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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2021-06-08

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
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04:12 Extex Hello everyone
04:15 MTDiscord <Jonathon> Hi
04:22 Extex Got a bunch of screenshots of the shadows, thought I'd share
04:22 Extex Village shadows https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/555039171744628750/851600997259280405/Village_shadows.png
04:22 Extex A bug I found but still cool https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/555039171744628750/851600996588978197/Scuba_Lights.png
04:22 Extex Ominous building https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/555039171744628750/851600995371712533/Ominous_building.png
04:22 Extex Village Path https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/555039171744628750/851600996319887380/Village_path.png
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10:00 nrz_ i just tested shadow in ultra high, i don't understand why on a RX 6800 i'm low fps like this, i have no issue on Horizon Zero Dawn and red dead 2 in ultra ... we may have some optimizations to do
10:00 nrz_ 19 fps on one of the most powerful graphic card is very stange
10:00 nrz_ sorry 35 fps :)
10:00 nrz_ turning camera is pretty laggy
10:01 nrz_ in medium it'sp retty fine, 60 fps
10:02 nrz_ really great work liso for this
10:24 MTDiscord <Liso> put F6 3 times and take a look in to the drawcalls
10:24 MTDiscord <Liso> that's our major bottleneck right now
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12:16 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Yep, draw calls was the major complaint devsh of the irrlichtbaw fork developer. Hence why they switched to Vulcan. He might have some quick tips to help us optimize low hanging fruit
12:25 sfan5 pretty sure hecktest already commented on low-hanging fruit in one of the issues
12:26 MTDiscord <exe_virus> I personally know that we should be offloading our animated mesh skinning to the GPU, but that's a different thing entirely
12:28 celeron55 definitely look up hecktest's recommendations on that, as far as i've seen lately he had the most clue
12:36 MTDiscord <Liso> yes. IMHO the "easiest"  options are. Texture atlas to batch mapblocks and LOD.
12:37 MTDiscord <Liso> I'm doing some research about batching with texture atlas right now
13:01 sfan5 there's also some potential for the extra step for shadows, opaque nodes don't need textures so all those can be merged into a single mesh
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13:25 kilbith I think far-distance mapblocks can be converted into a giant texture and projected on billboard mesh or something
13:26 kilbith that was the technique used to optimize GTA 5 iirc
13:45 pgimeno hecktest worked on something similar
13:47 pgimeno https://irc.minetest.net/minetest-dev/2019-02-08#i_5491806
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13:56 pgimeno similar but not the same, because it uses the perlin noise instead of the actual mapblocks
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15:44 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Yeah I had thought about having mapblocks precalculate their side texture (6 textures) whenever they are saved to disk. So when you view far map blocks only the side you are looking at is rendered. It would lower needed bandwidth to send significantly is the thinking
16:17 VanessaE isn't that more or less how the far map code (the PR that didn't get merged, not farmesh) worked?
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18:08 celeron55 not really
18:09 celeron55 between mine and hecks' attempts i was most impressed by hecks' demo of drawing the horizon according to map noise
18:10 celeron55 but neither really are a solution to the amount of drawcalls
18:10 celeron55 they're just ways to draw the very far away stuff that most of the time isn't drawn at all now
18:11 celeron55 what's needed is a way to make the mid range node-by-node stuff be drawn more efficiently on fast GPUs
18:11 celeron55 and as accurately as before
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18:32 VanessaE celeron55: to be fair, whether or not the drawcalls issue is fixed, the farmap thing was a good idea -- I mean, more draw distance is always a plus
18:33 VanessaE just means instead of 500 or so meters like the original implementation could do with the then-current rendering behavior, maybe we'd be able to see out to a few km after such a rework  :)
18:33 celeron55 it definitely needs to be able to draw based on noise though
18:33 celeron55 nobody's going to want to wait for the actual map data to be generated for kilometers
18:34 VanessaE true
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18:41 MTDiscord <GreenXenith> Anyone have a saved image of hecktest's fardistance experiments? He doesnt like to use persistent image hosts
18:43 VanessaE I dunno about hecks' method, but hybriddog had something: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/6323
18:44 VanessaE (though I guess he didn't provide any reference code
18:44 VanessaE )
18:49 celeron55 well that's not really usable, actually updating a saved rendering that far isn't really feasible at any interval
18:54 VanessaE definitely not.
18:56 VanessaE your idea of rending based on perlin has its advantages for sure, but it has the drawback of not being able to, for example, show trees and other large-scale coverage since it would be impossible to know where they should be.
