Time Nick Message 03:52 RealBadAngel lookin at logs it was a very silent day yesterday ;) 03:52 RealBadAngel whats up folks? 04:30 kahrl have to do some image processing coding for work, not much time for minetest currently :( 04:33 RealBadAngel on this weekend im moving to a new flat, so i will be offline for a few days 04:35 RealBadAngel depends on how fast the provider enable the connection for me 04:38 RealBadAngel before i go offline i will post bumpmapping patch, moon flowers and new dye crafting system 04:41 RealBadAngel moon flower will provide brand new fluorescent dye 04:42 RealBadAngel imho way better than torch in crafting recipes to get glowing nodes 04:42 RealBadAngel and mortar+pestle item to craft dyes 04:44 RealBadAngel and to PilzAdam, yes im aware minecraft doesnt do this that way 04:45 RealBadAngel imho we have to stop following mc and go our own way 04:46 RealBadAngel we are already at this point where mc can look at us at copy our ideas. its Jeb's work 04:47 RealBadAngel *and 04:49 kaeza nice idea about flurescent dyes 04:49 kaeza for example, homedecor lamps (previously from 3dforniture) used torches along with paper 04:50 kaeza *table lamps 04:50 kaeza that would invite trouble IRL :P 04:52 RealBadAngel hehe indeed 04:53 RealBadAngel crafting burnin torch with something else? nothin but fire 04:55 RealBadAngel fluorescent dye could be used for crafting nodes that emits light, mesecons displays, monitors etc 04:55 RealBadAngel and will be logical 04:59 RealBadAngel and when we get hardware light workin, lamp + fluorescent dye + coloured dye 05:00 RealBadAngel to get coloured light source 05:15 hmmmm hmmmmmm 05:15 hmmmm not a minetest related question but, does anybody know what the GNU make equivalent to bsd's .ifmake is? 05:37 RealBadAngel no fuckin idea what youre talkin about 05:38 kahrl not sure either but maybe this? http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/html_node/Target_002dspecific.html 05:50 hmmmm ahh 05:51 hmmmm thank you actually that does the trick nicely 05:52 RealBadAngel hi hmmmm 05:52 hmmmm hello 05:53 RealBadAngel i will be out for a few days 05:53 RealBadAngel starting tommorow 05:53 RealBadAngel im moving to a new flat 05:53 hmmmm ah nice 05:54 RealBadAngel i will be back as soon as provider connect me in 05:54 hmmmm okay 05:55 RealBadAngel they told me "a few days" but im not sure 08:14 kahrl any objections? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/742 08:15 kahrl I've seen this bug happen randomly before and didn't know what caused it 08:15 kahrl and I don't think anything could break from initializing SEvent structs properly 08:16 sapier1 why is keyInput moved? 08:17 sapier1 keyInput.key to be exact 08:17 sapier1 ok ok its just resorting for better readability 08:17 kahrl yes, for code symmetry I assume 08:18 sapier1 hmm only a single change of that commit will remain after formspec menu merge 08:19 kahrl ah, I wasn't sure if that collided anywhere 08:19 kahrl good that you checked 08:20 sapier1 guiCreateWorld is removed completely guiFormspec is changed to huge extent ... guiTextInput ... wasn't that the part PlizAdam wanted to remove because it isn't used anymore? 08:20 sapier1 but I'm not sure about later thing 08:21 kahrl last time I checked guiTextInputMenu was still used in your branch for chat input? 08:22 kahrl if it can be replaced with a formspec that could be done 08:24 sapier1 I didn't do any changes on ingame menus I guess the chat menu could completely be replaced by lua implementation 08:25 sapier1 ok somehow the "/" key needs to trigger lua action .... but if this isn't working already I guess lots of moders will be thankfull to the one adding on_key_press() 08:27 kahrl that would make opening the chat menu a lot laggier though 08:27 kahrl not sure how annoying that would be 08:27 sapier1 so if you cherry pick the guiTextInput changes this merge will be ok :-) everything else is useless :-) 08:28 sapier1 I add the guiFormspec fix to my patch 08:28 kahrl how close is the next gen main menu to being ready to merge? 08:29 sapier1 I haven't heared any complains for a while so I guess it's (almost) done 08:30 sapier1 only issues left are "game buttons don't look exactly same as before" and "you have to click once to catch mouse after join" 08:30 sapier1 first is a minor issue 08:31 kahrl and my dynamic_cast issues, I'll try to hunt them down again today 08:31 sapier1 yes that's the more obscure 3rd one I thought you already fixed it as you didn't say anything about it 08:31 kahrl I just didn't have time to look at it 08:32 sapier1 quicks solution would be using c casts but I guess that'd hide the real problem 08:32 kahrl I'd rather not do that 08:33 sapier1 me too as that special case is exactly what dynamic_cast's are for 08:38 kahrl when I try to run the current next_gen_main_menu branch it fails on startup 08:38 kahrl http://paste.dy.fi/Soo 08:39 sapier1 curl or non curl mode? 08:39 kahrl curl is compiled in, not sure if that means curl mode 08:40 sapier1 I don't have curl ;-) 08:40 sapier1 but this needs to be fixed of course 08:45 sapier can you check latest version? I changed the checks for int json values 08:46 sapier but I wonder why this did throw an exception for you this means the max_clients value isn't an int value 08:49 kahrl it works now 08:49 sapier ok wonder why noone did report this before 08:49 kahrl I'll make it print out the JSON to see what might be wrong 08:49 kahrl guess noone checked ;) 08:50 sapier yes that's probably best explanaition 08:52 kahrl I peppered mainmenu.lua with print statements and it used to fail in get_favorites("local") 08:52 kahrl so maybe my local serverlist is somehow broken 08:52 sapier local? hmm 08:52 sapier of course there is no max clients 08:53 sapier ok the previous check was wrong as it checked size of string ... i assumed this'd be 0 in local case 08:53 sapier obviously a missinterpretation 08:53 sapier so the new version is fine 08:54 sapier lol 08:55 sapier in online case l_get_favourites fetches local list 08:55 sapier I guess this is exactly inverted 08:56 kahrl heh indeed 08:56 sapier not a critical bug but anoying :) fixed 08:59 kahrl are there any other places where a unexpected online serverlist can crash the client? 08:59 kahrl such as missing fields or wrong-typed ones 09:01 sapier I changed the two number values in there to "asInt" and fixed their checks, everything else was there in previous minetest versions too 09:02 kahrl ok 09:02 sapier everything else (i know about) are stirng values checked by stringlength 09:02 kahrl I will audit this part a bit after the new menu is merged and try to fix problems I see 09:03 kahrl some of it might be security relevant 09:03 sapier ok thanks ... if you have sparetime try to check the mod and gamemanager too 09:03 sapier they're disabled by default 09:03 kahrl not much currently but I'll try to find some time 09:05 sapier at least modmanager is most likely to be enabled anytime soon as it's intended to be used as central instance for installing mods including moddb online integration (to be done) 09:14 kahrl I guess I should be happy that you fixed the problem but it makes me feel nervous that I don't understand why it failed ;) 09:14 kahrl this is the JSON it choked on: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5719324/ 09:15 kahrl all the "clients" and "clients_max" fields seem to be convertible to int 09:18 kahrl hmm if I read the implementation of isConvertibleTo correctly then isConvertibleTo(intValue) never returns true for a string 09:18 sapier very strange 09:19 sapier great 09:19 kahrl and asInt does not parse a string it just coerces other numeric types 09:19 sapier ok I guess the solution was to easy .. I'll do it manually and push again 09:19 sapier what the hell are those functions for if they don't do anything usefull? 09:20 kahrl they are for giving you a happy fun time developing 09:20 kahrl until the QA department comes to you and says it doesn't work ;) 09:21 sapier imho if you supplie a asInt function for a generic datatype this function should be able to give you any convertable value asInt ... like the name says ;-) 09:23 kahrl why does the online serverlist store some of the numeric fields as string anyway? 09:23 sapier I don't have any idea :-) 09:23 sapier most likely because the one writing it didn't bother about datatypes 09:24 kahrl huh and "damage" is sometimes "1" and sometimes "true" 09:24 kahrl ah, guess that's directly from minetest.conf 09:25 sapier I guess I found next bug ... so damage might be 0/false in server list too am I correct? 09:25 kahrl anything that Setting::getBool can parse, I assume 09:25 kahrl Settings* 09:26 kahrl so use is_yes 09:26 sapier great ... so I need to parse any stupid value ... imho reading is wrong place to fix this ... but it's allmost impossible to revert the errorneous design of serverlist out there 09:27 sapier there is a is_yes function? 09:27 kahrl there is, in util/string.h 09:28 sapier wow :-) good to know I added some helper code to menu to fix this issue ... I'll remove it and use is_yes 09:32 kahrl is guiLuaApi::isMinetestPath used for sandboxing? 09:33 sapier partly 09:33 kahrl I'm asking because it looks like you can circumvent by using a path like /tmp/../etc/passwd 09:33 sapier sandboxing wasn't main issue of formspec menu but where I needed to check paths I did it in a sane way 09:35 sapier fs::AbsolutePath fixes that issue 09:36 sapier a function I've written originaly for security fixes and reused here 09:36 sapier but 09:36 kahrl is fs::AbsolutePath used on the path argument? I don't see it 09:37 sapier yes you're right it's not used for tmp thats an error 09:39 kahrl I think engine.delete_dir("/home/kahrl/minetest/worlds/../..") would also attempt to delete my home directory 09:40 kahrl not going to try it ;) 09:40 sapier no I don't think this would happen 09:41 sapier absolute path for this is /home/kahrl 09:41 sapier and isMinetestPath should return false for this 09:44 sapier ok json as well as isMinetestPath are fixed 09:51 kahrl ah sorry I didn't see that l_delete_dir already called fs::AbsolutePath 09:51 kahrl just looked at l_create_dir 09:51 sapier no problem I didn't see the tmp error at beginning too 09:52 celeron55 it's not secure enough until you can try delete_dir("/home/kahrl/minetest/worlds/../..") without pissing in your pants :P 09:52 sapier yes create dir doesn't check .. I remember there was a reason for this ... hmm 09:53 kahrl perhaps fs::AbsolutePath fails if the dir doesn't exist? 09:54 kahrl yeah probably because of realpath returing ENOENT 09:55 kahrl returning* 09:57 kahrl one possibly solution for that is to take fs::AbsolutePath of the parent directory... and if that fails try the parent of the parent, and so on 09:58 kahrl and call isMinetestPath on the first ancestor where fs::AbsolutePath works 09:59 kahrl (also fail if the "parent" path component is ..) 10:00 kahrl actually, not sure if the latter check is needed 10:04 kahrl ok so the only real issue left is being able to create a dir anywhere 10:04 kahrl such as engine.create_dir("/home/kahrl/minetest/worlds/../../PWNED") 10:06 kahrl all the other calls to isMinetestPath use (already used) AbsolutePath 10:06 kahrl and being able to create arbitrary directories isn't that critical 10:16 sfan5 what about disallowing ".."? 10:18 kahrl path_share and path_user are ".." in RUN_IN_PLACE builds 10:19 celeron55 i don't see much problem in checking create_dir paths 10:20 celeron55 just strip the last part and see if the result is a legit path 10:22 kahrl create_dir is like mkdir -p 10:23 kahrl the parent directory doesn't necessarily exist either 10:23 celeron55 well, then try all alternatives :P 10:23 kahrl yup, that's what I'm coding ;) 10:27 sapier I remember reason for not using absolute path in create dir was absolute path failing for non existent paths :-) 10:28 sapier so creating recursive paths fails 10:29 sapier if you strip until it works you may miss ".." ... unless you dissallow ".." completely 10:29 celeron55 well, stripping ".." should probably be disallowed (otherwise it 10:29 celeron55 +'s kind of complicated) 10:30 sapier yes but this will result in a cripled create_dir ... yes it's more secure but to do it that way I need support of some core developers as there will be ppl not accepting that limitation 10:31 celeron55 well, of course it can be done; it basically requires just stripping one legit dir per .. 