| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:20 |
Fixer |
paramat: wuzzy used desert sand to turn regular grass into dry shrub, why can't we still keep this (conversion on desert sand)? |
| 00:20 |
VanessaE |
junglegrass mod used to do that. |
| 00:22 |
Fixer |
paramat: you don't place any green grass on desert sand anyway, so grass to shrub can be enabled for just this case |
| 00:23 |
Fixer |
it seems |
| 00:34 |
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| 00:51 |
VanessaE |
2017-03-23 01:50:45: WARNING[Server]: ServerEnv: Trying to store id = 1046 statically but block (-7,0,44) already contains 14096 objects. Forcing delete. |
| 00:51 |
VanessaE |
oh really. :P |
| 00:54 |
paramat |
Fixer ok good point, we should consider this |
| 00:55 |
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| 14:13 |
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| 14:36 |
celeron55 |
so can i revert the sneak fix to see what people think then? |
| 14:37 |
celeron55 |
or, well, i can, but does someone have something to say that would make me not do it? |
| 14:37 |
celeron55 |
this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/14aa990cdd682b00904c4a84968a6c0e3c31716d |
| 14:38 |
celeron55 |
it seems to be causing quite a lot of problems to be considered a fix |
| 14:40 |
nrzkt |
celeron55: what are the problems ? |
| 14:41 |
celeron55 |
players and server owners seem to act really passive-aggressively and not say anything out loud but there is this issue https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5438 |
| 14:41 |
celeron55 |
and i even heard people are considering forking MT based on this PR, which sounds ridiculous but is telling of something i guess |
| 14:42 |
celeron55 |
it's a too considerable gameplay change for many it seems |
| 14:42 |
kilbith |
forking MT for sneaking-ascent, how smart... |
| 14:43 |
nrzkt |
it's like blockmen fork :s |
| 14:43 |
celeron55 |
well it's a bit similar to me not wanting to use firefox after they get rid of XUL |
| 14:43 |
lisac |
Can't someone make it optional? |
| 14:43 |
celeron55 |
i don't blame them, everything can be a feature |
| 14:43 |
lisac |
so the server admin can enable/disable it? |
| 14:43 |
celeron55 |
that would work |
| 14:44 |
celeron55 |
but it has to happen; not just talk |
| 14:44 |
Shara |
Server owner controlling it would be ideal, but the change itself is to the client. |
| 14:44 |
celeron55 |
i'll revert the commit in 1 hour unless someone actually promises to do something |
| 14:47 |
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| 14:47 |
nrzkt |
celeron55: okay |
| 14:48 |
celeron55 |
and it can be added back once it is optional or somehow otherwise acceptable to those that like the old behavior |
| 15:12 |
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| 15:14 |
Fixer |
celeron55: if you want to revert really hard, please fix damage evasion and nocliping while sneaking :trollface: |
| 15:15 |
celeron55 |
i'm sure they'll get fixed eventually without the other problems being added |
| 15:16 |
Fixer |
and i'm not |
| 15:16 |
Fixer |
sfans fixed them but that killed off that sneak glitch, are there other ways? |
| 15:16 |
nrzkt |
Fixer: see #4981 |
| 15:16 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4981 -- [WIP] Damage cheat fix: server side by nerzhul |
| 15:17 |
nrzkt |
if you can help to fix the last point, we won. No more client side declared damaged |
| 15:22 |
Fixer |
nrzkt: how? |
| 15:24 |
nrzkt |
just look at the issue, there is one mising thing to do |
| 15:24 |
nrzkt |
you can help to do it, i missng dev time on minetest this week and next week, i can only do short PR |
| 15:27 |
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| 15:32 |
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| 15:51 |
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| 15:52 |
paramat |
celeron55 please don't revert, the situation isn't as bad as you think |
| 15:53 |
paramat |
give me 30 mins and i'll post links to show stuff is being sorted out, replacement mods are being made |
| 15:54 |
sfan5 |
paramat it's not about replacement mods |
| 15:54 |
sfan5 |
let him revert it |
| 15:55 |
paramat |
it is about replacement mods, and the new bugs are minor and are probably fixable, unlike the old bugs |
| 15:55 |
sofar |
the actual fuck |
| 15:56 |
sofar |
putting the sneak ladder back in? |
| 15:56 |
sofar |
why? |
| 15:56 |
paramat |
the fixing of sneak bugs has a lot of support from devs and contributors, see the emoticons in first post of the PR thread |
| 15:58 |
paramat |
#5327 please read the whole thread |
| 15:58 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5327 -- Fix various problems with sneaking by sfan5 |
| 16:00 |
paramat |
see this comment from a previously angry player https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5327#issuecomment-287840410 |
| 16:00 |
sfan5 |
ugh the whole local player::move code just seems to assume all nodes are full cubes |
| 16:00 |
paramat |
the whole idea is that this is being moved from a bunch of serious engine bugs to being an intentional coded feature provided by mods |
| 16:01 |
paramat |
i spent 2-3 days working with someone on a mod that can be used as a sneak ladder replacement https://github.com/Ezhh/handholds |
| 16:02 |
paramat |
and intend to write a replacement for 2-node sneak-jump |