18:57 VanessaE (which, at distance, would basically amount to a change in the color of the far "landscape")
18:58 VanessaE now, if you have terrain that could theoretically be displayed out that far (i.e. the world has been in use for a while), surely it would be possible to "fill-in" the far render with real terrain (rendered to an image or something else super simple) as it becomes available
18:59 VanessaE (you'd only do that if the player's just puttering around within the same few mapblocks, building or mining, so that far away mapblocks could be *lazily* loaded and rendered)
18:59 MTDiscord <Jordach> just ask the fine fellows over at veloren how the hell they managed their farmap
19:00 VanessaE or, you know, you could just tell us...
19:00 MTDiscord <Jordach> i know it has a farmap-like implementation
19:00 MTDiscord <Jordach> but where it is relative to the codebase? no
19:01 VanessaE someone's bound to tell me that I don't know wtf I'm talking about, so but I shouldn't say anything more about this.
19:02 VanessaE -but
19:05 celeron55 well you can always somewhat guesstimate what the tree coverage would look like, but the ultimate goal would be to render at node level so far that there's no need to even render with color anymore and you could almost get away with something like a blue tinted heightmap
19:05 celeron55 in practice, not sure
19:05 celeron55 i'm betting for good performance it's going to be a lot of stylistic choices
19:06 MTDiscord <Jordach> little tip, veloren doesn't render trees in it's farmap
19:06 MTDiscord <Jordach> just the flat out world
19:07 MTDiscord <Jordach> as a LOD
19:07 MTDiscord <Jordach> my 1080ti can render well over half the entire server world with decent performance
19:08 celeron55 but it won't render anything player built at big distances, right?
19:09 celeron55 well given it's an RPG there's probably not much player built anyway
19:11 MTDiscord <Jordach> actually in the most recent patch you can actually build build
19:11 MTDiscord <Jordach> in specific designated areas
19:11 MTDiscord <Jordach> also it doesn't render surface world towns or decorums
19:12 MTDiscord <Jordach> just the plain landscape
19:12 MTDiscord <Jordach> instead the distant chunks that are actually "full size" are sort of faded in
19:12 MTDiscord <Jordach> so you don't notice the swap from LOD to real terrain
19:15 celeron55 well obviously
19:16 MTDiscord <Jordach> to tell you the truth however
19:17 MTDiscord <Jordach> it would be far easier to implement a network only MT client than try and fix the approaching 10 year old technical debts
19:18 MTDiscord <Jordach> the only winning move is not to play
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19:43 celeron55 rewrite being better is usually a fallacy
19:44 MTDiscord <Jordach> this may be true but since the minetest protocol is basically a glorified duck test
19:44 celeron55 heavy rework is usually much more efficient
19:44 celeron55 light rework on the other hand is often inefficient
19:44 MTDiscord <Jordach> it's like the original Build engine Ace of Spades vs the OpenSpades from scratch client
19:46 celeron55 i'd have to study those better in order to comment on that analogy
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20:21 MTDiscord <Jordach> Build engine was designed by Silverman for Duke 3D type games using its built in voxels
20:22 MTDiscord <Jordach> OpenSpades is basically a brand new implementation of everything within minus any original technical debt
20:23 nrz_ Jordach you mean rewrite the whole client and just have a library ? it's not so easy because most of the engines, OSS or not, doesn't have a lua stack in mind
20:27 MTDiscord <Jordach> Outright a new client only
20:27 MTDiscord <Jordach> It is simply the multiplayer portion only and contains the IrrMT as the built in server
20:29 MTDiscord <Jordach> But for the most part acts exactly as a current client would
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22:39 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Hurm, well at far distances noise can definitely work, but I would argue we could do better, because we might have to do better. like that only works for mapgen v7
22:42 v-rob I think an inherent problem with a lot of far-view ideas (say, the farmesh) is that they don't work with Lua mapgens.
22:43 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Right, ideally we would use a generated world for fargen, but we get into the issue of the world isn't generated yet
22:43 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Perhaps we could do it with sscsm?
22:44 v-rob It certainly isn't feasible to wait for the world to generate, especially with slower Lua mapgens.
22:44 MTDiscord <exe_virus> So each server/game could write their own .Lua fargen?
22:44 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Because it will have to be tailored to each server's style or game's style
22:45 v-rob I guess the feasibility of such a thing would depend on the complexity of the far-viewer
22:47 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Right, I figure each mapgen would just have to publish it's fargen equivalent
22:47 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Decorations couod be registered with their fargen texture so that fargen knows how to place them
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22:49 Topic for #minetest-dev is now Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. https://dev.minetest.net/
22:49 MTDiscord <exe_virus> The only piece remaining is areas that have been generated before. Those would have a fargen texture cached on each map update (or periodically) and sent to the client. When a client receives a "real texture" they replace that part of their fargen with the texture.
22:49 MTDiscord <exe_virus> Also, we'd want the fargen textures to only update like every second and just move relative to the player during that time
22:49 MTDiscord <exe_virus> But that's just my take on it from a high level standpoint
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