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MTDiscord |
<exe_virus> Centos 6 and Ubuntu I think 16.04 will miss us, but no biggie |
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| 14:04 |
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| 14:29 |
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| 14:29 |
erlehmann |
test |
| 14:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> success! |
| 14:29 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> Test failed successfully |
| 14:30 |
erlehmann |
I have decided to no longer bitch about wrong boundaries, but just provide well-tested patches. here is the first: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11828#issuecomment-993594718 |
| 14:30 |
erlehmann |
that way i do useful work and do not go on ppls nerves |
| 14:30 |
erlehmann |
celeron55 does this count as a trivial patch that can be merged or should make a PR? |
| 14:31 |
erlehmann |
it fixes 11828 and also mineclonia issue 183 |
| 14:33 |
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| 14:37 |
erlehmann |
<rubenwardy> I think the solution to modders misusing version strings to check for features isn't to withhold the version strings, but to make it easier to check for features |
| 14:37 |
erlehmann |
i think the solution is to actually withhold the version string AND make it easier to check for features |
| 14:37 |
erlehmann |
otherwise some lazy person is going to use the versoin string |
| 14:40 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Heh, that only works if MT actually knows what features it has. We would need like has_entity_attachments, entity_attachments_fixed, entity_attachments_working_again, entity_attachments_really_fixed_now_this_time_for_sure... |
| 14:41 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> As a gamedev the reason I need to know the version is not to know what APIs MT supports, it's to find out how those APIs actually behave so I can decide whether they're buggy enough I need to rely on fallback behavior. |
| 14:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> That's not a thing you'll be able to just "fix", either, it's an inevitability of ongoing changes to the engine and its environment. |
| 14:42 |
erlehmann |
coming from web development, i think fallback behaviour is almost always the wrong solution |
| 14:42 |
erlehmann |
progressive enhancement is the correct solution. what others see as fallback behaviour becomes the baseline, you layer your solution on top of it. |
| 14:42 |
erlehmann |
that way, it always works, built up from the lowest common denominator. |
| 14:43 |
erlehmann |
i.e. code your page in html, then apply css, then apply js. the html version must be fully working before you do the latter steps. |
| 14:43 |
erlehmann |
it means whenever js fails, it is likely that the plain html will still work. |
| 14:44 |
erlehmann |
bad web devs do the js thing first and then redirect to some stripped-down page that inevitably sucks or is eventually deprecated. |
| 14:49 |
celeron55 |
they don't even redirect you to anything these days |
| 14:49 |
celeron55 |
they just say "no content for you. go download the newest browser from our favourite vendor" |
| 14:49 |
rubenwardy |
I think it depends on the website |
| 14:50 |
rubenwardy |
that makes sense for a news website - but not for a social network. Social networks are inherently interactive, making them work with no JS desn't make sense |
| 14:50 |
rubenwardy |
the sort of person that disables JS also probably doesn't use social networks |
| 14:51 |
celeron55 |
well, sometimes i have to use facebook marketplace to get something, and F5 would provide me all the interactivity i'd need |
| 14:51 |
celeron55 |
same thing goes for almost everything |
| 14:51 |
celeron55 |
even discord would be fine with just F5 |
| 14:51 |
MTDiscord |
<Sublayer plank> some websites don't even show a message when javascript is disabled, they just give you a blank page or gray boxes where content should be |
| 14:52 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> erlehmann, sounds like you're saying the same thing that I'm saying but with different words. I want to progressively enhance what my mods do. |
| 14:53 |
celeron55 |
anything that literally needs javascript to be useful is basically a video game |
| 14:53 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> There are cases where I have to choose to either use feature A or feature B (where one of those might be "nothing" if there is no option that's beneficial). Whether you call one of those a "fallback" or the "baseline" doesn't really change the API surface that I would need to achieve that. |
| 14:58 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I actually have a counter-case re: the JS thing. I would actually prefer that websites be designed to deliver essentially a static client-side app that then talks to a JSON API on the back-end. I hate having to scrape through messy pre-baked HTML trying to script anything, and sites that are API-based can be easier to work with, depending on how they auth. |
| 14:58 |
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| 14:59 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> CDB is a good example of a compromise, in that it offers both a JSON API and pre-baked HTML views. For services that can't afford to maintain both, I'd probably rather have the JSON API if I want to seriously use it long-term. |