| 16:02 |
sofar |
did I miss a constructive conversation between sfan5 and celeron55 where they both agree to revert or something? |
| 16:02 |
sfan5 |
no you didn't and it isn't required |
| 16:02 |
paramat |
no-one agreed to revert |
| 16:03 |
sofar |
according to celeron55 he's going to revert unless someone fixes something |
| 16:03 |
sofar |
and I don't understand what "fixes something" even means |
| 16:03 |
sofar |
or what demands there even are |
| 16:03 |
paramat |
i have made several PRs to make climbing faster and ladder/rail recipies much more generous to compensate |
| 16:03 |
sfan5 |
fixes the problems people have with the pr |
| 16:03 |
sfan5 |
namely: broken sneak ladder |
| 16:04 |
sofar |
wow, just wow |
| 16:04 |
paramat |
the new bugs need some time for us to work on and fix, and they are far less serious than the old bugs |
| 16:04 |
sofar |
this is really about adding a bug back into the game? |
| 16:05 |
sofar |
for what? just so that PC users have an advantage over mobile players? |
| 16:05 |
paramat |
plus this is a dev version, stuff is expected to be suboptimal sometimes, we intend to sort the situation out before 0.4.16 |
| 16:05 |
sfan5 |
you misspelled feature |
| 16:05 |
sfan5 |
;) |
| 16:06 |
sofar |
you are being way too modest |
| 16:08 |
nrzkt |
wow many devs active for sneaking. What is the real end user problem ? Cheating to avoid damages or something else ? |
| 16:10 |
paramat |
fixing the sneak bugs is enabling us to close about 7 issues, they were unfixable and tied-in to how sneak worked. the new method at least has a good chance of being fixable |
| 16:10 |
sofar |
ffs just give all clients fly and noclip while you're at it... |
| 16:10 |
paramat |
we can even add new engine code to allow mods to more closely replicate the old behaviour, if necessary |
| 16:11 |
sofar |
paramat: to be fair, I don't see any of that happening |
| 16:12 |
sofar |
and honestly, the new climbing holds are a much nicer addition to the game then some trivial sneak ladder |
| 16:12 |
sofar |
both aestetically and mechanically |
| 16:12 |
Calinou |
sneak ladders can be relatively annoying to build too, it doesn't bring much value |
| 16:12 |
sofar |
above ground they look terrible |
| 16:12 |
Calinou |
like, if you get *one* node wrong, you may have to rebuild all of it :) |
| 16:12 |
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| 16:13 |
sofar |
and they encourage lazy and ugly builds |
| 16:13 |
sfan5 |
it does not matter how annoying it is when players like it |
| 16:13 |
sofar |
I disagree, we're the ones who can make the decision |
| 16:13 |
sofar |
we can make decisions on anything we want |
| 16:14 |
sofar |
if we think the game will be better (if that's what we want) without or with it, totally valid choice |
| 16:14 |
celeron55 |
the end user problem is the dropping of a mechanic they found really fun to use (and apparently also making sneaking feel worse, maybe) |
| 16:14 |
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| 16:14 |
celeron55 |
it doesn't really matter if you found it fun to use; they did |
| 16:15 |
sofar |
I didn't say it mattered how "I found it fun to use" |
| 16:15 |
sofar |
I never said that |
| 16:15 |
|
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| 16:15 |
sofar |
and I'm not basing my objections on that |
| 16:15 |
|
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| 16:15 |
sofar |
I'm basing my objections on my observations of the population of players using the feature |
| 16:15 |
|
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| 16:15 |
sofar |
not on my own game enjoyment |
| 16:16 |
benrob0329 |
Having a game be fun is more important than having it be correct |
| 16:16 |
Billre |
do I have voice? |
| 16:16 |
sofar |
there is an argument for "taking out tedious tasks" |
| 16:16 |
paramat |
in the end, devs know best, some players are overreacting or don't understand the whole situation, most players don't even know about sneak ladder and sneak-jump |
| 16:16 |
sofar |
but sneak ladders are not tedious tasks IMHO |
| 16:16 |
rubenwardy |
I agree that sneak ladders aren't good game design |
| 16:17 |
sofar |
mining, now that is a tedious task |
| 16:17 |
sofar |
let's remove that |
| 16:17 |
sofar |
? |
| 16:17 |
rubenwardy |
the most upset players are the loudest |
| 16:17 |
sofar |
someone tell me what the reason for adding sneak ladders was in the first place |
| 16:18 |
sofar |
because without that argument on the table we're just going to make the same mistake again |
| 16:18 |
paramat |
and yes the handholds mod is so good it makes sneak ladder seem crude and nasty |
| 16:19 |
sofar |
something tells me the sneak ladder was an accident and nobody even knows anymore why it exists |
| 16:19 |
paramat |
sneak ladder wasn't intentional, it was a side-effect |
| 16:19 |
rubenwardy |
"the reason for adding sneak ladders" => was a ug |
| 16:19 |
rubenwardy |
*bug |
| 16:19 |
sofar |
one that allows players to go through solid nodes, too |
| 16:19 |
paramat |
same with sneak-jump, the player was never meant to jump up 2 nodes |
| 16:20 |
paramat |
and avoid fall damage and several other bugs |
| 16:20 |
sfan5 |
small side node: sneak jump does not cause a jump height of 2, its less actually but enough to "sneak-clip" to a node y=2 above the original pos |
| 16:20 |
