IRC log for #minetest-hub, 2018-10-29

Time	Nick	Message
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02:25	sofar	nerzhul: oh wow, indeed
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03:42	tumeninodes	sofar, how much work to update ITB to 5.0, or at least 0.4.17.1 ? :P
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09:33	tenplus1	hi folks
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10:40	tenplus1	hi fixer
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11:03	tenplus1	hi calcul0n
11:03	calcul0n	hello
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11:22	tenplus1	wb Vanessa
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12:47	tenplus1	hi srifqi and aerozoic :P
12:48	srifqi	hi tenplus1
12:48	tenplus1	o/
12:49	* tenplus1	watches "The Story of Queen: Mercury Rising" documentary :) much better than new Bohemian movie
12:49	srifqi	What's that?
12:51	tenplus1	heh, is ok
12:51	srifqi	ok, nvm
12:53	aerozoic	wazup tenplus1 !
12:53	tenplus1	heyas, how's thigns
12:54	aerozoic	eh, server still lags like a turd :(
12:54	tenplus1	aw, that mods are to blame ?
12:55	aerozoic	i suspect it's the 20 year old laptop that is to blame
12:55	tenplus1	ohhh, you're running it off a laptop with hdd ?
12:55	aerozoic	yep
12:55	tenplus1	running windows ?
12:55	aerozoic	no, ubuntu server
12:55	tenplus1	ahh, how much memory has it got ?
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12:56	tenplus1	hi T4im
12:56	nerzhul	hi tenplus1
12:56	aerozoic	i think 3GB, i forgot the command to check it
12:57	tenplus1	if you open terminal and do this: sudo gedit /etc/sysctl.conf ... and add this line to the end and save: vm.swappiness = 10
12:57	tenplus1	you could also enable 'noatime' flag to speed up disk access
13:00	aerozoic	i thought that was a SSD thing?
13:01	tenplus1	works with hdd's also, it stops the last access time being written, so helps a lot
13:01	tenplus1	'trim' is an ssd thing
13:01	srifqi	last access is last modified?
13:01	tenplus1	last time file was read, stops it being written every time a file is accessed, it's not needed
13:04	srifqi	it exists? i only know last modified.
13:04	T4im	hey :)
13:05	tenplus1	this should help: https://www.howtoforge.com/reducing-disk-io-by-mounting-partitions-with-noatime
13:05	T4im	you should not really do "sudo gedit" because that opens gedit as root; rather do "SUDO_EDITOR=gedit sudoedit /etc/sysctl.conf"
13:06	tenplus1	:P
13:06	T4im	i suggest an alias to "sudogedit" for simplicity :p
13:08	T4im	the atime thing is a good tip tho :D
13:08	tenplus1	and the vm.swappiness stops linux accessing virtual memory (which is slow) until it's needed
13:13	aerozoic	is noatime also in sysctl.conf?
13:14	tenplus1	use the link above to add noatime, it's added in /etc/fstab but you have to be careful editing that one
13:14	aerozoic	oh ok
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13:15	aerozoic	the swappiness edit requires a restart to take effect?
13:15	tenplus1	yes
13:16	aerozoic	it's time for a server backup anyway :)
13:16	tenplus1	:D
13:18	T4im	"sysctl vm.swappiness=10" should take immediate effect
13:22	Calinou	adding noatime isn't very useful today
13:22	tenplus1	hi Cal
13:22	Calinou	hi :)
13:23	T4im	hey :) and why not? :o
13:23	tenplus1	for mechanical drives it does speed up file access
13:23	tenplus1	for ssd's it's not too much different
13:23	T4im	well, you want to avoid unnecessary writes to ssd
13:23	T4im	just for longlivity
13:23	tenplus1	true
13:26	nerzhul	hi tenplus1
13:26	nerzhul	hi Calinou
13:26	tenplus1	hi nerzhul
13:26	nerzhul	how are you ?
13:26	tenplus1	good ta :) wondering what traps to add to lucky blocks :PPP you ?
13:26	Calinou	SSDs can stand a lot more writes thank you think
13:26	Calinou	most SSD failures are due to the controller, not the NAND
13:27	Calinou	a few more hundred kilobytes a day won't kill it :)
13:27	nerzhul	i'm ill, but maybe i can push to MT at a point, i play WoW BFA too much haha
13:27	nerzhul	too many achivements to do
13:27	tenplus1	gotta collect 'em all :D
14:15	tenplus1	laters folks :D
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16:14	Fixer	GOTTA FIX THE MINETEST_GAME ALL]
16:14	Fixer	nerzhul: fuck minetest, start writing fully complaint minecraft beta 1.7.3 open source clone with blackjack and hookers
16:15	Fixer	Calinou: went SSD way, shit7/10 is not usable on HDDs
16:22	nerzhul	Fixer: hmm okay, i dont' care about minetest_game
16:22	Fixer	B U S T E D
16:24	Shara	Fixer: What is fixing MTG really?
16:24	Fixer	everyone sees it differently
16:24	Shara	That's the problem
16:25	Shara	Easier to make a new game
16:25	Shara	Unless you think you can fix the people maybe
16:25	Fixer	other worries me
16:25	Fixer	where are new people?
16:26	Shara	Why does this problem need new people?
16:26	Fixer	people tend to leave/afkforever/etc
16:26	Shara	Still not seeing relevance to this
16:27	Shara	Unless you think none of the people around at the moment are capable of making a game
16:28	Fixer	most of us are procrastinators (especially me)
16:29	aerozoic	Fixer has a point, MT is about dead. 5.0 will be the last major release and i predict it won't get past 5.3
16:31	Shara	Oh, so we switched from disscussing MTG to MT now?
16:31	rubenwardy	5.0 being the last major release wouldn't be a problem
16:32	rubenwardy	major releases are interruptive
16:32	rubenwardy	they're breaking
16:32	rubenwardy	there's still massive amounts of interest in using MT for education
16:32	rubenwardy	and still lots of users on Android
16:33	rubenwardy	so really those can be capitalised on somehow to get more contributors
16:34	aerozoic	agreed :)
16:34	VanessaE	MT about dead? :(
16:35	rubenwardy	there's new users joining the discord all the time. New users don't like IRC or even the forums
16:35	rubenwardy	well, maybe not all the time
16:35	rubenwardy	development has been less active since hmmmm left
16:36	rubenwardy	and voxel games are out of fashion
16:36	rubenwardy	but that doesn't mean that you should write a rip off
16:36	rubenwardy	leave that to Mineclone 2
16:38	Fixer	i mean, it is not trolling or smth
16:38	Fixer	look at that this way
16:39	Fixer	what happens if Paramat finds a job, and for example, Shara decides to have 10 kids or whatever, BOOM (tetri.. MTG is dead)
16:39	rubenwardy	well, death to MTG imo
16:39	rubenwardy	;)
16:39	VanessaE	hell no.
16:40	VanessaE	MT needs good base content against which to build mods.
16:40	Fixer	my reasoning, more contributors (they don't need to be active all the time) - more chance to keep project alive
16:40	Shara	Fixer: ten? Come on really :P
16:40	Fixer	if you have, say 10 contributers from time to time and 20... that will be different amount of commits
16:40	rubenwardy	Mods are boring
16:41	rubenwardy	Games are more fun
16:41	rubenwardy	http://twitter.com/Ezhhara
16:41	VanessaE	Shara: better stock-up on contraceptives then eh? :)
16:41	Shara	MTG is fine as a modding base as it is, but the odds of it ever becoming a worthy game in its own right are shrinking.... too hard to get stuff in
16:41	VanessaE	some of us can't code whole games.
16:41	Fixer	maybe Shara will get bored of minetest or changes life-style or whatever, does not matter
16:41	Shara	VanessaE: that's why you build a team
16:41	Fixer	are there new people who will have bright eyes to pick this up, to contribute?
16:41	Fixer	I have even minecraft has problems with that
16:41	Fixer	wtf i wrote
16:42	Fixer	I feel, even minecraft has problems with that*
16:42	VanessaE	Shara: can't build a team if everyone is infected with NIH-syndrome.
16:42	rubenwardy	lol
16:43	rubenwardy	well, maybe we could recruit some people at live ;)
16:43	Shara	a lot of things need reinventing
16:43	Fixer	also, if you have easy entry into DEV, people may have more feel to stay with it (?)
