| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:06 |
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| 03:52 |
RealBadAngel |
lookin at logs it was a very silent day yesterday ;) |
| 03:52 |
RealBadAngel |
whats up folks? |
| 04:30 |
kahrl |
have to do some image processing coding for work, not much time for minetest currently :( |
| 04:33 |
RealBadAngel |
on this weekend im moving to a new flat, so i will be offline for a few days |
| 04:35 |
RealBadAngel |
depends on how fast the provider enable the connection for me |
| 04:38 |
RealBadAngel |
before i go offline i will post bumpmapping patch, moon flowers and new dye crafting system |
| 04:41 |
RealBadAngel |
moon flower will provide brand new fluorescent dye |
| 04:42 |
RealBadAngel |
imho way better than torch in crafting recipes to get glowing nodes |
| 04:42 |
RealBadAngel |
and mortar+pestle item to craft dyes |
| 04:44 |
RealBadAngel |
and to PilzAdam, yes im aware minecraft doesnt do this that way |
| 04:45 |
RealBadAngel |
imho we have to stop following mc and go our own way |
| 04:46 |
RealBadAngel |
we are already at this point where mc can look at us at copy our ideas. its Jeb's work |
| 04:47 |
RealBadAngel |
*and |
| 04:47 |
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nyuszika7h joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:49 |
kaeza |
nice idea about flurescent dyes |
| 04:49 |
kaeza |
for example, homedecor lamps (previously from 3dforniture) used torches along with paper |
| 04:50 |
kaeza |
*table lamps |
| 04:50 |
kaeza |
that would invite trouble IRL :P |
| 04:52 |
RealBadAngel |
hehe indeed |
| 04:53 |
RealBadAngel |
crafting burnin torch with something else? nothin but fire |
| 04:55 |
RealBadAngel |
fluorescent dye could be used for crafting nodes that emits light, mesecons displays, monitors etc |
| 04:55 |
RealBadAngel |
and will be logical |
| 04:59 |
RealBadAngel |
and when we get hardware light workin, lamp + fluorescent dye + coloured dye |
| 05:00 |
RealBadAngel |
to get coloured light source |
| 05:03 |
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emptty joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:15 |
hmmmm |
hmmmmmm |
| 05:15 |
hmmmm |
not a minetest related question but, does anybody know what the GNU make equivalent to bsd's .ifmake is? |
| 05:35 |
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| 05:37 |
RealBadAngel |
no fuckin idea what youre talkin about |
| 05:38 |
kahrl |
not sure either but maybe this? http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/html_node/Target_002dspecific.html |
| 05:50 |
hmmmm |
ahh |
| 05:51 |
hmmmm |
thank you actually that does the trick nicely |
| 05:52 |
RealBadAngel |
hi hmmmm |
| 05:52 |
hmmmm |
hello |
| 05:53 |
RealBadAngel |
i will be out for a few days |
| 05:53 |
RealBadAngel |
starting tommorow |
| 05:53 |
RealBadAngel |
im moving to a new flat |
| 05:53 |
hmmmm |
ah nice |
| 05:54 |
RealBadAngel |
i will be back as soon as provider connect me in |
| 05:54 |
hmmmm |
okay |
| 05:55 |
RealBadAngel |
they told me "a few days" but im not sure |
| 07:25 |
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| 07:34 |
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| 08:07 |
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| 08:14 |
kahrl |
any objections? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/742 |
| 08:15 |
kahrl |
I've seen this bug happen randomly before and didn't know what caused it |
| 08:15 |
kahrl |
and I don't think anything could break from initializing SEvent structs properly |
| 08:16 |
sapier1 |
why is keyInput moved? |
| 08:17 |
sapier1 |
keyInput.key to be exact |
| 08:17 |
sapier1 |
ok ok its just resorting for better readability |
| 08:17 |
kahrl |
yes, for code symmetry I assume |
| 08:18 |
sapier1 |
hmm only a single change of that commit will remain after formspec menu merge |
| 08:19 |
kahrl |
ah, I wasn't sure if that collided anywhere |
| 08:19 |
kahrl |
good that you checked |
| 08:20 |
sapier1 |
guiCreateWorld is removed completely guiFormspec is changed to huge extent ... guiTextInput ... wasn't that the part PlizAdam wanted to remove because it isn't used anymore? |
| 08:20 |
sapier1 |
but I'm not sure about later thing |
| 08:21 |
kahrl |
last time I checked guiTextInputMenu was still used in your branch for chat input? |
| 08:22 |
kahrl |
if it can be replaced with a formspec that could be done |
| 08:24 |
sapier1 |
I didn't do any changes on ingame menus I guess the chat menu could completely be replaced by lua implementation |
| 08:25 |
sapier1 |
ok somehow the "/" key needs to trigger lua action .... but if this isn't working already I guess lots of moders will be thankfull to the one adding on_key_press(<any key>) |
| 08:27 |
kahrl |
that would make opening the chat menu a lot laggier though |
| 08:27 |
kahrl |
not sure how annoying that would be |
| 08:27 |
sapier1 |
so if you cherry pick the guiTextInput changes this merge will be ok :-) everything else is useless :-) |
| 08:28 |
sapier1 |
I add the guiFormspec fix to my patch |
| 08:28 |
kahrl |
how close is the next gen main menu to being ready to merge? |
| 08:29 |
sapier1 |
I haven't heared any complains for a while so I guess it's (almost) done |
| 08:30 |
sapier1 |
only issues left are "game buttons don't look exactly same as before" and "you have to click once to catch mouse after join" |
| 08:30 |
sapier1 |
first is a minor issue |
| 08:31 |
kahrl |
and my dynamic_cast issues, I'll try to hunt them down again today |
| 08:31 |
sapier1 |
yes that's the more obscure 3rd one I thought you already fixed it as you didn't say anything about it |
| 08:31 |
kahrl |
I just didn't have time to look at it |
| 08:32 |
sapier1 |
quicks solution would be using c casts but I guess that'd hide the real problem |
| 08:32 |
kahrl |
I'd rather not do that |
| 08:33 |
sapier1 |
me too as that special case is exactly what dynamic_cast's are for |
| 08:38 |
kahrl |
when I try to run the current next_gen_main_menu branch it fails on startup |
| 08:38 |
kahrl |
http://paste.dy.fi/Soo |
| 08:39 |
sapier1 |
curl or non curl mode? |
| 08:39 |
kahrl |
curl is compiled in, not sure if that means curl mode |
| 08:40 |
sapier1 |
I don't have curl ;-) |
| 08:40 |
sapier1 |
but this needs to be fixed of course |
| 08:42 |
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Calinou joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:45 |
sapier |
can you check latest version? I changed the checks for int json values |
| 08:46 |
sapier |
but I wonder why this did throw an exception for you this means the max_clients value isn't an int value |
| 08:49 |
kahrl |
it works now |
| 08:49 |
sapier |
ok wonder why noone did report this before |
| 08:49 |
kahrl |
I'll make it print out the JSON to see what might be wrong |
| 08:49 |
kahrl |
guess noone checked ;) |
| 08:50 |
sapier |
yes that's probably best explanaition |
| 08:52 |
kahrl |
I peppered mainmenu.lua with print statements and it used to fail in get_favorites("local") |
| 08:52 |
kahrl |
so maybe my local serverlist is somehow broken |
| 08:52 |
sapier |
local? hmm |
| 08:52 |
sapier |
of course there is no max clients |
| 08:53 |
sapier |
ok the previous check was wrong as it checked size of string ... i assumed this'd be 0 in local case |
| 08:53 |
sapier |
obviously a missinterpretation |
| 08:53 |
sapier |
so the new version is fine |
| 08:54 |
sapier |
lol |
| 08:55 |
sapier |
in online case l_get_favourites fetches local list |
| 08:55 |
sapier |
I guess this is exactly inverted |
| 08:56 |
kahrl |
heh indeed |
| 08:56 |
sapier |
not a critical bug but anoying :) fixed |
| 08:59 |
kahrl |
are there any other places where a unexpected online serverlist can crash the client? |
| 08:59 |
kahrl |
such as missing fields or wrong-typed ones |
| 09:01 |
sapier |
I changed the two number values in there to "asInt" and fixed their checks, everything else was there in previous minetest versions too |
| 09:02 |
kahrl |
ok |
| 09:02 |
sapier |
everything else (i know about) are stirng values checked by stringlength |
| 09:02 |
kahrl |
I will audit this part a bit after the new menu is merged and try to fix problems I see |
| 09:03 |
kahrl |
some of it might be security relevant |
| 09:03 |
sapier |
ok thanks ... if you have sparetime try to check the mod and gamemanager too |
| 09:03 |
sapier |
they're disabled by default |
| 09:03 |
kahrl |
not much currently but I'll try to find some time |
| 09:04 |
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| 09:05 |
sapier |
at least modmanager is most likely to be enabled anytime soon as it's intended to be used as central instance for installing mods including moddb online integration (to be done) |
| 09:14 |
kahrl |
I guess I should be happy that you fixed the problem but it makes me feel nervous that I don't understand why it failed ;) |
| 09:14 |
kahrl |
this is the JSON it choked on: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5719324/ |
| 09:15 |
kahrl |
all the "clients" and "clients_max" fields seem to be convertible to int |
| 09:18 |
kahrl |
hmm if I read the implementation of isConvertibleTo correctly then isConvertibleTo(intValue) never returns true for a string |
| 09:18 |
sapier |
very strange |
| 09:19 |
sapier |
great |
| 09:19 |
kahrl |
and asInt does not parse a string it just coerces other numeric types |
| 09:19 |
sapier |
ok I guess the solution was to easy .. I'll do it manually and push again |
| 09:19 |
sapier |
what the hell are those functions for if they don't do anything usefull? |
| 09:20 |
kahrl |
they are for giving you a happy fun time developing |
| 09:20 |
kahrl |
until the QA department comes to you and says it doesn't work ;) |
| 09:21 |
sapier |
imho if you supplie a asInt function for a generic datatype this function should be able to give you any convertable value asInt ... like the name says ;-) |
| 09:23 |
kahrl |
why does the online serverlist store some of the numeric fields as string anyway? |
| 09:23 |
sapier |
I don't have any idea :-) |
| 09:23 |
sapier |
most likely because the one writing it didn't bother about datatypes |
| 09:24 |
kahrl |
huh and "damage" is sometimes "1" and sometimes "true" |
| 09:24 |
kahrl |
ah, guess that's directly from minetest.conf |
| 09:25 |
sapier |
I guess I found next bug ... so damage might be 0/false in server list too am I correct? |
| 09:25 |
kahrl |
anything that Setting::getBool can parse, I assume |
| 09:25 |
kahrl |
Settings* |
| 09:26 |
kahrl |
so use is_yes |
| 09:26 |
sapier |
great ... so I need to parse any stupid value ... imho reading is wrong place to fix this ... but it's allmost impossible to revert the errorneous design of serverlist out there |
| 09:27 |
sapier |
there is a is_yes function? |
| 09:27 |
kahrl |
there is, in util/string.h |
| 09:28 |
sapier |
wow :-) good to know I added some helper code to menu to fix this issue ... I'll remove it and use is_yes |
| 09:32 |
kahrl |
is guiLuaApi::isMinetestPath used for sandboxing? |
| 09:33 |
sapier |
partly |
| 09:33 |
kahrl |
I'm asking because it looks like you can circumvent by using a path like /tmp/../etc/passwd |
| 09:33 |
sapier |
sandboxing wasn't main issue of formspec menu but where I needed to check paths I did it in a sane way |
| 09:35 |
sapier |
fs::AbsolutePath fixes that issue |
| 09:36 |
sapier |
a function I've written originaly for security fixes and reused here |
| 09:36 |
sapier |
but |
| 09:36 |
kahrl |
is fs::AbsolutePath used on the path argument? I don't see it |
| 09:37 |
sapier |
yes you're right it's not used for tmp thats an error |
| 09:39 |
kahrl |
I think engine.delete_dir("/home/kahrl/minetest/worlds/../..") would also attempt to delete my home directory |
| 09:40 |
kahrl |
not going to try it ;) |
| 09:40 |
sapier |
no I don't think this would happen |
| 09:41 |
sapier |
absolute path for this is /home/kahrl |
| 09:41 |
sapier |
and isMinetestPath should return false for this |
| 09:41 |
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| 09:44 |
sapier |
ok json as well as isMinetestPath are fixed |
| 09:51 |
kahrl |
ah sorry I didn't see that l_delete_dir already called fs::AbsolutePath |
| 09:51 |
kahrl |
just looked at l_create_dir |
| 09:51 |
sapier |
no problem I didn't see the tmp error at beginning too |
| 09:52 |
celeron55 |
it's not secure enough until you can try delete_dir("/home/kahrl/minetest/worlds/../..") without pissing in your pants :P |
| 09:52 |
sapier |
yes create dir doesn't check .. I remember there was a reason for this ... hmm |
| 09:53 |
kahrl |
perhaps fs::AbsolutePath fails if the dir doesn't exist? |
| 09:54 |
kahrl |
yeah probably because of realpath returing ENOENT |
| 09:55 |
kahrl |
returning* |
| 09:57 |
kahrl |
one possibly solution for that is to take fs::AbsolutePath of the parent directory... and if that fails try the parent of the parent, and so on |
| 09:58 |
kahrl |
and call isMinetestPath on the first ancestor where fs::AbsolutePath works |
| 09:59 |
kahrl |
(also fail if the "parent" path component is ..) |
| 10:00 |
kahrl |
actually, not sure if the latter check is needed |
| 10:01 |
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| 10:04 |
kahrl |
ok so the only real issue left is being able to create a dir anywhere |
| 10:04 |
kahrl |
such as engine.create_dir("/home/kahrl/minetest/worlds/../../PWNED") |
| 10:06 |
kahrl |
all the other calls to isMinetestPath use (already used) AbsolutePath |
| 10:06 |
kahrl |
and being able to create arbitrary directories isn't that critical |
| 10:16 |
sfan5 |
what about disallowing ".."? |
| 10:18 |
kahrl |
path_share and path_user are ".." in RUN_IN_PLACE builds |
| 10:19 |
celeron55 |
i don't see much problem in checking create_dir paths |
| 10:20 |
celeron55 |
just strip the last part and see if the result is a legit path |
| 10:22 |
kahrl |
create_dir is like mkdir -p |
| 10:23 |
kahrl |
the parent directory doesn't necessarily exist either |
| 10:23 |
celeron55 |
well, then try all alternatives :P |
| 10:23 |
kahrl |
yup, that's what I'm coding ;) |
| 10:27 |
sapier |
I remember reason for not using absolute path in create dir was absolute path failing for non existent paths :-) |
| 10:28 |
sapier |
so creating recursive paths fails |
| 10:29 |
sapier |
if you strip until it works you may miss ".." ... unless you dissallow ".." completely |
| 10:29 |
celeron55 |
well, stripping ".." should probably be disallowed (otherwise it |
| 10:29 |
celeron55 |
+'s kind of complicated) |
| 10:30 |
sapier |
yes but this will result in a cripled create_dir ... yes it's more secure but to do it that way I need support of some core developers as there will be ppl not accepting that limitation |
| 10:31 |
celeron55 |
well, of course it can be done; it basically requires just stripping one legit dir per .. |
| 10:31 |
celeron55 |
8) |
| 10:32 |
sapier |
I didn't intend to reimplement realpath ;-) |
| 10:33 |
sapier |
you need to consider "/" "\" mixed pathnames too ... so I guess this is a lot more complicated |
| 10:33 |
celeron55 |
hmm, actually all it requires is automatically passing the input of create_dir through some path absolutizer |
| 10:33 |
* celeron55 |
is stupid |
| 10:34 |
sapier |
