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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2022-01-17

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Time Nick Message
00:00 MTDiscord <Jonathon> exactly
00:00 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Take the advise of those who have been down this road before and let it die?
00:00 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Put your efforts elsewhere
00:02 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> MTG, in name, legacy, contents, and role hurts the Minetest community as a whole. Something new doesn't.
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06:32 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> how's the current plan for dynamic shadows looking like? is it still going to be compiled out right before release?
07:17 celeron55 i see no further response from the game team to appguru being added so i'll do it
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08:44 sfan5 "compiled out" looks like will be the case yes
08:54 MTDiscord <ElCeejo> > compiling out a feature you just added
08:54 MTDiscord <ElCeejo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzgwYhDyLH0
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10:00 MTDiscord <Sublayer plank> I feel ashamed to be sharing the discord bridge with you
10:13 sfan5 you can always join IRC directly ;)
10:14 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. https://dev.minetest.net/ https://github.com/minetest | FEATURE FREEZE IN EFFECT (as of 2022-01-15)
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12:37 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> SpatialAreaStore never defines the id_type it passes to the RTree constructor.
12:38 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> And I suspect this is the cause of a NotSupportedException I got while writing unit tests.
13:02 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> That may not be it.
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13:51 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> That's not it. It has something to do with brace ininialization, initializer lists, and possibly default constructors and inheritance.
13:51 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> In other words, the usual C++ terrors.
13:53 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> If anybody has an idea why MySubClass var {}; would exhibit different behavior than MySubClass var; please do explain.
13:59 erlehmann josiah_wi is this a direct initialization without calling constructor thing?
14:00 erlehmann oh, ignore my musing, i thought of structs
14:00 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Sorry, misread this whole time.
14:00 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> It's a different test that's failing.
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16:08 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Do the core devs have a strong preference about whether private members should be listed before or after public ones?
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18:09 rubenwardy we haven't released for 11 months, imo waiting an extra week for a dynamic shadows API to finalise isn't that significant
18:09 rubenwardy how stable are shadows?
18:15 erlehmann i think the more important question is: have features unrelated to shadows that were broken all been fixed?
18:16 erlehmann i recall x2048 having done some work on anaglyph mode recently?
18:16 erlehmann shipping something where existing features break due to a new feature is IMO way worse than shipping a partially broken new feature
18:17 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> My question is: why disable shadows instead of marking them as experimental and subject to change?
18:17 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> "These aren't perfect, but you can mess around with them since they're here while we finish them up"
18:18 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Sure, some games look bad with them turned on, but tonemapping got merged despite being a completely useless feature now didn't it?
18:19 erlehmann past mistakes do not justify future mistakes
18:19 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^ for once i can agree
18:20 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Sure, but don't ignore my other point please.
18:21 MTDiscord <Jonathon> im fine with shadows in 5.5 if something like https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11944 is merged so that games/mods have control instead of the usual minetest pulling the rug out from under game/mods devs with client things they cant work around
18:21 rubenwardy #11944 is the ideal implementation
18:21 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11944 -- Proposal: API to control shadow intensity from the game/mod by x2048
18:21 rubenwardy well, minus the inefficiency if the client enables servers but the server disables them
18:21 rubenwardy (as they won't be compiled out)
18:22 MTDiscord <luatic> enables shadows you mean?
18:22 rubenwardy yeah
18:22 rubenwardy and compiled out in GLSL
18:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Considering I had accidentally left shadows on and suffered mystery performance loss, it does seem like the current implementation is rather error-prone to leave it entirely in the hands of users.
18:22 rubenwardy there's not much you can do to fix that without recompiling shaders at run time
18:22 MTDiscord <luatic> I'm pretty sure the client could compile it out
18:22 rubenwardy it can't
18:22 MTDiscord <Jonathon> maybe 11944 should be added to 5.5 roadmap then?
18:22 MTDiscord <luatic> Recompiling at run time is fine though
18:23 rubenwardy that's not what the PR does
18:23 MTDiscord <luatic> My shader media PR did that when it received dynamic media
18:23 MTDiscord <luatic> It's very much possible
18:23 MTDiscord <luatic> The PR should do that then
18:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If all it's doing is hiding the effects of shadows without disabling the performance drain, then that's exactly zero help to me, as I've already gotten that much working just using the existing APIs.
18:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11699 is already in 5.5, seems reasonable to allow a competing choice as with the fonts issue
18:24 MTDiscord <Jonathon> warr1024: everyone is not nodecore where they can disable time
18:24 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Is 2022 est31 the right thing to put in the copyright notice?
18:25 MTDiscord <luatic> dew those copyright notices, that's what the git history is for IMO
18:25 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> This is for new files.
18:25 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I have at least one counterexample to your "everyone is not NodeCore" assertion :-D
18:25 MTDiscord <luatic> I suppose you should just add your name there, and keep the date if it's a derivative
18:25 MTDiscord <luatic> So 1942 est32, 2022 josiah_wi
18:25 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Names aren't listed anyway.
18:26 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> This is engine code.
18:26 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ok and? just because a janky hack works for you doesnt mean it works for everyone else
18:27 MTDiscord <luatic> you didn't get the joke, did you?
18:27 MTDiscord <Warr1024> You're right.  We should use a different hanky hack instead, for certain.
18:27 MTDiscord <luatic> logically speaking, your assertion was "for everyone it holds that they are not NodeCore", instead of "not everyone is NodeCore
18:27 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Oh, some files have a name.
18:28 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Games need APIs for a lot of graphical settings, not just shadows. I feel like that should be one player:set_graphics function rather than one specific to shadows. Pushing a poor API choice because everyone is going to complain like it's CSMs all over again is a bad idea IMO
18:29 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If we can't bypass the performance cost of computing shadows rather than just doing all the work and zeroing out the visual end result, we're still putting a footgun in the hands of users, and if we're considering doing extra work to do the zeroing thing, we should at least consider disabling the footgun part too.
18:30 MTDiscord <Jonathon> seems this is something that needs to be worked out, as it was in set sky, now in set_lighting(),
18:30 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> If a player enabled shadows, and it looks bad, so what? They can disable it. Yes I'd like control of the graphical settings, but that shouldn't be for just one thing because shadows is the only one anyone has felt the need to actually listen to this plea on for once.
18:31 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If we can, say, cut the performance impact of shadows by like 80% by stubbing out shit in a special case where intensity == 0.0 that might be good enough for a duct tape solution at least...
18:32 MTDiscord <Jonathon> this is a question of how long do you want to delay 5.5 further 🤷
18:32 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Hell, I'd take a prototype graphics override function that only controls one or two things but can be improved after release
18:32 MTDiscord <Warr1024> As it is I currently have to choose between making the game robust against incorrect settings but turning shadows into a silent fail, or making it easy to see what your settings are but having no way to know that shadows are meant to be turned off.
18:33 MTDiscord <Jonathon> this is probably the fastest way to release 5.5
18:33 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> If something looks bad because players enabled something clearly marked as experimental, that is entirely their fault.
18:33 MTDiscord <Warr1024> player:set_graphics() seems fine to me, even if shadows are the only thing it controls.  set_sky and friends aren't necessarily all super rich APIs but they're at least extensible.
18:34 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If you can get shadows hidden off the quick settings screen and mark it experimental that'd probably work alright too.
18:34 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Hidden in "all settings" for now seems fine
18:35 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I don't love it but I get it
18:35 MTDiscord <Jonathon> except it will probably come back to bite like you cant tell 5.2 and 5.3 apart
18:36 rubenwardy hecks is adamantly against hiding it in all settings, he wants it compiled out
18:36 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> Why?
18:36 MTDiscord <Jonathon> or controled ^
18:36 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> wsor: If we get protocol bumps for 5.5 -> 5.6, I think we're fine
18:36 rubenwardy https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11365
18:36 MTDiscord <Jonathon> benrob: i suppose, but then that means kicking clients instead of something that could have been turned off
18:37 MTDiscord <Jonathon> i would be nice to support all the way back to 5.4 from 5.6 as stuff like dynamic media with the new apis works with the older client
18:37 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> You'd kick someone for having "wrong" graphics settings?
18:38 MTDiscord <Jonathon> people already do this for formsepcs
18:38 MTDiscord <Jonathon> *formspecs
18:39 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I get technical reasons, like not wanting to convert coordinate types or needing a new element or dynamic media, but for graphics settings?
18:39 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Sounds like iron-gripping your users to me
18:39 MTDiscord <Jonathon> when you get 20 complaints your game looks like garbage because im dumb and turned this on......