10:31 celeron55 8) 10:32 sapier I didn't intend to reimplement realpath ;-) 10:33 sapier you need to consider "/" "\" mixed pathnames too ... so I guess this is a lot more complicated 10:33 celeron55 hmm, actually all it requires is automatically passing the input of create_dir through some path absolutizer 10:33 * celeron55 is stupid 10:34 sapier I'm not sure about that but I guess realpath resolves symlinks too 10:34 sapier yes it does 10:35 sapier if filling filesystem with dirs would be only security issue left I guess it'd be worth fixing it :-) but there are much more critical errors 10:36 celeron55 well consuming all space or memory or something can't be taken as a concern 10:36 celeron55 it can be done almost always anyway 10:37 celeron55 you can do that even in web browsers :P 10:38 kahrl hmm CreateAllDirs does something like pos = basepath.rfind(DIR_DELIM_C); 10:38 kahrl to strip off path components 10:38 kahrl which ignores '/' on windows although it shouldn't 10:38 sapier grrr I just realized my last fix for "/tmp" check resulting in inability to create dirs in "/tmp" 10:40 sapier I guess I need to fix the createdir problem to make this work correctly anyway 10:41 kahrl sapier, I'm currently doing some stuff related to create_dir 10:41 kahrl maybe it will already fix the /tmp problem 10:41 sapier ok if doing so be sure that "isMinetestPath" must not be called with non existent directorys (as it's done atm) 10:42 kahrl yeah 10:43 kahrl although, are the calls to fs::AbsolutePath needed outside isMinetestPath? 10:43 kahrl otherwise I might add an argument "bool mustExist" to isMinetestPath 10:43 sapier atm it's not needed 10:44 kahrl and let isMinetestPath handle both situations gracefully 10:45 sapier this needs rewriting of isMinetestPath ... but I guess it's the way to go 10:46 kahrl isMinetestPath could also return the absolute path somehow but that might not be needed 10:47 sapier I'll do the isMinetestPath changes so createdir only needs to call it with false 10:47 kahrl hang on, I have already started 10:47 sapier I guess we need a "unrelative" function first removing all ".." from a path 10:48 sapier from this path you can start stripping elements until realpath succeeds 10:49 sapier and we can remove fs::absolutepath from delete dir too if isMinetestPath handles this 10:55 kahrl brb 12:38 kahrl back 12:54 kahrl sapier: I wrote RemoveLastPathComponent and RemoveRelativePathComponent functions 12:54 kahrl https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5684778 12:55 kahrl I removed DIR_DELIM_C because it is a bad way of checking if a char is a dir delimiter 12:55 kahrl since in win32 both '/' and '\\' are dir delimiters 12:56 sapier ok I'm gonna merge this today evening thx 12:57 sapier I need to fix the is_yes things too I guess it's better not to add a xth variant checking for yes to core if there already is one 13:01 kahrl sapier: this gist is only the path functions, I've just started working on isMinetestPath again 13:01 sapier oh ok if you want to do this too I wont stop you 13:01 kahrl I can try 13:02 sapier I guess it's good to to the isMinetestPath correct probably at some time it's gona be used to sandbox modding too ... but I doubt this will be anytime soon :-) 13:07 kahrl hmm I just noticed that getAvailableWorlds checks $path_user/world too 13:07 kahrl which is not an allowed path in isMinetestPath 13:08 kahrl so the new menu will probably not be able to delete such a world 13:19 sapier looks like an error I've not been aware of that location for worlds :-) there are tooo much locations where mintest searches for worlds atm :-). Is this path an old path or a current path? 13:20 kahrl a very old path but still supported 13:20 sapier as no world can be created there maybe this is a chance to drop support? 13:21 sapier I guess nobody would even notice :-) 13:21 celeron55 very old = 0.3 13:21 kahrl it's easy to add a check for ./world in isMinetestPath 13:21 celeron55 so if anyone updates 0.3 to 0.4 in-place, that's what he would stumble upon 13:22 sapier is world format still compatible? 13:22 celeron55 yes 13:22 celeron55 i have an automated test utility to check such too 13:23 sapier what about adding a test on bootup moving worlds to worlds folder? 13:23 sapier of course asking user if he's ok with it 13:23 sapier could be done in lua menu too 13:24 kahrl if it's done in lua you need to add ./world to isMinetestMenu anyway ;) 13:24 kahrl Path* 13:24 sapier didn't think about that 13:25 sapier still imho we need to get rid of some of those old compatibility code 13:25 celeron55 no we don't; it's just a matter of adding a path to a list anyway 13:26 sapier I'd have to look where this path is used too but I guess there need to be other modifications too 13:26 celeron55 i sure hope this does not interfere at all with any server stuff 13:27 celeron55 and the ability of MT to run a world from any location generally 13:27 kahrl sapier: lua should not care where a world is located 13:27 celeron55 actually, i *require* this 13:27 celeron55 not just hope 13:28 kahrl sapier: it gets the path from get_worlds and can assume isMinetestPath accepts the path 13:28 sapier it's only about mainmenu ... I already realized mainmenu will never fit any requirements of any ppl around. imho it should only implement a sane subset 13:28 celeron55 of course the menu can be unable to list such worlds, but the game should work 13:29 celeron55 people may want to eg. associate minetest with world.mt files and run worlds that way 13:29 sapier if it's that simple kahrl I don't have any problem with it I'm just worried some things might not work for worlds stored in world and ppl start complaining "but I can delet it why can't I do that" 13:30 sapier celeron we're only talking about delete not working for worlds stored in "world" 13:31 sapier at leat atm :-) maybe other things fail too 13:32 kahrl if they fail they can be fixed 13:32 sapier yes at cost of adding more complexity to mainmenu ... as always 13:33 kahrl compatibility with old worlds is important 13:33 sapier imho this is not a compatibility usecase 13:34 sapier imho adding a import function keeping base code clean and maintainable is a better way to keep compatibility 13:34 kahrl well if a certain features works with newly created worlds but not with ones created with an earlier version I'd say that's compatibility 13:35 kahrl feature* 13:35 sapier but still let's try if it's ok with just adding this path 13:35 sapier maybe marking those worlds in world list with a different color 13:36 kahrl the world will be called "Old World" 13:36 kahrl getAvailableWorlds does this 13:36 sapier ok good enough 13:37 sapier sorry but I've to go now 14:54 kahrl ohh 14:54 kahrl I completely interpreted wrong why Old World can't be deleted 14:54 kahrl the real reason is that mainmenu.lua:568 has a < where there should be a <= 14:55 kahrl well I fixed isMinetestPath anyway which is good 14:58 kahrl well mainmenu.lua:557 actually 15:04 kahrl all my modifications: https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5685589 15:05 kahrl the map.cpp change is the most dangerous one but I'm fairly certain it is safe 15:05 kahrl I will also add unit tests for the new path functions I wrote 15:07 celeron55 by the way, apparently GetTempPath can sometimes return an unusable path: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2365307/what-determines-the-return-value-of-path-gettemppath 15:08 celeron55 (welcome to windows) 15:09 celeron55 i guess it's not like anyone would expect that a modern OS could reliably spit out a path to store temporary files in 8) 15:13 Zeg9 Modern OS ? Reliability ? 15:13 Calinou you mean, "Modern OS ?" 15:13 Calinou that's enough 15:17 kahrl the reason TempPath is needed at all is for unzipping zip files 15:17 kahrl maybe it can be changed to unzip in place 15:23 kahrl or use cache/tmp maybe 15:25 Calinou https://community.dev.fedoraproject.org/packages/minetest (link to "fedora" on downloads page) => 404 15:26 kahrl Calinou: 502 here 15:27 Jordach http://i.imgur.com/7ufOThB.png 15:28 kahrl Jordach: certificate is for *.fedoraproject.org 15:29 kahrl http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcard_certificate "Only a single level of subdomain matching is supported." 15:29 Calinou I just click "proceed" when I see that kind of warning :phoronix rolleyes: 15:34 celeron55 that mostly doesn't matter as long as you consider browsing a https site without a proper certificate equal to http 15:35 celeron55 which mostly means that if some intelligent person is tracking you, he'll know everything you input or view on the site 15:38 celeron55 (altough that means a lot in the light that some people consider http not worth using for any purpose anymore) 15:38 Calinou http is much faster than https 15:39 celeron55 based on what 15:39 Calinou personal tests? 15:39 Calinou I don't have optic fiber *_* 15:39 kahrl perhaps because in your case http got cached and https not? 15:40 Calinou maybe 15:40 Calinou but https still tends to whine when you're not using signing, and that is annoying 15:40 Calinou that means you have to pay $90 to verisign & co to be considered "trusted" 15:40 celeron55 https has a slightly more heavyweight handshake (because it has a handshake and http has not); after that's done, it's not slower at all (the encryption is very lightweight) 15:41 celeron55 Calinou: website certificates are a different thing to https, altough in practice you stumble upon them on the net 15:41 kahrl Calinou: I agree, it'd be nice if there was an option to "just encrypt, don't authenticate" 15:41 Calinou ah ok 15:41 celeron55 browsers are designed to handle certificates like that because it's the most secure way for end users 15:41 celeron55 (that is, they trust only certain signing authorities) 15:43 celeron55 also, yes, http can be cached easily and https cannot, so that'll make a lot of the speed difference most of the time 16:46 sapier kahrl unzip in place isn't an option as modmanager tries to verify folder name in order to reduce users problems with invalid mod folders .... that's been one of the original reasons doing this thing at all ;-) 16:47 sapier and of course "in place" would add additional problems e.g. how to ensure no current mod is overwritten by unzip, how to make sure a mod doesn't modify another mod by unzipping a file to its folder ... lots of things, fixable but lot of work that can be avoided by temp paths 16:50 sapier kahrl Calinou encryption without authentification is useless as anyone could claim to be the site you connect to capturing your encrypted traffic reencrypting to destination site 16:59 celeron55 yeah; authentication "as the site you previously used at this url" is quite good though 16:59 celeron55 and browsers do support it; they just warn quite loudly at the first time like in Jordach's screenshot 17:00 sapier yes I read about an addon for firefox checking sites on p2p base too ... roughly if enough ppl think this site/certificate ist trustworthy its assumed to be 17:01 sapier of course some other parameters are used to distinguish too 17:02 sapier large amounts of memory have a big problem too ... they hide memory faults 17:08 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/165 17:08 sapier :-) moonflower 17:09 RealBadAngel im makin now the other part, with dyes 17:10 RealBadAngel and the fluorescent dye of course 17:10 Zeg9 RealBadAngel: can't wait to get this merged 17:11 sapier I guess we need to establish some sort of voting system 17:11 RealBadAngel all the code is by Taoki of course 17:11 RealBadAngel i mean the flower 17:12 Zeg9 sapier: do you mean for settings/kick/mute/ban ? 17:12 RealBadAngel i just found out this flower (which is awesome) can be source of fluorescent dye 17:12 sapier no for what mods shall be added to minetest_game 17:12 RealBadAngel and this can be used to craft glowing nodes 17:13 sapier we don't need voting in game as everyone uses minetest with trustworthy users as far as I have been told ;-) 17:13 Zeg9 true 17:13 Zeg9 Well. There is the forum poll but IIRC it needs to make a new topic for every poll... 17:14 sapier not for core addons for game only 17:42 sweetbomber hmmm: is any way i can peek on your mapgen_v7 fork? what is your github name? 17:42 sweetbomber i wanted to get up-to-date on that 17:42 celeron55 kwolekr 17:43 celeron55 dunno if he keeps any online version up-to-date though 17:44 celeron55 doesn 17:44 celeron55 +'t look too much like so 17:44 sweetbomber oh 17:44 celeron55 most of it goes directly to upstream afaik 17:45 celeron55 so what you have is probably reasonably recent 17:57 sweetbomber the thing is that, for example, i have heard that biomedef's are loaded from a config file, but by inspecting biome.cpp and biome.h i cant find anything related.. it seems to only register the biomes, not load data... 17:58 sweetbomber anyway, that was just a detail 17:59 sweetbomber ill structure my ideas based on current release 17:59 celeron55 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/script/lua_api/luaapi.cpp#L153 17:59 celeron55 this is really all it takes as input, game content wise 18:00 celeron55 it doesn't implement everything (hmmmm's "decoration" stuff will complement it) 18:00 Jordach whats the decorations? 