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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2020-11-01

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Time Nick Message
01:07 olliy joined #minetest-dev
01:12 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Mfw that PR would get shut down by you know who for reposting screenie after a removal
01:17 pmp-p if interfering with a CoC it should have been closed in the first place not edited, and i don't know any of the protagonist or why
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07:12 celeron55 well that's textbook bullying by kilbith
07:12 celeron55 i sure hope paramat can take it because i guess we can't afford not accepting kilbith's PRs
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09:54 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> TBH we could afford not accepting that specific PR
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10:28 zughy[m] tbh there's no need to be a dick, behaviours like those only separate the community. He thinks he's an idiot or idk? Fine, just don't go with zingers in the very PR. He thinks he's that bad and a lot of people agree with him? Contact Celeron
10:40 pgimeno I'd just shut down that PR if it were in my hands.
10:43 pgimeno Accepting it would send a very poisonous message to the community.
10:52 Gael-de-Sailly exactly it's not something to support
10:53 Gael-de-Sailly and the author is free to re-post it without the aggressive message if he wants his feature to be accepted
10:58 Gael-de-Sailly these disputes are so boring... do they think about the many other people that don't want to see their personal quarrels? IMO this is a very selfish behaviour, and not only towards the person he insulted
10:58 Gael-de-Sailly it's part of what is getting me away from Minetest the recent months
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11:27 Krock Call to deprecated function 'get_velocity', please use 'get_player_velocity'
11:27 Krock it's kinda out of order. patching soon...
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11:45 pgimeno maybe this one would be good? https://www.contributor-covenant.org/
11:53 Krock will push https://krock-works.uk.to/u/patches/0001-Fix-incorrect-deprecation-hints.patch in 10 minutes, rubenwardy
11:54 Krock pgimeno: that looks like a common sense CoC. I don't know how helpful that would be
11:56 pgimeno pinging rubenwardy who seems to be also interested in having a CoC
11:58 pgimeno how useful would it be? well, if there's nothing, there's nothing to stop behaviour like that in #10580
11:58 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10580 -- Add new standalone file-browser in Lua by kilbith
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12:01 pyrollo Hi Krock & pgimeno, I guess you refer to that https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/10580#issuecomment-719982875
12:02 pgimeno more specifically to https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/7883281/97789515-6b6ee580-1bc1-11eb-8b50-34fd1e4026c2.png
12:02 Krock pushing patch
12:10 MTDiscord <s​rinivas> i may be a bit slow, but what is wrong with fsck? isnt it fs check?
12:11 pgimeno "oh fsck you!" is a way to write the F word without actually using it
12:11 MTDiscord <s​rinivas> oh dear
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13:09 celeron55 so people agree with me if i'm closing this PR with the option for kilbith to create it again without the aggressive language
13:10 celeron55 i'm fairly sure kilbith will just start doing some childish tricks until he's banned again and then complain about being banned
13:10 celeron55 but eh
13:10 celeron55 let's see
13:11 pmp-p moderation should be made in private
13:11 pmp-p first talk to the guy and cool things off if possible
13:11 pmp-p remind him not to mess forum/life and code
13:12 pmp-p then take the close decision with yout pairs
13:12 pmp-p your*
13:12 celeron55 kilbith is on his second term after already being banned for a year due to persistent bad behavior and many chances to improve
13:12 celeron55 trying to solve this in private won't work
13:12 pmp-p hmm recidivist
13:15 celeron55 frankly the only thing that will work is a permanent ban
13:16 pmp-p well i don't like recidivist, from xp they can undermine a whole community, slowly but surely
13:18 pmp-p some people thrive on conflicts but sometime it's just one guy to one other that have undisclosed history
13:18 pmp-p which kind do you think ?
13:20 celeron55 i don't know, it seems to me kilbith generally has trouble being with people he thinks are lesser than himself
13:20 celeron55 but i'm not a people person
13:21 pmp-p well if your pairs come to the same conclusion as you about a *generic* bad behaviour, i'd say it needs serious mesure
13:23 celeron55 paramat seems to be very magnetic towards being hated and in this case it gets completely out of hand
13:25 pmp-p there was a story like that in micropython community
13:25 celeron55 how did it end up?