celeron55 |
ok i'm going to wait until feature freeze of next stable to finally assess this |
| 16:21 |
sofar |
you mean "we" |
| 16:22 |
celeron55 |
well, my part of "we" |
| 16:22 |
sofar |
I have no issues with re-evaluating decisions |
| 16:22 |
sofar |
but let's do it before time runs out and people want to release |
| 16:22 |
sofar |
and not force a decision by time |
| 16:23 |
celeron55 |
should we set a date? |
| 16:24 |
sofar |
we're talking about it now? |
| 16:24 |
sofar |
are you in hibernation or something? :) |
| 16:24 |
paramat |
setting a date isn't wise, release date has to be flexible |
| 16:25 |
paramat |
but 0.4.16 release is intended for around june |
| 16:26 |
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| 16:26 |
paramat |
sneak ladder and sneak jump are features that obviously need to be subgame things, not unavoidable engine bugs |
| 16:26 |
celeron55 |
well i just don't think in a similar way to sofar i guess |
| 16:27 |
celeron55 |
yes, and without frame-by-frame client-side physics you can't implement them |
| 16:27 |
celeron55 |
unless the engine implements them and you can turn them on |
| 16:27 |
paramat |
anyway, i do think we need to put a lot of effort into providing optional replacements |
| 16:27 |
celeron55 |
or unless something like what i tried in my experiment was added |
| 16:28 |
paramat |
yeah they can't be identically replicated, but that's npt necessary |
| 16:28 |
paramat |
*not |
| 16:29 |
paramat |
handholds mod takes the idea of holes in walls as handholds and improves it |
| 16:29 |
sofar |
I can see this end up ending in a new "fly, fast, noclip" priv |
| 16:29 |
sofar |
and I don't like that |
| 16:29 |
sfan5 |
nah |
| 16:29 |
sofar |
but that's the only thing that makes sense |
| 16:29 |
sfan5 |
it makes way more sense to put this into the "sneak_glitch" phys. modifier |
| 16:29 |
Shara |
paramat: please stop using handholds as a sneakladder replacement idea. It's not |
| 16:29 |
sofar |
many people will want to disable it |
| 16:29 |
paramat |
i know |
| 16:29 |
sofar |
many servers want to disable it, for all clients |
| 16:29 |
paramat |
i mean 'it can be altered to act as a replacement' |
| 16:29 |
sofar |
so it should be a priv |
| 16:29 |
Shara |
I really appreciate you helped me with that mod, but you seem to have backtracked on considering it for MTG like you told me. |
| 16:30 |
Shara |
Which is fine if so, but it was always intended to be a mod standing on its own merrits regardless of sneak ladderws |
| 16:30 |
Shara |
ladders* |
| 16:31 |
Shara |
We would need much better options than this mod to get back the mobility that is now missing. |
| 16:31 |
sofar |
sfan5: is "sneak_glitch" a server packet to client? |
| 16:31 |
sfan5 |
physics overrides are set by the server yet |
| 16:31 |
sfan5 |
s/yet/yes/ |
| 16:31 |
paramat |
i'm undecided on inclusion, all i said was i wouldn't oppose it |
| 16:31 |
sofar |
well that's something at least then |
| 16:31 |
sofar |
you'd avoid the priv |
| 16:31 |
paramat |
per-node climb speed would get a mod closer |
| 16:32 |
Shara |
I'd love this if it was optional per server or priv based. I really would. Because I am not in any way against the server owner getting to decide how they want their server played and having a way to prevent abusive use of it to 'cheat'. |
| 16:34 |
sfan5 |
oh also something i have noticed when working with the code: |
| 16:35 |
sfan5 |
quite often the assumption is made that "air" is the only airlike node that ever exists |
| 16:35 |
sfan5 |
so it checks for nodename == "air" instead of nodedef[nodename].type == "airlike" |
| 16:35 |
sfan5 |
most likely nobody hit this yet so nobody complained |
| 16:41 |
Shara |
Added an airlike node to a mod just this week... |
| 16:45 |
Shara |
paramat: sorry, missed earlier message. Problem is, if no one opposed it for MTG, it would just sit there. Devs would actually need to want it included. So I'm left not knowing what to do when I'm told people wouldn't oppose. |
| 16:48 |
paramat |
yes, the other mtg devs can give better feedback than me at the moment |
| 16:50 |
Shara |
Would appreciate if any would then. I am quite happy to make changes as I said on the forum. |
| 16:52 |
paramat |
ok, because of the problem of easyness, i feel the tool recipe needs to be more expensive (diamonds) |
| 16:52 |
Shara |
Well, I favour more difficulty there myself, and also lowering durability further |
| 16:53 |
Shara |
I would want it as a ladder alternative, not replacement, so that balance is important |
| 16:54 |
rubenwardy |
I like it, not sure about the balance of it vs ladders |
| 16:56 |
Shara |
Thanks rubenwardy. If you have any suggestions for balance adjustments, please let me know. Thinking diamonds for recipe and drop to 250 uses at the moment. |
| 16:56 |
rubenwardy |
yeah |
| 16:57 |
rubenwardy |
I guess if the hand holds only work in natural rock it'll be fine |
| 16:57 |
rubenwardy |
as ladders also work against walls etc |
| 16:57 |
Shara |
It's currently stone, desert stone, sandstone and ice |
| 16:57 |
rubenwardy |
that's good |
| 16:58 |
paramat |
the 4 terrain nodes occuring in mapgen |
| 16:58 |
Shara |
I'd only want to add other nodes if more were added to that mapgen group |
| 16:58 |
Shara |
Anything crafted or soft should require ladders to climb up instead |
| 16:59 |