18:01 sweetbomber oh! its called from lua! ok, got it 18:01 celeron55 stuff that the map generator places on ground and inside ground 18:01 Jordach aye. 18:01 celeron55 sweetbomber: yes, all game content is inserted at load-time into the engine by lua 18:01 hmmmm right, i'll have to finally commit that sometime soon 18:04 proller any objections? https://github.com/proller/minetest/commit/5b4c714a6702cbb66a3a5eade1f0e0dadefd6ce2 18:04 hmmmm hey sweetbomber, if your idea turns out to work correctly, perhaps you could have caves generated in a similar manner so that there's no need for border blocks in a chunk 18:06 sweetbomber hmmm, in fact, i already have hatched an idea...but ill test it first on matlab 18:07 sweetbomber lets rewind to the problem: 18:08 sweetbomber if the PRNG is used to select the initial node/2dcoord of a structure 18:08 sweetbomber and that structure can propagate to several chunks 18:09 sweetbomber then when we are building a chunk it is not trivial to know if in that particular chuck a structure gets to be generated there 18:09 sweetbomber moreover, the same structure must be generated no matter the order in which chunks are generated 18:10 sweetbomber this can be summarized as a non-causality problem 18:10 sweetbomber (imagine the trigger to build a structure as the "cause", and the structure as the "effect") 18:11 hmmmm actually... use noise3d() instead of 2d, since there are overlapping terrain features 18:11 sweetbomber (ill go to that point latter) 18:11 sweetbomber as so, from any place the structure is to be built, we need to know that it is going to be built there 18:12 sweetbomber what i thought was: 18:13 sweetbomber imagine a surface like those built from using perlin noise as height 18:14 hmmmm just so you're aware, this is a really big change 18:15 hmmmm and it will probably degrade generation performance 18:15 sweetbomber and use a certain threshold, above which it is considered that such section can accomodate structures 18:15 sweetbomber this would solve the "know if chunk has structure or not" 18:16 sweetbomber however there is another thing: whatever the chunk-load order, the structure(s) must be the same 18:16 sweetbomber for that, one common feature must be taken from that section 18:16 hmmmm you should keep in mind that with this, you'd still have to calculate every point in a much larger surrounding radius 18:16 sweetbomber and im thinking taking such feature e.g. from the maximum of that function's at that cut 18:17 hmmmm to be exact, the radius would need to be the largest size in all dimensions that a decoration could possibly be 18:17 sweetbomber no, the point is exactly that: you dont have to load what you dont need 18:17 sweetbomber imagine the following: 18:17 sweetbomber you calculate the value of that function for the current chunk 18:17 sweetbomber if it is under the threshold, no prob, there will be no structures in that chunk 18:18 hmmmm are you using perlin noise for this and not plain positional noise? 18:18 sweetbomber (btw, this threshold could be used to set the propability of generating a given type of structure) 18:18 sweetbomber i am not sure yet what would be best for this... 18:18 sweetbomber but continuing: 18:19 sweetbomber if the function is above the threshold, the "common feature" must be extracted 18:19 sweetbomber (this common feature is something that must lead to the same value in a given cut) 18:19 sweetbomber for now, i am thinking of using the local maximum 18:20 sweetbomber that maximum would be used to feed the structure generator 18:20 hmmmm well, i guess it doesn't hurt to try to see if you can come up with something based on that 18:20 sweetbomber that generator would iterate until it gets to nodes inside the current chunk, and then it would effectively commit them 18:20 hmmmm i think the details are vague because they're not trivial to figure out, and when you do it might become more complicated than you thought it would be originally 18:21 hmmmm i still think i'm right though. 18:21 sweetbomber well, i think there are two aspects difficult to assess apriori 18:21 sweetbomber first, the 2d noise function: what to use 18:22 sweetbomber first, the 2d noise function: what to use and what its performance 18:22 hmmmm nevermind the performance aspect 18:22 sweetbomber second: the "virtual" (outside current chunk) structure generation must be fast 18:22 sweetbomber or at least able to jump uncessesary steps 18:23 sweetbomber regarding the use of 2d or 3d noise, i was thinking about the following 18:23 sweetbomber each biome could have as parameters the input to a gaussian function, which would determine the probability of it occuring at a given height 18:23 hmmmm if you're considering perlin noise, a large problem might be dealing with the variance of the steepness of slopes 18:24 sweetbomber i got some matlab perlin-noise generator, and ill test with that 18:25 sweetbomber (sorry about my matlab fetish, but i prefer to experiment with matlab than with something else) 18:25 sweetbomber but using the gaussian curve as height probability would ease a lot of things 18:25 sweetbomber first, each biome only require two more parameters: variance and mean 18:26 sweetbomber and it would simplify e.g. the generation of special floating islands (like hidden paradizes, with hidden treasures) 18:27 sweetbomber or the generation of stuff very deep underground (instead of nether-portals like in mc, it could be possible to dig a lot to the bottom and reach hell 18:27 sweetbomber what do you think about these ideas? 18:28 sweetbomber if you have nothing to note, ill try it and pay special attention to your warnings 18:28 hmmmm pretty complicated and way out there, just don't be disappointed if something doesn't work 18:29 celeron55 i think what you explained in detail about figuring out which chunk contains which structures doesn't really solve anything, or alternatively you're bad at explaining or i am bad at understanding 18:30 hmmmm i understand what he means, i could probably demonstrate it better by drawing a picture but i couldn't be arsed to do that 18:30 celeron55 probably everyone in here agrees about height-specific biomes though 18:30 sweetbomber probably i explained myself wrong 18:31 hmmmm again, if it works out, that's fantastic 18:31 sweetbomber the height i was talking about was not of the game map, but of a f(x,z) function independent to the height 18:31 proller will commit ! https://github.com/proller/minetest/commit/5b4c714a6702cbb66a3a5eade1f0e0dadefd6ce2 18:31 hmmmm proller, looks good 18:32 proller tested ~week on "sky" 18:32 hmmmm just a minor stylistic complaint though, i wish everybody would just put if (foo) return; on separate lines 18:32 sweetbomber the structure generation algorithm is the one that would use all the other parameters already used (heat, humidity and height) 18:32 proller ok 18:32 hmmmm also you misspelled neighbors 18:32 hmmmm but it doesn't really matter 18:33 hmmmm oh sweetbomber, a problem i'm having with the biomes that i wasn't able to solve is that calculating what biome to use is an O(n) operation and i don't like that 18:33 sweetbomber n is the number of biomes, i presume? 18:33 hmmmm yes 18:34 sweetbomber i believe it happens because it is searched what biome is more close to the head/humm/height of the area? 18:34 PilzAdam proller, we have discussed to remove the finite liquid checkbox from the GUI some time ago 18:35 hmmmm yes, finding the least distance 18:35 PilzAdam proller, it just doesnt work so good and many people enable it without knowing what it is 18:35 sweetbomber well, at a first glance, search algoritms can be optimized to something like log2(n) 18:35 proller PilzAdam, and make it default? ;) 18:35 sweetbomber but maybe it can be simplified 18:36 sweetbomber because such optimization is based on tree search 18:36 hmmmm if you could reduce this to nothing more than a searching problem, that'd be a big step in the right direction 18:36 PilzAdam proller, so, what do you think about it? 18:36 hmmmm it's not that simple though, since you'd need to calculate all of the distances from each of the biomes 18:37 hmmmm which is the inherently O(n) part 18:37 celeron55 it's highly likely not an unknown problem in mathematics though 18:37 proller PilzAdam, many peoples like it 18:37 celeron55 so there are some kinds of optimizations for it for sure (involving precalculating some kind of values, most likely) 18:37 PilzAdam proller, many core devs dont like it 18:37 sweetbomber celeron55, you are right 18:37 proller PilzAdam, i use it without checkbox, remove if you want 18:37 PilzAdam compared to the default behaviour the finite liquids suck 18:38 proller default liquid - not liquid 18:38 sweetbomber i think the biomes could be clustered offline 18:38 Jordach with some work, this could be added into default: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=5429 18:38 proller its blue blocks 18:38 Jordach and use the bone blocks to craft bonemeal 18:38 sweetbomber and then, the distance can be calculated first by looking for the nearest cluster, 18:38 PilzAdam Jordach, we already have regrowing flowers and grass 18:39 sweetbomber and then only look among the biomes in that cluster 18:39 Jordach just 2c 18:39 PilzAdam proller, the good thing in games it that we can define what a liquid is :-) 18:39 hmmmm sweetbomber, i considered breaking the ranges for heat and humidity and elevation into like, 64 discrete values 18:39 PilzAdam proller, also, finite liquids isnt really more realistic, water doesnt disappear 18:39 sweetbomber depending on the number of clusters and biomes per cluster, this would do something inferior to O(n) 18:40 hmmmm but 64x64x64 is 256 kb 18:40 hmmmm and not only that but 18:40 hmmmm you'd lose the precision needed for the elevation part 18:40 sweetbomber yes 18:40 RealBadAngel finite liquids require some more work just to become better 18:40 sweetbomber did you understand my clustering idea? 18:40 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, yes 18:40 hmmmm let me re-read that 18:40 celeron55 could some kind of quad tree kind of thing work 18:40 RealBadAngel but considering removing them at all is wrong 18:40 celeron55 or umm... 18:41 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, but nobody seems to be interested in that (except proller and he thinks its good already) 18:41 RealBadAngel lets talk what shall be done to make it better 18:41 celeron55 was the point that you really only need some of the closest biomes for calculating which biome is actually applied? 18:41 celeron55 (usually) 18:41 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, I could make a list 18:41 RealBadAngel ideas, we need ideas what shall be done 18:41 hmmmm you're clustering them based on height, right? 18:41 proller i think its better than default, and it need more wrk, as whole game 18:41 RealBadAngel go ahead, make it 18:42 hmmmm since that's the thing that needs to be exact 18:42 RealBadAngel proller, ofc, thats the point 18:42 sweetbomber imagine the simplest case: biomes are only defined by heat and humidity 18:42 proller last idea - to make water dropable as sand 18:42 hmmmm that's a simple 2d array 18:42 proller but not finished 18:42 hmmmm which wouldn't be a problem to precalculate at all 18:42 sweetbomber this way, we can pin out the biomes in a plane and its easier to understand the idea (its easily scalable to 3d) 18:42 RealBadAngel proller, PilzAdam maybe you two can make a list together 18:43 proller and now i prepare commit to make liquid a bit better 18:43 sweetbomber then, make clusters from the near biomes 18:43 sweetbomber so, groups of similar biomes are grouped in one cluster, and so on 18:43 RealBadAngel u both represent different points of view at this problem, so an agreement between u two shall be a good solution 18:43 sweetbomber (there are efficient methods to do that, k-means for example) 18:44 sweetbomber in the end, we have, lets say, 3 groups of biomes 18:44 sweetbomber and each group (or cluster) has 3 biomes within 18:44 sweetbomber this is all done offline 18:45 sweetbomber now, to see what is the nearest biome, given heat and humidity 18:45 sweetbomber we first see what is the next cluster 18:45 sweetbomber O(3) 18:45 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, proller, https://gist.github.com/PilzAdam/5687050 18:45 sweetbomber and then within that cluster, we only need to search on 3 biomes 18:45 sweetbomber O(3) again in this cse 18:45 hmmmm well at this point it becomes a storage problem, not a complexity problem 18:45 RealBadAngel btw, about biomes, any chance to define gravity for a biome? 18:46 hmmmm realbadangel, sure, that'll go in with the sky color and other client-side things i guess. 18:46 sweetbomber well, returning to 3d, a cluster would only be a 3d point 18:46 RealBadAngel u know what i mean, outer space biomes for example 18:46 sweetbomber so its quite compact 18:47 Jordach biomes should also appear at certain heights as well as depths 18:47 proller PilzAdam, 4 - its generate water filled caves, or dont join caves with ocean 18:47 sweetbomber outer space like what? i am talking about the biome definitions, not where they should fit in the map 18:47 PilzAdam proller, whatever fixes the problem 18:48 proller but now by default ocean restor 0 level 18:51 celeron55 sweetbomber: if you can make a reference implementation of optimized biome calculation, i figure it'd be very useful 18:51 sweetbomber celeron55: ill give it a shot! 18:52 sweetbomber hmmmm: got the idea? 18:52 RealBadAngel sweetbomber, definin gravity for a biome will allow creating near core biomes with high gravity, aether biomes with antigravity, or space colonies without gravity at all 18:52 celeron55 the input to it is biomes in n-dimensional space and later it is asked the closest biome to a point in the space 18:52 hmmmm sure 18:53 celeron55 n being... umm... 3? 