Time  Nick          Message
02:25 sofar         nerzhul: oh wow, indeed
03:42 tumeninodes   sofar, how much work to update ITB to 5.0, or at least 0.4.17.1 ? :P
09:33 tenplus1      hi folks
10:40 tenplus1      hi fixer
11:03 tenplus1      hi calcul0n
11:03 calcul0n      hello
11:22 tenplus1      wb Vanessa
12:47 tenplus1      hi srifqi and aerozoic :P
12:48 srifqi        hi tenplus1
12:48 tenplus1      o/
12:49 * tenplus1    watches "The Story of Queen: Mercury Rising" documentary :) much better than new Bohemian movie
12:49 srifqi        What's that?
12:51 tenplus1      heh, is ok
12:51 srifqi        ok, nvm
12:53 aerozoic      wazup tenplus1 !
12:53 tenplus1      heyas, how's thigns
12:54 aerozoic      eh, server still lags like a turd :(
12:54 tenplus1      aw, that mods are to blame ?
12:55 aerozoic      i suspect it's the 20 year old laptop that is to blame
12:55 tenplus1      ohhh, you're running it off a laptop with hdd ?
12:55 aerozoic      yep
12:55 tenplus1      running windows ?
12:55 aerozoic      no, ubuntu server
12:55 tenplus1      ahh, how much memory has it got ?
12:56 tenplus1      hi T4im
12:56 nerzhul       hi tenplus1
12:56 aerozoic      i think 3GB, i forgot the command to check it
12:57 tenplus1      if you open terminal and do this:  sudo gedit /etc/sysctl.conf        ... and add this line to the end and save:   vm.swappiness = 10
12:57 tenplus1      you could also enable 'noatime' flag to speed up disk access
13:00 aerozoic      i thought that was a SSD thing?
13:01 tenplus1      works with hdd's also, it stops the last access time being written, so helps a lot
13:01 tenplus1      'trim' is an ssd thing
13:01 srifqi        last access is last modified?
13:01 tenplus1      last time file was read, stops it being written every time a file is accessed, it's not needed
13:04 srifqi        it exists? i only know last modified.
13:04 T4im          hey :)
13:05 tenplus1      this should help: https://www.howtoforge.com/reducing-disk-io-by-mounting-partitions-with-noatime
13:05 T4im          you should not really do "sudo gedit" because that opens gedit as root; rather do "SUDO_EDITOR=gedit sudoedit /etc/sysctl.conf"
13:06 tenplus1      :P
13:06 T4im          i suggest an alias to "sudogedit" for simplicity :p
13:08 T4im          the atime thing is a good tip tho :D
13:08 tenplus1      and the vm.swappiness stops linux accessing virtual memory (which is slow) until it's needed
13:13 aerozoic      is noatime also in sysctl.conf?
13:14 tenplus1      use the link above to add noatime, it's added in /etc/fstab but you have to be careful editing that one
13:14 aerozoic      oh ok
13:15 aerozoic      the swappiness edit requires a restart to take effect?
13:15 tenplus1      yes
13:16 aerozoic      it's time for a server backup anyway :)
13:16 tenplus1      :D
13:18 T4im          "sysctl vm.swappiness=10" should take immediate effect
13:22 Calinou       adding noatime isn't very useful today
13:22 tenplus1      hi Cal
13:22 Calinou       hi :)
13:23 T4im          hey :) and why not? :o
13:23 tenplus1      for mechanical drives it does speed up file access
13:23 tenplus1      for ssd's it's not too much different
13:23 T4im          well, you want to avoid unnecessary writes to ssd
13:23 T4im          just for longlivity
13:23 tenplus1      true
13:26 nerzhul       hi tenplus1
13:26 nerzhul       hi Calinou
13:26 tenplus1      hi nerzhul
13:26 nerzhul       how are you ?
13:26 tenplus1      good ta :) wondering what traps to add to lucky blocks :PPP you ?
13:26 Calinou       SSDs can stand a lot more writes thank you think
13:26 Calinou       most SSD failures are due to the controller, not the NAND
13:27 Calinou       a few more hundred kilobytes a day won't kill it :)
13:27 nerzhul       i'm ill, but maybe i can push to MT at a point, i play WoW BFA too much haha
13:27 nerzhul       too many achivements to do
13:27 tenplus1      gotta collect 'em all :D
14:15 tenplus1      laters folks :D
16:14 Fixer         GOTTA FIX THE MINETEST_GAME ALL]
16:14 Fixer         nerzhul: fuck minetest, start writing fully complaint minecraft beta 1.7.3 open source clone with blackjack and hookers
16:15 Fixer         Calinou: went SSD way, shit7/10 is not usable on HDDs
16:22 nerzhul       Fixer: hmm okay, i dont' care about minetest_game
16:22 Fixer         B U S T E D
16:24 Shara         Fixer: What is fixing MTG really?
16:24 Fixer         everyone sees it differently
16:24 Shara         That's the problem
16:25 Shara         Easier to make a new game
16:25 Shara         Unless you think you can fix the people maybe
16:25 Fixer         other worries me
16:25 Fixer         where are new people?
16:26 Shara         Why does this problem need new people?
16:26 Fixer         people tend to leave/afkforever/etc
16:26 Shara         Still not seeing relevance to this
16:27 Shara         Unless you think none of the people around at the moment are capable of making a game
16:28 Fixer         most of us are procrastinators (especially me)
16:29 aerozoic      Fixer has a point, MT is about dead. 5.0 will be the last major release and i predict it won't get past 5.3
16:31 Shara         Oh, so we switched from disscussing MTG to MT now?
16:31 rubenwardy    5.0 being the last major release wouldn't be a problem
16:32 rubenwardy    major releases are interruptive
16:32 rubenwardy    they're breaking
16:32 rubenwardy    there's still massive amounts of interest in using MT for education
16:32 rubenwardy    and still lots of users on Android
16:33 rubenwardy    so really those can be capitalised on somehow to get more contributors
16:34 aerozoic      agreed  :)
16:34 VanessaE      MT about dead? :(
16:35 rubenwardy    there's new users joining the discord all the time. New users don't like IRC or even the forums
16:35 rubenwardy    well, maybe not all the time
16:35 rubenwardy    development has been less active since hmmmm left
16:36 rubenwardy    and voxel games are out of fashion
16:36 rubenwardy    but that doesn't mean that you should write a rip off
16:36 rubenwardy    leave that to Mineclone 2
16:38 Fixer         i mean, it is not trolling or smth
16:38 Fixer         look at that this way
16:39 Fixer         what happens if Paramat finds a job, and for example, Shara decides to have 10 kids or whatever, BOOM (tetri.. MTG is dead)
16:39 rubenwardy    well, death to MTG imo
16:39 rubenwardy    ;)
16:39 VanessaE      hell no.
16:40 VanessaE      MT needs good base content against which to build mods.
16:40 Fixer         my reasoning, more contributors (they don't need to be active all the time) - more chance to keep project alive
16:40 Shara         Fixer: ten? Come on really :P
16:40 Fixer         if you have, say 10 contributers from time to time and 20... that will be different amount of commits
16:40 rubenwardy    Mods are boring
16:41 rubenwardy    Games are more fun
16:41 rubenwardy    http://twitter.com/Ezhhara
16:41 VanessaE      Shara: better stock-up on contraceptives then eh? :)
16:41 Shara         MTG is fine as a modding base as it is, but the odds of it ever becoming a worthy game in its own right are shrinking.... too hard to get stuff in
16:41 VanessaE      some of us can't code whole games.
16:41 Fixer         maybe Shara will get bored of minetest or changes life-style or whatever, does not matter
16:41 Shara         VanessaE: that's why you build a team
16:41 Fixer         are there new people who will have bright eyes to pick this up, to contribute?
16:41 Fixer         I have even minecraft has problems with that
16:41 Fixer         wtf i wrote
16:42 Fixer         I feel, even minecraft has problems with that*
16:42 VanessaE      Shara: can't build a team if everyone is infected with NIH-syndrome.
16:42 rubenwardy    lol
16:43 rubenwardy    well, maybe we could recruit some people at live ;)
16:43 Shara         a lot of things need reinventing
16:43 Fixer         also, if you have easy entry into DEV, people may have more feel to stay with it (?)
