| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:03 |
v-rob |
libunistring is an optional dep of gettext |
| 00:07 |
v-rob |
OK, here's what I'm going to do: I'm going to use ICU for my development for now, since it's entirely available everywhere, and I'll attempt to write things in such a way that I can change to the GNU libraries if need be. |
| 00:08 |
v-rob |
I guess it's a good thing c55 took a quick look over everything. I didn't think of those things... |
| 00:46 |
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| 00:52 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Does anyone know of an issue offhand with requiring spatial index on all our currently supported platforms? |
| 01:06 |
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| 01:15 |
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| 01:30 |
Calinou |
ICU + harfbuzz will give you best results, but harfbuzz isn't small |
| 01:31 |
Calinou |
ICU data also takes a few megabytes, but that should be fine for Minetest |
| 02:34 |
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| 03:05 |
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| 03:25 |
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| 03:26 |
kilbith |
hey v-rob, I'm still waiting for the formspec_version bump; that's important for me |
| 03:27 |
v-rob |
Thanks for reminding me; will do soon |
| 03:29 |
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| 05:00 |
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| 08:20 |
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| 09:51 |
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| 10:09 |
celeron55 |
v-rob: i don't think the situation with libunistring is so bad you have to avoid it, but you do need to plan what the recommended windows build process will be |
| 10:09 |
celeron55 |
(and other platforms also) |
| 10:09 |
celeron55 |
if you don't feel like figuring out build processes then icu probably makes more sense |
| 10:18 |
celeron55 |
i'm guessing building libunistring for windows isn't much of a hassle |
| 10:18 |
celeron55 |
and for android? no idea |
| 10:57 |
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| 10:59 |
sfan5 |
x2048: sure you can add that to the milestone, but that's mainly just we don't forget |
| 11:00 |
sfan5 |
since it has my and your (implicit) approval you can also just merge it right now |
| 11:01 |
sfan5 |
huh I thought the "announce merges 5..15 min before doing them" was actually written down |
| 11:01 |
sfan5 |
but the written down part only applies to trivial patches pushed spontanously |
| 11:02 |
sfan5 |
(expected it to be here https://dev.minetest.net/Git_Guidelines) |
| 11:06 |
celeron55 |
i think that's intentional |
| 11:07 |
sfan5 |
I never knew! |
| 11:07 |
celeron55 |
it of course doesn't hurt to announce a merge |
| 11:08 |
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| 11:08 |
celeron55 |
especially if it's something someone might want to discuss still |
| 11:13 |
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| 11:19 |
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| 11:54 |
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| 11:55 |
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| 11:55 |
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| 12:02 |
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| 12:10 |
x2048 |
sfan5: thank you, then I'll merge #11961 now. |
| 12:10 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11961 -- Reset override material in anaglyph by x2048 |
| 12:25 |
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| 13:05 |
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| 13:31 |
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| 14:52 |
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| 15:25 |
sfan5 |
pushing https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/b02b381af26c792d7f7feaa93198bb7efb2512de in a few minutes |
| 16:17 |
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| 16:31 |
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| 17:20 |
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| 17:38 |
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| 17:45 |
Pexin |
ls |
| 17:52 |
erlehmann |
wrong window Pexin |
| 17:53 |
Pexin |
OH NO! |
| 17:53 |
Pexin |
:] |
| 17:57 |
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| 18:22 |
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| 19:36 |
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| 19:42 |
v-rob |
celeron55: I'm approximately the worst at working with build systems. For the first two years of my contributing, my workflow was 1) push work to GitHub, 2) pull onto a Linux VM, 3) recompile from scratch using a one-liner script, all because I couldn't figure out how to compile on Windows. I've improved since then, but I'm still pretty iffy in general. So unless someone else finds a way to build libunistring, I'm sticking with ICU :) |