18:53 sweetbomber omg: i completely mixed up the chat 18:53 celeron55 theoretically anything though 18:54 celeron55 sweetbomber: nah, these other people mix it up 18:54 RealBadAngel hehe 18:54 sweetbomber for a moment i tought that RealBadAngel was hmmmm 18:54 RealBadAngel i just throw in some random ideas ;) 18:54 sweetbomber and answered as if it has anything to do with what we were talking about :p 18:55 sweetbomber celeron55: are there any ideas about nether-like world? 18:55 sweetbomber *about any 18:55 celeron55 depends on who you ask :P 18:56 sweetbomber lol, i mean as a long-term goal 18:56 PilzAdam sweetbomber, there is a nether mod ;-) 18:56 RealBadAngel PA have already a vision 18:57 RealBadAngel hehe 18:57 sweetbomber you know, there are things that people could just want to avoid, because it would look like too much like mc... 18:57 sweetbomber so i like to be cautious about that 18:57 celeron55 it's really hard to see who is even doing decisions here these days, but PilzAdam is used to making final decisions on game content these days 18:57 celeron55 sweetbomber: for sure it shouldn't be the exact same 18:58 sweetbomber the only thing i tought about different worlds, was to make it more physical: instead of magic portals, why not be possible to go there just by digging or making a giant tower? 18:59 RealBadAngel lets make a topic asking for ideas 18:59 RealBadAngel and collect best of them 18:59 celeron55 RealBadAngel: is that a joke? :-D 18:59 RealBadAngel no, not at all 18:59 PilzAdam sweetbomber, thats exactly what you can do in my nether mod ;-) 18:59 hmmmm everybody forgot about the alternative generateTerrain()s =/ 18:59 sweetbomber nice, got to try it 18:59 celeron55 just browse the "feature discussion" section on the forum, you'll have year's worth of ideas for nether there :D 18:59 RealBadAngel ofc most of ideas will be worth shit 18:59 hmmmm nether is supposed to occur at -4000 and aether is supposed to occur at 4000 19:00 celeron55 hmmmm: supposed to according to what? 19:00 hmmmm nether will be nothing more complicated than negative 3d noise, and the opposite with aether 19:00 RealBadAngel but surely there will pop up some good ones 19:00 hmmmm my original plans :/ 19:00 celeron55 4000 is ridiculous from a gameplay perspective 19:00 hmmmm remember, we decided against the alternative realms idea? 19:01 celeron55 more like 800 19:01 hmmmm err 19:01 hmmmm the intent was to have portals for this 19:01 hmmmm being able to dig down into it is just a neat side-effect 19:01 sweetbomber 4k would make that a nice challenge :) 19:01 celeron55 oh whatever; i just hope someone has a clear idea of what they are doing and by some magic chance it will also be good 19:01 RealBadAngel heh i wanted Portal name for inter server connections ;) 19:01 proller dig 4k not a big problem 19:01 sweetbomber loads of cobble need to be digged - clearly a proof of work 19:02 hmmmm having the alternative realms would require modifying practically all of the Map::getNode/getBlock-type functions 19:02 proller 4k tower - much harder 19:02 sweetbomber oh! and there is a good thing: after digging 4k for going to nether, the next step would be to spend those 4k nodes in building the tower, lol :) 19:02 hmmmm everybody thinks that digging seems to be the way to go 19:03 RealBadAngel possible way 19:03 hmmmm it's only possible because it's the easiest way to implement it 19:03 RealBadAngel hard one, but still working 19:03 hmmmm portals were intended from the start 19:04 celeron55 hmmmm: the original point of sweetbomber is that nether could be just an another kind of cave 19:04 PilzAdam well, the easiest way is just remove the mapgen part of my nether mod and use it 19:04 RealBadAngel imho digging your way to helll shall also be possible (and not eliminated) 19:04 hmmmm well perhaps so 19:04 hmmmm but i don't like it 19:04 hmmmm the nether should be negative 3d noise like in minecraft 19:05 RealBadAngel imagine stairways to hell, or going there with cart 19:05 RealBadAngel mc CANT do that 19:05 PilzAdam hmmmm, what will be under the nether? 19:05 RealBadAngel core 19:05 hmmmm more nether 19:05 RealBadAngel no 19:06 RealBadAngel gravity that will not allow player to move 19:06 celeron55 well, i think there could be much more different levels than only one nether 19:06 RealBadAngel too high 19:06 hmmmm you can't put a liquid underneath that or else it'll constantly try to transform and update the lighting, causing Server to become unresponsive 19:06 hmmmm so perhaps at the very bottom there's bedrock 19:06 RealBadAngel use physics to make the border 19:06 RealBadAngel instead of some stupid bedrock 19:06 hmmmm i'm trying to change as little as possible to other non-mapgen things 19:07 RealBadAngel make a gravity trap 19:07 PilzAdam hmmmm, you want a MC like nether; so thats maybe 100-200 nodes high; you want to have the full area under -4200 full of bedrock? 19:07 hmmmm pilzadam, no, just bedrock starting at -30000 or something 19:08 proller -30890 19:08 PilzAdam the MC nether is just one big cave 19:08 hmmmm well, the exact number at which map generation cuts off depends on the chunksize setting 19:08 PilzAdam do you want to have several of these caves? 19:08 hmmmm probably, yeah. 19:08 hmmmm we'll have different levels of nether 19:09 proller and increasing lava -30000 -> -30890 (like 100% lava at -30800) 19:09 sweetbomber well, on thing is sure, something must be done near the coordinates' overflow 19:10 PilzAdam I like how its currently: just content_ignore 19:10 sweetbomber i heard (i guess in the forum) something about bending the coord. system 19:10 hmmmm no idea about that 19:10 hmmmm no idea how it could even be done 19:10 hmmmm and obviously it can't be done on the y axis even if it were possible 19:10 sweetbomber and that would have a nice effect: digging a hole very low would take us to the sky! 19:11 celeron55 falling out from 31000 would be quite a choppy experience 19:11 hmmmm enough with the chatter... too much talk, not enough doing 19:11 PilzAdam assume one of the nether caves is 500 nodes high, that would make 52 caves from -4000 to -30000 19:11 sweetbomber you're right 19:11 hmmmm all these ideas flying around are worthless unless they're actually put into code 19:11 PilzAdam thats definetly not good 19:11 hmmmm let's first have the nether and then we'll decide on the fine details later 19:11 celeron55 hmmmm: their actual viability of being fun is also completely unknown 19:12 celeron55 (until tried) 19:12 hmmmm right 19:12 hmmmm well 19:12 PilzAdam we could also step away from the MC like nether and make it how I do it in my nether mod 19:12 hmmmm honestly nothing is much fun without mobs 19:12 PilzAdam just the normal cave system with netherrack that is really hard to break 19:12 hmmmm pilzadam, that's not very fun 19:12 PilzAdam have you tried it? 19:13 celeron55 someone get drunk or something and just put mobs into upstream 19:13 celeron55 i 19:13 celeron55 i'm starting to see that the only way 8D 19:13 hmmmm i haven't played minetest in about 6 months pilz 19:13 Jordach put simple mobs in master 19:13 hmmmm pilzadam rather 19:13 Jordach EVERYONE WILL BE HAPPY 19:13 hmmmm let's forget about the mobs right now 19:13 hmmmm let's just work on what we're currently working on 19:14 hmmmm getting too far ahead of things and it's distracting 19:14 celeron55 hmmmm: there are enough devs in here for one being able to focus on eg. getting mobs done while you work on whatever mapgen stuff you do 19:15 hmmmm decorations are useful for mob placement 19:15 celeron55 just don't attempt to try to understand everything that is going on 19:15 sweetbomber want to know my idea of mobs: if we had infinite computer resources they should not exist. They should just be bots of players, where some could have wool, or leather, etc... 19:15 sweetbomber and oc, could breed 19:15 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, i answered your post about flower being useless 19:17 sweetbomber hmmmm: returning to serious business: where can i find your biome-search code? 19:17 sweetbomber ill pick that first to try my idea 19:17 hmmmm BiomeDefManager::getBiome() 19:17 RealBadAngel what others think about moon flower and fluorescent dye in default game? 19:17 sweetbomber oh, its already commited, sorry...i couldve searched for it if i knew it 19:18 RealBadAngel hmmmm, celeron55 ? 19:19 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, see github 19:19 hmmmm realbadangel, i don't really have much of an opinion on it 19:19 hmmmm sorry 19:19 PilzAdam it basically bloats the minetest_game with useless stuff 19:20 PilzAdam if people like it then they can install the mod 19:20 PilzAdam there is no need to put this into the game 19:20 celeron55 RealBadAngel: i think it's quite a slim idea until proven otherwise by people building some actually interesting mechanic on it 19:20 RealBadAngel i have the code that uses it 19:20 Jordach celeron55, it could be used for glowing mese picksa 19:21 Jordach which are 2x as strong as a mese pick 19:21 RealBadAngel but for make it work i need the source 19:21 celeron55 well that 19:21 celeron55 +'s useless 19:21 celeron55 and if not useless, boring at least 19:21 PilzAdam Jordach, you cant make tools much more faster than the current diamond pick 19:21 Jordach PilzAdam, you can: instant 19:21 sweetbomber lol 19:21 RealBadAngel i wanted the flower to be the source of all glowing things 19:22 celeron55 since when has "glowing things" been interesting at all 8D 19:22 RealBadAngel so flower -> dye -> combine it with other thigs 19:22 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, we will maybe have glowstone from the nether 19:22 PilzAdam wich is much more original than a flower 19:22 RealBadAngel why the fuck you want the root pull to deliver all the possible uses of it?? 19:23 RealBadAngel fuck the glowstone 19:23 PilzAdam fuck the flower 19:23 RealBadAngel we are not mojang empleyees 19:23 sweetbomber err... 19:23 celeron55 :D 19:23 hmmmm #shit-that-belongs-in-minetest-delta 19:23 RealBadAngel i wont agree for glowstone at all 19:23 PilzAdam why do discussions with RealBadAngel always end like this? :-) 19:23 RealBadAngel because you are too minecrafty 19:23 celeron55 the minetest chaos development scheme (tm) 19:24 celeron55 i think the flower is better than glowstone 19:24 RealBadAngel we can do something different and you always go mc 19:24 celeron55 because minecraft 19:24 RealBadAngel thats why i get angry 19:24 celeron55 but really, why not eg. glow mushroom and put it only in caves 19:24 celeron55 or something remotely less random than a glowing flower 19:25 PilzAdam btw: Pilz == Mushroom in german, so I like the idea :-) 19:25 hmmmm in order for that glow flower to work right we need to improve lighting, seriously 19:25 RealBadAngel i made complete new dye system btw 19:25 celeron55 hmmmm: not really 19:25 hmmmm not really? 19:25 hmmmm it's completely dull 19:25 RealBadAngel and wanted to introduce it with parts 19:25 hmmmm it's hardly a light at all 19:25 RealBadAngel no cooking, but crafting 19:25 hmmmm if you want to make a light seem to be small, you need to have it very bright at the center and die out quickly 19:25 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, why not put the whole thing into one pull request? 