHub, we can get a tarball rather than a zip.
22:15	bas080	marktraceur: For my own security?
22:15	marktraceur	bas080: No, for the rest of us
22:15	bas080	will do
22:15	marktraceur	bas080: For your own security, you should not use dropbox, but that damage appears to have been done
22:16	bas080	damn, that sounds drastic
22:16	marktraceur	bas080: Not particularly, considering the huge number of backup options that don't deny you digital freedom
22:19	VanessaE	this the part where calinou would make some smartass FOSS-related remark ;-)
22:20	marktraceur	True
22:21	marktraceur	bas080: Calinou is a troll, and a frequent liar. If you, too, are a troll and frequent liar, it does you no harm to continue using Dropbox, and you should probably commence insulting me.
22:22	VanessaE	he makes good mods though
22:23	VanessaE	(sounds like we need a variant of the Hot/Crazy scale ;-) )
22:24	marktraceur	VanessaE: Somewhat irrelevant to the current conversation, I'm afraid
22:24	VanessaE	truw
22:24	VanessaE	true
22:24	bas080	https://github.com/bas080/vines
22:24	VanessaE	I assume you get the Hot/Crazy reference?
22:25	bas080	i hate you marktraceur. you hurt my fellings. i would never troll
22:25	marktraceur	bas080: I'm glad to hear it
22:25	marktraceur	VanessaE: HIMYM?
22:25	VanessaE	yes
22:25	marktraceur	I figured
22:25	marktraceur	Most awesome things come from there
22:27	marktraceur	bas080: I wasn't calling you a troll, I was presenting you with the facts
22:27	bas080	I just like games bra
22:28	marktraceur	bas080: That likely means you don't care about your digital freedom, so continue using Dropbox, we'll round you all up into internment camps with gaming rigs soon enough
22:28	bas080	so github is safe?
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22:29	marktraceur	bas080: Not particularly, no, but better than Dropbox in that you don't need to use a non-free client to access it
22:30	Bad_Command	eh, you can interact with dropbox exclusively via their web interface
22:30	marktraceur	Bad_Command: And their web interface is licensed permissively?
22:31	Bad_Command	It is a service
22:31	Bad_Command	You don't have to be in an internment camp to use it, any modern browser will work
22:31	Bad_Command	Internment camps are fun though. Whee.
22:32	marktraceur	Bad_Command: So what you're saying is, you can't access Dropbox without their non-free client?
22:32	Bad_Command	Uh, no, I am saying the exact opposite.
22:32	marktraceur	Bad_Command: So their web interface is licensed permissively?
22:32	Bad_Command	No, that's you trying to make a false dichotomy
22:33	marktraceur	Bad_Command: No, JavaScript is software just like anything else, so unless the answer is "yes", you're using their non-free code to access the service
22:33	Bad_Command	I didn't say it uses javascript
22:33	marktraceur	Bad_Command: I doubt it doesn't
22:33	marktraceur	And in any case, their backend is totally shrouded in mystery, so the client-side problems are only the tip of the iceberg
22:34	Kray	"problems"
22:34	Bad_Command	So is github's backend
22:34	Bad_Command	Lets see that code
22:34	marktraceur	Bad_Command: I agree. So I use Gitorious.
22:35	marktraceur	Kray: You're saying that someone running secret processes on your computer isn't something to be concerned about?
22:35	marktraceur	Strip away the official-looking logos, most people would call that malware
22:35	marktraceur	But some people actually pay for it
22:38	Bad_Command	Because it is useful and does what it is intended to do...
22:38	marktraceur	Bad_Command: And possibly more. And possibly in a mailicious or inefficient way. No way to know.
22:39	marktraceur	Is this not the definition of malware? "I don't know what this thing is doing, and there's no way to figure that out"
22:39	Bad_Command	No, I don't think so
22:39	Kray	what kind of hardware you are running?
22:40	Kray	is it's firmware open?
22:40	Kray	*its
22:40	Bad_Command	"Malware, short for malicious software, is software used or created by hackers to disrupt computer operation, gather sensitive information, or gain access to private computer systems. While it is often software, it can also appear in the form of scripts or code.[1] 'Malware' is a general term used to refer to a variety of forms of hostile, intrusive, or annoying software."
