| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:02 |
VanessaE |
~tell tenplus1 https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/plantlife_modpack/commit/08698ecd601c5b0a0fa3aa62be2a17a496169cd4 you may want to apply this to vines or at least patch it in by hand. |
| 00:02 |
ShadowBot |
VanessaE: O.K. |
| 00:29 |
luk3yx |
rubenwardy: I can't set a repository URL in content.minetest.net, it says "Unknown server error". |
| 00:31 |
rubenwardy |
Don't set one then click next |
| 00:31 |
rubenwardy |
If you get an error on create, go to your user profile and find the created mod |
| 00:54 |
luk3yx |
It works |
| 01:33 |
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sys4 joined #minetest-hub |
| 01:57 |
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ANAND joined #minetest-hub |
| 02:23 |
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paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 02:49 |
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paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 04:04 |
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FrostRanger joined #minetest-hub |
| 07:55 |
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CWz joined #minetest-hub |
| 08:09 |
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Fuchs joined #minetest-hub |
| 09:19 |
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Krock joined #minetest-hub |
| 10:03 |
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ANAND joined #minetest-hub |
| 10:39 |
nerzhul |
hey nore :) |
| 10:39 |
nore |
hey :) |
| 10:39 |
nore |
what's up? |
| 10:40 |
nerzhul |
there is some down haha |
| 10:41 |
nore |
oh ^^' |
| 10:52 |
shivajiva |
Hi nerzhul, when do you propose to give us the proper csm on the road map, the one where it's sent from the server to the client? |
| 10:53 |
nerzhul |
i give that after 5.0.0 release and paramat stop to demotivate myself from working on MT by trying to remove the feature. |
| 10:54 |
shivajiva |
why did you implement it like this instead of how it was supposed to work? |
| 10:55 |
shivajiva |
from my perspective it looked like you were trying to break mt not fix it |
| 10:55 |
shivajiva |
and the answer as to the timeline means probably never, right? |
| 10:56 |
nerzhul |
because we need this to have feature work properly |
| 10:56 |
nerzhul |
break MT with non used code if you don't code mode ? interesting concept |
| 10:56 |
nerzhul |
mod* |
| 10:57 |
nerzhul |
shivajiva i'm tired to battle for this feature. If you want server side sent features stop make me tired by loosing time to justify why it's designed like this. |
| 10:57 |
shivajiva |
blaming paramat for preventing you doing it properly is just dumb, makes you look spoilt from over here |
| 10:57 |
nerzhul |
the design is good. You just miss a channel to publish the mod, and it's the most sensible part, it's not the CSM implementation. |
| 10:57 |
shivajiva |
paramat is trying to secure it |
| 10:57 |
nerzhul |
by publishing removal pr ? |
| 10:57 |
nerzhul |
lol |
| 10:58 |
nerzhul |
is this the trump way against mexicans ? |
| 10:58 |
shivajiva |
don't be crass, I'm trying to workout why we are in stasis with csm |
| 10:59 |
nerzhul |
5.0.0 should have been published 6 month ago, but it was not published due to my afk, it's because nobody take ownership on the release, it's bad for the project. |
| 10:59 |
Krock |
because nobody is keen on implementing SSCSM |
| 10:59 |
nerzhul |
the SSCSM part is the most code sensible part |
| 10:59 |
Krock |
nerzhul: no because the Android build still sucked. We finally need to know whether the error flood is finally fixed |
| 10:59 |
nerzhul |
you think it's easy but it's more complex than security SSM itself from rogue mods |
| 11:00 |
nerzhul |
Krock yeah i missed that part, you are right |
| 11:00 |
nerzhul |
but it's one issue |
| 11:00 |
shivajiva |
you refuse to move it forward because you don't like what paramat is doing, that's what you just said, wasn't it? |
| 11:00 |
Krock |
now the rotation issue needs fixing. I'd also like to at least fix the HUDs a bit |
| 11:00 |
nerzhul |
which can be handled in a feature freeze if there is efforts :) |
| 11:00 |
nerzhul |
Krock what's the problem with HUD ? |
| 11:00 |
nerzhul |
rotation problems mentioned by pgimeno ? |
| 11:01 |
Krock |
nerzhul: the builtin HUDs have a race condition, causing weird effects when altering the flags or replacing them |
| 11:02 |
Krock |
and yes, the Z=0 issue |
| 11:02 |
nerzhul |
shivajiva: if you prefer to build a wall tp revent migrants (features) from coming instead of taking time to understand the issue and found the good solution |
| 11:02 |
Krock |
* Z!=0 |
| 11:02 |
nerzhul |
okay, for the builtin hud is this due to the id problem ? |
| 11:02 |
nerzhul |
i think we can trigger the feature freeze and take time to fix those issues instead of adding new mor features |
| 11:03 |
nerzhul |
else the 5.1 will happen in 10 years because there will not be sufficient features to push :p |
| 11:05 |
nerzhul |
servers can block the problematic CSM features |
| 11:05 |
nerzhul |
(for server owners) |
| 11:06 |
nerzhul |
and CSM mods can start to pop with the current features. remember you can start to code a CSM mod client side to see what are the interesting features, and i don't see any interesting CSM mod which can be sent from server in the future |
| 11:06 |
nerzhul |
then i don't understand why we want to have SSCSM whereas there are no real SSCSM mod usage in the forum mod store |
| 11:07 |
shivajiva |
when we work on features that slow a monolith down, there has to be balance between speed enhancement and features or this thing grinds to a halt. I want balance and things done appropriately in sequence, the feature is a partial implementation of the roadmap feature that has had it's issues so for me it could be removed |
| 11:07 |
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Gael-de-Sailly joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:07 |
shivajiva |
and you just stated no real requirement for it |
| 11:08 |
nerzhul |
i think you misunderstand CSM |
| 11:08 |
nerzhul |
you cannot offload most of your server work client side due to security |
| 11:08 |
nerzhul |
you can offload at least 10 or 15% of the server work in the best case |
| 11:08 |
nerzhul |
client must be more secure than server |
| 11:08 |
shivajiva |
probably, what was it considered for then? |
| 11:09 |
nerzhul |
enhancing client only performance |
| 11:09 |
nerzhul |
for example you can do custom chat print |
| 11:09 |
shivajiva |
if we can't do SCSM what is it in there for? |
| 11:09 |
nerzhul |
you can also enacle the ore detection and enable a feature to show them to players if you want |
| 11:09 |
shivajiva |
so players can have pretty text? |
| 11:09 |
shivajiva |
or cheat? |
| 11:09 |
nerzhul |
yep or have filtering |
| 11:10 |
nerzhul |
no cheat possible except if the mod alter the that |
| 11:10 |
shivajiva |
wow |
| 11:10 |
nerzhul |
chat* |
| 11:10 |
nerzhul |
but it's CSM mod owner (or in the future SSCSM mod owner) responsibility |
| 11:10 |
nerzhul |
you should really look at the API |
| 11:10 |
nerzhul |
i don't have all feature in my head |
| 11:10 |
shivajiva |
all this crap for coloured text and ore sniffing seems wrong somehow |
| 11:10 |
nerzhul |
but for example you cannot alter the map |
| 11:11 |
nerzhul |
and you will never have this possibility |
| 11:11 |
nerzhul |
or alter the objects |
| 11:11 |
nerzhul |
but you can have some client formspec |
| 11:11 |
nerzhul |
for example to have an admin panel for admins to send commands to server through mod channel |
| 11:12 |
nerzhul |
world edit panel client side for example |
| 11:12 |
nerzhul |
or inventory formspec client side |
| 11:12 |
nerzhul |
(it's a good performance improvement if correctly done because inventory formspec in some mods is slow, with CSM no perf penalty) |
| 11:12 |
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Fixer joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:13 |
nerzhul |
i think formspec can be all offloaded client side |
| 11:13 |
shivajiva |
that would be a good poc but where is it, this whole thing has impeded progress imo |
| 11:13 |
nerzhul |
did you looked at this forum ? https://forum.minetest.net/viewforum.php?f=53 |
| 11:14 |
nerzhul |
there are some ideas of the possibilities |
| 11:14 |
nerzhul |
and as you see there is no exploit |
| 11:14 |
nerzhul |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=18657 |
| 11:15 |
nerzhul |
what a nice idea |
| 11:15 |
nerzhul |
i didn't thought about this when wrinting API :) |
| 11:15 |
shivajiva |
when eyes and ears are not enough we have a csm to tell us the tool is wearing...really |
| 11:16 |
shivajiva |
it's what I like to call fluff |
| 11:16 |
nerzhul |
lazy players :p |
| 11:17 |
nerzhul |
but i didn't thought about that usecase, it's just creative :) |
| 11:17 |
shivajiva |
it brings nothing real to the game though :) |
| 11:19 |
nerzhul |
sorry but having a notification about breaking why not if you have eye problems :p |
| 11:19 |
nerzhul |
with a sound hah |
| 11:20 |
nerzhul |
https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=21440 is a nice thing, a very good offload :) |
| 11:20 |
nerzhul |
then, no need to worry about this, if you find all those mod useless it prooves that CSM has no problem in your use case |
| 11:21 |
shivajiva |
just trying to workout where this is all going and how it helps 5.0 because we have so few devs |
| 11:21 |
nerzhul |
you are wrong. |
| 11:21 |
nerzhul |
CSM doesn't cover rogue usage |
| 11:21 |
nerzhul |
then it's good for 5.0.0 |
| 11:22 |
shivajiva |
and why you seem to have stopped developing it towards the roadmap feature |
| 11:22 |
nerzhul |
i stopped to develop CSM when the API was mature |
| 11:22 |
shivajiva |
I'm probably not the only one wondering |
| 11:22 |
nerzhul |
yeah we don't have SSCSM but we can do that in a future release |
| 11:22 |
nerzhul |
remember MT 0.4.0 ? |
| 11:22 |
shivajiva |
nope |
| 11:22 |
nerzhul |
