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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2022-06-28

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10:59 sfan5 pushing https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/a5f385917d0db5097e3cd4a1c6de794bda20c01f
11:12 MTDiscord <luatic> BTW sfan5, I just noticed a double space (after the return) sneaked in on my serialization PR: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/builtin/common/tests/serialize_spec.lua#L155. it's pretty irrelevant but it bugs me.
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12:33 kilbith just a quick reminder: the meaning of being *core*-dev is that you are responsible for the *engines*; it doesn't mean you get to decide what to do for the website.
12:34 kilbith (looking at you sfan5)
12:34 MTDiscord <luatic> calm down kilbith
12:34 MTDiscord <luatic> sfan5's point was proven
12:34 MTDiscord <luatic> the hastily merged PR was imperfect
12:34 MTDiscord <luatic> so a thorough review isn't wrong here
12:34 kilbith he still don't get to get his hands on it, it's up to rubenwardy and Calinou
12:35 kilbith a review is fine, but the decision is up to these two
12:35 MTDiscord <luatic> huh? not quite
12:35 rubenwardy his review is good and counts
12:35 rubenwardy I hate the numeric filenames though
12:35 MTDiscord <luatic> at least that's not what the permissions on GH say
12:36 kilbith how is sfan5' review legitimate to count? officially
12:37 MTDiscord <luatic> kilbith: Because the website repo is also managed by the MTG team: https://github.com/orgs/minetest/teams/game/repositories
12:37 kilbith by the MTG team?
12:37 MTDiscord <luatic> yes, apart from the website team https://github.com/orgs/minetest/teams/website, which also includes celeron
12:37 kilbith I don't see how it has a relationship with Minetest Game at all
12:37 MTDiscord <luatic> but out of the original site team ruben is practically the only active one :P
12:39 kilbith in that case let's give you the permission to manage the engine PRs if we mix things up that far
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12:40 MTDiscord <luatic> hehe
12:40 MTDiscord <luatic> TBF I could review Lua PRs & trivial C++ PRs
12:41 MTDiscord <luatic> practically all PRs that aren't large portions of C++
12:42 MTDiscord <luatic> technically the docs team should probably allowed to review and merge doc-only PRs
12:42 MTDiscord <luatic> be allowed*
12:42 kilbith nice try but still not
12:42 kilbith to document well, you have to understand how the engine works
12:44 rubenwardy even if this is an edge case, it would take about 10 seconds to add sfan5 to the website team
12:45 MTDiscord <luatic> merely reading engine sources isn't difficult
12:45 MTDiscord <luatic> rubenwardy: (X) doubt, or does celeron55 happen to be around?
13:11 celeron55 i don't see the big issue here. the website repo permissions are a bit messed up but it's not like sfan5 isn't actually trusted to give opinions there
13:12 celeron55 i'll get those permissions in order when something actually unwanted happens
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13:17 rubenwardy I was surprised that mtg had access
13:17 rubenwardy I thought it was just the website and engine teams
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13:55 kilbith OSS is about meritocracy and it isn't meritocracy when you give someone permissions when they're unqualified for it
13:57 MTDiscord <luatic> kilbith: I don't see anyone unqualified having access. In fact I see many who are qualified yet don't have access.