22:40	Kray	it is just utter bullshit to call closed source software malware
22:40	Bad_Command	Yup
22:41	bas080	Privacy and transparency for the win. But you need knowledge to know what your pc is running. Why aren't the pro's making that easier. Like the dude on tedtalks that made that app that shows what tracking internet companies are tracking you?
22:41	Kray	have you built everything you run on your computer from sources yourself you have checked first?
22:41	marktraceur	Kray: Sadly, no. I'm working towards having free firmware. Recent college grad's paychecks can't support a quick pivot :P
22:42	marktraceur	Kray: But the real problem isn't that all non-free software is malware, but that it all could be. There's no way to know.
22:42	Kray	if not, there might be something nasty there right from the distro
22:42	marktraceur	(I suppose I misspoke)
22:42	Bad_Command	That's called paranoia
22:42	Bad_Command	They have meds that help with that
22:42	Kray	indeed
22:42	VanessaE	the question isn't do you trust the code - it's do you trust the coders. IOW, you shouldn't need to audit millions of lines of code, just vet a few thousand programmers, as one member of a large communi8ty
22:42	VanessaE	-8
22:43	marktraceur	Bad_Command, Kray: It boils down to this: Why should they keep me from controlling my computer, if they aren't doing something nasty?
22:43	Kray	no one is keeping you from controlling your computer
22:43	marktraceur	I admit I don't have the time to audit every line of code, but if I want to, why should they stop me?
22:43	VanessaE	I don't avoid windows because I don't trust the OS (although I don't). I avoid it because I don't trust the people who wrote it.
22:43	Bad_Command	Mark, you can do whatever you want. You're just preaching some baloney.
22:44	Kray	these things are called trade secrets
22:44	marktraceur	Bad_Command, Kray: If I run non-free software, I don't control what's running on my computer
22:44	Kray	unfortunately it is part of business world
22:44	Kray	you can sandbox it if you are so paranoid
22:44	marktraceur	Kray: But I'm in my house right now, and my computer's processes shouldn't be trade secrets from me
22:44	marktraceur	Just like it should be, and is, illegal to put something in food without informing people.
22:45	Kray	do you have the exact information on how your fridge's all chips and such work?
22:45	Kray	i don't think so
22:45	marktraceur	"Hey, what's in this hamburger? I'm allergic to soy sauce." "Oh, we can't tell you, it's a trade secret"
22:45	Kray	there is also some embedded stuff
22:45	Bad_Command	Yeah that sounds like McDonald's
22:45	marktraceur	Kray: Yes, and these are all problems
22:46	Kray	they are not problems
22:46	marktraceur	Things we should work to solve
22:46	Kray	your paranoia is a problem
22:46	marktraceur	Kray: If you can't take apart your fridge, and make it better, then you have a problem. You don't have control over your property.
22:46	marktraceur	And why do you call it paranoia? Wanting control of my property isn't paranoia.
22:46	FreeFull	I run Arch linux on machines
22:47	Kray	it is called paranoia when it is so detached from reality
22:47	Bad_Command	mark, you choose not to use dropbox. that's fine.
22:47	Kray	but no point in arguing more, i'll go to sleep
22:47	FreeFull	No propertiary stuff installed by default, so by default I can look at all the source code I want
22:47	marktraceur	Kray: The reality is, I have possession of something, and it's doing things I don't want it to. That's not detached from anything.
22:48	Kray	what it is doing that you don't want it to?
22:48	marktraceur	Bad_Command: But you think that I'm somehow paranoid for thinking things that are true?
22:48	marktraceur	Kray: Hypothetically, sorry
22:48	VanessaE	car analogy time: I do my own repairs on my car (a 1992 cadillac). Should I have to defer some repairs to a technician because they would involve parts that I'm not allowed to even look at, for fear of breaking said trade secret?
22:48	VanessaE	No.
22:48	marktraceur	Kray: If it has an extra feature, or a missing feature, I should be able to change it.
22:48	marktraceur	Kray: If it breaks, I should be able to fix it.
22:49	Kray	well you can
22:49	VanessaE	(and fortunately I have yet to find any such things, save for perhaps the internals of the computer)
22:49	marktraceur	(see VanessaE's analogy, of course)
22:49	Kray	they are just not helping you do it
22:49	marktraceur	Kray: But I'd need to do inordinate amounts of work, in pure binary, to fix it
22:49	Kray	well, it is your problem
22:49	Kray	not theirs
22:49	Kray	they are providing you with what you bought
22:50	marktraceur	Kray: Bullshit. They've put a huge vault around the software, and you're saying they aren't preventing me from fixing it?