19:25 RealBadAngel mortar + pestle item 19:25 celeron55 it aims at being a usable gameplay mechanic more than something realistic or particularly pretty 19:26 PilzAdam so we actually see what you plan 19:26 celeron55 and it's good at it 19:26 hmmmm w/e 19:26 hmmmm all that really needs to be figured out is unspreadLight(), and we'd be able to have light with a variable amount of spread 19:26 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, i cannot do such thing. it requires changes to lotsa mods. 19:27 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, so you want to introduce new way of producing things 19:27 RealBadAngel i wanted to make it step by step 19:27 RealBadAngel dyes 19:27 PilzAdam like MC brewing and enchanting 19:27 celeron55 really eg. dull lighting is just something on top of the underlying stuff; people all the time confuse the dullness of underlying mechanics with the dullness of look 19:27 RealBadAngel not all the things 19:27 celeron55 the mechanics don't get better by improving the looks 19:27 celeron55 and so doesn't the play experience; people will be just more disappointed 19:27 PilzAdam a basic element of MT and MC alpha + early beta was that there are only crafting and cooking 19:27 PilzAdam this limitation makes it so interesting and fun 19:28 RealBadAngel we dont know how to get something? lets cook it 19:28 RealBadAngel for christ sake 19:28 PilzAdam adding new things like brewing or what RBA wants just destroys this feeling 19:28 RealBadAngel this is not mc 19:28 RealBadAngel destroy mc feelin 19:28 RealBadAngel is what i want 19:28 PilzAdam I dont agree on bloating minetest_game with shiny new stuff 19:29 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, I see minetest as a fork of MC 19:29 Jordach PilzAdam, they werent complaining because they got decent updates worth playing 19:29 Jordach and paying for 19:29 RealBadAngel seriously? are you on mojang's pay list or what? 19:30 RealBadAngel you kill all the pulls that are not mc like 19:30 PilzAdam adding stuff to not be like MC is ridiculous 19:31 PilzAdam *with the goal to be 19:31 RealBadAngel adding stuff that is only mc like is more ridiculous 19:31 celeron55 what i suggest is this: release a short-lived game where people can test more of your game content stuff 19:31 celeron55 so that you can tell based on comments whether it is good or not as a whole 19:31 celeron55 then if it is, it can be merged upstream 19:31 celeron55 if not, then users are glad it wasn't merged 19:32 RealBadAngel https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/165 19:32 RealBadAngel :-) moonflower 19:32 RealBadAngel im makin now the other part, with dyes 19:32 RealBadAngel and the fluorescent dye of course 19:32 RealBadAngel RealBadAngel: can't wait to get this merged 19:32 celeron55 so did zeg9 play it? 19:32 PilzAdam celeron55, I fear that many people dont think enough to make such decissions 19:32 celeron55 PilzAdam: that's why you need to have a lot of people test it 19:33 celeron55 the problem with MT has always been that we have way too little game design experience to roll our own stuff 19:33 PilzAdam my experience is that everyone shouts "YESS!!!!" 19:33 celeron55 i included (altough these days i have learned a lot) 19:33 RealBadAngel and you on the opposite shout "NOOOOO" 19:34 RealBadAngel i also learned a bit so im not crying out loud to merge the changes 19:34 sweetbomber if you allow me to express my feelings, i think there should something like a long-term goal and audience 19:34 celeron55 so eg. here's something to read in order to know things game developers generally know: http://gamebalanceconcepts.wordpress.com/ 19:34 celeron55 8) 19:34 RealBadAngel i test the code for weeks before makin pull request 19:34 celeron55 (that's a 10 blog post series) 19:34 sweetbomber for example, do you think of making MT a game for which kind of people? 19:35 sweetbomber e.g. redstone in minecraft gave it a geek audience 19:35 sweetbomber where pvp, brewing and enchanting gave it a fps/rpg audience 19:35 celeron55 sweetbomber: there *definitely* should be a long-term goal and an audience; if i was in lead, i would force there to be one, but i have slipped to other projects 19:36 RealBadAngel we need them all 19:36 RealBadAngel its a sandbox 19:37 PilzAdam I think we cant really find a long term goal 19:37 PilzAdam there are so many different oppinions out there 19:37 PilzAdam everyone will just start to cry and shout at the others if his vision isnt accepted 19:38 PilzAdam we just had a too long time without a real goal 19:38 sweetbomber RealBadAngel: that would lead to a thing: something like real world. I am not disagreeing, it in fact leads to some interesting things, like doing real business inside MT (much like secondlife) 19:38 RealBadAngel sandbox means everything 19:38 celeron55 this describes MT's development currently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_by_committee 19:38 RealBadAngel even things we would like not to allow 19:39 RealBadAngel thats the freedom of it 19:39 celeron55 "all things" is a thing too; it is very true 19:39 PilzAdam e.g. if we would have made it clear that MT is a MC alpha clone, then many people who want to merge moon flowers wouldnt even came here 19:39 celeron55 as well as some things by themselves are things 19:39 sweetbomber but i think that goals must be chosen with some humility, and something like "everything" is awkward.. 19:40 RealBadAngel mt was inspired by mc 19:40 RealBadAngel but we are not limited to it 19:40 RealBadAngel theyre suffering atm from lack of ideas 19:40 celeron55 even if someone got a clear vision, it's quite hard to get MT out of the current design state 19:41 PilzAdam I personally like the idea to make minetest_game a sandbox for mods 19:41 PilzAdam this means not spamming the whole thing with more and more stuff 19:41 PilzAdam celeron55, thats what Im talking about 19:42 RealBadAngel game needs content not only changes to its engine 19:42 celeron55 i don't really know what to do about it, but i want people to understand it 19:42 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, we definetly do have enough ideas 19:42 celeron55 so they can grab at the chance if it arrives 19:42 PilzAdam they are just conflicting with each others 19:42 Jordach 1) Tell them to fuck off 19:42 RealBadAngel PilzAdam, your ideas, no offence, are too minecrafty 19:42 Jordach (forgot what i had in my head) 19:43 RealBadAngel all you do, leads to copy mc 19:43 PilzAdam what does "too minecrafty" mean? is it bad? why? 19:44 RealBadAngel we all have chosen celeron's project for a reason 19:44 sweetbomber well, ive to go. theatre at 21:30 19:44 celeron55 RealBadAngel: it is not, in no way, inherently a bad thing 19:44 sweetbomber bye guys 19:44 celeron55 RealBadAngel: it's only a bad thing if you decide it is a bad thing 19:44 RealBadAngel ofc its not bad to the bone 19:44 celeron55 RealBadAngel: some people agree with you, some not 19:44 celeron55 RealBadAngel: this is not single-dimensional like you think 19:45 RealBadAngel it isnt, right 19:45 PilzAdam I dont want that Minetest turns into a Anti-Minecraft project 19:46 RealBadAngel me neither 19:46 PilzAdam where we add moon flowers just to differ from minecrafts glowstone 19:46 celeron55 minecraft is supposed to build upon minecraft alpha; not run away from it or continue with the path MC took 19:46 celeron55 ... 19:46 celeron55 minetest is* 19:46 RealBadAngel you forced me to say so, in anger 19:46 RealBadAngel dont use it now please 19:47 RealBadAngel i just found it out an awesome looking content 19:47 RealBadAngel and logical source for needed content 19:47 RealBadAngel and i KNEW you will be against it 19:47 RealBadAngel because you are always against 19:48 celeron55 i'm not against it; i'm just worried what kind of a larger concept it is a part of 19:48 RealBadAngel celeron55, not as big as you think 19:48 celeron55 there needs to be a chain of things building towards something in the future, not a random sea of stuff on a blob 19:48 RealBadAngel just way to get glowing things and more sensible way to get dyes 19:49 celeron55 yes, so it's essentially not wanted 19:49 RealBadAngel but please notice i splitted it 19:49 celeron55 it's not bad by itself, but in this context merging it doesn't make sense 19:50 RealBadAngel flower is neutral 19:50 RealBadAngel dye is a needed content 19:50 celeron55 does someone want to hear my longest standing vision for minetest? 19:50 PilzAdam yes 19:50 RealBadAngel dye system i wanted to put on discussion 19:51 celeron55 it's kind of embarrassingly far from most recent development, but not necessarily contradictory 19:51 RealBadAngel thats why i havent made it one commit, and thx to it PA had a chance to call it useles 19:52 Jordach celeron55, sure 19:52 RealBadAngel celeron55, go on 19:56 RealBadAngel have you said so to stop us arguing? ;) 19:57 celeron55 i'm considering how to actually put it in words 19:57 RealBadAngel cmon. shoot 20:02 celeron55 what i wanted to do is build upon minecraft's dungeons in some kind of simplistic roguelike fashion with multi-layer dungeons, somehow sometimes making it necessary to build a smallish fortress to defend you from creatures crawling out of some dungeon 20:03 celeron55 it's pretty far from this yay-lets-put-chairs-in-houses thing 20:03 RealBadAngel as i mentioned before: sanbox 20:03 RealBadAngel *sandbox 20:04 RealBadAngel and we may want our fortresses to look good, our way 20:05 RealBadAngel those things doesnt mean conflict 20:05 celeron55 they mean distraction 20:06 celeron55 people like to focus on some thing 20:06 RealBadAngel let them allow to focus on what they want to 20:06 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, "sandbox" is not the solution for everything 20:06 RealBadAngel not force 20:06 RealBadAngel freedom of choice is the key 20:07 PilzAdam a game should give the player some things with limitation, not everything 20:07 RealBadAngel PA, we are developin a game that from definition shall bring player no limitations 20:08 PilzAdam limitation is the key why MC is so popular; the player is limited to cubes and has to build with it 20:08 RealBadAngel but can build ANYTHING 20:08 celeron55 people don't get happy by getting everything in unlimited fashion 20:08 celeron55 nowhere 20:08 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, no, players cant build circles 20:08 celeron55 not in real life, not in art, not in games 20:09 RealBadAngel mc like and thus mt are SO GOOD because its a new gender 20:09 RealBadAngel its not a game anylonger 20:09 RealBadAngel its a world that let you create 20:10 RealBadAngel without predefined targets, goals or whatever 20:10 celeron55 one can think it like that; but it doesn't get me interested at all so you need to find somebody else to make it 20:10 celeron55 that's the problem 20:10 RealBadAngel celeron55, i dont have to look 20:10 PilzAdam RealBadAngel, I dont see Minetest like this 20:11 RealBadAngel it already is so 20:11 PilzAdam if it would be like this then we could stop developing it now :-) 20:11 RealBadAngel hehe true 20:11 RealBadAngel its close to it then :) 20:12 PilzAdam what you mean is is that it has the goal to be like this 20:13 PilzAdam but this is not a good goal 20:13 PilzAdam and it wouldnt make a good game 20:13 RealBadAngel hold on 20:13 RealBadAngel we do have games system 20:13 celeron55 so RBA's goal really is to just dump anything and whatever somebody cares to create into it? 20:13 RealBadAngel no no 20:14 RealBadAngel i havent said so 20:14 celeron55 it could end up being something interesting, but for sure it'd be quite large 20:14 celeron55 we might need to have two distributions, one for that and one for something else 20:14 Jordach actually two games should be nice: one thats worked on by say, the forum community 20:14 Jordach and one by the core devs 20:15 RealBadAngel we tried already with common and minetest_game, partially crossing each other 20:15 PilzAdam "the forum community" isnt on person and doesnt have one goal 20:15 RealBadAngel but what about two DIFFERENT games? 20:16 celeron55 RealBadAngel: we already have such ones; they fare fairly well 20:16 celeron55 they're just not officially distributed 20:16 RealBadAngel may start at one point, but could go different ways 20:16 RealBadAngel so maybe lets start to do so? 20:16 RealBadAngel we wont be arguing then 20:16 celeron55 how should it be done 20:17 RealBadAngel under minetest, lets develop more games just 20:17 celeron55 put everything in one package for windows? how about linux distros? how do we make sure they package the relevant ones 20:17 kahrl celeron55: that's where sapier new main menu comes in, I'd say 20:17 kahrl sapier's* 20:17 celeron55 does it allow downloading games from the menu in the future? 20:18 kahrl not sure if that is planned but I'm sure it could be done 20:18 RealBadAngel PilzAdam can take care of current minetest_game 20:18 kahrl lets say if you start the game and it finds only the minimal game, it asks you to choose one of several games and it downloads it automatically 20:18 RealBadAngel i can take care of some technic one 20:19 celeron55 i think it would be awesome if we wouldn't need to care about distributing anything else on the website to users and distros than the engine, and it would just download stuff from some repository 20:19 RealBadAngel ofc. engine is separate thingy 20:20 RealBadAngel but it should allow to browse aviable content 20:20 celeron55 this is in line with the "spirit of 0.4", which is really what we tend to be following still, albeit maybe a bit too vaguely 20:21 celeron55 and it's confusing to think about because it's really not about a game, but about an underlying system 20:22 celeron55 also, this is the kind of programmer porn that one needs to be very careful about; it can sound good even if it really doesn't make any sense from the standpoint of the end result 20:23 RealBadAngel imho engine shall be developed in manner to allow everything, without goals or limitations 20:24 RealBadAngel games on the other hand, can be everything 20:24 kahrl of course it will continue to allow replacing the game, the question is how that capability will be represented 20:24 celeron55 allowing everything means requiring infinite resources 20:24 celeron55 which is unallowable 20:25 celeron55 so we are going to end up with issues trying to figure out what to put in the engine and what not 20:25 RealBadAngel well, slight limitations then :) 20:26 RealBadAngel into engine shall go tools 20:27 RealBadAngel if i. or some1, finds out that for mod to work good, needs something from the engine 20:27 RealBadAngel thats a good reason to update engine 20:27 RealBadAngel if it can be done without modyfing engine, it means engine works ok 20:28 RealBadAngel an example: hardcoded crafting ways 20:28 celeron55 okay so you want to make millimeter-scale microblocks with volumetric lighting and exact physics 20:29 celeron55 you know, we have to have a rule that makes that an immediate "nope" 20:29 RealBadAngel thats a slight limitation i talked before ;) 20:29 RealBadAngel ofc we wont allow unrealistic things 20:30 celeron55 but seriously, the engine development goals must be written down 20:30 RealBadAngel definitely 20:32 RealBadAngel and seriously too, can i have a copy of minetest_game in minetest project space to take care of, and being different than source? 