paramat |
is sneak functionality disabled on climbable nodes? there may be issues with it being activated when 'moving down' on a climbable node, because it's the same key |
| 17:00 |
paramat |
oh i see !climbing in the code now |
| 17:01 |
paramat |
but it only affects a small block of code |
| 17:01 |
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| 17:01 |
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| 17:04 |
paramat |
perhaps that could be combined into the other bools that decide sneaking |
| 17:11 |
twoelk |
what is actually the original reason sneaking exists? is that functionally still fully provided? |
| 17:16 |
paramat |
because MC has it and players find it useful. and yes it is still provided |
| 17:16 |
Shara |
In a rather limited and glitchy form, if the purpose is what I understand it to be. |
| 17:21 |
paramat |
to be fair, the old behaviour was highly glitchy too |
| 17:21 |
Shara |
Not disputing that, but at least I didn't fall off endges when I didn't expect to before |
| 17:22 |
Shara |
edges* |
| 17:22 |
Shara |
Snow and slabs (the smaller ones added by many mods) when placed on edges can now cause you to fall straight off even when holding shift |
| 17:25 |
Fixer |
nrzkt: i can only help with testing and suggestions, Vanessa probably can enable this on her server for full experience for greater good |
| 17:28 |
* VanessaE |
hides |
| 17:31 |
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| 17:37 |
Fixer |
sofar: "what the reason for adding sneak ladders?" it was not intentional I think, and people just used, and exploited the bugs along it, I remember it since 2011 |
| 17:38 |
Fixer |
and ugly bugs they were |
| 17:38 |
Fixer |
also, above ground sneak ladders are ugly, while we have cheap ladders and water elevators |
| 17:42 |
Fixer |
most popular server have /spawn, you can dig down - place water, mine and then /spawn, or /home (and reuse), you can make waterboat elevator as I do, you can use mods like Shara's one |
| 17:43 |
paramat |
i'll merge game#1662 later if no objections, fairly trivial as it roughly returns to original behaviour |
| 17:43 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/1662 -- Flora spread: Re-enable dry shrub replacing flora in desert sand by paramat |
| 17:43 |
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| 17:44 |
Fixer |
i really wanted falling bugs to be fixed, and sfan5 did succeed here more or less, but sneak-ladder breaking was the result, and I;m personally fine with this |
| 17:44 |
Fixer |
i would choose bugless falling over sneak-ladders any day |
| 17:46 |
Fixer |
Calinou, "sneak ladders can be relatively annoying to build too", yep, thats why you can rarely find really deep sneak ladder, and if server has /spawn or /home... you just take water with you and don't bother with anything |
| 17:46 |
Shara |
Fixer: Even those against this (or most of us I guess...) aren't against it because of the falling damage avoidance being removed. |
| 17:46 |
paramat |
Krock sofar rubenwardy nerzhul #5301 seems good now, any approvals? |
| 17:46 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5301 -- fine_pointed added by MarkuBu |
| 17:47 |
paramat |
then we can get new slab placement in mtg |
| 17:47 |
rubenwardy |
#5439 ? |
| 17:47 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5439 -- Add pointed_thing_to_face_pos to misc_helpers and doc by MarkuBu |
| 17:47 |
Fixer |
Shara: if any falling bugs get mirac-sly fixed and sneak ladders still working - i would not bother tbh |
| 17:48 |
Fixer |
and that noclip while sneaking, and falling through slabs/stairs |
| 17:48 |
Shara |
Not sure I understand what you mean. |
| 17:48 |
Fixer |
thats the stuff from mc beta era, that was fixed ages ago |
| 17:48 |
Fixer |
like 6 years ago, and we still have this crap unfixed |
| 17:49 |
Fixer |
Shara: i don't care about sneak ladders, I care about falling bugs/noclip/slabs/damageevasion |
| 17:49 |
Shara |
Either way, there's a lot of people unhappy with this. You might think spoliing many people's enjoyment is worth fixing falld amage, but I'd prefer to see a way to fix that without this. |
| 17:50 |
Shara |
It's seems like there is that PR that, if finished, could do it... so maybe if that can happen then this reverted, almost everyone can be happy. |
| 17:54 |
paramat |
well, sneak ladder and sneak jump are features that need to be decided per-subgame, they have no place being unavoidable in the engine |
| 17:54 |
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| 17:54 |
paramat |
which PR btw? |
| 17:54 |
Shara |
Hold on, let me check the log from earlier |
| 17:55 |
Fixer |
paramat: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4981 |
| 17:55 |
Fixer |
paramat: +1 about per subgame basisc |
| 17:56 |
Shara |
Fixer was quicker :) |
| 17:56 |
Shara |
And would just be nice if server owner could decide. |
| 17:57 |
paramat |
a subgame needs to be able to decide what is climbable, the bug made any alternating pattern climbable. likewise the sneak jump made 2 node high jumps possible but how high you can jump should be decided by physics settings and per-player physics override |
| 17:57 |
Shara |
paramat: this isn't about default player jump height though |
| 17:57 |
paramat |
i'm not against sneak ladder/jump being possible, but they need to be intentional and optional |