I'm not sure about that but I guess realpath resolves symlinks too |
| 10:34 |
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| 10:34 |
sapier |
yes it does |
| 10:35 |
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| 10:35 |
sapier |
if filling filesystem with dirs would be only security issue left I guess it'd be worth fixing it :-) but there are much more critical errors |
| 10:36 |
celeron55 |
well consuming all space or memory or something can't be taken as a concern |
| 10:36 |
celeron55 |
it can be done almost always anyway |
| 10:37 |
celeron55 |
you can do that even in web browsers :P |
| 10:38 |
kahrl |
hmm CreateAllDirs does something like pos = basepath.rfind(DIR_DELIM_C); |
| 10:38 |
kahrl |
to strip off path components |
| 10:38 |
kahrl |
which ignores '/' on windows although it shouldn't |
| 10:38 |
sapier |
grrr I just realized my last fix for "/tmp" check resulting in inability to create dirs in "/tmp" |
| 10:40 |
sapier |
I guess I need to fix the createdir problem to make this work correctly anyway |
| 10:41 |
kahrl |
sapier, I'm currently doing some stuff related to create_dir |
| 10:41 |
kahrl |
maybe it will already fix the /tmp problem |
| 10:41 |
sapier |
ok if doing so be sure that "isMinetestPath" must not be called with non existent directorys (as it's done atm) |
| 10:42 |
kahrl |
yeah |
| 10:43 |
kahrl |
although, are the calls to fs::AbsolutePath needed outside isMinetestPath? |
| 10:43 |
kahrl |
otherwise I might add an argument "bool mustExist" to isMinetestPath |
| 10:43 |
sapier |
atm it's not needed |
| 10:44 |
kahrl |
and let isMinetestPath handle both situations gracefully |
| 10:45 |
sapier |
this needs rewriting of isMinetestPath ... but I guess it's the way to go |
| 10:46 |
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| 10:46 |
kahrl |
isMinetestPath could also return the absolute path somehow but that might not be needed |
| 10:47 |
sapier |
I'll do the isMinetestPath changes so createdir only needs to call it with false |
| 10:47 |
kahrl |
hang on, I have already started |
| 10:47 |
sapier |
I guess we need a "unrelative" function first removing all ".." from a path |
| 10:48 |
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| 10:48 |
sapier |
from this path you can start stripping elements until realpath succeeds |
| 10:49 |
sapier |
and we can remove fs::absolutepath from delete dir too if isMinetestPath handles this |
| 10:51 |
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| 10:55 |
kahrl |
brb |
| 10:56 |
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| 11:07 |
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| 11:08 |
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| 11:14 |
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| 11:17 |
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| 11:23 |
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| 12:34 |
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| 12:38 |
kahrl |
back |
| 12:54 |
kahrl |
sapier: I wrote RemoveLastPathComponent and RemoveRelativePathComponent functions |
| 12:54 |
kahrl |
https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5684778 |
| 12:55 |
kahrl |
I removed DIR_DELIM_C because it is a bad way of checking if a char is a dir delimiter |
| 12:55 |
kahrl |
since in win32 both '/' and '\\' are dir delimiters |
| 12:56 |
sapier |
ok I'm gonna merge this today evening thx |
| 12:57 |
sapier |
I need to fix the is_yes things too I guess it's better not to add a xth variant checking for yes to core if there already is one |
| 13:01 |
kahrl |
sapier: this gist is only the path functions, I've just started working on isMinetestPath again |
| 13:01 |
sapier |
oh ok if you want to do this too I wont stop you |
| 13:01 |
kahrl |
I can try |
| 13:02 |
sapier |
I guess it's good to to the isMinetestPath correct probably at some time it's gona be used to sandbox modding too ... but I doubt this will be anytime soon :-) |
| 13:07 |
kahrl |
hmm I just noticed that getAvailableWorlds checks $path_user/world too |
| 13:07 |
kahrl |
which is not an allowed path in isMinetestPath |
| 13:08 |
kahrl |
so the new menu will probably not be able to delete such a world |
| 13:10 |
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| 13:19 |
sapier |
looks like an error I've not been aware of that location for worlds :-) there are tooo much locations where mintest searches for worlds atm :-). Is this path an old path or a current path? |
| 13:20 |
kahrl |
a very old path but still supported |
| 13:20 |
sapier |
as no world can be created there maybe this is a chance to drop support? |
| 13:21 |
sapier |
I guess nobody would even notice :-) |
| 13:21 |
celeron55 |
very old = 0.3 |
| 13:21 |
kahrl |
it's easy to add a check for ./world in isMinetestPath |
| 13:21 |
celeron55 |
so if anyone updates 0.3 to 0.4 in-place, that's what he would stumble upon |
| 13:22 |
sapier |
is world format still compatible? |
| 13:22 |
celeron55 |
yes |
| 13:22 |
celeron55 |
i have an automated test utility to check such too |
| 13:23 |
sapier |
what about adding a test on bootup moving worlds to worlds folder? |
| 13:23 |
sapier |
of course asking user if he's ok with it |
| 13:23 |
sapier |
could be done in lua menu too |
| 13:24 |
kahrl |
if it's done in lua you need to add ./world to isMinetestMenu anyway ;) |
| 13:24 |
kahrl |
Path* |
| 13:24 |
sapier |
didn't think about that |
| 13:25 |
sapier |
still imho we need to get rid of some of those old compatibility code |
| 13:25 |
celeron55 |
no we don't; it's just a matter of adding a path to a list anyway |
| 13:26 |
sapier |
I'd have to look where this path is used too but I guess there need to be other modifications too |
| 13:26 |
celeron55 |
i sure hope this does not interfere at all with any server stuff |
| 13:27 |
celeron55 |
and the ability of MT to run a world from any location generally |
| 13:27 |
kahrl |
sapier: lua should not care where a world is located |
| 13:27 |
celeron55 |
actually, i *require* this |
| 13:27 |
celeron55 |
not just hope |
| 13:28 |
kahrl |
sapier: it gets the path from get_worlds and can assume isMinetestPath accepts the path |
| 13:28 |
sapier |
it's only about mainmenu ... I already realized mainmenu will never fit any requirements of any ppl around. imho it should only implement a sane subset |
| 13:28 |
celeron55 |
of course the menu can be unable to list such worlds, but the game should work |
| 13:29 |
celeron55 |
people may want to eg. associate minetest with world.mt files and run worlds that way |
| 13:29 |
sapier |
if it's that simple kahrl I don't have any problem with it I'm just worried some things might not work for worlds stored in world and ppl start complaining "but I can delet it why can't I do that" |
| 13:30 |
sapier |
celeron we're only talking about delete not working for worlds stored in "world" |
| 13:31 |
sapier |
at leat atm :-) maybe other things fail too |
| 13:32 |
kahrl |
if they fail they can be fixed |
| 13:32 |
sapier |
yes at cost of adding more complexity to mainmenu ... as always |
| 13:33 |
kahrl |
compatibility with old worlds is important |
| 13:33 |
sapier |
imho this is not a compatibility usecase |
| 13:34 |
sapier |
imho adding a import function keeping base code clean and maintainable is a better way to keep compatibility |
| 13:34 |
kahrl |
well if a certain features works with newly created worlds but not with ones created with an earlier version I'd say that's compatibility |
| 13:35 |
kahrl |
feature* |
| 13:35 |
sapier |
but still let's try if it's ok with just adding this path |
| 13:35 |
sapier |
maybe marking those worlds in world list with a different color |
| 13:36 |
kahrl |
the world will be called "Old World" |
| 13:36 |
kahrl |
getAvailableWorlds does this |
| 13:36 |
sapier |
ok good enough |
| 13:37 |
sapier |
sorry but I've to go now |
| 13:37 |
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| 14:31 |
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| 14:54 |
kahrl |
ohh |
| 14:54 |
kahrl |
I completely interpreted wrong why Old World can't be deleted |
| 14:54 |
kahrl |
the real reason is that mainmenu.lua:568 has a < where there should be a <= |
| 14:55 |
kahrl |
well I fixed isMinetestPath anyway which is good |
| 14:56 |
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| 14:58 |
kahrl |
well mainmenu.lua:557 actually |
| 15:04 |
kahrl |
all my modifications: https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5685589 |
| 15:05 |
kahrl |
the map.cpp change is the most dangerous one but I'm fairly certain it is safe |
| 15:05 |
kahrl |
I will also add unit tests for the new path functions I wrote |
| 15:07 |
celeron55 |
by the way, apparently GetTempPath can sometimes return an unusable path: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2365307/what-determines-the-return-value-of-path-gettemppath |
| 15:08 |
celeron55 |
(welcome to windows) |
| 15:09 |
celeron55 |
i guess it's not like anyone would expect that a modern OS could reliably spit out a path to store temporary files in 8) |
| 15:13 |
Zeg9 |
Modern OS ? Reliability ? |
| 15:13 |
Calinou |
you mean, "Modern OS ?" |
| 15:13 |
Calinou |
that's enough |
| 15:17 |
kahrl |
the reason TempPath is needed at all is for unzipping zip files |
| 15:17 |
kahrl |
maybe it can be changed to unzip in place |
| 15:23 |
kahrl |
or use cache/tmp maybe |
| 15:25 |
Calinou |
https://community.dev.fedoraproject.org/packages/minetest (link to "fedora" on downloads page) => 404 |
| 15:26 |
kahrl |
Calinou: 502 here |
| 15:27 |
Jordach |
http://i.imgur.com/7ufOThB.png |
| 15:28 |
kahrl |
Jordach: certificate is for *.fedoraproject.org |
| 15:29 |
kahrl |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcard_certificate "Only a single level of subdomain matching is supported." |
| 15:29 |
Calinou |
I just click "proceed" when I see that kind of warning :phoronix rolleyes: |
| 15:34 |
celeron55 |
that mostly doesn't matter as long as you consider browsing a https site without a proper certificate equal to http |
| 15:35 |
celeron55 |
which mostly means that if some intelligent person is tracking you, he'll know everything you input or view on the site |
| 15:38 |
celeron55 |
(altough that means a lot in the light that some people consider http not worth using for any purpose anymore) |
| 15:38 |
Calinou |
http is much faster than https |
| 15:39 |
celeron55 |
based on what |
| 15:39 |
Calinou |
personal tests? |
| 15:39 |
Calinou |
I don't have optic fiber *_* |
| 15:39 |
kahrl |
perhaps because in your case http got cached and https not? |
| 15:40 |
Calinou |
maybe |
| 15:40 |
Calinou |
but https still tends to whine when you're not using signing, and that is annoying |
| 15:40 |
Calinou |
that means you have to pay $90 to verisign & co to be considered "trusted" |
| 15:40 |
celeron55 |
https has a slightly more heavyweight handshake (because it has a handshake and http has not); after that's done, it's not slower at all (the encryption is very lightweight) |
| 15:41 |
celeron55 |
Calinou: website certificates are a different thing to https, altough in practice you stumble upon them on the net |
| 15:41 |
kahrl |
Calinou: I agree, it'd be nice if there was an option to "just encrypt, don't authenticate" |
| 15:41 |
Calinou |
ah ok |
| 15:41 |
celeron55 |
browsers are designed to handle certificates like that because it's the most secure way for end users |
| 15:41 |
celeron55 |
(that is, they trust only certain signing authorities) |
| 15:43 |
celeron55 |
also, yes, http can be cached easily and https cannot, so that'll make a lot of the speed difference most of the time |
| 16:06 |
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| 16:46 |
sapier |
kahrl unzip in place isn't an option as modmanager tries to verify folder name in order to reduce users problems with invalid mod folders .... that's been one of the original reasons doing this thing at all ;-) |
| 16:47 |
sapier |
and of course "in place" would add additional problems e.g. how to ensure no current mod is overwritten by unzip, how to make sure a mod doesn't modify another mod by unzipping a file to its folder ... lots of things, fixable but lot of work that can be avoided by temp paths |
| 16:50 |
sapier |
kahrl Calinou encryption without authentification is useless as anyone could claim to be the site you connect to capturing your encrypted traffic reencrypting to destination site |
| 16:59 |
celeron55 |
yeah; authentication "as the site you previously used at this url" is quite good though |
| 16:59 |
celeron55 |
and browsers do support it; they just warn quite loudly at the first time like in Jordach's screenshot |
| 17:00 |
sapier |
yes I read about an addon for firefox checking sites on p2p base too ... roughly if enough ppl think this site/certificate ist trustworthy its assumed to be |
| 17:01 |
sapier |
of course some other parameters are used to distinguish too |
| 17:02 |
sapier |
large amounts of memory have a big problem too ... they hide memory faults |
| 17:08 |
RealBadAngel |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/165 |
| 17:08 |
sapier |
:-) moonflower |
| 17:09 |
RealBadAngel |
im makin now the other part, with dyes |
| 17:10 |
RealBadAngel |
and the fluorescent dye of course |
| 17:10 |
Zeg9 |
RealBadAngel: can't wait to get this merged |
| 17:11 |
sapier |
I guess we need to establish some sort of voting system |
| 17:11 |
RealBadAngel |
all the code is by Taoki of course |
| 17:11 |
RealBadAngel |
i mean the flower |
| 17:12 |
Zeg9 |
sapier: do you mean for settings/kick/mute/ban ? |
| 17:12 |
RealBadAngel |
i just found out this flower (which is awesome) can be source of fluorescent dye |
| 17:12 |
sapier |
no for what mods shall be added to minetest_game |
| 17:12 |
RealBadAngel |
and this can be used to craft glowing nodes |
| 17:13 |
sapier |
we don't need voting in game as everyone uses minetest with trustworthy users as far as I have been told ;-) |
| 17:13 |
Zeg9 |
true |
| 17:13 |
Zeg9 |
Well. There is the forum poll but IIRC it needs to make a new topic for every poll... |
| 17:14 |
sapier |
not for core addons for game only |
| 17:16 |
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| 17:23 |
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| 17:42 |
sweetbomber |
hmmm: is any way i can peek on your mapgen_v7 fork? what is your github name? |
| 17:42 |
sweetbomber |
i wanted to get up-to-date on that |
| 17:42 |
celeron55 |
kwolekr |
| 17:43 |
celeron55 |
dunno if he keeps any online version up-to-date though |
| 17:44 |
celeron55 |
doesn |
| 17:44 |
celeron55 |
+'t look too much like so |
| 17:44 |
sweetbomber |
oh |
| 17:44 |
celeron55 |
most of it goes directly to upstream afaik |
| 17:45 |
celeron55 |
so what you have is probably reasonably recent |
| 17:46 |
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| 17:57 |
sweetbomber |
the thing is that, for example, i have heard that biomedef's are loaded from a config file, but by inspecting biome.cpp and biome.h i cant find anything related.. it seems to only register the biomes, not load data... |
| 17:58 |
sweetbomber |
anyway, that was just a detail |
| 17:59 |
sweetbomber |
ill structure my ideas based on current release |
| 17:59 |