18:40 MTDiscord <Jonathon> or you want 5.5 to not have shadows and 5.6 to because of some improvement
18:40 MTDiscord <Jonathon> easier to just support the newest version of mt that tell users to not enable something
18:40 MTDiscord <Jonathon> that you have no control over
18:41 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I already have no control over client graphical settings, frankly texture filtering is a much worse problem than shadows but I'm not saying that they need to be compiled out because they're useless for most games.
18:41 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Even though they are
18:42 MTDiscord <Jonathon> im just advocating for a full measure either way than a half measure
18:42 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Heh ironically if I were not allowed to play a game with texture filtering on, that would probably push me toward different games.
18:43 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Shadows perform bad and look out of place at worse. I'd like a set_graphics function, but I've wanted one for years and it's likely to be controversial at best.
18:43 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm advocating for half measures over full measures because our obsession with full measures or bust is why we keep ending up with no measures.
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18:44 MTDiscord <Jonathon> heh, sorta fair point
18:44 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If we're talking 5.6, then set_graphics.  If we're talking 5.5, bury it and ship it already...
18:44 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> A half measure is fine, just not one that will bite us in the ass immediately
18:45 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> If it bites us in the ass 5 minutes from now that's one thing, but I'd like to have those 5 minutes of non ass biting
18:45 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Buried settings is the politically easy half measure.  Nuking it and reading in 5.6 is easier to handle technically, but since it's already been hyped, expect backlash.
18:45 MTDiscord <Jonathon> could expose the compile out as a option when compiling with stuff like different db backends
18:46 MTDiscord <Warr1024> re-adding*
18:46 MTDiscord <Jonathon> this way its only available to people who compile there own clients and then enable it in settings
18:47 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Oh, non-default compile option might not be a terrible middle ground ... though the cost of extra compile process complexity, I wonder about...
18:47 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Adding flags/options anywhere always sucks at least a little from a maintenance perspective.
18:48 MTDiscord <Jonathon> well yeah, but right after 5.5 releases you can just revert it in favor of the api
18:48 MTDiscord <Jonathon> which is what the compile out option is
18:48 MTDiscord <Jonathon> *hard code out
18:48 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Anyways, I've given my 2 cents. I don't care that much either way, I've tweaked IKEA to handle them nowadays and don't use them except to test since they need some major optimisations as of right now :P
18:50 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If there's something we can do to appease the portions of the community already hyped about this, without handing everyone an unlocked footgun, that'd be ideal.  Either way I'd hate to delay 5.5 another X months again over one feature, so as far as I'm concerned whatever we can do to make something work... :-|
18:50 MTDiscord <Jonathon> turn minetest into a rolling release platform with a updater lol
18:51 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I do wonder if "middle ground" games that both need to disable shadows (don't use default skybox) but also can't use the existing duct tape (don't override sky completely) are really a thing...?
18:51 MTDiscord <Jonathon> ^terrible sarcastic idea
18:53 erlehmann Warr1024 what do you mean middle ground games?
18:53 erlehmann Warr1024 mineclonia/mineclone2/mineclone5 all have solar panels and mob spawning based on light intensity. i.e. where it is dark, mobs spawn.
18:54 erlehmann and also the solar panels do not produce light
18:54 erlehmann so if someone where to enable shadows and they shade an area, they could erroneously conclude it is unsafe
18:54 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean a game that wants to disable shadow mapping because it doesn't make sense for its skybox, but for which it can't override time of day to hack out shadows.
18:55 erlehmann well we can't hack out the skybox in mineclonia to get no shadows because we have day/night mechanics
18:55 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The actual shadow intensity is low enough that it's unlikely to mislead players gameplay-wise unless they have an inhuman sense of absolute light intensity.
18:56 erlehmann uh, there are 15 light levels and basically there is a specific shade (7 or 8) that means mobs spawn
18:56 erlehmann humans are very good at contrasts
18:56 erlehmann i am not, but most people are
18:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Mineclonia would be fine with shadows enabled.  It's really only an issue for games that have skyboxes where there is no directional source.
18:56 erlehmann alter? inside the box?
18:56 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Humans are good at contrasts and terrible at absolutes, hence why shadows aren't really a gameplay issue.
18:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Alter and ITB bot use fully custom skyboxes so there's no reason they can't use the TOD hack.
18:57 erlehmann well, i am looking forward to getting bug reports about areas being too dark if shadows are a) compiled in and b) enabled by default
18:57 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm looking for a hybrid case that breaks the 2 molds for which working cases have been identified.