13:26 pmp-p badly ended losing the guy that really made the difference
13:26 pmp-p like 50% of the code and good ideas
13:26 celeron55 in this case both have made contributions for a long time
13:29 pmp-p from a quick look it's seem both are getting money from MT directly or indirectly
13:30 pmp-p so there really need to be a vote
13:31 pmp-p some people may have bid on any of them for the continuation of MT
13:31 sfan5 a vote on whether a contributor should be allowed to insult another one?
13:32 ZoeS17 FWIW, that took me the better part of half an hour to understand what happened and only because I read it as file system check. There should be a way to permanently remove issues should that need to be a thing.
13:32 pmp-p a vote on allowing people financially interested in MT to use forum
13:33 pmp-p because obviously they are biased toward true community spirit
13:33 pmp-p maybe keep and limit them on coding/contributing part
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13:45 pmp-p it also could be that some people that i don't know do not know how to switch seasons beetween "(serious) bugfix time" and "extend project"
13:48 pmp-p that could lead to a very serious gap beetween users and dev/mainteners
13:56 pmp-p having at the same time "hey that boat is sinking" and "give me more speed i want to go there asap" attitudes can really hurt morale of people trying to pump water out
14:01 pmp-p people rarely gets a real reward for a bug fixed, so last question if both people are tough is : who really gets the job done ?
14:10 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> > because I read it as file system check same ^^
14:11 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> anyways, please demand no more insults from kilbith
14:11 * pmp-p do a harmless chkdsk_appguru  :D
14:13 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> Just saw celeron handled it properly.
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14:47 kilbith celeron55: it is ironical you call my language as aggressive when paramat is constantly into personal attacks and heated arguments (and very little into contributing code actually)
14:48 kilbith maybe if you were involved more into the community you'd see that and what people (including core-devs) genuinely think of him, especially on Discord
14:49 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> You're on Discord?
14:50 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> Anyways, we don't want that language here
14:50 celeron55[m] <kilbith "maybe if you were involved more "> If you want to demote paramat, you're doing it completely wrong
14:50 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> And a PR is definitely the wrong place to express such sentiments
14:51 kilbith celeron55[m]: if you weren't your courtier, it'd would take a short time before he gets impeached
14:51 kilbith s/you/he
14:51 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> he ain't president duh
14:52 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> I'm not exactly a paramat fan either, but I would never insult him like this
14:53 kilbith since when fsck is an insult
14:53 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> Especially not in a totally unrelated pull request
14:53 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> fsck alone is not; fsck_paramat is
14:53 pmp-p i did not see fsck.png
14:53 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> I saw it but didn't get it at first 😅
14:56 pmp-p what i saw is merely a low insult, at least you could have added a preview box for images with an angry gnome as paramat.png
14:57 MTDiscord <L​one_Wolf> I'd like to know what the intent behind that file was
14:57 pmp-p if you want to be pointlessly rude, at least make people laugh
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14:57 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> I too like having silly tests
14:57 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> But not offensive ones
14:58 kilbith next time I'll do a tech demo video with fancy effects to "fsck paramat" presented as nodes
15:00 celeron55[m] The problem is, something silly for others can be a long lasting series of byllying to someone else. You don't want to be playing with such things
15:00 celeron55[m] We're trying to be adults here
15:01 ZoeS17 Ad hominems are never right, period.
15:01 kilbith how long hmmmm has been bullying people? remind me
15:01 celeron55[m] * The problem is, something silly for others can be a long lasting series of bullying to someone else. You don't want to be playing with such things
15:01 pmp-p yeah keep it professionnal at least on code/pr side
15:02 celeron55[m] hmmmm was just generally rude and didn't pick targets
15:02 celeron55[m] Completely different
15:02 kilbith well perhaps you have short memory
15:02 kilbith RBA, me, some random contributors...