celeron55 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/script/lua_api/luaapi.cpp#L153 |
| 17:59 |
celeron55 |
this is really all it takes as input, game content wise |
| 18:00 |
celeron55 |
it doesn't implement everything (hmmmm's "decoration" stuff will complement it) |
| 18:00 |
Jordach |
whats the decorations? |
| 18:01 |
sweetbomber |
oh! its called from lua! ok, got it |
| 18:01 |
celeron55 |
stuff that the map generator places on ground and inside ground |
| 18:01 |
Jordach |
aye. |
| 18:01 |
celeron55 |
sweetbomber: yes, all game content is inserted at load-time into the engine by lua |
| 18:01 |
hmmmm |
right, i'll have to finally commit that sometime soon |
| 18:04 |
proller |
any objections? https://github.com/proller/minetest/commit/5b4c714a6702cbb66a3a5eade1f0e0dadefd6ce2 |
| 18:04 |
hmmmm |
hey sweetbomber, if your idea turns out to work correctly, perhaps you could have caves generated in a similar manner so that there's no need for border blocks in a chunk |
| 18:06 |
sweetbomber |
hmmm, in fact, i already have hatched an idea...but ill test it first on matlab |
| 18:07 |
sweetbomber |
lets rewind to the problem: |
| 18:08 |
sweetbomber |
if the PRNG is used to select the initial node/2dcoord of a structure |
| 18:08 |
sweetbomber |
and that structure can propagate to several chunks |
| 18:09 |
sweetbomber |
then when we are building a chunk it is not trivial to know if in that particular chuck a structure gets to be generated there |
| 18:09 |
sweetbomber |
moreover, the same structure must be generated no matter the order in which chunks are generated |
| 18:10 |
sweetbomber |
this can be summarized as a non-causality problem |
| 18:10 |
sweetbomber |
(imagine the trigger to build a structure as the "cause", and the structure as the "effect") |
| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
actually... use noise3d() instead of 2d, since there are overlapping terrain features |
| 18:11 |
sweetbomber |
(ill go to that point latter) |
| 18:11 |
sweetbomber |
as so, from any place the structure is to be built, we need to know that it is going to be built there |
| 18:12 |
sweetbomber |
what i thought was: |
| 18:13 |
sweetbomber |
imagine a surface like those built from using perlin noise as height |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
just so you're aware, this is a really big change |
| 18:15 |
hmmmm |
and it will probably degrade generation performance |
| 18:15 |
sweetbomber |
and use a certain threshold, above which it is considered that such section can accomodate structures |
| 18:15 |
sweetbomber |
this would solve the "know if chunk has structure or not" |
| 18:16 |
sweetbomber |
however there is another thing: whatever the chunk-load order, the structure(s) must be the same |
| 18:16 |
sweetbomber |
for that, one common feature must be taken from that section |
| 18:16 |
hmmmm |
you should keep in mind that with this, you'd still have to calculate every point in a much larger surrounding radius |
| 18:16 |
sweetbomber |
and im thinking taking such feature e.g. from the maximum of that function's at that cut |
| 18:17 |
hmmmm |
to be exact, the radius would need to be the largest size in all dimensions that a decoration could possibly be |
| 18:17 |
sweetbomber |
no, the point is exactly that: you dont have to load what you dont need |
| 18:17 |
sweetbomber |
imagine the following: |
| 18:17 |
sweetbomber |
you calculate the value of that function for the current chunk |
| 18:17 |
sweetbomber |
if it is under the threshold, no prob, there will be no structures in that chunk |
| 18:18 |
hmmmm |
are you using perlin noise for this and not plain positional noise? |
| 18:18 |
sweetbomber |
(btw, this threshold could be used to set the propability of generating a given type of structure) |
| 18:18 |
sweetbomber |
i am not sure yet what would be best for this... |
| 18:18 |
sweetbomber |
but continuing: |
| 18:19 |
sweetbomber |
if the function is above the threshold, the "common feature" must be extracted |
| 18:19 |
sweetbomber |
(this common feature is something that must lead to the same value in a given cut) |
| 18:19 |
sweetbomber |
for now, i am thinking of using the local maximum |
| 18:20 |
sweetbomber |
that maximum would be used to feed the structure generator |
| 18:20 |
hmmmm |
well, i guess it doesn't hurt to try to see if you can come up with something based on that |
| 18:20 |
sweetbomber |
that generator would iterate until it gets to nodes inside the current chunk, and then it would effectively commit them |
| 18:20 |
hmmmm |
i think the details are vague because they're not trivial to figure out, and when you do it might become more complicated than you thought it would be originally |
| 18:21 |
hmmmm |
i still think i'm right though. |
| 18:21 |
sweetbomber |
well, i think there are two aspects difficult to assess apriori |
| 18:21 |
sweetbomber |
first, the 2d noise function: what to use |
| 18:22 |
sweetbomber |
first, the 2d noise function: what to use and what its performance |
| 18:22 |
hmmmm |
nevermind the performance aspect |
| 18:22 |
sweetbomber |
second: the "virtual" (outside current chunk) structure generation must be fast |
| 18:22 |
sweetbomber |
or at least able to jump uncessesary steps |
| 18:23 |
sweetbomber |
regarding the use of 2d or 3d noise, i was thinking about the following |
| 18:23 |
sweetbomber |
each biome could have as parameters the input to a gaussian function, which would determine the probability of it occuring at a given height |
| 18:23 |
hmmmm |
if you're considering perlin noise, a large problem might be dealing with the variance of the steepness of slopes |
| 18:24 |
sweetbomber |
i got some matlab perlin-noise generator, and ill test with that |
| 18:25 |
sweetbomber |
(sorry about my matlab fetish, but i prefer to experiment with matlab than with something else) |
| 18:25 |
sweetbomber |
but using the gaussian curve as height probability would ease a lot of things |
| 18:25 |
sweetbomber |
first, each biome only require two more parameters: variance and mean |
| 18:26 |
sweetbomber |
and it would simplify e.g. the generation of special floating islands (like hidden paradizes, with hidden treasures) |
| 18:27 |
sweetbomber |
or the generation of stuff very deep underground (instead of nether-portals like in mc, it could be possible to dig a lot to the bottom and reach hell |
| 18:27 |
sweetbomber |
what do you think about these ideas? |
| 18:28 |
sweetbomber |
if you have nothing to note, ill try it and pay special attention to your warnings |
| 18:28 |
hmmmm |
pretty complicated and way out there, just don't be disappointed if something doesn't work |
| 18:29 |
celeron55 |
i think what you explained in detail about figuring out which chunk contains which structures doesn't really solve anything, or alternatively you're bad at explaining or i am bad at understanding |
| 18:30 |
hmmmm |
i understand what he means, i could probably demonstrate it better by drawing a picture but i couldn't be arsed to do that |
| 18:30 |
celeron55 |
probably everyone in here agrees about height-specific biomes though |
| 18:30 |
sweetbomber |
probably i explained myself wrong |
| 18:31 |
hmmmm |
again, if it works out, that's fantastic |
| 18:31 |
sweetbomber |
the height i was talking about was not of the game map, but of a f(x,z) function independent to the height |
| 18:31 |
proller |
will commit ! https://github.com/proller/minetest/commit/5b4c714a6702cbb66a3a5eade1f0e0dadefd6ce2 |
| 18:31 |
hmmmm |
proller, looks good |
| 18:32 |
proller |
tested ~week on "sky" |
| 18:32 |
hmmmm |
just a minor stylistic complaint though, i wish everybody would just put if (foo) return; on separate lines |
| 18:32 |
sweetbomber |
the structure generation algorithm is the one that would use all the other parameters already used (heat, humidity and height) |
| 18:32 |
proller |
ok |
| 18:32 |
hmmmm |
also you misspelled neighbors |
| 18:32 |
hmmmm |
but it doesn't really matter |
| 18:33 |
hmmmm |
oh sweetbomber, a problem i'm having with the biomes that i wasn't able to solve is that calculating what biome to use is an O(n) operation and i don't like that |
| 18:33 |
sweetbomber |
n is the number of biomes, i presume? |
| 18:33 |
hmmmm |
yes |
| 18:34 |
sweetbomber |
i believe it happens because it is searched what biome is more close to the head/humm/height of the area? |
| 18:34 |
PilzAdam |
proller, we have discussed to remove the finite liquid checkbox from the GUI some time ago |
| 18:35 |
hmmmm |
yes, finding the least distance |
| 18:35 |
PilzAdam |
proller, it just doesnt work so good and many people enable it without knowing what it is |
| 18:35 |
sweetbomber |
well, at a first glance, search algoritms can be optimized to something like log2(n) |
| 18:35 |
proller |
PilzAdam, and make it default? ;) |
| 18:35 |
sweetbomber |
but maybe it can be simplified |
| 18:36 |
sweetbomber |
because such optimization is based on tree search |
| 18:36 |
hmmmm |
if you could reduce this to nothing more than a searching problem, that'd be a big step in the right direction |
| 18:36 |
PilzAdam |
proller, so, what do you think about it? |
| 18:36 |
hmmmm |
it's not that simple though, since you'd need to calculate all of the distances from each of the biomes |
| 18:37 |
hmmmm |
which is the inherently O(n) part |
| 18:37 |
celeron55 |
it's highly likely not an unknown problem in mathematics though |
| 18:37 |
proller |
PilzAdam, many peoples like it |
| 18:37 |
celeron55 |
so there are some kinds of optimizations for it for sure (involving precalculating some kind of values, most likely) |
| 18:37 |
PilzAdam |
proller, many core devs dont like it |
| 18:37 |
sweetbomber |
celeron55, you are right |
| 18:37 |
proller |
PilzAdam, i use it without checkbox, remove if you want |
| 18:37 |
PilzAdam |
compared to the default behaviour the finite liquids suck |
| 18:38 |
proller |
default liquid - not liquid |
| 18:38 |
sweetbomber |
i think the biomes could be clustered offline |
| 18:38 |
Jordach |
with some work, this could be added into default: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5429 |
| 18:38 |
proller |
its blue blocks |
| 18:38 |
Jordach |
and use the bone blocks to craft bonemeal |
| 18:38 |
sweetbomber |
and then, the distance can be calculated first by looking for the nearest cluster, |
| 18:38 |
PilzAdam |
Jordach, we already have regrowing flowers and grass |
| 18:39 |
sweetbomber |
and then only look among the biomes in that cluster |
| 18:39 |
Jordach |
just 2c |
| 18:39 |
PilzAdam |
proller, the good thing in games it that we can define what a liquid is :-) |
| 18:39 |
hmmmm |
sweetbomber, i considered breaking the ranges for heat and humidity and elevation into like, 64 discrete values |
| 18:39 |
PilzAdam |
proller, also, finite liquids isnt really more realistic, water doesnt disappear |
| 18:39 |
sweetbomber |
depending on the number of clusters and biomes per cluster, this would do something inferior to O(n) |
| 18:40 |
hmmmm |
but 64x64x64 is 256 kb |
| 18:40 |
hmmmm |
and not only that but |
| 18:40 |
hmmmm |
you'd lose the precision needed for the elevation part |
| 18:40 |
sweetbomber |
yes |
| 18:40 |
RealBadAngel |
finite liquids require some more work just to become better |
| 18:40 |
sweetbomber |
did you understand my clustering idea? |
| 18:40 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, yes |
| 18:40 |
hmmmm |
let me re-read that |
| 18:40 |
celeron55 |
could some kind of quad tree kind of thing work |
| 18:40 |
RealBadAngel |
but considering removing them at all is wrong |
| 18:40 |
celeron55 |
or umm... |
| 18:41 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, but nobody seems to be interested in that (except proller and he thinks its good already) |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
lets talk what shall be done to make it better |
| 18:41 |
celeron55 |
was the point that you really only need some of the closest biomes for calculating which biome is actually applied? |
| 18:41 |
celeron55 |
(usually) |
| 18:41 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, I could make a list |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
ideas, we need ideas what shall be done |
| 18:41 |
hmmmm |
you're clustering them based on height, right? |
| 18:41 |
proller |
i think its better than default, and it need more wrk, as whole game |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
go ahead, make it |
| 18:42 |
hmmmm |
since that's the thing that needs to be exact |
| 18:42 |
RealBadAngel |
proller, ofc, thats the point |
| 18:42 |
sweetbomber |
imagine the simplest case: biomes are only defined by heat and humidity |
| 18:42 |
proller |
last idea - to make water dropable as sand |
| 18:42 |
hmmmm |
that's a simple 2d array |
| 18:42 |
proller |
but not finished |
| 18:42 |
hmmmm |
which wouldn't be a problem to precalculate at all |
| 18:42 |
sweetbomber |
this way, we can pin out the biomes in a plane and its easier to understand the idea (its easily scalable to 3d) |
| 18:42 |
RealBadAngel |
proller, PilzAdam maybe you two can make a list together |
| 18:43 |
proller |
and now i prepare commit to make liquid a bit better |
| 18:43 |
sweetbomber |
then, make clusters from the near biomes |
| 18:43 |
sweetbomber |
so, groups of similar biomes are grouped in one cluster, and so on |
| 18:43 |
RealBadAngel |
u both represent different points of view at this problem, so an agreement between u two shall be a good solution |
| 18:43 |
sweetbomber |
(there are efficient methods to do that, k-means for example) |
| 18:44 |
sweetbomber |
in the end, we have, lets say, 3 groups of biomes |
| 18:44 |
sweetbomber |
and each group (or cluster) has 3 biomes within |
| 18:44 |
sweetbomber |
this is all done offline |
| 18:45 |
sweetbomber |
now, to see what is the nearest biome, given heat and humidity |
| 18:45 |
sweetbomber |
we first see what is the next cluster |
| 18:45 |
sweetbomber |
O(3) |
| 18:45 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, proller, https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/5687050 |
| 18:45 |
sweetbomber |
and then within that cluster, we only need to search on 3 biomes |
| 18:45 |
sweetbomber |
O(3) again in this cse |
| 18:45 |
hmmmm |
well at this point it becomes a storage problem, not a complexity problem |
| 18:45 |
RealBadAngel |
btw, about biomes, any chance to define gravity for a biome? |
| 18:46 |
hmmmm |
realbadangel, sure, that'll go in with the sky color and other client-side things i guess. |
| 18:46 |
sweetbomber |
well, returning to 3d, a cluster would only be a 3d point |
| 18:46 |
RealBadAngel |
u know what i mean, outer space biomes for example |
| 18:46 |
sweetbomber |
so its quite compact |
| 18:47 |
Jordach |
biomes should also appear at certain heights as well as depths |
| 18:47 |
proller |
PilzAdam, 4 - its generate water filled caves, or dont join caves with ocean |
| 18:47 |
sweetbomber |
outer space like what? i am talking about the biome definitions, not where they should fit in the map |
| 18:47 |
PilzAdam |
proller, whatever fixes the problem |
| 18:48 |
proller |
but now by default ocean restor 0 level |
| 18:51 |
celeron55 |