20:33 RealBadAngel celeron55, you were timed out? 20:33 celeron55_ i feel i need to begin makin releases again because nobody else seems to understand they need to be made at a reasonably small interval 20:34 celeron55_ +g 20:34 RealBadAngel have you seen my question celeron55 ? 20:34 celeron55_ 0.4.6 is ridiculously old considering how bad it is 20:34 celeron55_ no 20:34 RealBadAngel and seriously too, can i have a copy of minetest_game in minetest project space to take care of, and being different than source? 20:35 RealBadAngel ^^ above 20:35 celeron55_ umm wat? 20:35 RealBadAngel i would like to run a different game 20:35 kahrl I'm in favor of releasing 0.4.7 soonish 20:35 celeron55_ the question does not make any sense 20:35 celeron55_ kahrl: i'm in favor of releasing 0.4.7 two months ago 20:36 celeron55_ this is ridiculous 20:36 RealBadAngel it does imho 20:36 RealBadAngel me and pa, and many have different ideas 20:37 kahrl well I think a problem was that nobody knew whether the scriptapi move was going to be merged before or after the release 20:37 kahrl but that is done now 20:37 hmmmm well now that it's done, we don't need to worry 20:37 RealBadAngel im not talkin bout common etc like we tried before 20:37 hmmmm perhaps right here is a good point to release 0.4.7 20:37 RealBadAngel agree 20:37 hmmmm nothing's been committed for about 5 days, right? 20:37 hmmmm there, that's almost a week of feature freeze 20:37 kahrl there are some pull requests on github that fix things broken by the scriptapi move 20:38 hmmmm i was afraid of that 20:38 RealBadAngel i have the code ready to pull 20:38 RealBadAngel but i think it can wait for next release 20:38 RealBadAngel i mean bumpmapping 20:38 celeron55_ okay, only fixes allowed then; throw in all the fixes and that's 0.4.7 then 20:39 hmmmm right 20:39 kahrl I'd have liked to have the new main menu in but it's much too unstable at the moment 20:39 hmmmm i need to stop screwing around and finish what i was working on so i can do more minetest 20:39 celeron55_ kahrl: that's a concern that should not exist 20:39 RealBadAngel better merge it into indev and try it for a few weeks 20:39 celeron55_ kahrl: releases should be common enough for nobody to think like that 20:40 kahrl well the commit I tried this morning just crashed on startup 20:40 hmmmm right, these are *patch* version levels we're releasing, not minor versions or anything 20:40 hmmmm so it's settled 20:40 hmmmm in 2 days, we'll mark it as 0.4.7 and release it 20:40 RealBadAngel i thought bumpmapping code was ready, then after i made it public i rewrote it a few times thx to reports 20:40 celeron55_ seriously, even having one 0.4.x per week won't be even close to too often 20:41 kahrl celeron55_: I think that's what daily builds are for 20:41 hmmmm celeron wants a rolling release 20:41 hmmmm i don't though 20:41 celeron55_ it depends on the amount of features put in of course 20:41 celeron55_ and fixes 20:41 RealBadAngel hmmmm, something in the middle i think 20:41 RealBadAngel we do have too many changes onboard already 20:41 hmmmm i also don't want to start pumping out new versions on a set date, that's ridiculous 20:42 kahrl I like having at least a week of feature freeze for most releases 20:42 hmmmm by the way, by "freeze" i mean we don't commit anything, but that's not what most other projects do 20:42 RealBadAngel like hmmm noticed 5 days are frozen already 20:43 RealBadAngel lets add weekend to it just 20:43 hmmmm they'd make a stable branch at that point when they think it's good 20:43 hmmmm the reason why we stop all activity is because honestly, nobody focuses on anything except upstream 20:43 celeron55_ well this is quite a small project really 20:44 kahrl a feature freeze is pointless if bug fixes can't be committed 20:44 celeron55_ it doesn't make much sense to wiggle with release candidate branches and backporting of stuff 20:44 kahrl or am I misunderstanding completely? 20:44 hmmmm erm 20:44 hmmmm you're misunderstanding, that's called a code freeze 20:45 hmmmm when i mean don't commit anything, i meant to say no commiting new features 20:45 RealBadAngel brb 20:45 hmmmm s/mean/say/ 20:46 kahrl ah ok I agree with that then 20:46 hmmmm make is such a pile of crap. 20:46 hmmmm ugh. 20:46 celeron55_ why do you think so 20:47 celeron55_ i think make is pretty good, altough making certain special things with it tends to be unintuitive 20:47 hmmmm if the whole "tabs and spaces have different meaning" thing isn't enough of a problem, then it's the amount of crypticness 20:47 hmmmm the amount of variance between BSD and GNU make 20:47 hmmmm everything is unintuitive 20:47 celeron55_ oh well that BSD/GNU thing might be a problem 20:48 celeron55_ i've never even tried to use BSD make 20:48 hmmmm ugh, it's like perl at some points 20:48 hmmmm SRCS = {$@%##SRCS:}$@#?/*"} 20:48 kahrl why not use cmake or something like that? I mean it's still cryptic but at least has the same syntax everywhere 20:48 hmmmm see, I've been considering that 20:49 hmmmm adopting cmake for my own projects 20:49 celeron55_ in smaller projects i tend to use gnu make everywhere 20:49 hmmmm i'd have to use something like autotools for projects that are likely to be cross-compiled onto some mobile device though 20:49 celeron55_ (which is, on linux and windows) 20:50 hmmmm oh yeah, there's also NMAKE :/ 20:50 celeron55_ cross-compiles are a pain for sure; cmake can sometimes be roughly equal to magic in such cases 20:50 kahrl mingw works well for small projects so no need to mess with nmake 20:50 celeron55_ yes i use mingw 20:50 hmmmm well nmake is pretty useless aside from where it's necessary (drivers) 20:51 hmmmm it's just funny how there's yet another flavor of make 20:52 celeron55_ everyone thinks they're more important than others and that's where it ends up 20:52 celeron55_ it happens in everythin 20:52 celeron55_ +g 20:53 celeron55_ then everyone just hates each other 8) 20:53 kahrl NIH syndrome, or embrace, extend and extinguish 20:53 Exio rewrite minetest hmmmm 20:54 hmmmm i say we nuke it and start all over. 20:54 hmmmm in java. 20:54 Exio or better, C#! 20:54 kahrl whitespace. you said you like significant tabs 20:54 celeron55_ let's make it look like skyrim and be a p2p MMO 20:55 hmmmm it'll be an AAA game and targeted at the "hardcore gaming" crowd, get some endorsements from mtn dew, razer, and have a soundtrack by Skrillez 20:55 hmmmm s/skrillez/skrillex/ 20:56 celeron55_ by the way, at this last minute, i declare the troll language of the day to be X++ 20:56 celeron55_ it's made by microsoft and it's like C#, except not exactly 20:56 celeron55_ 8D 20:57 celeron55_ (it's 23:57 here now) 20:57 Exio utc+? 20:57 Exio 1, 2? 20:57 celeron55_ 2+DST 20:57 hmmmm probably utc+5? 20:58 celeron55_ =3 20:58 celeron55_ "X++ is part of the MorphX development platform that you use to construct accounting and business management systems" 20:58 hmmmm i remember time zones based off of est 20:58 celeron55_ this probably means it's prefect for gamedev 20:58 kahrl we need timezones in minetest 20:58 RealBadAngel back 20:58 Anchakor hi all :) 20:58 kahrl anyone who uses /time would have to remember them. It would be totally realistic and awesome! 20:59 Anchakor kahrl found his way back? nice 20:59 RealBadAngel kahrl: google for fiatlux.py 20:59 celeron55_ yes and how about pooping 20:59 RealBadAngel i ported it into engine 21:00 kahrl celeron55_: well irrlicht doesn't support olfactory devices yet so it wouldn't be the full experience 21:00 hmmmm but, seriously 21:01 celeron55_ kahrl: maybe it could be shown two times as big on the screen to compensate 21:01 hmmmm i'd say the reason why I hate something cryptic like make but I love C at the same time is because make is merely a means to an end, you don't really care to spend too much time with make 21:01 celeron55_ are you saying C is some kind of a god 21:01 Anchakor I see MT got relicensed under LGPL, nice 21:01 hmmmm C is amazing 21:01 hmmmm C is the light and the truth 21:02 Anchakor though it isn't library 21:02 celeron55_ by the way, has someone read about rust here? to me it seems quite awesome as long as the infrastructure around it gets more mature: http://www.rust-lang.org/ 21:02 celeron55_ it fixes practically all of the issues i know of C and C++ 21:02 hmmmm i still never figured out why LGPL was chosen 21:02 celeron55_ ...except compile time 21:03 celeron55_ (partly) 21:03 celeron55_ (compared to golang) 21:04 Anchakor hmmmm: I suggested MPL: http://c55.me/minetest2/wiki/doku.php?id=dev:license_change 21:04 RealBadAngel so what about me running second game (with technical twist) ? 21:05 RealBadAngel i wont yell at PA and would expect the same from him ;) 21:06 RealBadAngel we are thinkin in totally different manners, so the games will be different 21:07 RealBadAngel you all know that some of us are older 21:07 kahrl RealBadAngel: why does it have to be under github.com/minetest/? 21:07 celeron55_ RealBadAngel: there's the issue there that modders will hate you for making stuff that makes it impossible to make some mods compatible with both it and minetest_game 21:08 celeron55_ but i guess haters can hate 21:08 RealBadAngel ofc they will 21:08 RealBadAngel its their job to do so 21:08 RealBadAngel but look at the current state 21:09 RealBadAngel im the developer with ideas i would like to force 21:09 RealBadAngel but PA says no 21:09 RealBadAngel gimme just another room 21:09 RealBadAngel you know im skilled enough 21:10 celeron55_ i don't see any reason for it to be under minetest 21:10 RealBadAngel i can give you some 21:10 RealBadAngel redstone - mesecons 21:10 RealBadAngel enough? 21:10 celeron55_ wtf? 21:11 RealBadAngel core of minecraft success 21:11 kahrl people will ask why it is under minetest and some already popular games like minitest and realtest not 21:11 celeron55_ the only reason to put things under github.com/minetest is if they are intended to be developed by the core team 21:12 celeron55_ if not, then there is no reason to and they won't be 21:12 RealBadAngel im a dev, but cant push to mintetest_game 21:13 RealBadAngel im representing older part of the community 21:13 RealBadAngel im 40 yrs old 21:13 Anchakor ageism! 21:13 RealBadAngel i like other things than most of you 21:14 RealBadAngel lol, just the truth 21:14 RealBadAngel thats why we have those stupid argues from time to time 21:15 RealBadAngel vanessa, mauvebic, me, and some others who left alredy 21:15 RealBadAngel we need our space 21:15 kahrl I don't think there would be no arguments if we only allowed people of age 25 to talk on IRC ;) 21:15 RealBadAngel hahaha 21:15 RealBadAngel :P 21:16 iqualfragile actualy i think that an agelimit at about 14 would be a good idea 21:16 hmmmm [05:15 PM] I don't think there would be no arguments if we only allowed people of age 25 to talk on IRC ;) 21:16 hmmmm there wouldn't be much talking at all - what is the probability that there are two people exactly 25 years old on the same irc channel at the same time? 21:16 kahrl good point :) 21:16 RealBadAngel i cant see leaving messages 21:17 RealBadAngel all 25's here? 21:17 hmmmm i'm 21 21:18 RealBadAngel so, again, whats wrong in TWO different games... 21:18 * kahrl is of the wrong age but will continue to talk until hit by the banhammer 21:20 RealBadAngel also run by TWO different groups of ppl 21:20 RealBadAngel i mention it because last attempt was run by the very same person 21:20 kahrl seeing as PilzAdam is pretty much the only one committing to minetest_game right now 21:20 RealBadAngel why? 21:20 kahrl I don't think there would be much interest in running a second game by the other devs 21:21 RealBadAngel because we all know our commits will be rejected 21:21 RealBadAngel simple fuckin flower is the evidence 21:21 kahrl so I'd guess you'd be the only one who commits so you can put the repository under your own github account as well 21:22 RealBadAngel no 21:22 RealBadAngel youre completely wrong 21:22 RealBadAngel there are lots of ppl that would like to commit 21:22 RealBadAngel but they know it makes no sense 21:22 celeron55_ so are those people in this list? https://github.com/minetest?tab=members 21:23 RealBadAngel many of them left already 21:23 celeron55_ what's your point then? 21:23 celeron55_ you can cry all you want, but it won't make any difference 21:23 kahrl you can give other people push access to your github repos as well 21:24 RealBadAngel i could 21:24 RealBadAngel but thats not the point 21:25 RealBadAngel celeron55_, you would call VanessaE an outsider? mauvebic? cornernote? 