18:57 erlehmann i don't care if they are not enabled by default because then i need to do exactly nothing for it to stay the same
18:58 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> They aren't, and should never be enabled by default
18:58 erlehmann let me check
18:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Don't expect reports of areas too dark.  Expect reports of low fps.  That's one reason why I don't see them ever enabled by default.
18:58 erlehmann well i develop on a thinkpad t60 and cora recently got an even worse computer lol
18:58 MTDiscord <Warr1024> They'll be enabled by default probably around the same time trilinear and MSAA are.
18:58 erlehmann so we are aware of performance issues ^^
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19:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The biggest obstacle I can see to possibly using the TOD hack is if you support multiple skyboxes for different players at the same time, some of whom would have directional lighting and some who would not.  If you can just set TOD to 5:00AM for all players all the time and control sky light intensity via day night ratio and use a custom skybox, then you fall into the scope of where the hack would probably work.
19:02 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Nobody likes an ugly workaround but I'd definitely prioritize issues with no workaround over ones with an ugly workaround.
19:03 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I'd rather not encourage ugly workarounds when it's trivial to just mark something as experimental
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19:05 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I mean yeah, other than the fact that you're implying that marking something as experimental is NOT an ugly workaround in itself, that seems fine.
19:06 erlehmann “support multiple skyboxes for different players at the same time, some of whom would have directional lighting and some who would not” – mineclonia does that, but we are in luck. the end dimension is underground. i HOPE that means it never has shadows.
19:06 erlehmann like there is 21 kilometers of end sky above it i think
19:07 erlehmann can someone tell me if shadows work the way i think they work, even if the terrain above has not been generated?
19:07 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Haha, I ... honestly have no idea what shadows do with caves and such.  I think it's based on whether there's visible terrain in a certain direction.
19:07 erlehmann uh oh
19:07 erlehmann well then the mcl* mods may be your case
19:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I guess you'd have to just test it to see.
19:08 erlehmann just for illustrative purposes: the end sky is literally TV static and it is a dimension where you have no day or night
19:08 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If it doesn't work with dimensions then yeah, that'd probably be an issue that we can't be the first ones to think of.
19:09 erlehmann oh also the nether sky is just red. no day or night too.
19:09 erlehmann it is a hell dimension
19:09 erlehmann but usually you do not see the sky because there is caves all around
19:09 erlehmann but i will test the end thing
19:09 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Yes, we need that set_graphics function
19:10 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> We also need a allow_filtering in tiles def
19:10 erlehmann what's the thing with filtering?
19:10 MTDiscord <Warr1024> That sounds like a good enough case then to advocate for burying shadows and discouraging users from digging them out until 5.6 at least...
19:10 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Filtering makes pixel art..not pixel art
19:10 erlehmann oh yeah lol
19:10 erlehmann thinks i hate it
19:10 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Unless you really crank up the minimum texture size
19:10 erlehmann thanks
19:10 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Filtering is another footgun.  It's possible but non-trivial to filter properly.
19:11 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> It's needed for higher-res textures though
19:11 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> "needed"
19:11 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Users need to know some arcane settings, or modders need to bake in features into textures that may not be universally desirable, to ensure filtering doesn't make stuff look ass.
19:11 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> So you have to enable it for some games (like moontest) and disable it for most others
19:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Being able to specify when a texture should or shouldn't be filtered would be nice
19:12 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Because not all textures are alike
19:12 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Or really if we could just have the option of a non-ass filtering shader ;-)
19:13 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> No no, I'd like to keep the ass-filtering shader thank you :P
19:13 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Basically we need to be able to specify that the game should only render a thing in a way that yields crisp edges, though some AA could be tolerable if it's done properly.
19:13 erlehmann well
19:13 erlehmann not necessarily
19:13 erlehmann take chests
19:14 erlehmann chests need crisp edges for the outlines of a lock and so on
19:14 erlehmann but the body is usually more of a pixel mush
19:14 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I may add a higher resolution texture for certain effects in a game for visual effect, but still keep a mostly pixel art style. I'd like to be able to specify what can and can't be filtered
19:14 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> This seems like the ideal thing to add to a tile def
19:14 erlehmann i agree
19:14 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Maybe I should make an issue
19:14 erlehmann yes please do
19:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Really the biggest problem probably comes from the fact that filters treat RGBA naively and if the RGB values were discarded for fully transparent pixels, you get weird halo effects.  There's a hack in the engine to mitigate that but it's not foolproof.