sweetbomber: if you can make a reference implementation of optimized biome calculation, i figure it'd be very useful |
| 18:51 |
sweetbomber |
celeron55: ill give it a shot! |
| 18:52 |
sweetbomber |
hmmmm: got the idea? |
| 18:52 |
RealBadAngel |
sweetbomber, definin gravity for a biome will allow creating near core biomes with high gravity, aether biomes with antigravity, or space colonies without gravity at all |
| 18:52 |
celeron55 |
the input to it is biomes in n-dimensional space and later it is asked the closest biome to a point in the space |
| 18:52 |
hmmmm |
sure |
| 18:53 |
celeron55 |
n being... umm... 3? |
| 18:53 |
sweetbomber |
omg: i completely mixed up the chat |
| 18:53 |
celeron55 |
theoretically anything though |
| 18:54 |
celeron55 |
sweetbomber: nah, these other people mix it up |
| 18:54 |
RealBadAngel |
hehe |
| 18:54 |
sweetbomber |
for a moment i tought that RealBadAngel was hmmmm |
| 18:54 |
RealBadAngel |
i just throw in some random ideas ;) |
| 18:54 |
sweetbomber |
and answered as if it has anything to do with what we were talking about :p |
| 18:55 |
sweetbomber |
celeron55: are there any ideas about nether-like world? |
| 18:55 |
sweetbomber |
*about any |
| 18:55 |
celeron55 |
depends on who you ask :P |
| 18:56 |
sweetbomber |
lol, i mean as a long-term goal |
| 18:56 |
PilzAdam |
sweetbomber, there is a nether mod ;-) |
| 18:56 |
RealBadAngel |
PA have already a vision |
| 18:57 |
RealBadAngel |
hehe |
| 18:57 |
sweetbomber |
you know, there are things that people could just want to avoid, because it would look like too much like mc... |
| 18:57 |
sweetbomber |
so i like to be cautious about that |
| 18:57 |
celeron55 |
it's really hard to see who is even doing decisions here these days, but PilzAdam is used to making final decisions on game content these days |
| 18:57 |
celeron55 |
sweetbomber: for sure it shouldn't be the exact same |
| 18:58 |
sweetbomber |
the only thing i tought about different worlds, was to make it more physical: instead of magic portals, why not be possible to go there just by digging or making a giant tower? |
| 18:59 |
RealBadAngel |
lets make a topic asking for ideas |
| 18:59 |
RealBadAngel |
and collect best of them |
| 18:59 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: is that a joke? :-D |
| 18:59 |
RealBadAngel |
no, not at all |
| 18:59 |
PilzAdam |
sweetbomber, thats exactly what you can do in my nether mod ;-) |
| 18:59 |
hmmmm |
everybody forgot about the alternative generateTerrain()s =/ |
| 18:59 |
sweetbomber |
nice, got to try it |
| 18:59 |
celeron55 |
just browse the "feature discussion" section on the forum, you'll have year's worth of ideas for nether there :D |
| 18:59 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc most of ideas will be worth shit |
| 18:59 |
hmmmm |
nether is supposed to occur at -4000 and aether is supposed to occur at 4000 |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: supposed to according to what? |
| 19:00 |
hmmmm |
nether will be nothing more complicated than negative 3d noise, and the opposite with aether |
| 19:00 |
RealBadAngel |
but surely there will pop up some good ones |
| 19:00 |
hmmmm |
my original plans :/ |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
4000 is ridiculous from a gameplay perspective |
| 19:00 |
hmmmm |
remember, we decided against the alternative realms idea? |
| 19:01 |
celeron55 |
more like 800 |
| 19:01 |
hmmmm |
err |
| 19:01 |
hmmmm |
the intent was to have portals for this |
| 19:01 |
hmmmm |
being able to dig down into it is just a neat side-effect |
| 19:01 |
sweetbomber |
4k would make that a nice challenge :) |
| 19:01 |
celeron55 |
oh whatever; i just hope someone has a clear idea of what they are doing and by some magic chance it will also be good |
| 19:01 |
RealBadAngel |
heh i wanted Portal name for inter server connections ;) |
| 19:01 |
proller |
dig 4k not a big problem |
| 19:01 |
sweetbomber |
loads of cobble need to be digged - clearly a proof of work |
| 19:02 |
hmmmm |
having the alternative realms would require modifying practically all of the Map::getNode/getBlock-type functions |
| 19:02 |
proller |
4k tower - much harder |
| 19:02 |
sweetbomber |
oh! and there is a good thing: after digging 4k for going to nether, the next step would be to spend those 4k nodes in building the tower, lol :) |
| 19:02 |
hmmmm |
everybody thinks that digging seems to be the way to go |
| 19:03 |
RealBadAngel |
possible way |
| 19:03 |
hmmmm |
it's only possible because it's the easiest way to implement it |
| 19:03 |
RealBadAngel |
hard one, but still working |
| 19:03 |
hmmmm |
portals were intended from the start |
| 19:04 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: the original point of sweetbomber is that nether could be just an another kind of cave |
| 19:04 |
PilzAdam |
well, the easiest way is just remove the mapgen part of my nether mod and use it |
| 19:04 |
RealBadAngel |
imho digging your way to helll shall also be possible (and not eliminated) |
| 19:04 |
hmmmm |
well perhaps so |
| 19:04 |
hmmmm |
but i don't like it |
| 19:04 |
hmmmm |
the nether should be negative 3d noise like in minecraft |
| 19:04 |
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| 19:05 |
RealBadAngel |
imagine stairways to hell, or going there with cart |
| 19:05 |
RealBadAngel |
mc CANT do that |
| 19:05 |
PilzAdam |
hmmmm, what will be under the nether? |
| 19:05 |
RealBadAngel |
core |
| 19:05 |
hmmmm |
more nether |
| 19:05 |
RealBadAngel |
no |
| 19:06 |
RealBadAngel |
gravity that will not allow player to move |
| 19:06 |
celeron55 |
well, i think there could be much more different levels than only one nether |
| 19:06 |
RealBadAngel |
too high |
| 19:06 |
hmmmm |
you can't put a liquid underneath that or else it'll constantly try to transform and update the lighting, causing Server to become unresponsive |
| 19:06 |
hmmmm |
so perhaps at the very bottom there's bedrock |
| 19:06 |
RealBadAngel |
use physics to make the border |
| 19:06 |
RealBadAngel |
instead of some stupid bedrock |
| 19:06 |
hmmmm |
i'm trying to change as little as possible to other non-mapgen things |
| 19:07 |
RealBadAngel |
make a gravity trap |
| 19:07 |
PilzAdam |
hmmmm, you want a MC like nether; so thats maybe 100-200 nodes high; you want to have the full area under -4200 full of bedrock? |
| 19:07 |
hmmmm |
pilzadam, no, just bedrock starting at -30000 or something |
| 19:08 |
proller |
-30890 |
| 19:08 |
PilzAdam |
the MC nether is just one big cave |
| 19:08 |
hmmmm |
well, the exact number at which map generation cuts off depends on the chunksize setting |
| 19:08 |
PilzAdam |
do you want to have several of these caves? |
| 19:08 |
hmmmm |
probably, yeah. |
| 19:08 |
hmmmm |
we'll have different levels of nether |
| 19:09 |
proller |
and increasing lava -30000 -> -30890 (like 100% lava at -30800) |
| 19:09 |
sweetbomber |
well, on thing is sure, something must be done near the coordinates' overflow |
| 19:10 |
PilzAdam |
I like how its currently: just content_ignore |
| 19:10 |
sweetbomber |
i heard (i guess in the forum) something about bending the coord. system |
| 19:10 |
hmmmm |
no idea about that |
| 19:10 |
hmmmm |
no idea how it could even be done |
| 19:10 |
hmmmm |
and obviously it can't be done on the y axis even if it were possible |
| 19:10 |
sweetbomber |
and that would have a nice effect: digging a hole very low would take us to the sky! |
| 19:11 |
celeron55 |
falling out from 31000 would be quite a choppy experience |
| 19:11 |
hmmmm |
enough with the chatter... too much talk, not enough doing |
| 19:11 |
PilzAdam |
assume one of the nether caves is 500 nodes high, that would make 52 caves from -4000 to -30000 |
| 19:11 |
sweetbomber |
you're right |
| 19:11 |
hmmmm |
all these ideas flying around are worthless unless they're actually put into code |
| 19:11 |
PilzAdam |
thats definetly not good |
| 19:11 |
hmmmm |
let's first have the nether and then we'll decide on the fine details later |
| 19:11 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: their actual viability of being fun is also completely unknown |
| 19:12 |
celeron55 |
(until tried) |
| 19:12 |
hmmmm |
right |
| 19:12 |
hmmmm |
well |
| 19:12 |
PilzAdam |
we could also step away from the MC like nether and make it how I do it in my nether mod |
| 19:12 |
hmmmm |
honestly nothing is much fun without mobs |
| 19:12 |
PilzAdam |
just the normal cave system with netherrack that is really hard to break |
| 19:12 |
hmmmm |
pilzadam, that's not very fun |
| 19:12 |
PilzAdam |
have you tried it? |
| 19:13 |
celeron55 |
someone get drunk or something and just put mobs into upstream |
| 19:13 |
celeron55 |
i |
| 19:13 |
celeron55 |
i'm starting to see that the only way 8D |
| 19:13 |
hmmmm |
i haven't played minetest in about 6 months pilz |
| 19:13 |
Jordach |
put simple mobs in master |
| 19:13 |
hmmmm |
pilzadam rather |
| 19:13 |
Jordach |
EVERYONE WILL BE HAPPY |
| 19:13 |
hmmmm |
let's forget about the mobs right now |
| 19:13 |
hmmmm |
let's just work on what we're currently working on |
| 19:14 |
hmmmm |
getting too far ahead of things and it's distracting |
| 19:14 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: there are enough devs in here for one being able to focus on eg. getting mobs done while you work on whatever mapgen stuff you do |
| 19:15 |
hmmmm |
decorations are useful for mob placement |
| 19:15 |
celeron55 |
just don't attempt to try to understand everything that is going on |
| 19:15 |
sweetbomber |
want to know my idea of mobs: if we had infinite computer resources they should not exist. They should just be bots of players, where some could have wool, or leather, etc... |
| 19:15 |
sweetbomber |
and oc, could breed |
| 19:15 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, i answered your post about flower being useless |
| 19:17 |
sweetbomber |
hmmmm: returning to serious business: where can i find your biome-search code? |
| 19:17 |
sweetbomber |
ill pick that first to try my idea |
| 19:17 |
hmmmm |
BiomeDefManager::getBiome() |
| 19:17 |
RealBadAngel |
what others think about moon flower and fluorescent dye in default game? |
| 19:17 |
sweetbomber |
oh, its already commited, sorry...i couldve searched for it if i knew it |
| 19:18 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmmm, celeron55 ? |
| 19:19 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, see github |
| 19:19 |
hmmmm |
realbadangel, i don't really have much of an opinion on it |
| 19:19 |
hmmmm |
sorry |
| 19:19 |
PilzAdam |
it basically bloats the minetest_game with useless stuff |
| 19:20 |
PilzAdam |
if people like it then they can install the mod |
| 19:20 |
PilzAdam |
there is no need to put this into the game |
| 19:20 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: i think it's quite a slim idea until proven otherwise by people building some actually interesting mechanic on it |
| 19:20 |
RealBadAngel |
i have the code that uses it |
| 19:20 |
Jordach |
celeron55, it could be used for glowing mese picksa |
| 19:21 |
Jordach |
which are 2x as strong as a mese pick |
| 19:21 |
RealBadAngel |
but for make it work i need the source |
| 19:21 |
celeron55 |
well that |
| 19:21 |
celeron55 |
+'s useless |
| 19:21 |
celeron55 |
and if not useless, boring at least |
| 19:21 |
PilzAdam |
Jordach, you cant make tools much more faster than the current diamond pick |
| 19:21 |
Jordach |
PilzAdam, you can: instant |
| 19:21 |
sweetbomber |
lol |
| 19:21 |
RealBadAngel |
i wanted the flower to be the source of all glowing things |
| 19:22 |
celeron55 |
since when has "glowing things" been interesting at all 8D |
| 19:22 |
RealBadAngel |
so flower -> dye -> combine it with other thigs |
| 19:22 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, we will maybe have glowstone from the nether |
| 19:22 |
PilzAdam |
wich is much more original than a flower |
| 19:22 |
RealBadAngel |
why the fuck you want the root pull to deliver all the possible uses of it?? |
| 19:23 |
RealBadAngel |
fuck the glowstone |
| 19:23 |
PilzAdam |
fuck the flower |
| 19:23 |
RealBadAngel |
we are not mojang empleyees |
| 19:23 |
sweetbomber |
err... |
| 19:23 |
celeron55 |
:D |
| 19:23 |
hmmmm |
#shit-that-belongs-in-minetest-delta |
| 19:23 |
RealBadAngel |
i wont agree for glowstone at all |
| 19:23 |
PilzAdam |
why do discussions with RealBadAngel always end like this? :-) |
| 19:23 |
RealBadAngel |
because you are too minecrafty |
| 19:23 |
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| 19:23 |
celeron55 |
the minetest chaos development scheme (tm) |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
i think the flower is better than glowstone |
| 19:24 |
RealBadAngel |
we can do something different and you always go mc |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
because minecraft |
| 19:24 |
RealBadAngel |
thats why i get angry |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
but really, why not eg. glow mushroom and put it only in caves |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
or something remotely less random than a glowing flower |
| 19:25 |
PilzAdam |
btw: Pilz == Mushroom in german, so I like the idea :-) |
| 19:25 |
hmmmm |
in order for that glow flower to work right we need to improve lighting, seriously |
| 19:25 |
RealBadAngel |
i made complete new dye system btw |
| 19:25 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: not really |
| 19:25 |
hmmmm |
not really? |
| 19:25 |
hmmmm |
it's completely dull |
| 19:25 |
RealBadAngel |
and wanted to introduce it with parts |
| 19:25 |
hmmmm |
it's hardly a light at all |
| 19:25 |
RealBadAngel |
no cooking, but crafting |
| 19:25 |
hmmmm |
if you want to make a light seem to be small, you need to have it very bright at the center and die out quickly |
| 19:25 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, why not put the whole thing into one pull request? |
| 19:25 |
RealBadAngel |
mortar + pestle item |
| 19:25 |
celeron55 |
it aims at being a usable gameplay mechanic more than something realistic or particularly pretty |
| 19:26 |
PilzAdam |
so we actually see what you plan |
| 19:26 |
celeron55 |
and it's good at it |
| 19:26 |
hmmmm |
w/e |
| 19:26 |
hmmmm |
all that really needs to be figured out is unspreadLight(), and we'd be able to have light with a variable amount of spread |
| 19:26 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, i cannot do such thing. it requires changes to lotsa mods. |
| 19:27 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, so you want to introduce new way of producing things |
| 19:27 |
RealBadAngel |
i wanted to make it step by step |
| 19:27 |
RealBadAngel |
dyes |
| 19:27 |
PilzAdam |
like MC brewing and enchanting |
| 19:27 |
celeron55 |
really eg. dull lighting is just something on top of the underlying stuff; people all the time confuse the dullness of underlying mechanics with the dullness of look |
| 19:27 |
RealBadAngel |
not all the things |
| 19:27 |
celeron55 |
the mechanics don't get better by improving the looks |
| 19:27 |
celeron55 |
and so doesn't the play experience; people will be just more disappointed |
| 19:27 |
PilzAdam |
a basic element of MT and MC alpha + early beta was that there are only crafting and cooking |
