Time  Nick           Message
00:02 VanessaE       ~tell tenplus1 https://gitlab.com/VanessaE/plantlife_modpack/commit/08698ecd601c5b0a0fa3aa62be2a17a496169cd4  you may want to apply this to vines or at least patch it in by hand.
00:02 ShadowBot      VanessaE: O.K.
00:29 luk3yx         rubenwardy: I can't set a repository URL in content.minetest.net, it says "Unknown server error".
00:31 rubenwardy     Don't set one then click next
00:31 rubenwardy     If you get an error on create, go to your user profile and find the created mod
00:54 luk3yx         It works
10:39 nerzhul        hey nore :)
10:39 nore           hey :)
10:39 nore           what's up?
10:40 nerzhul        there is some down haha
10:41 nore           oh ^^'
10:52 shivajiva      Hi nerzhul, when do you propose to give us the proper csm on the road map, the one where it's sent from the server to the client?
10:53 nerzhul        i give that after 5.0.0 release and paramat stop to demotivate myself from working on MT by trying to remove the feature.
10:54 shivajiva      why did you implement it like this instead of how it was supposed to work?
10:55 shivajiva      from my perspective it looked like you were trying to break mt not fix it
10:55 shivajiva      and the answer as to the timeline means probably never, right?
10:56 nerzhul        because we need this to have feature work properly
10:56 nerzhul        break MT with non used code if you don't code mode ? interesting concept
10:56 nerzhul        mod*
10:57 nerzhul        shivajiva i'm tired to battle for this feature. If you want server side sent features stop make me tired by loosing time to justify why it's designed like this.
10:57 shivajiva      blaming paramat for preventing you doing it properly is just dumb, makes you look spoilt from over here
10:57 nerzhul        the design is good. You just miss a channel to publish the mod, and it's the most sensible part, it's not the CSM implementation.
10:57 shivajiva      paramat is trying to secure it
10:57 nerzhul        by publishing removal pr ?
10:57 nerzhul        lol
10:58 nerzhul        is this the trump way against mexicans ?
10:58 shivajiva      don't be crass, I'm trying to workout why we are in stasis with csm
10:59 nerzhul        5.0.0 should have been published 6 month ago, but it was not published due to my afk, it's because nobody take ownership on the release, it's bad for the project.
10:59 Krock          because nobody is keen on implementing SSCSM
10:59 nerzhul        the SSCSM part is the most code sensible part
10:59 Krock          nerzhul: no because the Android build still sucked. We finally need to know whether the error flood is finally fixed
10:59 nerzhul        you think it's easy but it's more complex than security SSM itself from rogue mods
11:00 nerzhul        Krock yeah i missed that part, you are right
11:00 nerzhul        but it's one issue
11:00 shivajiva      you refuse to move it forward because you don't like what paramat is doing, that's what you just said, wasn't it?
11:00 Krock          now the rotation issue needs fixing. I'd also like to at least fix the HUDs a bit
11:00 nerzhul        which can be handled in a feature freeze if there is efforts :)
11:00 nerzhul        Krock what's the problem with HUD ?
11:00 nerzhul        rotation problems mentioned by pgimeno ?
11:01 Krock          nerzhul: the builtin HUDs have a race condition, causing weird effects when altering the flags or replacing them
11:02 Krock          and yes, the Z=0 issue
11:02 nerzhul        shivajiva: if you prefer to build a wall tp revent migrants (features) from coming instead of taking time to understand the issue and found the good solution
11:02 Krock          * Z!=0
11:02 nerzhul        okay, for the builtin hud is this due to the id problem ?
11:02 nerzhul        i think we can trigger the feature freeze and take time to fix those issues instead of adding new mor features
11:03 nerzhul        else the 5.1 will happen in 10 years because there will not be sufficient features to push :p
11:05 nerzhul        servers can block the problematic CSM features
11:05 nerzhul        (for server owners)
11:06 nerzhul        and CSM mods can start to pop with the current features. remember you can start to code a CSM mod client side to see what are the interesting features, and i don't see any interesting CSM mod which can be sent from server in the future
11:06 nerzhul        then i don't understand why we want to have SSCSM whereas there are no real SSCSM mod usage in the forum mod store
11:07 shivajiva      when we work on features that slow a monolith down, there has to be balance between speed enhancement and features or this thing grinds to a halt. I want balance and things done appropriately in sequence, the feature is a partial implementation of the roadmap feature that has had it's issues so for me it could be removed
11:07 shivajiva      and you just stated no real requirement for it
11:08 nerzhul        i think you misunderstand CSM
11:08 nerzhul        you cannot offload most of your server work client side due to security
11:08 nerzhul        you can offload at least 10 or 15% of the server work in the best case
11:08 nerzhul        client must be more secure than server
11:08 shivajiva      probably, what was it considered for then?
11:09 nerzhul        enhancing client only performance
11:09 nerzhul        for example you can do custom chat print
11:09 shivajiva      if we can't do SCSM what is it in there for?
11:09 nerzhul        you can also enacle the ore detection and enable a feature to show them to players if you want
11:09 shivajiva      so players can have pretty text?
11:09 shivajiva      or cheat?
11:09 nerzhul        yep or have filtering
11:10 nerzhul        no cheat possible except if the mod alter the that
11:10 shivajiva      wow
11:10 nerzhul        chat*
11:10 nerzhul        but it's CSM mod owner (or in the future SSCSM mod owner) responsibility
11:10 nerzhul        you should really look at the API
11:10 nerzhul        i don't have all feature in my head
11:10 shivajiva      all this crap for coloured text and ore sniffing seems wrong somehow
11:10 nerzhul        but for example you cannot alter the map
11:11 nerzhul        and you will never have this possibility
11:11 nerzhul        or alter the objects
11:11 nerzhul        but you can have some client formspec
11:11 nerzhul        for example to have an admin panel for admins to send commands to server through mod channel
11:12 nerzhul        world edit panel client side for example
11:12 nerzhul        or inventory formspec client side
11:12 nerzhul        (it's a good performance improvement if correctly done because inventory formspec in some mods is slow, with CSM no perf penalty)
11:13 nerzhul        i think formspec can be all offloaded client side
11:13 shivajiva      that would be a good poc but where is it, this whole thing has impeded progress imo
11:13 nerzhul        did you looked at this forum ? https://forum.minetest.net/viewforum.php?f=53
11:14 nerzhul        there are some ideas of the possibilities
11:14 nerzhul        and as you see there is no exploit
11:14 nerzhul        https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=18657
11:15 nerzhul        what a nice idea
11:15 nerzhul        i didn't thought about this when wrinting API :)
11:15 shivajiva      when eyes and ears are not enough we have a csm to tell us the tool is wearing...really
11:16 shivajiva      it's what I like to call fluff
11:16 nerzhul        lazy players :p
11:17 nerzhul        but i didn't thought about that usecase, it's just creative :)
11:17 shivajiva      it brings nothing real to the game though :)
11:19 nerzhul        sorry but having a notification about breaking why not if you have eye problems :p
11:19 nerzhul        with a sound hah
11:20 nerzhul        https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=21440 is a nice thing, a very good offload :)
11:20 nerzhul        then, no need to worry about this, if you find all those mod useless it prooves that CSM has no problem in your use case
11:21 shivajiva      just trying to workout where this is all going and how it helps 5.0 because we have so few devs
11:21 nerzhul        you are wrong.
11:21 nerzhul        CSM doesn't cover rogue usage
11:21 nerzhul        then it's good for 5.0.0
11:22 shivajiva      and why you seem to have stopped developing it towards the roadmap feature
11:22 nerzhul        i stopped to develop CSM when the API was mature
11:22 shivajiva      I'm probably not the only one wondering
11:22 nerzhul        yeah we don't have SSCSM but we can do that in a future release
11:22 nerzhul        remember MT 0.4.0 ?
11:22 shivajiva      nope
11:22 nerzhul        many features are missing and the community was not like today.
11:23 nerzhul        there was 30% of the current API in SSM
11:23 nerzhul        now just release that fucking 5.0.0 and go ahead with 5.1 with waited features
11:24 nerzhul        if nobody from server moders find CSM useful, then SSCSM is not useful for them => no need to worry about the SSCSM feature
11:24 nerzhul        in development a program is never finished
11:24 nerzhul        ls and grep commands have patches, 10 years after the last commit,
11:25 shivajiva      okay I have my answer, thank you
11:26 nerzhul        i will take time in 5.1 series to : SSCSM + refactor the code to enhance the code quality and coverage
11:27 nerzhul        but in 5.1
11:27 nerzhul        now i need to take time to finish the latest refactor PR i want to have in 5.0.0 and update the changelog
11:54 Fixer          (20 years later)
11:55 Fixer          when nerzhul kid goes to uni minetest finally releases 5.0
11:55 Fixer          's
11:55 Fixer          *please don't rush it anyway, polish it
11:55 * Fixer        dives out
11:59 nerzhul        6 months of polishing
11:59 nerzhul        since last release date...