many features are missing and the community was not like today. |
| 11:23 |
nerzhul |
there was 30% of the current API in SSM |
| 11:23 |
nerzhul |
now just release that fucking 5.0.0 and go ahead with 5.1 with waited features |
| 11:24 |
nerzhul |
if nobody from server moders find CSM useful, then SSCSM is not useful for them => no need to worry about the SSCSM feature |
| 11:24 |
nerzhul |
in development a program is never finished |
| 11:24 |
nerzhul |
ls and grep commands have patches, 10 years after the last commit, |
| 11:25 |
shivajiva |
okay I have my answer, thank you |
| 11:26 |
nerzhul |
i will take time in 5.1 series to : SSCSM + refactor the code to enhance the code quality and coverage |
| 11:27 |
nerzhul |
but in 5.1 |
| 11:27 |
nerzhul |
now i need to take time to finish the latest refactor PR i want to have in 5.0.0 and update the changelog |
| 11:32 |
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jluc joined #minetest-hub |
| 11:54 |
Fixer |
(20 years later) |
| 11:55 |
Fixer |
when nerzhul kid goes to uni minetest finally releases 5.0 |
| 11:55 |
Fixer |
's |
| 11:55 |
Fixer |
*please don't rush it anyway, polish it |
| 11:55 |
* Fixer |
dives out |
| 11:59 |
nerzhul |
6 months of polishing |
| 11:59 |
nerzhul |
since last release date... |
| 11:59 |
nerzhul |
or 8 |
| 11:59 |
Shara |
Server owners in general have seemed really unhappy with CSM... server owners being the ones most affected by it. Yet server owners get shot down over and over when they say they are unhappy with the thing. |
| 11:59 |
* Shara |
sighs |
| 12:00 |
nerzhul |
Shara server owners are never happy but it's like french people :p |
| 12:00 |
Shara |
nerzhul: as you like to tell other people, you're wrong. There's plenty I am very happy about. CSm is not a thing I am happy with. |
| 12:01 |
Shara |
You did huge damage to the MT community with this thing. |
| 12:01 |
Shara |
Blaming paramat for you not finishing it is quite pathetic. |
| 12:01 |
Fixer |
eh, problem with cheaters? |
| 12:02 |
Shara |
Fixer: problem about control. |
| 12:02 |
Fixer |
ah |
| 12:02 |
Shara |
My server, should be my rules yes? |
| 12:02 |
Shara |
Lots of servers have a rule... found using CSM? Ban. |
| 12:02 |
Shara |
This is how fed up people are. |
| 12:03 |
Shara |
And it's sad, because there are aq couple of okay mods |
| 12:03 |
Shara |
a* |
| 12:03 |
Shara |
But really, coloured text and sound alerts... not really seeing that it was worth so much dev time. |
| 12:03 |
Shara |
Was it worth how upset and angry it made so many people? |
| 12:03 |
Shara |
It could have been a good thing, but it has been handled poorly |
| 12:04 |
Krock |
but I like my colored names |
| 12:05 |
Shara |
Krock: Why could that not have just been something built into options for clients then? |
| 12:05 |
Krock |
in the engine or as SSM? |
| 12:06 |
Shara |
Could it not have been done in the engine to add it as a setting for players? |
| 12:06 |
Shara |
If coloured names is so important... |
| 12:06 |
Krock |
someone else might want a PM "ding" |
| 12:06 |
Fixer |
Shara: are there rogue CSM mods out there? |
| 12:07 |
Shara |
Fixer: no idea anymore. |
| 12:07 |
Shara |
I am fairly sure there were item duping bugs on one of my servers shortly after CSM was added, and no, it could not have been due tot he WE issue. |
| 12:07 |
Shara |
But hard to prove such things |
| 12:07 |
Shara |
And I prefer not to work off guesses |
| 12:08 |
Krock |
list[player:MyPlayerName;hand;1,1;1,1] rogue CSM done |
| 12:08 |
Shara |
Either way - it has caused a lot of annoyance |
| 12:11 |
Shara |
What I would love is a meaningful way to offload things to clients, that is under my control. I thought that was the end goal, but based on what nerzhul has said, I'm clearly mistaken, and the goal was coloured text and alert sounds all along. |
| 12:12 |
Krock |
I also expected SSCSMs to be a thing earlier but yet it did not happen :/ |
| 12:12 |
Shara |
Well, over a year and no progress, yet paramat get slammed for calling this out |
| 12:13 |
Shara |
gets* |
| 12:13 |
Shara |
And it seems more and more like CSM devs never planned to do SSCSM |
| 12:13 |
Krock |
mainly because red-001_ and a few other people lost interest in developing it |
| 12:13 |
Krock |
also that, yes. |
| 12:14 |
Shara |
You can't expect server owners to be okay with that kind of break in trust |
| 12:14 |
Krock |
even if SSCSMs were a thing, copying the mod loading function from server to client would evil users to "cheat" anyway |
| 12:15 |
Krock |
*users allow to |
| 12:15 |
Shara |
Whole thing never should have been started then really. |
| 12:15 |
Shara |
Big features like this... they should have a clear plan before they are done, and the plan should actually be followed. |
| 12:15 |
ANAND |
How do other games achieve this then, while avoiding the cheating portion of it? |
| 12:17 |
Shara |
ANAND: probably better planning and more thought into what should or should not be client controlled. |
| 12:17 |
nerzhul |
ANAND just look at World of Warcraft |
| 12:17 |
nerzhul |
they permit cheat until 1.10.0 version in vanilla because they permit to cast spell in mods :p |
| 12:17 |
nerzhul |
then you can program your whole dps cycle :p |
| 12:18 |
ANAND |
True, Shara. |
| 12:18 |
Shara |
I'm fine with the client being able to set things like text font/colour/size and so on... that's actually good for accessability issues |
| 12:18 |
nerzhul |
many programs doesn't have a SSCSM because there is no sense to have it |
| 12:18 |
nerzhul |
they are not as modular as MT is |
| 12:18 |
nerzhul |
they are just game in a finished state |
| 12:18 |
ANAND |
Then maybe we could adapt WoW's anti-cheat measures, nerzhul? |
| 12:18 |
Shara |
nerzhul: so now you say SSCSM is pointless? |
| 12:18 |
nerzhul |
ANAND the wow warden ? |
| 12:19 |
ANAND |
Idk what WoW is, I'm just asking :) |
| 12:19 |
nerzhul |
Shara, i say if i look at the forum CSM mods they are useful but not for a global usage, for some users only |
| 12:20 |
nerzhul |
then i don't think SSCSM is useful there. If a user want to customize its chat it's for him, i don't see why a server owner should own this and do what he wants |
| 12:20 |
Shara |
So CSm was implemented with zero plan of following the actual plan |
| 12:20 |
nerzhul |
user experience in modded games is done by users themselves, not the game owners, see skyrim, WoW and others |
| 12:20 |
nerzhul |
CSM was implemented to work without distribution channel |
| 12:20 |
nerzhul |
just like the broken modstore (before ruben rewrite it) |
| 12:21 |
nerzhul |
in a single player experience CSM is totally useful |
| 12:21 |
Shara |
Ability to customise text colours feels like a thing that should actually be int he engine to me. |
| 12:21 |
nerzhul |
Shara it's in the engine |
| 12:21 |
Shara |
You miss the point. Players should not need mods for this |
| 12:21 |
nerzhul |
you can just alter the string, if you set colors it show colors |
| 12:21 |
nerzhul |
okay let me show you example of what is a very nice modding community (outside MT) |
| 12:22 |
nerzhul |
https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons |
| 12:22 |
Shara |
I don't care about WoW |
| 12:22 |
Shara |
MT is nothing like WoW |
| 12:22 |
nerzhul |
don't look at WoW |
| 12:22 |
nerzhul |
look at the modding part |
| 12:22 |
nerzhul |
don't be mind blocked |
| 12:22 |
Shara |
I am not "mind blocked" |
| 12:22 |
nerzhul |
look at the wow community possibilities, it's globally UI, we don't care about wow there |
| 12:22 |
nerzhul |
we care about the modding |
| 12:23 |
Shara |
CSM has not produced anything useful enough to justify the mess and division within the community that it has caused |
| 12:23 |
ANAND |
Sadly, WoW seems to be closed source. No point in looking at WoW then |
| 12:23 |
nerzhul |
enough to you |
| 12:23 |
nerzhul |
wow is closed source but modding API is free |
| 12:23 |
nerzhul |
and mod owners can suggest modifications to blizzard on their forums |
| 12:23 |
Shara |
ANAND: exactly.. kind of hate nerzhul using such things as examples... because they are not too applicable. not even similar kind of game |
| 12:24 |
nerzhul |
i don't see why adding UI things, customizing chat and handling events is not applicable to mt |
| 12:24 |
nerzhul |
we have UI, chat and events. |
| 12:24 |
Calinou |
ANAND: not willing to look at good ideas in proprietary software seems like a bad idea to me |
| 12:24 |
Calinou |
judge the idea, not the author |
| 12:24 |
Shara |
Calinou: willing to look, but I find WoW not a good example |
| 12:25 |
ANAND |
Calinou: I was wanting to look at how it was actually implemented |
| 12:25 |
ANAND |
the mod-sending, that is |
| 12:25 |
nerzhul |
WoW API is just Lua like MT |
| 12:25 |
nerzhul |
and triggers events like MT |
| 12:25 |
Calinou |
anyway, server-provided client-side code isn't exclusive to WoW :) |
| 12:25 |
nerzhul |
and you can request engine like MT. |
| 12:25 |
Shara |
In terms of UI, we are kind of stuck with the fun of formspecs, so there are some serious imits :) |
| 12:25 |
Calinou |
(same for client-provided client-side code, but it's rarer if you only include Turing-complete languages) |
| 12:25 |
nerzhul |
wow hasn't server provided mods |
| 12:25 |
nerzhul |
they are packaged with the games |
| 12:25 |
nerzhul |
the game versions* |
| 12:26 |
Shara |
What I want to see is people actually making mods for MT that justify CSM |
| 12:26 |
nerzhul |
it's why wow is the best example because they do the same things as us, yeah the gameplay isn't same, but the implementation is totally identical (outside of the game functionalities themselves) |
| 12:27 |
nerzhul |
Shara, when SSM modding api appears you told wow, why extend the game, and make it generic ? |
| 12:27 |
Shara |
nerzhul: maybe you should prove us wrong by making some really nice CSM mods then |
| 12:27 |
nerzhul |
Shara i'm not a modder i'm a coredev |
| 12:27 |
nerzhul |
i provide API |
| 12:27 |
nerzhul |
just be creative |
| 12:27 |
nerzhul |
also the forum has better examples than me |
| 12:27 |
nerzhul |