16:43 Shara         Trying to work on MTG has shown me it's got a huge number of problems
16:43 benrob0329    Things that need to be redone never are, and things that don't need to be redone are redone all the time. (This is software dev in general though)
16:44 VanessaE      you know, you COULD just merge mtg with the engine (that is, as a batch of Lua standard components, akin to "builtin")
16:44 Fixer         i'm okay with MTG blocks, textures and sounds (mostly), but after that I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS GOING ON
16:44 Shara         VanessaE: uhm, no thanks.
16:44 Fixer         ElonToweleeMusk.png
16:44 VanessaE      that would imho reduce the incentive to treat mtg AS a game....
16:44 benrob0329    I think we need to just bundle one other game with 5,0
16:44 Shara         Sure, but then you lump people with that stuff even when they don't want it
16:45 benrob0329    just one
16:45 rubenwardy    Shara: hidden worlds done by december ;)
16:45 Shara         rubenwardy: lol
16:45 rubenwardy    oh god
16:45 benrob0329    choose a decent one, have the community vote on it, just pick one
16:45 VanessaE      Shara: so?  they could turn stuff off by config...
16:45 Shara         benrob0329: when the community says what games they want made officially, they typical don't think very far about what that means
16:45 Fixer         btw, I've noticed MT modding community received some new steam with some really nice projects
16:45 Shara         new steam?
16:45 benrob0329    Shara, I suppose that is true
16:46 Shara         more activity?
16:46 Fixer         yes
16:46 benrob0329    I mean, it could still be developed by the main dev of said game
16:46 Shara         Any new official game needs an active team, not just one person
16:46 VanessaE      Shara: again, NIH.
16:46 Shara         Otherwise if that one person gets hit by a bus tomorrow... dead game
16:47 VanessaE      everyone has their own idea of the perfect game
16:47 Fixer         Shara and Paramat hit by a wedding... dead game
16:47 Shara         Fixer: MTG is not a game :)
16:47 * benrob0329  backs out of the discussion, figures he can work on something instead :P
16:47 Fixer         and then rubenwardy goes to work for that mc-related thiny with macbooks
16:48 Fixer         and I hate macbooks and apple
16:48 Shara         Anyway, if anyone wants to help with an actual real attempt to make a game, let me know sometime :)
16:48 VanessaE      benrob0329:  I have a whole TODO full of stuff that needs done in some of my mods.....  want a piece? :P
16:48 Fixer         okay!
16:48 rubenwardy    VanessaE: they do, but then you have a project leader like Shara who has the canonical idea
16:48 VanessaE      *shrug*
16:49 Fixer         i'm more worried about IBM-RH thing right now
16:49 Fixer         can be more serious than mt problem
16:49 VanessaE      oh who cares about that BS
16:49 benrob0329    I don't think its too bad, IBM isn't a terrible company from what I can tell
16:49 VanessaE      there's dozens of hardware manufacturers and hundreds of distros.
16:49 benrob0329    Redhat is probably happy to have the extra funding
16:50 Fixer         VanessaE: say, IBM focuses even more on cloud, and drops side contribs to OSS from RH, etc
16:50 benrob0329    IBM is probably happy to have the dev team
16:50 benrob0329    IBM has supported Linux for years though
16:50 Fixer         just kernel?
16:50 VanessaE      Fixer: and if they stop said contributions, so?
16:51 benrob0329    Fixer, more marketing is what I'm referring to, but it is something
16:51 Fixer         VanessaE: then we will have less contributions (Captain Obvious to the rescue)
16:51 Fixer         Intel's ClearLinux is for cloud too?
16:51 VanessaE      Fixer: which, ultimately, will have what effect in reality?  practically none, I think.  it's not like IBM's coders are the only ones contributing to Linux....
16:52 Fixer         VanessaE: you will have less features, regressions, fixes, etc in OSS programs they contributed too
16:52 Fixer         to*
16:52 VanessaE      features?  blah.
16:52 VanessaE      everything I use has *enough* features.
16:53 benrob0329    "features" at times
16:53 VanessaE      besides,
16:53 VanessaE      it's not like IBM's coders suddenly cease to exist.  whatever happened to contributing IN YOUR SPARE TIME?
16:53 Fixer         VanessaE: BUT BUT WE WILL MAKE IT BETTER (................ and also rewrite few times just for fun, who needs stability these days?)
16:53 VanessaE      You know, like in the old days?
16:54 Fixer         TIME TO SYSTEMD/2
16:54 VanessaE      oh wsair
16:54 VanessaE      oh wait...
16:54 VanessaE      time is money
16:54 Fixer         oh, yeeeeees, PERFECT
16:54 VanessaE      even time you'd spend in leisure.
16:54 Fixer         best meme
16:54 VanessaE      every G*d damned fucking line of code/second spent coding is somehow worth some amount of money.
16:55 VanessaE      sorry, I forgot.
16:55 Fixer         yet linux env is been rewritten like crazy
16:56 Fixer         ifconfig - replaced, sysvinit - replaced, policykit or whatever the Kit-crap, replaced, systemd replaces some parts here and there
16:56 Fixer         not saying it is bad
16:56 benrob0329    ifconfig has been dead for years tho
16:56 Fixer         it adds to instability somewhat
16:56 Fixer         people will need to relearn
16:57 Fixer         and they will reeeee because this utility was used for 40 years, and now it is not, ree
16:57 benrob0329    personally I think out entire networking stack is a mess
16:57 Fixer         linux ecosystem always felt weird
16:58 Fixer         it was kernel with glued everything
16:58 Fixer         you want linux with cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeze? sure thing
16:58 Fixer         maybe it is good
16:58 benrob0329    Firmware -> Drivers -> WPA_Supplicant -> DHCPD -> Network Manager -> DE's Frontend
16:58 benrob0329    maybe systemd-networkd manages all of the somewhere on the stack
16:58 benrob0329    or maybe whatever other daemon a distro makes
16:59 Fixer         remember that clusterfuck with gpu drivers, accelereation, xconf editing, that EXA or whatever shit? Some gallium something too, rewritten few times just to be sure
16:59 Fixer         and Wayland is older then sofar kids combined I believe
16:59 Fixer         than*
16:59 benrob0329    now everyone (except nvidia) uses the Direct Render Manager stack
16:59 benrob0329    which is nice because Framebuffers are a thing again
16:59 Fixer         and it is not even stable as of now
16:59 benrob0329    I'm not so sure about that
16:59 Fixer         i remember trying out framebuffer thingy in 2005 or so
17:00 Fixer         was interesting
17:00 Fixer         was running elinks or something in 1024x768 console
17:00 Fixer         noice
17:00 benrob0329    I can play MPV videos on my laptop with no X
17:00 benrob0329    full 1080p
17:00 Fixer         yeah, this can have some neat uses
17:01 Fixer         i never understood very complex Xserver + graphics stack thing
17:01 benrob0329    Xorg runs atop DRI now, most of the time
17:01 benrob0329    Nvidia (as usual) is dragging their feet
17:05 VanessaE      all I know for sure is this:  MT dev, especially MTG, is too confined.  too restricted.  I dare say too elite.  there are not enough people being let in, and it has a bad rep regarding "new and improved".  and if there's one thing I've learned from MY userbase (my servers):  they want new.
17:05 VanessaE      (where "let in" == given commit access to the repos)
17:06 VanessaE      you want more development activity?  fix that ^
17:17 sofar         everlasting struggle
17:17 sofar         people want change but don't vote^W^Wwrite patches
17:17 VanessaE      not "change"
17:17 VanessaE      "new"
17:17 sofar         new what?
17:18 VanessaE      well for example,
17:18 VanessaE      when I launched my skyblock server a few weeks ago, activity went through the roof.  more on that one than on all others combined at any time in the previous months.
17:18 VanessaE      eventually the novelty wore off though
17:19 VanessaE      but it's still more popular than my other.
17:19 VanessaE      others*
17:19 VanessaE      but,
17:19 VanessaE      it's based on all the same stuff we've all gotten accustomed to
17:19 VanessaE      cobble.. dirt... etc
17:20 VanessaE      but how the game is played is of course different.