11:59 nerzhul        or 8
11:59 Shara          Server owners in general have seemed really unhappy with CSM... server owners being the ones most affected by it. Yet server owners get shot down over and over when they say they are unhappy with the thing.
11:59 * Shara        sighs
12:00 nerzhul        Shara server owners are never happy but it's like french people :p
12:00 Shara          nerzhul: as you like to tell other people, you're wrong. There's plenty I am very happy about. CSm is not a thing I am happy with.
12:01 Shara          You did huge damage to the MT community with this thing.
12:01 Shara          Blaming paramat for you not finishing it is quite pathetic.
12:01 Fixer          eh, problem with cheaters?
12:02 Shara          Fixer: problem about control.
12:02 Fixer          ah
12:02 Shara          My server, should be my rules yes?
12:02 Shara          Lots of servers have a rule... found using CSM? Ban.
12:02 Shara          This is how fed up people are.
12:03 Shara          And it's sad, because there are aq couple of okay mods
12:03 Shara          a*
12:03 Shara          But really, coloured text and sound alerts... not really seeing that it was worth so much dev time.
12:03 Shara          Was it worth how upset and angry it made so many people?
12:03 Shara          It could have been a good thing, but it has been handled poorly
12:04 Krock          but I like my colored names
12:05 Shara          Krock: Why could that not have just been something built into options for clients then?
12:05 Krock          in the engine or as SSM?
12:06 Shara          Could it not have been done in the engine to add it as a setting for players?
12:06 Shara          If coloured names is so important...
12:06 Krock          someone else might want a PM "ding"
12:06 Fixer          Shara: are there rogue CSM mods out there?
12:07 Shara          Fixer: no idea anymore.
12:07 Shara          I am fairly sure there were item duping bugs on one of my servers shortly after CSM was added, and no, it could not have been due tot he WE issue.
12:07 Shara          But hard to prove such things
12:07 Shara          And I prefer not to work off guesses
12:08 Krock          list[player:MyPlayerName;hand;1,1;1,1]  rogue CSM done
12:08 Shara          Either way - it has caused a lot of annoyance
12:11 Shara          What I would love is a meaningful way to offload things to clients, that is under my control. I thought that was the end goal, but based on what nerzhul has said, I'm clearly mistaken, and the goal was coloured text and alert sounds all along.
12:12 Krock          I also expected SSCSMs to be a thing earlier but yet it did not happen :/
12:12 Shara          Well, over a year and no progress, yet paramat get slammed for calling this out
12:13 Shara          gets*
12:13 Shara          And it seems more and more like CSM devs never planned to do SSCSM
12:13 Krock          mainly because red-001_ and a few other people lost interest in developing it
12:13 Krock          also that, yes.
12:14 Shara          You can't expect server owners to be okay with that kind of break in trust
12:14 Krock          even if SSCSMs were a thing, copying the mod loading function from server to client would evil users to "cheat" anyway
12:15 Krock          *users allow to
12:15 Shara          Whole thing never should have been started then really.
12:15 Shara          Big features like this... they should have a clear plan before they are done, and the plan should actually be followed.
12:15 ANAND          How do other games achieve this then, while avoiding the cheating portion of it?
12:17 Shara          ANAND: probably better planning and more thought into what should or should not be client controlled.
12:17 nerzhul        ANAND just look at World of Warcraft
12:17 nerzhul        they permit cheat until 1.10.0 version in vanilla because they permit to cast spell in mods :p
12:17 nerzhul        then you can program your whole dps cycle :p
12:18 ANAND          True, Shara.
12:18 Shara          I'm fine with the client being able to set things like text font/colour/size and so on... that's actually good for accessability issues
12:18 nerzhul        many programs doesn't have a SSCSM because there is no sense to have it
12:18 nerzhul        they are not as modular as MT is
12:18 nerzhul        they are just game in a finished state
12:18 ANAND          Then maybe we could adapt WoW's anti-cheat measures, nerzhul?
12:18 Shara          nerzhul: so now you say SSCSM is pointless?
12:18 nerzhul        ANAND the wow warden ?
12:19 ANAND          Idk what WoW is, I'm just asking :)
12:19 nerzhul        Shara, i say if i look at the forum CSM mods they are useful but not for a global usage, for some users only
12:20 nerzhul        then i don't think SSCSM is useful there. If a user want to customize its chat it's for him, i don't see why a server owner should own this and do what he wants
12:20 Shara          So CSm was implemented with zero plan of following the actual plan
12:20 nerzhul        user experience in modded games is done by users themselves, not the game owners, see skyrim, WoW and others
12:20 nerzhul        CSM was implemented to work without distribution channel
12:20 nerzhul        just like the broken modstore (before ruben rewrite it)
12:21 nerzhul        in a single player experience CSM is totally useful
12:21 Shara          Ability to customise text colours feels like a thing that should actually be int he engine to me.
12:21 nerzhul        Shara it's in the engine
12:21 Shara          You miss the point. Players should not need mods for this
12:21 nerzhul        you can just alter the string, if you set colors it show colors
12:21 nerzhul        okay let me show you example of what is a very nice modding community (outside MT)
12:22 nerzhul        https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons
12:22 Shara          I don't care about WoW
12:22 Shara          MT is nothing like WoW
12:22 nerzhul        don't look at WoW
12:22 nerzhul        look at the modding part
12:22 nerzhul        don't be mind blocked
12:22 Shara          I am not "mind blocked"
12:22 nerzhul        look at the wow community possibilities, it's globally UI, we don't care about wow there
12:22 nerzhul        we care about the modding
12:23 Shara          CSM has not produced anything useful enough to justify the mess and division within the community that it has caused
12:23 ANAND          Sadly, WoW seems to be closed source. No point in looking at WoW then
12:23 nerzhul        enough to you
12:23 nerzhul        wow is closed source but modding API is free
12:23 nerzhul        and mod owners can suggest modifications to blizzard on their forums
12:23 Shara          ANAND: exactly.. kind of hate nerzhul using such things as examples... because they are not too applicable. not even similar kind of game
12:24 nerzhul        i don't see why adding UI things, customizing chat and handling events is not applicable to mt
12:24 nerzhul        we have UI, chat and events.
12:24 Calinou        ANAND: not willing to look at good ideas in proprietary software seems like a bad idea to me
12:24 Calinou        judge the idea, not the author
12:24 Shara          Calinou: willing to look, but I find WoW not a good example
12:25 ANAND          Calinou: I was wanting to look at how it was actually implemented
12:25 ANAND          the mod-sending, that is
12:25 nerzhul        WoW API is just Lua like MT
12:25 nerzhul        and triggers events like MT
12:25 Calinou        anyway, server-provided client-side code isn't exclusive to WoW :)
12:25 nerzhul        and you can request engine like MT.
12:25 Shara          In terms of UI, we are kind of stuck with the fun of formspecs, so there are some serious imits :)
12:25 Calinou        (same for client-provided client-side code, but it's rarer if you only include Turing-complete languages)
12:25 nerzhul        wow hasn't server provided mods
12:25 nerzhul        they are packaged with the games
12:25 nerzhul        the game versions*
12:26 Shara          What I want to see is people actually making mods for MT that justify CSM
12:26 nerzhul        it's why wow is the best example because they do the same things as us, yeah the gameplay isn't same, but the implementation is totally identical (outside of the game functionalities themselves)
12:27 nerzhul        Shara, when SSM modding api appears you told wow, why extend the game, and make it generic ?
12:27 Shara          nerzhul: maybe you should prove us wrong by making some really nice CSM mods then
12:27 nerzhul        Shara i'm not a modder i'm a coredev
12:27 nerzhul        i provide API
12:27 nerzhul        just be creative
12:27 nerzhul        also the forum has better examples than me
12:27 nerzhul        as some non blocked users take the CSM API and do something with it
12:28 Shara          The forum doesn't have much at all
12:28 nerzhul        because it's not really releases as 5.0.0 isn't done ,
12:28 nerzhul        ?
12:28 nerzhul        released*
12:28 Shara          Is it not in current stable?