| 19:27 |
PilzAdam |
this limitation makes it so interesting and fun |
| 19:28 |
RealBadAngel |
we dont know how to get something? lets cook it |
| 19:28 |
RealBadAngel |
for christ sake |
| 19:28 |
PilzAdam |
adding new things like brewing or what RBA wants just destroys this feeling |
| 19:28 |
RealBadAngel |
this is not mc |
| 19:28 |
RealBadAngel |
destroy mc feelin |
| 19:28 |
RealBadAngel |
is what i want |
| 19:28 |
PilzAdam |
I dont agree on bloating minetest_game with shiny new stuff |
| 19:29 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, I see minetest as a fork of MC |
| 19:29 |
Jordach |
PilzAdam, they werent complaining because they got decent updates worth playing |
| 19:29 |
Jordach |
and paying for |
| 19:29 |
RealBadAngel |
seriously? are you on mojang's pay list or what? |
| 19:30 |
RealBadAngel |
you kill all the pulls that are not mc like |
| 19:30 |
PilzAdam |
adding stuff to not be like MC is ridiculous |
| 19:31 |
PilzAdam |
*with the goal to be |
| 19:31 |
RealBadAngel |
adding stuff that is only mc like is more ridiculous |
| 19:31 |
celeron55 |
what i suggest is this: release a short-lived game where people can test more of your game content stuff |
| 19:31 |
celeron55 |
so that you can tell based on comments whether it is good or not as a whole |
| 19:31 |
celeron55 |
then if it is, it can be merged upstream |
| 19:31 |
celeron55 |
if not, then users are glad it wasn't merged |
| 19:32 |
RealBadAngel |
<RealBadAngel> https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/165 |
| 19:32 |
RealBadAngel |
<sapier> :-) moonflower |
| 19:32 |
RealBadAngel |
<RealBadAngel> im makin now the other part, with dyes |
| 19:32 |
RealBadAngel |
<RealBadAngel> and the fluorescent dye of course |
| 19:32 |
RealBadAngel |
<Zeg9> RealBadAngel: can't wait to get this merged |
| 19:32 |
celeron55 |
so did zeg9 play it? |
| 19:32 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, I fear that many people dont think enough to make such decissions |
| 19:32 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: that's why you need to have a lot of people test it |
| 19:33 |
celeron55 |
the problem with MT has always been that we have way too little game design experience to roll our own stuff |
| 19:33 |
PilzAdam |
my experience is that everyone shouts "YESS!!!!" |
| 19:33 |
celeron55 |
i included (altough these days i have learned a lot) |
| 19:33 |
RealBadAngel |
and you on the opposite shout "NOOOOO" |
| 19:34 |
RealBadAngel |
i also learned a bit so im not crying out loud to merge the changes |
| 19:34 |
sweetbomber |
if you allow me to express my feelings, i think there should something like a long-term goal and audience |
| 19:34 |
celeron55 |
so eg. here's something to read in order to know things game developers generally know: http://gamebalanceconcepts.wordpress.com/ |
| 19:34 |
celeron55 |
8) |
| 19:34 |
RealBadAngel |
i test the code for weeks before makin pull request |
| 19:34 |
celeron55 |
(that's a 10 blog post series) |
| 19:34 |
sweetbomber |
for example, do you think of making MT a game for which kind of people? |
| 19:35 |
sweetbomber |
e.g. redstone in minecraft gave it a geek audience |
| 19:35 |
sweetbomber |
where pvp, brewing and enchanting gave it a fps/rpg audience |
| 19:35 |
celeron55 |
sweetbomber: there *definitely* should be a long-term goal and an audience; if i was in lead, i would force there to be one, but i have slipped to other projects |
| 19:36 |
RealBadAngel |
we need them all |
| 19:36 |
RealBadAngel |
its a sandbox |
| 19:36 |
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| 19:37 |
PilzAdam |
I think we cant really find a long term goal |
| 19:37 |
PilzAdam |
there are so many different oppinions out there |
| 19:37 |
PilzAdam |
everyone will just start to cry and shout at the others if his vision isnt accepted |
| 19:37 |
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| 19:38 |
PilzAdam |
we just had a too long time without a real goal |
| 19:38 |
sweetbomber |
RealBadAngel: that would lead to a thing: something like real world. I am not disagreeing, it in fact leads to some interesting things, like doing real business inside MT (much like secondlife) |
| 19:38 |
RealBadAngel |
sandbox means everything |
| 19:38 |
celeron55 |
this describes MT's development currently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee |
| 19:38 |
RealBadAngel |
even things we would like not to allow |
| 19:39 |
RealBadAngel |
thats the freedom of it |
| 19:39 |
celeron55 |
"all things" is a thing too; it is very true |
| 19:39 |
PilzAdam |
e.g. if we would have made it clear that MT is a MC alpha clone, then many people who want to merge moon flowers wouldnt even came here |
| 19:39 |
celeron55 |
as well as some things by themselves are things |
| 19:39 |
sweetbomber |
but i think that goals must be chosen with some humility, and something like "everything" is awkward.. |
| 19:40 |
RealBadAngel |
mt was inspired by mc |
| 19:40 |
RealBadAngel |
but we are not limited to it |
| 19:40 |
RealBadAngel |
theyre suffering atm from lack of ideas |
| 19:40 |
celeron55 |
even if someone got a clear vision, it's quite hard to get MT out of the current design state |
| 19:41 |
PilzAdam |
I personally like the idea to make minetest_game a sandbox for mods |
| 19:41 |
PilzAdam |
this means not spamming the whole thing with more and more stuff |
| 19:41 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, thats what Im talking about |
| 19:42 |
RealBadAngel |
game needs content not only changes to its engine |
| 19:42 |
celeron55 |
i don't really know what to do about it, but i want people to understand it |
| 19:42 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, we definetly do have enough ideas |
| 19:42 |
celeron55 |
so they can grab at the chance if it arrives |
| 19:42 |
PilzAdam |
they are just conflicting with each others |
| 19:42 |
Jordach |
1) Tell them to fuck off |
| 19:42 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, your ideas, no offence, are too minecrafty |
| 19:42 |
Jordach |
(forgot what i had in my head) |
| 19:43 |
RealBadAngel |
all you do, leads to copy mc |
| 19:43 |
PilzAdam |
what does "too minecrafty" mean? is it bad? why? |
| 19:44 |
RealBadAngel |
we all have chosen celeron's project for a reason |
| 19:44 |
sweetbomber |
well, ive to go. theatre at 21:30 |
| 19:44 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: it is not, in no way, inherently a bad thing |
| 19:44 |
sweetbomber |
bye guys |
| 19:44 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: it's only a bad thing if you decide it is a bad thing |
| 19:44 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc its not bad to the bone |
| 19:44 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: some people agree with you, some not |
| 19:44 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: this is not single-dimensional like you think |
| 19:45 |
RealBadAngel |
it isnt, right |
| 19:45 |
PilzAdam |
I dont want that Minetest turns into a Anti-Minecraft project |
| 19:46 |
RealBadAngel |
me neither |
| 19:46 |
PilzAdam |
where we add moon flowers just to differ from minecrafts glowstone |
| 19:46 |
celeron55 |
minecraft is supposed to build upon minecraft alpha; not run away from it or continue with the path MC took |
| 19:46 |
celeron55 |
... |
| 19:46 |
celeron55 |
minetest is* |
| 19:46 |
RealBadAngel |
you forced me to say so, in anger |
| 19:46 |
RealBadAngel |
dont use it now please |
| 19:47 |
RealBadAngel |
i just found it out an awesome looking content |
| 19:47 |
RealBadAngel |
and logical source for needed content |
| 19:47 |
RealBadAngel |
and i KNEW you will be against it |
| 19:47 |
RealBadAngel |
because you are always against |
| 19:48 |
celeron55 |
i'm not against it; i'm just worried what kind of a larger concept it is a part of |
| 19:48 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, not as big as you think |
| 19:48 |
celeron55 |
there needs to be a chain of things building towards something in the future, not a random sea of stuff on a blob |
| 19:48 |
RealBadAngel |
just way to get glowing things and more sensible way to get dyes |
| 19:49 |
celeron55 |
yes, so it's essentially not wanted |
| 19:49 |
RealBadAngel |
but please notice i splitted it |
| 19:49 |
celeron55 |
it's not bad by itself, but in this context merging it doesn't make sense |
| 19:50 |
RealBadAngel |
flower is neutral |
| 19:50 |
RealBadAngel |
dye is a needed content |
| 19:50 |
celeron55 |
does someone want to hear my longest standing vision for minetest? |
| 19:50 |
PilzAdam |
yes |
| 19:50 |
RealBadAngel |
dye system i wanted to put on discussion |
| 19:51 |
celeron55 |
it's kind of embarrassingly far from most recent development, but not necessarily contradictory |
| 19:51 |
RealBadAngel |
thats why i havent made it one commit, and thx to it PA had a chance to call it useles |
| 19:52 |
Jordach |
celeron55, sure |
| 19:52 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, go on |
| 19:56 |
RealBadAngel |
have you said so to stop us arguing? ;) |
| 19:57 |
celeron55 |
i'm considering how to actually put it in words |
| 19:57 |
RealBadAngel |
cmon. shoot |
| 20:02 |
celeron55 |
what i wanted to do is build upon minecraft's dungeons in some kind of simplistic roguelike fashion with multi-layer dungeons, somehow sometimes making it necessary to build a smallish fortress to defend you from creatures crawling out of some dungeon |
| 20:03 |
celeron55 |
it's pretty far from this yay-lets-put-chairs-in-houses thing |
| 20:03 |
RealBadAngel |
as i mentioned before: sanbox |
| 20:03 |
RealBadAngel |
*sandbox |
| 20:04 |
RealBadAngel |
and we may want our fortresses to look good, our way |
| 20:05 |
RealBadAngel |
those things doesnt mean conflict |
| 20:05 |
celeron55 |
they mean distraction |
| 20:06 |
celeron55 |
people like to focus on some thing |
| 20:06 |
RealBadAngel |
let them allow to focus on what they want to |
| 20:06 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, "sandbox" is not the solution for everything |
| 20:06 |
|
sweetbomber joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:06 |
RealBadAngel |
not force |
| 20:06 |
RealBadAngel |
freedom of choice is the key |
| 20:07 |
PilzAdam |
a game should give the player some things with limitation, not everything |
| 20:07 |
RealBadAngel |
PA, we are developin a game that from definition shall bring player no limitations |
| 20:08 |
PilzAdam |
limitation is the key why MC is so popular; the player is limited to cubes and has to build with it |
| 20:08 |
RealBadAngel |
but can build ANYTHING |
| 20:08 |
celeron55 |
people don't get happy by getting everything in unlimited fashion |
| 20:08 |
celeron55 |
nowhere |
| 20:08 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, no, players cant build circles |
| 20:08 |
celeron55 |
not in real life, not in art, not in games |
| 20:09 |
RealBadAngel |
mc like and thus mt are SO GOOD because its a new gender |
| 20:09 |
RealBadAngel |
its not a game anylonger |
| 20:09 |
RealBadAngel |
its a world that let you create |
| 20:10 |
RealBadAngel |
without predefined targets, goals or whatever |
| 20:10 |
celeron55 |
one can think it like that; but it doesn't get me interested at all so you need to find somebody else to make it |
| 20:10 |
celeron55 |
that's the problem |
| 20:10 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, i dont have to look |
| 20:10 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, I dont see Minetest like this |
| 20:11 |
RealBadAngel |
it already is so |
| 20:11 |
PilzAdam |
if it would be like this then we could stop developing it now :-) |
| 20:11 |
RealBadAngel |
hehe true |
| 20:11 |
RealBadAngel |
its close to it then :) |
| 20:12 |
PilzAdam |
what you mean is is that it has the goal to be like this |
| 20:13 |
PilzAdam |
but this is not a good goal |
| 20:13 |
PilzAdam |
and it wouldnt make a good game |
| 20:13 |
RealBadAngel |
hold on |
| 20:13 |
RealBadAngel |
we do have games system |
| 20:13 |
celeron55 |
so RBA's goal really is to just dump anything and whatever somebody cares to create into it? |
| 20:13 |
RealBadAngel |
no no |
| 20:14 |
RealBadAngel |
i havent said so |
| 20:14 |
celeron55 |
it could end up being something interesting, but for sure it'd be quite large |
| 20:14 |
celeron55 |
we might need to have two distributions, one for that and one for something else |
| 20:14 |
Jordach |
actually two games should be nice: one thats worked on by say, the forum community |
| 20:14 |
Jordach |
and one by the core devs |
| 20:15 |
RealBadAngel |
we tried already with common and minetest_game, partially crossing each other |
| 20:15 |
PilzAdam |
"the forum community" isnt on person and doesnt have one goal |
| 20:15 |
RealBadAngel |
but what about two DIFFERENT games? |
| 20:16 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: we already have such ones; they fare fairly well |
| 20:16 |
celeron55 |
they're just not officially distributed |
| 20:16 |
RealBadAngel |
may start at one point, but could go different ways |
| 20:16 |
RealBadAngel |
so maybe lets start to do so? |
| 20:16 |
RealBadAngel |
we wont be arguing then |
| 20:16 |
celeron55 |
how should it be done |
| 20:17 |
RealBadAngel |
under minetest, lets develop more games just |
| 20:17 |
celeron55 |
put everything in one package for windows? how about linux distros? how do we make sure they package the relevant ones |
| 20:17 |
kahrl |
celeron55: that's where sapier new main menu comes in, I'd say |
| 20:17 |
kahrl |
sapier's* |
| 20:17 |
celeron55 |
does it allow downloading games from the menu in the future? |
| 20:18 |
kahrl |
not sure if that is planned but I'm sure it could be done |
| 20:18 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam can take care of current minetest_game |
| 20:18 |
kahrl |
lets say if you start the game and it finds only the minimal game, it asks you to choose one of several games and it downloads it automatically |
| 20:18 |
RealBadAngel |
i can take care of some technic one |
| 20:19 |
celeron55 |
i think it would be awesome if we wouldn't need to care about distributing anything else on the website to users and distros than the engine, and it would just download stuff from some repository |
| 20:19 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc. engine is separate thingy |
| 20:20 |
RealBadAngel |
but it should allow to browse aviable content |
| 20:20 |
celeron55 |
this is in line with the "spirit of 0.4", which is really what we tend to be following still, albeit maybe a bit too vaguely |
| 20:21 |
celeron55 |
and it's confusing to think about because it's really not about a game, but about an underlying system |
| 20:22 |
celeron55 |
also, this is the kind of programmer porn that one needs to be very careful about; it can sound good even if it really doesn't make any sense from the standpoint of the end result |
| 20:23 |
RealBadAngel |
imho engine shall be developed in manner to allow everything, without goals or limitations |
| 20:24 |
RealBadAngel |
games on the other hand, can be everything |
| 20:24 |
kahrl |
of course it will continue to allow replacing the game, the question is how that capability will be represented |