| 17:58 |
Shara |
Optional is what I'd like. |
| 17:59 |
paramat |
hm well that PR addresses damage bug only, only one small part of the issue. everybody won't be happy because most devs will not be |
| 18:02 |
paramat |
so, reversion is not good because the old code forced all related bugs, it was not possible to separate desirable parts from the bugs or make them optional, but new code may be able to |
| 18:02 |
Shara |
paramat: problem is, with this now merged, no dev with the ability seems to want to do that :) |
| 18:03 |
paramat |
not sure, sfan5 ? |
| 18:04 |
paramat |
#4959 is simple and needed, can anyone review? |
| 18:04 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4959 -- Fix retrieving blocks in 3rd front camera view. by lhofhansl |
| 18:04 |
paramat |
but anyway, mods can already provide replacements, we mau only need minor new engine code such as per-node climb speed |
| 18:05 |
paramat |
*may |
| 18:05 |
Shara |
per node climb speed would be nice anyway. |
| 18:05 |
paramat |
much more important is fixing the bugs of the new code |
| 18:05 |
Shara |
But I don't see how mods can do most of this, (or I'd be making the mods) |
| 18:06 |
paramat |
you just have :] |
| 18:06 |
Shara |
I don't know how to extend the distance of the edge that you can sneak, or how to enable the double jumping to climb the edge of a node. |
| 18:07 |
Shara |
Or how to switch back from this new way of controlling sneak either... |
| 18:07 |
Shara |
It's a lot of things. |
| 18:07 |
paramat |
i'll attempt the 2nd. the 1st may not be possible but is minor |
| 18:08 |
Shara |
Second is the main one for me. Would appreciate it if you could do a mod for that. |
| 18:08 |
paramat |
exact replication is not possible but is not necessary |
| 18:08 |
Shara |
Happy to help with it if I can as well. |
| 18:09 |
Fixer |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/5270 can this be considered for merging? i think it has two approvals |
| 18:10 |
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| 18:18 |
paramat |
oh yeah |
| 18:18 |
paramat |
devs need to make sure the 'approvals' labels are set correctly |
| 18:19 |
paramat |
as those show up in the thread list |
| 18:19 |
paramat |
that can be merged |
| 18:24 |
Krock |
ack |
| 18:33 |
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| 18:38 |
Krock |
paramat, what do you mean with "How can pitch replace yaw?"? |
| 18:38 |
paramat |
:] what do you mean by the comment? |
| 18:39 |
paramat |
3rd person is a complete reversal of view |
| 18:40 |
paramat |
yaw + 180deg pitch to -pitch |
| 18:40 |
paramat |
seems good |
| 18:41 |
paramat |
sorry i mean 3rd person front view |
| 18:41 |
Krock |
but (180 * 100) % 360 is 0 |
| 18:41 |
Krock |
so, no actual change |
| 18:42 |
paramat |
nope |
| 18:42 |
Krock |
as long pitch is changed, the whole packet is sent anyway |
| 18:42 |
paramat |
er, that actually means 180deg, the * 100 is just encoding |
| 18:42 |
Krock |
oh! |
| 18:42 |
Krock |
well then it's alright |
| 18:43 |
paramat |
some values are * 100 for some reason for packets |
| 18:43 |
paramat |
great |
| 18:44 |
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| 18:44 |
Krock |
but previously this factor 100 wasn't in there |
| 18:45 |
paramat |
see client.cpp line 936 onwards |
| 18:45 |
paramat |
yaw was previously * 100 |
| 18:46 |
paramat |
so when adding extra yaw the * 100 is correct |
| 18:46 |
paramat |
because it's addition not multiplication |
| 18:47 |
Krock |
no, it's not. The calculating part is done within "writePlayerPos" |
| 18:48 |
Krock |
there's where it multiplies by 100, not before. |
| 18:48 |
paramat |
sorry wrong line number, code has changed |
| 18:48 |
paramat |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/client.cpp#L1023 |
| 18:48 |
Krock |
nvm, I found it already :) |
| 18:49 |
paramat |
so yaw * 100, then if 3rd person add another 180 * 100 |
| 18:49 |
Krock |
it should add just 180 instead of 18000 |
| 18:50 |
Krock |
if this should be a 1/2 turn |
| 18:50 |
paramat |
nah, because result is (yaw + 180) * 100 which is correct encoding |
| 18:50 |
paramat |
adding 180 would add 1.8 deg |
| 18:52 |
Krock |
oh, we're talking past eachother |
| 18:53 |
paramat |
oh you're talking about sendPlayerPos |
| 18:53 |
Krock |
check out lines 946 to 949 in the pull's diff. there it's correct, but only there |
| 18:53 |
Krock |
yes, right |
| 18:53 |
paramat |
sorry, will look again |
| 18:54 |
Krock |
hehe. I already wondered how this mess could even start :3 |
| 18:54 |
paramat |
hm you may be right here |
| 18:55 |
paramat |
depends on whether myplayer->getYaw() returns * 100 |
| 18:55 |
Krock |
no, checked that before. it's not encoded |
| 18:55 |
paramat |
ok sorry |
| 18:56 |
Krock |
no problem. I'm glad we solved this little conversation problem :) |
| 18:58 |
nerzhul |
sfan5 are you around please ? |
| 19:01 |
Shara |
paramat: recipe and durability now adjusted for handholds. |
| 19:02 |
paramat |
ok |
| 19:06 |
Shara |
Not sure if there is anything else I can adjust, so down to MTG devs now. |
| 19:46 |
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| 19:58 |
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| 20:02 |
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| 20:07 |
red-001 |
nerzhul, you can check off "Add a function to generate minetest color codes" from #5394 |