21:25 Anchakor what is wrong with running your own repo? 21:25 celeron55_ no? what the fuck man? 21:26 Kray wtf :D 21:26 RealBadAngel i just named folks of the similar age 21:26 Kray all developers having push access to the same repo pretty badly cripples the idea of git 21:26 hmmmm mauvebic is old? 21:26 RealBadAngel and notice we all have different ideas than 20's 21:27 RealBadAngel dont call us old :P 21:27 RealBadAngel middle age :P 21:28 RealBadAngel i just want a space for us 21:28 RealBadAngel not somwhere outside 21:29 celeron55_ hint: you can make organizations on github by yourself too 21:29 RealBadAngel it is not funny at all celeron 21:30 celeron55_ if you want to have a clear team to work on your game, that's an obvious solution 21:30 RealBadAngel we all are workin on the very same game 21:30 celeron55_ also, i'm not trying to be funny at all 21:30 hmmmm i think yall are taking this way too seriously 21:30 RealBadAngel im trying to find a solution for us all 21:31 hmmmm i haven't really been listening closely, but the problem is that you want to have your own minetest game? 21:31 hmmmm and you want it to be an official one 21:31 RealBadAngel you think its funny to code something and knew in advance that PA will reject it? 21:31 hmmmm hmmmm 21:32 hmmmm PA has his own ideas of how minetest_game ought to be, i'll admit 21:32 RealBadAngel and it is not only my opinion 21:32 hmmmm some of the changes are things that i wouldn't do myself 21:32 Anchakor you want your own MT game, but still be distributed with MT and in its git repo? 21:32 RealBadAngel many folks left the community because of him and his attitude 21:32 celeron55_ minetest's git repo has nothing to with distributing minetest 21:32 hmmmm that is true 21:33 RealBadAngel engine is the engine 21:33 RealBadAngel i say allow multiple official games 21:33 jin_xi idk, but i find the whole idea of a 'default game' quite unnecessary. it obviously leads to much discussion, friction and frustration 21:33 celeron55_ if somebody didn't notice, this turned into some ridiculous drama just after there was a solution to everything, once RBA somehow forgot it 21:33 celeron55_ jin_xi: i do see it, yes 21:34 hmmmm most of this has to do with the idea that the engine is necessarily paired to some certain game by default (well, that game is actually minimal, but whatever) 21:34 iqualfragile jin_xi: a default game is important to have for new players 21:34 celeron55_ jin_xi: but we have no solid means of distributing games for the engine without putting them in by default, so this is really an issue 21:34 iqualfragile as a starting point 21:34 RealBadAngel celeron55_, i havent forgot anythin 21:35 hmmmm if we went with my idea of advertising minetest as its own game and then saying "oh, yeah, you play this using the minetest voxel engine, which you can get here" that might help 21:35 RealBadAngel even game was splitted into parts before 21:35 celeron55_ so how about focusing all efforts on making the engine able to pull games from some central repo (for newbies) and just simply not distribute it ever anymore with any preinstalled game? 21:35 jin_xi i think stuff like minitest and such should be promoted and only have something like 'made with minetest' links on their sites. 21:35 iqualfragile about the direction of minetest_game: i have allready said that but what about publishing an document which clearly states which aims minetest_games wants to reach 21:35 kahrl not the renaming discussion again :) 21:35 kahrl it went nowhere 21:35 hmmmm celeron, yeah, that's something that most people would like 21:35 RealBadAngel there was only one person who decided what can be merged 21:35 iqualfragile i think that would remove a lot of the friction 21:35 RealBadAngel and that was the problem 21:35 celeron55_ if not that way, then the other way is what jin_xi now said 21:35 celeron55_ the "minetest as library" way 21:36 hmmmm what if minetest_game had a different community as minetest 21:36 celeron55_ iqualfragile: who will do it? everyone knows it would help, but there is no authority on it 21:36 kahrl celeron55_: the repo thing sounds like a good goal for 0.4.8 21:36 iqualfragile says celeron55_… 21:36 RealBadAngel tip: rename it to pilzadams_game 21:36 hmmmm i do agree though, only one person with with their territory marked over minetest_game isn't very good 21:37 hmmmm we all have our own territory 21:37 celeron55_ iqualfragile: i don't have any idea what i want from it 21:37 iqualfragile it seems like PA has 21:37 iqualfragile what about forcing him to publish such an document 21:37 hmmmm like mine for example are the mapgens, biome manager, emerge manager, and what not 21:37 iqualfragile it would be a lot easier to discuss about it then 21:37 hmmmm but changes to it aren't mostly subjective and user visible 21:37 hmmmm that's where the problem is 21:37 celeron55_ PilzAdam: write down your plans of minetest_game for the next 2 years and publish it 21:38 RealBadAngel PilzAdam has taken minetest_game, and if somebody cant see it is either blind or stupid 21:38 hmmmm the actual problem is how people decide what becomes what in minetest_game 21:38 celeron55_ PilzAdam: how does that sound like? 8) 21:38 kahrl I wonder what my territory is 21:38 iqualfragile about the central repository for games: i could add that into mmdb quite easily 21:38 hmmmm i feel like a dog pissing on source files, haha :( 21:38 iqualfragile but i would rather wait and see how the modmanaging part works out 21:38 celeron55_ i see kahrl's mission as making minetest 0.4 actually happen somehow like it was originally planned as 21:38 hmmmm err, skunk rather 21:38 * RealBadAngel usually wanders in mapblock_mesh.cpp 21:38 iqualfragile celeron55_: PilzAdam is afk 21:39 hmmmm so there's what we do 21:39 Anchakor seems like a good idea to not have any official minetest game (except minimal) and distribute with like 5 most popular MT games 21:40 Anchakor reduces community friction 21:40 hmmmm either clearly define some democratic way of getting things in minetest_game, OR we add more separation between engine and game 21:40 celeron55_ Anchakor: that's what i am more and more leaning towards 21:40 iqualfragile i am clearly agains havin none or multiple default games 21:40 celeron55_ Anchakor: or alternatively distribute it with nothing and let the game/mod manager do it 21:40 iqualfragile as it will lead to a lot of confusion for newbs 21:40 RealBadAngel which is bad 21:40 hmmmm iqualfragile, it's better to have multiple rather than none 21:41 celeron55_ the only thing that is newbiew-friendly is "minetest as library" 21:41 celeron55_ but it's not very 0.4y 21:41 RealBadAngel a few maintained and official games are better 21:41 hmmmm or at least a "you don't have to read anything" kind of way to set it up if it comes with none 21:41 iqualfragile this is allways an issue in open-source projects: some people are unhappy with an decision and say: make it an option 21:41 Anchakor iqualfragile: it's kinda like the good old Half-Life mods, if there is a clear way how to launch one, there is no problem 21:41 iqualfragile and in the end there are 119919 options and nobody has any idea whats happening anymore 21:42 RealBadAngel notice you gonna get two solid (and opposite) maintainers 21:42 RealBadAngel me and Pa 21:42 Anchakor iqualfragile: you are using a strawman argument 21:42 iqualfragile i am? 21:42 kahrl iqualfragile: that's why I'm in favor of a clear, unconfusing screen that shows up when you first run the client and lets you choose a game to download 21:42 hmmmm we can put CURL to better use this way 21:42 iqualfragile i would rather distribute one game with minetest 21:43 iqualfragile one and only one 21:43 Anchakor why? 21:43 iqualfragile there should be a clear definition of that games goals 21:43 RealBadAngel sandbox 21:43 RealBadAngel we cant 21:43 iqualfragile and then people should have an easy to use and working mechanism of adding new gamemodes 21:43 celeron55_ iqualfragile: your thing can only happen if there is a leader with a clear plan 21:43 celeron55_ i am not willing to work as such for MT anymore 21:43 celeron55_ it's too painful 21:44 iqualfragile no need for a single leader 21:44 celeron55_ then you're responsible for figuring out how to do it 21:44 iqualfragile it would be enought if people would try communicating more 21:44 celeron55_ no it's not 21:44 RealBadAngel thats a price and valor of community project 21:44 celeron55_ people have so different goals it doesn't work 21:45 kahrl I would love to see the dungeon crawler game though :) 21:45 iqualfragile they do? im not shure about that, i just think that people are not communictating well and that increases the percived delta 21:45 Anchakor iqualfragile: you single game is minetest_minimal, happy? :) 21:45 RealBadAngel kahrl, why not? 21:45 celeron55_ iqualfragile: if you read the full discussion today, you can see it clearly between RBA and PilzAdam 21:45 jin_xi i thought about doing a nethack/mt mashup but have not yet implemented anything... 21:45 celeron55_ iqualfragile: their plans for the game are like 90 degrees apart 21:46 iqualfragile Anchakor: no, the single game needs to be playable, its for new players of minetest 21:46 RealBadAngel PA runs something similar to mc, i would like to run enhanced one, with technical twist 21:46 RealBadAngel you can go dungeons 21:46 iqualfragile stop 21:46 iqualfragile write that down into an easy accessible document, please 21:47 iqualfragile perhaps a wiki page 21:47 iqualfragile inclue wich subsystems you would want to add 21:47 iqualfragile i am shure that we will find some kind of acceptable solution 21:47 iqualfragile *sure 21:47 RealBadAngel in fact theres nothing to do 21:47 RealBadAngel just make new folder 21:48 RealBadAngel and make real differnt games with time 21:48 iqualfragile creating a folder and throwing in some mods is not how you make a gamemode 21:48 RealBadAngel time 21:48 Anchakor iqualfragile: I guess you are the naive kind of a guy who thinks people can always work together only if they tried harder to understand each other 21:48 iqualfragile a gamemode needs to be more then just its mods, in my oppinion at least 21:49 RealBadAngel of course 21:49 RealBadAngel but time will effect with changes 21:49 RealBadAngel that one would accept and other reject 21:49 RealBadAngel sum of this will produce differnt game 21:50 Anchakor but you can't work together on going different directions... minetest engine allows many game modes, trying to be impartial to the game projects is good 21:50 iqualfragile well, then lets define some criteria for a good game 21:50 jin_xi huh. terminology is not helping us here. cant mod a non existing games... so we should call them components maybe... or plugins even lol. and dont get me started on gamemode, specially in the context of making them more different from each other 21:50 RealBadAngel we will need the same engine still 21:51 RealBadAngel but will differ in usage of it 21:51 kahrl sapier: I added some test cases for the new path functions (only tested in linux so far). Here's all my changes as a diff: https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5688237 21:51 iqualfragile sapier: whats the status of the modmanager? 21:51 RealBadAngel im using many parts of code wrote by PilzAdam 21:51 kahrl the diff also has the new isMinetestPath etc. 21:52 RealBadAngel shit we are all using Minetest :) 21:52 Anchakor iqualfragile: if at start you are preseted with 5 game mode choices in order of the community popularity vote, that gives new players a good idea what is the "main" MT game without it being set in stone and undemocratic 21:52 sapier << reading backlock .... lots of comments since I left 21:52 Anchakor presented* 21:52 sapier iqualfragile local mode is completed 21:52 sapier download only has a button :-) 21:53 iqualfragile when do you estimate that part will be finished? 