as some non blocked users take the CSM API and do something with it |
| 12:28 |
Shara |
The forum doesn't have much at all |
| 12:28 |
nerzhul |
because it's not really releases as 5.0.0 isn't done , |
| 12:28 |
nerzhul |
? |
| 12:28 |
nerzhul |
released* |
| 12:28 |
Shara |
Is it not in current stable? |
| 12:28 |
nerzhul |
the 0.4.17 API has less features than 5.0 if i remember |
| 12:29 |
ANAND |
Here's a valid use-case for SSCSM: #7557. It should've been client-side, ideally. Without SSCSM entering the scene anytime soon, I reckoned this could at least go to the server-side API. It might be a bit laggier than (SS)CSM, but at least mods could use the functionality... |
| 12:29 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7557 -- Expose player FOV to Lua API by ClobberXD |
| 12:29 |
nerzhul |
in fact 5.0.0 adds security only features on CSM, except the player privilege API , the inventory callbacks, the locale and the mod communication with server |
| 12:30 |
nerzhul |
(and between CSM clients) |
| 12:30 |
nerzhul |
https://dev.minetest.net/Changelog#0.4.16_.E2.86.92_5.0.0_.28Not_yet_released.29 |
| 12:30 |
ANAND |
And btw, what are mod channels? |
| 12:30 |
Shara |
I give up anyway. Hopefully you prove me wrong and CSm gets huge and good use. |
| 12:30 |
nerzhul |
changelog stopping at 15 aug is very very use |
| 12:30 |
nerzhul |
ANAND: it permits CSM mods to talk to SSM mods or to other CSM users |
| 12:31 |
Shara |
EIther way - you've handled it really poorly. And stop blaming paramat for you not doing SSCSM |
| 12:31 |
ANAND |
Oh ok |
| 12:31 |
nerzhul |
imagine you trigger a CSM event: "receive chat message from chuck" |
| 12:31 |
nerzhul |
you can register a mod channel an push the event |
| 12:31 |
nerzhul |
if SSM mod or other CSM clients are registered in the channel, they will receive the event and can handle it to do something |
| 12:31 |
nerzhul |
you can serialize lua data to push on a such channel |
| 12:32 |
ANAND |
Cool |
| 12:32 |
ANAND |
Can this be extended to become the foundation for mod-sending? |
| 12:32 |
nerzhul |
it's a controversial MT usecase, but you can imagine you have oredetect mod enable, when you find diamond or gold it push the event on the mod channel, other users with same mod receive the event and notify the current user that diamond ore was found a x,y,z |
| 12:32 |
nerzhul |
no because it's just communication channels for data not code |
| 12:33 |
nerzhul |
CSM mod sending should either use media API or another API |
| 12:33 |
nerzhul |
because the problem is how to package a mod |
| 12:33 |
nerzhul |
it's not just a media list |
| 12:34 |
nerzhul |
in WOW you have also mod channels, if i have gatherer mod (which register all resources found, herbs, ore, fish...) and another user has it in the same channel both mods share their data and complete the each other to have a more compelte db |
| 12:34 |
nerzhul |
in pvp you have player position sharing with such mods |
| 12:35 |
ANAND |
Interesting possibilities |
| 12:35 |
nerzhul |
i also get a mod which register the loot chance on each mob and complete with other players permitting to have more accurate percents |
| 12:35 |
nerzhul |
because you have more stats :) |
| 12:36 |
nerzhul |
in SSM and CSM case it's the best way that a SSM mod and CSM mod users can use to share data |
| 12:36 |
ANAND |
This can be put to good use when combined with SSCSMs. But I assume mod channels isn't complete yet? |
| 12:36 |
nerzhul |
imagine weather API, SSM push a weather lua event and you client just do the draw (we don't have a such api yet) |
| 12:36 |
nerzhul |
mod channel is completei n master |
| 12:37 |
ANAND |
Oh nice |
| 12:37 |
nerzhul |
see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/client_lua_api.txt#L780 |
| 12:38 |
nerzhul |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/mod_channels.png |
| 12:38 |
nerzhul |
you have both possibilities on the graph, CSM communication only or SSM & CSM mod communication |
| 12:39 |
nerzhul |
and you have examples in minimal + CSM experimental mod |
| 12:40 |
ANAND |
Oh I didn't know there was an example |
| 12:40 |
nerzhul |
when i write an API i push it to experimental or CSM preview depending on the scope |
| 12:40 |
nerzhul |
other coredev generally do this |
| 12:40 |
nerzhul |
we have an API test in experimental |
| 12:41 |
nerzhul |
minimal/experimental is the SSM part preview is CSM part, to be more clear :p |
| 12:41 |
ANAND |
Yes, I figured |
| 12:42 |
nerzhul |
it's really useful and provide real examples heh |
| 12:49 |
ANAND |
Would it be possible to package code as serialized text, along with metadata that the client can use to re-create the mod folder? |
| 12:50 |
nerzhul |
it's the idea but it's not as easy |
| 12:50 |
nerzhul |
but i got an idea about it |
| 12:50 |
nerzhul |
just no time to code it and it's a little bit sensible |
| 12:50 |
nerzhul |
because you mustn't do rogue things on client |
| 12:50 |
ANAND |
True |
| 12:51 |
nerzhul |
evade the sandbox, evade the FS, break FS, etc |
| 13:08 |
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| 13:29 |
nerzhul |
interesting |
| 13:29 |
nerzhul |
another point to make MT far from MC :p |
| 13:29 |
nerzhul |
this is a good thing for MC except it's js :p |
| 13:29 |
Fixer |
another point to implement z-sorting |
| 13:37 |
Fixer |
and forget about minecraft |
| 13:43 |
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| 13:43 |
shivajiva |
this time next year we will have z-sorting....isn't that how it goes Fixer |
| 13:46 |
shivajiva |
this time next year we will be happy... |
| 13:46 |
shivajiva |
this time next year we will be rich... |
| 13:52 |
rubenwardy |
Client-side scripting is aimed for client side prediction and audiovisual enhancements |
| 13:52 |
rubenwardy |
It wasn't intended for client provided mods |
| 13:53 |
rubenwardy |
Client side scripting could add proper prediction to mine carts, to make them follow the tracks better without lots of packet |
| 13:53 |
rubenwardy |
Or fancy canvas rendering in formspecs |
| 13:53 |
rubenwardy |
Where the data transfer is too high |
| 13:53 |
rubenwardy |
Fancy colored text and the like are not part of the original CSS plans |
| 13:53 |
rubenwardy |
And are a bastardisation |
| 13:54 |
rubenwardy |
Css should be about increasing the modding possibility of mods and games |
| 13:55 |
* Krock |
wonders why he can walk onto 1m high nodes without jumping |
| 13:55 |
rubenwardy |
Not about players hacking servers and customising their gameplay |
| 13:55 |
* Krock |
realizes that there's autojump = true in his config |
| 13:55 |
rubenwardy |
Players shouldn't decide game play, the server owner should |
| 13:55 |
rubenwardy |
Colored names and such features should be in the engine |
| 13:56 |
rubenwardy |
And spscs or whatever not happening isn't paramat's fault |
| 14:04 |
shivajiva |
rubenwardy: thanks for that clarity, it's always good to understand what things are supposed to be for reference |
| 14:38 |
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| 15:03 |
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| 15:56 |
nerzhul |
rubenwardy i let you port all that in 5.1 :D |
| 15:56 |
nerzhul |
as i said color chat is already in engine |
| 15:56 |
nerzhul |
it use all engine API |
| 15:56 |
nerzhul |
but the custom itself is done by mod |
| 16:02 |
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| 16:13 |
shivajiva |
I really don't understand why you are deriving pleasure from this situation nerzhul, it's not amusing me in the slightest. The intimation is you will sit back and watch ruben port it instead of helping or did I misunderstand? |
| 16:15 |
nerzhul |
where did you see i take pleasure ? |
| 16:16 |
nerzhul |
i lost my time to battle for this feature |
| 16:16 |
shivajiva |
[15:56:19] <nerzhul> rubenwardy i let you port all that in 5.1 :D |
| 16:16 |
shivajiva |
seems like a piss take to me |
| 16:16 |
nerzhul |
he defined the roadmap it seems :D |
| 16:17 |
rubenwardy |
!dev Client_side_scripting |
| 16:17 |
MinetestBot |
No such page. |
| 16:17 |
rubenwardy |
!dev client-side_scripting |
| 16:17 |
MinetestBot |
No such page. |
| 16:17 |
rubenwardy |
Whatever |
| 16:18 |
rubenwardy |
The concept of CSS was already planned and decided by hmmmm, c55, and various other devs |
| 16:18 |
nerzhul |
then go |
| 16:18 |
rubenwardy |
When I supported CSM, that's what I thought you were working on |
| 16:18 |
nerzhul |
why in 8 months of afk nobody started this ? i'm returning back to dev and except complain like 8 month ago i don't see anything new |
| 16:19 |
nerzhul |
red-001 and me have coded all the CSM basis, now add the new api you need |
| 16:19 |
nerzhul |
you don't need SSCSM to make CSM talk to irrlicht |
| 16:20 |
shivajiva |
I was waiting for you to return and provide some understanding as to where this is going, so it seems timely to me |
| 16:21 |
nerzhul |
and if i don't return what happend to the project ? |
| 16:23 |
shivajiva |
after some time it would be decided you had abandoned your post and the devs would make moves to factor if it is worth pursuing imo |
| 16:23 |
nerzhul |
hundreds hour of develop abandonned because nobody understand the code ? |
| 16:23 |
nerzhul |
we are 10 core dev |
| 16:23 |
nerzhul |
CSM is coded in same API way as SSM |
| 16:23 |
nerzhul |
if there is a problem it seems nobody understand mt engine |
| 16:23 |
Krock |
Freezer in technic is incoming. Will merge https://github.com/minetest-mods/technic/pull/457 in 10 minutes |
| 16:24 |
Krock |
^ nore, perhaps you're interested in having a quick look into this |
| 16:26 |
shivajiva |
I don't have a problem admitting I don't understand the mt engine but your stance is we are idiots for not understanding, that is bound to rub the wrong way isn't it |
| 16:36 |
Krock |
merging... |
| 16:51 |
nerzhul |
no i never said that |
| 16:51 |
nerzhul |
what i like in MT community: extremism, no middle |
| 16:51 |
Shara |
Has seemed the implication multiple times to me. |
| 16:56 |
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| 16:57 |