16:43	Shara	Trying to work on MTG has shown me it's got a huge number of problems
16:43	benrob0329	Things that need to be redone never are, and things that don't need to be redone are redone all the time. (This is software dev in general though)
16:44	VanessaE	you know, you COULD just merge mtg with the engine (that is, as a batch of Lua standard components, akin to "builtin")
16:44	Fixer	i'm okay with MTG blocks, textures and sounds (mostly), but after that I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON
16:44	Shara	VanessaE: uhm, no thanks.
16:44	Fixer	ElonToweleeMusk.png
16:44	VanessaE	that would imho reduce the incentive to treat mtg AS a game....
16:44	benrob0329	I think we need to just bundle one other game with 5,0
16:44	Shara	Sure, but then you lump people with that stuff even when they don't want it
16:45	benrob0329	just one
16:45	rubenwardy	Shara: hidden worlds done by december ;)
16:45	Shara	rubenwardy: lol
16:45	rubenwardy	oh god
16:45	benrob0329	choose a decent one, have the community vote on it, just pick one
16:45	VanessaE	Shara: so? they could turn stuff off by config...
16:45	Shara	benrob0329: when the community says what games they want made officially, they typical don't think very far about what that means
16:45	Fixer	btw, I've noticed MT modding community received some new steam with some really nice projects
16:45	Shara	new steam?
16:45	benrob0329	Shara, I suppose that is true
16:46	Shara	more activity?
16:46	Fixer	yes
16:46	benrob0329	I mean, it could still be developed by the main dev of said game
16:46	Shara	Any new official game needs an active team, not just one person
16:46	VanessaE	Shara: again, NIH.
16:46	Shara	Otherwise if that one person gets hit by a bus tomorrow... dead game
16:47	VanessaE	everyone has their own idea of the perfect game
16:47	Fixer	Shara and Paramat hit by a wedding... dead game
16:47	Shara	Fixer: MTG is not a game :)
16:47	* benrob0329	backs out of the discussion, figures he can work on something instead :P
16:47	Fixer	and then rubenwardy goes to work for that mc-related thiny with macbooks
16:48	Fixer	and I hate macbooks and apple
16:48	Shara	Anyway, if anyone wants to help with an actual real attempt to make a game, let me know sometime :)
16:48	VanessaE	benrob0329: I have a whole TODO full of stuff that needs done in some of my mods..... want a piece? :P
16:48	Fixer	okay!
16:48	rubenwardy	VanessaE: they do, but then you have a project leader like Shara who has the canonical idea
16:48	VanessaE	shrug
16:49	Fixer	i'm more worried about IBM-RH thing right now
16:49	Fixer	can be more serious than mt problem
16:49	VanessaE	oh who cares about that BS
16:49	benrob0329	I don't think its too bad, IBM isn't a terrible company from what I can tell
16:49	VanessaE	there's dozens of hardware manufacturers and hundreds of distros.
16:49	benrob0329	Redhat is probably happy to have the extra funding
16:50	Fixer	VanessaE: say, IBM focuses even more on cloud, and drops side contribs to OSS from RH, etc
16:50	benrob0329	IBM is probably happy to have the dev team
16:50	benrob0329	IBM has supported Linux for years though
16:50	Fixer	just kernel?
16:50	VanessaE	Fixer: and if they stop said contributions, so?
16:51	benrob0329	Fixer, more marketing is what I'm referring to, but it is something
16:51	Fixer	VanessaE: then we will have less contributions (Captain Obvious to the rescue)
16:51	Fixer	Intel's ClearLinux is for cloud too?
16:51	VanessaE	Fixer: which, ultimately, will have what effect in reality? practically none, I think. it's not like IBM's coders are the only ones contributing to Linux....
16:52	Fixer	VanessaE: you will have less features, regressions, fixes, etc in OSS programs they contributed too
16:52	Fixer	to*
16:52	VanessaE	features? blah.
16:52	VanessaE	everything I use has enough features.
16:53	benrob0329	"features" at times
16:53	VanessaE	besides,
16:53	VanessaE	it's not like IBM's coders suddenly cease to exist. whatever happened to contributing IN YOUR SPARE TIME?
16:53	Fixer	VanessaE: BUT BUT WE WILL MAKE IT BETTER (................ and also rewrite few times just for fun, who needs stability these days?)
16:53	VanessaE	You know, like in the old days?
16:54	Fixer	TIME TO SYSTEMD/2
16:54	VanessaE	oh wsair
16:54	VanessaE	oh wait...
16:54	VanessaE	time is money
16:54	Fixer	oh, yeeeeees, PERFECT
16:54	VanessaE	even time you'd spend in leisure.
16:54	Fixer	best meme
16:54	VanessaE	every G*d damned fucking line of code/second spent coding is somehow worth some amount of money.
16:55	VanessaE	sorry, I forgot.
16:55	Fixer	yet linux env is been rewritten like crazy
16:56	Fixer	ifconfig - replaced, sysvinit - replaced, policykit or whatever the Kit-crap, replaced, systemd replaces some parts here and there
16:56	Fixer	not saying it is bad
16:56	benrob0329	ifconfig has been dead for years tho
16:56	Fixer	it adds to instability somewhat
16:56	Fixer	people will need to relearn
16:57	Fixer	and they will reeeee because this utility was used for 40 years, and now it is not, ree
16:57	benrob0329	personally I think out entire networking stack is a mess
16:57	Fixer	linux ecosystem always felt weird
16:58	Fixer	it was kernel with glued everything
16:58	Fixer	you want linux with cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeze? sure thing
16:58	Fixer	maybe it is good
16:58	benrob0329	Firmware -> Drivers -> WPA_Supplicant -> DHCPD -> Network Manager -> DE's Frontend
16:58	benrob0329	maybe systemd-networkd manages all of the somewhere on the stack
16:58	benrob0329	or maybe whatever other daemon a distro makes
16:59	Fixer	remember that clusterfuck with gpu drivers, accelereation, xconf editing, that EXA or whatever shit? Some gallium something too, rewritten few times just to be sure
16:59	Fixer	and Wayland is older then sofar kids combined I believe
16:59	Fixer	than*
16:59	benrob0329	now everyone (except nvidia) uses the Direct Render Manager stack
16:59	benrob0329	which is nice because Framebuffers are a thing again
16:59	Fixer	and it is not even stable as of now
16:59	benrob0329	I'm not so sure about that
16:59	Fixer	i remember trying out framebuffer thingy in 2005 or so
17:00	Fixer	was interesting
17:00	Fixer	was running elinks or something in 1024x768 console
17:00	Fixer	noice
17:00	benrob0329	I can play MPV videos on my laptop with no X
17:00	benrob0329	full 1080p
17:00	Fixer	yeah, this can have some neat uses
17:01	Fixer	i never understood very complex Xserver + graphics stack thing
17:01	benrob0329	Xorg runs atop DRI now, most of the time
17:01	benrob0329	Nvidia (as usual) is dragging their feet
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17:05	VanessaE	all I know for sure is this: MT dev, especially MTG, is too confined. too restricted. I dare say too elite. there are not enough people being let in, and it has a bad rep regarding "new and improved". and if there's one thing I've learned from MY userbase (my servers): they want new.
17:05	VanessaE	(where "let in" == given commit access to the repos)
17:06	VanessaE	you want more development activity? fix that ^
17:17	sofar	everlasting struggle
17:17	sofar	people want change but don't vote^W^Wwrite patches
17:17	VanessaE	not "change"
17:17	VanessaE	"new"
17:17	sofar	new what?
17:18	VanessaE	well for example,
17:18	VanessaE	when I launched my skyblock server a few weeks ago, activity went through the roof. more on that one than on all others combined at any time in the previous months.
17:18	VanessaE	eventually the novelty wore off though
17:19	VanessaE	but it's still more popular than my other.
17:19	VanessaE	others*
17:19	VanessaE	but,
17:19	VanessaE	it's based on all the same stuff we've all gotten accustomed to
17:19	VanessaE	cobble.. dirt... etc
17:20	VanessaE	but how the game is played is of course different.
