| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:03 |
red-001 |
you know there is a PR to re-add the sneak elevator? |
| 00:04 |
OldCoder |
red-001, there are multiple proposals, if you're talking to me. But I'm addressing the larger picture. |
| 00:04 |
OldCoder |
Not just the sneak thing |
| 00:04 |
red-001 |
just letting you know |
| 00:04 |
OldCoder |
Thanks |
| 00:04 |
OldCoder |
Thoughts are appreciated |
| 00:04 |
red-001 |
since thats the url, I haven't finished reading it yet |
| 00:05 |
Billre |
where do you want the thoughts? |
| 00:05 |
red-001 |
OldCoder, whats your option on CSM? |
| 00:06 |
OldCoder |
Billre, IRC PM is fine |
| 00:06 |
Billre |
ok |
| 00:06 |
OldCoder |
red-001, I've been editing that document for about... Hm. 4 hours. |
| 00:06 |
OldCoder |
Need to take a short break. Back in a bit. |
| 00:06 |
red-001 |
sure |
| 00:10 |
paramat |
my comments on the doc: all changes affect the feel of a game, trying to draw a line somewhere for +5 is not practical. however, i admit i probably merged it too quickly and more expressed approval may have been needed. it was +4 -2, but more devs may support the intention but have just not expressed that, so the number approving may be higher than 4 |
| 00:11 |
paramat |
we need more devs to state their opinion on the PR's intention |
| 00:11 |
paramat |
also i suggest not bothering editing such a doc, just everyone discuss in this channel |
| 00:14 |
paramat |
are people's comments edited? do you have their permission to publish PMs? |
| 00:18 |
|
fireglow joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:18 |
|
fireglow[m] joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:22 |
twoelk |
OldCoder, as you used html for the document you could have provided links to the quote sources so that one could study the context things were said in. |
| 00:22 |
rubenwardy |
twoelk: was in PMs |
| 00:23 |
twoelk |
ok, still same |
| 00:24 |
twoelk |
nvm then |
| 00:25 |
|
paramat joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:28 |
paramat |
.. i'm not saying it should be reverted, we are now moving towards the best possible situation: undesirable bugs fixed and the popular side-effects kept as optional and intentional features |
| 00:30 |
red-001 |
^ |
| 00:30 |
twoelk |
I'm not really convinced it was a bug, it had an inner logic, an ingame logic not a model of reality. :-D |
| 00:31 |
twoelk |
and it was somewhat unique |
| 00:32 |
* twoelk |
goes of to climb some sneak ladders on some obscure servers |
| 00:54 |
OldCoder |
twoelk, the quote sources were IRC PM with permission; there are no links |
| 00:55 |
twoelk |
was told, so nvm the comment |
| 00:55 |
OldCoder |
paramat, red-001 As I said in the HTML, not wading into this based solely on the PR. sofar and I are close to agreement... the real issue is how to have more of a sense of a team |
| 00:56 |
OldCoder |
One reasonable suggestion is that certain types of changes should need higher +approval in the face of opposition |
| 00:56 |
OldCoder |
and definitely more discussion |
| 00:56 |
twoelk |
maybe a devplayonserverday? |
| 00:56 |
OldCoder |
Yes |
| 00:56 |
twoelk |
like once a month or so |
| 00:56 |
OldCoder |
and at the same time perhaps lesser changes should be easier to get into core |
| 00:56 |
OldCoder |
Ones that are acknowledged not to be dangerous |
| 00:57 |
twoelk |
milage may vary |
| 00:57 |
OldCoder |
red-001, did you ask about CSM? if so, identify acronym |
| 00:58 |
OldCoder |
all, I haven't talked about a spoon or other utensil because of sneak. I just think the above: some changes should be handled more carefully and others should be easier |
| 00:59 |
rubenwardy |
OldCoder: client side modding |
| 00:59 |
OldCoder |
Consensus may not be the absolute rule, but look at what people care about, go easy on stepping on a game that they may love, and allow little tweaks into the core if they don't damage things |
| 00:59 |
OldCoder |
rubenwardy, go on |
| 00:59 |
OldCoder |
I'm talking specifically about core dev |
| 00:59 |
rubenwardy |
!g minetest client side modding good or bad site:forum.minetest.net |
| 00:59 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: [Mod] MAPP - map for Minetest - optimized! [0.2.4] - Minetest Forums - It is a shame when good mods are discontinued and forgotten (like this mod and the mods Mauvebic made.) It would really be great if this could be done client-side. The client has most of the data already. (A. Savage, Mythbusters) I'm not modding and/or playing minetest anymore. (9 more messages) |
| 00:59 |
OldCoder |
rubenwardy, go on? |
| 01:00 |
twoelk |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5394 |
| 01:00 |
OldCoder |
R |
| 01:00 |
rubenwardy |
!title https://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=17074 |
| 01:00 |
ShadowBot |
rubenwardy: Client-sided modding: Good or bad? - Minetest Forums |
| 01:00 |
OldCoder |
Ahhh |
| 01:01 |
twoelk |
texturepacks are allready csm ;-P |
| 01:01 |
* OldCoder |
was thinking context-sensitive migration or something |
| 01:02 |
OldCoder |
Well, it would permit the distribution of tailored clients, right? |
| 01:02 |
OldCoder |
As well as worlds? |
| 01:02 |
OldCoder |
Would complicate things, in some cases, if different players had different modsets |
| 01:02 |
OldCoder |
But what argument could there be to rule out such a feature? |
| 01:02 |
OldCoder |
It adds to the power of the platform |
| 01:03 |
twoelk |
security problems? |
| 01:03 |
OldCoder |
Right |
| 01:03 |
OldCoder |
But almost anything can be misused |
| 01:03 |
betterthanyou711 |
hi |
| 01:03 |
OldCoder |
betterthanyou711, you are +1 older O_O |
| 01:03 |
OldCoder |
People can recompile clients and do what they wish already |
| 01:03 |
twoelk |