15:03 celeron55[m] There is also a good chance hmmmm's behavior wouldn't be totally accepted today
15:04 celeron55[m] Not that I really remember
15:04 celeron55[m] But if he was like you imply
15:05 kilbith it's just that we are opening the arms to the CoC cancer spreading
15:05 celeron55[m] You are
15:06 celeron55[m] I'm against it, but you make it extremely hard
15:06 celeron55[m] Stop it
15:06 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> We wouldn't need CoCs in the first place if it wasn't for such incidents
15:06 pgimeno ^
15:07 MTDiscord <a​ppguru> Paramat OFC needs to be equally reprimanded should he ever insult others like this, but TBH I haven't seen such behavior from him yet.
15:08 pgimeno neither have I
15:08 kilbith because it's more subtle than insults usually
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15:09 kilbith or you're all naive and blind
15:09 kilbith except rubenwardy
15:09 Benrob0329[m] Paramat is very conservative with his development approach, this frustrates a lot of people. This does not justify passive aggressive comments or childish behavior. Issues need to be brought up specifically and in a professional way for things to change for the better.
15:12 celeron55[m] paramat usually listens to reason. You just need to bother writing it down
15:13 pgimeno kilbith: so what you're saying is that paramat does not cross the line of resorting to insults, good from him, it means he's being civilized in his behaviour
15:13 kilbith yeah we waste a lot of time to convince one guy that no professional team would want anyway
15:16 kilbith pgimeno: you never dealt with him directly afaik
15:16 kilbith but anyway, it's not too important, as long as we ignore each other I'm fine
15:19 pgimeno of course I've dealt with him, and disagreed with him, and the discussion turned heated, but at the end of the discussion, I was able to separate it from the person
15:20 nerzhul unfortunately it's often the case, if you remember our nice weapon pass in the past :D
15:22 celeron55[m] Using insults actually makes kilbith's problem worse, because then paramat limiting his involvement with issues and PRs would mean the aggressiveness was a way to solve the problem
15:24 celeron55[m] I don't think many would like to allow insults to be succesfully used for anything
15:25 celeron55[m] That's what I mean by this being the completely wrong way of doing anything
15:27 Benrob0329[m] I would like to mention that kilbith's behavior is textbook toxicity. Shutting down people he doesn't like/feels are lesser, using passive aggression to push hate onto someone else, moving the blame to another source, moving the discussion to the behavior of others, being starkly nice in places he needs community support (namely the forums), etc.
15:29 Benrob0329[m] I absolutely love his PRs, but his behavior is unprofessional at best.
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15:30 celeron55[m] It's essy to see in kilbiths behabior that in the past he's gotten way too much done with the same kind of behavior
15:30 celeron55[m] * It's easy to see in kilbiths behabior that in the past he's gotten way too much done with the same kind of behavior
15:30 celeron55[m] * It's easy to see in kilbiths behavior that in the past he's gotten way too much done with the same kind of behavior
15:30 celeron55[m] I'm typoing so much...
15:30 celeron55[m] I'm blaming this touchscreen
15:31 pgimeno I wouldn't be surprised if oldcoder started the same way...
15:33 Benrob0329[m] Lets not demonize him either though, OC has other issues.
15:33 pmp-p drama time is coding time wasted
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16:14 rubenwardy Krock: thanks for the fix, I did test it but didn't pay much attention apparently
16:18 pyrollo I'm diving into SSCSM implementation...
16:18 pyrollo And having a lot of questionings.
16:19 pyrollo First of all.. that name is awful :)
16:20 rubenwardy it is terribl
16:21 pyrollo Something like Server Sent Script sounds better IMO (no "mod" concept, no "Lua", just ... server sent scripts :) )
16:22 pyrollo Another problem is the concurrency with actual CSM. Looks more difficult to keep both SS and CSM than replacing CSM with SSCSM.