| 20:24 |
celeron55 |
allowing everything means requiring infinite resources |
| 20:24 |
celeron55 |
which is unallowable |
| 20:25 |
celeron55 |
so we are going to end up with issues trying to figure out what to put in the engine and what not |
| 20:25 |
RealBadAngel |
well, slight limitations then :) |
| 20:26 |
RealBadAngel |
into engine shall go tools |
| 20:27 |
RealBadAngel |
if i. or some1, finds out that for mod to work good, needs something from the engine |
| 20:27 |
RealBadAngel |
thats a good reason to update engine |
| 20:27 |
RealBadAngel |
if it can be done without modyfing engine, it means engine works ok |
| 20:28 |
RealBadAngel |
an example: hardcoded crafting ways |
| 20:28 |
celeron55 |
okay so you want to make millimeter-scale microblocks with volumetric lighting and exact physics |
| 20:29 |
celeron55 |
you know, we have to have a rule that makes that an immediate "nope" |
| 20:29 |
RealBadAngel |
thats a slight limitation i talked before ;) |
| 20:29 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc we wont allow unrealistic things |
| 20:30 |
celeron55 |
but seriously, the engine development goals must be written down |
| 20:30 |
RealBadAngel |
definitely |
| 20:32 |
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| 20:32 |
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Jordach_ joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:32 |
RealBadAngel |
and seriously too, can i have a copy of minetest_game in minetest project space to take care of, and being different than source? |
| 20:32 |
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| 20:33 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, you were timed out? |
| 20:33 |
celeron55_ |
i feel i need to begin makin releases again because nobody else seems to understand they need to be made at a reasonably small interval |
| 20:34 |
celeron55_ |
+g |
| 20:34 |
RealBadAngel |
have you seen my question celeron55 ? |
| 20:34 |
celeron55_ |
0.4.6 is ridiculously old considering how bad it is |
| 20:34 |
celeron55_ |
no |
| 20:34 |
RealBadAngel |
and seriously too, can i have a copy of minetest_game in minetest project space to take care of, and being different than source? |
| 20:35 |
RealBadAngel |
^^ above |
| 20:35 |
celeron55_ |
umm wat? |
| 20:35 |
RealBadAngel |
i would like to run a different game |
| 20:35 |
kahrl |
I'm in favor of releasing 0.4.7 soonish |
| 20:35 |
celeron55_ |
the question does not make any sense |
| 20:35 |
celeron55_ |
kahrl: i'm in favor of releasing 0.4.7 two months ago |
| 20:36 |
celeron55_ |
this is ridiculous |
| 20:36 |
RealBadAngel |
it does imho |
| 20:36 |
RealBadAngel |
me and pa, and many have different ideas |
| 20:37 |
kahrl |
well I think a problem was that nobody knew whether the scriptapi move was going to be merged before or after the release |
| 20:37 |
kahrl |
but that is done now |
| 20:37 |
hmmmm |
well now that it's done, we don't need to worry |
| 20:37 |
RealBadAngel |
im not talkin bout common etc like we tried before |
| 20:37 |
hmmmm |
perhaps right here is a good point to release 0.4.7 |
| 20:37 |
RealBadAngel |
agree |
| 20:37 |
hmmmm |
nothing's been committed for about 5 days, right? |
| 20:37 |
hmmmm |
there, that's almost a week of feature freeze |
| 20:37 |
kahrl |
there are some pull requests on github that fix things broken by the scriptapi move |
| 20:38 |
hmmmm |
i was afraid of that |
| 20:38 |
RealBadAngel |
i have the code ready to pull |
| 20:38 |
RealBadAngel |
but i think it can wait for next release |
| 20:38 |
RealBadAngel |
i mean bumpmapping |
| 20:38 |
celeron55_ |
okay, only fixes allowed then; throw in all the fixes and that's 0.4.7 then |
| 20:39 |
hmmmm |
right |
| 20:39 |
kahrl |
I'd have liked to have the new main menu in but it's much too unstable at the moment |
| 20:39 |
hmmmm |
i need to stop screwing around and finish what i was working on so i can do more minetest |
| 20:39 |
celeron55_ |
kahrl: that's a concern that should not exist |
| 20:39 |
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proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:39 |
RealBadAngel |
better merge it into indev and try it for a few weeks |
| 20:39 |
celeron55_ |
kahrl: releases should be common enough for nobody to think like that |
| 20:40 |
kahrl |
well the commit I tried this morning just crashed on startup |
| 20:40 |
hmmmm |
right, these are *patch* version levels we're releasing, not minor versions or anything |
| 20:40 |
hmmmm |
so it's settled |
| 20:40 |
hmmmm |
in 2 days, we'll mark it as 0.4.7 and release it |
| 20:40 |
RealBadAngel |
i thought bumpmapping code was ready, then after i made it public i rewrote it a few times thx to reports |
| 20:40 |
celeron55_ |
seriously, even having one 0.4.x per week won't be even close to too often |
| 20:41 |
kahrl |
celeron55_: I think that's what daily builds are for |
| 20:41 |
hmmmm |
celeron wants a rolling release |
| 20:41 |
hmmmm |
i don't though |
| 20:41 |
celeron55_ |
it depends on the amount of features put in of course |
| 20:41 |
celeron55_ |
and fixes |
| 20:41 |
RealBadAngel |
hmmmm, something in the middle i think |
| 20:41 |
RealBadAngel |
we do have too many changes onboard already |
| 20:41 |
hmmmm |
i also don't want to start pumping out new versions on a set date, that's ridiculous |
| 20:42 |
kahrl |
I like having at least a week of feature freeze for most releases |
| 20:42 |
hmmmm |
by the way, by "freeze" i mean we don't commit anything, but that's not what most other projects do |
| 20:42 |
RealBadAngel |
like hmmm noticed 5 days are frozen already |
| 20:43 |
RealBadAngel |
lets add weekend to it just |
| 20:43 |
hmmmm |
they'd make a stable branch at that point when they think it's good |
| 20:43 |
hmmmm |
the reason why we stop all activity is because honestly, nobody focuses on anything except upstream |
| 20:43 |
celeron55_ |
well this is quite a small project really |
| 20:44 |
kahrl |
a feature freeze is pointless if bug fixes can't be committed |
| 20:44 |
celeron55_ |
it doesn't make much sense to wiggle with release candidate branches and backporting of stuff |
| 20:44 |
kahrl |
or am I misunderstanding completely? |
| 20:44 |
hmmmm |
erm |
| 20:44 |
hmmmm |
you're misunderstanding, that's called a code freeze |
| 20:45 |
hmmmm |
when i mean don't commit anything, i meant to say no commiting new features |
| 20:45 |
RealBadAngel |
brb |
| 20:45 |
hmmmm |
s/mean/say/ |
| 20:46 |
kahrl |
ah ok I agree with that then |
| 20:46 |
hmmmm |
make is such a pile of crap. |
| 20:46 |
hmmmm |
ugh. |
| 20:46 |
celeron55_ |
why do you think so |
| 20:47 |
celeron55_ |
i think make is pretty good, altough making certain special things with it tends to be unintuitive |
| 20:47 |
hmmmm |
if the whole "tabs and spaces have different meaning" thing isn't enough of a problem, then it's the amount of crypticness |
| 20:47 |
hmmmm |
the amount of variance between BSD and GNU make |
| 20:47 |
hmmmm |
everything is unintuitive |
| 20:47 |
celeron55_ |
oh well that BSD/GNU thing might be a problem |
| 20:48 |
celeron55_ |
i've never even tried to use BSD make |
| 20:48 |
hmmmm |
ugh, it's like perl at some points |
| 20:48 |
hmmmm |
SRCS = {$@%##SRCS:}$@#?/*"} |
| 20:48 |
kahrl |
why not use cmake or something like that? I mean it's still cryptic but at least has the same syntax everywhere |
| 20:48 |
hmmmm |
see, I've been considering that |
| 20:49 |
hmmmm |
adopting cmake for my own projects |
| 20:49 |
celeron55_ |
in smaller projects i tend to use gnu make everywhere |
| 20:49 |
hmmmm |
i'd have to use something like autotools for projects that are likely to be cross-compiled onto some mobile device though |
| 20:49 |
celeron55_ |
(which is, on linux and windows) |
| 20:50 |
hmmmm |
oh yeah, there's also NMAKE :/ |
| 20:50 |
celeron55_ |
cross-compiles are a pain for sure; cmake can sometimes be roughly equal to magic in such cases |
| 20:50 |
kahrl |
mingw works well for small projects so no need to mess with nmake |
| 20:50 |
celeron55_ |
yes i use mingw |
| 20:50 |
hmmmm |
well nmake is pretty useless aside from where it's necessary (drivers) |
| 20:51 |
hmmmm |
it's just funny how there's yet another flavor of make |
| 20:52 |
celeron55_ |
everyone thinks they're more important than others and that's where it ends up |
| 20:52 |
celeron55_ |
it happens in everythin |
| 20:52 |
celeron55_ |
+g |
| 20:53 |
celeron55_ |
then everyone just hates each other 8) |
| 20:53 |
kahrl |
NIH syndrome, or embrace, extend and extinguish |
| 20:53 |
Exio |
rewrite minetest hmmmm |
| 20:54 |
hmmmm |
i say we nuke it and start all over. |
| 20:54 |
hmmmm |
in java. |
| 20:54 |
Exio |
or better, C#! |
| 20:54 |
kahrl |
whitespace. you said you like significant tabs |
| 20:54 |
celeron55_ |
let's make it look like skyrim and be a p2p MMO |
| 20:55 |
hmmmm |
it'll be an AAA game and targeted at the "hardcore gaming" crowd, get some endorsements from mtn dew, razer, and have a soundtrack by Skrillez |
| 20:55 |
hmmmm |
s/skrillez/skrillex/ |
| 20:56 |
celeron55_ |
by the way, at this last minute, i declare the troll language of the day to be X++ |
| 20:56 |
celeron55_ |
it's made by microsoft and it's like C#, except not exactly |
| 20:56 |
celeron55_ |
8D |
| 20:57 |
celeron55_ |
(it's 23:57 here now) |
| 20:57 |
Exio |
utc+? |
| 20:57 |
Exio |
1, 2? |
| 20:57 |
celeron55_ |
2+DST |
| 20:57 |
hmmmm |
probably utc+5? |
| 20:58 |
celeron55_ |
=3 |
| 20:58 |
celeron55_ |
"X++ is part of the MorphX development platform that you use to construct accounting and business management systems" |
| 20:58 |
hmmmm |
i remember time zones based off of est |
| 20:58 |
celeron55_ |
this probably means it's prefect for gamedev |
| 20:58 |
kahrl |
we need timezones in minetest |
| 20:58 |
RealBadAngel |
back |
| 20:58 |
Anchakor |
hi all :) |
| 20:58 |
kahrl |
anyone who uses /time would have to remember them. It would be totally realistic and awesome! |
| 20:59 |
Anchakor |
kahrl found his way back? nice |
| 20:59 |
RealBadAngel |
kahrl: google for fiatlux.py |
| 20:59 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:59 |
celeron55_ |
yes and how about pooping |
| 20:59 |
RealBadAngel |
i ported it into engine |
| 21:00 |
kahrl |
celeron55_: well irrlicht doesn't support olfactory devices yet so it wouldn't be the full experience |
| 21:00 |
hmmmm |
but, seriously |
| 21:01 |
celeron55_ |
kahrl: maybe it could be shown two times as big on the screen to compensate |
| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
i'd say the reason why I hate something cryptic like make but I love C at the same time is because make is merely a means to an end, you don't really care to spend too much time with make |
| 21:01 |
celeron55_ |
are you saying C is some kind of a god |
| 21:01 |
Anchakor |
I see MT got relicensed under LGPL, nice |
| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
C is amazing |
| 21:01 |
hmmmm |
C is the light and the truth |
| 21:02 |
Anchakor |
though it isn't library |
| 21:02 |
celeron55_ |
by the way, has someone read about rust here? to me it seems quite awesome as long as the infrastructure around it gets more mature: http://www.rust-lang.org/ |
| 21:02 |
celeron55_ |
it fixes practically all of the issues i know of C and C++ |
| 21:02 |
hmmmm |
i still never figured out why LGPL was chosen |
| 21:02 |
celeron55_ |
...except compile time |
| 21:03 |
celeron55_ |
(partly) |
| 21:03 |
celeron55_ |
(compared to golang) |
| 21:04 |
Anchakor |
hmmmm: I suggested MPL: http://c55.me/minetest2/wiki/doku.php?id=dev:license_change |
| 21:04 |
RealBadAngel |
so what about me running second game (with technical twist) ? |
| 21:05 |
RealBadAngel |
i wont yell at PA and would expect the same from him ;) |
| 21:06 |
RealBadAngel |
we are thinkin in totally different manners, so the games will be different |
| 21:07 |
RealBadAngel |
you all know that some of us are older |
| 21:07 |
kahrl |
RealBadAngel: why does it have to be under github.com/minetest/? |
| 21:07 |
celeron55_ |
RealBadAngel: there's the issue there that modders will hate you for making stuff that makes it impossible to make some mods compatible with both it and minetest_game |
| 21:08 |
celeron55_ |
but i guess haters can hate |
| 21:08 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc they will |
| 21:08 |
RealBadAngel |
its their job to do so |
| 21:08 |
RealBadAngel |
but look at the current state |
| 21:09 |
RealBadAngel |
im the developer with ideas i would like to force |
| 21:09 |
RealBadAngel |
but PA says no |
| 21:09 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:09 |
RealBadAngel |
gimme just another room |
| 21:09 |
RealBadAngel |
you know im skilled enough |
| 21:10 |
celeron55_ |
i don't see any reason for it to be under minetest |
| 21:10 |
RealBadAngel |
i can give you some |
| 21:10 |
RealBadAngel |
redstone - mesecons |
| 21:10 |
RealBadAngel |
enough? |
| 21:10 |
celeron55_ |
wtf? |
| 21:11 |
RealBadAngel |
core of minecraft success |
| 21:11 |
kahrl |
people will ask why it is under minetest and some already popular games like minitest and realtest not |
| 21:11 |
celeron55_ |
the only reason to put things under github.com/minetest is if they are intended to be developed by the core team |
| 21:12 |
celeron55_ |
if not, then there is no reason to and they won't be |
| 21:12 |
RealBadAngel |
im a dev, but cant push to mintetest_game |
| 21:13 |
RealBadAngel |
im representing older part of the community |
| 21:13 |
RealBadAngel |
im 40 yrs old |
| 21:13 |
Anchakor |
ageism! |
| 21:13 |
RealBadAngel |
i like other things than most of you |
| 21:14 |
RealBadAngel |
lol, just the truth |
| 21:14 |
RealBadAngel |
thats why we have those stupid argues from time to time |
| 21:15 |
RealBadAngel |
vanessa, mauvebic, me, and some others who left alredy |
| 21:15 |
RealBadAngel |
we need our space |
| 21:15 |
kahrl |
I don't think there would be no arguments if we only allowed people of age 25 to talk on IRC ;) |
| 21:15 |
RealBadAngel |
hahaha |
| 21:15 |
RealBadAngel |
:P |
| 21:16 |
iqualfragile |
actualy i think that an agelimit at about 14 would be a good idea |
| 21:16 |
hmmmm |
[05:15 PM] <kahrl> I don't think there would be no arguments if we only allowed people of age 25 to talk on IRC ;) |
| 21:16 |
hmmmm |
there wouldn't be much talking at all - what is the probability that there are two people exactly 25 years old on the same irc channel at the same time? |
| 21:16 |
kahrl |
good point :) |
| 21:16 |
RealBadAngel |
i cant see leaving messages |
| 21:17 |
RealBadAngel |
all 25's here? |
| 21:17 |
hmmmm |
i'm 21 |
| 21:18 |
RealBadAngel |
so, again, whats wrong in TWO different games... |
| 21:18 |
* kahrl |
is of the wrong age but will continue to talk until hit by the banhammer |
| 21:20 |
RealBadAngel |
also run by TWO different groups of ppl |
| 21:20 |
RealBadAngel |
i mention it because last attempt was run by the very same person |
| 21:20 |
kahrl |
seeing as PilzAdam is pretty much the only one committing to minetest_game right now |
| 21:20 |
RealBadAngel |
why? |
| 21:20 |
kahrl |
I don't think there would be much interest in running a second game by the other devs |