22:50	Bad_Command	There's this neat thing called choice.
22:50	Kray	what vault?
22:50	marktraceur	Bad_Command: Ah, we always come to this inevitably. Choosing to go to jail is not freedom.
22:50	VanessaE	kray: four words: Digital Millennium Copyright Act.
22:50	marktraceur	Kray: If they plop down licensing restrictions, that's a huge vault.
22:50	VanessaE	that vault.
22:51	Kray	that doesn't prevent yourself doing it on your own
22:51	Bad_Command	VanessaE: DMCA is not a vault. It has provisions that allow reverse engineering.
22:51	VanessaE	Bad_Command: which have no teeth.
22:51	marktraceur	Kray: Yeah, it does. It prevents you from legally making changes to the software.
22:51	Kray	and?
22:51	marktraceur	Kray: You shouldn't need to break the law to fix your property.
22:52	VanessaE	those provisions are worthless
22:52	Bad_Command	But it isn't your property you are trying to fix
22:52	marktraceur	Bad_Command: So what did you pay for? Oh, right, a ticket to the show.
22:52	Kray	it isn't broken
22:52	Bad_Command	It is like trying to screw with a rental car
22:52	marktraceur	"You can come in, and look around, but not too closely"
22:52	Kray	you got what you bought
22:52	Bad_Command	To use a car analogy
22:52	VanessaE	it becomes my property the instant it hits my hard disk, and ceases to be my property when I try to upload it or delete it.
22:52	marktraceur	It's in your house, in your computer, messing with your private data
22:53	marktraceur	No. No. Not anymore. Fuck it.
22:53		marktraceur left #minetest
22:53	Bad_Command	well that was mildly amusing.
22:53	Bad_Command	Anyhow, gotta buy some milk. BBL.
22:54	bleargh	lol
22:55	VanessaE	Kray: face it, no one will ever convince people like mark and I that software shouldn't be as free as any physical possession, nor that it's merely a license/rental/lease/whatever.
22:55	NakedFury	hey guys!
22:55	NakedFury	and girls
22:56	bleargh	sup
22:56	NakedFury	wow hot discussion
22:56	Kray	obviously i'm against allowing doing whatever you want to what you got
22:56	VanessaE	it's like buying a movie on some piece of physical media. I paid money for it from a legit retailer. Therefore, I own it, and I can do with it as I please (short of giving copies to others, I respect that)
22:56	bleargh	as a user of free software myself i often find windows/nonfree bashing slightly ashaming
22:57	VanessaE	and no one will ever convince me otherwise.
22:57	Kray	but there is absolutely no justification for requiring distributor to provide source code
22:57	NakedFury	why should they provide it?
22:58	VanessaE	the justification is earning your customers' trust. Nothing more and nothing less.
22:58	bleargh	you do that with a pr campaign
22:58	VanessaE	a PR campaign will only get you so far, especially with geeks
22:59	bleargh	well if you trust a company you have lost already
22:59	VanessaE	no, company trusting its users.
22:59	VanessaE	and in turn, the users trusting the company.
22:59	Bad_Command	And trusting the competitors...
22:59	NakedFury	that wont happen
22:59	NakedFury	ever
23:00	VanessaE	and that's a bad thing? competition is what makes businesses either succeed or fail.
23:00	NakedFury	giving out source codes to gather trust is a bad move
23:00	NakedFury	and wont happen unless its an open source project
23:00	VanessaE	without it, you end up with monopolies, stagnation in the marketplace, maws written to protect existing companies and shut out new competition, etc.
23:01	VanessaE	these are not good things for any market, open source or otherwise.
23:01	VanessaE	maws -> laws.
23:02	VanessaE	and if your company is built upon the foundation of secrecy in your software, you're in for a hell of a fall some day.
23:02	VanessaE	because sooner or later those secrets will either be revealed, or someone will make something better.
23:02	NakedFury	thi has been the way since the beginning
23:03	VanessaE	yes, indeed it has... and what I said has been the result from the beginning
23:03	VanessaE	secrets will be found out.
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