nerzhul |
there is no implication in what i say it's relatively clear :) |
| 16:59 |
Krock |
well, sometimes it might sound different than what you actually mean simply on how the sentences are formulated |
| 16:59 |
Shara |
^ |
| 17:00 |
Krock |
it's hard to get around this, especially when parties with non-native English speakers are involved |
| 17:01 |
Shara |
The jumps between blaming paramat and then saying SSCSM isn't needed anyway aren't helping. |
| 17:01 |
nerzhul |
oh it's just a fact, look at GH :) |
| 17:01 |
nerzhul |
Krock i'm non native too heh :p |
| 17:02 |
Krock |
nerzhul: ikr, that's mainly why I mentioned it |
| 17:03 |
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| 17:03 |
Krock |
To my part: SSCSM IS needed to complete the CSM API we've got now. However, server leaks/exploits will remain even if the client modding is entirely controlled by the server. Nobody can control the sanity of clients |
| 17:04 |
Shara |
Krock: sure, but it's about a lot more than exploits. I think every serious server owner realises some things cannot be prevented |
| 17:05 |
Krock |
throwing the CSM part we've got right now out of the window is nonsense and wasted dev time. Restrictions are however fine, allowing to make use of the feature later on when it's mature enough |
| 17:05 |
Shara |
I'd like to see it finished rather than thrown out. |
| 17:05 |
Krock |
same |
| 17:05 |
Shara |
But there seems no intention to finish it, and what we currently have isn't good. |
| 17:29 |
Krock |
just to execute Lua code locally would be quite easy. add the files to the server media, download from client, collect *.lua files in a list, execute the lua files. The issue is that whole mods have to be sent (multiple files, dependency handling perhaps too) |
| 17:30 |
Krock |
former issue could be done by catching all "dofile" or "loadfile" calls to rewrite the actual file path |
| 17:31 |
Krock |
mmh.. could write a POC somewhen to check whether this would actually work |
| 17:31 |
Krock |
also a safe Lua environment would be needed to not crash the client on CSM error |
| 17:32 |
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| 17:41 |
nerzhul |
Krock it's already the case |
| 17:41 |
nerzhul |
it just disconnect client from server currently |
| 17:42 |
nerzhul |
Shara we always want finished product, but MT SSM was never finished, you see features currently while it was released in 0.4.0 |
| 17:42 |
nerzhul |
Krock your case works for single file mod |
| 17:42 |
nerzhul |
but i don't want just single file mod |
| 17:43 |
Shara |
nerzhul: I'm awar eof changes for 5.0 as well. I know work has been done. |
| 17:44 |
Shara |
It's coming releases I worry about |
| 17:46 |
Krock |
nerzhul: thus it would be needed to overwrite "dofile" and "loadfile" in order to load more mod files (which are inside the media directory) |
| 17:46 |
Krock |
however, that will result in strange error tracebacks |
| 17:47 |
Krock |
and mod storage? uhm.. maybe it's wrong to load them into media |
| 17:50 |
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Fixer joined #minetest-hub |
| 18:11 |
nerzhul |
Krock exactly it's why i don't used the media cache for that |
| 18:11 |
nerzhul |
it's not adapted to the SSCSM |
| 18:11 |
nerzhul |
else it would be finished since ages :p |
| 18:13 |
Krock |
well so, let's use ./cache/sscsm/<modname> |
| 18:18 |
nerzhul |
we push a filepath in the mediacache ? i can't remember, and you need to handle subfolder etc :) |
| 18:24 |
Krock |
just one depth since the required media is still sent as usual |
| 18:24 |
Krock |
and mod data is saved somewhere else anyway |
| 18:59 |
nerzhul |
then we can do it like this adding file path and a limitation to have all lua file in the same folder |
| 19:00 |
nerzhul |
not sure everything works as intended, i don't remember how it's proessed client side |
| 19:00 |
nerzhul |
but it's a breaking release |
| 19:00 |
nerzhul |
and also how are them registered to server media list ? |
| 19:10 |
Krock |
fetch it like regular media, then filter them out locally client-side to save them in the appropriate place |
| 19:31 |
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| 19:33 |
rubenwardy |
I'm still in favour of installing from cdb instead |
| 19:34 |
Krock |
why not both? |
| 19:36 |
rubenwardy |
Because security |
| 19:37 |
rubenwardy |
It's the easiest way to verify that "carts" was written by "Krock" and now "TotallySafeUser" |
| 19:37 |
rubenwardy |
*not |
| 19:38 |
rubenwardy |
And gives you license verification for free |
| 19:38 |
rubenwardy |
For development, you can just provide the mod directly |
| 19:39 |
Krock |
hmm.. so you don't want SSCSMs or did we switch the topic at some point? |
| 19:39 |
rubenwardy |
Actually, the issue with this is preventing user modifications so it's not an end all |
| 19:43 |
rubenwardy |
I think sscsm is a terrible idea for security, given our lack of competent developers and history of bugs |
| 19:43 |
rubenwardy |
I'd be more supportive if you could cryptographically sign mods with sscsm, so you know the author |
| 19:51 |
Krock |
mhm yes |
| 20:05 |
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Jordach joined #minetest-hub |
| 20:06 |
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tenplus1 joined #minetest-hub |
| 20:06 |
tenplus1 |
hi folks :) |
| 20:06 |
tenplus1 |
hi Krock: |
| 20:06 |
Fixer |
"Rapunzel is pregnant" interesting |
| 20:06 |
tenplus1 |
hey fixer :P |
| 20:06 |
tumeninodes |
o/ |
| 20:07 |
tenplus1 |
o/ tumeni |
| 20:07 |
Fixer |
hihih |
| 20:07 |
tenplus1 |
how's all tonight ? |
| 20:07 |
tumeninodes |
... complacent |
| 20:07 |
tenplus1 |
is that good or bad ? |
| 20:07 |
tumeninodes |
can go either way :) |
| 20:08 |
tenplus1 |
lolol |
| 20:08 |
tumeninodes |
meanwhile, I'm working on a self-titled mod, to do something with the plethora of textures I've had laying around... trying to clean up a bit |
| 20:09 |
tenplus1 |
ooh, look forward to seeing it when done :P |
| 20:11 |
tumeninodes |
this is just the very edge of a bottomless void https://imgur.com/a/hSAfWxO |
| 20:11 |
tumeninodes |
several hundred to go |
| 20:12 |
tenplus1 |
VanessaE: added that addition to vines mod :) |
| 20:12 |
tumeninodes |
that way, people can pick n choose. It will possibly be split up over several diff folders |
| 20:13 |
tenplus1 |
looks interesting :)) |
| 20:13 |
tenplus1 |
Mobs Redo API updated, fixed nil entity check |
| 20:13 |
tumeninodes |
well..., it will clean out some much needed HD space |
| 20:13 |
tenplus1 |
get it all on git :PP |
| 20:14 |
tumeninodes |
so you've been busy |
| 20:14 |
tenplus1 |
few mod additions, bug fixes, moved wine's blue agave to nodetimers instead of abm |
| 20:15 |
Krock |
hi tenplus1 |
| 20:15 |
tenplus1 |
o/// |
| 20:16 |
tumeninodes |
nice. there should be as much moved away from abm as possible across the MT/MTG universe |
| 20:16 |
tenplus1 |
slow but sure :) |
| 20:16 |
tenplus1 |
although it replaces the abm's with lbm's to start all those nodetimers :D but those rune once only |
| 20:17 |
tumeninodes |
I'm not one to talk though |
| 20:18 |
tenplus1 |
was gonna do the same for hoppers, but I have 1 abm running all 3 hoppers and item suction :D |
| 20:21 |
* tumeninodes |
has still never even used a hopper |
| 20:22 |
Jordach |
great for putting my recently harvested hops itno |
| 20:22 |
tenplus1 |
lol, we need some sort of command block to identify items sucked into a hopper so it can be used for adventure maps... I think basic_machines has such a thing |
| 20:22 |
tenplus1 |
hi Jordach :P |
| 20:22 |
shivajiva |
Hi tenplus1:P |
| 20:23 |
tenplus1 |
hey shiva, how's you ? |
| 20:23 |
shivajiva |
not bad thanks :) |
| 20:23 |
tenplus1 |
le kewl :) |
| 20:23 |
shivajiva |
where you been Krock misses you ;) |
| 20:24 |
Jordach |
i have done nothing but smash for three days |
| 20:24 |
tenplus1 |
doing rl stuff :) and trying to figure out why server keeps restarting |
| 20:24 |
shivajiva |
he keeps saying hi to you but you aint here |
| 20:24 |
Jordach |
tenplus1, is it JIT running out of memory |
| 20:24 |
Jordach |
(because it certainly sounds like it) |
| 20:24 |
tenplus1 |
nah, something causing actual server to reset |
| 20:24 |
tenplus1 |
*server = physical machine |
| 20:24 |
Jordach |
uh |
| 20:25 |
tenplus1 |
did mobo testing, drive testing, psu testing,memory testing |
| 20:25 |
rud0lf |
cleaning lady unplugging server to plug vacuum cleaner in? |
| 20:25 |
tenplus1 |
checking ups and will clear logs and check them if it happens again |
| 20:25 |
tenplus1 |
lol, hope not |
| 20:25 |
Jordach |
rip |
| 20:25 |
tumeninodes |
hahaha, someone unplugging the server to use a hair dryer or something would be classic |
| 20:26 |
tenplus1 |
shinji owns server so hopeit's not someone who lives there doing just that |
| 20:26 |
Jordach |
why are you putting it in the bathroom then :thinking: |
| 20:26 |
tumeninodes |
xD |
| 20:26 |
tumeninodes |
better question... why not? |
| 20:26 |
tenplus1 |
just did modupdate tho so we;re running newer apis |
| 20:28 |
tumeninodes |
time to check those energy saver settings and the power unit |
| 20:28 |
tenplus1 |
those are set to turn off monitor only, not system... and UPS only shuts everything down when it's at 5% power |
| 20:29 |
tenplus1 |
we'll clear logs and check 'em if it happens again, should give some insight |
| 20:29 |
tumeninodes |
I had a unit once kept doing weird things, to find out there was a spider causing it all |
| 20:29 |
tenplus1 |
better not be... I'll fly over there and stomp on it myself if it is |
| 20:29 |
rud0lf |
tumeninodes: it tried to access web? |
| 20:29 |
tumeninodes |
haaaaaaahahaha |
| 20:29 |
tenplus1 |
hi rud0lf |
| 20:30 |
rud0lf |
hi tenplus1 |
| 20:30 |
shivajiva |
bios updates to mitigate Intel cpu flaws applied? |
| 20:30 |
tumeninodes |
rud0lf with your jokes so bright |
| 20:30 |
tenplus1 |
it's an AMD mobo and CPU :) |
| 20:30 |
rud0lf |
can't tell if a sarcasm or not |
| 20:30 |
tumeninodes |
an applaus |
| 20:30 |
rud0lf |
ah |
| 20:31 |
tumeninodes |
seasonal reference |