17:20 VanessaE      but it was a new server that made it popular (yes, I Know there are a few other skyblocks out there).
17:21 VanessaE      of course difficult gameplay probably helps too :P
17:21 VanessaE      sorry if I'm talking in circles, but you get the idea.
17:21 sofar         I fail to see a problem
17:22 VanessaE      the prob is MTG is getting stale?
17:22 sofar         oh, mtg, I thought this was in general about mt
17:22 VanessaE      look at that thread Krock and I started regarding the glass door
17:22 * sofar       hands VanessaE soap box material
17:23 VanessaE      (nevermind about the doors themselves, look at the other commentary)
17:23 * VanessaE    slides the soapbox over to the sidee.
17:23 Shara         Well, I want to change the textures, it just needs to remain consistent with the other textures
17:24 Shara         But your arguments just seem to be making the case for games other than MTG
17:24 sofar         and we all applaud that :)
17:24 * sofar       claps yaaay
17:24 Shara         Lol
17:25 VanessaE      Shara: well no, that's not my intent.  to be sure, that IS one possible answer
17:25 Shara         I was actually trying to add glass to HW, but I found issues with the drawtypes that really annoy me
17:25 VanessaE      HW?
17:25 Shara         Hidden Worlds
17:25 VanessaE      oh
17:25 Shara         Game that me and a few others here are working on
17:26 VanessaE      but again,
17:26 Shara         And by others I mean... uhm, I think 9 people made actual contributions so far
17:26 VanessaE      look at the door texture PR.  forget about the door texture itself and focus on the *rest* of the discussion.
17:27 Shara         People disagree on things too often. This is known.
17:27 VanessaE      or I"ll condense it: why are MT/MTG devs so afraid of alpha?  After what is it, 10 years, MT still doesn't handle alpha entirely properly?  THAT's the kind of crap I'm talking about.
17:27 Shara         But it's a fact that a lot of people don't like change, even when it's small. I still remember watching players freak out about small texture changes (snow comes to mind) on multiple servers
17:28 Shara         VanessaE: I'm not.. because here's the secret.. default glass already has flickering issues!
17:28 VanessaE      and why does it flicker?
17:28 VanessaE      what's the underlying issue?
17:28 Shara         glasslike_framed seems to show the back texture, where as glasslike does not
17:28 VanessaE      the problem is lack of Z sorting.
17:28 Shara         so place glasslike against something, and you get z fighting
17:28 Shara         And this is before we get into alpha
17:29 Shara         The real problem with alpha is perhaps what happens with water
17:29 VanessaE      you're talking about Z fighting
17:29 VanessaE      not the same problem
17:29 Shara         You can't see the node when it's under water and you're not
17:29 * Shara       shrugs
17:29 Shara         The point is there are problems
17:29 VanessaE      two different problems with thew same solution
17:29 VanessaE      Z sorting is a technique to that's existed for HOW long?
17:29 Shara         Then find someone who can fix them. I can't. I would if I had that expertise.
17:30 VanessaE      there are people in MT who can fix them
17:30 Shara         But I disagree with the "flickering" being a reason not to use alpha for glass... because glass already flickers
17:31 VanessaE      the problem is the same one I have been complaining about since forever -- coding effort being poured into the wrong things.
17:31 Shara         Right, how to fix that?
17:31 VanessaE      I don't knowe.
17:31 VanessaE      -e
17:31 Shara         Yea, that's the wall I slam into as well, because you can't get people to code anything other than what they want to really.
17:31 VanessaE      that's the kind of problem that can probably only be solved with a good management, which we don't have.
17:32 Shara         What you mean is we don't have any management
17:32 VanessaE      *good* managemnt.
17:32 Shara         Heh
17:32 VanessaE      well yeah I guess so
17:32 VanessaE      I was trying to be polite.
17:32 VanessaE      you know how I hate to step on peoples' toes or shit on their effort
17:32 VanessaE      efforts*
17:32 Shara         I prefer to say it as I see it, and I don't mean offence to anyone by it.
17:33 Shara         No one is obligated to work on MT, in any specific role or at any level after all.
17:33 VanessaE      I rarely mean to offend, but in this case I guess some offense is unavoidable.
17:33 VanessaE      yes, sure
17:34 VanessaE      but, when you sit down at the keyboard to hack on something, do you not have at least some idea in the back of your mind "I really ought to fix that, that, and that first, but THIS is more interesting?
17:34 VanessaE      "
17:35 Shara         Me personally? Yes. But I'm still constrained by my abilities and to an extent what I do/don't enjoy is going to motivate what things I choose
17:35 VanessaE      sure./
17:35 Shara         There's always more I can think of that I can do and only so much time...
17:35 VanessaE      but let's assume you have the skills to fix "that, that and that" as well as "this".
17:36 Shara         And if the most important one of those is also the most time consuming and annoying thing...?
17:37 VanessaE      well, I can't speak for what you enjoy of course, but logically, whether something is complex or not really shouldn't enter into the equation
17:37 Shara         time consuming or annoying doesn't have to mean complex
17:38 Shara         It's not about me anyway. It's about the people who could do the fixes we need
17:38 Shara         I'd love to know how to motivate them. But I don't.
17:39 VanessaE      when I say "really ought to fix", I refer to issues that you know annoy others, and I'm assuming "this" is either a new feature or some corner case that few people run into compared to one of the "that" items.
17:39 Shara         I can only speak for me personally, and I do try and fix problems.
17:40 VanessaE      when I open my editor, the first thing I do is look at my TODO and see if there's anything I can fix, before I start coding something new (not counting things I'm gonna fix anyway during that session)
17:40 VanessaE      (but my own coding skills are kinda "meh" anymore)
17:41 Shara         All these alpha issues are one of the things that annoy me most. They always have been (my very first mod was working with coloured glass...)
17:42 Shara         I'd fix it if I could, and I'm sure you would as well. But what matters is who could and how to get them to ...
17:42 VanessaE      yeah
17:43 VanessaE      when I look at my mods lately, for some of them I'm the only one doing anything at all
17:43 VanessaE      and that's more than a little discouraging
17:43 Shara         well, that's almost always been the norm for me, with a couple of exceptions
17:43 GreenDimond   FWIW most of us are the only ones working on our mods.
17:44 VanessaE      yeah.
17:44 Shara         I will occasionally write something with one other specific person (not always the same one) because I enjoy having someone to work with on that level and to run through ideas with, but if I depended on that I wouldn't have ever got started
17:44 VanessaE      maybe I'm just getting tired.
17:45 Shara         HW is the first time I've worked with a larger group than that for any of my own MT projects
17:47 rubenwardy    VanessaE: I'd have no idea where to start, and I'd probably do it wrong anyway
17:47 rubenwardy    The wrong fix is sometimes worse than no fix
17:47 * VanessaE    shrugs
17:48 VanessaE      isn't the correction to just fix what you can fix, then?
17:48 VanessaE      correct*
17:48 VanessaE      gah, my grammar....
17:48 Shara         :D
17:48 VanessaE      correct action ***
17:50 rubenwardy    GreenDimond: I've had a lot of contributors to my mods over the years
17:50 rubenwardy    but as in most projects, the founder is the biggest contributor
17:50 rubenwardy    even in Minetest
17:50 rubenwardy    celeron55 is still the top contributor
17:52 Shara         Roughly 3/4 of HW commits are me, so yea, it's expected
17:52 rubenwardy    possibly the only exception is Linux
17:52 Shara         At this rate, HW will have more commits than MTG by the time it's released as well :D
17:52 rubenwardy    the #1 is a redhat guy
17:52 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome
17:53 VanessaE      heh
17:58 luk3yx        All those other issue references.
18:01 VanessaE      here's another example btw:  why exactly did mtg import gold, tin, bronze, etc. from moreores, but not silver and mithril?
18:02 VanessaE      what's the logic/rationale for continuing to leave them out>
18:02 VanessaE      ?
18:14 Shara         VanessaE: I don't know and I wish it hadn't
18:14 VanessaE      hadn't imported those metals, or hadn't left-out the last two?
18:15 Shara         First option
18:15 Shara         MTG has no good use for extra metals
18:15 VanessaE      it doesn't need to have.