also not all clients are the same, some are potatoes as said somewhere else |
| 01:03 |
betterthanyou711 |
+1 older requires a certain age to be told |
| 01:04 |
OldCoder |
I don't buy security as a reason to skip the feature. Maintainability perhaps. |
| 01:04 |
betterthanyou711 |
or ye old to fold like the mold on bread? |
| 01:04 |
OldCoder |
If the API stabilizes |
| 01:04 |
OldCoder |
betterthanyou711, PM |
| 01:07 |
OldCoder |
red-001, I don't know enough yet to comment authoritatively. If it is difficult to stabilize and maintain, I might have reservations. In general it sounds like another useful tool to have in the box. |
| 01:08 |
paramat |
more approval required for larger or more controversial changes is already how we work, i felt +4 was enough, but yes merged to soon |
| 01:08 |
OldCoder |
Progress, then. See the flip side. Don't be so strict about lesser things but *yes* I understand caution on the flip side. Things that are option-able should be less controversial. Options are good. |
| 01:09 |
OldCoder |
If this change was safely option-able there would be no issue. Regrettably this apparently was not the case for the 1st version. |
| 01:10 |
OldCoder |
But my own remarks, again, are not specifically about the PRs. I wouldn't spend whatever capital I have on that. This is about the larger picture. |
| 01:10 |
OldCoder |
The core devs are skilled, investing time, do not take orders, all of this is understood... at the same time the project as a whole needs to be seen as more of a team |
| 01:11 |
paramat |
yeah, more testing was needed and more effort made on keeping an option, i did actually ask for more effort to address the complaints |
| 01:11 |
OldCoder |
|
| 01:12 |
OldCoder |
C55 did hope that the core devs would, at a higher level, spend more time in the other channel. This seems like a sensible point. |
| 01:12 |
OldCoder |
Communication, when positive, is rarely a bad thing |
| 01:12 |
paramat |
and please consider not posting blank lines, it's irritating |
| 01:12 |
OldCoder |
paramat, it's part of me. Not conscious. |
| 01:12 |
OldCoder |
And less irritating than other things that are accepted |
| 01:12 |
OldCoder |
Plus, it's logical |
| 01:13 |
* OldCoder |
has never understood why *three* reasons for separators are not sufficient |
| 01:13 |
twoelk |
mileage may vary ;-P |
| 01:14 |
paramat |
some lines of yours in that document are unreasonable and untrue in the way they portray devs |
| 01:15 |
twoelk |
well it is personal opinion |
| 01:15 |
OldCoder |
paramat, they are perceptions that many hold |
| 01:15 |
OldCoder |
as were those in the charter for #minetest-project |
| 01:15 |
OldCoder |
The fact that the perceptions are broadly held ought to be understood |
| 01:15 |
OldCoder |
C55 himself holds them :-) |
| 01:15 |
OldCoder |
Or some of them |
| 01:16 |
OldCoder |
<celeron55> but keep in mind that it really seems core devs are kind of alienated from the way of thinking that you and I do |
| 01:16 |
OldCoder |
paramat, ^ :D |
| 01:16 |
OldCoder |
paramat, response to that is welcome! |
| 01:16 |
paramat |
i'm seeing quite a few overly-negative perceptions over this |
| 01:16 |
OldCoder |
<paramat> Surely the speaker is mistaken. Oh, wait, he's the one who created the project. |
| 01:17 |
|
octacian joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:17 |
twoelk |
OldCoder that feeling of them and us is not unique to mt-deevs and players, it seems to come naturally |
| 01:18 |
twoelk |
-e |
| 01:18 |
twoelk |
what is needed is suggestions and mechanics how to keep the alienation as little as possible |
| 01:19 |
paramat |
as i wrote before i feel things are not quite as bad as c55 is suggesting |
| 01:19 |
Zeno` |
why are the perceptions overly negative? |
| 01:20 |
twoelk |
because no gains of the fix are explained well? |
| 01:20 |
Zeno` |
Also, 4 devs approved that PR? Which 4 devs are those? |
| 01:21 |
paramat |
just a few comments by some that suggest devs 'do not listen at all' or similar |
| 01:21 |
OldCoder |
paramat, fair enough |
| 01:21 |
OldCoder |
and twoelk ditto |
| 01:22 |
OldCoder |
Core devs might spend more time in -project and understand that -project should rank slightly higher than random GitHub posters |
| 01:22 |
OldCoder |
-project was created for this purpose. It is not a modding channel per se. |
| 01:22 |
paramat |
3 official approvals and 1 approval of concept, so i guess +4 for concept, +3 for code and concept |
| 01:22 |
twoelk |
erm, -project is what it became |
| 01:23 |
twoelk |
a nice place |
| 01:23 |
OldCoder |
It is a place the platform as a whole to be discussed, for common ground to be reached |
| 01:23 |
OldCoder |
twoelk, it was designed intentionally to be a nice place. And a steering committee. |
| 01:23 |
OldCoder |
This was its charter. |
| 01:23 |
OldCoder |
Additionally, suggestion is for a tiered approval system. Dangerous or controversial changes, up the bar. |
| 01:24 |
OldCoder |
And less dangerous or controversial changes, especiall those that are option-able, lower it. |
| 01:24 |
OldCoder |
Three suggestions, therefore, looked at this way. Are they unreasonable? |
| 01:24 |
twoelk |
so techical stuff in -dev and steering-chatter in-project? |
| 01:24 |
OldCoder |
twoelk, technical is fine in -project but it is less formal than -dev which is intended to be solely technical |
| 01:25 |
OldCoder |
We do respect the desire to focus in this channel |
| 01:25 |
OldCoder |
but perhaps the platform as a whole and directions could be discussed more with the group as a whole - which is, remember, vetted |
| 01:25 |
OldCoder |
-project is moderated. -dev IIRC is not. |
| 01:26 |
OldCoder |
So, I have those three suggestions, I think. sofar started out as pretty blunt and firm but I think he's leaning towards agreement. |