12:28 nerzhul        the 0.4.17 API has less features than 5.0 if i remember
12:29 ANAND          Here's a valid use-case for SSCSM: #7557. It should've been client-side, ideally. Without SSCSM entering the scene anytime soon, I reckoned this could at least go to the server-side API. It might be a bit laggier than (SS)CSM, but at least mods could use the functionality...
12:29 ShadowBot      https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/7557 -- Expose player FOV to Lua API by ClobberXD
12:29 nerzhul        in fact 5.0.0 adds security only features on CSM, except the player privilege API , the inventory callbacks, the locale and the mod communication with server
12:30 nerzhul        (and between CSM clients)
12:30 nerzhul        https://dev.minetest.net/Changelog#0.4.16_.E2.86.92_5.0.0_.28Not_yet_released.29
12:30 ANAND          And btw, what are mod channels?
12:30 Shara          I give up anyway. Hopefully you prove me wrong and CSm gets huge and good use.
12:30 nerzhul        changelog stopping at 15 aug is very very use
12:30 nerzhul        ANAND: it permits CSM mods to talk to SSM mods or to other CSM users
12:31 Shara          EIther way - you've handled it really poorly. And stop blaming paramat for you not doing SSCSM
12:31 ANAND          Oh ok
12:31 nerzhul        imagine you trigger a CSM event: "receive chat message from chuck"
12:31 nerzhul        you can register a mod channel an push the event
12:31 nerzhul        if SSM mod or other CSM clients are registered in the channel, they will receive the event and can handle it to do something
12:31 nerzhul        you can serialize lua data to push on a such channel
12:32 ANAND          Cool
12:32 ANAND          Can this be extended to become the foundation for mod-sending?
12:32 nerzhul        it's a controversial MT usecase, but you can imagine you have oredetect mod enable, when you find diamond or gold it push the event on the mod channel, other users with same mod receive the event and notify the current user that diamond ore was found a x,y,z
12:32 nerzhul        no because it's just communication channels for data not code
12:33 nerzhul        CSM mod sending should either use media API or another API
12:33 nerzhul        because the problem is how to package a mod
12:33 nerzhul        it's not just a media list
12:34 nerzhul        in WOW you have also mod channels, if i have gatherer mod (which register all resources found, herbs, ore, fish...) and another user has it in the same channel both mods share their data and complete the each other to have a more compelte db
12:34 nerzhul        in pvp you have player position sharing with such mods
12:35 ANAND          Interesting possibilities
12:35 nerzhul        i also get a mod which register the loot chance on each mob and complete with other players permitting to have more accurate percents
12:35 nerzhul        because you have more stats :)
12:36 nerzhul        in SSM and CSM case it's the best way that a SSM mod and CSM mod users can use to share data
12:36 ANAND          This can be put to good use when combined with SSCSMs. But I assume mod channels isn't complete yet?
12:36 nerzhul        imagine weather API, SSM push a weather lua event and you client just do the draw (we don't have a such api yet)
12:36 nerzhul        mod channel is completei n master
12:37 ANAND          Oh nice
12:37 nerzhul        see https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/client_lua_api.txt#L780
12:38 nerzhul        https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/doc/mod_channels.png
12:38 nerzhul        you have both possibilities on the graph, CSM communication only or SSM & CSM mod communication
12:39 nerzhul        and you have examples in minimal + CSM experimental mod
12:40 ANAND          Oh I didn't know there was an example
12:40 nerzhul        when i write an API i push it to experimental or CSM preview depending on the scope
12:40 nerzhul        other coredev generally do this
12:40 nerzhul        we have an API test in experimental
12:41 nerzhul        minimal/experimental is the SSM part preview is CSM part, to be more clear :p
12:41 ANAND          Yes, I figured
12:42 nerzhul        it's really useful and provide real examples heh
12:49 ANAND          Would it be possible to package code as serialized text, along with metadata that the client can use to re-create the mod folder?
12:50 nerzhul        it's the idea but it's not as easy
12:50 nerzhul        but i got an idea about it
12:50 nerzhul        just no time to code it and it's a little bit sensible
12:50 nerzhul        because you mustn't do rogue things on client
12:50 ANAND          True
12:51 nerzhul        evade the sandbox, evade the FS, break FS, etc
13:29 nerzhul        interesting
13:29 nerzhul        another point to make MT far from MC :p
13:29 nerzhul        this is a good thing for MC except it's js :p
13:29 Fixer          another point to implement z-sorting
13:37 Fixer          and forget about minecraft
13:43 shivajiva      this time next year we will have z-sorting....isn't that how it goes Fixer
13:46 shivajiva      this time next year we will be happy...
13:46 shivajiva      this time next year we will be rich...
13:52 rubenwardy     Client-side scripting is aimed for client side prediction and audiovisual enhancements
13:52 rubenwardy     It wasn't intended for client provided mods
13:53 rubenwardy     Client side scripting could add proper prediction to mine carts, to make them follow the tracks better without lots of packet
13:53 rubenwardy     Or fancy canvas rendering in formspecs
13:53 rubenwardy     Where the data transfer is too high
13:53 rubenwardy     Fancy colored text and the like are not part of the original CSS plans
13:53 rubenwardy     And are a bastardisation
13:54 rubenwardy     Css should be about increasing the modding possibility of mods and games
13:55 * Krock        wonders why he can walk onto 1m high nodes without jumping
13:55 rubenwardy     Not about players hacking servers and customising their gameplay
13:55 * Krock        realizes that there's  autojump = true in his config
13:55 rubenwardy     Players shouldn't decide game play, the server owner should
13:55 rubenwardy     Colored names and such features should be in the engine
13:56 rubenwardy     And spscs or whatever not happening isn't paramat's fault
14:04 shivajiva      rubenwardy: thanks for that clarity, it's always good to understand what things are supposed to be for reference
15:56 nerzhul        rubenwardy i let you port all that in 5.1 :D
15:56 nerzhul        as i said color chat is already in engine
15:56 nerzhul        it use all engine API
15:56 nerzhul        but the custom itself is done by mod
16:13 shivajiva      I really don't understand why you are deriving pleasure from this situation nerzhul, it's not amusing me in the slightest. The intimation is you will sit back and watch ruben port it instead of helping or did I misunderstand?
16:15 nerzhul        where did you see i take pleasure ?
16:16 nerzhul        i lost my time to battle for this feature
16:16 shivajiva      ‎[15:56:19] ‎<‎nerzhul‎>‎ rubenwardy i let you port all that in 5.1 :D
16:16 shivajiva      seems like a piss take to me
16:16 nerzhul        he defined the roadmap it seems :D
16:17 rubenwardy     !dev Client_side_scripting
16:17 MinetestBot    No such page.
16:17 rubenwardy     !dev client-side_scripting
16:17 MinetestBot    No such page.
16:17 rubenwardy     Whatever
16:18 rubenwardy     The concept of CSS was already planned and decided by hmmmm, c55, and various other devs
16:18 nerzhul        then go
16:18 rubenwardy     When I supported CSM, that's what I thought you were working on
16:18 nerzhul        why in 8 months of afk nobody started this ? i'm returning back to dev and except complain like 8 month ago i don't see anything new
16:19 nerzhul        red-001 and me have coded all the CSM basis, now add the new api you need
16:19 nerzhul        you don't need SSCSM to make CSM talk to irrlicht
16:20 shivajiva      I was waiting for you to return and provide some understanding as to where this is going, so it seems timely to me
16:21 nerzhul        and if i don't return what happend to the project ?
16:23 shivajiva      after some time it would be decided you had abandoned your post and the devs would make moves to factor if it is worth pursuing imo
16:23 nerzhul        hundreds hour of develop abandonned because nobody understand the code ?
16:23 nerzhul        we are 10 core dev
16:23 nerzhul        CSM is coded in same API way as SSM
16:23 nerzhul        if there is a problem it seems nobody understand mt engine
16:23 Krock          Freezer in technic is incoming. Will merge https://github.com/minetest-mods/technic/pull/457 in 10 minutes
16:24 Krock          ^ nore, perhaps you're interested in having a quick look into this
16:26 shivajiva      I don't have a problem admitting I don't understand the mt engine but your stance is we are idiots for not understanding, that is bound to rub the wrong way isn't it
16:36 Krock          merging...
16:51 nerzhul        no i never said that
16:51 nerzhul        what i like in MT community: extremism, no middle
16:51 Shara          Has seemed the implication multiple times to me.
16:57 nerzhul        there is no implication in what i say it's relatively clear :)
16:59 Krock          well, sometimes it might sound different than what you actually mean simply on how the sentences are formulated
16:59 Shara          ^
17:00 Krock          it's hard to get around this, especially when parties with non-native English speakers are involved
17:01 Shara          The jumps between blaming paramat and then saying SSCSM isn't needed anyway aren't helping.
