Time Nick Message 10:59 sfan5 pushing https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/a5f385917d0db5097e3cd4a1c6de794bda20c01f 11:12 MTDiscord BTW sfan5, I just noticed a double space (after the return) sneaked in on my serialization PR: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/builtin/common/tests/serialize_spec.lua#L155. it's pretty irrelevant but it bugs me. 12:33 kilbith just a quick reminder: the meaning of being *core*-dev is that you are responsible for the *engines*; it doesn't mean you get to decide what to do for the website. 12:34 kilbith (looking at you sfan5) 12:34 MTDiscord calm down kilbith 12:34 MTDiscord sfan5's point was proven 12:34 MTDiscord the hastily merged PR was imperfect 12:34 MTDiscord so a thorough review isn't wrong here 12:34 kilbith he still don't get to get his hands on it, it's up to rubenwardy and Calinou 12:35 kilbith a review is fine, but the decision is up to these two 12:35 MTDiscord huh? not quite 12:35 rubenwardy his review is good and counts 12:35 rubenwardy I hate the numeric filenames though 12:35 MTDiscord at least that's not what the permissions on GH say 12:36 kilbith how is sfan5' review legitimate to count? officially 12:37 MTDiscord kilbith: Because the website repo is also managed by the MTG team: https://github.com/orgs/minetest/teams/game/repositories 12:37 kilbith by the MTG team? 12:37 MTDiscord yes, apart from the website team https://github.com/orgs/minetest/teams/website, which also includes celeron 12:37 kilbith I don't see how it has a relationship with Minetest Game at all 12:37 MTDiscord but out of the original site team ruben is practically the only active one :P 12:39 kilbith in that case let's give you the permission to manage the engine PRs if we mix things up that far 12:40 MTDiscord hehe 12:40 MTDiscord TBF I could review Lua PRs & trivial C++ PRs 12:41 MTDiscord practically all PRs that aren't large portions of C++ 12:42 MTDiscord technically the docs team should probably allowed to review and merge doc-only PRs 12:42 MTDiscord be allowed* 12:42 kilbith nice try but still not 12:42 kilbith to document well, you have to understand how the engine works 12:44 rubenwardy even if this is an edge case, it would take about 10 seconds to add sfan5 to the website team 12:45 MTDiscord merely reading engine sources isn't difficult 12:45 MTDiscord rubenwardy: (X) doubt, or does celeron55 happen to be around? 13:11 celeron55 i don't see the big issue here. the website repo permissions are a bit messed up but it's not like sfan5 isn't actually trusted to give opinions there 13:12 celeron55 i'll get those permissions in order when something actually unwanted happens 13:17 rubenwardy I was surprised that mtg had access 13:17 rubenwardy I thought it was just the website and engine teams 13:55 kilbith OSS is about meritocracy and it isn't meritocracy when you give someone permissions when they're unqualified for it 13:57 MTDiscord kilbith: I don't see anyone unqualified having access. In fact I see many who are qualified yet don't have access. 13:57 kilbith exactly when Shara back at the time was promoted core-dev while she has wrote a single line of C++ in her life 13:58 rubenwardy she was never promoted to core dev 13:58 kilbith sfan5 isn't a front-end web developer like rubenwardy or Calinou, that's my point 13:58 kilbith anyway it's not that important 13:59 rubenwardy she was given access to improve documentation 13:59 kilbith I just don't wanna see too much bare MTG on the website and it seems that it's one's purpose 13:59 rubenwardy also, the thing in question here is screenshot selection not web development 13:59 kilbith it sucks and it belongs to the old world 14:00 rubenwardy also, calling me a front-end dev is an insult to front-end devs. I'm full-stack, meaning I'm shit at both 14:00 kilbith oh ok, sorry 14:00 MTDiscord hehe 14:00 MTDiscord web dev isn't that hard 14:00 MTDiscord anyone who has wrestled with C++ will trivially be able to do web dev work 14:00 MTDiscord so I support giving the entire core dev team website access 14:01 kilbith I don't think so 14:01 kilbith look at RMS website, it sucks 14:01 kilbith yet he's extremely efficient in C 14:02 MTDiscord have you ever considered the possiblity that it deliberately "sucks"? https://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ 14:02 MTDiscord possibility* 14:03 MTDiscord minimal (especially terminal-based) browsers have it way easier when clear, semantic HTML is used, CSS is not relied upon and JS isn't used at all 14:03 kilbith I think you are off the mark, like usual 14:03 rubenwardy obligatory http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/ 14:04 MTDiscord https://thebestmotherfucking.website/ is best ofc 14:04 MTDiscord beat me to it 14:04 MTDiscord hehe 14:05 MTDiscord the bettermotherfuckingwebsite creator pulled a sneaky one, he reserved both https://bestmotherfuckingwebsite.com and https://bettermotherfucking.website/ and made the former redirect to the latter 14:06 MTDiscord kilbith: I think any love the website gets is worth it. I'm yet to see a core dev messing the website up. 14:06 kilbith not if love equates to more MTG 14:07 MTDiscord more MTG wouldn't be bad either, currently