| 01:27 |
OldCoder |
Note the 3rd change. It shouldn't be too difficult for amateurs to get their changes into core. Especially if they're minor and option-able. |
| 01:27 |
OldCoder |
There are risks involved but not so high and this is a way for the codebase and the team to grow |
| 01:27 |
OldCoder |
|
| 01:29 |
paramat |
we already scale required approvals for PRs |
| 01:29 |
twoelk |
actually I don't find the way minetest is developing that bad. Only thing I would suggest is to call the next release 0.5.0 for all the map/mod/gameplay changing stuff |
| 01:30 |
OldCoder |
0.5.0 seems a separate discussion |
| 01:30 |
twoelk |
or rather breaking than changing |
| 01:30 |
Shara |
In fairness, I don't think getting minor changes in via PR is too difficult. It's the big controversial issues specifically that leave me with a headache, when it seems like there are extreme views and no middle grounds on offer. |
| 01:31 |
VanessaE |
I agree with twoelk |
| 01:31 |
paramat |
#5440 is ready and tested woo |
| 01:31 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5440 -- Map generation limit: Make per-world by paramat |
| 01:31 |
VanessaE |
you can't legitimately call it 0.4.x anymore I think |
| 01:31 |
OldCoder |
paramat, it wasn't really understood that this change would be as controversial as it was... that is clear. If it was seen as one minor voice objecting... maybe that voice should have been listened to and the matter reviewed further. |
| 01:31 |
OldCoder |
0.5.0 is here?! |
| 01:31 |
twoelk |
it would make clearer that rather sigificant changes are to be expected |
| 01:31 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: only if the others here think it is. |
| 01:31 |
OldCoder |
Not backwards incompatible, I gather? |
| 01:32 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, and not here but -project |
| 01:32 |
OldCoder |
That is one of its points |
| 01:32 |
VanessaE |
I won't speak to that. |
| 01:32 |
OldCoder |
Here, discussion may tend to be circular at times, small group, no experience with worlds |
| 01:32 |
OldCoder |
You - You personally know exactly what I'm referring to |
| 01:32 |
VanessaE |
minetest has changed enough in various ways that it does make sense to call it 0.5.0 now. |
| 01:32 |
twoelk |
old clients won't see all colors for example |
| 01:32 |
OldCoder |
Well, that change at least seems not too controversial |
| 01:33 |
VanessaE |
but that's immaterial to the sneak issues. |
| 01:33 |
twoelk |
security breaks many old mods |
| 01:33 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, I'm not very good at mixing threads if things aren't clear - 0.5.0 is not germane to sneak? Yes, you are correct. |
| 01:33 |
OldCoder |
Or colors are not relevant? |
| 01:33 |
rubenwardy |
Server modding was added in 0.4. Client should be 0.5, imo |
| 01:33 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: nevermind. |
| 01:34 |
VanessaE |
rubenwardy: +1 |
| 01:34 |
paramat |
we knew it would be controversial, objections were listened to, but yes more work was needed (which is being done now) |
| 01:34 |
OldCoder |
paramat, thank you for your remarks |
| 01:34 |
OldCoder |
My own suggestions are general and you and sofar both seem to feel they are reasonable - or 2 of them; you have not commented, I think, on #-project |
| 01:34 |
paramat |
i agree with 0.5 btw |
| 01:35 |
OldCoder |
Perhaps consider spending more time there |
| 01:35 |
paramat |
heh i spend a lot of time there |
| 01:35 |
OldCoder |
Very well |
| 01:35 |
OldCoder |
Good for you to receive positive feedback as well as negative, you know |
| 01:35 |
OldCoder |
You know how much people enjoy your work |
| 01:36 |
paramat |
0.4 was a new default mapgen, we've just changed that |
| 01:36 |
OldCoder |
Another mapgen, then? |
| 01:36 |
OldCoder |
Oh well |
| 01:36 |
* OldCoder |
prepares for territory breaks |
| 01:36 |
OldCoder |
And old one is not option-able, I assume? |
| 01:36 |
paramat |
i mean mgv7 is another reason for 0.5 |
| 01:37 |
OldCoder |
Hm? v7 is like 2 years old, isn't it? |
| 01:37 |
paramat |
more, but only now default and reasonably complete |
| 01:37 |
twoelk |
OldCoder just the default is changed - if v6 is declared it wont change in running maps if I understand correctly |
| 01:37 |
OldCoder |
v7 is default and has evolved... Plus it has been 0.4 for about 4 to 5 years, right? |
| 01:38 |
OldCoder |
twoelk, right, but v7 will have territory breaks now, right? Which is fine |
| 01:38 |
OldCoder |
Good to know about it |
| 01:38 |
OldCoder |
Hm. Compare to Firefox version numbers. |
| 01:38 |
OldCoder |
<Mozilla> We must seem cool. 1, 2, 3, 20, 25, 40! |
| 01:38 |
OldCoder |
<Minetest> I am more sedate. 0.4.1, 0.4.2, ... |
| 01:39 |
OldCoder |
<Minetest> Hm. After 4 to 5 years, time for 0.5.0 |
| 01:39 |
|
QwertyDragon joined #minetest-dev |
| 01:40 |
twoelk |
interesting thing is 0.5.0 wasn't planned, enough breaking stuff just seems to have piled up imho |
| 01:41 |
OldCoder |
Makes sense. Dot .0 is for breaking things. |
| 01:41 |
OldCoder |
But network protocol and maps will remain backwards compatible? |
| 01:41 |
VanessaE |
don't see why not. |
| 01:42 |
VanessaE |
as compatible as they can be considering mods put new features to use that permanently change a map |
| 01:42 |
OldCoder |
Then 0.5.0 on with the show no tale of woe the new era is here pour a beer |
| 01:42 |
twoelk |
if a map is opened with new server it cannot be read by old server iirc |
| 01:42 |
OldCoder |
twoelk, OK |
| 01:42 |
VanessaE |
there's that, too |
| 01:42 |
OldCoder |
But will it work with old clients? |
| 01:43 |
VanessaE |
as long as the client is new enough to render whatever features are in use. |
| 01:43 |
twoelk |
except that they are colorblind :-D |
| 01:43 |
OldCoder |