17:20	VanessaE	but it was a new server that made it popular (yes, I Know there are a few other skyblocks out there).
17:21	VanessaE	of course difficult gameplay probably helps too :P
17:21	VanessaE	sorry if I'm talking in circles, but you get the idea.
17:21	sofar	I fail to see a problem
17:22	VanessaE	the prob is MTG is getting stale?
17:22	sofar	oh, mtg, I thought this was in general about mt
17:22	VanessaE	look at that thread Krock and I started regarding the glass door
17:22	* sofar	hands VanessaE soap box material
17:23	VanessaE	(nevermind about the doors themselves, look at the other commentary)
17:23	* VanessaE	slides the soapbox over to the sidee.
17:23	Shara	Well, I want to change the textures, it just needs to remain consistent with the other textures
17:24	Shara	But your arguments just seem to be making the case for games other than MTG
17:24	sofar	and we all applaud that :)
17:24	* sofar	claps yaaay
17:24	Shara	Lol
17:25	VanessaE	Shara: well no, that's not my intent. to be sure, that IS one possible answer
17:25	Shara	I was actually trying to add glass to HW, but I found issues with the drawtypes that really annoy me
17:25	VanessaE	HW?
17:25	Shara	Hidden Worlds
17:25	VanessaE	oh
17:25	Shara	Game that me and a few others here are working on
17:26	VanessaE	but again,
17:26	Shara	And by others I mean... uhm, I think 9 people made actual contributions so far
17:26	VanessaE	look at the door texture PR. forget about the door texture itself and focus on the rest of the discussion.
17:27	Shara	People disagree on things too often. This is known.
17:27	VanessaE	or I"ll condense it: why are MT/MTG devs so afraid of alpha? After what is it, 10 years, MT still doesn't handle alpha entirely properly? THAT's the kind of crap I'm talking about.
17:27	Shara	But it's a fact that a lot of people don't like change, even when it's small. I still remember watching players freak out about small texture changes (snow comes to mind) on multiple servers
17:28	Shara	VanessaE: I'm not.. because here's the secret.. default glass already has flickering issues!
17:28	VanessaE	and why does it flicker?
17:28	VanessaE	what's the underlying issue?
17:28	Shara	glasslike_framed seems to show the back texture, where as glasslike does not
17:28	VanessaE	the problem is lack of Z sorting.
17:28	Shara	so place glasslike against something, and you get z fighting
17:28	Shara	And this is before we get into alpha
17:29	Shara	The real problem with alpha is perhaps what happens with water
17:29	VanessaE	you're talking about Z fighting
17:29	VanessaE	not the same problem
17:29	Shara	You can't see the node when it's under water and you're not
17:29	* Shara	shrugs
17:29	Shara	The point is there are problems
17:29	VanessaE	two different problems with thew same solution
17:29	VanessaE	Z sorting is a technique to that's existed for HOW long?
17:29	Shara	Then find someone who can fix them. I can't. I would if I had that expertise.
17:30	VanessaE	there are people in MT who can fix them
17:30	Shara	But I disagree with the "flickering" being a reason not to use alpha for glass... because glass already flickers
17:31	VanessaE	the problem is the same one I have been complaining about since forever -- coding effort being poured into the wrong things.
17:31	Shara	Right, how to fix that?
17:31	VanessaE	I don't knowe.
17:31	VanessaE	-e
17:31	Shara	Yea, that's the wall I slam into as well, because you can't get people to code anything other than what they want to really.
17:31	VanessaE	that's the kind of problem that can probably only be solved with a good management, which we don't have.
17:32	Shara	What you mean is we don't have any management
17:32	VanessaE	good managemnt.
17:32	Shara	Heh
17:32	VanessaE	well yeah I guess so
17:32	VanessaE	I was trying to be polite.
17:32	VanessaE	you know how I hate to step on peoples' toes or shit on their effort
17:32	VanessaE	efforts*
17:32	Shara	I prefer to say it as I see it, and I don't mean offence to anyone by it.
17:33	Shara	No one is obligated to work on MT, in any specific role or at any level after all.
17:33	VanessaE	I rarely mean to offend, but in this case I guess some offense is unavoidable.
17:33	VanessaE	yes, sure
17:34	VanessaE	but, when you sit down at the keyboard to hack on something, do you not have at least some idea in the back of your mind "I really ought to fix that, that, and that first, but THIS is more interesting?
17:34	VanessaE	"
17:35	Shara	Me personally? Yes. But I'm still constrained by my abilities and to an extent what I do/don't enjoy is going to motivate what things I choose
17:35	VanessaE	sure./
17:35	Shara	There's always more I can think of that I can do and only so much time...
17:35	VanessaE	but let's assume you have the skills to fix "that, that and that" as well as "this".
17:36	Shara	And if the most important one of those is also the most time consuming and annoying thing...?
17:37	VanessaE	well, I can't speak for what you enjoy of course, but logically, whether something is complex or not really shouldn't enter into the equation
17:37	Shara	time consuming or annoying doesn't have to mean complex
17:38	Shara	It's not about me anyway. It's about the people who could do the fixes we need
17:38	Shara	I'd love to know how to motivate them. But I don't.
17:39	VanessaE	when I say "really ought to fix", I refer to issues that you know annoy others, and I'm assuming "this" is either a new feature or some corner case that few people run into compared to one of the "that" items.
17:39	Shara	I can only speak for me personally, and I do try and fix problems.
17:40	VanessaE	when I open my editor, the first thing I do is look at my TODO and see if there's anything I can fix, before I start coding something new (not counting things I'm gonna fix anyway during that session)
17:40	VanessaE	(but my own coding skills are kinda "meh" anymore)
17:41	Shara	All these alpha issues are one of the things that annoy me most. They always have been (my very first mod was working with coloured glass...)
17:42	Shara	I'd fix it if I could, and I'm sure you would as well. But what matters is who could and how to get them to ...
17:42	VanessaE	yeah
17:43	VanessaE	when I look at my mods lately, for some of them I'm the only one doing anything at all
17:43	VanessaE	and that's more than a little discouraging
17:43	Shara	well, that's almost always been the norm for me, with a couple of exceptions
17:43	GreenDimond	FWIW most of us are the only ones working on our mods.
17:44	VanessaE	yeah.
17:44	Shara	I will occasionally write something with one other specific person (not always the same one) because I enjoy having someone to work with on that level and to run through ideas with, but if I depended on that I wouldn't have ever got started
17:44	VanessaE	maybe I'm just getting tired.
17:45	Shara	HW is the first time I've worked with a larger group than that for any of my own MT projects
17:47	rubenwardy	VanessaE: I'd have no idea where to start, and I'd probably do it wrong anyway
17:47	rubenwardy	The wrong fix is sometimes worse than no fix
17:47	* VanessaE	shrugs
17:48	VanessaE	isn't the correction to just fix what you can fix, then?
17:48	VanessaE	correct*
17:48	VanessaE	gah, my grammar....
17:48	Shara	:D
17:48	VanessaE	correct action ***
17:50	rubenwardy	GreenDimond: I've had a lot of contributors to my mods over the years
17:50	rubenwardy	but as in most projects, the founder is the biggest contributor
17:50	rubenwardy	even in Minetest
17:50	rubenwardy	celeron55 is still the top contributor
17:52	Shara	Roughly 3/4 of HW commits are me, so yea, it's expected
17:52	rubenwardy	possibly the only exception is Linux
17:52	Shara	At this rate, HW will have more commits than MTG by the time it's released as well :D
17:52	rubenwardy	the #1 is a redhat guy
17:52	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome
17:53	VanessaE	heh
17:58	luk3yx	All those other issue references.
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18:01	VanessaE	here's another example btw: why exactly did mtg import gold, tin, bronze, etc. from moreores, but not silver and mithril?
18:02	VanessaE	what's the logic/rationale for continuing to leave them out>
18:02	VanessaE	?
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18:14	Shara	VanessaE: I don't know and I wish it hadn't
18:14	VanessaE	hadn't imported those metals, or hadn't left-out the last two?
18:15	Shara	First option
18:15	Shara	MTG has no good use for extra metals
18:15	VanessaE	it doesn't need to have.
18:15	VanessaE	it's supposed to be a modding base. that means providing a set of materials other mods can use.