there's very little content 14:07 MTDiscord ideally more "everything else" should however also be included 14:08 Zughy[m] or MTG eventually removed, so we can get rid of those screenshots, really 14:08 kilbith ^ 14:08 MTDiscord :o 14:09 MTDiscord not my precious MTG! 14:09 Zughy[m] first impression is key 14:09 MTDiscord agreed 14:09 MTDiscord MTG should be un-defaulted 14:09 Zughy[m] *removed by being shipped by default 14:09 MTDiscord jumpscare is gone now :) 14:10 rubenwardy rename Minetest Game to Minetest "Please mod me" Game 14:11 MTDiscord :3 14:12 rubenwardy Honestly, mtg is unredeemable - there's quite a few things you can do to make it much better without throwing it away. There's just no political will 14:12 rubenwardy And people want either more unique or less unique games 14:15 Zughy[m] as freshreplicant said on Matrix the other day, what Minetest needs is a default game that doesn't suck, because the best way to tell people what Minetest can do is to show them. The engine-platform-game debate is just too much 14:17 kilbith a game cannot be successful or fun if it's designed by a communist-ey committee 14:17 MTDiscord Zughy: TBH we're still kinda missing polished games despite the game jam though 14:17 rubenwardy A lot of the best modding communities center around a good game, rather than a technically better API 14:17 Zughy[m] right now they install it, start it and "urgh". Just saying, if something like i3 or my texture pack (or Hugues Ross') were there by default, the reaction would be way different. The problem is, finding enough skilled people that want to focus on one single thing without blocking it every two seconds with wall of texts 14:18 MTDiscord hmm those aren't quite games 14:18 MTDiscord although those are good content 14:18 MTDiscord perhaps we should put more emphasis on the serverlist? 14:18 MTDiscord singleplayer is always rather boring from my experience 14:19 kilbith server admins are not good at curating mods either 14:19 MTDiscord we'd need servers to be inventorified kinda like mods & games on CDB 14:19 MTDiscord including featured servers like CTF or AES 14:23 Zughy[m] kilbith: I consider myself pretty good at curating my mods and I'm also a server admin. I wouldn't despise some helpers though 14:24 kilbith yes you're one of the few exceptions for sure 14:24 MTDiscord Zughy[m]: Consider you entire arena stuff 14:24 MTDiscord It's pretty pointless in singleplayer 14:24 MTDiscord except for the few people who probably contribute arenas and/or games 14:25 MTDiscord The server must be advertised 14:27 Zughy[m] actually it makes sense in singleplayer too if you want to do something with a minigame inside. In the dev version you don't have to rely on signs anymore, you can use your own way of entering a queue/a match, so you could use NPCs, portals and the like. An RPG could benefit from it 14:28 Zughy[m] but I guess we're OT, sorry 14:46 kilbith https://monitor.rubenwardy.com/d/3ELzFy3Wz/contentdb?orgId=1 14:46 kilbith I can see the MC announce effect 15:07 Zughy[m] thank you Microsoft 15:08 rubenwardy there's a lot more users signing up but I can't see much of a difference in downloads 15:09 rubenwardy I should track number of reviews / comments to see activity 15:10 rubenwardy also, ContentDB is pretty monolithic and only really supports scaling up. I'd be a bit screwed if we had a 1000x increase in user demand 15:11 rubenwardy well, the bottleneck would be postgresql. I think the workers can be scaled out 15:11 rubenwardy oh and network for uploads 15:14 kilbith this is OpenMW does their post-processing framework, if one is interested: https://gitlab.com/OpenMW/openmw/-/merge_requests/1124 15:18 rubenwardy x2048: ^ 15:19 sfan5 sorry what 15:19 sfan5 I am not trusted to give opinion on the website repo? 15:19 sfan5 and apparently I better shouldn't have write permission either? 15:20 kilbith not on the website obviously 15:20 rubenwardy If it wasn't for you, there wouldn't be any one else to review my changes given Cal**'s availability 15:22 rubenwardy and sfan5 is right, you need some MTG screenshots as MTG is still packaged by default 15:22 kilbith but it's not good marketing at all 15:22 sfan5 "obviously"? how is it justified that some opinions should apprently discarded based on who raises them instead of their contents? 15:22 kilbith I never said you should not give your opinion 15:23 kilbith but demanding the write privilege is just unfair 15:24 sfan5 i don't get it then because write permission haven't ever been discussed 15:24 rubenwardy even without the content argument, the engine team needs write access to release minetest 15:25 sfan5 "Are you mad because we don’t show off bare MTG enough for you ? thinking" oh yeah I can see why the provocative comments 15:25 sfan5 if all you're gonna contribute is division between core devs then fuck off 15:25 kilbith interrogating comment * 15:26 rubenwardy sfan5's review comments were all valid and good, and is someone who can be trusted on the website 15:26 rubenwardy if you want less MTG, then we need to work to dethrone it first 15:27 sfan5 we already have less MTG, one screenshot is enough 18:13 nrz What i "liké" In Oss bureaucracy for nothing spécial blocking interesting contributions, just because of organization. Gg kilbith, a useless drama 18:30 celeron55 well, what do you think, when can MTG be dropped from being shipped by default? 