18:15 VanessaE      it's supposed to be a modding base.  that means providing a set of materials other mods can use.
18:15 Shara         Is it?
18:15 VanessaE      yep.,
18:16 Shara         Is that official anywhere?
18:16 T4im          having silver when you already have gold seems reasonable; but is mithtril not a Lord of the rings thing?
18:16 Shara         I think that's what it should be, but not one ever seems to agree
18:16 VanessaE      I'm not sure, but that's been the overarching theme of mtg for a while
18:16 Shara         T4im: part of my issue
18:16 VanessaE      T4im: I don't know what its origin is.
18:16 Shara         It's a made up metal either way
18:17 Shara         Not everyone wants the base their built on to have fantasy elements
18:17 VanessaE      Shara: mese, anyone?
18:17 T4im          and one that may be inconsistent in relationship to diamonds in usage of tools and armor
18:17 Shara         That's an MT specific material though
18:17 Krock         o/ another moe avatar for sfan5. Nice ^^
18:17 VanessaE      but it's still fantasy.
18:18 VanessaE      mithril could be imported and given a new name (plus an alias of course).
18:18 sfan5         :3
18:18 Shara         mithril is recognisable for being in lot sof high fantasy whatevers, whereas mese could be anything
18:18 Shara         lots of*
18:18 T4im          seems there are no reasons to leave out silver tho
18:18 T4im          progress? :)
18:18 VanessaE      Shara: mese is still fantasy.  it may as well be Unobtanium :P
18:19 VanessaE      or Adamantium
18:19 VanessaE      or Vibranium :P
18:19 Shara         Anyway, using this logic, we may as well add everything from every mod ever to MTG
18:19 rubenwardy    minetest is a shit modding base
18:19 VanessaE      given how it's used in-game
18:19 Shara         Because someone might want it in the modding base
18:19 VanessaE      nonono
18:19 VanessaE      BASE is the key word.
18:19 Flitzpiepe    Hello everyone. Is there a use for silver if there is no technics-mod installed?
18:19 Shara         VanessaE: I'd personally like a modding base that has willow trees.
18:19 luk3yx        Shara: Is your HW subgame open-source yet?
18:19 VanessaE      is a home decor kitchen cabinet a base material?  No.  but the wood it's made from is.
18:20 rubenwardy    also, the modding base thing died around 0.4.7
18:20 VanessaE      rubenwardy: not really.  it's still very much alive.
18:20 rubenwardy    it was only one release which was frozen and "a base for modding"
18:20 rubenwardy    then the next was merged in
18:20 rubenwardy    now one of the aims is to be moddable
18:20 Shara         luk3yx: it's licensed as such, but in a hidden repo until we get a bit further. Feel free to PM if you'd like to get involved
18:21 luk3yx        Not sure what I'd help with though.
18:21 VanessaE      Shara: what I'm saying is that mtg should have things like metal bars (not ingots, think rebar), spools of wire, a "lock" item, things like that.
18:21 VanessaE      rubenwardy: ^
18:21 Shara         VanessaE: why though? Not every game is going to have any use for these things
18:22 VanessaE      no, but not every game has a use for dirt either.
18:22 T4im          plastic tbh
18:22 Shara         Maybe while you want silver and find it useful, I want rubies and emeralds
18:22 VanessaE      in fact, dirt is probably the least-utilized material in mtg
18:22 VanessaE      T4im: homedecor's plastic process ftw :)
18:23 rubenwardy    dirt populates like 90% of the surface
18:23 T4im          it'd be quickly used in a lot of recipes
18:23 VanessaE      rubenwardy: and is used in how many recipes, compared to let's say, cobble?
18:23 T4im          although the oil's burn value needs to be seriously nerfed
18:23 Shara         Recipe use is hardly onlu use
18:23 Shara         only*
18:23 rubenwardy    ^
18:23 Shara         It's used in.. every farming mod ever?
18:23 VanessaE      T4im: 6 leaves -> oil -> wax -> plastic sheet.
18:23 T4im          i know
18:24 VanessaE      Shara: what is?
18:24 Shara         Dirt :P
18:24 VanessaE      Shara: um.. no.  you're thinking of the hoe.
18:24 VanessaE      the dirt just sits there once you hoe it.
18:24 VanessaE      (well it turns wet of course)
18:24 Shara         Oh, so you'd hoe what.. air?
18:24 VanessaE      but you don't actually USE it.
18:24 Shara         Dirt is a pretty vital component.
18:25 T4im          how would you use dirt? O_o
18:25 VanessaE      you don't for example, hoe the dirt and then dig it and use it in a recipe, do you?
18:25 Shara         You don't have to directly use a thing for it to be useful.
18:25 VanessaE      that's what I mean by "use" in this contexty.
18:25 VanessaE      I don't care what can be done TO an item, necessarilyh.
18:25 Shara         And as I said: Recipe use is hardly only use
18:25 GreenDimond   -y -h
18:26 VanessaE      I care what the item can be actively used IN, i.e. a recipe, or cooked into something that can be.
18:26 VanessaE      get what I mean?
18:26 Shara         I get what you mean, but I disagree with it being the only thing of importance when deciding if an item belongs in a modding base
18:26 VanessaE      nono
18:27 VanessaE      I'm just saying that dirt is, by that metric, the least-useful item in the game
18:27 Shara         And I'm saying it's a stupid metric :)
18:27 VanessaE      ok fine
18:27 VanessaE      you can hoe it and grow stuff on it.
18:27 VanessaE      and build an ugly-ass n00bhut with it.
18:27 VanessaE      what else?
18:28 Shara         I'm not even sure what the point of this discussion is anymore.
18:28 Shara         Make a PR to remove dirt from MTG already? :D
18:28 VanessaE      answer the question :)
18:28 Shara         What more do you want to do with it?
18:28 VanessaE      I'm not saying I want to do more with it.
18:28 VanessaE      I'm asking if you know of any other uses sans mods.
18:29 Shara         It's also vital to plant growth mechanics beyond farming, and creating an even slightly realistic mapgen
18:29 Shara         What do you want trees to grow from?
18:29 rubenwardy    mithril
18:29 VanessaE      ok. so it's terrain.   I thought that was kinda obvious :)
18:29 Shara         VanessaE: it's use is obvious!
18:30 VanessaE      now consider iron.  when made into steel, it makes tools.  added to a chest, it becomes a lock.
18:30 VanessaE      right?
18:30 Shara         But okay, you submit the PR to remove dirt, and rubenwardy can do one adding mithril and making trees grow from that, then we're sorted?
18:30 Shara         VanessaE: nono
18:30 Shara         iron can be made into an ingot. That's it.
18:30 Shara         May as well make a shop that sells ingots directly and have done.
18:30 VanessaE      I'm equating iron to steel here.
18:30 VanessaE      but,
18:31 VanessaE      suppose now you have a spool of wire like the one homedecor uses.
18:31 VanessaE      (as part of mtg, hypothetically)
18:32 Shara         But nothing in MTG needs wire
18:32 VanessaE      I know.
18:32 VanessaE      but,
18:32 VanessaE      what all can you do with wire?  think theoretical, what items could you add via a mod that would most logically be made from wire?
18:33 Shara         Well again, make a PR, you only need two devs to agree.
18:33 VanessaE      two things that come to mind are HD's fences, or let's say wire plus wheat = a bale of hay.
18:34 VanessaE      I'd make PRs but why bother?  the idea's dead before I even put it into code.
18:34 rubenwardy    bales usually use string
18:34 VanessaE      rubenwardy: nope.
18:34 rubenwardy    commonly plastic-derived
18:34 VanessaE      not where I grew up.
18:34 VanessaE      there's a reason we called it "baling wire".
18:34 rubenwardy    wire's a bit mad
18:34 Shara         So now MTG needs region-specific hay-bale ties?
18:34 VanessaE      think square bales, not the big round ones.
18:35 VanessaE      Shara: nonono you're not getting it.
18:35 Shara         I am getting it; I'm just not agreeing with it.
18:35 VanessaE      Shara: I'm speaking hypothetically but if you prefer something more universal, how about rebar.
18:37 Shara         Can we just agree on disagreeing?
18:39 Shara         I already find it difficult to be motivated to do much for MTG.