17:01 nerzhul        oh it's just a fact, look at GH :)
17:01 nerzhul        Krock i'm non native too heh :p
17:02 Krock          nerzhul: ikr, that's mainly why I mentioned it
17:03 Krock          To my part: SSCSM IS needed to complete the CSM API we've got now. However, server leaks/exploits will remain even if the client modding is entirely controlled by the server. Nobody can control the sanity of clients
17:04 Shara          Krock: sure, but it's about a lot more than exploits. I think every serious server owner realises some things cannot be prevented
17:05 Krock          throwing the CSM part we've got right now out of the window is nonsense and wasted dev time. Restrictions are however fine, allowing to make use of the feature later on when it's mature enough
17:05 Shara          I'd like to see it finished rather than thrown out.
17:05 Krock          same
17:05 Shara          But there seems no intention to finish it, and what we currently have isn't good.
17:29 Krock          just to execute Lua code locally would be quite easy. add the files to the server media, download from client, collect *.lua files in a list, execute the lua files. The issue is that whole mods have to be sent (multiple files, dependency handling perhaps too)
17:30 Krock          former issue could be done by catching all "dofile" or "loadfile" calls to rewrite the actual file path
17:31 Krock          mmh.. could write a POC somewhen to check whether this would actually work
17:31 Krock          also a safe Lua environment would be needed to not crash the client on CSM error
17:41 nerzhul        Krock it's already the case
17:41 nerzhul        it just disconnect client from server currently
17:42 nerzhul        Shara we always want finished product, but MT SSM was never finished, you see features currently while it was released in 0.4.0
17:42 nerzhul        Krock your case works for single file mod
17:42 nerzhul        but i don't want just single file mod
17:43 Shara          nerzhul:  I'm awar eof changes for 5.0 as well. I know work has been done.
17:44 Shara          It's coming releases I worry about
17:46 Krock          nerzhul: thus it would be needed to overwrite "dofile" and "loadfile" in order to load more mod files (which are inside the media directory)
17:46 Krock          however, that will result in strange error tracebacks
17:47 Krock          and mod storage? uhm.. maybe it's wrong to load them into media
18:11 nerzhul        Krock exactly it's why i don't used the media cache for that
18:11 nerzhul        it's not adapted to the SSCSM
18:11 nerzhul        else it would be finished since ages :p
18:13 Krock          well so, let's use ./cache/sscsm/<modname>
18:18 nerzhul        we push a filepath in the mediacache ? i can't remember, and you need to handle subfolder etc :)
18:24 Krock          just one depth since the required media is still sent as usual
18:24 Krock          and mod data is saved somewhere else anyway
18:59 nerzhul        then we can do it like this adding file path and a limitation to have all lua file in the same folder
19:00 nerzhul        not sure everything works as intended, i don't remember how it's proessed client side
19:00 nerzhul        but it's a breaking release
19:00 nerzhul        and also how are them registered to server media list ?
19:10 Krock          fetch it like regular media, then filter them out locally client-side to save them in the appropriate place
19:33 rubenwardy     I'm still in favour of installing from cdb instead
19:34 Krock          why not both?
19:36 rubenwardy     Because security
19:37 rubenwardy     It's the easiest way to verify that "carts" was written by "Krock" and now "TotallySafeUser"
19:37 rubenwardy     *not
19:38 rubenwardy     And gives you license verification for free
19:38 rubenwardy     For development, you can just provide the mod directly
19:39 Krock          hmm.. so you don't want SSCSMs or did we switch the topic at some point?
19:39 rubenwardy     Actually, the issue with this is preventing user modifications so it's not an end all
19:43 rubenwardy     I think sscsm is a terrible idea for security, given our lack of competent developers and history of bugs
19:43 rubenwardy     I'd be more supportive if you could cryptographically sign mods with sscsm, so you know the author
19:51 Krock          mhm yes
20:06 tenplus1       hi folks :)
20:06 tenplus1       hi Krock:
20:06 Fixer          "Rapunzel is pregnant" interesting
20:06 tenplus1       hey fixer :P
20:06 tumeninodes    o/
20:07 tenplus1       o/ tumeni
20:07 Fixer          hihih
20:07 tenplus1       how's all tonight ?
20:07 tumeninodes    ... complacent
20:07 tenplus1       is that good or bad ?
20:07 tumeninodes    can go either way :)
20:08 tenplus1       lolol
20:08 tumeninodes    meanwhile, I'm working on a self-titled mod, to do something with the plethora of textures I've had laying around... trying to clean up a bit
20:09 tenplus1       ooh, look forward to seeing it when done :P
20:11 tumeninodes    this is just the very edge of a bottomless void https://imgur.com/a/hSAfWxO
20:11 tumeninodes    several hundred to go
20:12 tenplus1       VanessaE: added that addition to vines mod :)
20:12 tumeninodes    that way, people can pick n choose. It will possibly be split up over several diff folders
20:13 tenplus1       looks interesting :))
20:13 tenplus1       Mobs Redo API updated, fixed nil entity check
20:13 tumeninodes    well..., it will clean out some much needed HD space
20:13 tenplus1       get it all on git :PP
20:14 tumeninodes    so you've been busy
20:14 tenplus1       few mod additions, bug fixes, moved wine's blue agave to nodetimers instead of abm
20:15 Krock          hi tenplus1
20:15 tenplus1       o///
20:16 tumeninodes    nice. there should be as much moved away from abm as possible across the MT/MTG universe
20:16 tenplus1       slow but sure :)
20:16 tenplus1       although it replaces the abm's with lbm's to start all those nodetimers :D but those rune once only
20:17 tumeninodes    I'm not one to talk though
20:18 tenplus1       was gonna do the same for hoppers, but I have 1 abm running all 3 hoppers and item suction :D
20:21 * tumeninodes  has still never even used a hopper
20:22 Jordach        great for putting my recently harvested hops itno
20:22 tenplus1       lol, we need some sort of command block to identify items sucked into a hopper so it can be used for adventure maps... I think basic_machines has such a thing
20:22 tenplus1       hi Jordach :P
20:22 shivajiva      Hi tenplus1:P
20:23 tenplus1       hey shiva, how's you ?
20:23 shivajiva      not bad thanks :)
20:23 tenplus1       le kewl :)
20:23 shivajiva      where you been Krock misses you ;)
20:24 Jordach        i have done nothing but smash for three days
20:24 tenplus1       doing rl stuff :) and trying to figure out why server keeps restarting
20:24 shivajiva      he keeps saying hi to you but you aint here
20:24 Jordach        tenplus1, is it JIT running out of memory
20:24 Jordach        (because it certainly sounds like it)
20:24 tenplus1       nah, something causing actual server to reset
20:24 tenplus1       *server = physical machine
20:24 Jordach        uh
20:25 tenplus1       did mobo testing, drive testing, psu testing,memory testing
20:25 rud0lf         cleaning lady unplugging server to plug vacuum cleaner in?
20:25 tenplus1       checking ups and will clear logs and check them if it happens again
20:25 tenplus1       lol, hope not
20:25 Jordach        rip
20:25 tumeninodes    hahaha, someone unplugging the server to use a hair dryer or something would be classic
20:26 tenplus1       shinji owns server so hopeit's not someone who lives there doing just that
20:26 Jordach        why are you putting it in the bathroom then :thinking:
20:26 tumeninodes    xD
20:26 tumeninodes    better question... why not?
20:26 tenplus1       just did modupdate tho so we;re running newer apis
20:28 tumeninodes    time to check those energy saver settings and the power unit
20:28 tenplus1       those are set to turn off monitor only, not system... and UPS only shuts everything down when it's at 5% power
20:29 tenplus1       we'll clear logs and check 'em if it happens again, should give some insight
20:29 tumeninodes    I had a unit once kept doing weird things, to find out there was a spider causing it all
20:29 tenplus1       better not be... I'll fly over there and stomp on it myself if it is
20:29 rud0lf         tumeninodes: it tried to access web?
20:29 tumeninodes    haaaaaaahahaha
20:29 tenplus1       hi rud0lf
20:30 rud0lf         hi tenplus1
20:30 shivajiva      bios updates to mitigate Intel cpu flaws applied?