| 15:01 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> For a news site ... I want RSS or Atom. I've had RSS/Atom support for CDB on my todo list for ... a long time. |
| 15:16 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 i have been a backend developer. i know how to do this! you can see it with my personal page: http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin |
| 15:16 |
erlehmann |
it generates an atom xml feed first and then applies a stylesheet to it to get the xhtml out of it |
| 15:17 |
erlehmann |
that way the feed always works, since there is only one code path |
| 15:18 |
erlehmann |
i have also made a backend service for a customer that delivers json responses and then depending on the content type that the browser wanted, i gave out a html rendering of it. i can help you if you want to make something like this. |
| 15:19 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 you say you have atom support for cdb on your todo list. if i offer help, who is the maintainer? |
| 15:19 |
erlehmann |
> Social networks are inherently interactive, making them work with no JS desn't make sense |
| 15:20 |
erlehmann |
that is not true, you can use the fediverse wih it. also, you can have continuously updating content without js. otherwise early webcams would never have worked |
| 15:22 |
erlehmann |
rubenwardy with this short shell script and djb's tcpserver you can monitor a file and push updates over http to the client http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/bin/httptaild |
| 15:23 |
erlehmann |
it uses tail -f and chunked encoding, works pretty much everywhere i have tried without any js |
| 15:23 |
rubenwardy |
not sure why I'd need that |
| 15:24 |
rubenwardy |
I'm the maintainer of ContentDB, the issue is: https://github.com/minetest/contentdb/issues/224 |
| 15:24 |
erlehmann |
oh i know python, good |
| 15:25 |
erlehmann |
i rather use bottle.py than flask but i guess i can figure it out, thanks |
| 15:26 |
rubenwardy |
never heard of that one |
| 15:26 |
rubenwardy |
eh, WSGI |
| 15:26 |
rubenwardy |
I prefer to run stuff separately from nginx, and use nginx as a reverse proxy |
| 15:26 |
erlehmann |
bottle.py fills the same niche as flask, just differently opinionated |
| 15:26 |
erlehmann |
a very small web framework |
| 15:26 |
erlehmann |
single file |
| 15:27 |
rubenwardy |
well, wsgi is a standard and not necessarily tied to nginx |
| 15:27 |
erlehmann |
yes |
| 15:27 |
erlehmann |
very good |
| 15:27 |
rubenwardy |
If I were to remake ContentDB, I'd be tempted to use a more complicated framework like Django |
| 15:27 |
rubenwardy |
or NodeJS |
| 15:27 |
erlehmann |
btw, regarding turning off javascript: try opening 20 tabs on a modern computer with no js blocked. like 20 tabs of youtube. now try it with a proper script blocker. the difference is your computer lagging itself to death or not. |
| 15:27 |
rubenwardy |
my computer handles that fine |
| 15:28 |
MTDiscord |
<Jonathon> same |
| 15:28 |
erlehmann |
people always say that but then they run some ad blockers that block a lot of js anyway |
| 15:28 |
rubenwardy |
Firefox aggressively sleeps tabs |
| 15:28 |
rubenwardy |
yeah I also use an adblocker because I'm personally not a fan of viruses |
| 15:28 |
erlehmann |
not a fan? |
| 15:29 |
erlehmann |
i am waiting for someone to claim ”i do not use an adblocker, because it is untested experimental technology and it changes the code on my computer PERMANENTLY” ^^ |
| 15:30 |
erlehmann |
i trust my natural malware immunity xD |
| 15:51 |
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| 16:03 |
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| 16:11 |
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| 16:44 |
sfan5 |
when I first read #11634 I thought that was stupid but I suddenly need one myself |
| 16:44 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/11634 -- Custom error handler |
| 16:45 |
sfan5 |
sadly this doesn't seem to be easy to implement |
| 17:03 |
sfan5 |
oh god I hate async programming in lua |
| 17:03 |
rubenwardy |
are you using callbacks or coroutines? |
| 17:03 |
rubenwardy |
not that it makes too much difference |
| 17:04 |
sfan5 |
former |
| 17:07 |
Fleckenstein |
do you like JavaScript async programming better? |
| 17:08 |
sfan5 |
without await it's the exact same mess |
| 17:08 |
sfan5 |
with await, yes obviously |
| 17:09 |
Fleckenstein |
https://github.com/EliasFleckenstein03/lua_async |
| 17:09 |
Fleckenstein |
it got await |
| 17:09 |
Fleckenstein |
the error messages suck however |
| 17:10 |
Fleckenstein |
and it does not seem to work with non-LuaJIT MT for some reason |
| 17:10 |
sfan5 |
I suppose coroutines allow making this less painful? haven't ever messed with them |
| 17:12 |
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| 17:14 |
Fleckenstein |
yes |
| 17:14 |
Fleckenstein |
lua_async internally uses coroutines |
| 18:20 |
sfan5 |
okay let's see if I can make this work using coroutines |
| 18:20 |
sfan5 |
because that'd be much nicer |
| 18:23 |
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| 18:54 |
sfan5 |
static int ScriptApiBase::luaPanic(lua_State*): A fatal error occurred: LUA PANIC: unprotected error in call to Lua API (bad argument #5 to '?' (function expected, got table)) |
| 18:54 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5 -- Fixed key names so the key set menu now works. by adamnew123456 |
| 18:54 |
sfan5 |
is this a good sign? |
| 18:56 |
rubenwardy |