18:39 VanessaE      I can agree to disagree, but you know perfectly well that I have a point.
18:41 VanessaE      T4im: so.... plastic PR when? :)
18:42 Shara         You have many points, and I agree with some but not all of them
18:42 Shara         I'd like MTG to be a good modding base, but when the approach to that is filling it with items MTG itself doesn't use... I can't agree there
18:43 VanessaE      you DO know why I suggest this right?
18:44 Shara         I don't really want to make any assumptions at this point
18:45 VanessaE      well, it's because no one likes the duplication problems we have, and putting such things into some kind of "basic materials" mod just means one more thing for mods to depend on that "didn't come with the game"
18:45 Shara         Yes, but that has the matching problem that no one likes content/clutter they have no use for
18:46 VanessaE      sure.
18:47 VanessaE      on the other hand, whatever happened to just ignoring items you have no use for?
18:48 Shara         VanessaE: not everyone wants clutter
18:48 Shara         I shouldn't need to ignore things I don't want
18:48 Shara         Not to mention players crafting them then asking me what use it has... then after that getting nagry they wasted resources?
18:49 Shara         If you start a crafting chain there's an implication there is a point to it and it goes somewhere
18:49 Shara         angry*
18:49 VanessaE      perhaps, but which is better? to have some clutter because of things you don't need, or to need something you don't have because someone doesn't want to install the mod that provides it?
18:49 Shara         This is really basic gameplay development...
18:49 rubenwardy    the former, definitely
18:49 Shara         They should install the mods they need
18:50 rubenwardy    I am very opposed to this idea
18:50 rubenwardy    wait, I misread
18:50 rubenwardy    the former is definitely worse
18:51 rubenwardy    with
18:51 VanessaE      rubenwardy:  ok.  so I guess that means I should submit a PR to remove walls, gates, and xpanes....
18:51 rubenwardy    with CDB, it will be much easier to find dependencies
18:51 VanessaE      because I have no use for those and they're standard components.
18:51 rubenwardy    those all have uses
18:51 rubenwardy    would be better to remove vessels
18:51 rubenwardy    ;)
18:51 VanessaE      do they?
18:52 * tumeninodes walks in the middle convo, and makes straight for the kitchen, hopefully unnoticed
18:53 VanessaE      vessels has an interesting use actually - stacked two-high, a vessels shelf looks like one of those soda refrigerators you find at the check-out line at a grocery store.
18:53 VanessaE      tumeninodes: grab me a pizza while you're in there?
18:53 VanessaE      :)
18:54 tumeninodes   :D
18:54 tumeninodes   I can't... no one installed the pizza mod
18:54 tumeninodes   :P
18:54 VanessaE      haha
18:54 Shara         I'd ask for tea, but no one even wrote that mod to begin with :(
18:55 Shara         VanessaE: why does homedecor not have a teapot?
18:55 VanessaE      food mod has tea doesn't it?
18:55 tumeninodes   I know I saw a tea mod once
18:55 VanessaE      as for a HD teapot?  never thought about it.  it's a good idea though.
18:55 VanessaE      PR's welcomd
18:55 VanessaE      PR's welcome*
18:55 Shara         If I could make models, I would...
18:55 tumeninodes   call NathanS
18:56 Shara         NathanS21!!! Save us please!
18:56 Shara         But yea, that is much wanted by me and my players.
18:56 VanessaE      make it a glass carafe.  add some metal to it, it becomes a teapot.  or, add some other items, it becomes a coffee maker :)
18:57 VanessaE      oh wait, that would make it another item to cause "clutter"
18:57 VanessaE      :)
18:57 tumeninodes   I am stunned no one has made a juicer mod
18:57 Shara         VanessaE: it's not MTG though :)
18:57 Shara         And would fit very well in homedecor
18:57 VanessaE      Shara: pfft.  may as well be, like 99% of servers have homedecor :)
18:57 Shara         But I'd be totally fine with it as a separate mod
18:58 tumeninodes   we could make apple juice, orange juice, ... banananana juice
18:58 VanessaE      tumeninodes: what, no smoothies?
18:58 Shara         tumeninodes: only if you design me a banananana tree
18:58 VanessaE      (we DO have ice)
18:58 tumeninodes   one banananana smoothie tree, coming up
18:59 Shara         :)
18:59 VanessaE      Shara: I'd separate-out homedecor's base materials (like wire, plastic, metal strips, etc) into a "basic_materials" mod, but who would use it?
18:59 tumeninodes   I just want someone to put the bed PR through... cuz I kinda forgot to set up a new branch when I did it :/
18:59 T4im          homedecor would; so practically every server, VanessaE, or not? :x
18:59 Shara         VanessaE: I'd see that as good... if they were being used by other mods
18:59 VanessaE      Shara: BINGO.
19:00 VanessaE      you JUST hit on the problem.
19:00 rubenwardy    it's better to have separate mods
19:00 rubenwardy    eg: plastic, metalworks
19:00 T4im          pipeworks would probably be the first
19:00 Shara         I like separation and havign lots of smaller mods
19:00 rubenwardy    anyway
19:00 T4im          technic, too
19:00 rubenwardy    food solved this problem years ago
19:00 VanessaE      rubenwardy: again, who would use it?
19:00 Shara         DOesn't mean you should automatically drop those into MTG
19:00 VanessaE      s/it/them/
19:01 rubenwardy    https://github.com/rubenwardy/food/blob/master/food_basic/support.lua#L14
19:01 VanessaE      Shara:  of course not.  bit getting people to use a "library" or two of base materials is orders of magnitude easier if they don't have to seek it/them out.
19:01 VanessaE      but*
19:01 rubenwardy    again, CDB
19:02 VanessaE      ...doesn't work in 0.4.x
19:02 VanessaE      and 5.0.0 isn't out
19:02 tumeninodes   should be individual material mods (basic materials), then there would be mods which would depend on those but add items/objects people would choose based on their own preference
19:02 rubenwardy    it works in 0.4.x
19:02 rubenwardy    it's a HTTP API
19:03 rubenwardy    you could make a CLI for it
19:03 VanessaE      rubenwardy: er...no mod store in 0.4.x
19:03 VanessaE      if 5.0.0 was already out and 0.4.x were dead, I would agree with your premise
19:03 tumeninodes   mapgen items should be exclusive to mapgen (nature stuff) like trees, stone, dirt, then have individual mods for manmade materials from those
19:03 VanessaE      but right now that just is not reality
19:03 rubenwardy    CDB is a website
19:03 rubenwardy    and a HTTP API
19:03 VanessaE      yeah I know that
19:03 rubenwardy    the mod store is just a client for it
19:03 rubenwardy    you could make a CLI program to manage it
19:03 VanessaE      but what use is *API* to an end user?
19:03 rubenwardy    and it would be great to have anyway
19:03 VanessaE      "end user"
19:03 rubenwardy    as adding that to minetest would be a pain
19:04 rubenwardy    end users shouldn't use 0.4.x for much longer
19:04 VanessaE      i.e. someone who doesn't know a text editor from a hole in the wall
19:05 VanessaE      *checks server list*   12 entries for "5.0.0" out of 201 servers.
19:05 rubenwardy    anyway
19:05 tumeninodes   wall editors, and text holes
19:05 rubenwardy    I have coursework
19:05 VanessaE      yep, not even close.
19:05 rubenwardy    that's because it's not released *yet*
19:05 VanessaE      exactl
19:07 VanessaE      I'm talking about what we have to deal with right now, not 2 years from now when 5.0.1 goes out the door.
19:08 rubenwardy    if 5.0.0 is in dec/jan, then 5.0.1 will be march-ish
19:08 VanessaE      sarcasm, jeez
19:08 Shara         Well I'm certainly not approving a whole bunch of new MTG items (that I consider clutter) because 5.0 is not released yet... when those items wouldn't be in MTG until 5.0 anyway
19:08 VanessaE      until 5.0.0 is actually out, it may as well be years away.
19:08 * Krock       screams for real floats and cleaned up HUDs
19:09 rubenwardy    ^
19:09 Krock         (someone made PRs for that IIRC)
19:09 rubenwardy    anyway, I need to do work
19:09 rubenwardy    bye
19:10 sfan5         wb
19:10 VanessaE      short work :P
19:11 rubenwardy    decided I'll just mute it
19:11 Krock         good decision
19:11 VanessaE      mute it?