20:30 tumeninodes    rud0lf with your jokes so bright
20:30 tenplus1       it's an AMD mobo and CPU :)
20:30 rud0lf         can't tell if a sarcasm or not
20:30 tumeninodes    an applaus
20:30 rud0lf         ah
20:31 tumeninodes    seasonal reference
20:31 tumeninodes    it was a brilliant joke
20:31 tenplus1       also applied the SPI=off switch to stop the meltdown/spectre fixses slowing down my machines :)
20:31 * Jordach      releases a meltdown mod for MT
20:31 Jordach        as a joke and experiment
20:31 tumeninodes    saweet
20:32 shivajiva      don't eat saws man
20:32 tumeninodes    and just a touch of sadism
20:33 tumeninodes    :P
20:33 shivajiva      heh tumeninodes has a sadistic touch
20:34 tumeninodes    just a  little
20:34 tenplus1       :P
20:36 * tumeninodes  needs to go look at all my food, to decide there is nothing to eat, so I can order out
20:36 Jordach        i got pringles and sour cream dip
20:37 * tenplus1     steals one
20:37 * tumeninodes  graps a pringle and heads to the cupboards
20:42 Jordach        recently i've gotten awesome at decoding the errors from gcc++
20:42 Calinou        Clang is known for its more informative error messages, try it out
20:43 tenplus1       yay... we got errors for NaN out of range for entities in 5.0 ???
20:45 Jordach        but that means setting up clang
20:52 tenplus1       hi gael
20:52 Gael-de-Sailly Hi 11 :)
20:52 tenplus1       o//
20:54 tenplus1       hi fussel
21:07 IhrFussel      I wanna straight out say that servers which make you obtain certain items to create a permanent account are utterly stupid
21:07 IhrFussel      And hi tenplus1
21:08 tenplus1       wont that stop fake players massing and empty accounts ?
21:08 IhrFussel      It may be good for the server owner but not for lots of players who simply cannot find those items
21:09 tenplus1       maybe adding a player chest or free store toget the item ??
21:09 IhrFussel      And then after an hour or so of searching you lose connections -> SOL
21:10 IhrFussel      If a server uses such a system it should be an item that can be easily obtained, but I dislike such "need to have something to stay" really
21:11 tenplus1       suppose it stops bot players and fake players gathering on server, but yeah, has to be made a lot easier
21:11 IhrFussel      If the server uses a hunger mod it adds a time limit unless you find some food
21:12 IhrFussel      Well you could of course go all the way back to where you were before starving but that is just tedious
21:13 IhrFussel      I don't believe that there are actual "bot players" ... that is just server owners who don't know better who call them that
21:13 tenplus1       public farms could make items you need to stay... so long as the other players replant
21:14 IhrFussel      The server I tried had no public farm...or it was hidden which is no good idea
21:14 tenplus1       bah!
21:14 tenplus1       how about a player chest that gives basic items once only
21:14 tenplus1       when they open chest and obtain items they become permanent players
21:14 tenplus1       that could be easily done
21:15 tumeninodes    tbh, if a player cannot be bothered to put in the effort to obtain said items, is prob not a player one would desire on their server
21:15 tenplus1       very true
21:15 tumeninodes    usually it is the ones who don;t like to put any effort in, are the ones who will eventually cause problems because that is how they have fun
21:16 tenplus1       the one's who beg for items and complain theyh died :PPP
21:16 IhrFussel      No, in this case it was a certain ore that could be found easily but if you're not lucky it will be too late
21:16 tumeninodes    then set them to regenerate
21:16 tumeninodes    every now and then
21:16 tumeninodes    then it will never be "too late"
21:17 tumeninodes    use the same code (or similar) that apples use now
21:17 IhrFussel      It's not my server
21:17 tumeninodes    then why are you worried about it ? :P
21:17 tenplus1       lol
21:18 IhrFussel      Cause I voice my opinion without bashing the server cause I don't mention the name
21:18 tenplus1       hi clavi
21:18 IhrFussel      It was the first server I visited that had such a system and I just think it is awful and there are better ways surely
21:19 tumeninodes    which is why you eventually opened your own... Everyone has their own preferences. While you may not like their setup, they do, and they may not like yours... such is life
21:19 tenplus1       implementation is usually rough, takes a little time to get things working well :D
21:20 tumeninodes    the important bit..., it to have those options available, which people can use to set things up the way they like
21:20 tumeninodes    it>is
21:21 IhrFussel      tumeninodes, a "fair" survival server (most of you know I'm all for fairness here haha) would help you on your first steps instead of requiring something from you before you even considered a "real player"
21:21 tumeninodes    but that is all up to personal taste and opinions
21:21 tenplus1       some signs posted at spawn you have to read to figure out how to be perma player... e.g.  "go find button on red path and push"... blah!
21:22 tenplus1       or... "dig down 200 blocks and pray you sdont hit lava"
21:22 IhrFussel      A server should at least give you the option to get some help ... options are almost never a bad thing
21:22 tenplus1       ooh just read logs, CSM seems to be a tough issue...
21:22 tumeninodes    to state that the way someone else prefers to be set up as "stupid" is quite shallow
21:22 tenplus1       are we anywhere near a switch to disable completely on servers ????
21:23 tumeninodes    CSM has been a tough issue since inception :P
21:23 tenplus1       very true, me no likey... if anyone uses it on Xanadu we ban now
21:24 tumeninodes    it's certainly not an overnight feature to implement or get right
21:24 IhrFussel      No it is my opinion and it should be obvious that I meant it as opinion...don't require people to always add "in my opinion" at the beginning oof their opinions
21:24 tenplus1       I want an OFF switch though to disable completely
21:24 IhrFussel      of*
21:25 tumeninodes    I know it's your opinion... but sometimes you come off as putting others down for their opinions
21:25 * tenplus1     wants more donut flavours in-game... just my opinion :)
21:25 IhrFussel      Nah, also I don't insult or bash a person, it's just a type of gameplay that I dislike in this case
21:26 tumeninodes    right, which is why you provide end users your own version... which is great
21:26 * tumeninodes  really like donuts
21:27 tenplus1       has normal sugar donut, choccy donut and strawberry so far in farming redo... may add grape :)
21:27 * tenplus1     likes jelly
21:27 tumeninodes    needs apple-cider donuts
21:27 paramat        yes in 5.0.0 a server can force clients to not load client-provided CSM
21:27 tenplus1       ones that reverse player controls and has you staggering around
21:27 tumeninodes    seeing as we have apples
21:27 tenplus1       paramat: thank GOD for that...
21:28 tenplus1       wine mod has apple cider :PP yum
21:28 IhrFussel      Which can be easily reverted in the source by simply changing a c++ flag AFAIK
21:28 Shara          Hi tenplus1. Couldn't echo those thoughts more
21:28 tenplus1       hi shara, how be you ?
21:28 paramat        it can be hacked around easily but, hacking can do anything
21:28 shivajiva      IhrFussel: you have stated you are a better server owner than the rest of us because you are somehow more reasonable, that will take a while to forget xD
21:28 Shara          I be sleepy
21:28 tenplus1       me too, off to bed shortly
21:28 tumeninodes    everytie someone plugs a hacking hole... another hole pops up
21:28 tumeninodes    m
21:29 Shara          Spare a doughnut before you go?
21:29 tenplus1       how about we disable CSM entirely and only have SSM
21:29 IhrFussel      I didn't talk about being a better server owner now, but to be fair is an important thing that not every server owner seems to agree with which IS definitely a shame
21:29 * tenplus1     shares custard filled donut with carrot sprinkles
21:29 paramat        eheh ... see my PR
21:29 tumeninodes    ssshhhhhh
21:29 * Shara        keeps mouth shut and goes back to some other things :)
21:30 tenplus1       lol
21:30 Shara          Actually... shut apart from doughnut noms :)
21:30 Shara          It must open to insert food :)
21:30 tenplus1       we had player on Xanadu with rainbow text, gave everyone a headache, asked to remove, they liked it, banned!
21:30 IhrFussel      By "fair" I mean a lot of things... starting with "punish people for things that were never disclosed as forbidden to them" and maybe ends at "banning people for fun"
21:30 tumeninodes    best hing to have available in mettings where people can share their thoughts.... noms
21:31 shivajiva      if you look at the reactions you got it should seem clear that that was how it was taken unfortunately
21:31 tenplus1       oh yes,food must be available in meetings
21:31 Shara          CSM should never have been allowed to affect other player's experience on the server.
21:31 tenplus1       and the length of time it took to bullet proof mods so they couldnt gain access with csm... that was annoying
21:31 IhrFussel      shivajiva, it is not my fault when people misunderstand me...then they can ask me again for more details
21:32 shivajiva      so you gained the controversial tag :)
21:32 tenplus1       ooh, you got a controversial award... congrats!