haha sounds about right |
| 18:57 |
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| 19:00 |
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| 19:01 |
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| 19:04 |
erlehmann |
what exactly is preventing https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11858 from being merged as a trivial bugfix? there are no performance arguments here, bounds checking is done anyways. it is only that the current number makes code buggy that previously was not. |
| 19:06 |
erlehmann |
i think most of the debates regarding where the world “should” end do not address real-world problems, i.e. game-breaking behaviour. |
| 19:09 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Heh, I actually ran into a related problem a layer of abstraction up. I want all of my logic that checks for nodes in areas or specific places to "abort" if it encounters an unloaded area, i.e. stop executing that specific registered callback for that position, but continue on to the next one. |
| 19:09 |
erlehmann |
Warr1024 do you know if the breaking of lua mapgen at map boundaries affects lighting? |
| 19:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The usual way to do this is just having to check for node.name == "ignore" or (not get_node_or_nil(...)) etc but obviously this is not an abstraction, so it's dependent on me remembering to consistently do this everywhere, and if I need to change the pattern, then I have to update thousands of lines of code. |
| 19:10 |
erlehmann |
i am thinking of the end dimension in MCL* in particular |
| 19:10 |
erlehmann |
it is technically underground |
| 19:10 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> The only lua mapgen I do is substitutions so I don't know. |
| 19:11 |
erlehmann |
oh, but substitutions are exactly what fail now |
| 19:11 |
erlehmann |
if you find them with minetest.find_nodes_in_area() |
| 19:11 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I only do my lua mapgen using the mapgen vmanip, so no. |
| 19:12 |
erlehmann |
oh, right, they have not broken that … yet |
| 19:12 |
erlehmann |
lol |
| 19:12 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> patience |
| 19:13 |
erlehmann |
what i hate in particular about this situation is that one value is practically better (less bugs) and the other is only an aesthetic choice (as there is no logical connection to use mapgen limit for this) |
| 19:13 |
erlehmann |
aesthetics (yay. using the same limit everywhere) should not trump ethics (not breaking games) |
| 19:13 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I think I also assume that areas outside of the mapchunk I'm given do not really exist, so I do kludgey stuff near mapchunk boundaries where I can't safely make assumptions about whether anything exists on the other side, so there are probably 2-wide planes for instance that don't generate lode ore every 80m because there's no way for me to be sure they wouldn't be exposed to air... |
| 19:14 |
erlehmann |
that's fair. i mean i would not decay farmland near ignore nodes because those might hold water when loaded. |
| 19:15 |
erlehmann |
i have looked at wuzzy mine shaft generation and if i remember it correctly, it starts in the middle of a mapblock and works itself outwards. similar approach i guess. |
| 19:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> Haha, yeah, the problem is I just have to go back and audit 20kLOC of game code for places where I need unloaded checks, and then once I do that doesn't absolutely prevent me from making the same mistake again later. I want there to be an abstraction that I can just use and it will handle all the subtleties for me. |
| 19:16 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I've got some hacks that would probably work but their perf costs are pretty significant. |
| 19:18 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> re: mapgen, also, there's one reason to always stick to only inside-mapchunk stuff and never even attempt to look at neighboring mapchunks even if they might be loaded: it helps ensure that maps always generate as close as possible to the same way regardless of the path by which they're explored. |
| 19:18 |
erlehmann |
oh yeah, i have noticed that some code, like village generation, will be different depending on how i approach some area. but that's not for the engine to solve, it is a mod problem. |
| 19:19 |
sfan5 |
apparently the mere presence of coroutines totally prevents certain callback things from working |
| 19:19 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> I was so thrilled when dungeons finally started generating repeatably in 5.3 that I went and reworked all the lua mapgen so all that stuff is repeatable per seed as well :-D |
| 19:19 |
sfan5 |
welp |
| 19:23 |
erlehmann |
sfan5 i do not understand https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11858#issuecomment-993818705 – the code is buggy right now and the patch fixes it for *all* possible scenarios as far as i see. any discussion of the map boundaries should be subordinate to fixing bugs introduced by an improper understanding of the map boundaries IMO. |
| 19:24 |
erlehmann |
you can still move it to whatever value later (introducing new bugs if not careful, or none if everything except the mapgen has the same boundary) |
| 19:25 |
erlehmann |
(unless the mapgen boundary is higher than whatever the other value is, of course) |
| 19:26 |
erlehmann |