| 21:21 |
RealBadAngel |
because we all know our commits will be rejected |
| 21:21 |
RealBadAngel |
simple fuckin flower is the evidence |
| 21:21 |
kahrl |
so I'd guess you'd be the only one who commits so you can put the repository under your own github account as well |
| 21:22 |
RealBadAngel |
no |
| 21:22 |
RealBadAngel |
youre completely wrong |
| 21:22 |
RealBadAngel |
there are lots of ppl that would like to commit |
| 21:22 |
RealBadAngel |
but they know it makes no sense |
| 21:22 |
celeron55_ |
so are those people in this list? https://github.com/minetest?tab=members |
| 21:23 |
RealBadAngel |
many of them left already |
| 21:23 |
celeron55_ |
what's your point then? |
| 21:23 |
celeron55_ |
you can cry all you want, but it won't make any difference |
| 21:23 |
kahrl |
you can give other people push access to your github repos as well |
| 21:24 |
RealBadAngel |
i could |
| 21:24 |
RealBadAngel |
but thats not the point |
| 21:25 |
|
smoke_fumus joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:25 |
|
jin_xi joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:25 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55_, you would call VanessaE an outsider? mauvebic? cornernote? |
| 21:25 |
Anchakor |
what is wrong with running your own repo? |
| 21:25 |
celeron55_ |
no? what the fuck man? |
| 21:26 |
Kray |
wtf :D |
| 21:26 |
RealBadAngel |
i just named folks of the similar age |
| 21:26 |
Kray |
all developers having push access to the same repo pretty badly cripples the idea of git |
| 21:26 |
hmmmm |
mauvebic is old? |
| 21:26 |
RealBadAngel |
and notice we all have different ideas than 20's |
| 21:27 |
RealBadAngel |
dont call us old :P |
| 21:27 |
RealBadAngel |
middle age :P |
| 21:28 |
RealBadAngel |
i just want a space for us |
| 21:28 |
RealBadAngel |
not somwhere outside |
| 21:29 |
celeron55_ |
hint: you can make organizations on github by yourself too |
| 21:29 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:29 |
RealBadAngel |
it is not funny at all celeron |
| 21:30 |
celeron55_ |
if you want to have a clear team to work on your game, that's an obvious solution |
| 21:30 |
RealBadAngel |
we all are workin on the very same game |
| 21:30 |
celeron55_ |
also, i'm not trying to be funny at all |
| 21:30 |
hmmmm |
i think yall are taking this way too seriously |
| 21:30 |
RealBadAngel |
im trying to find a solution for us all |
| 21:31 |
hmmmm |
i haven't really been listening closely, but the problem is that you want to have your own minetest game? |
| 21:31 |
hmmmm |
and you want it to be an official one |
| 21:31 |
RealBadAngel |
you think its funny to code something and knew in advance that PA will reject it? |
| 21:31 |
hmmmm |
hmmmm |
| 21:32 |
hmmmm |
PA has his own ideas of how minetest_game ought to be, i'll admit |
| 21:32 |
RealBadAngel |
and it is not only my opinion |
| 21:32 |
hmmmm |
some of the changes are things that i wouldn't do myself |
| 21:32 |
Anchakor |
you want your own MT game, but still be distributed with MT and in its git repo? |
| 21:32 |
RealBadAngel |
many folks left the community because of him and his attitude |
| 21:32 |
celeron55_ |
minetest's git repo has nothing to with distributing minetest |
| 21:32 |
hmmmm |
that is true |
| 21:33 |
RealBadAngel |
engine is the engine |
| 21:33 |
RealBadAngel |
i say allow multiple official games |
| 21:33 |
jin_xi |
idk, but i find the whole idea of a 'default game' quite unnecessary. it obviously leads to much discussion, friction and frustration |
| 21:33 |
celeron55_ |
if somebody didn't notice, this turned into some ridiculous drama just after there was a solution to everything, once RBA somehow forgot it |
| 21:33 |
celeron55_ |
jin_xi: i do see it, yes |
| 21:34 |
hmmmm |
most of this has to do with the idea that the engine is necessarily paired to some certain game by default (well, that game is actually minimal, but whatever) |
| 21:34 |
iqualfragile |
jin_xi: a default game is important to have for new players |
| 21:34 |
celeron55_ |
jin_xi: but we have no solid means of distributing games for the engine without putting them in by default, so this is really an issue |
| 21:34 |
iqualfragile |
as a starting point |
| 21:34 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55_, i havent forgot anythin |
| 21:35 |
hmmmm |
if we went with my idea of advertising minetest as its own game and then saying "oh, yeah, you play this using the minetest voxel engine, which you can get here" that might help |
| 21:35 |
RealBadAngel |
even game was splitted into parts before |
| 21:35 |
celeron55_ |
so how about focusing all efforts on making the engine able to pull games from some central repo (for newbies) and just simply not distribute it ever anymore with any preinstalled game? |
| 21:35 |
jin_xi |
i think stuff like minitest and such should be promoted and only have something like 'made with minetest' links on their sites. |
| 21:35 |
iqualfragile |
about the direction of minetest_game: i have allready said that but what about publishing an document which clearly states which aims minetest_games wants to reach |
| 21:35 |
kahrl |
not the renaming discussion again :) |
| 21:35 |
kahrl |
it went nowhere |
| 21:35 |
hmmmm |
celeron, yeah, that's something that most people would like |
| 21:35 |
RealBadAngel |
there was only one person who decided what can be merged |
| 21:35 |
iqualfragile |
i think that would remove a lot of the friction |
| 21:35 |
RealBadAngel |
and that was the problem |
| 21:35 |
celeron55_ |
if not that way, then the other way is what jin_xi now said |
| 21:35 |
celeron55_ |
the "minetest as library" way |
| 21:36 |
hmmmm |
what if minetest_game had a different community as minetest |
| 21:36 |
celeron55_ |
iqualfragile: who will do it? everyone knows it would help, but there is no authority on it |
| 21:36 |
kahrl |
celeron55_: the repo thing sounds like a good goal for 0.4.8 |
| 21:36 |
iqualfragile |
says celeron55_… |
| 21:36 |
RealBadAngel |
tip: rename it to pilzadams_game |
| 21:36 |
hmmmm |
i do agree though, only one person with with their territory marked over minetest_game isn't very good |
| 21:37 |
hmmmm |
we all have our own territory |
| 21:37 |
celeron55_ |
iqualfragile: i don't have any idea what i want from it |
| 21:37 |
iqualfragile |
it seems like PA has |
| 21:37 |
iqualfragile |
what about forcing him to publish such an document |
| 21:37 |
hmmmm |
like mine for example are the mapgens, biome manager, emerge manager, and what not |
| 21:37 |
iqualfragile |
it would be a lot easier to discuss about it then |
| 21:37 |
hmmmm |
but changes to it aren't mostly subjective and user visible |
| 21:37 |
hmmmm |
that's where the problem is |
| 21:37 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: write down your plans of minetest_game for the next 2 years and publish it |
| 21:38 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam has taken minetest_game, and if somebody cant see it is either blind or stupid |
| 21:38 |
hmmmm |
the actual problem is how people decide what becomes what in minetest_game |
| 21:38 |
celeron55_ |
PilzAdam: how does that sound like? 8) |
| 21:38 |
kahrl |
I wonder what my territory is |
| 21:38 |
iqualfragile |
about the central repository for games: i could add that into mmdb quite easily |
| 21:38 |
hmmmm |
i feel like a dog pissing on source files, haha :( |
| 21:38 |
iqualfragile |
but i would rather wait and see how the modmanaging part works out |
| 21:38 |
celeron55_ |
i see kahrl's mission as making minetest 0.4 actually happen somehow like it was originally planned as |
| 21:38 |
hmmmm |
err, skunk rather |
| 21:38 |
* RealBadAngel |
usually wanders in mapblock_mesh.cpp |
| 21:38 |
iqualfragile |
celeron55_: PilzAdam is afk |
| 21:39 |
hmmmm |
so there's what we do |
| 21:39 |
Anchakor |
seems like a good idea to not have any official minetest game (except minimal) and distribute with like 5 most popular MT games |
| 21:40 |
Anchakor |
reduces community friction |
| 21:40 |
hmmmm |
either clearly define some democratic way of getting things in minetest_game, OR we add more separation between engine and game |
| 21:40 |
celeron55_ |
Anchakor: that's what i am more and more leaning towards |
| 21:40 |
iqualfragile |
i am clearly agains havin none or multiple default games |
| 21:40 |
celeron55_ |
Anchakor: or alternatively distribute it with nothing and let the game/mod manager do it |
| 21:40 |
iqualfragile |
as it will lead to a lot of confusion for newbs |
| 21:40 |
RealBadAngel |
which is bad |
| 21:40 |
hmmmm |
iqualfragile, it's better to have multiple rather than none |
| 21:41 |
celeron55_ |
the only thing that is newbiew-friendly is "minetest as library" |
| 21:41 |
celeron55_ |
but it's not very 0.4y |
| 21:41 |
RealBadAngel |
a few maintained and official games are better |
| 21:41 |
hmmmm |
or at least a "you don't have to read anything" kind of way to set it up if it comes with none |
| 21:41 |
iqualfragile |
this is allways an issue in open-source projects: some people are unhappy with an decision and say: make it an option |
| 21:41 |
Anchakor |
iqualfragile: it's kinda like the good old Half-Life mods, if there is a clear way how to launch one, there is no problem |
| 21:41 |
iqualfragile |
and in the end there are 119919 options and nobody has any idea whats happening anymore |
| 21:42 |
RealBadAngel |
notice you gonna get two solid (and opposite) maintainers |
| 21:42 |
RealBadAngel |
me and Pa |
| 21:42 |
Anchakor |
iqualfragile: you are using a strawman argument |
| 21:42 |
iqualfragile |
i am? |
| 21:42 |
kahrl |
iqualfragile: that's why I'm in favor of a clear, unconfusing screen that shows up when you first run the client and lets you choose a game to download |
| 21:42 |
hmmmm |
we can put CURL to better use this way |
| 21:42 |
iqualfragile |
i would rather distribute one game with minetest |
| 21:43 |
iqualfragile |
one and only one |
| 21:43 |
Anchakor |
why? |
| 21:43 |
iqualfragile |
there should be a clear definition of that games goals |
| 21:43 |
RealBadAngel |
sandbox |
| 21:43 |
RealBadAngel |
we cant |
| 21:43 |
iqualfragile |
and then people should have an easy to use and working mechanism of adding new gamemodes |
| 21:43 |
celeron55_ |
iqualfragile: your thing can only happen if there is a leader with a clear plan |
| 21:43 |
celeron55_ |
i am not willing to work as such for MT anymore |
| 21:43 |
celeron55_ |
it's too painful |
| 21:44 |
iqualfragile |
no need for a single leader |
| 21:44 |
celeron55_ |
then you're responsible for figuring out how to do it |
| 21:44 |
iqualfragile |
it would be enought if people would try communicating more |
| 21:44 |
celeron55_ |
no it's not |
| 21:44 |
RealBadAngel |
thats a price and valor of community project |
| 21:44 |
celeron55_ |
people have so different goals it doesn't work |
| 21:45 |
kahrl |
I would love to see the dungeon crawler game though :) |
| 21:45 |
iqualfragile |
they do? im not shure about that, i just think that people are not communictating well and that increases the percived delta |
| 21:45 |
Anchakor |
iqualfragile: you single game is minetest_minimal, happy? :) |
| 21:45 |
RealBadAngel |
kahrl, why not? |
| 21:45 |
celeron55_ |
iqualfragile: if you read the full discussion today, you can see it clearly between RBA and PilzAdam |
| 21:45 |
jin_xi |
i thought about doing a nethack/mt mashup but have not yet implemented anything... |
| 21:45 |
celeron55_ |
iqualfragile: their plans for the game are like 90 degrees apart |
| 21:46 |
iqualfragile |
Anchakor: no, the single game needs to be playable, its for new players of minetest |
| 21:46 |
RealBadAngel |
PA runs something similar to mc, i would like to run enhanced one, with technical twist |
| 21:46 |
RealBadAngel |
you can go dungeons |
| 21:46 |
iqualfragile |
stop |
| 21:46 |
iqualfragile |
write that down into an easy accessible document, please |
| 21:47 |
iqualfragile |
perhaps a wiki page |
| 21:47 |
iqualfragile |
inclue wich subsystems you would want to add |
| 21:47 |
iqualfragile |
i am shure that we will find some kind of acceptable solution |
| 21:47 |
iqualfragile |
*sure |
| 21:47 |
RealBadAngel |
in fact theres nothing to do |
| 21:47 |
RealBadAngel |
just make new folder |
| 21:48 |
RealBadAngel |
and make real differnt games with time |
| 21:48 |
iqualfragile |
creating a folder and throwing in some mods is not how you make a gamemode |
| 21:48 |
RealBadAngel |
time |
| 21:48 |
Anchakor |
iqualfragile: I guess you are the naive kind of a guy who thinks people can always work together only if they tried harder to understand each other |
| 21:48 |
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| 21:48 |
iqualfragile |
a gamemode needs to be more then just its mods, in my oppinion at least |
| 21:49 |
RealBadAngel |
of course |
| 21:49 |
RealBadAngel |
but time will effect with changes |
| 21:49 |
RealBadAngel |
that one would accept and other reject |
| 21:49 |
RealBadAngel |
sum of this will produce differnt game |
| 21:50 |
Anchakor |
but you can't work together on going different directions... minetest engine allows many game modes, trying to be impartial to the game projects is good |
| 21:50 |
iqualfragile |
well, then lets define some criteria for a good game |
| 21:50 |
jin_xi |
huh. terminology is not helping us here. cant mod a non existing games... so we should call them components maybe... or plugins even lol. and dont get me started on gamemode, specially in the context of making them more different from each other |
| 21:50 |
RealBadAngel |
we will need the same engine still |
| 21:51 |
RealBadAngel |
but will differ in usage of it |
| 21:51 |
kahrl |
sapier: I added some test cases for the new path functions (only tested in linux so far). Here's all my changes as a diff: https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5688237 |
| 21:51 |
iqualfragile |
sapier: whats the status of the modmanager? |
| 21:51 |
RealBadAngel |
im using many parts of code wrote by PilzAdam |
| 21:51 |
kahrl |
the diff also has the new isMinetestPath etc. |
| 21:52 |
RealBadAngel |
shit we are all using Minetest :) |
| 21:52 |
Anchakor |
iqualfragile: if at start you are preseted with 5 game mode choices in order of the community popularity vote, that gives new players a good idea what is the "main" MT game without it being set in stone and undemocratic |
| 21:52 |
sapier |
<< reading backlock .... lots of comments since I left |
| 21:52 |
Anchakor |
presented* |
| 21:52 |
sapier |
iqualfragile local mode is completed |
| 21:52 |
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| 21:52 |
sapier |
download only has a button :-) |
| 21:53 |
iqualfragile |
when do you estimate that part will be finished? |
| 21:53 |
celeron55_ |
i really would want to put good game mode developers at the front line of development, everything else just following their demands |
| 21:54 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:54 |
celeron55_ |
if anyone can adjust their work to work like that, please do |
| 21:54 |
celeron55_ |
it'll please everyone in the long run |
| 21:54 |
RealBadAngel |
we can get our niches, sure |
| 21:55 |
kahrl |