13:57 kilbith exactly when Shara back at the time was promoted core-dev while she has wrote a single line of C++ in her life
13:58 rubenwardy she was never promoted to core dev
13:58 kilbith sfan5 isn't a front-end web developer like rubenwardy or Calinou, that's my point
13:58 kilbith anyway it's not that important
13:59 rubenwardy she was given access to improve documentation
13:59 kilbith I just don't wanna see too much bare MTG on the website and it seems that it's one's purpose
13:59 rubenwardy also, the thing in question here is screenshot selection not web development
13:59 kilbith it sucks and it belongs to the old world
14:00 rubenwardy also, calling me a front-end dev is an insult to front-end devs. I'm full-stack, meaning I'm shit at both
14:00 kilbith oh ok, sorry
14:00 MTDiscord <luatic> hehe
14:00 MTDiscord <luatic> web dev isn't that hard
14:00 MTDiscord <luatic> anyone who has wrestled with C++ will trivially be able to do web dev work
14:00 MTDiscord <luatic> so I support giving the entire core dev team website access
14:01 kilbith I don't think so
14:01 kilbith look at RMS website, it sucks
14:01 kilbith yet he's extremely efficient in C
14:02 MTDiscord <luatic> have you ever considered the possiblity that it deliberately "sucks"? https://motherfuckingwebsite.com/
14:02 MTDiscord <luatic> possibility*
14:03 MTDiscord <luatic> minimal (especially terminal-based) browsers have it way easier when clear, semantic HTML is used, CSS is not relied upon and JS isn't used at all
14:03 kilbith I think you are off the mark, like usual
14:03 rubenwardy obligatory http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/
14:04 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> https://thebestmotherfucking.website/ is best ofc
14:04 MTDiscord <luatic> beat me to it
14:04 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> hehe
14:05 MTDiscord <luatic> the bettermotherfuckingwebsite creator pulled a sneaky one, he reserved both https://bestmotherfuckingwebsite.com and https://bettermotherfucking.website/ and made the former redirect to the latter
14:06 MTDiscord <luatic> kilbith: I think any love the website gets is worth it. I'm yet to see a core dev messing the website up.
14:06 kilbith not if love equates to more MTG
14:07 MTDiscord <luatic> more MTG wouldn't be bad either, currently there's very little content
14:07 MTDiscord <luatic> ideally more "everything else" should however also be included
14:08 Zughy[m] or MTG eventually removed, so we can get rid of those screenshots, really
14:08 kilbith ^
14:08 MTDiscord <luatic> :o
14:09 MTDiscord <luatic> not my precious MTG!
14:09 Zughy[m] first impression is key
14:09 MTDiscord <luatic> agreed
14:09 MTDiscord <luatic> MTG should be un-defaulted
14:09 Zughy[m] *removed by being shipped by default
14:09 MTDiscord <luatic> jumpscare is gone now :)
14:10 rubenwardy rename Minetest Game to Minetest "Please mod me" Game
14:11 MTDiscord <luatic> :3
14:12 rubenwardy Honestly, mtg is unredeemable - there's quite a few things you can do to make it much better without throwing it away. There's just no political will
14:12 rubenwardy And people want either more unique or less unique games
14:15 Zughy[m] as freshreplicant said on Matrix the other day, what Minetest needs is a default game that doesn't suck, because the best way to tell people what Minetest can do is to show them. The engine-platform-game debate is just too much
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14:17 kilbith a game cannot be successful or fun if it's designed by a communist-ey committee
14:17 MTDiscord <luatic> Zughy: TBH we're still kinda missing polished games despite the game jam though
14:17 rubenwardy A lot of the best modding communities center around a good game, rather than a technically better API
14:17 Zughy[m] right now they install it, start it and "urgh". Just saying, if something like i3 or my texture pack (or Hugues Ross') were there by default, the reaction would be way different. The problem is, finding enough skilled people that want to focus on one single thing without blocking it every two seconds with wall of texts
14:18 MTDiscord <luatic> hmm those aren't quite games
14:18 MTDiscord <luatic> although those are good content
14:18 MTDiscord <luatic> perhaps we should put more emphasis on the serverlist?