19:11 tumeninodes   XD
19:11 rubenwardy    the channel
19:11 VanessaE      oh, I did that years ago.
19:11 VanessaE      I can't stand sounds in IRC.
19:11 rubenwardy    no
19:12 rubenwardy    I mean "permanently hide", so I no longer see the channel in my channel switcher
19:12 rubenwardy    but it still collects logs
19:12 rubenwardy    I'm writing a VM with pipelining, out-of-order execution, and branch prediction
19:12 rubenwardy    almost as painful as MT dev
19:12 Krock         you're still not working btw
19:13 VanessaE      *shrug* I just ignore channels I don't have time (or interest at the moment) to participate in
19:13 rubenwardy    oh damn
19:13 Krock         :P
19:13 * tumeninodes could have used some branch prediction when he did his last PR
19:15 * VanessaE    adds the "basic materials" idea to her TODO
19:17 Shara         Coming up with good divisions for things isn't always easy, but seems very worth the effort
19:17 Shara         Trying to avoid a monster like default in HW has been fun
19:18 VanessaE      well in this case, if I do it at all, I'm not going to bother separating plastic from metal from glass (if any)....that's for the recycle bin. :P
19:18 Shara         And I have extra complications when it comes to recipes because of the changed crafting system
19:22 VanessaE      changed?
19:25 Shara         Not using crafting grid
19:25 VanessaE      oh
19:28 Shara         Anyone know why areas mod tells me a player that is standing right in front of me doesn't exist when I try to change area ownership to him?
19:29 VanessaE      not sure.
19:29 Shara         I've never had this happen before
19:29 rubenwardy    anything special about their name?
19:29 rubenwardy    ie: -_
19:30 Shara         Actually can't change ownership to anyone
19:30 VanessaE      make sure there are no extraneous spaces in the command
19:30 paramat       good grief ... day of insanity in this channel =/
19:30 Shara         If I try to change ownership of someone else's area to me, it informs me "The player "Shara" does not exist."
19:31 VanessaE      I get bit by that a lot.
19:31 Shara         Well, it's just areas... I haven't changed it
19:33 VanessaE      paramat: when isn't it insane in here?
19:35 garywhite     Certainly not today
19:42 paramat       VanessaE, being cautious about using alpha in MTG glass textures is a good thing, not a bad thing, due to the visual glitches. we've already explained the silver/mithril issues, silver maybe, mithril is too unoriginal
19:44 Shara         paramat: any idea why glasslike_framed shows me the backface of the glass whereas glasslike doesn't?
19:44 Shara         This inconsistency is really annoying
19:45 paramat       Fixer if you have a problem with MTG, write your own game instead of being negative and hysterical. we've been asking for new games for years, anything good and original, big or small, will be bundled with MT
19:46 Shara         paramat: no, not "anything"
19:46 Shara         That's a recipe for disaster :P
19:46 VanessaE      paramat: the "explanation" as I remember it was "rainbow caves" and "too many nodes".  neither applies today.
19:47 VanessaE      paramat: and good games HAVE been submitted before. none have been accepted, but then they weren't rejected either.  simply no action was taken.
19:48 paramat       Shara no idea about glasslike framed, numberzero is the expert. i guess the drawtype is hardcoded to not do backface culling
19:48 Shara         It means you get flickering anytime a glasslike_framed node is placed directly against another node... this is not using alpha
19:48 Shara         It looks terrible
19:49 VanessaE      that's Z fighting
19:49 shivajiva     heh, that took a while to read and digest :)
19:49 VanessaE      don't conflate that with the other alpha glitch that we have
19:49 Shara         VanessaE: I'm not. I'm interested in this because it's currently effecting things I'm working on.
19:49 shivajiva     my players use it for a tv screen, something to watch flickering xD
19:49 paramat       (well perhaps 'anything good enough')
19:51 paramat       glasslike framed backface flicker is worth an issue, and tag numberzero :)
19:51 Shara         Sure
19:51 Shara         I'd be amazed if there is not an issue somewhere yet though?
19:53 Shara         VanessaE: this is the issue with alpha glass: http://gingercat.tk/mt/water_glass.gif
19:54 Shara         That's without me even moving. It just does this
19:54 VanessaE      idk what even causes that
19:54 VanessaE      but I see it even without glass
19:54 Shara         Me neither, but this would be the norm if we used alpha for default glass
19:54 VanessaE      like if an underwater cave is in just the right spot
19:54 Shara         And I want alpha for glass, just to be clear
19:55 Shara         HW ice uses alpha as well, I inisted on it, despite this... but thankfully the flickering is very hard to notice with the exact texture used
20:04 paramat       i would consider silver ore in MTG if it is used a lot by mods. but not mithril. the caution is probably due to adding bronze and tin, many see those as mistakes
20:05 paramat       i can't remember an issue for glasslike framed z-fighting
20:06 shivajiva     not related to #95 then
20:06 ShadowBot     https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/95 -- Seeing more lava through see-through lava (no translucency depth-sorting)
20:08 paramat       correct, different
20:09 garywhite     wb Bobr
20:13 Bobr          thnaks
20:14 VanessaE      shivajiva, paramat: you know, there's a certain irony in referencing that issue.  "NO TIME!!!11one"... that issue is 6 years old.
20:15 VanessaE      translation:  I don't buy the "we have no time" argument.  something THAT old is clearly "no one cares enough to fix it"
20:15 VanessaE      (considering how much dev has happened since then)
20:16 Shara         It's not about time, but maybe is about someone with the right skills
20:16 VanessaE      n o
20:16 VanessaE      no.
20:16 VanessaE      it's always "no time">
20:16 VanessaE      that is ALWAYS the first thing I hear.
20:16 Shara         Don't no me when I'm agreeing with you?
20:16 * Shara       tries to carefully tug the bag of nos away from VanessaE
20:17 Bobr          laughing gas i get it lol
20:18 paramat       core devs don't have time for it now, that's my point. previously, sure perhaps we were lazy about it
20:18 VanessaE      June 2012.  I seem to recall between then and a couple years ago, we had a certain "Angel" who had the time, skills, and inclination to make those kinds of fixes, but whose work was constantly being delayed from going into mainline
20:18 paramat       it's a really big task too
20:20 paramat       i'm not sure RBA could have fixed that. and note his work was often sloppy
20:20 * VanessaE    shrugs.
20:20 VanessaE      sloppy maybe, but his stuff worked.
20:20 Krock         better sloppy work than none. former can be adapted/adopted, latter not.
20:21 VanessaE      he almost gave us true lighting.
20:21 VanessaE      I still have a copy of those kick-ass water and lava shaders he made.
20:21 paramat       if anything delayed his stuff being merged it was probably for good reason. i don't remember any sort of conspiracy against him
20:22 VanessaE      paramat: I'm not saying there was a conspiracy against him
20:22 Krock         I remember some flamewars but that's another topic
20:22 paramat       'worked' is not good enough
20:22 VanessaE      rather, "Pefect is the enemy of good"
20:22 VanessaE      I mean ffs you guys delay merges because of whitespace and other code style issues.
20:22 paramat       we've had to fix so much of his stuff that caused problems later
20:23 VanessaE      (I get it, good code style ensures readability and maintainability)
20:24 paramat       hardware lighting is a very difficult task, it was discussed a lot. RBA may well not have been able to cope with it, and no he didn't almost develop it, he didn't even start
20:24 VanessaE      he made it work.
20:24 VanessaE      I've seen his screenshots of it.
20:25 VanessaE      I don't recall why his code was never published though
20:26 GreenDimond   Read some backlog. VanessaE: Literally an addon for Blender that makes teapots
20:26 paramat       he didn't make hardware lighting work. he just managed a very basic example that ignored all the difficult issues
20:27 paramat       "you guys delay merges because of whitespace and other code style issues" yes :) it's called code quality
20:27 * VanessaE    sighs
20:27 VanessaE      you and I have very different ideas about what makes for good code quality....
20:28 paramat       VanessaE i've never seen you write so much sillyness in one day before, *sigh*, but nevermind :)
20:28 GreenDimond   Blendaddon is "Add mesh: Extra objects" btw, VanessaE.