sapier: in case it got obscured by the thousands of comments it got decided to make a feature freeze and release 0.4.7 after this weekend |
| 21:55 |
celeron55_ |
the problem is, who is good; nobody here really has any merits |
| 21:55 |
celeron55_ |
someone like the dwarves developer could be counted as such |
| 21:55 |
sapier |
Jordach NOT EVERYONE will be happy with simplemobs ... imho their stupid and buggy ;-P |
| 21:57 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55_, what i proposed was not a total anarchy in creating many default games. but propably two of them to let OLDER CODERS to code |
| 21:57 |
kahrl |
so yeah I guess I'll go through the pull requests and check those that claim to be bugfixes |
| 21:57 |
celeron55_ |
RealBadAngel: stop that already; nobody is interested |
| 21:57 |
kahrl |
also the bug reports |
| 21:58 |
RealBadAngel |
nobody is interested? |
| 21:58 |
proller |
PilzAdam, who dislike finite_liquid except you? |
| 21:58 |
iqualfragile |
kahrl: good idea |
| 21:58 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/237 |
| 21:58 |
celeron55_ |
proller: people dislike it because it doesn't work too well and noobs enable it without knowing |
| 21:58 |
iqualfragile |
i would apreciate it if devs would care more about the pull requests |
| 21:59 |
kahrl |
#237 seems badly implemented according to PA's comment so I will leave it |
| 21:59 |
iqualfragile |
proller: i dislike finite liquids, it does not work for me |
| 22:00 |
kahrl |
also needs a huge rebase probably |
| 22:00 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/296 bug fix for huge map and add-on of -xmin -xmax -zmin -zmax param (block unit (x 16 cubes)) |
| 22:00 |
RealBadAngel |
well, if nobody is interested then :P |
| 22:01 |
iqualfragile |
kahrl: https://github.com/cyisfor/minetest/commit/45afcec615c35e2bacf3abc7457c791281d9342b#L0R1281 |
| 22:01 |
sapier |
I guess yesterday silent day is completely fixed now :-) |
| 22:01 |
proller |
iqualfragile, does not work what? |
| 22:01 |
sapier |
thx kahrl I found it :-) |
| 22:01 |
iqualfragile |
on my computer |
| 22:02 |
sapier |
proller I don't dislike finite liquid but I think it's far from finished too |
| 22:03 |
sapier |
kahrl so formspec mainmenu is for 0.4.8? I guess this gives oportunity to integrate moddb too? |
| 22:03 |
kahrl |
iqualfragile: well I haven't seen the bug it claims to fix, the pause menu does not consume more CPU time than the normal game |
| 22:04 |
kahrl |
sapier: yep |
| 22:04 |
iqualfragile |
kahrl: its just formulated badly |
| 22:04 |
sapier |
still I'd prefere integration as soon as possible once 0.4.7 is released to find the bugs ... I guess scriptapi separation will have some errors after 0.4.7 release due to it's late merge |
| 22:04 |
iqualfragile |
it would just be smarter to reduce the fps when you are looking at an menue anyways |
| 22:05 |
sapier |
did I just miss result of release strategy or wasn't there any ? |
| 22:05 |
RealBadAngel |
it will stay the same |
| 22:05 |
kahrl |
iqualfragile: guess it makes sense on old hardware though just calling device->sleep(const) isn't the way to do it |
| 22:06 |
RealBadAngel |
what pa likes or not |
| 22:06 |
kahrl |
anyway this is not a critical fix so I'll leave for after 0.4.7 |
| 22:06 |
RealBadAngel |
with c55 hidin behind pa's back |
| 22:07 |
sapier |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/741 needs to be merged for 0.4.7 |
| 22:08 |
kahrl |
sapier: it does |
| 22:08 |
iqualfragile |
kahrl: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/744 would be nice to have |
| 22:08 |
kahrl |
iqualfragile: that's a feature; it's feature freeze now |
| 22:08 |
sapier |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/739 this one too |
| 22:08 |
iqualfragile |
i would rather consider the spawining buggy |
| 22:08 |
sapier |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/740 i guess this one wouldn't be bad too |
| 22:09 |
celeron55_ |
stuff can be merged only if they fix critical bugs or fix bugs caused by recent changes |
| 22:09 |
kahrl |
did you check the code of #739 and #740 if they are correct? |
| 22:10 |
iqualfragile |
it stops people from spawning midair, so its a bugfix :p |
| 22:10 |
kahrl |
iqualfragile: has a good chance of introducing new bugs so it'll have to wait in my opinion |
| 22:10 |
sapier |
celeron those commits fix scriptapi separation bugs (except last one) that one fixes a generic bug |
| 22:10 |
iqualfragile |
well, ok |
| 22:11 |
sapier |
I need to reboot my mouse got frozen ... I hate this bug |
| 22:12 |
kahrl |
back to going through them back to front |
| 22:13 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/296 not caused by anything recent |
| 22:13 |
|
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| 22:14 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/324 same, also looks controversial |
| 22:14 |
sapier |
did anyone notice the #pull links in irclog is still pointing to https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/issues |
| 22:14 |
RealBadAngel |
there was a pull to remove registered craft recipes |
| 22:15 |
RealBadAngel |
imho very needed one |
| 22:15 |
sapier |
tba this is a feature addon I don't think this should be added after feature freeze |
| 22:15 |
sapier |
-t+r |
| 22:15 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/409 Fix glitch ladders -- not sure what this does exactly but sounds non critical |
| 22:16 |
celeron55_ |
it's also somewhat controversial |
| 22:17 |
sapier |
kahrl #740 fixes issues where minetest would crash if those cases happened atm |
| 22:17 |
sapier |
#739 fixes a bug I added when adding lua function traces |
| 22:18 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/426 this seems to change the liquid update code a lot so probably not suitable for a feature freeze |
| 22:18 |
sapier |
but I didn't test that code still it's small and looks correct |
| 22:18 |
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| 22:18 |
RealBadAngel |
anyways, celeron55_ im goin to start separate game project, whenever you like it or not. im too old for youngster to dictate what i can do. i will publish links for the project and let community decide. |
| 22:19 |
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emptty joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:19 |
RealBadAngel |
i think it ends the discussion |
| 22:19 |
kahrl |
RealBadAngel, that's what he suggested from the beginning 8) |
| 22:19 |
RealBadAngel |
so done |
| 22:19 |
kahrl |
sapier: I'll test #739-#741 and merge them if they seem ok |
| 22:20 |
sapier |
I'd be sad about you leaving community rba |
| 22:20 |
kahrl |
after I go through these other pulls |
| 22:20 |
kahrl |
sapier, I didn't understand that comment as leaving the community? |
| 22:20 |
sapier |
no? |
| 22:21 |
sapier |
ok so I wont be sad |
| 22:21 |
sapier |
:-) |
| 22:21 |
kahrl |
just building an additional gamemode |
| 22:21 |
sapier |
too many ppl left due to stupid issues the last year |
| 22:22 |
ShadowNinja |
Feature freeze now? How long? /topic? |
| 22:22 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/439 needs a rebase |
| 22:22 |
RealBadAngel |
kahrl, but that wasnt the real point, i just showed with this once again that we cannot push anything into minetest_game |
| 22:22 |
sapier |
until 0.4.7 release shadowninja |
| 22:22 |
kahrl |
ShadowNinja: 48 hours |
| 22:22 |
RealBadAngel |
sadly i was right |
| 22:23 |
RealBadAngel |
but shit, there are many folders in the world |
| 22:23 |
sapier |
yes RBA I guess we need improved support for multiple gamemodes |
| 22:23 |
ShadowNinja |
Hmmm, sounds too short... |
| 22:23 |
kahrl |
ShadowNinja: as hmmmm said there were 5 days without any activity |
| 22:24 |
sapier |
there even was a day without comments in minetest-dev ;-) |
| 22:24 |
kahrl |
if a really critical bug is found the duration can be extended |
| 22:25 |
sapier |
any volonteers for maintaining a stable branch adding critical fixes 2 weeks after release? |
| 22:26 |
kahrl |
sapier: it'd be easier to just make another release |
| 22:26 |
sapier |
but usually we don't do that ;-) have a look at 0.4.6 there are some critical bugs in |
| 22:27 |
kahrl |
yeah that was bad |
| 22:27 |
sapier |
but it's only a suggestion |
| 22:28 |
sapier |
e.g. releasing 0.4.7 and about two weeks later 0.4.7.1 containing only bugfixes for critical problems missed |
| 22:28 |
celeron55_ |
nobody should have any need to think like sapier now said |
| 22:28 |
celeron55_ |
a release should always be made if bad bugs are fixed |
| 22:28 |
celeron55_ |
and no, that's fucking horrible |
| 22:29 |
celeron55_ |
there are already three version levels, the last one is "patch" level which is the one that can be arbitrarily incremented |
| 22:29 |
sapier |
I totaly agree with you celeron that it should be ... but most time it isn't |
| 22:29 |
celeron55_ |
well then make it not be |
| 22:29 |
celeron55_ |
i mean, be |
| 22:30 |
sapier |
I don't see how we can do this without having ppl test our versions ... maybe by releasing a 0.4.7 rc1 about a week prior release? |
| 22:30 |
celeron55_ |
just release 0.4.8 immediately after if 0.4.7 turns out to be crap |
| 22:30 |
celeron55_ |
it's not like we'd run out of integers... |
| 22:30 |
RealBadAngel |
most stable code turns out to be unstable when goes public |
| 22:31 |
sapier |
my experience is that doesn't happen but maybe I'll be prooven wrong in future ;-) |
| 22:31 |
RealBadAngel |
abusers are able to do things simple coders cannot imagine ;) |
| 22:31 |
celeron55_ |
sapier: say that to those who released 0.4.6 |
| 22:31 |
|
Topic for #minetest-dev is now >>> FREEZE until June 2 23:59 UTC (0.4.7) <<< Minetest core development and maintenance. Chit-chat goes to #minetest. Consider this instead of /msg celeron55. http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/ http://dev.minetest.net/ |
| 22:32 |
sapier |
I assumed those ppl are in here :-) |
| 22:36 |
kahrl |
most of the other pull requests are enhancements... |
| 22:36 |
kahrl |
next fix: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/670 |
| 22:37 |
kahrl |
"Fix build on big endian architectures" did anyone test this / look at it? |
| 22:38 |
kahrl |
they didn't provide the link celeron asked for :| |
| 22:41 |
celeron55_ |
it's stupid because experienced programmers don't care to explain their doings, and noobs don't know what they're doing so they can't explain it, and in the end both look the same |
| 22:42 |
kahrl |
I think a better solution would be to use TestBigEndian.cmake in order to not rely on compiler specific things |
| 22:42 |
sapier |
670 only changes #if to #ifdef |
| 22:44 |
kahrl |
oh and they change irrUString.h which should ideally be left untouched |
| 22:44 |
kahrl |
in case somebody wants to update that file from upstream in the future |
| 22:46 |
kahrl |
hmm apparently TestBigEndian.cmake does not handle cross compilation |
| 22:52 |
kahrl |
putting #670 on hold for now |
| 22:53 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/706 HUD Bugfix -- is actually an enhancement |
| 22:56 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/730 modified print format codes to use platform specific 64-bit codes (mingw) |
| 22:57 |
kahrl |
should probably be done but are inttypes.h and the PRIu64 etc. macros available on all supported platforms? |
| 22:58 |
sapier |
afaik inttypes.h is standard ... but not sure if all of it's content is standard too |
| 22:59 |
kahrl |
perhaps the places that use %llu should use ostringstream instead of sprintf |
| 23:00 |
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sweetbomber joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:11 |
PilzAdam |
kahrl, re: fix glitch ladders: last time I mentioned it here people said they want it to stay, although I prefer to fix it |
| 23:12 |
PilzAdam |
I cant remember who "people" are, though |
| 23:12 |
PilzAdam |
IIRC Jordach |
| 23:18 |
kahrl |
it's a controversial thing in any case |
| 23:19 |
kahrl |
not suitably for merge during a feature freeze |
| 23:19 |
kahrl |
suitable* |
| 23:19 |
PilzAdam |
btw: whoever will bump the version, do not forget to update lua-api.txt too |
| 23:20 |
PilzAdam |
and maybe update the link at the top of it too |
| 23:23 |
kahrl |
any objections? https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5688612 |
| 23:24 |
kahrl |
this fixes #730 without relying on the existence of certain macros in inttypes.h |
| 23:24 |
kahrl |
which might be fine to rely on but I'm not sure |
| 23:25 |
kahrl |
hold on this is missing a percent |
| 23:26 |
sapier |
std::ios_base::binary? why? (I don't know if it's right or wrong i just don't understand it) |
| 23:26 |
PilzAdam |
I really dont know much about strings in c++, but when I look at this then I dont want to learn it :-) |
| 23:27 |
kahrl |
sapier: it's used almost everywhere that ostringstream is used and doesn't really hurt |
| 23:27 |
sapier |
then this is a wrong conlusion pilzadam strings in c++ are quite powerfull so it's usage is a little bit more difficult than char* ;-) |
| 23:27 |
kahrl |
makes the output of the stringstream more predictable in any case |
| 23:28 |
Exio |
sapier: it is called "i already know brainfuck, i don't want to learn whitespace" |
| 23:28 |
PilzAdam |
sapier, Im used to the java.lang.String class |
| 23:29 |
sapier |
I guess it's somehow similar but I don't use java regularly |
| 23:29 |
Exio |
lol PilzAdam |
| 23:30 |
kahrl |
with the missing percent sign: https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5688630 |
| 23:31 |
PilzAdam |
its good as long as it works and you dont change the ouput |
| 23:32 |
PilzAdam |
does this "std::setprecision()" have any effect outside of the string? |
| 23:32 |
kahrl |
only if you append to the same ostringstream afterwards |
| 23:33 |
kahrl |
which doesn't happen (the scope is closed a few lines below) |
| 23:33 |
kahrl |
I changed a tiny thing in the output |
| 23:33 |
kahrl |
"drawtime=" is now "drawtime = " |
| 23:33 |
kahrl |
for symmetry with the other variables |
| 23:42 |
kahrl |
sapier: are you OK with https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/742 being merged into upstream? |
| 23:43 |
kahrl |
it will cause rebase conflicts with next_gen_main_menu but they will be easy to fix |
| 23:43 |
sapier |
yes add it I'll fix the conflicts |
| 23:44 |
kahrl |
ok anyone else any objections (also to https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5688630) |
| 23:45 |
hmmmm |
huh? what's the point of that last one |
| 23:45 |
Exio |
fixing warnings |
| 23:45 |
hmmmm |
ah |
| 23:46 |
kahrl |
hmmmm: mingw's (sn)printf doesn't support %llu |
| 23:46 |
hmmmm |
that's a real shame |
| 23:46 |
kahrl |
needs annoying compatibility macros instead which I'm not sure exist everywhere |
| 23:46 |
hmmmm |
they are standard for POSIX systems |
| 23:46 |
kahrl |
mingw needs %I64u |
| 23:49 |
kahrl |
I'll merge the gist then and then #742 and then I'll look at #739-#741 |
| 23:55 |
Exio |
why is #562 won't fix? |
| 23:57 |
sapier |
at least scriptapi separation added some changes to mutexes |
| 23:58 |
Exio |
kk |
| 23:58 |
sapier |
so system wide most likely would break build |
| 23:58 |
sapier |
i didin't even know about that issue until now |