14:18 MTDiscord <luatic> singleplayer is always rather boring from my experience
14:19 kilbith server admins are not good at curating mods either
14:19 MTDiscord <luatic> we'd need servers to be inventorified kinda like mods & games on CDB
14:19 MTDiscord <luatic> including featured servers like CTF or AES
14:23 Zughy[m] kilbith: I consider myself pretty good at curating my mods and I'm also a server admin. I wouldn't despise some helpers though
14:24 kilbith yes you're one of the few exceptions for sure
14:24 MTDiscord <luatic> Zughy[m]: Consider you entire arena stuff
14:24 MTDiscord <luatic> It's pretty pointless in singleplayer
14:24 MTDiscord <luatic> except for the few people who probably contribute arenas and/or games
14:25 MTDiscord <luatic> The server must be advertised
14:27 Zughy[m] actually it makes sense in singleplayer too if you want to do something with a minigame inside. In the dev version you don't have to rely on signs anymore, you can use your own way of entering a queue/a match, so you could use NPCs, portals and the like. An RPG could benefit from it
14:28 Zughy[m] but I guess we're OT, sorry
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14:46 kilbith https://monitor.rubenwardy.com/d/3ELzFy3Wz/contentdb?orgId=1
14:46 kilbith I can see the MC announce effect
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15:07 Zughy[m] thank you Microsoft
15:08 rubenwardy there's a lot more users signing up but I can't see much of a difference in downloads
15:09 rubenwardy I should track number of reviews / comments to see activity
15:10 rubenwardy also, ContentDB is pretty monolithic and only really supports scaling up. I'd be a bit screwed if we had a 1000x increase in user demand
15:11 rubenwardy well, the bottleneck would be postgresql. I think the workers can be scaled out
15:11 rubenwardy oh and network for uploads
15:14 kilbith this is OpenMW does their post-processing framework, if one is interested: https://gitlab.com/OpenMW/openmw/-/merge_requests/1124
15:18 rubenwardy x2048: ^
15:19 sfan5 sorry what
15:19 sfan5 I am not trusted to give opinion on the website repo?
15:19 sfan5 and apparently I better shouldn't have write permission either?
15:20 kilbith not on the website obviously
15:20 rubenwardy If it wasn't for you, there wouldn't be any one else to review my changes given Cal**'s availability
15:22 rubenwardy and sfan5 is right, you need some MTG screenshots as MTG is still packaged by default
15:22 kilbith but it's not good marketing at all
15:22 sfan5 "obviously"? how is it justified that some opinions should apprently discarded based on who raises them instead of their contents?
15:22 kilbith I never said you should not give your opinion
15:23 kilbith but demanding the write privilege is just unfair
15:24 sfan5 i don't get it then because write permission haven't ever been discussed
15:24 rubenwardy even without the content argument, the engine team needs write access to release minetest
15:25 sfan5 "Are you mad because we don’t show off bare MTG enough for you ? thinking" oh yeah I can see why the provocative comments
15:25 sfan5 if all you're gonna contribute is division between core devs then fuck off
15:25 kilbith interrogating comment *
15:26 rubenwardy sfan5's review comments were all valid and good, and is someone who can be trusted on the website
15:26 rubenwardy if you want less MTG, then we need to work to dethrone it first
15:27 sfan5 we already have less MTG, one screenshot is enough
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18:13 nrz What i "liké" In Oss bureaucracy for nothing spécial blocking interesting contributions, just because of organization. Gg kilbith, a useless drama
18:30 celeron55 well, what do you think, when can MTG be dropped from being shipped by default?
18:30 celeron55 menu redesign seems to have the role of the magic bullet at the moment
18:31 celeron55 i think i've said so somewhere myself
18:32 celeron55 currently, if no game came with the engine, the new user's reaction would be even more "wat" than currently
18:33 celeron55 making mtg look nicer is an easy option. not sure what effects that would have, hopefully it wouldn't make it any more popular
18:45 MTDiscord <x2048> Making MTG look nicer would not solve anything, IMHO. Vanilla MTG lacks content.
18:58 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> I'm currently working on implementing popular menu redesigns (sort of a hybrid of tacotexmex's and zughy's designs)
18:59 rubenwardy oh boy, rolling your own design
19:12 Pexin can't mtg just be renamed to something like "official barebones" or such?
19:12 Pexin make it more obvious to users how MT works
19:13 sfan5 "you mod mtg and that's it" isn't how mtg works, but that's the impression it would leave
19:13 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Rubenwardy: its not really my own design. Its literally just zughys design with tacos sidebar
19:14 freshreplicant[m sfan5: But you'd hardly ever play it vanilla, right?
19:14 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> But inevitably it will end up evolving
19:24 MTDiscord <x2048> Idea check: is there anything against replacing irr with bgfx? Does it make sense to resesrch this path?