| 20:31 |
tumeninodes |
it was a brilliant joke |
| 20:31 |
tenplus1 |
also applied the SPI=off switch to stop the meltdown/spectre fixses slowing down my machines :) |
| 20:31 |
* Jordach |
releases a meltdown mod for MT |
| 20:31 |
Jordach |
as a joke and experiment |
| 20:31 |
tumeninodes |
saweet |
| 20:32 |
shivajiva |
don't eat saws man |
| 20:32 |
tumeninodes |
and just a touch of sadism |
| 20:33 |
tumeninodes |
:P |
| 20:33 |
shivajiva |
heh tumeninodes has a sadistic touch |
| 20:34 |
tumeninodes |
just a little |
| 20:34 |
tenplus1 |
:P |
| 20:36 |
* tumeninodes |
needs to go look at all my food, to decide there is nothing to eat, so I can order out |
| 20:36 |
Jordach |
i got pringles and sour cream dip |
| 20:37 |
* tenplus1 |
steals one |
| 20:37 |
* tumeninodes |
graps a pringle and heads to the cupboards |
| 20:38 |
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| 20:42 |
Jordach |
recently i've gotten awesome at decoding the errors from gcc++ |
| 20:42 |
Calinou |
Clang is known for its more informative error messages, try it out |
| 20:43 |
tenplus1 |
yay... we got errors for NaN out of range for entities in 5.0 ??? |
| 20:45 |
Jordach |
but that means setting up clang |
| 20:52 |
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| 20:52 |
tenplus1 |
hi gael |
| 20:52 |
Gael-de-Sailly |
Hi 11 :) |
| 20:52 |
tenplus1 |
o// |
| 20:54 |
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| 20:54 |
tenplus1 |
hi fussel |
| 21:07 |
IhrFussel |
I wanna straight out say that servers which make you obtain certain items to create a permanent account are utterly stupid |
| 21:07 |
IhrFussel |
And hi tenplus1 |
| 21:07 |
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paramat joined #minetest-hub |
| 21:08 |
tenplus1 |
wont that stop fake players massing and empty accounts ? |
| 21:08 |
IhrFussel |
It may be good for the server owner but not for lots of players who simply cannot find those items |
| 21:09 |
tenplus1 |
maybe adding a player chest or free store toget the item ?? |
| 21:09 |
IhrFussel |
And then after an hour or so of searching you lose connections -> SOL |
| 21:10 |
IhrFussel |
If a server uses such a system it should be an item that can be easily obtained, but I dislike such "need to have something to stay" really |
| 21:11 |
tenplus1 |
suppose it stops bot players and fake players gathering on server, but yeah, has to be made a lot easier |
| 21:11 |
IhrFussel |
If the server uses a hunger mod it adds a time limit unless you find some food |
| 21:12 |
IhrFussel |
Well you could of course go all the way back to where you were before starving but that is just tedious |
| 21:13 |
IhrFussel |
I don't believe that there are actual "bot players" ... that is just server owners who don't know better who call them that |
| 21:13 |
tenplus1 |
public farms could make items you need to stay... so long as the other players replant |
| 21:14 |
IhrFussel |
The server I tried had no public farm...or it was hidden which is no good idea |
| 21:14 |
tenplus1 |
bah! |
| 21:14 |
tenplus1 |
how about a player chest that gives basic items once only |
| 21:14 |
tenplus1 |
when they open chest and obtain items they become permanent players |
| 21:14 |
tenplus1 |
that could be easily done |
| 21:15 |
tumeninodes |
tbh, if a player cannot be bothered to put in the effort to obtain said items, is prob not a player one would desire on their server |
| 21:15 |
tenplus1 |
very true |
| 21:15 |
tumeninodes |
usually it is the ones who don;t like to put any effort in, are the ones who will eventually cause problems because that is how they have fun |
| 21:16 |
tenplus1 |
the one's who beg for items and complain theyh died :PPP |
| 21:16 |
IhrFussel |
No, in this case it was a certain ore that could be found easily but if you're not lucky it will be too late |
| 21:16 |
tumeninodes |
then set them to regenerate |
| 21:16 |
tumeninodes |
every now and then |
| 21:16 |
tumeninodes |
then it will never be "too late" |
| 21:17 |
tumeninodes |
use the same code (or similar) that apples use now |
| 21:17 |
IhrFussel |
It's not my server |
| 21:17 |
tumeninodes |
then why are you worried about it ? :P |
| 21:17 |
tenplus1 |
lol |
| 21:18 |
IhrFussel |
Cause I voice my opinion without bashing the server cause I don't mention the name |
| 21:18 |
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clavi joined #minetest-hub |
| 21:18 |
tenplus1 |
hi clavi |
| 21:18 |
IhrFussel |
It was the first server I visited that had such a system and I just think it is awful and there are better ways surely |
| 21:19 |
tumeninodes |
which is why you eventually opened your own... Everyone has their own preferences. While you may not like their setup, they do, and they may not like yours... such is life |
| 21:19 |
tenplus1 |
implementation is usually rough, takes a little time to get things working well :D |
| 21:20 |
tumeninodes |
the important bit..., it to have those options available, which people can use to set things up the way they like |
| 21:20 |
tumeninodes |
it>is |
| 21:21 |
IhrFussel |
tumeninodes, a "fair" survival server (most of you know I'm all for fairness here haha) would help you on your first steps instead of requiring something from you before you even considered a "real player" |
| 21:21 |
tumeninodes |
but that is all up to personal taste and opinions |
| 21:21 |
tenplus1 |
some signs posted at spawn you have to read to figure out how to be perma player... e.g. "go find button on red path and push"... blah! |
| 21:22 |
tenplus1 |
or... "dig down 200 blocks and pray you sdont hit lava" |
| 21:22 |
IhrFussel |
A server should at least give you the option to get some help ... options are almost never a bad thing |
| 21:22 |
tenplus1 |
ooh just read logs, CSM seems to be a tough issue... |
| 21:22 |
tumeninodes |
to state that the way someone else prefers to be set up as "stupid" is quite shallow |
| 21:22 |
tenplus1 |
are we anywhere near a switch to disable completely on servers ???? |
| 21:23 |
tumeninodes |
CSM has been a tough issue since inception :P |
| 21:23 |
tenplus1 |
very true, me no likey... if anyone uses it on Xanadu we ban now |
| 21:24 |
tumeninodes |
it's certainly not an overnight feature to implement or get right |
| 21:24 |
IhrFussel |
No it is my opinion and it should be obvious that I meant it as opinion...don't require people to always add "in my opinion" at the beginning oof their opinions |
| 21:24 |
tenplus1 |
I want an OFF switch though to disable completely |
| 21:24 |
IhrFussel |
of* |
| 21:25 |
tumeninodes |
I know it's your opinion... but sometimes you come off as putting others down for their opinions |
| 21:25 |
* tenplus1 |
wants more donut flavours in-game... just my opinion :) |
| 21:25 |
IhrFussel |
Nah, also I don't insult or bash a person, it's just a type of gameplay that I dislike in this case |
| 21:26 |
tumeninodes |
right, which is why you provide end users your own version... which is great |
| 21:26 |
* tumeninodes |
really like donuts |
| 21:27 |
tenplus1 |
has normal sugar donut, choccy donut and strawberry so far in farming redo... may add grape :) |
| 21:27 |
* tenplus1 |
likes jelly |
| 21:27 |
tumeninodes |
needs apple-cider donuts |
| 21:27 |
paramat |
yes in 5.0.0 a server can force clients to not load client-provided CSM |
| 21:27 |
tenplus1 |
ones that reverse player controls and has you staggering around |
| 21:27 |
tumeninodes |
seeing as we have apples |
| 21:27 |
tenplus1 |
paramat: thank GOD for that... |
| 21:28 |
tenplus1 |
wine mod has apple cider :PP yum |
| 21:28 |
IhrFussel |
Which can be easily reverted in the source by simply changing a c++ flag AFAIK |
| 21:28 |
Shara |
Hi tenplus1. Couldn't echo those thoughts more |
| 21:28 |
tenplus1 |
hi shara, how be you ? |
| 21:28 |
paramat |
it can be hacked around easily but, hacking can do anything |
| 21:28 |
shivajiva |
IhrFussel: you have stated you are a better server owner than the rest of us because you are somehow more reasonable, that will take a while to forget xD |
| 21:28 |
Shara |
I be sleepy |
| 21:28 |
tenplus1 |
me too, off to bed shortly |
| 21:28 |
tumeninodes |
everytie someone plugs a hacking hole... another hole pops up |
| 21:28 |
tumeninodes |
m |
| 21:29 |
Shara |
Spare a doughnut before you go? |
| 21:29 |
tenplus1 |
how about we disable CSM entirely and only have SSM |
| 21:29 |
IhrFussel |
I didn't talk about being a better server owner now, but to be fair is an important thing that not every server owner seems to agree with which IS definitely a shame |
| 21:29 |
* tenplus1 |
shares custard filled donut with carrot sprinkles |
| 21:29 |
paramat |
eheh ... see my PR |
| 21:29 |
tumeninodes |
ssshhhhhh |
| 21:29 |
* Shara |
keeps mouth shut and goes back to some other things :) |
| 21:30 |
tenplus1 |
lol |
| 21:30 |
Shara |
Actually... shut apart from doughnut noms :) |
| 21:30 |
Shara |
It must open to insert food :) |
| 21:30 |
tenplus1 |
we had player on Xanadu with rainbow text, gave everyone a headache, asked to remove, they liked it, banned! |
| 21:30 |
IhrFussel |
By "fair" I mean a lot of things... starting with "punish people for things that were never disclosed as forbidden to them" and maybe ends at "banning people for fun" |
| 21:30 |
tumeninodes |
best hing to have available in mettings where people can share their thoughts.... noms |
| 21:31 |
shivajiva |
if you look at the reactions you got it should seem clear that that was how it was taken unfortunately |
| 21:31 |
tenplus1 |
oh yes,food must be available in meetings |
| 21:31 |
Shara |
CSM should never have been allowed to affect other player's experience on the server. |
| 21:31 |
tenplus1 |
and the length of time it took to bullet proof mods so they couldnt gain access with csm... that was annoying |
| 21:31 |
IhrFussel |
shivajiva, it is not my fault when people misunderstand me...then they can ask me again for more details |
| 21:32 |
shivajiva |
so you gained the controversial tag :) |
| 21:32 |
tenplus1 |
ooh, you got a controversial award... congrats! |
| 21:32 |
* tumeninodes |