| 19:42 |
celeron55 |
i think sfan5 could probably come up with some useful opinions about this but i don't know if he wants to focus on this right now |
| 19:43 |
v-rob |
Anyhow, it's not a huge deal either way. I can work with ICU well enough, and it's not a bad choice in any case. |
| 19:43 |
Krock |
isn't there vcpkg support now to ease library integration on Windows? |
| 19:44 |
v-rob |
libunistring isn't on it |
| 19:44 |
v-rob |
Well, it is, but not for Windows |
| 19:44 |
Krock |
where do you need that dependency? |
| 19:44 |
sfan5 |
figuring out how to build libunistring when it's needed won't be a problem |
| 19:45 |
v-rob |
It was one of the options for the Unicode library for the GUI replacement |
| 19:45 |
sfan5 |
it not being on vcpkg is bad for MSVC users because it invalidates the point of those build instructions (easy to set up) |
| 19:45 |
v-rob |
Yeah |
| 19:46 |
sfan5 |
https://github.com/archlinux/svntogit-packages/blob/packages/libunistring/trunk/PKGBUILD#L31-L33 see this looks easy enough ;) |
| 19:46 |
v-rob |
If we change libraries, most of the Unicode library function calls are restricted to a single class I'm writing right now that does everything Unicode, so it wouldn't be too difficult to change. |
| 19:48 |
v-rob |
See, it's easy to build on Linux. But I'm not on Linux, unless I want to go back to working on a Linux VM :) |
| 19:48 |
v-rob |
I only have a single computer right now, and it's kind of required that I runs Windows because of software I'm required to use. |
| 19:49 |
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| 19:52 |
v-rob |
One of these days, I'm going to find all the people who work exclusively on Linux, lock them in a room, and force them to build all their software on Windows without the aid of a Linux command line, and have them see what they're doing to people. |
| 19:54 |
erlehmann |
look if you have git, you have sh |
| 19:54 |
erlehmann |
and i write most of my software in pure sh |
| 19:55 |
erlehmann |
so i will of course win this competition and get the prize! (a windows gaming pc that is bootlocked or something) |
| 19:56 |
v-rob |
That would defeat the purpose of the exercise. Just for that, I'd supervise you personally :) |
| 20:00 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Doesn't Bash run on Windows nowadays? |
| 20:01 |
celeron55 |
well, _linux_ runs on windows nowadays |
| 20:01 |
celeron55 |
frankly we're living in an upside down world |
| 20:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Without pulling in a VM :-) |
| 20:01 |
v-rob |
It really doesn't make it any easier in my experience |
| 20:01 |
v-rob |
Or maybe the world conspires against me. It's hard to tell |
| 20:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> No, but I'm not learning powershell thank you very much |
| 20:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> /s |
| 20:02 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> (Sort of /s, I'd rather not) |
| 20:03 |
sfan5 |
the choice of MSVC only makes it harder, even if you have a build system that abstracts it away |
| 20:03 |
sfan5 |
there is software that downright does not support msvc because of it's lousy C standard support |
| 20:04 |
v-rob |
I'd prefer to use MinGW for Minetest, but that didn't go well in the past |
| 20:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I can definitely build software on a Windows machine, it just won't have Windows on it at the end of the process. |
| 20:06 |
celeron55 |
i mean, just use it as a table to set up your linux machine on top of |
| 20:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I agree that building software intended for Linux on Windows does kinda suck, but based on my experiences back when I ran windows, building software intended for Windows on Windows kinda sucked. |
| 20:07 |
v-rob |
:D |
| 20:33 |
sfan5 |
I know nobody really cares about MTG but https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/milestone/2 needs reviews *or* agreement to revoke the "two approvals" rule |
| 20:34 |
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| 20:36 |
celeron55 |
i have a note about possibly adding appgurueu to the mtg team, which i guess could solve that. is it something you'd like? |
| 20:39 |
sfan5 |
that's an okay solution |
| 20:39 |
sfan5 |
just potentially a bit weird when MTG is on its way to the grave |
| 20:40 |
celeron55 |
well i mean, grave diggers |
| 20:41 |
freshreplicant[m |
Is it really though? On the serverlist too? |
| 20:41 |
sfan5 |
development-wise |
| 20:41 |
sfan5 |
people won't stop using it anytime soon |
| 20:43 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> i mean the more popular servers run custom mtg or override a lot of it |
| 20:44 |
celeron55 |
it will probably always be a modding base for that type of game |
| 20:44 |
celeron55 |
in a giant network of forks |
| 20:45 |
freshreplicant[m |