So, there is a colors change |
| 01:43 |
VanessaE |
like the param2 color feature, can't do that with any client prior to 20170123 |
| 01:43 |
OldCoder |
And can't move worlds back and forth between old and new servers |
| 01:43 |
OldCoder |
But can connect and play |
| 01:44 |
VanessaE |
yeah. |
| 01:44 |
OldCoder |
Hm. Chance to break the Android clones. But they'll catch up. |
| 01:44 |
VanessaE |
perfect. |
| 01:44 |
VanessaE |
there it is guys |
| 01:44 |
VanessaE |
the perfect reason to call it 0.5.x :D |
| 01:46 |
Zeno` |
backwards compatibility doesn't really come into the equation when talking about semantic or semi-semantic version numbering |
| 01:46 |
OldCoder |
Zeno`, how so? |
| 01:46 |
Zeno` |
just because 0.5 still mostly supports 0.4 doesn't mean that 0.5 should never have had the version bump |
| 01:47 |
Zeno` |
e.g. photoshop 10 can still open photoshop 8 stuff |
| 01:47 |
Zeno` |
doesn't mean that photoshop 10 should not be called photoshop 10. It should be called photoshop 10 |
| 01:47 |
OldCoder |
Zeno`, Hm? Sure. |
| 01:47 |
OldCoder |
No argument |
| 01:48 |
* OldCoder |
is mostly amused that MT has gone +.1 for years while Mozilla and others think it matters to go +1 or even more |
| 01:48 |
twoelk |
the idea is that old servers will not be able to open new maps - they are forced to update |
| 01:48 |
OldCoder |
Or just run their existing maps |
| 01:48 |
OldCoder |
If old clients can connect up to a point to new worlds |
| 01:48 |
OldCoder |
that is backwards compatible |
| 01:49 |
twoelk |
then you end like redcrab |
| 01:49 |
OldCoder |
Let's avoid THAT O_O |
| 01:49 |
OldCoder |
Not quite that bad |
| 01:49 |
OldCoder |
In fact this is the opposite in some respects |
| 01:49 |
OldCoder |
I'm not hearing serious compatibility issues yet |
| 01:49 |
OldCoder |
New servers can run old worlds |
| 01:50 |
OldCoder |
Old clients can be used - up to a point - with new worlds |
| 01:50 |
OldCoder |
This is most of what I'd ask for, right there |
| 01:50 |
OldCoder |
#1 is the only crucial part... |
| 01:50 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1 -- GlowStone code by anonymousAwesome |
| 01:51 |
twoelk |
lol |
| 01:51 |
VanessaE |
heh |
| 01:51 |
OldCoder |
Should 0.5.0 switch to proller's network code and will it fix the basic problem? |
| 01:51 |
OldCoder |
Anonymous Awesome? |
| 01:51 |
OldCoder |
Good nick |
| 01:56 |
twoelk |
btw <If this doesn't happen, ultimately, I'll launch a spoon,> does sound somewhat like a threat, and the rest near there like you assemblying some troops. |
| 01:56 |
twoelk |
might not have been the intention |
| 01:57 |
OldCoder |
twoelk, it's a simple consequence |
| 01:57 |
OldCoder |
And the troops were and are assembled; it isn't my doing |
| 01:57 |
OldCoder |
My goal would have been, or will be, to keep the project together to the extent possible |
| 01:57 |
OldCoder |
Hence the term spoon as opposed to fork |
| 01:58 |
OldCoder |
It's about finding the right balance. This isn't a corporate project - the core devs are volunteers and need to be respected on that basis. |
| 01:58 |
OldCoder |
But may possibly be slightly out of touch, in some cases, with the rest of the team and world owners and players in particular |
| 01:58 |
twoelk |
that's why I feel the tone in that phrase might be a little too threatening |
| 01:59 |
OldCoder |
"threatening" ? This sounds like a discussion for #-project or PM as you prefer... It is what it is. |
| 01:59 |
VanessaE |
there aren't any network changes of that degree, I don't think |
| 01:59 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, would 0.5.0 be the right time to switch to proller's code or was it rejected as unstable or incomplete? |
| 01:59 |
OldCoder |
It's a major decision as it breaks old clients completely... |
| 02:00 |
OldCoder |
But map backwards compatibility (and major mods, I think) |
| 02:00 |
OldCoder |
is/are the only essentials |
| 02:00 |
VanessaE |
I don't know if it was rejected or not, but now's not the time to think about that |
| 02:00 |
OldCoder |
Not right at the transition to a major new branch? |
| 02:00 |
* twoelk |
needs a multiscreen irc client to view more channels simultanely |
| 02:00 |
OldCoder |
Isn't that when it would come in? |
| 02:01 |
VanessaE |
imho save THAT kind of breaking change for 0.6.0 |
| 02:01 |
OldCoder |
Very well |
| 02:01 |
OldCoder |
But it would be nice to fix the network... if his code does indeed do so |
| 02:01 |
OldCoder |
twoelk, HexChat can detach windows |
| 02:01 |
OldCoder |
So they can both be up at once |
| 02:02 |
VanessaE |
I have very little problems with "the network" these days |
| 02:03 |
twoelk |
hehe - just discovered I can put channel windows side by side - now I need a bigger monitor |
| 02:03 |
OldCoder |
Right |
| 02:03 |
VanessaE |
twoelk: do like I did and get three :D |
| 02:04 |
OldCoder |
Or just overlay them so you can see bottom lines |
| 02:04 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, so Android is a separate issue? |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
must be |
| 02:04 |
OldCoder |
But the network code hasn't changed, has it? |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
I personally don't care much about android |
| 02:04 |
OldCoder |
Why would it be better for PCs ? |
| 02:04 |
VanessaE |
all I know is I don't have significant problems with connecting, receiving media, etc. it all just works. |
| 02:05 |
rubenwardy |
I think that proller used enet, which was considered not a good choice by hmmmm |
| 02:05 |
VanessaE |
yeah |
| 02:06 |
OldCoder |
So, it was rejected based on merits and not compatibility? |
| 02:07 |
OldCoder |
But with original protocol aren't downloads slow without curl? |
| 02:07 |
VanessaE |
no one uses a build without cURL now. |