18:15	Shara	Is it?
18:15	VanessaE	yep.,
18:16	Shara	Is that official anywhere?
18:16	T4im	having silver when you already have gold seems reasonable; but is mithtril not a Lord of the rings thing?
18:16	Shara	I think that's what it should be, but not one ever seems to agree
18:16	VanessaE	I'm not sure, but that's been the overarching theme of mtg for a while
18:16	Shara	T4im: part of my issue
18:16	VanessaE	T4im: I don't know what its origin is.
18:16	Shara	It's a made up metal either way
18:17	Shara	Not everyone wants the base their built on to have fantasy elements
18:17	VanessaE	Shara: mese, anyone?
18:17	T4im	and one that may be inconsistent in relationship to diamonds in usage of tools and armor
18:17	Shara	That's an MT specific material though
18:17	Krock	o/ another moe avatar for sfan5. Nice ^^
18:17	VanessaE	but it's still fantasy.
18:18	VanessaE	mithril could be imported and given a new name (plus an alias of course).
18:18	sfan5	:3
18:18	Shara	mithril is recognisable for being in lot sof high fantasy whatevers, whereas mese could be anything
18:18	Shara	lots of*
18:18	T4im	seems there are no reasons to leave out silver tho
18:18	T4im	progress? :)
18:18	VanessaE	Shara: mese is still fantasy. it may as well be Unobtanium :P
18:19	VanessaE	or Adamantium
18:19	VanessaE	or Vibranium :P
18:19	Shara	Anyway, using this logic, we may as well add everything from every mod ever to MTG
18:19	rubenwardy	minetest is a shit modding base
18:19	VanessaE	given how it's used in-game
18:19	Shara	Because someone might want it in the modding base
18:19	VanessaE	nonono
18:19	VanessaE	BASE is the key word.
18:19	Flitzpiepe	Hello everyone. Is there a use for silver if there is no technics-mod installed?
18:19	Shara	VanessaE: I'd personally like a modding base that has willow trees.
18:19	luk3yx	Shara: Is your HW subgame open-source yet?
18:19	VanessaE	is a home decor kitchen cabinet a base material? No. but the wood it's made from is.
18:20	rubenwardy	also, the modding base thing died around 0.4.7
18:20	VanessaE	rubenwardy: not really. it's still very much alive.
18:20	rubenwardy	it was only one release which was frozen and "a base for modding"
18:20	rubenwardy	then the next was merged in
18:20	rubenwardy	now one of the aims is to be moddable
18:20	Shara	luk3yx: it's licensed as such, but in a hidden repo until we get a bit further. Feel free to PM if you'd like to get involved
18:21	luk3yx	Not sure what I'd help with though.
18:21	VanessaE	Shara: what I'm saying is that mtg should have things like metal bars (not ingots, think rebar), spools of wire, a "lock" item, things like that.
18:21	VanessaE	rubenwardy: ^
18:21	Shara	VanessaE: why though? Not every game is going to have any use for these things
18:22	VanessaE	no, but not every game has a use for dirt either.
18:22	T4im	plastic tbh
18:22	Shara	Maybe while you want silver and find it useful, I want rubies and emeralds
18:22	VanessaE	in fact, dirt is probably the least-utilized material in mtg
18:22	VanessaE	T4im: homedecor's plastic process ftw :)
18:23	rubenwardy	dirt populates like 90% of the surface
18:23	T4im	it'd be quickly used in a lot of recipes
18:23	VanessaE	rubenwardy: and is used in how many recipes, compared to let's say, cobble?
18:23	T4im	although the oil's burn value needs to be seriously nerfed
18:23	Shara	Recipe use is hardly onlu use
18:23	Shara	only*
18:23	rubenwardy	^
18:23	Shara	It's used in.. every farming mod ever?
18:23	VanessaE	T4im: 6 leaves -> oil -> wax -> plastic sheet.
18:23	T4im	i know
18:24	VanessaE	Shara: what is?
18:24	Shara	Dirt :P
18:24	VanessaE	Shara: um.. no. you're thinking of the hoe.
18:24	VanessaE	the dirt just sits there once you hoe it.
18:24	VanessaE	(well it turns wet of course)
18:24	Shara	Oh, so you'd hoe what.. air?
18:24	VanessaE	but you don't actually USE it.
18:24	Shara	Dirt is a pretty vital component.
18:25	T4im	how would you use dirt? O_o
18:25	VanessaE	you don't for example, hoe the dirt and then dig it and use it in a recipe, do you?
18:25	Shara	You don't have to directly use a thing for it to be useful.
18:25	VanessaE	that's what I mean by "use" in this contexty.
18:25	VanessaE	I don't care what can be done TO an item, necessarilyh.
18:25	Shara	And as I said: Recipe use is hardly only use
18:25	GreenDimond	-y -h
18:26	VanessaE	I care what the item can be actively used IN, i.e. a recipe, or cooked into something that can be.
18:26	VanessaE	get what I mean?
18:26	Shara	I get what you mean, but I disagree with it being the only thing of importance when deciding if an item belongs in a modding base
18:26	VanessaE	nono
18:27	VanessaE	I'm just saying that dirt is, by that metric, the least-useful item in the game
18:27		garywhite joined #minetest-hub
18:27	Shara	And I'm saying it's a stupid metric :)
18:27	VanessaE	ok fine
18:27	VanessaE	you can hoe it and grow stuff on it.
18:27	VanessaE	and build an ugly-ass n00bhut with it.
18:27	VanessaE	what else?
18:28	Shara	I'm not even sure what the point of this discussion is anymore.
18:28	Shara	Make a PR to remove dirt from MTG already? :D
18:28	VanessaE	answer the question :)
18:28	Shara	What more do you want to do with it?
18:28	VanessaE	I'm not saying I want to do more with it.
18:28	VanessaE	I'm asking if you know of any other uses sans mods.
18:29	Shara	It's also vital to plant growth mechanics beyond farming, and creating an even slightly realistic mapgen
18:29	Shara	What do you want trees to grow from?
18:29	rubenwardy	mithril
18:29	VanessaE	ok. so it's terrain. I thought that was kinda obvious :)
18:29	Shara	VanessaE: it's use is obvious!
18:30	VanessaE	now consider iron. when made into steel, it makes tools. added to a chest, it becomes a lock.
18:30	VanessaE	right?
18:30	Shara	But okay, you submit the PR to remove dirt, and rubenwardy can do one adding mithril and making trees grow from that, then we're sorted?
18:30	Shara	VanessaE: nono
18:30	Shara	iron can be made into an ingot. That's it.
18:30	Shara	May as well make a shop that sells ingots directly and have done.
18:30	VanessaE	I'm equating iron to steel here.
18:30	VanessaE	but,
18:31	VanessaE	suppose now you have a spool of wire like the one homedecor uses.
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18:31	VanessaE	(as part of mtg, hypothetically)
18:32	Shara	But nothing in MTG needs wire
18:32	VanessaE	I know.
18:32	VanessaE	but,
18:32	VanessaE	what all can you do with wire? think theoretical, what items could you add via a mod that would most logically be made from wire?
18:33	Shara	Well again, make a PR, you only need two devs to agree.
18:33	VanessaE	two things that come to mind are HD's fences, or let's say wire plus wheat = a bale of hay.
18:34	VanessaE	I'd make PRs but why bother? the idea's dead before I even put it into code.
18:34	rubenwardy	bales usually use string
18:34	VanessaE	rubenwardy: nope.
18:34	rubenwardy	commonly plastic-derived
18:34	VanessaE	not where I grew up.
18:34	VanessaE	there's a reason we called it "baling wire".
18:34	rubenwardy	wire's a bit mad
18:34	Shara	So now MTG needs region-specific hay-bale ties?
18:34	VanessaE	think square bales, not the big round ones.
18:35	VanessaE	Shara: nonono you're not getting it.
18:35	Shara	I am getting it; I'm just not agreeing with it.
18:35	VanessaE	Shara: I'm speaking hypothetically but if you prefer something more universal, how about rebar.
18:37	Shara	Can we just agree on disagreeing?
18:39	Shara	I already find it difficult to be motivated to do much for MTG.
18:39	VanessaE	I can agree to disagree, but you know perfectly well that I have a point.