19:15 erlehmann i saw enough mineclonia screenshots with horrible horrible filtering
19:15 erlehmann and we have both stuff that needs filters and stuff where no one cares
19:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I wouldn't say "disallow filtering" but I would say that if filtering is allowed it has to meet certain standards for pixel preservation.
19:17 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The best tuning I've found is (1) turn on filtering, (2) enable texture clean transparent, (3) set texture min size fairly high, and (4) have a video card that can handle all that.  You can get some decent screenshots that way, but yeah, it's not necessarily accessible to everyone.
19:17 MTDiscord <Warr1024> The problem is when you want higher quality than you can spend the silicon on, you end up needing to know what compromises in setting are okay and which are gonna suck.
19:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Texture min size basically upscales all your textures at load time into an HD pack using NN, so you get a nearest-up-linear-down effect and it ensures integer scaling.  That cuts way down on blur but obviously costs memory.
19:19 erlehmann CSS has an example for that
19:20 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I've seen shaders that do that trick, but dynamically so it gets the same effect, requires no fine tuning, and no extra memory, but of course it's a compute/memory trade-off.
19:21 erlehmann https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/image-rendering
19:21 erlehmann image-rendering: auto;
19:21 erlehmann image-rendering: crisp-edges;
19:21 erlehmann image-rendering: pixelated;
19:22 erlehmann oh it lists also “smooth” and “high-quality”
19:22 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> #11968
19:22 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11968 -- Add `allow_filtering` Option to Tiles Definition
19:22 MTDiscord <Warr1024> CSS is where I got the "crisp edges" name from, but specific implementations may need to be allowed to vary on how exactly that's achieved.  We want AA to be allowed if possible but not mandatory, but not arbitrary blurring is definitely anathema.
19:23 erlehmann but that is the whole point of css
19:23 erlehmann it has this enum with stuff that was deemed to apply to a wide range of things
19:23 MTDiscord <Warr1024> That's probably fair
19:23 erlehmann excepd for “pixelated” which is nearest neighbour, it says nothing about the algorithms that locks you in
19:24 erlehmann so … Benrob0329 would you edit your issue so that it is not a boolean?
19:24 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Feel free to comment on alternatives
19:24 erlehmann the CSS thing was a boolean in the beginning too
19:24 erlehmann then they realized that is not enough
19:25 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I'm not convinced that MT would actually use it, but I'm not against it either.
19:26 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I suppose my suggestion is an MVP, if whoever implements this want to shoot for more then that's fine by me.
19:27 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I'll add a note about CSS's property though
19:30 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm in favor of MVPs so long as we just don't paint ourselves into a weird compat corner.  Probably a bool could be okay in the same way we once got away with it for use_texture_alpha and seem to have survived that transition too.
19:31 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Using string values is more future-proof, but also YAGNI
19:36 MTDiscord <Jonathon> use_texture_alpha has issues with older clients
19:36 MTDiscord <Jonathon> but its very slight
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19:45 erlehmann uh
19:45 erlehmann the stringly typed solution is *entirely* future proof if you have a default value, which you need to have anyway
19:47 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Strongly typed just makes you feel stupid though if you never end up with more than 2 different supported values.
19:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Reminds me too much of people trying to invent their own book types using the strings "Yes" and "No".  One case I ran into of that also did checks like == "No" and != "yes" in different places and I could never actually decipher it.
19:48 MTDiscord <Warr1024> also [sic]
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20:04 erlehmann stringly typed
20:04 erlehmann not strongly typed
20:04 erlehmann and yes i want smooth, crisp-edges and pixelated
20:04 erlehmann all 3 make sense for mineclonia
20:08 MTDiscord <luatic> Smooth for GUIs?
20:09 erlehmann more for some kind of overlays
20:09 erlehmann or effects
20:09 erlehmann crisp edges with everything that has clearly defined edges but also large not-one-color-but-almost areas like chests and presents
20:09 erlehmann or shields, tools etc.
20:10 erlehmann uh
20:10 erlehmann anyone knows what the state of the item scaling is rn?
20:10 erlehmann i remember it to be gnarly
20:11 MTDiscord <luatic> pixelated basically
20:11 erlehmann ah so the smoothie bug was fixed ig
20:12 MTDiscord <luatic> the smoothie bug was not a bug, just a mislabeled setting ;)
20:12 erlehmann uh tell?