21:32 * tumeninodes  had "controversial" stamped on his head at birth
21:32 tenplus1       lol
21:32 IhrFussel      Controversial for not applying the "im god of my server" attitude..I'm honored
21:33 * tenplus1     got the sexiest man in minetest award... was honored
21:33 tumeninodes    but, if you have your own server, and provide end users with what you feel is a better and more fair experience..., then why worry about what others are doing? seems quite unproductive
21:34 Shara          I spent some time today trying to get a player NOT to call me god.
21:34 tumeninodes    wait... what??? 0_o
21:34 Jordach        paramat, almost done re-porting my set_sky stuff
21:34 shivajiva      see you have started that again and nobody here really thinks that, you confuse 'I pay for this so I run it my way' for god complex for all the server owners I see here
21:34 tenplus1       lol, have you met shinji :)
21:34 tenplus1       ehehehe
21:34 shivajiva      not here LOL
21:34 Jordach        i mean, i prefer, just dont break the server OS and you're fine
21:35 tumeninodes    ^
21:35 tenplus1       and on that note I sleep now, gotta recharge mah batteries
21:35 tenplus1       nite all o///////
21:35 shivajiva      nite
21:35 Fixer          \\\\\\\\\o
21:35 tumeninodes    nites
21:35 shivajiva      that was a slow exit for tenplus, he's out of practice xD
21:35 tumeninodes    I have to check on my foods bfore they burn
21:35 tumeninodes    haha
21:37 IhrFussel      shivajiva, the "god complex" is when you treat players the way you want no matter how reasonable it is, you just do it cause you think you are right and the bad player is wrong
21:38 IhrFussel      That is exactly what god compelx is
21:38 IhrFussel      complex*
21:38 shivajiva      and nobody here that runs a server behaves in that way unless you can show me I'm wrong?
21:39 paramat        Fixer mind your language please
21:39 IhrFussel      I'm not such an asshole that I need to call out servers ... I have examples of it being real on some servers (not yours, not Shara's btw)
21:41 IhrFussel      But that wasn't even the topic now... I simply voiced my personal opinion about some type of gameplay that I think is really bad
21:41 tumeninodes    but servers like that, good end users do not stay with anyway... they move onto others, which are better and more fair. SOme end users like the abuse too though
21:42 IhrFussel      The probem is often not the server owner themselves... but the staff they trust blindly
21:42 IhrFussel      problem*
21:42 Fixer          hah, stuff can be sooo bad
21:42 tumeninodes    yeh, I've seen that happen... but it is usually among younger people
21:43 Fixer          also, teens hosting servers is often path to disaster
21:43 tumeninodes    ^
21:43 shivajiva      well if we are talking about servers run by people that have yet to learn proper people skills we must be talking about young people, the established servers are run by more mature individuals
21:43 tumeninodes    exactly
21:43 shivajiva      ones that realise it's 50 shades of grey not black and white
21:43 tumeninodes    and those are the ones which last and run higher in grading
21:44 Fixer          i know one teenager server owner, who had teenager admin who destroyed server map, because drama and g-d damn that ---- is annoying, can you ----- stop this discord gossip and just play?
21:44 IhrFussel      The server I played on earlier...gave someone the 'kick' and 'ban' priv because they were active...just cause they were active even though they are probably very young and barely know English (the server is English-centric)
21:44 Jordach        lmfao
21:45 Jordach        this is why only one person has all the privs, and fly and fast can be earned through regular gameplay
21:45 Fixer          IhrFussel: typical carelessly teenager-run server
21:45 * Shara        sighs,
21:45 tumeninodes    open server... don't have time to run it... ban and all privs to first come first serve
21:45 Shara          And I suppose you know every interaction they had with that player ever to judge the decision?
21:45 IhrFussel      Not run by a teenager... I guess I will have to disclose the server name then...it's "Survival X"
21:45 shivajiva      sounds like they are desperate to have some mod presence rather than full blown anarchy
21:46 IhrFussel      The TOP server right now
21:46 Fixer          when the server has a discord, I turn suspicious
21:46 tumeninodes    like it was a real arm twister for you to say the name xD
21:47 tumeninodes    yeh Discord seems a dead giveaway
21:47 IhrFussel      I usually don't do that cause I think maybe my opinion could influence a few people
21:47 Fixer          it is gossip place
21:47 Fixer          full of drama
21:47 tumeninodes    although... Jordach had Discord...
21:47 Fixer          for example
21:48 tumeninodes    unfortunately teens today... their whole life they are exposed to drama... blame the kardashains and poor parenting
21:48 Fixer          server I play had discord, and there was constant bitchy-drama with those annoying teens but I was not affected with it at all, apart from map destroying, whining in chat etc %))
21:48 * tumeninodes  may open a server just to torture kids muahahahahahaha
21:49 IhrFussel      Well I think it is fair to say that more than 50% of the MT userbase are kids... some younger than we want to believe ... I had one who said they are 6 ... not sure if it's true but imagine it were)
21:49 tumeninodes    and discord with txt turned off can only use emojis
21:49 shivajiva      stating facts as you perceive them isn't a problem IhrFussel as long as you accept you don't have the whole picture to fully judge what seems to be misguided actions
21:49 Fixer          i don't have discord, but I see how negatively it can affect the server, suddenly there is gossip, drama, ragequits, server shutdowns, owner banning his admins etc
21:50 Shara          When a server is "bad" it's usually obvious.
21:50 Fixer          best part is teenage owner hires teenage "IT-interested" person who backdoors the server or destroys it, --- damned it
21:50 Shara          Yet players still show up.
21:50 Shara          Because there's a load of them that love this drama
21:50 shivajiva      feed off the drama
21:51 IhrFussel      I'm not saying the server is bad... I was there and to me it looks like a generic survival server with rather few mods and basic layout/features ... if people look for exactly that it's fine
21:51 Fixer          it feels like amount of cancer increases proportionally to amount of communication channels, if you have IRC+discord, you have 3x as much of cancer
21:51 Jordach        at that point radiotherapy is needed
21:51 Jordach        :P
21:51 shivajiva      lol
21:51 Shara          Fixer: lack of moderation is usually the biggest issue there
21:52 IhrFussel      I was just expecting something special when I joined ... and I was kinda disappointed
21:52 Shara          I saw a few servers adding discord bots to the IRC channel, but who is moderating there when the admin si away?
21:52 Shara          is*
21:52 Fixer          there are also some players that are commited griefers on overclocking levels
21:52 Jordach        only issue with too much moderation, see VE's servers
21:53 Jordach        servers are pretty much dead or have 1-2 players
21:53 Shara          Even if I had op in the IRC channel, would owner be okay wiht me banning the bot if all else fails? It gets harder to manage..
21:53 Fixer          probably dead because most players are mobile and they can't handle such memory fat servers
21:53 Shara          Jordach: RC is pretty healthy with a strong moderator team
21:53 Jordach        hands off approach tho
21:54 Jordach        VE's might as well be handled with JCBa
21:54 Jordach        s/a/b/g
21:54 IhrFussel      And about the staff: I read it in the forum ... a few players just had to say "yes he is good staff" and he got approved... Not the best method to decide on staff
21:54 Fixer          also, some players like to set up their bots on server IRC/discord and they do stuff like posting that 500kilobyte 4chan story or smth
21:55 tumeninodes    the world needs more real parks... less servers... is the real problem
21:55 Fixer          we have more servers than people
21:55 Fixer          players want vibrant community, like hometown or smth
21:55 tumeninodes    kids need to get back to bullying and beating up on others in real life, not virtually
21:55 Jordach        ^
21:55 Jordach        meatspace is important, yo
21:55 Fixer          it is just not interesting to play on empty server, you want activity going on
21:56 tumeninodes    haha
21:56 Shara          Heh
21:56 shivajiva      it's a fact that the kids like personalities and show up expecting to see certain moderators at certain times, this is exploited by the servers where possible to maintain a good player base and a friendly atmosphere when the price is manageable. It's a good tactic if you know how people work
21:56 Shara          Fixer: problem is everyone wants their own server to be the boss or do it their own way
21:56 Jordach        i liked krays server for that reason
21:56 Jordach        griefing was solved by griefing
21:56 tumeninodes    eye for an eye?
21:57 Jordach        more like dont step on me
21:57 shivajiva      gang warfare lol
21:58 tumeninodes    ooooh just had an idea for a "pants" mod... so players can go around pulling down other players pants to embarrass them xD
21:58 Jordach        ironically, it does actually work on 2b2t
21:58 paramat        good grief reading logs from this channel about CSM ...
21:58 Jordach        https://2b2t.miraheze.org/wiki/Timeline
21:58 tumeninodes    beerholder has the idea... open server... everyone is on their own...