18:41	VanessaE	T4im: so.... plastic PR when? :)
18:42	Shara	You have many points, and I agree with some but not all of them
18:42	Shara	I'd like MTG to be a good modding base, but when the approach to that is filling it with items MTG itself doesn't use... I can't agree there
18:43	VanessaE	you DO know why I suggest this right?
18:44	Shara	I don't really want to make any assumptions at this point
18:45	VanessaE	well, it's because no one likes the duplication problems we have, and putting such things into some kind of "basic materials" mod just means one more thing for mods to depend on that "didn't come with the game"
18:45	Shara	Yes, but that has the matching problem that no one likes content/clutter they have no use for
18:46	VanessaE	sure.
18:47	VanessaE	on the other hand, whatever happened to just ignoring items you have no use for?
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18:48	Shara	VanessaE: not everyone wants clutter
18:48	Shara	I shouldn't need to ignore things I don't want
18:48	Shara	Not to mention players crafting them then asking me what use it has... then after that getting nagry they wasted resources?
18:49	Shara	If you start a crafting chain there's an implication there is a point to it and it goes somewhere
18:49	Shara	angry*
18:49	VanessaE	perhaps, but which is better? to have some clutter because of things you don't need, or to need something you don't have because someone doesn't want to install the mod that provides it?
18:49	Shara	This is really basic gameplay development...
18:49	rubenwardy	the former, definitely
18:49	Shara	They should install the mods they need
18:50	rubenwardy	I am very opposed to this idea
18:50	rubenwardy	wait, I misread
18:50	rubenwardy	the former is definitely worse
18:51	rubenwardy	with
18:51	VanessaE	rubenwardy: ok. so I guess that means I should submit a PR to remove walls, gates, and xpanes....
18:51	rubenwardy	with CDB, it will be much easier to find dependencies
18:51	VanessaE	because I have no use for those and they're standard components.
18:51	rubenwardy	those all have uses
18:51	rubenwardy	would be better to remove vessels
18:51	rubenwardy	;)
18:51	VanessaE	do they?
18:52	* tumeninodes	walks in the middle convo, and makes straight for the kitchen, hopefully unnoticed
18:53	VanessaE	vessels has an interesting use actually - stacked two-high, a vessels shelf looks like one of those soda refrigerators you find at the check-out line at a grocery store.
18:53	VanessaE	tumeninodes: grab me a pizza while you're in there?
18:53	VanessaE	:)
18:54	tumeninodes	:D
18:54	tumeninodes	I can't... no one installed the pizza mod
18:54	tumeninodes	:P
18:54	VanessaE	haha
18:54	Shara	I'd ask for tea, but no one even wrote that mod to begin with :(
18:55	Shara	VanessaE: why does homedecor not have a teapot?
18:55	VanessaE	food mod has tea doesn't it?
18:55	tumeninodes	I know I saw a tea mod once
18:55	VanessaE	as for a HD teapot? never thought about it. it's a good idea though.
18:55	VanessaE	PR's welcomd
18:55	VanessaE	PR's welcome*
18:55	Shara	If I could make models, I would...
18:55	tumeninodes	call NathanS
18:56	Shara	NathanS21!!! Save us please!
18:56		redneonglow joined #minetest-hub
18:56	Shara	But yea, that is much wanted by me and my players.
18:56	VanessaE	make it a glass carafe. add some metal to it, it becomes a teapot. or, add some other items, it becomes a coffee maker :)
18:57	VanessaE	oh wait, that would make it another item to cause "clutter"
18:57	VanessaE	:)
18:57	tumeninodes	I am stunned no one has made a juicer mod
18:57	Shara	VanessaE: it's not MTG though :)
18:57	Shara	And would fit very well in homedecor
18:57	VanessaE	Shara: pfft. may as well be, like 99% of servers have homedecor :)
18:57	Shara	But I'd be totally fine with it as a separate mod
18:58	tumeninodes	we could make apple juice, orange juice, ... banananana juice
18:58	VanessaE	tumeninodes: what, no smoothies?
18:58	Shara	tumeninodes: only if you design me a banananana tree
18:58	VanessaE	(we DO have ice)
18:58	tumeninodes	one banananana smoothie tree, coming up
18:59	Shara	:)
18:59	VanessaE	Shara: I'd separate-out homedecor's base materials (like wire, plastic, metal strips, etc) into a "basic_materials" mod, but who would use it?
18:59	tumeninodes	I just want someone to put the bed PR through... cuz I kinda forgot to set up a new branch when I did it :/
18:59	T4im	homedecor would; so practically every server, VanessaE, or not? :x
18:59	Shara	VanessaE: I'd see that as good... if they were being used by other mods
18:59	VanessaE	Shara: BINGO.
19:00	VanessaE	you JUST hit on the problem.
19:00	rubenwardy	it's better to have separate mods
19:00	rubenwardy	eg: plastic, metalworks
19:00	T4im	pipeworks would probably be the first
19:00	Shara	I like separation and havign lots of smaller mods
19:00	rubenwardy	anyway
19:00	T4im	technic, too
19:00	rubenwardy	food solved this problem years ago
19:00	VanessaE	rubenwardy: again, who would use it?
19:00	Shara	DOesn't mean you should automatically drop those into MTG
19:00	VanessaE	s/it/them/
19:01	rubenwardy	https://github.com/rubenwardy/food/blob/master/food_basic/support.lua#L14
19:01	VanessaE	Shara: of course not. bit getting people to use a "library" or two of base materials is orders of magnitude easier if they don't have to seek it/them out.
19:01	VanessaE	but*
19:01	rubenwardy	again, CDB
19:02	VanessaE	...doesn't work in 0.4.x
19:02	VanessaE	and 5.0.0 isn't out
19:02	tumeninodes	should be individual material mods (basic materials), then there would be mods which would depend on those but add items/objects people would choose based on their own preference
19:02	rubenwardy	it works in 0.4.x
19:02	rubenwardy	it's a HTTP API
19:03	rubenwardy	you could make a CLI for it
19:03	VanessaE	rubenwardy: er...no mod store in 0.4.x
19:03	VanessaE	if 5.0.0 was already out and 0.4.x were dead, I would agree with your premise
19:03	tumeninodes	mapgen items should be exclusive to mapgen (nature stuff) like trees, stone, dirt, then have individual mods for manmade materials from those
19:03	VanessaE	but right now that just is not reality
19:03	rubenwardy	CDB is a website
19:03	rubenwardy	and a HTTP API
19:03	VanessaE	yeah I know that
19:03	rubenwardy	the mod store is just a client for it
19:03	rubenwardy	you could make a CLI program to manage it
19:03	VanessaE	but what use is API to an end user?
19:03	rubenwardy	and it would be great to have anyway
19:03	VanessaE	"end user"
19:03	rubenwardy	as adding that to minetest would be a pain
19:04	rubenwardy	end users shouldn't use 0.4.x for much longer
19:04	VanessaE	i.e. someone who doesn't know a text editor from a hole in the wall
19:05	VanessaE	checks server list 12 entries for "5.0.0" out of 201 servers.
19:05	rubenwardy	anyway
19:05	tumeninodes	wall editors, and text holes
19:05	rubenwardy	I have coursework
19:05	VanessaE	yep, not even close.
19:05	rubenwardy	that's because it's not released yet
19:05	VanessaE	exactl
19:07	VanessaE	I'm talking about what we have to deal with right now, not 2 years from now when 5.0.1 goes out the door.
19:08	rubenwardy	if 5.0.0 is in dec/jan, then 5.0.1 will be march-ish
19:08	VanessaE	sarcasm, jeez
19:08	Shara	Well I'm certainly not approving a whole bunch of new MTG items (that I consider clutter) because 5.0 is not released yet... when those items wouldn't be in MTG until 5.0 anyway
19:08	VanessaE	until 5.0.0 is actually out, it may as well be years away.
19:08	* Krock	screams for real floats and cleaned up HUDs
19:09	rubenwardy	^
19:09	Krock	(someone made PRs for that IIRC)
19:09	rubenwardy	anyway, I need to do work
19:09	rubenwardy	bye
19:09		rubenwardy left #minetest-hub
19:10		rubenwardy joined #minetest-hub
19:10	sfan5	wb
19:10	VanessaE	short work :P
19:11	rubenwardy	decided I'll just mute it
19:11	Krock	good decision
19:11	VanessaE	mute it?