had "controversial" stamped on his head at birth |
| 21:32 |
tenplus1 |
lol |
| 21:32 |
IhrFussel |
Controversial for not applying the "im god of my server" attitude..I'm honored |
| 21:33 |
* tenplus1 |
got the sexiest man in minetest award... was honored |
| 21:33 |
tumeninodes |
but, if you have your own server, and provide end users with what you feel is a better and more fair experience..., then why worry about what others are doing? seems quite unproductive |
| 21:34 |
Shara |
I spent some time today trying to get a player NOT to call me god. |
| 21:34 |
tumeninodes |
wait... what??? 0_o |
| 21:34 |
Jordach |
paramat, almost done re-porting my set_sky stuff |
| 21:34 |
shivajiva |
see you have started that again and nobody here really thinks that, you confuse 'I pay for this so I run it my way' for god complex for all the server owners I see here |
| 21:34 |
tenplus1 |
lol, have you met shinji :) |
| 21:34 |
tenplus1 |
ehehehe |
| 21:34 |
shivajiva |
not here LOL |
| 21:34 |
Jordach |
i mean, i prefer, just dont break the server OS and you're fine |
| 21:35 |
tumeninodes |
^ |
| 21:35 |
tenplus1 |
and on that note I sleep now, gotta recharge mah batteries |
| 21:35 |
tenplus1 |
nite all o/////// |
| 21:35 |
shivajiva |
nite |
| 21:35 |
Fixer |
\\\\\\\\\o |
| 21:35 |
tumeninodes |
nites |
| 21:35 |
|
tenplus1 left #minetest-hub |
| 21:35 |
shivajiva |
that was a slow exit for tenplus, he's out of practice xD |
| 21:35 |
tumeninodes |
I have to check on my foods bfore they burn |
| 21:35 |
tumeninodes |
haha |
| 21:37 |
IhrFussel |
shivajiva, the "god complex" is when you treat players the way you want no matter how reasonable it is, you just do it cause you think you are right and the bad player is wrong |
| 21:38 |
IhrFussel |
That is exactly what god compelx is |
| 21:38 |
IhrFussel |
complex* |
| 21:38 |
shivajiva |
and nobody here that runs a server behaves in that way unless you can show me I'm wrong? |
| 21:39 |
paramat |
Fixer mind your language please |
| 21:39 |
IhrFussel |
I'm not such an asshole that I need to call out servers ... I have examples of it being real on some servers (not yours, not Shara's btw) |
| 21:41 |
IhrFussel |
But that wasn't even the topic now... I simply voiced my personal opinion about some type of gameplay that I think is really bad |
| 21:41 |
tumeninodes |
but servers like that, good end users do not stay with anyway... they move onto others, which are better and more fair. SOme end users like the abuse too though |
| 21:42 |
IhrFussel |
The probem is often not the server owner themselves... but the staff they trust blindly |
| 21:42 |
IhrFussel |
problem* |
| 21:42 |
Fixer |
hah, stuff can be sooo bad |
| 21:42 |
tumeninodes |
yeh, I've seen that happen... but it is usually among younger people |
| 21:43 |
Fixer |
also, teens hosting servers is often path to disaster |
| 21:43 |
tumeninodes |
^ |
| 21:43 |
shivajiva |
well if we are talking about servers run by people that have yet to learn proper people skills we must be talking about young people, the established servers are run by more mature individuals |
| 21:43 |
tumeninodes |
exactly |
| 21:43 |
shivajiva |
ones that realise it's 50 shades of grey not black and white |
| 21:43 |
tumeninodes |
and those are the ones which last and run higher in grading |
| 21:44 |
Fixer |
i know one teenager server owner, who had teenager admin who destroyed server map, because drama and g-d damn that ---- is annoying, can you ----- stop this discord gossip and just play? |
| 21:44 |
IhrFussel |
The server I played on earlier...gave someone the 'kick' and 'ban' priv because they were active...just cause they were active even though they are probably very young and barely know English (the server is English-centric) |
| 21:44 |
Jordach |
lmfao |
| 21:45 |
Jordach |
this is why only one person has all the privs, and fly and fast can be earned through regular gameplay |
| 21:45 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: typical carelessly teenager-run server |
| 21:45 |
* Shara |
sighs, |
| 21:45 |
tumeninodes |
open server... don't have time to run it... ban and all privs to first come first serve |
| 21:45 |
Shara |
And I suppose you know every interaction they had with that player ever to judge the decision? |
| 21:45 |
IhrFussel |
Not run by a teenager... I guess I will have to disclose the server name then...it's "Survival X" |
| 21:45 |
shivajiva |
sounds like they are desperate to have some mod presence rather than full blown anarchy |
| 21:46 |
IhrFussel |
The TOP server right now |
| 21:46 |
Fixer |
when the server has a discord, I turn suspicious |
| 21:46 |
tumeninodes |
like it was a real arm twister for you to say the name xD |
| 21:47 |
tumeninodes |
yeh Discord seems a dead giveaway |
| 21:47 |
IhrFussel |
I usually don't do that cause I think maybe my opinion could influence a few people |
| 21:47 |
Fixer |
it is gossip place |
| 21:47 |
Fixer |
full of drama |
| 21:47 |
tumeninodes |
although... Jordach had Discord... |
| 21:47 |
Fixer |
for example |
| 21:48 |
tumeninodes |
unfortunately teens today... their whole life they are exposed to drama... blame the kardashains and poor parenting |
| 21:48 |
Fixer |
server I play had discord, and there was constant bitchy-drama with those annoying teens but I was not affected with it at all, apart from map destroying, whining in chat etc %)) |
| 21:48 |
* tumeninodes |
may open a server just to torture kids muahahahahahaha |
| 21:49 |
IhrFussel |
Well I think it is fair to say that more than 50% of the MT userbase are kids... some younger than we want to believe ... I had one who said they are 6 ... not sure if it's true but imagine it were) |
| 21:49 |
tumeninodes |
and discord with txt turned off can only use emojis |
| 21:49 |
shivajiva |
stating facts as you perceive them isn't a problem IhrFussel as long as you accept you don't have the whole picture to fully judge what seems to be misguided actions |
| 21:49 |
Fixer |
i don't have discord, but I see how negatively it can affect the server, suddenly there is gossip, drama, ragequits, server shutdowns, owner banning his admins etc |
| 21:50 |
Shara |
When a server is "bad" it's usually obvious. |
| 21:50 |
Fixer |
best part is teenage owner hires teenage "IT-interested" person who backdoors the server or destroys it, --- damned it |
| 21:50 |
Shara |
Yet players still show up. |
| 21:50 |
Shara |
Because there's a load of them that love this drama |
| 21:50 |
shivajiva |
feed off the drama |
| 21:51 |
IhrFussel |
I'm not saying the server is bad... I was there and to me it looks like a generic survival server with rather few mods and basic layout/features ... if people look for exactly that it's fine |
| 21:51 |
Fixer |
it feels like amount of cancer increases proportionally to amount of communication channels, if you have IRC+discord, you have 3x as much of cancer |
| 21:51 |
Jordach |
at that point radiotherapy is needed |
| 21:51 |
Jordach |
:P |
| 21:51 |
shivajiva |
lol |
| 21:51 |
Shara |
Fixer: lack of moderation is usually the biggest issue there |
| 21:52 |
IhrFussel |
I was just expecting something special when I joined ... and I was kinda disappointed |
| 21:52 |
Shara |
I saw a few servers adding discord bots to the IRC channel, but who is moderating there when the admin si away? |
| 21:52 |
Shara |
is* |
| 21:52 |
Fixer |
there are also some players that are commited griefers on overclocking levels |
| 21:52 |
Jordach |
only issue with too much moderation, see VE's servers |
| 21:53 |
Jordach |
servers are pretty much dead or have 1-2 players |
| 21:53 |
Shara |
Even if I had op in the IRC channel, would owner be okay wiht me banning the bot if all else fails? It gets harder to manage.. |
| 21:53 |
Fixer |
probably dead because most players are mobile and they can't handle such memory fat servers |
| 21:53 |
Shara |
Jordach: RC is pretty healthy with a strong moderator team |
| 21:53 |
Jordach |
hands off approach tho |
| 21:54 |
Jordach |
VE's might as well be handled with JCBa |
| 21:54 |
Jordach |
s/a/b/g |
| 21:54 |
IhrFussel |
And about the staff: I read it in the forum ... a few players just had to say "yes he is good staff" and he got approved... Not the best method to decide on staff |
| 21:54 |
Fixer |
also, some players like to set up their bots on server IRC/discord and they do stuff like posting that 500kilobyte 4chan story or smth |
| 21:55 |
tumeninodes |
the world needs more real parks... less servers... is the real problem |
| 21:55 |
Fixer |
we have more servers than people |
| 21:55 |
Fixer |
players want vibrant community, like hometown or smth |
| 21:55 |
tumeninodes |
kids need to get back to bullying and beating up on others in real life, not virtually |
| 21:55 |
Jordach |
^ |
| 21:55 |
Jordach |
meatspace is important, yo |
| 21:55 |
Fixer |
it is just not interesting to play on empty server, you want activity going on |
| 21:56 |
tumeninodes |
haha |
| 21:56 |
Shara |
Heh |
| 21:56 |
shivajiva |
it's a fact that the kids like personalities and show up expecting to see certain moderators at certain times, this is exploited by the servers where possible to maintain a good player base and a friendly atmosphere when the price is manageable. It's a good tactic if you know how people work |
| 21:56 |
Shara |
Fixer: problem is everyone wants their own server to be the boss or do it their own way |
| 21:56 |
Jordach |
i liked krays server for that reason |
| 21:56 |
Jordach |
griefing was solved by griefing |
| 21:56 |
tumeninodes |
eye for an eye? |
| 21:57 |
Jordach |
more like dont step on me |
| 21:57 |
shivajiva |
gang warfare lol |
| 21:58 |
tumeninodes |
ooooh just had an idea for a "pants" mod... so players can go around pulling down other players pants to embarrass them xD |
| 21:58 |
Jordach |
ironically, it does actually work on 2b2t |
| 21:58 |
paramat |
good grief reading logs from this channel about CSM ... |
| 21:58 |
Jordach |
https://2b2t.miraheze.org/wiki/Timeline |
| 21:58 |
tumeninodes |
beerholder has the idea... open server... everyone is on their own... |