| 02:07 |
OldCoder |
All right |
| 02:07 |
VanessaE |
and anyone who does is just begging for it. |
| 02:07 |
OldCoder |
Curl is for downloads. How is performance (on non-Android) in play ? |
| 02:07 |
twoelk |
JT2 doesnT use remote media iirc |
| 02:08 |
VanessaE |
JT2? |
| 02:09 |
OldCoder |
? |
| 02:09 |
VanessaE |
oh just test |
| 02:09 |
VanessaE |
bleh |
| 02:09 |
twoelk |
:-D |
| 02:09 |
OldCoder |
A non-compatible fork? |
| 02:09 |
VanessaE |
there's no legit excuse not to set up a remote media server |
| 02:09 |
OldCoder |
But answer question |
| 02:09 |
VanessaE |
nah just some server |
| 02:09 |
OldCoder |
Aside from downloads, how is performance? |
| 02:09 |
VanessaE |
performance is adequate |
| 02:12 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, thank you |
| 02:12 |
OldCoder |
proller had claimed massive improvements |
| 02:14 |
rubenwardy |
might be worth penalising servers in the server list w/o remote media |
| 02:15 |
rubenwardy |
meh |
| 02:15 |
rubenwardy |
for tiny servers it doesn't matter |
| 02:15 |
VanessaE |
I could agree with that. |
| 02:15 |
VanessaE |
no server owner who cares uses just media_fubar anymore :P |
| 02:15 |
Shara |
Some servers run just fine without it though, so it would be kind of harsh for them |
| 02:15 |
OldCoder |
It is an action that carries its own penalty, isn't it? |
| 02:15 |
VanessaE |
how so? |
| 02:16 |
OldCoder |
Without curl, world loads slowly |
| 02:16 |
OldCoder |
<players> to heck with this, we will go play on Bacontown |
| 02:16 |
VanessaE |
only the media will load slowly. |
| 02:17 |
OldCoder |
Why penalize the servers? |
| 02:17 |
OldCoder |
Note: Kids running worlds off their laptops can't do so anyway, can they? |
| 02:17 |
OldCoder |
(curl server through router) |
| 02:17 |
VanessaE |
good question. |
| 02:17 |
OldCoder |
(on a residential connection O_O) |
| 02:18 |
OldCoder |
My worlds use GB a day of media bandwidth |
| 02:18 |
VanessaE |
that's all? :) |
| 02:18 |
OldCoder |
Well, I will ask |
| 02:18 |
OldCoder |
Wait |
| 02:19 |
OldCoder |
Have asked, host will notify me at some point |
| 02:19 |
OldCoder |
Anyway it's a lot by old standards |
| 02:19 |
VanessaE |
actually I have no idea how much total transfer all the servers I host use. |
| 02:19 |
OldCoder |
Too much for residential |
| 02:19 |
VanessaE |
nah |
| 02:19 |
OldCoder |
Hm? |
| 02:19 |
VanessaE |
residential connections are usually good to 200+ GB/mo so 1GB/day is bupkis. |
| 02:20 |
OldCoder |
Depends on how many GB. And go over and some try to hit you with $1,000s of dollars penalty |
| 02:20 |
OldCoder |
It's ridiculous |
| 02:20 |
VanessaE |
never heard of that. |
| 02:20 |
Zeno` |
I am running MT on a raspberry pi and 14.4k modem |
| 02:20 |
Zeno` |
nobody ever plays :( |
| 02:20 |
OldCoder |
Comcast has something like that now. And Zeno` that is remarkable! |
| 02:20 |
OldCoder |
Ah |
| 02:20 |
OldCoder |
Anyway, consensus is that the network code, so maligned in the past, is good enough after all? |
| 02:21 |
OldCoder |
Provided only that curl is used for downloads? |
| 02:21 |
VanessaE |
it's good enough that there are, in my uninformed opinion, much more important issues to deal with. |
| 02:21 |
OldCoder |
Fair enough |
| 02:46 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, FWIW my host states that I'm presently using about 250 GB per month |
| 02:46 |
VanessaE |
sounds about right for, what, 20 server instances? |
| 02:47 |
OldCoder |
Or 60+ GB per week. This includes both RX and TX. Hm, yes. Somewhat less. Perhaps 15 worlds. |
| 02:47 |
OldCoder |
I'm running webservers too but they are low traffic except for MT. |
| 02:47 |
VanessaE |
that's about how many I host as well. |
| 02:47 |
OldCoder |
Similar bandwidth? |
| 02:48 |
VanessaE |
not sure. |
| 02:48 |
VanessaE |
probably lower than yours |
| 02:49 |
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| 02:49 |
VanessaE |
https://daconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/stats-monthly.html |
| 02:49 |
VanessaE |
maybe you can glean something useful from that. |
| 02:51 |
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| 02:53 |
OldCoder |
R |
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| 03:10 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, TY |
| 03:16 |
sofar |
VanessaE: I see a leak |
| 03:17 |
VanessaE |
sofar: yeah I know |
| 03:17 |
VanessaE |
it's unclear what it is. |
| 03:17 |
* VanessaE |
pokes Zeno` |
| 03:17 |
Zeno` |
hmm? |
| 03:17 |
VanessaE |
possibly liquid queue overloading? |
| 03:18 |
Zeno` |
massif still shows liquid queue every growing yeah |
| 03:20 |
Zeno` |
I could run massif again tonight to see if there is something new though |
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| 04:31 |
Zeno` |
Did #5406 actually get profiled? |
| 04:31 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5406 -- Reduce memory & function cost of Game class functions by nerzhul |
| 04:31 |
Zeno` |
because I don't believe that's true. Last time I profiled using pointers was quicker (due to I assume better pipelining or fewer cache misses) |
| 04:32 |
Zeno` |
well, maybe it is now true since so much has changed. I just hate claims of "this is faster" without profiles to back the claims up I guess |
| 04:48 |
sofar |
Zeno`: since it's all within the same class/file, and most of that function is really simple code, I think it's correct |
| 04:49 |
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| 04:54 |
Zeno` |
I think it's correct, yeah :) Just maybe not faster. Not sure but I could profile I guess. Hardly seems worth it though :) |
| 04:58 |
Zeno` |
looking at my old notes the cache misses may have been due to something else anyway |
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| 07:36 |