19:11	tumeninodes	XD
19:11	rubenwardy	the channel
19:11	VanessaE	oh, I did that years ago.
19:11	VanessaE	I can't stand sounds in IRC.
19:11	rubenwardy	no
19:12	rubenwardy	I mean "permanently hide", so I no longer see the channel in my channel switcher
19:12	rubenwardy	but it still collects logs
19:12	rubenwardy	I'm writing a VM with pipelining, out-of-order execution, and branch prediction
19:12	rubenwardy	almost as painful as MT dev
19:12	Krock	you're still not working btw
19:13	VanessaE	shrug I just ignore channels I don't have time (or interest at the moment) to participate in
19:13	rubenwardy	oh damn
19:13	Krock	:P
19:13	* tumeninodes	could have used some branch prediction when he did his last PR
19:15	* VanessaE	adds the "basic materials" idea to her TODO
19:17	Shara	Coming up with good divisions for things isn't always easy, but seems very worth the effort
19:17	Shara	Trying to avoid a monster like default in HW has been fun
19:18	VanessaE	well in this case, if I do it at all, I'm not going to bother separating plastic from metal from glass (if any)....that's for the recycle bin. :P
19:18	Shara	And I have extra complications when it comes to recipes because of the changed crafting system
19:22	VanessaE	changed?
19:25	Shara	Not using crafting grid
19:25	VanessaE	oh
19:28	Shara	Anyone know why areas mod tells me a player that is standing right in front of me doesn't exist when I try to change area ownership to him?
19:29	VanessaE	not sure.
19:29	Shara	I've never had this happen before
19:29	rubenwardy	anything special about their name?
19:29	rubenwardy	ie: -_
19:30	Shara	Actually can't change ownership to anyone
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19:30	VanessaE	make sure there are no extraneous spaces in the command
19:30	paramat	good grief ... day of insanity in this channel =/
19:30	Shara	If I try to change ownership of someone else's area to me, it informs me "The player "Shara" does not exist."
19:31	VanessaE	I get bit by that a lot.
19:31	Shara	Well, it's just areas... I haven't changed it
19:33	VanessaE	paramat: when isn't it insane in here?
19:35	garywhite	Certainly not today
19:42	paramat	VanessaE, being cautious about using alpha in MTG glass textures is a good thing, not a bad thing, due to the visual glitches. we've already explained the silver/mithril issues, silver maybe, mithril is too unoriginal
19:44	Shara	paramat: any idea why glasslike_framed shows me the backface of the glass whereas glasslike doesn't?
19:44	Shara	This inconsistency is really annoying
19:45	paramat	Fixer if you have a problem with MTG, write your own game instead of being negative and hysterical. we've been asking for new games for years, anything good and original, big or small, will be bundled with MT
19:46	Shara	paramat: no, not "anything"
19:46	Shara	That's a recipe for disaster :P
19:46	VanessaE	paramat: the "explanation" as I remember it was "rainbow caves" and "too many nodes". neither applies today.
19:47	VanessaE	paramat: and good games HAVE been submitted before. none have been accepted, but then they weren't rejected either. simply no action was taken.
19:48	paramat	Shara no idea about glasslike framed, numberzero is the expert. i guess the drawtype is hardcoded to not do backface culling
19:48	Shara	It means you get flickering anytime a glasslike_framed node is placed directly against another node... this is not using alpha
19:48	Shara	It looks terrible
19:49	VanessaE	that's Z fighting
19:49	shivajiva	heh, that took a while to read and digest :)
19:49	VanessaE	don't conflate that with the other alpha glitch that we have
19:49	Shara	VanessaE: I'm not. I'm interested in this because it's currently effecting things I'm working on.
19:49	shivajiva	my players use it for a tv screen, something to watch flickering xD
19:49	paramat	(well perhaps 'anything good enough')
19:51	paramat	glasslike framed backface flicker is worth an issue, and tag numberzero :)
19:51	Shara	Sure
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19:51		garywhite joined #minetest-hub
19:51	Shara	I'd be amazed if there is not an issue somewhere yet though?
19:53	Shara	VanessaE: this is the issue with alpha glass: http://gingercat.tk/mt/water_glass.gif
19:54	Shara	That's without me even moving. It just does this
19:54	VanessaE	idk what even causes that
19:54	VanessaE	but I see it even without glass
19:54	Shara	Me neither, but this would be the norm if we used alpha for default glass
19:54	VanessaE	like if an underwater cave is in just the right spot
19:54	Shara	And I want alpha for glass, just to be clear
19:55	Shara	HW ice uses alpha as well, I inisted on it, despite this... but thankfully the flickering is very hard to notice with the exact texture used
20:04	paramat	i would consider silver ore in MTG if it is used a lot by mods. but not mithril. the caution is probably due to adding bronze and tin, many see those as mistakes
20:05	paramat	i can't remember an issue for glasslike framed z-fighting
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20:06	shivajiva	not related to #95 then
20:06	ShadowBot	https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/95 -- Seeing more lava through see-through lava (no translucency depth-sorting)
20:08	paramat	correct, different
20:09	garywhite	wb Bobr
20:13	Bobr	thnaks
20:14	VanessaE	shivajiva, paramat: you know, there's a certain irony in referencing that issue. "NO TIME!!!11one"... that issue is 6 years old.
20:15	VanessaE	translation: I don't buy the "we have no time" argument. something THAT old is clearly "no one cares enough to fix it"
20:15	VanessaE	(considering how much dev has happened since then)
20:16	Shara	It's not about time, but maybe is about someone with the right skills
20:16	VanessaE	n o
20:16	VanessaE	no.
20:16	VanessaE	it's always "no time">
20:16	VanessaE	that is ALWAYS the first thing I hear.
20:16	Shara	Don't no me when I'm agreeing with you?
20:16	* Shara	tries to carefully tug the bag of nos away from VanessaE
20:17	Bobr	laughing gas i get it lol
20:18	paramat	core devs don't have time for it now, that's my point. previously, sure perhaps we were lazy about it
20:18	VanessaE	June 2012. I seem to recall between then and a couple years ago, we had a certain "Angel" who had the time, skills, and inclination to make those kinds of fixes, but whose work was constantly being delayed from going into mainline
20:18	paramat	it's a really big task too
20:20	paramat	i'm not sure RBA could have fixed that. and note his work was often sloppy
20:20	* VanessaE	shrugs.
20:20	VanessaE	sloppy maybe, but his stuff worked.
20:20	Krock	better sloppy work than none. former can be adapted/adopted, latter not.
20:21	VanessaE	he almost gave us true lighting.
20:21	VanessaE	I still have a copy of those kick-ass water and lava shaders he made.
20:21	paramat	if anything delayed his stuff being merged it was probably for good reason. i don't remember any sort of conspiracy against him
20:22	VanessaE	paramat: I'm not saying there was a conspiracy against him
20:22	Krock	I remember some flamewars but that's another topic
20:22	paramat	'worked' is not good enough
20:22	VanessaE	rather, "Pefect is the enemy of good"
20:22	VanessaE	I mean ffs you guys delay merges because of whitespace and other code style issues.
20:22	paramat	we've had to fix so much of his stuff that caused problems later
20:23	VanessaE	(I get it, good code style ensures readability and maintainability)
20:24	paramat	hardware lighting is a very difficult task, it was discussed a lot. RBA may well not have been able to cope with it, and no he didn't almost develop it, he didn't even start
20:24	VanessaE	he made it work.
20:24	VanessaE	I've seen his screenshots of it.
20:25	VanessaE	I don't recall why his code was never published though
20:26	GreenDimond	Read some backlog. VanessaE: Literally an addon for Blender that makes teapots
20:26	paramat	he didn't make hardware lighting work. he just managed a very basic example that ignored all the difficult issues
20:27	paramat	"you guys delay merges because of whitespace and other code style issues" yes :) it's called code quality
20:27	* VanessaE	sighs
20:27	VanessaE	you and I have very different ideas about what makes for good code quality....