21:58 tumeninodes    complete anarchy
21:59 shivajiva      paramat: It was made clear trying to blame you doesn't mean shit
21:59 Shara          ^
22:00 tumeninodes    I only blame paramat for no rivers on MGflat :P
22:00 tumeninodes    actually, everyone who would oppose it so... not him
22:00 Jordach        and we blame server admins for trying to enforce their views :^)
22:00 Fixer          Jordach: nah, I've played on his other, less griefed one
22:00 Jordach        i didn't mean a server admin here :^)
22:00 shivajiva      consensus enforces views
22:01 Fixer          Jordach: 2b is shit these days, goto -iam or 9b
22:01 Fixer          cons-iam chat is amazing
22:01 Fixer          like actual people
22:01 tumeninodes    given the lack of real life situations today, it is good to punish kids for bad behavior, else we have a future society of absolute assholes
22:02 Fixer          and some 4chan pastas
22:02 Fixer          do we have /ignore in minetest?
22:02 shivajiva      trumpets
22:02 shivajiva      as I like to call them
22:02 IhrFussel      BTW: The "players choose their server" is not 100% true these days...there are several apps on the app store which restrict servers client side ... you have to collect COINS to unlock FREE servers by watching ads or paying money
22:03 tumeninodes    well..., that is a whole other topic right there
22:03 tumeninodes    and a problem for the entire project
22:03 Fixer          if only LazyJ updated his server to 0.4.17......
22:03 IhrFussel      Yes but I wanted to mention it ... players can be theoretically "locked" on a server they don't like until they got enough "coins"
22:04 Fixer          o_O
22:04 tumeninodes    people making $ no matter how little, while placing a bad aura over the entire project is a serious problem
22:04 paramat        it looks like nrz's f*cked up attitude was addressed, thanks
22:05 IhrFussel      Another problem with many apps: They only list the first few top servers and NOT the whole list which is why most servers are always dead
22:05 paramat        confirms my suspicions
22:05 Shara          paramat: you are very welcome. It's good if we can healthy discussion about CSM, but trying to blame someone like that isn't okay
22:05 tumeninodes    0_0 did paramat just swear?????
22:05 tumeninodes    (gasp) Sssssssquidward!
22:05 paramat        the development of CSM was a complete disaster and nrz deluded us
22:05 Fixer          server owners had to mention to player they play MINETEST, not some ad-dystopian-parasite app
22:06 paramat        heh almost swore
22:06 tumeninodes    haha
22:06 nerzhul        paramat are you serious
22:06 Fixer          i like csm in minecraft, stuff like sorting inventory, mapping, hud, that can be useful for minetest for sure
22:06 IhrFussel      Fixer, I did that a few months ago... but most people either don't care or don't read ... it was useless so I removed it again from the join message
22:06 Fixer          chat improvements
22:06 tumeninodes    oh boy... duck n cover
22:07 nerzhul        disaster in what ?
22:07 Jordach        ruining minetest game?
22:07 nerzhul        because you didn't provide any feature on it ?
22:07 Fixer          IhrFussel: just add a big MINETEST word in the sky with a smaller sign with details
22:07 tumeninodes    this would so be a perfect moment to do a -hub  maint shutdown
22:08 tumeninodes    where's Fuchs? :P
22:08 nerzhul        Shara, where is healthy discussion when the only discussion from paramat is remove it
22:08 paramat        if you don't support SSCSM i don't trust you to code it, leave it to someone else
22:08 Jordach        not giving a Fuch, clearly, tumeninodes
22:08 IhrFussel      Fixer, it gets really bad when players blame YOU (the server owner) for V.I.P requirements or displaying ads
22:08 nerzhul        i support SSCSM idea but i don't have time to code it
22:08 tumeninodes    haha
22:09 nerzhul        i said that 8 month said and ? nothing
22:09 paramat        i am not tryng to remove it obviously, i could try to, it's tempting, but i'm compromising
22:09 nerzhul        nothing get time to code it
22:09 Fixer          IhrFussel: make new players read the rules, that also address those problems with fake VIP and just use official client
22:09 nerzhul        sorry but, one pr which remove all he code
22:09 nerzhul        one pr which disable the code
22:09 nerzhul        one pr which drop the code again
22:09 nerzhul        but no
22:10 paramat        you don't suppotr SSCSM clearly from what you've written. you got CPCSM then walked away
22:10 nerzhul        i don't say i don't support it
22:10 nerzhul        stop that shit
22:10 nerzhul        i say i don't see why we need this NOW
22:10 nerzhul        NOW for the 5.0.0 release which should happen earlier this year in july !
22:11 paramat        read the logs
22:11 nerzhul        i know what i said
22:11 Jordach        there's probably 600 things more important than ramming your PR through everything
22:11 nerzhul        and it's what i just said now
22:11 paramat        you can't be trusted with CSM clearly, someone else can do it
22:11 nerzhul        i don't know why i should try to release MT in fast
22:11 nerzhul        fact*7
22:12 nerzhul        because nobody wants to release it
22:12 nerzhul        if you are the mt life saver go ahead
22:12 * Shara        sighs a few more sighs
22:12 shivajiva      I think you have too realise that paramats efforts are supported by a lot of server owners and that is why he's persistently trying to compromise for us, it's not like he stands alone in that respect
22:12 Jordach        except those servers are made possible by mods
22:12 Jordach        admins just do the hard bit of making sure people aren't stupid
22:13 nerzhul        there is a difference between compromise and not release MT since  6 month because there is only compromise and no real solutions
22:13 tumeninodes    personally, I am glad 5.0.0 is taking so long to release... such a significant release should not be rushed to meet end users whines or expectations as to when
22:14 Fixer          maybe there needs to be 0.4.18 again
22:14 nerzhul        tumeninodes a devel program which should be released 6 month ago but nobody take the ownership is not in a good health, sorry
22:14 shivajiva      if paramat hadn't sorted the sneak in the way he did a lot of people would have walked away, he was the only person willing to compromise and did so quickly for the community as a whole
22:15 Jordach        sneak was basically a house of cards waiting to fall over
22:15 nerzhul        and if i didn't rewrote some core engine non visible parts for server owners MT code should have been as bad as in 2015 in terms of performance with ~30% less performance
22:15 tumeninodes    just keep up with minor fix releases to keep the project in the active status and keep end user intrerest... 5.0.0 is not the same as other prior releases ever
22:15 Jordach        tumeninodes, considering some servers and games depend on the API therein, hmm
22:15 Fixer          nerzhul: no need to rush with release tbh, just do 0.4.18
22:15 nerzhul        one problem server owner miss is the voxel game mode is finished
22:16 nerzhul        Fixer nothing to backport
22:16 Fixer          also, everyone is focused on engine, god damn, please think of the chil-. minetest game! :D
22:16 nerzhul        and to be honest again a backport risky bugfix (if needed), whereas 2 times we said no and now we said yes ?
22:16 nerzhul        i think mtg also requires a release, you are right
22:16 nerzhul        it's 0.4.17
22:16 nerzhul        or 0.4.16 code no ?
22:17 nerzhul        the game doesn't evolve too
22:17 Shara          nerzhul: we know you did a lot of good things, and no one has said otherwise, but CSM has left many people angry
22:17 Jordach        CSM was meant to be done in smaller parts
22:17 nerzhul        i would said hungry
22:17 Jordach        not just a oversized PR
22:17 Fixer          it feels like developers can creampie some comp breaking code into the engine before 5.0
22:17 nerzhul        we didn't break the lua part :)
22:17 nerzhul        except if i miss something during my vacation
22:17 tumeninodes    afk
22:17 shivajiva      I'm 100% sure everybody appreciated that nerzhul, who wouldn't appreciate the game running faster.
22:18 nerzhul        one thing i'm sure, a game active without release is considered dead by the community
22:18 nerzhul        because client wants more features too
22:19 nerzhul        and as i said, release 5.0.0 and push SSCSM in the 5.1 roadmap let's go guys
22:19 Jordach        remember, catering to whiners created Minetest Gma
22:19 xerox123       hello all
22:19 Jordach        Game
22:19 nerzhul        Jordach oO ?
22:19 nerzhul        mtg was a drama ?