18:30 celeron55 menu redesign seems to have the role of the magic bullet at the moment 18:31 celeron55 i think i've said so somewhere myself 18:32 celeron55 currently, if no game came with the engine, the new user's reaction would be even more "wat" than currently 18:33 celeron55 making mtg look nicer is an easy option. not sure what effects that would have, hopefully it wouldn't make it any more popular 18:45 MTDiscord Making MTG look nicer would not solve anything, IMHO. Vanilla MTG lacks content. 18:58 MTDiscord I'm currently working on implementing popular menu redesigns (sort of a hybrid of tacotexmex's and zughy's designs) 18:59 rubenwardy oh boy, rolling your own design 19:12 Pexin can't mtg just be renamed to something like "official barebones" or such? 19:12 Pexin make it more obvious to users how MT works 19:13 sfan5 "you mod mtg and that's it" isn't how mtg works, but that's the impression it would leave 19:13 MTDiscord Rubenwardy: its not really my own design. Its literally just zughys design with tacos sidebar 19:14 freshreplicant[m sfan5: But you'd hardly ever play it vanilla, right? 19:14 MTDiscord But inevitably it will end up evolving 19:24 MTDiscord Idea check: is there anything against replacing irr with bgfx? Does it make sense to resesrch this path? 19:25 rubenwardy bgfx seems quite well supported. I think it invokes the usual issue of replacing irrlicht with anything: the effort required 19:25 sfan5 freshreplicant[m: the point that we want to leave is "Minetest is an engine and there's difference games for it" and not "This is the base game and you can mod it" 19:26 sfan5 I supposed bgfx is an alternative to writing our own renderer, but that doesn't make it an exact Irrlicht replacement 19:27 sfan5 that's no issue though because we plan to assimilate the (rest of) IrrlichtMt anyway 19:27 rubenwardy yeah that's what I gather 19:27 * MidasTouchHomeco posted a file: (36KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/oQHSJDbDFzrewclcOnIhNKfY/EXAMPLE.html > 19:27 MidasTouchHomeco Why do the Minetest Docs compile so long to HTML with ASCIIDoctor? 19:27 rubenwardy also it might be worth going with something like bgfx over OpenGL as it looks like OpenGL is slowly phasing out 19:27 rubenwardy but only if it doesn't go the same way as irrlicht 19:28 rubenwardy #minetest-docs 19:28 MidasTouchHomeco It literally does not exist. 19:28 MidasTouchHomeco I cannot find the channel. 19:28 sfan5 Minecraft usees the library too so I guess we won't be alone with that problem ;) 19:29 rubenwardy yeah exactly, bgfx seems well supported 19:29 schwarzwald[m] MidasTouchHomeco: Maybe it isn't bridged to Matrix. I'll get in contact with someone else in the docs group and let them know. 19:30 rubenwardy also x2048 I want to say thanks for your efforts with graphics, espcially the post processing PR lately, it's good to see 19:30 MidasTouchHomeco schwarzwald[m]: Ok, I'll try to delete and resend in the Docs channel from Discord itself.] 19:30 MidasTouchHomeco > <@schwarzwald:matrix.org> Maybe it isn't bridged to Matrix. I'll get in contact with someone else in the docs group and let them know. 19:30 MidasTouchHomeco * Ok, I'll try to delete and resend in the Docs channel from Discord itself. 19:31 sfan5 yep, it's great to have a dedicated graphics person willing to work on big things 19:32 sfan5 thanks x2048 19:52 MTDiscord sfan5 rubenwardy: thanks for the appreciation ? 19:53 MTDiscord regarding bgfx, I thought about making a bgfx irrlicht driver as a possible path before we dissolve irrlicht entirely. 21:17 Zughy[m] GreenXenith: oh no, another design. Also, screens first please 21:17 MTDiscord Again, its not really another design 21:18 MTDiscord Its your page layout with tex's nav 21:18 MTDiscord For now 21:26 rubenwardy updated #11955 21:26 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11955 -- Update and improve warnings when no games are found or when only devtest is installed by rollerozxa 21:28 MTDiscord I'd suggest core devs to generally start editing PRs the way ruben just did 21:28 MTDiscord No need for the suggestion - commit suggestion ping pong if the suggestion isn't a suggestion but rather an obvious fix 21:29 MTDiscord The "allow edits by maintainers" checkmark exists for a reason ;) 21:32 rubenwardy it also took me 2 months to get around to it 21:39 MTDiscord hooray! 21:54 schwarzwald[m] What's the status on the Debian release of Minetest? Have they been updating it or does IrrlichtMt need to be merged first? 21:56 sfan5 https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/minetest 21:56 sfan5 >[2022-06-01] minetest 5.5.0+dfsg+~1.9.0mt4+dfsg-1 MIGRATED to testing 21:57 MTDiscord I wrote up a (few-ish) solution to the keyboard inputs problem 21:57 MTDiscord if anybody is interested: #12488 21:57 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/12488 -- Additional keybinds; keyboard, and touchscreen support 22:03 schwarzwald[m] Glad to see that they already upgraded, sfan. I'll be excited to have it in the next stable when it finally comes out.