20:28 VanessaE      GreenDimond: wtf are you talking about?
20:28 GreenDimond   teapot
20:29 VanessaE      GreenDimond: er, no.  that would be the Utah Teapot, and anyway, different discussion.
20:29 VanessaE      paramat: sillines?
20:29 VanessaE      ok, frankly now I take offense.
20:29 GreenDimond   Theres more than one kind of teapot :v
20:29 GreenDimond   Stop the Earth, im getting off.
20:30 paramat       we're not sloppy, we're not freeminer, luckily. good codestyle makes dev tolerable
20:30 Shara         GreenDimond: I've known some people literally collect teapots :)
20:30 VanessaE      GreenDimond: the one in Blender afaik is the Utah Teapot, pretty sure that's copyrighted.
20:30 VanessaE      paramat: and no one's asking you guys to take on those "qualities", either.
20:31 VanessaE      but just as Krock said (reworded), sloppy code is better than none at all.  you can't fix, let alone merge, that which doesn't exist.
20:33 VanessaE      (one assumes "sloppy" does not translate into "poorly-written" or "inefficient")
20:33 paramat       "sloppy code is better than none at all." not so actually. better to not add something non-essential than add bad, buggy, intensive code
20:33 VanessaE      *facepalm*
20:34 paramat       and you can fix code in a PR before it gets merged
20:36 VanessaE      you know full well how unworkable that process can be.
20:38 VanessaE      fork -> make changes -> make PR -> fix some aspect of PR -> (repeat a few times) -> 6 months later, unmergeable because the codebase has changed too much, would take more effort to fix than to just start over -> PR dies
20:38 VanessaE      do that enough times, contributor gives up.
20:40 VanessaE      a lot of that is simply because MT lacks any "horribly-unstable" branch
20:41 VanessaE      (but that would have issues of its own)
21:58 rubenwardy    Adding sloppy code is how you get unmaintainable mess
21:58 rubenwardy    Sloppy *fixes* isn't so bad, as long as it's well contained
21:58 VanessaE      sure, if no one bothers to fix-up....
21:58 VanessaE      oh forget it.  i give up.
21:59 rubenwardy    no one will bother to fix it
21:59 rubenwardy    except for me, years later, by which point it's a massive PITA
22:00 Fixer         VanessaE: "skyblock is sooo 2011"
22:02 Fixer         VanessaE: z-sorting is huge problem when you build underwater
22:05 VanessaE      ...
22:10 Fixer         mese vs diamond
22:13 Fixer         VanessaE: plastic for what? We have useless metals already :D
22:13 VanessaE      ...
22:17 Fixer         walls are for aesthetics
22:17 VanessaE      I thought they were nutjob presidents?
22:17 * VanessaE    hides
22:19 Fixer         remove vessels? Ree, they are for aesthetics, please decide why you even develope the game, what it is, how it will look
22:20 Fixer         I've learned from MC that you can design blocks in such a way, your creativity explodes just by placing that block different way
22:20 Fixer         rubenwardy: do you have stats for mod downloads on CDB?
22:22 VanessaE      hence the idea I mentioned.  stack two vessel shelves, put back home decor window shutters on back, a glass door on front, and you have a check-out line soda fridge or vending machine.
22:22 VanessaE      black shutters*
22:22 benrob0329    garywhite, if you register with SASL you won't expose your IP to the channel
22:25 Fixer         maybe it is time to throw away that crafting system crap
22:25 garywhite     Someone else on another network told me to do that but never said how...
22:25 Fixer         and go terraria way
22:25 Fixer         so annoying
22:26 Fixer         VanessaE: moreores merge was too fast tbh, they have little to no use, only for aesthetics
22:27 Fixer         and z-sorting blinking may induce epilepsy to some people, I feel
22:27 VanessaE      skyblock makes use of moreores for quests
22:28 Fixer         Shara: water_glass.gif is lack of z(alpha)-sorting, needs to be implemented in engine itself
22:30 benrob0329    garywhite, for you, perhaps, but not for me
22:30 benrob0329    also nice realname :P
22:31 garywhite     heh
22:31 Fixer         VanessaE: RBA shaders were slow, same with MC shaders, needs powerful GPU ($200 or so)
22:31 VanessaE      $200 GPU?  what is this, 2008?
22:33 Fixer         sometimes sloppy code is bad, but if you have someone to work on it after merge, probably no problem
22:34 rubenwardy    well, depends what "sloppy" means
22:34 rubenwardy    I do feel that code style reviews aren't a good idea
22:34 Fixer         remember that epic SFS patch that improved performance? It was reopened like 3 times and was sitting for a loooooong time
22:35 rubenwardy    that was partially my fault
22:35 rubenwardy    I rebased it but did it wrong
22:35 rubenwardy    this was way before I became a dev
22:36 Fixer         also, for engine dev, review is probably okay, but god damn MTG can sure move faster (maybe?)?
22:37 Fixer         VanessaE: prices are very bad these days, pentium for $100, budget GPU crap for $150
22:38 Fixer         VanessaE: mem price doubled
22:38 Fixer         RIP PC users
22:38 VanessaE      not the comparison I was making.
22:38 Fixer         MC finally copied MT style stone slabs
22:38 Fixer         in 2018
22:39 Fixer         now it feels like in minetest
22:39 VanessaE      GPUs in the $200 range 10 years ago were still enormously powerful compared to the "must run on integrated graphics paradigm" that's dominated so much of MT.
22:40 VanessaE      s/ paradigm\"/\" paradigm/
22:42 Fixer         I had 30 fps on RBA shaders with $200 HD6870 back in the day
22:42 Fixer         and about 30-60 in MC SEUS shaders
22:42 VanessaE      HD6870 is a good GPU but kinda low-end now :P
22:43 VanessaE      (I think Abe's box has one of those still)
22:44 Fixer         VanessaE: yes, but back in the day it was okayish
22:44 VanessaE      yep
22:44 Fixer         now I'm on intel hd
22:44 VanessaE      but if "$200 GPU" is your metric, that one fits quite well
22:44 VanessaE      as does my R9 280X ($180)
22:44 Fixer         does it still work?
22:45 VanessaE      iow, "any old-ass GPU less than 10 or 15 years old" :P
22:45 VanessaE      what that 6870 in Abe's box?
22:45 garywhite     The reason the "must run on integrated graphics paradigm" is so prominent is cause the majority of people don't own a desktop anymore (myself included)
22:46 Fixer         VanessaE: my 6870 died just before 5 years, and I did not even used it much, SAD!
22:46 Fixer         and then manufacturers ramped up prices to ridiculous levels
22:46 VanessaE      garywhite: I don't think that's true.  most people probably have a mobile, yes, not "don't own a desktop" doesn't correlate as well as you'd think
22:46 VanessaE      no serious gamer does their gaming on a mobile.
22:47 Fixer         yep
22:47 VanessaE      Fixer: well, afaik, the one I have in his old box still works (the machine was shut down and shelved after I moved after he died)
22:47 rud0lf        when i travel i use playstation emu with otg gamepad
22:48 Fixer         i always had problems with GPUs for some reason
22:48 Fixer         previous one had snow(gpu) and mem errors
22:48 Fixer         before that was fine
22:48 Fixer         but that was gf2mx
22:48 VanessaE      any problems I ever had, aside from hardware failure (which can happen to just anything) was traced to bad drivers.
22:51 garywhite     I'm gonna rephrase to say the average user doesn't have a desktop anymore, gamers almost always do, but average users don't anymore
22:51 VanessaE      and MT is what, a word processor?
22:51 VanessaE      no.  it's a game (engine).
22:54 garywhite     But more and more average users are playing games on their laptops instead of a desktop PC
22:54 VanessaE      my point is, MT should be able to take full advantage of a modern GPU
22:55 garywhite     I agree with that, but it should also be able to run smoothly on systems that can't be upgraded
22:55 VanessaE      if old-ass games like OpenArena can manage both high-end and low end, so can MT, ignoring for the moment that no one coding for MT seems to have the trinity of skills, time, and motivation to make it happen
22:57 VanessaE      but that's all moot
22:57 VanessaE      and not related to the earlier discussion
22:58 garywhite     ...on another note, I just found out that my laptop is actually even slower than I thought, I was looking up another model for a friend and I found that my CPU is actually dual-core instead of quad-core like I originally thought
22:58 Fixer         I'm not against laptops, btw
22:58 Fixer         laptops are somewhat weak on cpu, gpu...