nerzhul |
merging #5444 |
| 07:36 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5444 -- Add multiline support to colorize. by red-001 |
| 07:45 |
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| 07:46 |
red-001 |
there is an issue with 5444 |
| 07:47 |
red-001 |
I forgot to change the variable name from "colour_code" to "color_code" in part of the code |
| 07:48 |
red-001 |
I pushed a fix but it got merged already |
| 07:48 |
red-001 |
nerzhul ^ |
| 07:59 |
nerzhul |
fixed |
| 08:04 |
red-001 |
thanks |
| 08:25 |
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glut32 |
Is it the good github for Irrlicht 1.9? https://github.com/zaki/irrlicht |
| 10:18 |
nrzkt |
it's just a mirror, irrlicht uses svn only |
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| 15:41 |
nerzhul |
is #5436 okay for merge ? |
| 15:41 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5436 -- [CSM] Change command prefix to "." and add "help" command. by red-001 |
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| 16:23 |
paramat |
celeron55 sfan5 Shara and all, i had a 'middle of the night half awake' realisation. please can we add an 'old sneak' setting, and have that decide the running of old or new code? there's no need for players to suffer like this. i don't understand why i didn't suggest this earlier =3 |
| 16:23 |
sfan5 |
from a code standpoint this is a stupid idea |
| 16:24 |
sfan5 |
also my PR + the "sneak_gltich" override has almost the same effect |
| 16:24 |
celeron55 |
well it has been suggested already |
| 16:26 |
celeron55 |
theoretically there should be a clean interface that allows swapping the new and old code without much maintenance headache, but in practice that might not be the case |
| 16:27 |
celeron55 |
it probably is the case here more or less |
| 16:27 |
celeron55 |
even in the long run |
| 16:31 |
twoelk |
like the enable_build_where_you_stand switch? |
| 16:32 |
sfan5 |
it should be a server-side settings in this case |
| 16:32 |
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| 16:42 |
paramat |
#5443 is not an acceptable replication, i tested it, it also doesn't replicate 2-node sneak-jump. it may be very difficult to replicate the old behaviour within the new code |
| 16:42 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5443 -- Bring back sneak elevators/ladders by sfan5 |
| 16:42 |
sfan5 |
it does no replicate that because i did not code it to do that |
| 16:43 |
paramat |
and yes, have the setting simply switch big blocks of movement code, not pretty but it works |
| 16:43 |
sfan5 |
thats more than just "not pretty" that's horrible |
| 16:44 |
sfan5 |
and that will not fix damage evasion for 99.99% percent of people |
| 16:44 |
sfan5 |
because those will want sneak elevators too |
| 16:45 |
paramat |
i tested new sneak and it has many issues, it is not acceptable yet and may take time to get right |
| 16:46 |
sfan5 |
did sneaking on snow work before? |
| 16:49 |
paramat |
i know using the old code will not fix the undesirable bugs of the old code, those who want the old behaviour will just have to live with them, and will probably be happy to. doing this will keep people happy while we slowly improve new sneak code and try to provide good replications in the new code, if possible |
| 16:50 |
paramat |
i don't know i never used sneak |
| 16:50 |
sfan5 |
so what are these "many issues"? is it #5438 ? |
| 16:50 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5438 -- Sneaking on 1/16th block doesn't, well, work. |
| 16:55 |
paramat |
yes |
| 17:00 |
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| 17:01 |
paramat |
i'm happy to write the PR for my suggestion |
| 17:01 |
sfan5 |
paramat: please re-check my pr i fixed the complaints |
| 17:03 |
paramat |
ok |
| 17:04 |
paramat |
my suggestion would probably be a temporary thing to give us time to work on new code without players suffering |
| 17:18 |
paramat |
#5440 is ready |
| 17:18 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5440 -- Map generation limit: Make per-world by paramat |
| 17:24 |
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| 17:40 |
sfan5 |
paramat: snow sneak does not work reliably in 0.4.16 either |
| 17:41 |
sfan5 |
that covers 1 + 2 |
| 17:42 |
sfan5 |
3 is a bug indeed ("invisible wall") |
| 17:42 |
sfan5 |
4 was explained already |
| 17:42 |
sfan5 |
s/4\.16/4.15/ obviously |
| 17:42 |
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| 17:43 |
sfan5 |
you yourself said that this a dev version so breakage is expected, which means we don't need to (and shouldn't) add a temporary "switch code path" kind of thing |
| 17:53 |
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| 18:07 |
OldCoder |
I'm here to pass along a message from a middle-school player who's been here for 1.5 years. |
| 18:07 |
OldCoder |
First, thanks again to those who talked yesterday. Core devs feel that some of the perceptions people have had are unfair. I felt, and it appears that C55 and others agreed, it was a good point to look at communications and processes. |
| 18:07 |
OldCoder |
The message from the player is about the sneak feature: |
| 18:07 |
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| 18:08 |
OldCoder |
"i liked it a lot. so do a lot of other players. i use it for my mines. most players who know about it like it." |
| 18:08 |
OldCoder |
I myself didn't use it. My own requests are: |
| 18:08 |
OldCoder |
(1) proceed slower with changes that have serious objections unless they're option-able |
| 18:08 |
VanessaE |
you're late to the game, OldCoder. |
| 18:08 |
VanessaE |
there's already two code proposals to reinstate it. |
| 18:08 |
OldCoder |
Just finishing a message |
| 18:08 |
OldCoder |
I know that |
| 18:08 |
* OldCoder |
would like to finish |