| 20:07 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5394 -- [CSM] Second Roadmap |
| 20:07 |
nerzhul |
done |
| 20:11 |
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| 20:17 |
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| 20:17 |
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| 20:18 |
nerzhul |
thanks for the tip red-001 |
| 20:19 |
nerzhul |
i hope at some point my clang-format PR will be merged, then i will work to a blacklist for it, permitting to block CI when codestyle is wrong in files not in blacklist, permitting coredev to focus less on codestyle |
| 20:30 |
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| 20:33 |
nerzhul |
sofar, can you tell us if you approve #5436 ? |
| 20:33 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5436 -- [CSM] Change command prefix to "." and add "help" command. by red-001 |
| 20:33 |
nerzhul |
it seems all smalljoker points are fixed |
| 20:35 |
OldCoder |
Hm. I just woke up. Will the devs accept nerzhul solution with additional work or not? |
| 20:42 |
sofar |
nerzhul: I didn't test the code or verify it works |
| 20:42 |
sofar |
nerzhul: but the '.' I approve |
| 20:45 |
nerzhul |
sofar, if you get some time, don't hesitate to review, it's mainly a code move from server side + little additions client side |
| 20:45 |
nore |
hmm, why "." and not some other character, like "\"? |
| 20:45 |
nerzhul |
\ is a pain to type |
| 20:45 |
nore |
";" then? |
| 20:45 |
nore |
or even "," |
| 20:46 |
nerzhul |
and . is common in many games, like World of Warcraft for example |
| 20:46 |
nerzhul |
.toto is better than ,toto no ? |
| 20:46 |
sofar |
'.' is already used widely |
| 20:46 |
nore |
I mean, I use "." as the beginning of messages much more that "," or "/" |
| 20:46 |
sofar |
it's also one key off / |
| 20:46 |
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| 20:46 |
nore |
sofar: "," is quite close as well :) |
| 20:47 |
sofar |
twice as far on my keyboard |
| 20:47 |
nerzhul |
nore, in azerty yes, not qwerty |
| 20:47 |
nore |
hmm, maybe provide a way to use "." at the beginning of messages then? |
| 20:47 |
nerzhul |
if not a command, it's sent to server |
| 20:47 |
sofar |
/say .hello. |
| 20:48 |
nerzhul |
red-001, am i right ? |
| 20:48 |
nore |
nerzhul: no, it's also quite close, I have a qwerty keyboard |
| 20:48 |
nore |
ah, in that case it's ok for me |
| 20:48 |
nore |
as long as you don't call a command "..." :) |
| 20:49 |
nerzhul |
this should be stupid, but client side and just annoy client :p |
| 20:49 |
VanessaE |
I write "..." by itself pretty frequently |
| 20:50 |
nerzhul |
type " ..." :p |
| 20:50 |
sofar |
.password oops this ended up in global chat |
| 20:50 |
VanessaE |
imho if you need a client-side command prefix, \ makes the most sense |
| 20:50 |
VanessaE |
and users seem to reach for that key when they want / anyway half the time. |
| 20:51 |
sofar |
\ is gonna drive me crazy |
| 20:51 |
nore |
sofar: why so? |
| 20:51 |
sofar |
it's the default escape character |
| 20:51 |
sofar |
do\ you\ know\ how\ often\ I\ use\ it? |
| 20:51 |
VanessaE |
I assume never, in in-game chat :P |
| 20:52 |
VanessaE |
(at least not as an escape, anyway :) ) |
| 20:52 |
nore |
sofar: s/\\\ // :p |
| 20:52 |
nerzhul |
yes \ is for escape, and as sofar said many games are using . and it works without crying |
| 20:58 |
OldCoder |
I will be making a statement here with C55's permission |
| 20:58 |
OldCoder |
It will be about 5 paragraphs. I can simply link it but as it includes a significant announcement I ask for permission to state it explicitly as well. |
| 20:59 |
sofar |
if it's significant, feel free to verbatim post it in here |
| 21:01 |
OldCoder |
Will do subsequent to review by C55 and others in the next half hour |
| 21:01 |
OldCoder |
To be clear, the text will be quoting C55 and I have his approval |
| 21:02 |
sfan5 |
a statement about what |
| 21:02 |
sfan5 |
if its about the sneak thing, you can stop before you even begin #5443 |
| 21:02 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5443 -- Bring back sneak elevators/ladders by sfan5 |
| 21:03 |
OldCoder |
sfan5, your own remarks about forks were a little derisive. But, go on. |
| 21:04 |
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| 21:04 |
sfan5 |
my remark about outdated mess was not about forks |
| 21:04 |
OldCoder |
Very well |
| 21:04 |
OldCoder |
I'd like to make a key point that C55 and I agree on. It can wait while your own issue and/or PR is discussed |
| 21:05 |
OldCoder |
Shall I yield the floor to you for that, sfan5 ? |
| 21:05 |
sfan5 |
say what you want to say |
| 21:05 |
OldCoder |
It will depend on the sneak resolution though the key point is the same regardless |
| 21:05 |
OldCoder |
I'll hold it for a day if you have a proposal |
| 21:06 |
VanessaE |
OldCoder: dude. out with it. |
| 21:06 |
sofar |
don't do that, you can't have an open discussion if people withold their voice for some reason |
| 21:06 |
OldCoder |
It needs to be reworded if there is a proposal on the table |
| 21:06 |
OldCoder |
Very well |
| 21:06 |
OldCoder |
C55 and others need to review it |
| 21:06 |
OldCoder |
Excuse me while I attend to that |
| 21:07 |
celeron55 |
this is kind of silly; even i don't know what the announcement is |
| 21:07 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, PM to review it |