20:28	paramat	VanessaE i've never seen you write so much sillyness in one day before, sigh, but nevermind :)
20:28	GreenDimond	Blendaddon is "Add mesh: Extra objects" btw, VanessaE.
20:28	VanessaE	GreenDimond: wtf are you talking about?
20:28	GreenDimond	teapot
20:29	VanessaE	GreenDimond: er, no. that would be the Utah Teapot, and anyway, different discussion.
20:29	VanessaE	paramat: sillines?
20:29	VanessaE	ok, frankly now I take offense.
20:29	GreenDimond	Theres more than one kind of teapot :v
20:29	GreenDimond	Stop the Earth, im getting off.
20:30	paramat	we're not sloppy, we're not freeminer, luckily. good codestyle makes dev tolerable
20:30	Shara	GreenDimond: I've known some people literally collect teapots :)
20:30	VanessaE	GreenDimond: the one in Blender afaik is the Utah Teapot, pretty sure that's copyrighted.
20:30	VanessaE	paramat: and no one's asking you guys to take on those "qualities", either.
20:31	VanessaE	but just as Krock said (reworded), sloppy code is better than none at all. you can't fix, let alone merge, that which doesn't exist.
20:33	VanessaE	(one assumes "sloppy" does not translate into "poorly-written" or "inefficient")
20:33	paramat	"sloppy code is better than none at all." not so actually. better to not add something non-essential than add bad, buggy, intensive code
20:33	VanessaE	facepalm
20:34	paramat	and you can fix code in a PR before it gets merged
20:36	VanessaE	you know full well how unworkable that process can be.
20:38	VanessaE	fork -> make changes -> make PR -> fix some aspect of PR -> (repeat a few times) -> 6 months later, unmergeable because the codebase has changed too much, would take more effort to fix than to just start over -> PR dies
20:38	VanessaE	do that enough times, contributor gives up.
20:40	VanessaE	a lot of that is simply because MT lacks any "horribly-unstable" branch
20:41	VanessaE	(but that would have issues of its own)
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21:58	rubenwardy	Adding sloppy code is how you get unmaintainable mess
21:58	rubenwardy	Sloppy fixes isn't so bad, as long as it's well contained
21:58	VanessaE	sure, if no one bothers to fix-up....
21:58	VanessaE	oh forget it. i give up.
21:59	rubenwardy	no one will bother to fix it
21:59	rubenwardy	except for me, years later, by which point it's a massive PITA
22:00	Fixer	VanessaE: "skyblock is sooo 2011"
22:02	Fixer	VanessaE: z-sorting is huge problem when you build underwater
22:05	VanessaE	...
22:10	Fixer	mese vs diamond
22:13	Fixer	VanessaE: plastic for what? We have useless metals already :D
22:13	VanessaE	...
22:17	Fixer	walls are for aesthetics
22:17	VanessaE	I thought they were nutjob presidents?
22:17	* VanessaE	hides
22:19	Fixer	remove vessels? Ree, they are for aesthetics, please decide why you even develope the game, what it is, how it will look
22:20	Fixer	I've learned from MC that you can design blocks in such a way, your creativity explodes just by placing that block different way
22:20	Fixer	rubenwardy: do you have stats for mod downloads on CDB?
22:22	VanessaE	hence the idea I mentioned. stack two vessel shelves, put back home decor window shutters on back, a glass door on front, and you have a check-out line soda fridge or vending machine.
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22:22	VanessaE	black shutters*
22:22	benrob0329	garywhite, if you register with SASL you won't expose your IP to the channel
22:25	Fixer	maybe it is time to throw away that crafting system crap
22:25	garywhite	Someone else on another network told me to do that but never said how...
22:25	Fixer	and go terraria way
22:25	Fixer	so annoying
22:26	Fixer	VanessaE: moreores merge was too fast tbh, they have little to no use, only for aesthetics
22:27	Fixer	and z-sorting blinking may induce epilepsy to some people, I feel
22:27	VanessaE	skyblock makes use of moreores for quests
22:28	Fixer	Shara: water_glass.gif is lack of z(alpha)-sorting, needs to be implemented in engine itself
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22:30	benrob0329	garywhite, for you, perhaps, but not for me
22:30	benrob0329	also nice realname :P
22:31	garywhite	heh
22:31	Fixer	VanessaE: RBA shaders were slow, same with MC shaders, needs powerful GPU ($200 or so)
22:31	VanessaE	$200 GPU? what is this, 2008?
22:33	Fixer	sometimes sloppy code is bad, but if you have someone to work on it after merge, probably no problem
22:34	rubenwardy	well, depends what "sloppy" means
22:34	rubenwardy	I do feel that code style reviews aren't a good idea
22:34	Fixer	remember that epic SFS patch that improved performance? It was reopened like 3 times and was sitting for a loooooong time
22:35	rubenwardy	that was partially my fault
22:35	rubenwardy	I rebased it but did it wrong
22:35	rubenwardy	this was way before I became a dev
22:36	Fixer	also, for engine dev, review is probably okay, but god damn MTG can sure move faster (maybe?)?
22:37	Fixer	VanessaE: prices are very bad these days, pentium for $100, budget GPU crap for $150
22:38	Fixer	VanessaE: mem price doubled
22:38	Fixer	RIP PC users
22:38	VanessaE	not the comparison I was making.
22:38	Fixer	MC finally copied MT style stone slabs
22:38	Fixer	in 2018
22:39	Fixer	now it feels like in minetest
22:39	VanessaE	GPUs in the $200 range 10 years ago were still enormously powerful compared to the "must run on integrated graphics paradigm" that's dominated so much of MT.
22:40	VanessaE	s/ paradigm\"/\" paradigm/
22:42	Fixer	I had 30 fps on RBA shaders with $200 HD6870 back in the day
22:42	Fixer	and about 30-60 in MC SEUS shaders
22:42	VanessaE	HD6870 is a good GPU but kinda low-end now :P
22:43	VanessaE	(I think Abe's box has one of those still)
22:44	Fixer	VanessaE: yes, but back in the day it was okayish
22:44	VanessaE	yep
22:44	Fixer	now I'm on intel hd
22:44	VanessaE	but if "$200 GPU" is your metric, that one fits quite well
22:44	VanessaE	as does my R9 280X ($180)
22:44	Fixer	does it still work?
22:45	VanessaE	iow, "any old-ass GPU less than 10 or 15 years old" :P
22:45	VanessaE	what that 6870 in Abe's box?
22:45	garywhite	The reason the "must run on integrated graphics paradigm" is so prominent is cause the majority of people don't own a desktop anymore (myself included)
22:46	Fixer	VanessaE: my 6870 died just before 5 years, and I did not even used it much, SAD!
22:46	Fixer	and then manufacturers ramped up prices to ridiculous levels
22:46	VanessaE	garywhite: I don't think that's true. most people probably have a mobile, yes, not "don't own a desktop" doesn't correlate as well as you'd think
22:46	VanessaE	no serious gamer does their gaming on a mobile.
22:47	Fixer	yep
22:47	VanessaE	Fixer: well, afaik, the one I have in his old box still works (the machine was shut down and shelved after I moved after he died)
22:47	rud0lf	when i travel i use playstation emu with otg gamepad
22:48	Fixer	i always had problems with GPUs for some reason
22:48	Fixer	previous one had snow(gpu) and mem errors
22:48	Fixer	before that was fine
22:48	Fixer	but that was gf2mx
22:48	VanessaE	any problems I ever had, aside from hardware failure (which can happen to just anything) was traced to bad drivers.
22:51	garywhite	I'm gonna rephrase to say the average user doesn't have a desktop anymore, gamers almost always do, but average users don't anymore
22:51	VanessaE	and MT is what, a word processor?
22:51	VanessaE	no. it's a game (engine).
22:54	garywhite	But more and more average users are playing games on their laptops instead of a desktop PC
22:54	VanessaE	my point is, MT should be able to take full advantage of a modern GPU
22:55	garywhite	I agree with that, but it should also be able to run smoothly on systems that can't be upgraded
22:55	VanessaE	if old-ass games like OpenArena can manage both high-end and low end, so can MT, ignoring for the moment that no one coding for MT seems to have the trinity of skills, time, and motivation to make it happen
22:57	VanessaE	but that's all moot
22:57	VanessaE	and not related to the earlier discussion
22:58	garywhite	...on another note, I just found out that my laptop is actually even slower than I thought, I was looking up another model for a friend and I found that my CPU is actually dual-core instead of quad-core like I originally thought
22:58	Fixer	I'm not against laptops, btw
22:58	Fixer	laptops are somewhat weak on cpu, gpu...