If it's possible to make performance improvements or optimise it, I don't think anyone would say no to that. |
| 20:46 |
freshreplicant[m |
This is MTG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYcPBE5PXhs |
| 20:48 |
celeron55 |
mtg already died and was resurrected once, a long time ago. at that time the development transferred from the core team to the (new) game team |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
i'm skeptical of any third life |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
altough all the forks basically are where it lives |
| 20:49 |
freshreplicant[m |
It's not dead though. As much as some people want it to be. |
| 20:49 |
celeron55 |
show me a proposal and a team, and i'll look at it |
| 20:49 |
freshreplicant[m |
It's still a huge chunk of the forums, Youtube (counting modded MTG). |
| 20:50 |
v-rob |
If MTG is resurrected again, we'll probably get a free rant from Wuzzy :) |
| 20:51 |
freshreplicant[m |
Why not just get more people to approve the improvements/fixes and minor tweaks people already want to make? |
| 20:51 |
freshreplicant[m |
Everything will get a rant from people, I'd almost be worried if it didn't. |
| 20:52 |
celeron55 |
can you get those people? |
| 20:52 |
sfan5 |
improvements, fixes or tweaks are not the problem (even if we had the people) |
| 20:52 |
celeron55 |
i think not that many would be interested |
| 20:52 |
sfan5 |
MTG is missing a direction as a whole |
| 20:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> ^this |
| 20:53 |
freshreplicant[m |
I don't necessarily mean making it into some massive game. I'm just talking about saying 1) PRs welcome 2) And like sfan5 said, make it easier to approve PRs. |
| 20:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> you cant please anyone |
| 20:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> . s/anyone/everyone |
| 20:54 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> so no one is happy |
| 20:54 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> its not a game its a modding base. Better to design a game, and steal code from it |
| 20:54 |
v-rob |
It has been missing a direction for about 12 years now, which is the length of Minetest's existence |
| 20:54 |
MTDiscord |
<MisterE> textrues too, if youre lazy |
| 20:54 |
celeron55 |
arguably it had a direction for about half a year |
| 20:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> besides, it would be much better fixing mte pr merging situation given sfan5 is basically defacto the main person and seems he struggles to get second approvals now |
| 20:55 |
sfan5 |
"now" |
| 20:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> for a while |
| 20:55 |
freshreplicant[m |
How many PRs have been made recently, and issues, despite the pinned "This is dead, move along" issue? |
| 20:55 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> go look yourself lol |
| 20:56 |
sfan5 |
does anyone agree that #11922 can go into 5.5 despite being a feature? |
| 20:56 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11922 -- Allow resetting celestial vault elements by leaving its arguments empty by Zughy |
| 20:56 |
freshreplicant[m |
It was a rhetorical question. |
| 20:56 |
celeron55 |
well, i'll wait until i hear from appguru |
| 20:56 |
celeron55 |
the 5.5.0 PRs need to get handled somehow |
| 20:57 |
celeron55 |
if more than that is to happen, we'll see |
| 20:57 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> issues: jul, oct, 15 days ago prs: jul, nov, 3 days ago seems not much freshreplicant |
| 20:58 |
celeron55 |
the mtg team is autonomous and fully trusted to make literally any decision about mtg so as long as there are active people there you don't really need to convince me about anything |
| 20:58 |
freshreplicant[m |
Still happening while it's dead, with a slim change of approval. |
| 20:59 |
celeron55 |
but there are reasons for the current situation |
| 20:59 |
celeron55 |
and the main reason was mentioned by sfan5 already |
| 21:01 |
freshreplicant[m |
Yeah, I said what I said in support of making it easier for PRs to get approved. |
| 21:01 |
rubenwardy |
v-rob: I moved to linux precisely because compiling on Windows was/is a pain |
| 21:01 |
freshreplicant[m |
I'm not a huge MTG advocate anymore, because I know how determined people are to double tap it and bury it six feet under, but I do sometimes think it's funny how everyone pretends it's dead already. |
| 21:02 |
freshreplicant[m |
When it still amounts to a ton of activity in the MTE universe. |
| 21:03 |
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| 21:03 |
appguru |
celeron55: Here I am |
| 21:04 |
appguru |
I would like to be on the MTG team |
| 21:04 |
appguru |
MTG should pick a direction other than "maintenance-only" sooner or later |
| 21:05 |
appguru |
But IMO, first of all, a massive cleanup would be in order |
| 21:05 |
sfan5 |
narrator: it won't |
| 21:05 |
appguru |
lol |