22:58 Fixer         if you buy cheap
22:58 Fixer         and people buy cheap crap
22:59 VanessaE      hell, even my phone probably has a better GPU than the "integrated graphics" MT was originally written for :P
23:00 garywhite     Yeah, in fact tbh a few months ago I was able to get MT 0.4.17 to run on my old Core 2 Duo laptop (although it was rather slow) and that was on 10-year-old integrated graphics, I think
23:02 Fixer         try disabling shaders
23:04 Fixer         VanessaE: i've played MT 0.2-0.3-0.4 on GPU from 2003, FEEL OLD YET?
23:04 VanessaE      nope.
23:04 VanessaE      you forget, I started with 0.3 and I run a server meant to act like 0.2.
23:05 VanessaE      and ...hm, what WAS my GPU at the time?  Some mid-range nVidia card I think.
23:11 tumeninodes   well, looks like I'll have to refork :P
23:11 VanessaE      ?
23:12 tumeninodes   when I did my last PR, I completely forgot to create a new branch for it
23:12 tumeninodes   IRL distractions
23:13 sofar         don't
23:13 sofar         please, don't
23:13 tumeninodes   I've used git revert once before but...
23:13 sofar         want to know how to fix it?
23:13 tumeninodes   yes please
23:13 sofar         ok so you're on the master branch
23:13 sofar         and you have how many commits that are not supposed to be there?
23:13 tumeninodes   I think 7
23:14 sofar         so you have: [master] - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
23:14 sofar         and you want:
23:14 sofar         [master] - 0
23:14 sofar         [special] - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
23:14 tumeninodes   yes... as of now it is 7 ahead and 1 behind
23:14 sofar         alright
23:14 sofar         first thing first
23:14 sofar         do `git branch special`
23:15 sofar         or whatever you want to name the branch
23:15 sofar         got that?
23:15 sofar         `git branch -a` should show you the new branch now
23:15 tumeninodes   yep Ill stick with special so you can use that ref
23:15 sofar         excellent
23:15 sofar         so now you have:
23:16 sofar         [master] - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
23:16 sofar         [special] - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
23:16 sofar         right?
23:16 sofar         try `git log special` and compare with `git log master`
23:17 sofar         ok so the next step is to go from
23:17 sofar         [master] - 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
23:17 sofar         to
23:17 sofar         [master] - 0
23:17 tumeninodes   hold on a sec please
23:17 tumeninodes   I have this https://pastebin.com/L00SeqYg
23:18 sofar         that's obviously fine, it's what I said you'd get
23:18 tumeninodes   oh ok
23:19 sofar         please read `git log special` and check that your commits are there
23:19 tumeninodes   yes they are
23:19 sofar         great
23:19 sofar         next part is to remove them from master
23:20 tumeninodes   kill them with extreme prejudice
23:20 sofar         do: `git log master` and look for the first commit that has the words "origin/master" at the end of the sentence
23:21 sofar         make note of the commit message title
23:21 tumeninodes   hold on, I seem locked into that now
23:21 sofar         e.g. "Beds: Use mod textures instead of default_wood.png"
23:22 sofar         it may take a while if you're piping it to something (don't pipe git log)
23:22 tumeninodes   how do I get out of the log?
23:22 sofar         assuming PAGER=less, q
23:22 sofar         ^C may also work
23:23 tumeninodes   that just gives me this line now: commit e66031f2222c4ac38c6264ff750874a7ecc6a783
23:24 sofar         what on earth are you doing to mess up git log?
23:24 tumeninodes   nothing I am stuck in it
23:24 sofar         ^C not work?
23:25 tumeninodes   nah it just referenced to the commit where I changed from the copryright logo to (C)
23:25 tumeninodes   :P
23:25 tumeninodes   must have acte4d like a search filter
23:25 sofar         press 'q' then?
23:25 tumeninodes   ok thats it
23:25 sofar         what do you have PAGER set to?
23:26 sofar         if you don't know, it's `less`
23:26 tumeninodes   no idea my friend haha
23:26 sofar         exiting `less` == `q`
23:26 sofar         anyway
23:26 sofar         just do `git reset --hard HEAD~1`
23:26 sofar         until you no longer see your own special commits
23:26 sofar         should be 7x :)
23:27 sofar         after that, you can verify that you removed all commits with `git pull --rebase` which should just update and not have any more patches applied on top
23:27 tumeninodes   ahhhh so thats how rest --hard works
23:27 sofar         there's a few ways, this one I like because the 1 means '1 commit'
23:27 sofar         you can do 7 at once with HEAD~7
23:27 sofar         etc.
23:27 tumeninodes   nice
23:27 tumeninodes   thank you very much
23:28 sofar         last part
23:28 sofar         `git checkout special`
23:28 sofar         and then push that branch
23:28 sofar         to your fork on github
23:28 tumeninodes   so I want to push that to git push origin master, once I am done?
23:30 tumeninodes   ok now HEAD is at 58f6994 Liquid sources: Backface-cull sides and base. Remove unused special tiles, which is what I want
23:30 BillyS        Hmm
23:31 BillyS        Are textures still downloaded and loaded into memory from the server if they are specified in a texture pack?
23:33 sofar         tumeninodes: I don't know what remote is origin for you, that's what the push command depends on
23:33 sofar         BillyS: good question, IDK, you'd have to try and check
23:33 BillyS        kk
23:34 tumeninodes   my fork is origin, I use the MTG official for upstream
23:35 BillyS        Im trying to decrease MT memory usage
23:35 BillyS        And I don't really care about how it looks
23:35 BillyS        Even if it is all unknown nodes
23:37 tumeninodes   sofar, this is where I'm at... I want to be careful so I do not make a huge mess https://pastebin.com/8EGTrWEq
23:40 sofar         don't push 'origin master'
23:40 sofar         git push special
23:40 sofar         nothing more
23:44 tumeninodes   omfg, wth am I doing wrong here? https://pastebin.com/mbfFQL2p
23:46 T4im          "git push origin master" would actually be correct if you wanted to push your local master to origins master
23:47 T4im          but first relax :D everything can be repaired in git once it is committed... well.. for 30 days or so anyway
23:48 tumeninodes   git gets frustrating some things I have been able to figure out for myself (such as revert) but this is where I get confused with it/git
23:49 T4im          you nearly never want git revert; it's to make a new commit that reverts another commit that is already fixed in history
23:50 tumeninodes   well it worked for me once :D
23:50 T4im          perhaps start by adopting the new behavior git is advertising you with :P
23:50 tumeninodes   I just need to get from where I am at currently, without creating a vblackhole and killing all of us
23:51 tumeninodes   cuz I'd be the guy to do that
23:52 T4im          ok so you are on your master branch, and made some commits to it?
23:52 tumeninodes   I did several resets to HEAD
23:52 tumeninodes   7 tba
23:53 tumeninodes   tbe
23:54 T4im          well you could just have reseted to the commit you wanted to begin with :p the ids are listed on the right in githubs history
23:54 T4im          :D
23:54 T4im          i assume you are at 5ccf965 or 58f6994?
23:54 tumeninodes   the latter
23:55 T4im          and you just want to update your origin with it? or first update with the newest modification from mtg?
23:55 tumeninodes   yes
23:56 T4im          then your "git push origin master" should probably work
23:56 tumeninodes   no, because those reverts were done in a new branch called 'special'
23:57 T4im          ah, you are not on master then?
23:57 tumeninodes   so actually I am on branch 'special',
23:57 tumeninodes   correct, sorry
23:57 T4im          well, "git push origin special:master" might work
23:57 T4im          unless you might need a force push
23:57 tumeninodes   that was the next thing I was thinking
23:58 tumeninodes   wait... magic happened... let me check if it was good or bad
23:59 tumeninodes   nope... now my origin master AND origin special are both 7 ahead and 1 behind
23:59 tumeninodes   ... so, this is how people go insane...