| 18:08 |
* OldCoder |
did not come here specifically yesterday about the sneak issue |
| 18:08 |
OldCoder |
I myself didn't use it. My own requests are: |
| 18:09 |
OldCoder |
(1) proceed slower with changes that have serious objections unless they're option-able |
| 18:09 |
OldCoder |
(2) proceed *faster* with changes that are simple, unobjectionable, and option-able |
| 18:09 |
OldCoder |
(3) continue to get to know others outside the core devs in #-project |
| 18:09 |
OldCoder |
|
| 18:10 |
OldCoder |
Commitment and skill on the part of core devs is noted and appreciated. My own input comes down to the three sensible suggestions listed right above |
| 18:10 |
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| 18:10 |
OldCoder |
If these suggestions are taken, team will continue to grow and things will go more smoothly |
| 18:10 |
OldCoder |
Thank you again |
| 18:10 |
OldCoder |
VanessaE, late not, I think :P |
| 18:10 |
OldCoder |
|
| 18:11 |
* OldCoder |
feels that few will consider the three suggestions to be unreasonable |
| 18:14 |
celeron55 |
i would guess everyone agreed to those way before you mentioned them, and way before the current issue too |
| 18:15 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, call it a reminder, then. As you yourself felt was appropriate. |
| 18:15 |
celeron55 |
it's just not so easy; having objectionable PRs hanging around is very tiring and trying to understand people is also tiring |
| 18:15 |
OldCoder |
This is true. I can try to help more myself. |
| 18:15 |
OldCoder |
Nothing has been said about taking every PR. The suggestions are sensible and "everyone agreed to those". |
| 18:16 |
OldCoder |
I'd remind you, celeron55, that you yourself used the word "alienated" to describe this group. The word is too strong; there has been considerable improvement. |
| 18:17 |
OldCoder |
2 years ago, intruders were often shot on sight. Today, they're almost offered tea and a comfortable chair. |
| 18:17 |
OldCoder |
So, I'd like to be clear that nothing I said yesterday myself was intended to be negative or even unfriendly in context. |
| 18:17 |
OldCoder |
I don't feel that most of the group is "alienated" at all. |
| 18:17 |
celeron55 |
i still think that's more of a perception thing than what actually has happened or happens |
| 18:18 |
OldCoder |
Again, you used the word "alienated" yourself. Your own perceptions might be too negative. |
| 18:18 |
celeron55 |
i don't know every english word; make up a better one if you know one |
| 18:18 |
OldCoder |
No need. I think yesterday was positive. |
| 18:19 |
OldCoder |
And it seems helpful to restate suggested guidelines |
| 18:19 |
OldCoder |
BTW don't fall back on the "English word" excuse, celeron55. Your English is, and always has been, perfect :-) |
| 18:19 |
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| 18:20 |
OldCoder |
Hm, somebody might wish to ban lisac temporarily with the message "Fix cycling and then PM" |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
eh, whatever, i'm so tired i should probably say nothing |
| 18:21 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, your input and that of others was very helpful. I think, again, this has been a good thing. I relate to tired BTW. |
| 18:21 |
lisac |
OldCoder, Sorry, I'm testing out a new DE. |
| 18:21 |
lisac |
It keeps crashing |
| 18:22 |
OldCoder |
lisac, Ah. Could you close most channels? You're cycling far more in my network. |
| 18:22 |
OldCoder |
Then test away. PM if you need help. |
| 18:23 |
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| 18:23 |
lisac |
OldCoder, Sorry, crash. |
| 18:23 |
lisac |
good idea. |
| 18:24 |
OldCoder |
Heh. celeron55, I'm about a mile myself underwater in IRL and business. No MT time for weeks except for 1 world. But invested a day yesterday and don't regret it. Discussions with everybody were positive. |
| 18:34 |
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| 18:50 |
kilbith |
2nd approval needed on #5395, please |
| 18:50 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5395 -- FormSpec: support custom size and spacing for slots in list by adelcoding1 |
| 18:50 |
kilbith |
important for my company |
| 18:58 |
Krock |
Pushing MSVC compiling fix in a few minutes: http://pastebin.com/raw/2P0e9wQN |
| 19:04 |
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| 19:04 |
Krock |
kilbith, I think that the examples are not neccessary there |
| 19:05 |
Krock |
or what do you think about this? |
| 19:05 |
kilbith |
yeah, that's what I told him |
| 19:05 |
kilbith |
feel free to remove them if you decide to merge |
| 19:12 |
kilbith |
if our contributions are not merged in a timely manner, we'll likely be less inclined to submit PRs in the future |
| 19:13 |
kilbith |
and believe me we have extremely competent people in our side |
| 19:14 |
kilbith |
(that worked on e.g. Nintendo or Ubisoft) |
| 19:20 |
VanessaE |
> extremely confident > Nintendo |
| 19:21 |
VanessaE |
one of these things is not like the other :) |
| 19:21 |
kilbith |
confident ? |
| 19:21 |
VanessaE |
competent I meant :P |
| 19:21 |
kilbith |
bullshit, Vanessa |
| 19:21 |
VanessaE |
(not sure how that translated into "confident") |
| 19:22 |
VanessaE |
dude, it was a joke (I was alluding to some saying the Wii U was a market failure, and my personal opinion regarding the Switch) |
| 19:25 |
kilbith |
I could understand your grief on Ubisoft though |
| 19:25 |
kilbith |
but, offtopic :) |
| 19:25 |
VanessaE |
actually, I know zip about Ubisoft (except that they exist) |
| 19:29 |
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| 19:45 |
numzero |
kilbith |
| 19:45 |
numzero |
how had you made the screenshot you just posted? |
| 19:45 |
numzero |
(in #5446) |