| 21:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> just let it die |
| 21:05 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> its screwed from the name, being default in the engine, code design, etc |
| 21:06 |
appguru |
Jonathon: Unfortunately we have no satisfying replacement yet |
| 21:06 |
appguru |
Especially considering all the MTG-tailored mods & all the MTG forks |
| 21:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> it doesnt need to be replaced tbh |
| 21:06 |
sfan5 |
well the 'being default' situation was supposed to be resolved (by the engine!) too but progress on that is stalled |
| 21:06 |
appguru |
I'm fine with MTG ceasing to be the default, that's a good idea |
| 21:06 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Once you pick a direction and start moving in that direction, you'll basically need to leave the MTG name behind, which is probably just as well. |
| 21:06 |
appguru |
But we can't kill it off |
| 21:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> your also stuck in compatibility hell |
| 21:07 |
sfan5 |
@Jonathan to many people Minetest is still a means to have a vaguely minecraft-inspired/like game, that wish won't just disappear |
| 21:07 |
appguru |
Theoretically MCL is supposed to fill that spot |
| 21:07 |
sfan5 |
turns out people don't want exactly Minecraft either ;) |
| 21:07 |
appguru |
Well, MCL is quite popular |
| 21:07 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> sfan5: i was refering more to people confusing minetest game with minetest engine, which is very common |
| 21:07 |
appguru |
It's also quite messy though |
| 21:07 |
sfan5 |
true |
| 21:08 |
appguru |
There's a forest of forks |
| 21:08 |
appguru |
Many are incomplete and/or buggy or unmaintained |
| 21:09 |
appguru |
If I'm not mistaken, most servers on the list run heavily modded MTG |
| 21:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> if you really want to continue it, honestly should build a compatibily.lua file into each mod that translates each old api call into a new one, however that will still break mods depending on texture names, node names, etc |
| 21:10 |
appguru |
True |
| 21:11 |
appguru |
As of now, 126 servers say that they use mod named "default" |
| 21:11 |
appguru |
So it's pretty safe to assume that there are at least 100 MTG servers |
| 21:11 |
wsor |
and i bet you over half of those are modified default |
| 21:11 |
appguru |
No doubt |
| 21:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Modified MTG is still MTG, from a certain perspective. Changes made to the official upstream MTG will either need to work their way down into private forks, or those forks will start running into compat issues with other mods they do want to update. |
| 21:12 |
freshreplicant[m |
Also, Minetest finally got on Wikipedia. |
| 21:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> MTG is "dead" as a code project but still pretty dominant as a "standard/protocol" |
| 21:12 |
wsor |
very old news freshreplicant[m |
| 21:13 |
freshreplicant[m |
First line: "Minetest is a free and open-source sandbox video game and game creation system developed by a team of volunteers, with significant contributions from the community.[7]" |
| 21:13 |
rubenwardy |
got on wikipedia, but incorrectly |
| 21:13 |
freshreplicant[m |
I know, my point is, it's still thought of a game by many people. |
| 21:13 |
wsor |
if you want to continue mtg, your probably best off making a fork and breaking tons of compat in it |
| 21:14 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Yes, a lot of people think of it as a game, but that's just going to take longer to fix. |
| 21:19 |
freshreplicant[m |
You could fork it, break compat, give it a total makeover. Or you could keep it in its current role, but make it more streamlined to make and approve those small fixes/optimisations/features that don't break compat. |
| 21:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> if you give it a total makeover id argue that effort is better spent on a new game from scratch anyways |
| 21:20 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> pull small sections from mtg to speed your dev up |
| 21:22 |
appguru |
But MTG is already established |
| 21:22 |
appguru |
So maintenance is the bare minimum |
| 21:29 |
freshreplicant[m |
I agree. |
| 21:59 |
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| 22:27 |
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| 23:19 |
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| 23:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> Why not take the direction you think MTG should go, and go make something with less cruft from the ground up? MTG is most commonly a modding base, so making a new one thats actually decent would likely gain some traction |
| 23:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Benrob0329> But MTG cannot be everything it wants to be, or needs to be |