| 21:58 |
tumeninodes |
complete anarchy |
| 21:59 |
shivajiva |
paramat: It was made clear trying to blame you doesn't mean shit |
| 21:59 |
Shara |
^ |
| 22:00 |
tumeninodes |
I only blame paramat for no rivers on MGflat :P |
| 22:00 |
tumeninodes |
actually, everyone who would oppose it so... not him |
| 22:00 |
Jordach |
and we blame server admins for trying to enforce their views :^) |
| 22:00 |
|
Miner_48er joined #minetest-hub |
| 22:00 |
Fixer |
Jordach: nah, I've played on his other, less griefed one |
| 22:00 |
Jordach |
i didn't mean a server admin here :^) |
| 22:00 |
shivajiva |
consensus enforces views |
| 22:01 |
Fixer |
Jordach: 2b is shit these days, goto -iam or 9b |
| 22:01 |
Fixer |
cons-iam chat is amazing |
| 22:01 |
Fixer |
like actual people |
| 22:01 |
tumeninodes |
given the lack of real life situations today, it is good to punish kids for bad behavior, else we have a future society of absolute assholes |
| 22:02 |
Fixer |
and some 4chan pastas |
| 22:02 |
Fixer |
do we have /ignore in minetest? |
| 22:02 |
shivajiva |
trumpets |
| 22:02 |
shivajiva |
as I like to call them |
| 22:02 |
IhrFussel |
BTW: The "players choose their server" is not 100% true these days...there are several apps on the app store which restrict servers client side ... you have to collect COINS to unlock FREE servers by watching ads or paying money |
| 22:03 |
tumeninodes |
well..., that is a whole other topic right there |
| 22:03 |
tumeninodes |
and a problem for the entire project |
| 22:03 |
Fixer |
if only LazyJ updated his server to 0.4.17...... |
| 22:03 |
IhrFussel |
Yes but I wanted to mention it ... players can be theoretically "locked" on a server they don't like until they got enough "coins" |
| 22:04 |
Fixer |
o_O |
| 22:04 |
tumeninodes |
people making $ no matter how little, while placing a bad aura over the entire project is a serious problem |
| 22:04 |
paramat |
it looks like nrz's f*cked up attitude was addressed, thanks |
| 22:05 |
IhrFussel |
Another problem with many apps: They only list the first few top servers and NOT the whole list which is why most servers are always dead |
| 22:05 |
paramat |
confirms my suspicions |
| 22:05 |
Shara |
paramat: you are very welcome. It's good if we can healthy discussion about CSM, but trying to blame someone like that isn't okay |
| 22:05 |
tumeninodes |
0_0 did paramat just swear????? |
| 22:05 |
tumeninodes |
(gasp) Sssssssquidward! |
| 22:05 |
paramat |
the development of CSM was a complete disaster and nrz deluded us |
| 22:05 |
Fixer |
server owners had to mention to player they play MINETEST, not some ad-dystopian-parasite app |
| 22:06 |
paramat |
heh almost swore |
| 22:06 |
tumeninodes |
haha |
| 22:06 |
|
nerzhul_ joined #minetest-hub |
| 22:06 |
nerzhul |
paramat are you serious |
| 22:06 |
Fixer |
i like csm in minecraft, stuff like sorting inventory, mapping, hud, that can be useful for minetest for sure |
| 22:06 |
IhrFussel |
Fixer, I did that a few months ago... but most people either don't care or don't read ... it was useless so I removed it again from the join message |
| 22:06 |
Fixer |
chat improvements |
| 22:06 |
tumeninodes |
oh boy... duck n cover |
| 22:07 |
nerzhul |
disaster in what ? |
| 22:07 |
Jordach |
ruining minetest game? |
| 22:07 |
nerzhul |
because you didn't provide any feature on it ? |
| 22:07 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: just add a big MINETEST word in the sky with a smaller sign with details |
| 22:07 |
tumeninodes |
this would so be a perfect moment to do a -hub maint shutdown |
| 22:08 |
tumeninodes |
where's Fuchs? :P |
| 22:08 |
nerzhul |
Shara, where is healthy discussion when the only discussion from paramat is remove it |
| 22:08 |
paramat |
if you don't support SSCSM i don't trust you to code it, leave it to someone else |
| 22:08 |
Jordach |
not giving a Fuch, clearly, tumeninodes |
| 22:08 |
IhrFussel |
Fixer, it gets really bad when players blame YOU (the server owner) for V.I.P requirements or displaying ads |
| 22:08 |
nerzhul |
i support SSCSM idea but i don't have time to code it |
| 22:08 |
tumeninodes |
haha |
| 22:09 |
nerzhul |
i said that 8 month said and ? nothing |
| 22:09 |
paramat |
i am not tryng to remove it obviously, i could try to, it's tempting, but i'm compromising |
| 22:09 |
nerzhul |
nothing get time to code it |
| 22:09 |
Fixer |
IhrFussel: make new players read the rules, that also address those problems with fake VIP and just use official client |
| 22:09 |
nerzhul |
sorry but, one pr which remove all he code |
| 22:09 |
nerzhul |
one pr which disable the code |
| 22:09 |
nerzhul |
one pr which drop the code again |
| 22:09 |
nerzhul |
but no |
| 22:10 |
paramat |
you don't suppotr SSCSM clearly from what you've written. you got CPCSM then walked away |
| 22:10 |
nerzhul |
i don't say i don't support it |
| 22:10 |
nerzhul |
stop that shit |
| 22:10 |
nerzhul |
i say i don't see why we need this NOW |
| 22:10 |
nerzhul |
NOW for the 5.0.0 release which should happen earlier this year in july ! |
| 22:11 |
paramat |
read the logs |
| 22:11 |
nerzhul |
i know what i said |
| 22:11 |
Jordach |
there's probably 600 things more important than ramming your PR through everything |
| 22:11 |
nerzhul |
and it's what i just said now |
| 22:11 |
paramat |
you can't be trusted with CSM clearly, someone else can do it |
| 22:11 |
nerzhul |
i don't know why i should try to release MT in fast |
| 22:11 |
nerzhul |
fact*7 |
| 22:12 |
nerzhul |
because nobody wants to release it |
| 22:12 |
nerzhul |
if you are the mt life saver go ahead |
| 22:12 |
* Shara |
sighs a few more sighs |
| 22:12 |
shivajiva |
I think you have too realise that paramats efforts are supported by a lot of server owners and that is why he's persistently trying to compromise for us, it's not like he stands alone in that respect |
| 22:12 |
Jordach |
except those servers are made possible by mods |
| 22:12 |
|
Tmanyo joined #minetest-hub |
| 22:12 |
Jordach |
admins just do the hard bit of making sure people aren't stupid |
| 22:13 |
nerzhul |
there is a difference between compromise and not release MT since 6 month because there is only compromise and no real solutions |
| 22:13 |
tumeninodes |
personally, I am glad 5.0.0 is taking so long to release... such a significant release should not be rushed to meet end users whines or expectations as to when |
| 22:14 |
Fixer |
maybe there needs to be 0.4.18 again |
| 22:14 |
nerzhul |
tumeninodes a devel program which should be released 6 month ago but nobody take the ownership is not in a good health, sorry |
| 22:14 |
shivajiva |
if paramat hadn't sorted the sneak in the way he did a lot of people would have walked away, he was the only person willing to compromise and did so quickly for the community as a whole |
| 22:15 |
Jordach |
sneak was basically a house of cards waiting to fall over |
| 22:15 |
nerzhul |
and if i didn't rewrote some core engine non visible parts for server owners MT code should have been as bad as in 2015 in terms of performance with ~30% less performance |
| 22:15 |
tumeninodes |
just keep up with minor fix releases to keep the project in the active status and keep end user intrerest... 5.0.0 is not the same as other prior releases ever |
| 22:15 |
Jordach |
tumeninodes, considering some servers and games depend on the API therein, hmm |
| 22:15 |
Fixer |
nerzhul: no need to rush with release tbh, just do 0.4.18 |
| 22:15 |
nerzhul |
one problem server owner miss is the voxel game mode is finished |
| 22:16 |
nerzhul |
Fixer nothing to backport |
| 22:16 |
Fixer |
also, everyone is focused on engine, god damn, please think of the chil-. minetest game! :D |
| 22:16 |
nerzhul |
and to be honest again a backport risky bugfix (if needed), whereas 2 times we said no and now we said yes ? |
| 22:16 |
nerzhul |
i think mtg also requires a release, you are right |
| 22:16 |
nerzhul |
it's 0.4.17 |
| 22:16 |
nerzhul |
or 0.4.16 code no ? |
| 22:17 |
nerzhul |
the game doesn't evolve too |
| 22:17 |
Shara |
nerzhul: we know you did a lot of good things, and no one has said otherwise, but CSM has left many people angry |
| 22:17 |
Jordach |
CSM was meant to be done in smaller parts |
| 22:17 |
nerzhul |
i would said hungry |
| 22:17 |
Jordach |
not just a oversized PR |
| 22:17 |
Fixer |
it feels like developers can creampie some comp breaking code into the engine before 5.0 |
| 22:17 |
nerzhul |
we didn't break the lua part :) |
| 22:17 |
nerzhul |
except if i miss something during my vacation |
| 22:17 |
tumeninodes |
afk |
| 22:17 |
shivajiva |
I'm 100% sure everybody appreciated that nerzhul, who wouldn't appreciate the game running faster. |
| 22:18 |
nerzhul |
one thing i'm sure, a game active without release is considered dead by the community |
| 22:18 |
nerzhul |
because client wants more features too |
| 22:19 |
nerzhul |
and as i said, release 5.0.0 and push SSCSM in the 5.1 roadmap let's go guys |
| 22:19 |
Jordach |
remember, catering to whiners created Minetest Gma |
| 22:19 |
xerox123 |
hello all |
| 22:19 |
Jordach |
Game |
| 22:19 |
nerzhul |
Jordach oO ? |
| 22:19 |
nerzhul |
mtg was a drama ? |
| 22:20 |
shivajiva |
this is minetest, everything is a drama |
| 22:20 |
Fixer |
I waited 6 years for carts drama |
| 22:20 |
Shara |
Sneak sneak sneak!! (sorry :P) |
| 22:20 |
Jordach |
even minecraft forge devs faster than MT |
| 22:21 |
nerzhul |
Jordach and release often |
| 22:21 |
nerzhul |
our devel mod has problems |
| 22:21 |
nerzhul |
5.0.0 was breaing right |
| 22:21 |
Fixer |
I still remember 2011 or smth, standing on a big road along the shore, elevated, it had tracks going far, little I know it will need 6 years or so to have official carts in game |
| 22:21 |
nerzhul |
then take 1 year to release, not 19 months :( |
| 22:21 |
Jordach |
nerzhul, i've just gone and exposed most of the sky stuff to Lua, including some fancies |
| 22:21 |
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| 22:21 |
Fixer |
i was so excited in 2011, oh boy, those nice tracks :D |
| 22:21 |
Fixer |