22:20 shivajiva      this is minetest, everything is a drama
22:20 Fixer          I waited 6 years for carts drama
22:20 Shara          Sneak sneak sneak!! (sorry :P)
22:20 Jordach        even minecraft forge devs faster than MT
22:21 nerzhul        Jordach and release often
22:21 nerzhul        our devel mod has problems
22:21 nerzhul        5.0.0 was breaing right
22:21 Fixer          I still remember 2011 or smth, standing on a big road along the shore, elevated, it had tracks going far, little I know it will need 6 years or so to have official carts in game
22:21 nerzhul        then take 1 year to release, not 19 months :(
22:21 Jordach        nerzhul, i've just gone and exposed most of the sky stuff to Lua, including some fancies
22:21 Fixer          i was so excited in 2011, oh boy, those nice tracks :D
22:21 Fixer          and in 2017 or when you merged carts, that was amazing
22:21 nerzhul        Fixed the problem is we are too genereic
22:21 Fixer          fuckinb finally
22:22 nerzhul        some objects needs less genericity than the SAO
22:22 Fixer          To see carts in Minetest Game and to die
22:23 IhrFussel      You didn't think enough of server owners when you implemented CSM... you didn't properly calculate risks of 'ore_detect', 'colored chat SERVER SIDE' and more
22:23 Shara          I still remember being told players should have the right to do as they like, and CSM presented in a way to protect the players from server owners
22:24 Shara          It was hard to think anything positive about it or the development of it, when the message was "server owners bad, players must be given more power to fight back against them!"
22:25 nerzhul        IhrFussel in fact you are right my first idea was to have a generic lua stack without features
22:25 nerzhul        then i started adding calls on client
22:25 nerzhul        to access to client data
22:25 nerzhul        and then ore drama
22:25 nerzhul        then flavour
22:26 nerzhul        then CSM with more API
22:26 nerzhul        then current state
22:28 IhrFussel      I know, but unfortunately 0.4.17.1 servers cannot make use of those 5.0.0 restrictions
22:28 IhrFussel      That is likely what makes server owners mad
22:29 shivajiva      that and the fact we had to fight for any restrictions
22:31 Jordach        MT is stupidly mismanaged, it makes the crap microsoft put out look coherent
22:33 Jordach        the way i see it is, that a fork of MT with 50% of previous major contribs gets chosen over the current mt/mt on GH
22:33 Jordach        either that or the userbase bleeds off *completely*
22:33 Jordach        are we a game engine, or a game? because one dictates the other
22:34 nerzhul        IhrFussel and the 5.0.0 release delay doesn't help, but is this my fault, no
22:35 IhrFussel      No, but it doesn't help current servers ... and even if 5.0.0 released today I doubt that any servers with an established userbase would upgrade to that now ... they would lose lots of active players
22:36 shivajiva      not your fault nerzhul, I'm not saying that either, this was badly managed that's all
22:37 nerzhul        yeah it was badly managed, and the more we wait for 5.0.0 to be released the more you won't have flavours to fix that problem
22:38 shivajiva      that's why I'm trying to find out where this is going from your perspective
22:38 IhrFussel      Servers with many mods (like mine) need to be extensively tested before they can be used in production (although not much should break for the API)
22:38 nerzhul        IhrFussel the compat break is another problem but was announced 2 years ago
22:38 paramat        c55 wants server admin opinions https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7949#issuecomment-445577766
22:38 tumeninodes    every software has breaking releases
22:38 nerzhul        as i already said ,except if i miss some PR no API breakage has been done
22:39 nerzhul        we just have protocol break between client & server
22:39 IhrFussel      I think there are a few things... position offset for player model, mapgen stuff and some more IIRC
22:39 nerzhul        but i never see a game where it's a huge problem with custom servers (CS, CoD, ARK...)
22:40 nerzhul        IhrFussel right, offset i missed
22:40 nerzhul        mapgen stuff should not break maps, if i remember it applied to newly generated blocks
22:41 tumeninodes    better to be late, than to put out a hyped up release, and get poor reviews because it doesn;t live up to the hype... that kills projects quicker than a late release
22:45 tumeninodes    one thing to think about... it is not like those who use the MT engine are going to drop it, and use a different engine..., because there is not one avail. At least none which are as good as MT
22:46 tumeninodes    sounds obnoxious, but it's true
22:48 tumeninodes    it's not really "mismanaged"... it is an open source, volunteer basis dev project. comparing it's development and release schedule to another with a multi-million $ backing is off the mark
22:49 tumeninodes    5.0.0 is marked as a "serious" release... and has no actual "due date" or deadline
22:49 Fixer          right
22:50 tumeninodes    in the mean time, there are still plenty of .this and .thats which can be utilized until 5.0.0 is truly ready, and lives up to the hype
22:51 tumeninodes    no one is at fault... shit happens
22:53 tumeninodes    blaming and egos cause stagnation... wipe up the spilled milk and carry on
22:54 tumeninodes    and anyone who asks "When is 5.0.0 coming..?" can be shot on sight
22:58 nerzhul        shot me then :D
22:58 tumeninodes    xD
22:58 nerzhul        you know 5.0.0 is coming when winter is coming, after 8 seasons
22:58 tumeninodes    nah... we need you
22:59 tumeninodes    hey, as long as no one says "which WInter" we're good
23:02 tumeninodes    Lavos wth?
23:11 paramat        nerz please don't keep blaming everyone for the release delay, 5.0.0 has taken time for very good reason. we have 'taken ownership of the release', i'm the person who has, more than anyone, made it happen, not a long-absent dev who pops up and is seemingly trying to take the credit for making the release happen
23:12 nerzhul        another time you miss the point
23:12 nerzhul        you really think i care about credit on the release lol ? seriously guy ?
23:12 nerzhul        i just want the release to be a reality, i don't care about credit
23:12 nerzhul        and no you didn't take ownership because there is no feature freeze discussion except mine
23:18 paramat        your feature freeze suggestion is ridiculous. anyone can ask for a feature freeze, i kept MT alive and brought us to release
23:18 nerzhul        lol
23:19 nerzhul        i agree you did community things
23:19 nerzhul        it's nice
23:19 paramat        i wish hmmmm was here, he wouldn't take this crap
23:19 nerzhul        but no you didn't triggered a release process with feature freeze
23:19 sfan5          this is some next level toxic retardation
23:19 nerzhul        but hmmmm has left project since 2 years
23:20 paramat        he left mostly because of your attitude
23:20 nerzhul        hmm not only, because it was less interested by the project too
23:21 paramat        true yes
23:21 nerzhul        now i just want to make 5.0.0 a reality, else i don't know when it will be released but what thing is sure, voxel games era is over since 1 year at least
23:22 nerzhul        it's battle arena era currently
23:22 nerzhul        i go to bed, see you alter
23:22 nerzhul        later*
23:28 shivajiva      gn nerzhul
23:29 paramat        5.0.0 will have been released with or without you, it's not you who has made it happen
23:32 Peppy          what will the minimum version of Android required for 5.0 ? (players keep asking)
23:34 shivajiva      I don't think nrz believes he's making it happen, he's just trying to inject some energy
23:38 Peppy          wiki says "Android 4.0 or later" I guess this stands for 0.4.16 as the page is quite old
23:38 Jordach        not everyone wants their name plastered all over the place like a knockoff kardashian
23:38 Jordach        some of us like getting into the codebase and busy with new stuff
23:39 rubenwardy     Paramat helping review blockers is more helpful for the release than suggesting a freeze
23:41 Fixer          most of the time it is paramat in comments
23:46 paramat        it's a difficult situation. once CSM is coded in an open source project it's essentially screwed, hacking is reduced to altering one line. sometimes it seems the only way to make the drawbacks worthwhile is to have the advantages of full server-sent CSM
23:47 paramat        so again, everything or nothing, not CPCSM alone
23:47 paramat        so please support my PR https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/7949
23:48 paramat        ideally CSM should be moved back out to a development branch, due to the big security issues and testing it will need
23:49 paramat        then remerged when complete and if safe
23:50 tumeninodes    if this is the concensus among the server owners/operators, that is the way to go... server owners are the top customers/concerns for MT and MTG
23:50 tumeninodes    2d comes the end users... who most of their experience is via the servers they play on
23:52 Shara          I'd argue that depends on the issue, but CSm is definitely a server owner issue
23:52 tumeninodes    true, it does depend but most of the user base is via servers
23:53 tumeninodes    the rest of the user base are sole/creative users and psychopaths
23:55 tumeninodes    the voxel game era is not dead... it has simply flatlined or plataued but will continue to remain relevant. Someone can also create an arena/voxel game using MT if that is the big thing... arena ga,es have also been around forever
23:56 paramat        i'm happy it's less fashionable, smaller 'cult game' communities are nicer
23:56 tumeninodes    CSM as it is currently, is a nightmare for server owners and that should be focused on. Should be an optional feature regardless
23:57 tumeninodes    maybe developed as a plugin
23:57 tumeninodes    paramat, I agree