| 21:08 |
OldCoder |
And I covered part of this in our PM about 5 hours ago. Have not had much sleep BTW. |
| 21:08 |
* OldCoder |
notes that Old Coders need to snooze now and then |
| 21:10 |
celeron55 |
well, i'd recommend sleeping over anything MT-related but that's just me, lol |
| 21:11 |
OldCoder |
Hm. Well, I try to balance things. MT and sleep are both important. |
| 21:11 |
* OldCoder |
is editing |
| 21:15 |
sofar |
"do not pay attention to the man behind the curtains" |
| 21:19 |
OldCoder |
Hm? |
| 21:22 |
celeron55 |
is this about the fork or what? |
| 21:22 |
celeron55 |
the fork by the group of people that really like sneak ladders |
| 21:25 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, you will be linked in PM very shortly |
| 21:25 |
OldCoder |
Wording this carefully because the goal is unify and not disrupt |
| 21:25 |
VanessaE |
maybe mt_game should have a LBM that detects sneak elevators and replaces them with stacks of cobble and ladders :) |
| 21:26 |
Fixer |
someone forks mt over a bug? |
| 21:27 |
paramat |
well a fork is unnecessary, this is a dev version after all and we are putting effort into keeping people happy |
| 21:27 |
paramat |
using a dev version there is a risk of stuff being a bit broken sometimes |
| 21:34 |
OldCoder |
Fixer, fork or spoon is about a much more basic issue |
| 21:34 |
OldCoder |
And it isn't easy to find the right words sometimes. Working on it. |
| 21:35 |
OldCoder |
This is the issue that, in the end, "killed" Maciek. And we've lost others the same way. |
| 21:35 |
OldCoder |
I've observed this for 5 years. BTW This Spring is my 5th anniversary. |
| 21:37 |
red-001 |
<nerzhul> if not a command, it's sent to server No the client captures all client-sided commands, I could add a way to escape a command so it's sent to the server |
| 21:38 |
red-001 |
e.g. you can use .. instead of . to send a message that starts with . |
| 21:38 |
red-001 |
/s/can/could |
| 21:42 |
red-001 |
if someone has time could they review #5444? |
| 21:42 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/5444 -- Add multiline support to colorize. by red-001 |
| 21:47 |
paramat |
well, another fork could be a good thing :] |
| 21:47 |
celeron55 |
the most interesting thing about forks is finding out what name they ended up using |
| 21:48 |
celeron55 |
so far there are minetest forks with interesting names and boring names |
| 21:48 |
red-001 |
minetest-test |
| 21:48 |
nerzhul |
the collisionmove porting to server side is annoying, or i should rewrite it in a simpler way ... mmm |
| 21:53 |
paramat |
minepass |
| 21:53 |
paramat |
btw freeminer has had no dev for 3 months |
| 21:54 |
OldCoder |
freeminer is dead |
| 21:54 |
OldCoder |
nerzhul, see IRC PM |
| 21:54 |
celeron55 |
i guess they're happy they protected their work by changing the license so that nobody can reuse it |
| 21:55 |
nerzhul |
already looked for just not commented |
| 21:57 |
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| 21:58 |
paramat |
meyencandy? shinyminey? |
| 21:59 |
red-001 |
we should document that american and not british english should be used for api functions since that seems to be the current precedent |
| 21:59 |
nore |
OldCoder: what is the problem, actually? |
| 21:59 |
OldCoder |
nore, PM thanks |
| 22:00 |
sfan5 |
paramat: >I support the intention of this PR, need some time to review as i do not yet understand the code enough. |
| 22:00 |
sfan5 |
if it detects a sneak ladders by its structure it sets m_sneak_ladder_detected=true |
| 22:01 |
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| 22:01 |
sfan5 |
and in the control handling code it allows you to jump if you press sneak and there's a sneak ladder there |
| 22:01 |
sfan5 |
(even if you normally weren't allowed to jump) |
| 22:01 |
sfan5 |
that's it |
| 22:01 |
Warr1024 |
minetest > mineter > minet |
| 22:02 |
sfan5 |
oh and it also limits y speed to >0 to prevent you from falling down again afterwards |
| 22:03 |
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| 22:09 |
OldCoder |
sfan5, see PM |
| 22:10 |
sfan5 |
seen it |
| 22:11 |
OldCoder |
Comment there if you wish. Press Reload for added comments by C55 at bottom. |
| 22:38 |
paramat |
ok thanks |
| 22:40 |
nerzhul |
i need an expert in movements to help me to finish #4981 |
| 22:40 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4981 -- [WIP] Damage cheat fix: server side by nerzhul |
| 22:41 |
nerzhul |
i ported the collision checks server side when falling, this permits to disable TOSERVER_DAMAGE & prevent cheat, but the ported code, whereas it's nearly same as client doesn't work well everytime |
| 22:41 |
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| 22:41 |
nerzhul |
sometimes collisions are not detected and sometimes multiple times |
| 22:41 |
nerzhul |
if a coredev can help me to finish this we, we can nuke clients which doesn't take damages due to hacked clients |
| 22:42 |
nerzhul |
the client algorithm is there: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4981/files#diff-f78a0d3142f422b5d1fc990f616d75b5R212 |
| 22:42 |
nerzhul |
and server https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/4981/files#diff-da1e28445fc732755d2b64683bd94ee4R972 |
| 22:43 |
celeron55 |
i'm going to guess it's a sync issue between the client and the server |