21:53 celeron55_ i really would want to put good game mode developers at the front line of development, everything else just following their demands 21:54 celeron55_ if anyone can adjust their work to work like that, please do 21:54 celeron55_ it'll please everyone in the long run 21:54 RealBadAngel we can get our niches, sure 21:55 kahrl sapier: in case it got obscured by the thousands of comments it got decided to make a feature freeze and release 0.4.7 after this weekend 21:55 celeron55_ the problem is, who is good; nobody here really has any merits 21:55 celeron55_ someone like the dwarves developer could be counted as such 21:55 sapier Jordach NOT EVERYONE will be happy with simplemobs ... imho their stupid and buggy ;-P 21:57 RealBadAngel celeron55_, what i proposed was not a total anarchy in creating many default games. but propably two of them to let OLDER CODERS to code 21:57 kahrl so yeah I guess I'll go through the pull requests and check those that claim to be bugfixes 21:57 celeron55_ RealBadAngel: stop that already; nobody is interested 21:57 kahrl also the bug reports 21:58 RealBadAngel nobody is interested? 21:58 proller PilzAdam, who dislike finite_liquid except you? 21:58 iqualfragile kahrl: good idea 21:58 kahrl https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/237 21:58 celeron55_ proller: people dislike it because it doesn't work too well and noobs enable it without knowing 21:58 iqualfragile i would apreciate it if devs would care more about the pull requests 21:59 kahrl #237 seems badly implemented according to PA's comment so I will leave it 21:59 iqualfragile proller: i dislike finite liquids, it does not work for me 22:00 kahrl also needs a huge rebase probably 22:00 kahrl https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/296 bug fix for huge map and add-on of -xmin -xmax -zmin -zmax param (block unit (x 16 cubes)) 22:00 RealBadAngel well, if nobody is interested then :P 22:01 iqualfragile kahrl: https://github.com/cyisfor/minetest/commit/45afcec615c35e2bacf3abc7457c791281d9342b#L0R1281 22:01 sapier I guess yesterday silent day is completely fixed now :-) 22:01 proller iqualfragile, does not work what? 22:01 sapier thx kahrl I found it :-) 22:01 iqualfragile on my computer 22:02 sapier proller I don't dislike finite liquid but I think it's far from finished too 22:03 sapier kahrl so formspec mainmenu is for 0.4.8? I guess this gives oportunity to integrate moddb too? 22:03 kahrl iqualfragile: well I haven't seen the bug it claims to fix, the pause menu does not consume more CPU time than the normal game 22:04 kahrl sapier: yep 22:04 iqualfragile kahrl: its just formulated badly 22:04 sapier still I'd prefere integration as soon as possible once 0.4.7 is released to find the bugs ... I guess scriptapi separation will have some errors after 0.4.7 release due to it's late merge 22:04 iqualfragile it would just be smarter to reduce the fps when you are looking at an menue anyways 22:05 sapier did I just miss result of release strategy or wasn't there any ? 22:05 RealBadAngel it will stay the same 22:05 kahrl iqualfragile: guess it makes sense on old hardware though just calling device->sleep(const) isn't the way to do it 22:06 RealBadAngel what pa likes or not 22:06 kahrl anyway this is not a critical fix so I'll leave for after 0.4.7 22:06 RealBadAngel with c55 hidin behind pa's back 22:07 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/741 needs to be merged for 0.4.7 22:08 kahrl sapier: it does 22:08 iqualfragile kahrl: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/744 would be nice to have 22:08 kahrl iqualfragile: that's a feature; it's feature freeze now 22:08 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/739 this one too 22:08 iqualfragile i would rather consider the spawining buggy 22:08 sapier https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/740 i guess this one wouldn't be bad too 22:09 celeron55_ stuff can be merged only if they fix critical bugs or fix bugs caused by recent changes 22:09 kahrl did you check the code of #739 and #740 if they are correct? 22:10 iqualfragile it stops people from spawning midair, so its a bugfix :p 22:10 kahrl iqualfragile: has a good chance of introducing new bugs so it'll have to wait in my opinion 22:10 sapier celeron those commits fix scriptapi separation bugs (except last one) that one fixes a generic bug 22:10 iqualfragile well, ok 22:11 sapier I need to reboot my mouse got frozen ... I hate this bug 22:12 kahrl back to going through them back to front 22:13 kahrl https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/296 not caused by anything recent 22:14 kahrl https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/324 same, also looks controversial 22:14 sapier did anyone notice the #pull links in irclog is still pointing to https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/issues 22:14 RealBadAngel there was a pull to remove registered craft recipes 22:15 RealBadAngel imho very needed one 22:15 sapier tba this is a feature addon I don't think this should be added after feature freeze 22:15 sapier -t+r 22:15 kahrl https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/409 Fix glitch ladders -- not sure what this does exactly but sounds non critical 22:16 celeron55_ it's also somewhat controversial 22:17 sapier kahrl #740 fixes issues where minetest would crash if those cases happened atm 22:17 sapier #739 fixes a bug I added when adding lua function traces 22:18 kahrl https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/426 this seems to change the liquid update code a lot so probably not suitable for a feature freeze 22:18 sapier but I didn't test that code still it's small and looks correct 22:18 RealBadAngel anyways, celeron55_ im goin to start separate game project, whenever you like it or not. im too old for youngster to dictate what i can do. i will publish links for the project and let community decide. 22:19 RealBadAngel i think it ends the discussion 22:19 kahrl RealBadAngel, that's what he suggested from the beginning 8) 22:19 RealBadAngel so done 22:19 kahrl sapier: I'll test #739-#741 and merge them if they seem ok 22:20 sapier I'd be sad about you leaving community rba 22:20 kahrl after I go through these other pulls 22:20 kahrl sapier, I didn't understand that comment as leaving the community? 22:20 sapier no? 22:21 sapier ok so I wont be sad 22:21 sapier :-) 22:21 kahrl just building an additional gamemode 22:21 sapier too many ppl left due to stupid issues the last year 22:22 ShadowNinja Feature freeze now? How long? /topic? 22:22 kahrl https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/439 needs a rebase 22:22 RealBadAngel kahrl, but that wasnt the real point, i just showed with this once again that we cannot push anything into minetest_game 22:22 sapier until 0.4.7 release shadowninja 22:22 kahrl ShadowNinja: 48 hours 22:22 RealBadAngel sadly i was right 22:23 RealBadAngel but shit, there are many folders in the world 22:23 sapier yes RBA I guess we need improved support for multiple gamemodes 22:23 ShadowNinja Hmmm, sounds too short... 22:23 kahrl ShadowNinja: as hmmmm said there were 5 days without any activity 22:24 sapier there even was a day without comments in minetest-dev ;-) 22:24 kahrl if a really critical bug is found the duration can be extended 22:25 sapier any volonteers for maintaining a stable branch adding critical fixes 2 weeks after release? 22:26 kahrl sapier: it'd be easier to just make another release 22:26 sapier but usually we don't do that ;-) have a look at 0.4.6 there are some critical bugs in 22:27 kahrl yeah that was bad 22:27 sapier but it's only a suggestion 22:28 sapier e.g. releasing 0.4.7 and about two weeks later 0.4.7.1 containing only bugfixes for critical problems missed 22:28 celeron55_ nobody should have any need to think like sapier now said 22:28 celeron55_ a release should always be made if bad bugs are fixed 22:28 celeron55_ and no, that's fucking horrible 22:29 celeron55_ there are already three version levels, the last one is "patch" level which is the one that can be arbitrarily incremented 22:29 sapier I totaly agree with you celeron that it should be ... but most time it isn't 22:29 celeron55_ well then make it not be 22:29 celeron55_ i mean, be 22:30 sapier I don't see how we can do this without having ppl test our versions ... maybe by releasing a 0.4.7 rc1 about a week prior release? 22:30 celeron55_ just release 0.4.8 immediately after if 0.4.7 turns out to be crap 22:30 celeron55_ it's not like we'd run out of integers... 22:30 RealBadAngel most stable code turns out to be unstable when goes public 22:31 sapier my experience is that doesn't happen but maybe I'll be prooven wrong in future ;-) 22:31 RealBadAngel abusers are able to do things simple coders cannot imagine ;) 22:31 celeron55_ sapier: say that to those who released 0.4.6 22:32 sapier I assumed those ppl are in here :-) 22:36 kahrl most of the other pull requests are enhancements... 22:36 kahrl next fix: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/670 22:37 kahrl "Fix build on big endian architectures" did anyone test this / look at it? 22:38 kahrl they didn't provide the link celeron asked for :| 22:41 celeron55_ it's stupid because experienced programmers don't care to explain their doings, and noobs don't know what they're doing so they can't explain it, and in the end both look the same 22:42 kahrl I think a better solution would be to use TestBigEndian.cmake in order to not rely on compiler specific things 22:42 sapier 670 only changes #if to #ifdef 22:44 kahrl oh and they change irrUString.h which should ideally be left untouched 22:44 kahrl in case somebody wants to update that file from upstream in the future 22:46 kahrl hmm apparently TestBigEndian.cmake does not handle cross compilation 22:52 kahrl putting #670 on hold for now 22:53 kahrl https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/706 HUD Bugfix -- is actually an enhancement 22:56 kahrl https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/730 modified print format codes to use platform specific 64-bit codes (mingw) 22:57 kahrl should probably be done but are inttypes.h and the PRIu64 etc. macros available on all supported platforms? 22:58 sapier afaik inttypes.h is standard ... but not sure if all of it's content is standard too 22:59 kahrl perhaps the places that use %llu should use ostringstream instead of sprintf 23:11 PilzAdam kahrl, re: fix glitch ladders: last time I mentioned it here people said they want it to stay, although I prefer to fix it 23:12 PilzAdam I cant remember who "people" are, though 23:12 PilzAdam IIRC Jordach 23:18 kahrl it's a controversial thing in any case 23:19 kahrl not suitably for merge during a feature freeze 23:19 kahrl suitable* 23:19 PilzAdam btw: whoever will bump the version, do not forget to update lua-api.txt too 23:20 PilzAdam and maybe update the link at the top of it too 23:23 kahrl any objections? https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5688612 23:24 kahrl this fixes #730 without relying on the existence of certain macros in inttypes.h 23:24 kahrl which might be fine to rely on but I'm not sure 23:25 kahrl hold on this is missing a percent 23:26 sapier std::ios_base::binary? why? (I don't know if it's right or wrong i just don't understand it) 23:26 PilzAdam I really dont know much about strings in c++, but when I look at this then I dont want to learn it :-) 23:27 kahrl sapier: it's used almost everywhere that ostringstream is used and doesn't really hurt 23:27 sapier then this is a wrong conlusion pilzadam strings in c++ are quite powerfull so it's usage is a little bit more difficult than char* ;-) 23:27 kahrl makes the output of the stringstream more predictable in any case 23:28 Exio sapier: it is called "i already know brainfuck, i don't want to learn whitespace" 23:28 PilzAdam sapier, Im used to the java.lang.String class 23:29 sapier I guess it's somehow similar but I don't use java regularly 23:29 Exio lol PilzAdam 23:30 kahrl with the missing percent sign: https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5688630 23:31 PilzAdam its good as long as it works and you dont change the ouput 23:32 PilzAdam does this "std::setprecision()" have any effect outside of the string? 23:32 kahrl only if you append to the same ostringstream afterwards 23:33 kahrl which doesn't happen (the scope is closed a few lines below) 23:33 kahrl I changed a tiny thing in the output 23:33 kahrl "drawtime=" is now "drawtime = " 23:33 kahrl for symmetry with the other variables 23:42 kahrl sapier: are you OK with https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/742 being merged into upstream? 23:43 kahrl it will cause rebase conflicts with next_gen_main_menu but they will be easy to fix 23:43 sapier yes add it I'll fix the conflicts 23:44 kahrl ok anyone else any objections (also to https://gist.github.com/kahrl/5688630) 23:45 hmmmm huh? what's the point of that last one 23:45 Exio fixing warnings 23:45 hmmmm ah 23:46 kahrl hmmmm: mingw's (sn)printf doesn't support %llu 23:46 hmmmm that's a real shame 23:46 kahrl needs annoying compatibility macros instead which I'm not sure exist everywhere 23:46 hmmmm they are standard for POSIX systems 23:46 kahrl mingw needs %I64u 23:49 kahrl I'll merge the gist then and then #742 and then I'll look at #739-#741 23:55 Exio why is #562 won't fix? 23:57 sapier at least scriptapi separation added some changes to mutexes 23:58 Exio kk 23:58 sapier so system wide most likely would break build 23:58 sapier i didin't even know about that issue until now