so what is gained by discussing where the boundaries should be (again) now except stalling the obvious bugfix? |
| 19:27 |
erlehmann |
FYI: Fleckenstein convinced me that i should not make a game crash if code i am not responsible for misbehaves. it is an issue of ownership after all. |
| 19:28 |
sfan5 |
if you want something post in the issue, I don't want to talk about it now or here |
| 19:28 |
erlehmann |
ok |
| 19:29 |
erlehmann |
sorry |
| 19:34 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> sfan5, if you want sane-looking lua async code, you could look for a library that does promises so you can do like a .then(function()...end).then(function()...end) sort of thing. Uglier than async, but not as bad as nested chains of callbacks in my experience. |
| 19:35 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> that, at least should not require coros either. |
| 19:40 |
Fleckenstein |
Warr1024, i provide such a library |
| 19:40 |
Fleckenstein |
i linked it to sfan5 earlier |
| 19:41 |
Fleckenstein |
but i think he wants to make his own with coros |
| 19:42 |
sfan5 |
Fleckenstein: here's what I came up with https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/11859/files#diff-99c99abc6a9c22c20d2d88aaf961847b7d82e23d9e97e43cea691054ba26ecbaR27-R48 |
| 19:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> yeah, but then he said that coros break everything so ? |
| 19:42 |
MTDiscord |
<Warr1024> but on the other hand, that promise library looks nice anyway and I wonder if I can use it for something... |
| 19:42 |
sfan5 |
in case it doesn't link properly that's the `local function await(invoke)` |
| 19:43 |
Fleckenstein |
yea, it's probably better to use this instead of including a library for it |
| 19:44 |
Fleckenstein |
test this with plain lua as well as with LuaJIT tho, i've had problems with coros on Minetest + Plain Lua |
| 19:44 |
Fleckenstein |
it works with Plain Lua or with Minetest + LuaJIT, but not with Minetest + Plain Lua for some reason |
| 19:45 |
sfan5 |
the CI build that also runs the test is without luajit, so let's see |
| 19:46 |
sfan5 |
and for @Warr1024 this is what my async-proof function looked https://github.com/sfan5/minetest/blob/eab4c79df3cd32dfe451982f138b39f6d96e2f45/games/devtest/mods/unittests/init.lua#L96-L160 |
| 19:49 |
sfan5 |
I wonder how an embedding application is supposed to handle a closure being created inside a coroutine that is supposed to be called while the coroutine is suspended |
| 19:49 |
sfan5 |
because that's what causes the lua panic I showed earlier |
| 19:49 |
sfan5 |
putting it into core.after() is somehow no problem (because it's plain Lua?) |
| 19:50 |
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| 19:51 |
sfan5 |
Fleckenstein: no complaints from CI so that must be up to your specific implementation |
| 19:54 |
Fleckenstein |
if you call coroutine.yield() from a function called by some native C code, you get the attempt to yield across C call boundary error |
| 19:55 |
Fleckenstein |
e.g. lua code -> table.sort(table, callback) -> callback() -> coroutine.yield() -> error |
| 19:55 |
Fleckenstein |
for some reason the same error happens if i use my library inside of minetest + plain lua, LuaJIT however works |
| 19:55 |
Fleckenstein |
i haven't quite figured out the problem yet |
| 19:59 |
sfan5 |
the flow is lua code -> core.dynamic_add_media(..., callback); coroutine.yield() |
| 20:00 |
sfan5 |
then that callback is called from C++ later -> lua panic |
| 20:01 |
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| 20:01 |
sfan5 |
it doesn't even matter what kind of function you pass to it: an empty closure, an empty global function, core.show_formspec, ... |
| 20:01 |
sfan5 |
it all errors |
| 20:01 |
sfan5 |
so I suspect Minetest would have to do something to handle this case with coroutines, but what? |
| 20:03 |
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| 20:04 |
sfan5 |
probably this https://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html#2.9 |
| 20:06 |
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| 20:26 |
sfan5 |
wait maybe I should tried a debugger earlier, not that the error makes more sense but I can tell where it comes from |
| 20:26 |
sfan5 |
should havE* |
| 20:45 |
sfan5 |
okay so the bug is "simple": Minetest assumes there is only ever one lua_State, but this trivially violated by coroutines |
| 20:46 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> the bug might be "simple", but I suppose the fix will be fairly nontrivial... |
| 20:47 |
sfan5 |
this only matters for a few functions to begin with but yeah |
| 20:51 |
sfan5 |
in fact the situation is so unique I don't think there's more than dynamic_add_media |
| 20:52 |
sfan5 |
...which is ironically the function I picked to test |
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| 22:59 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> sfan, if you're around still, could you clarify whether you want me to keep the shared pointer change or instead re-order the code so the unique ptr can be moved? |
| 23:06 |
sfan5 |
you can leave it like this |
| 23:21 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Does breaks reordering it break something? Or is it just more work to review? |
| 23:26 |
sfan5 |
it breaks something if you're not careful, it works with std::shared_ptr |
| 23:28 |
MTDiscord |
<josiah_wi> Gotcha. Thank you! |
| 23:51 |
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