20:12 MTDiscord <luatic> https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11753#issuecomment-1008353277
20:13 MTDiscord <Warr1024> "strongly typed" = autocorrect
20:14 erlehmann the amount at which ppl tell me that “autocorrect” messed up their words it seems more like auto-incorrect
20:14 erlehmann like some cursed thing where you do not have to tab-complete to get the word or choose it, but it changes what you type in
20:14 MTDiscord <Warr1024> It works great for non-jargon prose, which is almost half I say.
20:14 erlehmann is it like that?
20:14 MTDiscord <luatic> erlehmann: it often is
20:14 erlehmann like you type stuff and the computer *replaces* it?
20:15 MTDiscord <luatic> usually the phone but yes
20:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Yeah
20:15 MTDiscord <luatic> it "fixes" your spelling ;)
20:15 erlehmann how horrible
20:15 erlehmann no offense, but it sounds like something really bad to use
20:15 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Also that "regression" you posted is a regression that counter-regresses another regression.
20:15 erlehmann i have only used autocomplete on maemo and there it was that you type the beginning of a word the rest becomes visible and you can press a key to get to it, like tab complete
20:16 erlehmann but the other stuff i saw was that you *chose* the word, not that it silently replaces what you typed
20:16 erlehmann so this is news to me
20:16 MTDiscord <Warr1024> If on screen keyboards had tactile texture then it wouldn't be so much of an issue...
20:17 erlehmann must be a horrible thing if you have two words that are similar but use one slightly more often than the other haha
20:17 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> I disable auto-correction and just manually select the correct one if need be
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20:18 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Anyway there is a lot of argument in MT about what to do when you can't exactly integer scale a thing.  You have to choose between blurry and jagged, and each side is convinced that the other way is obviously wrong.  At least we have options now, which is probably the only way that would ever get solved.  Having those options actually work in all cases would be icing on the cake...
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20:19 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Hmm I guess I can try "suggest but don't correct" and see how it goes but I miss the suggestion bar often and end up with words spelled like th5
20:20 Pexin erlehmann: when people txt me and then go "oops autocorrect", every time I internally react violently: why would anyone ever use or make such a thing. if for no other reason than wasted cpu..
20:22 rubenwardy you say that, but using a phone without autocorrect is so painful
20:23 Pexin using a touchscreen for Anything is painful
20:23 erlehmann rubenwardy there is a difference between autocorrect (changes what you write) and autocomplete (any prefix/phoneme based input method)
20:24 erlehmann both work on touch devices and the latter rarely have the issues of the former (namely, the wrong words come out)
20:24 MTDiscord <Warr1024> I'm trying without autocorrect now and now it's becoming painfully clear to me how hard it is to actually type correct words into an onscreen keyboard.  Suggestions help but I have to go back and correct a lot.
20:24 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> Touchscreens could be great and make a lot of out keyboard vs mouse interface issues go away since you can have dedicated buttons for whatever and hit as many of them as you have fingers, but they often don't
20:24 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> *our
20:25 Pexin I miss my first mobile with hardware keypad
20:25 erlehmann Warr1024 do you have an autocomplete option?
20:25 MTDiscord <Benrob0329> They also suck for when you want to separate your UI from your display, since they inherently can't do that
20:28 MTDiscord <Warr1024> Okay, autocorrect reenabled, since the error rate without it was higher than with
20:32 erlehmann luatic if it “did not do that in 5.4” this sounds like a regression? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11753#issuecomment-1008353277
20:33 sfan5 not every change of behaviour is a regression
20:39 MTDiscord <Warr1024> That workorder is somebody enabling a setting, then filing a bug report that enabling the setting caused the setting to take effect ...
20:39 sfan5 merging #11958, game#2745 in 10m
20:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/2745 -- Redo player_api by appgurueu
20:39 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11958 -- Optimize folder handling in 'files' mod storage backend by sfan5
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22:35 erlehmann we are having load spikes, is there anything in the minetest *engine* that could make it lag about every ten minutes?
22:45 erlehmann Warr1024 could the 10 min spikes here have something to do with shadows/daylight or not at all? https://monitoring.minetest.land/d/YUpouLmWk/lua-server-monitoring-mod?var-instance=oysterity&amp;orgId=1&amp;refresh=10s
23:41 MTDiscord <savilli> looks more like lua gc
23:43 proller joined #minetest-dev
23:58 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> What's good practice for ensuring thread safety? I have a class that wraps a resource that isn't thread safe, and I have a method to return a raw pointer to that resource.
23:59 MTDiscord <josiah_wi> I have some concerns about this design.

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