19:25 rubenwardy bgfx seems quite well supported. I think it invokes the usual issue of replacing irrlicht with anything: the effort required
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19:25 sfan5 freshreplicant[m: the point that we want to leave is "Minetest is an engine and there's difference games for it" and not "This is the base game and you can mod it"
19:26 sfan5 I supposed bgfx is an alternative to writing our own renderer, but that doesn't make it an exact Irrlicht replacement
19:27 sfan5 that's no issue though because we plan to assimilate the (rest of) IrrlichtMt anyway
19:27 rubenwardy yeah that's what I gather
19:27 * MidasTouchHomeco posted a file: (36KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/oQHSJDbDFzrewclcOnIhNKfY/EXAMPLE.html >
19:27 MidasTouchHomeco Why do the Minetest Docs compile so long to HTML with ASCIIDoctor?
19:27 rubenwardy also it might be worth going with something like bgfx over OpenGL as it looks like OpenGL is slowly phasing out
19:27 rubenwardy but only if it doesn't go the same way as irrlicht
19:28 rubenwardy #minetest-docs
19:28 MidasTouchHomeco It literally does not exist.
19:28 MidasTouchHomeco I cannot find the channel.
19:28 sfan5 Minecraft usees the library too so I guess we won't be alone with that problem ;)
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19:29 rubenwardy yeah exactly, bgfx seems well supported
19:29 schwarzwald[m] MidasTouchHomeco: Maybe it isn't bridged to Matrix. I'll get in contact with someone else in the docs group and let them know.
19:30 rubenwardy also x2048 I want to say thanks for your efforts with graphics, espcially the post processing PR lately, it's good to see
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19:30 MidasTouchHomeco schwarzwald[m]: Ok, I'll try to delete and resend in the Docs channel from Discord itself.]
19:30 MidasTouchHomeco > <@schwarzwald:matrix.org> Maybe it isn't bridged to Matrix. I'll get in contact with someone else in the docs group and let them know.
19:30 MidasTouchHomeco * Ok, I'll try to delete and resend in the Docs channel from Discord itself.
19:31 sfan5 yep, it's great to have a dedicated graphics person willing to work on big things
19:32 sfan5 thanks x2048
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19:52 MTDiscord <x2048> sfan5 rubenwardy: thanks for the appreciation 🙂
19:53 MTDiscord <x2048> regarding bgfx, I thought about making a bgfx irrlicht driver as a possible path before we dissolve irrlicht entirely.
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21:17 Zughy[m] GreenXenith: oh no, another design. Also, screens first please
21:17 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Again, its not really another design
21:18 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Its your page layout with tex's nav
21:18 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> For now
21:26 rubenwardy updated #11955
21:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11955 -- Update and improve warnings when no games are found or when only devtest is installed by rollerozxa
21:28 MTDiscord <luatic> I'd suggest core devs to generally start editing PRs the way ruben just did
21:28 MTDiscord <luatic> No need for the suggestion - commit suggestion ping pong if the suggestion isn't a suggestion but rather an obvious fix
21:29 MTDiscord <luatic> The "allow edits by maintainers" checkmark exists for a reason ;)
21:32 rubenwardy it also took me 2 months to get around to it
21:39 MTDiscord <ROllerozxa> hooray!
21:54 schwarzwald[m] What's the status on the Debian release of Minetest? Have they been updating it or does IrrlichtMt need to be merged first?
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21:56 sfan5 https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/minetest
21:56 sfan5 >[2022-06-01] minetest 5.5.0+dfsg+~1.9.0mt4+dfsg-1 MIGRATED to testing
21:57 MTDiscord <FatalError> I wrote up a (few-ish) solution to the keyboard inputs problem
21:57 MTDiscord <FatalError> if anybody is interested: #12488
21:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12488 -- Additional keybinds; keyboard, and touchscreen support
22:03 schwarzwald[m] Glad to see that they already upgraded, sfan. I'll be excited to have it in the next stable when it finally comes out.
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