| 22:43 |
celeron55 |
and the code works otherwise fine |
| 22:44 |
nerzhul |
celeron55, yeah i think it's a sync problem too, i am locally and have thos problems, with internet between client and server this could be a little bit more complicated |
| 22:44 |
nerzhul |
celeron55, i think it's due to speed attribute sync |
| 22:45 |
nerzhul |
i have a death respawn damages, i think it's due to speed > 0 on respawn |
| 22:49 |
nerzhul |
okay resetting speed when respawning fixes it |
| 22:50 |
paramat |
about the sneak document: arrogant comments by 1 or 2 devs (by me for example) should not and do not represent all devs. my experience is that generally devs do listen to players and server admins a lot, and this is indeed happening on -project, effort is being made especially on the sneak issue |
| 22:50 |
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| 22:54 |
nerzhul |
celeron55, i don't really know how to fix the last remaining desync to prevent this non detected collision |
| 22:56 |
celeron55 |
is it due to the client telling the server to skip the collision? |
| 22:56 |
celeron55 |
like, saying the player is standing on ground with speed=0 before the server saw the player collided with the ground |
| 22:57 |
celeron55 |
a similar thing can make a double collision |
| 22:57 |
nerzhul |
my test are a little bit more simpler, i'm in fly, i disable it and fall, sometimes i don't take damages |
| 22:57 |
nerzhul |
yes for the double collision i can make a timer check to prevent this to happen |
| 22:58 |
nerzhul |
0.5 sec timer collision check disable you prevent laggy situation with double collisions |
| 22:58 |
nerzhul |
my main problem are not detected collisions... |
| 22:59 |
celeron55 |
when the client sends a packet with a new speed value, compare it with the old speed value |
| 22:59 |
celeron55 |
if there's a sudden stop, that's a collision 8) |
| 23:00 |
nerzhul |
oh i see what you mean, client set speed 0,0,0 and server set this to zero whereas we are in movement |
| 23:01 |
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| 23:01 |
celeron55 |
there are probably lots of details that need to be taken into account in that case and it'll never be perfect |
| 23:01 |
nerzhul |
yes, but if it detect 99.5% cases instead of 75% could be better :p |
| 23:02 |
nerzhul |
in fact lag will benefit to collision check because will notify speed = 0 slowly |
| 23:02 |
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| 23:04 |
celeron55 |
lag will make you take fall damage in cases where you barely manage to avoid it but the server doesn't know the fine details |
| 23:04 |
nerzhul |
also yes... it will not be easy... hmmm |
| 23:04 |
celeron55 |
that'll surely be annoying |
| 23:04 |
celeron55 |
like barely landing in water |
| 23:04 |
nerzhul |
how MC works, i don't think they let player send the damage like us |
| 23:05 |
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| 23:06 |
rubenwardy |
MC also uses TCP for sockets, so they're not a good example about good networking |
| 23:06 |
rubenwardy |
_however_ clientside prediction, server side reconciliation is good |
| 23:06 |
celeron55 |
i think some fast fps games run their physics in a fixed frame rate and then the server can exactly check the client's actions by running the exact same simulation delayed by the maximum amount of lag |
| 23:06 |
nerzhul |
TCP is not bad for reliable packets, but movements are not a good TCP packet |
| 23:07 |
nerzhul |
celeron55, we send position every 0.1sec |
| 23:07 |
nerzhul |
maybe i should do the collision check on same interval |
| 23:07 |
nerzhul |
it should be more accurate |
| 23:07 |
celeron55 |
that's far from exact |
| 23:07 |
celeron55 |
i don't think MT can ever have anything exact related to this though |
| 23:08 |
celeron55 |
nothing in MT is designed for exactness here |
| 23:08 |
nerzhul |
oh i don't remember server sent the recommended_send_interval |
| 23:08 |
nerzhul |
let me try to use this interval to see the difference |
| 23:10 |
nerzhul |
same effect |
| 23:11 |
nerzhul |
or maybe i should increase the speed from 1 to 5 % virtually server side |
| 23:14 |
nerzhul |
celeron55, maybe have a direction of player recording a vector between two server steps + compensate with a speed 5% factor can compensate |
| 23:15 |
nerzhul |
if i set speed * 1.1 i see less non collision cases, but it's far from being perfect |
| 23:21 |
nerzhul |
celeron55, the send interval is in fact sync with server step... then we send the positions less often than step due to lag, this is the lag cause |
| 23:31 |
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| 23:43 |
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| 23:49 |
OldCoder |
|
| 23:49 |
OldCoder |
http://minetest.org/sneak.html |
| 23:49 |
OldCoder |
If you have already seen this, press Reload. A number of comments by others have been added. |
| 23:49 |
OldCoder |
http://minetest.org/sneak.html |
| 23:49 |
OldCoder |
|
| 23:50 |
OldCoder |
celeron55, rubenwardy, nore, sofar, others, thank you for your comments |
| 23:51 |
OldCoder |
Zeno`, Fixer, Robby, twoelk, DI3HARD139, paramat, Billre, Calinou, others, feel free to weigh in |
| 23:51 |
OldCoder |
|
| 23:51 |
OldCoder |
http://minetest.org/sneak.html |
| 23:51 |
OldCoder |
AFK for a while in a bit |
| 23:51 |
OldCoder |
|