16:23 pyrollo According to what I read, removing CSM looks probable if SSCSM is implemented
16:25 Krock rubenwardy: it's fine ^^
16:35 rubenwardy gosh, Irrlicht image scaling is terrible
16:35 rubenwardy https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/2122943/97808673-251c9380-1c60-11eb-8031-8e4ffed68f49.png
16:35 rubenwardy or maybe that's MT
16:35 Krock https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Always-Has-Been.png
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16:55 Krock #10458 - ready for review. fixes some dead keys. pretty easy to test
16:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10458 -- Chat Input: Allow more input keys by SmallJoker
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17:27 MTDiscord <G​enshin> I agree with c55 regarding to closing that PR from JP and giving him a chance to make another one. It's better to make a PR without having to inslult anyone. If he still does the same thing then it will be his fault for not complying to conduct.
17:28 MTDiscord <G​enshin> and by he, i meant JP
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18:24 pgimeno Krock: have you fixed accents?!?
18:24 Krock no, I don't know how to fix those, but regular keys should work now
18:25 pgimeno awwww
18:25 Krock I mean the combine accents don't work yet: ^ and  ~ "
18:25 pgimeno áéíóú <- very used in Spanish
18:26 rubenwardy over half of our team is international, yet our internationalisation support sucks a bit
18:26 Krock question is whether those need combining characters or can be pressed directly using Shift/Alt/Ctrl combinations
18:30 pgimeno no, no other combinations, there's an accent key dedicated to them for that purpose
18:31 Krock then it should work
18:33 pgimeno Krock: are you on Linux? if so, you can use 'setxkbmap es' to test with a Spanish keyboard. The key to the right of the L is Ñ, which works fine, and the one to the right of Ñ is an accent key, which should be combinable with any vowel.
18:34 pgimeno But currently it outputs ’ in minetest.
18:34 Krock yes I am. need to figure out the original xkbmap set first before testing this
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19:01 sfan5 Krock: looks good from a quick read-through but when are we reverting #10419?
19:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10419 -- Replace MyEventReceiver KeyList with std::unordered_set by v-rob
19:01 Krock yes
19:01 Krock soon
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20:18 zughy[m] Krock:  why exactly you reviewed an already merged PR? #10512 Is it a "do another PR to fix these things"?
20:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10512 -- Clean up l_object.cpp by Zughy
20:21 Krock it's to discuss the points prior opening a new PR. I'll do that if nobody else is keen
20:22 Krock because it might be possible that some of the changes there are justified and don't need reverting
20:23 sfan5 zughy[m]: do you remember why you removed the compatibility code in set_physics_override?
20:24 zughy[m] those could be easily fixed using the functions I've added in #10564, but it needs another approval
20:24 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10564 -- Fix ObjectRef crashes due to lua_isnil() by Zughy
20:24 zughy[m] aaah, riot delay
20:24 zughy[m] *matrix
20:27 zughy[m] I didn't see any deprecation warning in the API so I thought it was something obsolete to be removed
20:28 zughy[m] like, the API didn't say anything about a non-table format
20:33 Krock the physics override format was officially supported until e51ad533
20:34 Krock ..and that was in dec 2013
20:34 zughy[m] also, isn't this useless if helper.cpp already has readParam<v2f>? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/script/common/c_converter.cpp#L147
20:35 Krock yes, I think the idea was to replace those functions. ping nerzhul
20:36 zughy[m] back on 10564: those fixes could then be addressed with readParam<v3f>(L, idx, v3f(0,0,0))
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21:15 zughy[m] Krock: if you'd be so kind to review #10564, I can then fix the things you pointed out in my previous PR
21:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/10564 -- Fix ObjectRef crashes due to lua_isnil() by Zughy
21:19 Krock will do, probably tomorrow
21:26 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Krock, question. What's the possibility of having a second wield hand feature for first person?
21:27 Krock 13.37%
21:30 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Ouch X)
21:31 MTDiscord <G​enshin> Hopefully i'll come up with a alternative method with the fps attachment pr. got dualwielding to work
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