| 19:45 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5446 -- Add shader-based post-processing |
| 19:45 |
kilbith |
by pressing F12 |
| 19:46 |
sfan5 |
:D |
| 19:46 |
kilbith |
ask VanessaE or Zeno` |
| 19:46 |
numzero |
well, I mean the post-processing |
| 19:46 |
kilbith |
they tried it |
| 19:46 |
kilbith |
well I just used RBA' post-processing fork and made a new shader |
| 19:47 |
numzero |
okay, thanks |
| 19:55 |
Fixer |
rbas shaders were insanely slow for me :( |
| 19:57 |
numzero |
they are complicated |
| 19:58 |
numzero |
and 3-layer render targets seems to be used unconditionally in his PR |
| 19:58 |
numzero |
that’s not necessary for basic effects |
| 19:59 |
kilbith |
shaders is a touchy area, the slightest inefficient code in GLSL afflict your computer |
| 20:00 |
numzero |
how do you think would tone mapping be faster in post-processing than in node shaders? |
| 20:00 |
kilbith |
it's obviously more expensive by post-processing |
| 20:00 |
kilbith |
you need to send the current frame to the GPU all the time |
| 20:01 |
numzero |
er, why do you ever need to take it from the GFX? |
| 20:01 |
kilbith |
it captures the frame, transforms it to a texture and ship it to the GPU |
| 20:02 |
numzero |
I thought the render target texture remains in the video memory |
| 20:02 |
numzero |
oh well, if you mean RBA code... |
| 20:02 |
kilbith |
it does yes, but your frames are changing all the time |
| 20:02 |
numzero |
I remember, he used some software processing there |
| 20:02 |
kilbith |
so what you're seeing is a succession of textures on the screen |
| 20:04 |
* numzero |
looks through the code |
| 20:11 |
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| 20:26 |
numzero |
tested #5057 with various settings (including undersampling=1, not settable through the GUI, but supported internally) |
| 20:26 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5057 -- Undersampling by numberZero |
| 20:26 |
numzero |
render-to-texture doesn’t seem to affect the performance by itself |
| 20:27 |
numzero |
(I mean, “render to texture, then display that textureâ€) |
| 21:34 |
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| 21:39 |
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| 21:53 |
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| 22:06 |
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| 22:07 |
juhdanad |
The monthly "devs on a server" idea should be done in reality. |
| 22:08 |
juhdanad |
If regular players could meet with the developers in-game, they would be more motivated to participate in the development. |
| 22:10 |
paramat |
i'd like a dev server, white-listed because i want to play on a server but don't like public ones with too many kids |
| 22:12 |
juhdanad |
I'm not talking about a dev server: young kids who like programming and want to practice will be the future's contributors. |
| 22:12 |
juhdanad |
They just need encouraging and help. |
| 22:13 |
sfan5 |
and the devs will provide their already scarce free time for this? nah probably not |
| 22:13 |
juhdanad |
Well... The idea sounded great anyways. |
| 22:14 |
paramat |
yeah i know, my comment was a bit off topic :] |
| 22:16 |
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| 22:26 |
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| 22:29 |
Fixer |
last time i seen a dev in game was celeron%% in 2011-2012, RBA in 2016 (by my request), and turns out est31 played on ESM server |
| 22:31 |
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| 22:37 |
Shara |
Zeno is often on servers (as a result of me commenting to him that I felt devs don't play enough to see the real issues server owners face) |
| 22:38 |
Shara |
That was what helped lead to spawn bug finally getting fixed... (thanks again to sfan5 for that by the way) |
| 22:38 |
paramat |
funny thing is on servers i'm like in IRL, shy, sensitive loner, so public servers scare me =3 |
| 22:41 |
Shara |
Just disable chat :) |
| 22:42 |
Shara |
I added a /hidename command to one of my servers for people who prefer to play alone without being disturbed |
| 22:43 |
juhdanad |
But then what is the point of the server if you play alone? |
| 22:44 |
paramat |
hehe |
| 22:44 |
Shara |
You can still see issues a lot of the time, but then I don't choose to play that way |
| 22:45 |
Shara |
I think it's just that some issues a busy server might encounter won't be seen in singleplayer tests. |
| 22:45 |
Shara |
Old spawn bug being one example. |
| 22:46 |
paramat |
indeed i would like to interact, but only with well behaved white-listed players |
| 22:47 |
paramat |
i occasionally joined servers in the past and would essentially run for the hills then never rejoin |
| 22:47 |
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| 22:52 |
Fixer |
juhdanad: for survival, you don't want to disclose your position, also - kids |
| 22:53 |
Fixer |
yes, I'm grampy |
| 22:53 |
Shara |
Fixer, it's why DL has /hidename for any trusted players. |
| 22:54 |
Shara |
There are usually solutions, but it's also true that most devs are probably too busy to play the game themselves. |
| 22:57 |
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| 23:00 |
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| 23:16 |
juhdanad |
Any news on #5433? |
| 23:16 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5433 -- Add clang format & skip build if no source file modified by nerzhul |
| 23:17 |
VanessaE |
juhdanad: hoping for the overlay patch soon, too :) (yeah I know it depends on another one) |
| 23:18 |
juhdanad |
VanessaE: I have finished rebasing just at this moment. You are precise... |
| 23:18 |
VanessaE |
:) |
| 23:19 |
juhdanad |
But there are still style issues, so it won't be ready today. |
| 23:30 |
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