22:58	Fixer	if you buy cheap
22:58	Fixer	and people buy cheap crap
22:59	VanessaE	hell, even my phone probably has a better GPU than the "integrated graphics" MT was originally written for :P
23:00	garywhite	Yeah, in fact tbh a few months ago I was able to get MT 0.4.17 to run on my old Core 2 Duo laptop (although it was rather slow) and that was on 10-year-old integrated graphics, I think
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23:02	Fixer	try disabling shaders
23:04	Fixer	VanessaE: i've played MT 0.2-0.3-0.4 on GPU from 2003, FEEL OLD YET?
23:04	VanessaE	nope.
23:04	VanessaE	you forget, I started with 0.3 and I run a server meant to act like 0.2.
23:05	VanessaE	and ...hm, what WAS my GPU at the time? Some mid-range nVidia card I think.
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23:11	tumeninodes	well, looks like I'll have to refork :P
23:11	VanessaE	?
23:12	tumeninodes	when I did my last PR, I completely forgot to create a new branch for it
23:12	tumeninodes	IRL distractions
23:13	sofar	don't
23:13	sofar	please, don't
23:13	tumeninodes	I've used git revert once before but...
23:13	sofar	want to know how to fix it?
23:13	tumeninodes	yes please
23:13	sofar	ok so you're on the master branch
23:13	sofar	and you have how many commits that are not supposed to be there?
23:13	tumeninodes	I think 7
23:14	sofar	so you have: [master] - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
23:14	sofar	and you want:
23:14	sofar	[master] - 0
23:14	sofar	[special] - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
23:14	tumeninodes	yes... as of now it is 7 ahead and 1 behind
23:14	sofar	alright
23:14	sofar	first thing first
23:14	sofar	do `git branch special`
23:15	sofar	or whatever you want to name the branch
23:15	sofar	got that?
23:15	sofar	`git branch -a` should show you the new branch now
23:15	tumeninodes	yep Ill stick with special so you can use that ref
23:15	sofar	excellent
23:15	sofar	so now you have:
23:16	sofar	[master] - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
23:16	sofar	[special] - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
23:16	sofar	right?
23:16	sofar	try `git log special` and compare with `git log master`
23:17	sofar	ok so the next step is to go from
23:17	sofar	[master] - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
23:17	sofar	to
23:17	sofar	[master] - 0
23:17	tumeninodes	hold on a sec please
23:17	tumeninodes	I have this https://pastebin.com/L00SeqYg
23:18	sofar	that's obviously fine, it's what I said you'd get
23:18	tumeninodes	oh ok
23:19	sofar	please read `git log special` and check that your commits are there
23:19	tumeninodes	yes they are
23:19	sofar	great
23:19	sofar	next part is to remove them from master
23:20	tumeninodes	kill them with extreme prejudice
23:20	sofar	do: `git log master` and look for the first commit that has the words "origin/master" at the end of the sentence
23:21	sofar	make note of the commit message title
23:21	tumeninodes	hold on, I seem locked into that now
23:21	sofar	e.g. "Beds: Use mod textures instead of default_wood.png"
23:22	sofar	it may take a while if you're piping it to something (don't pipe git log)
23:22	tumeninodes	how do I get out of the log?
23:22	sofar	assuming PAGER=less, q
23:22	sofar	^C may also work
23:23	tumeninodes	that just gives me this line now: commit e66031f2222c4ac38c6264ff750874a7ecc6a783
23:24	sofar	what on earth are you doing to mess up git log?
23:24	tumeninodes	nothing I am stuck in it
23:24	sofar	^C not work?
23:25	tumeninodes	nah it just referenced to the commit where I changed from the copryright logo to (C)
23:25	tumeninodes	:P
23:25	tumeninodes	must have acte4d like a search filter
23:25	sofar	press 'q' then?
23:25	tumeninodes	ok thats it
23:25	sofar	what do you have PAGER set to?
23:26	sofar	if you don't know, it's `less`
23:26	tumeninodes	no idea my friend haha
23:26	sofar	exiting `less` == `q`
23:26	sofar	anyway
23:26	sofar	just do `git reset --hard HEAD~1`
23:26	sofar	until you no longer see your own special commits
23:26	sofar	should be 7x :)
23:27	sofar	after that, you can verify that you removed all commits with `git pull --rebase` which should just update and not have any more patches applied on top
23:27	tumeninodes	ahhhh so thats how rest --hard works
23:27	sofar	there's a few ways, this one I like because the 1 means '1 commit'
23:27	sofar	you can do 7 at once with HEAD~7
23:27	sofar	etc.
23:27	tumeninodes	nice
23:27	tumeninodes	thank you very much
23:28	sofar	last part
23:28	sofar	`git checkout special`
23:28	sofar	and then push that branch
23:28	sofar	to your fork on github
23:28	tumeninodes	so I want to push that to git push origin master, once I am done?
23:30	tumeninodes	ok now HEAD is at 58f6994 Liquid sources: Backface-cull sides and base. Remove unused special tiles, which is what I want
23:30	BillyS	Hmm
23:31	BillyS	Are textures still downloaded and loaded into memory from the server if they are specified in a texture pack?
23:33	sofar	tumeninodes: I don't know what remote is origin for you, that's what the push command depends on
23:33	sofar	BillyS: good question, IDK, you'd have to try and check
23:33	BillyS	kk
23:34	tumeninodes	my fork is origin, I use the MTG official for upstream
23:35	BillyS	Im trying to decrease MT memory usage
23:35	BillyS	And I don't really care about how it looks
23:35	BillyS	Even if it is all unknown nodes
23:37	tumeninodes	sofar, this is where I'm at... I want to be careful so I do not make a huge mess https://pastebin.com/8EGTrWEq
23:40	sofar	don't push 'origin master'
23:40	sofar	git push special
23:40	sofar	nothing more
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23:44	tumeninodes	omfg, wth am I doing wrong here? https://pastebin.com/mbfFQL2p
23:46	T4im	"git push origin master" would actually be correct if you wanted to push your local master to origins master
23:47	T4im	but first relax :D everything can be repaired in git once it is committed... well.. for 30 days or so anyway
23:48	tumeninodes	git gets frustrating some things I have been able to figure out for myself (such as revert) but this is where I get confused with it/git
23:49	T4im	you nearly never want git revert; it's to make a new commit that reverts another commit that is already fixed in history
23:50	tumeninodes	well it worked for me once :D
23:50	T4im	perhaps start by adopting the new behavior git is advertising you with :P
23:50	tumeninodes	I just need to get from where I am at currently, without creating a vblackhole and killing all of us
23:51	tumeninodes	cuz I'd be the guy to do that
23:52	T4im	ok so you are on your master branch, and made some commits to it?
23:52	tumeninodes	I did several resets to HEAD
23:52	tumeninodes	7 tba
23:53	tumeninodes	tbe
23:54	T4im	well you could just have reseted to the commit you wanted to begin with :p the ids are listed on the right in githubs history
23:54	T4im	:D
23:54	T4im	i assume you are at 5ccf965 or 58f6994?
23:54	tumeninodes	the latter
23:55	T4im	and you just want to update your origin with it? or first update with the newest modification from mtg?
23:55	tumeninodes	yes
23:56	T4im	then your "git push origin master" should probably work
23:56	tumeninodes	no, because those reverts were done in a new branch called 'special'
23:57	T4im	ah, you are not on master then?
23:57	tumeninodes	so actually I am on branch 'special',
23:57	tumeninodes	correct, sorry
23:57	T4im	well, "git push origin special:master" might work
23:57	T4im	unless you might need a force push
23:57	tumeninodes	that was the next thing I was thinking
23:58	tumeninodes	wait... magic happened... let me check if it was good or bad
23:59	tumeninodes	nope... now my origin master AND origin special are both 7 ahead and 1 behind
23:59	tumeninodes	... so, this is how people go insane...

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