and in 2017 or when you merged carts, that was amazing |
| 22:21 |
nerzhul |
Fixed the problem is we are too genereic |
| 22:21 |
Fixer |
fuckinb finally |
| 22:22 |
nerzhul |
some objects needs less genericity than the SAO |
| 22:22 |
Fixer |
To see carts in Minetest Game and to die |
| 22:23 |
IhrFussel |
You didn't think enough of server owners when you implemented CSM... you didn't properly calculate risks of 'ore_detect', 'colored chat SERVER SIDE' and more |
| 22:23 |
Shara |
I still remember being told players should have the right to do as they like, and CSM presented in a way to protect the players from server owners |
| 22:24 |
Shara |
It was hard to think anything positive about it or the development of it, when the message was "server owners bad, players must be given more power to fight back against them!" |
| 22:25 |
nerzhul |
IhrFussel in fact you are right my first idea was to have a generic lua stack without features |
| 22:25 |
nerzhul |
then i started adding calls on client |
| 22:25 |
nerzhul |
to access to client data |
| 22:25 |
nerzhul |
and then ore drama |
| 22:25 |
nerzhul |
then flavour |
| 22:26 |
nerzhul |
then CSM with more API |
| 22:26 |
nerzhul |
then current state |
| 22:28 |
IhrFussel |
I know, but unfortunately 0.4.17.1 servers cannot make use of those 5.0.0 restrictions |
| 22:28 |
IhrFussel |
That is likely what makes server owners mad |
| 22:29 |
shivajiva |
that and the fact we had to fight for any restrictions |
| 22:31 |
Jordach |
MT is stupidly mismanaged, it makes the crap microsoft put out look coherent |
| 22:33 |
Jordach |
the way i see it is, that a fork of MT with 50% of previous major contribs gets chosen over the current mt/mt on GH |
| 22:33 |
Jordach |
either that or the userbase bleeds off *completely* |
| 22:33 |
Jordach |
are we a game engine, or a game? because one dictates the other |
| 22:34 |
nerzhul |
IhrFussel and the 5.0.0 release delay doesn't help, but is this my fault, no |
| 22:35 |
IhrFussel |
No, but it doesn't help current servers ... and even if 5.0.0 released today I doubt that any servers with an established userbase would upgrade to that now ... they would lose lots of active players |
| 22:36 |
shivajiva |
not your fault nerzhul, I'm not saying that either, this was badly managed that's all |
| 22:37 |
nerzhul |
yeah it was badly managed, and the more we wait for 5.0.0 to be released the more you won't have flavours to fix that problem |
| 22:38 |
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| 22:38 |
shivajiva |
that's why I'm trying to find out where this is going from your perspective |
| 22:38 |
IhrFussel |
Servers with many mods (like mine) need to be extensively tested before they can be used in production (although not much should break for the API) |
| 22:38 |
nerzhul |
IhrFussel the compat break is another problem but was announced 2 years ago |
| 22:38 |
paramat |
c55 wants server admin opinions https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7949#issuecomment-445577766 |
| 22:38 |
tumeninodes |
every software has breaking releases |
| 22:38 |
nerzhul |
as i already said ,except if i miss some PR no API breakage has been done |
| 22:39 |
nerzhul |
we just have protocol break between client & server |
| 22:39 |
IhrFussel |
I think there are a few things... position offset for player model, mapgen stuff and some more IIRC |
| 22:39 |
nerzhul |
but i never see a game where it's a huge problem with custom servers (CS, CoD, ARK...) |
| 22:40 |
nerzhul |
IhrFussel right, offset i missed |
| 22:40 |
nerzhul |
mapgen stuff should not break maps, if i remember it applied to newly generated blocks |
| 22:41 |
tumeninodes |
better to be late, than to put out a hyped up release, and get poor reviews because it doesn;t live up to the hype... that kills projects quicker than a late release |
| 22:42 |
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| 22:45 |
tumeninodes |
one thing to think about... it is not like those who use the MT engine are going to drop it, and use a different engine..., because there is not one avail. At least none which are as good as MT |
| 22:46 |
tumeninodes |
sounds obnoxious, but it's true |
| 22:48 |
tumeninodes |
it's not really "mismanaged"... it is an open source, volunteer basis dev project. comparing it's development and release schedule to another with a multi-million $ backing is off the mark |
| 22:49 |
tumeninodes |
5.0.0 is marked as a "serious" release... and has no actual "due date" or deadline |
| 22:49 |
Fixer |
right |
| 22:50 |
tumeninodes |
in the mean time, there are still plenty of .this and .thats which can be utilized until 5.0.0 is truly ready, and lives up to the hype |
| 22:51 |
tumeninodes |
no one is at fault... shit happens |
| 22:53 |
tumeninodes |
blaming and egos cause stagnation... wipe up the spilled milk and carry on |
| 22:54 |
tumeninodes |
and anyone who asks "When is 5.0.0 coming..?" can be shot on sight |
| 22:55 |
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| 22:56 |
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| 22:58 |
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| 22:58 |
nerzhul |
shot me then :D |
| 22:58 |
tumeninodes |
xD |
| 22:58 |
nerzhul |
you know 5.0.0 is coming when winter is coming, after 8 seasons |
| 22:58 |
tumeninodes |
nah... we need you |
| 22:59 |
tumeninodes |
hey, as long as no one says "which WInter" we're good |
| 22:59 |
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| 23:01 |
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| 23:02 |
tumeninodes |
Lavos wth? |
| 23:04 |
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| 23:11 |
paramat |
nerz please don't keep blaming everyone for the release delay, 5.0.0 has taken time for very good reason. we have 'taken ownership of the release', i'm the person who has, more than anyone, made it happen, not a long-absent dev who pops up and is seemingly trying to take the credit for making the release happen |
| 23:12 |
nerzhul |
another time you miss the point |
| 23:12 |
nerzhul |
you really think i care about credit on the release lol ? seriously guy ? |
| 23:12 |
nerzhul |
i just want the release to be a reality, i don't care about credit |
| 23:12 |
nerzhul |
and no you didn't take ownership because there is no feature freeze discussion except mine |
| 23:13 |
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| 23:18 |
paramat |
your feature freeze suggestion is ridiculous. anyone can ask for a feature freeze, i kept MT alive and brought us to release |
| 23:18 |
nerzhul |
lol |
| 23:19 |
nerzhul |
i agree you did community things |
| 23:19 |
nerzhul |
it's nice |
| 23:19 |
paramat |
i wish hmmmm was here, he wouldn't take this crap |
| 23:19 |
nerzhul |
but no you didn't triggered a release process with feature freeze |
| 23:19 |
sfan5 |
this is some next level toxic retardation |
| 23:19 |
nerzhul |
but hmmmm has left project since 2 years |
| 23:20 |
paramat |
he left mostly because of your attitude |
| 23:20 |
nerzhul |
hmm not only, because it was less interested by the project too |
| 23:21 |
paramat |
true yes |
| 23:21 |
nerzhul |
now i just want to make 5.0.0 a reality, else i don't know when it will be released but what thing is sure, voxel games era is over since 1 year at least |
| 23:22 |
nerzhul |
it's battle arena era currently |
| 23:22 |
nerzhul |
i go to bed, see you alter |
| 23:22 |
nerzhul |
later* |
| 23:28 |
shivajiva |
gn nerzhul |
| 23:29 |
paramat |
5.0.0 will have been released with or without you, it's not you who has made it happen |
| 23:32 |
Peppy |
what will the minimum version of Android required for 5.0 ? (players keep asking) |
| 23:34 |
shivajiva |
I don't think nrz believes he's making it happen, he's just trying to inject some energy |
| 23:38 |
Peppy |
wiki says "Android 4.0 or later" I guess this stands for 0.4.16 as the page is quite old |
| 23:38 |
Jordach |
not everyone wants their name plastered all over the place like a knockoff kardashian |
| 23:38 |
Jordach |
some of us like getting into the codebase and busy with new stuff |
| 23:39 |
rubenwardy |
Paramat helping review blockers is more helpful for the release than suggesting a freeze |
| 23:41 |
Fixer |
most of the time it is paramat in comments |
| 23:46 |
paramat |
it's a difficult situation. once CSM is coded in an open source project it's essentially screwed, hacking is reduced to altering one line. sometimes it seems the only way to make the drawbacks worthwhile is to have the advantages of full server-sent CSM |
| 23:47 |
paramat |
so again, everything or nothing, not CPCSM alone |
| 23:47 |
paramat |
so please support my PR https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7949 |
| 23:48 |
paramat |
ideally CSM should be moved back out to a development branch, due to the big security issues and testing it will need |
| 23:49 |
paramat |
then remerged when complete and if safe |
| 23:50 |
tumeninodes |
if this is the concensus among the server owners/operators, that is the way to go... server owners are the top customers/concerns for MT and MTG |
| 23:50 |
tumeninodes |
2d comes the end users... who most of their experience is via the servers they play on |
| 23:52 |
Shara |
I'd argue that depends on the issue, but CSm is definitely a server owner issue |
| 23:52 |
tumeninodes |
true, it does depend but most of the user base is via servers |
| 23:53 |
tumeninodes |
the rest of the user base are sole/creative users and psychopaths |
| 23:55 |
tumeninodes |
the voxel game era is not dead... it has simply flatlined or plataued but will continue to remain relevant. Someone can also create an arena/voxel game using MT if that is the big thing... arena ga,es have also been around forever |
| 23:56 |
paramat |
i'm happy it's less fashionable, smaller 'cult game' communities are nicer |
| 23:56 |
tumeninodes |
CSM as it is currently, is a nightmare for server owners and that should be focused on. Should be an optional feature regardless |
| 23:57 |
tumeninodes |
maybe developed as a plugin |
| 23:57 |
tumeninodes |
paramat, I agree |
