| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:12 |
|
troller joined #minetest-dev |
| 00:44 |
kahrl |
should the placement prediction of wallmounted nodes set an appropriate param2? |
| 00:46 |
Exio |
i think |
| 00:46 |
VanessaE |
I would think so. |
| 01:21 |
kahrl |
server.cpp:2987 |
| 01:21 |
kahrl |
shouldn't the block of pointed_pos_under be sent too? |
| 01:25 |
kahrl |
scenario: you place something at a block boundary, and the under node has buildable_to == true |
| 01:47 |
kahrl |
oh man placing torches is so much less laggy now :D |
| 01:47 |
kahrl |
at least in singleplayer where I tested |
| 02:02 |
kahrl |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/687 |
| 02:14 |
hmmmm |
it really seems like the client needs to regenerate a mesh every 5 seconds |
| 02:15 |
hmmmm |
i should probably put some effort into optimizing that |
| 02:16 |
kahrl |
regenerate due to ABMs doing stuff, liquids flowing or just spontaneously? |
| 02:16 |
hmmmm |
just everything |
| 02:16 |
hmmmm |
it's like anything that happens requires a mesh regeneration |
| 02:17 |
hmmmm |
like if i scratch my head that's going to require a mesh regeneration too |
| 02:17 |
VanessaE |
hah\ |
| 02:18 |
hmmmm |
did you ever look into using multiple mesh generation threads? i'm not very familiar with that area of minetest at all, does it need to lock anything big that would make multithreading useless? |
| 02:19 |
kahrl |
the mesh generator isn't supposed to access anything outside of MeshMakeData |
| 02:19 |
kahrl |
except getting textures and shaders from their respective sources |
| 02:19 |
kahrl |
so it should be possible |
| 02:20 |
kahrl |
of course it accesses nodedef but that needs no lock |
| 02:21 |
hmmmm |
a faster mesh maker, or more of them, would reduce the bottleneck of loading blocks in singleplayer |
| 02:27 |
VanessaE |
holy crap, the new alpha feature works with nodeboxes too |
| 02:28 |
VanessaE |
in case you give two shits about a somewhat-off-topic comment and screenshot: http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/screenshot_1230069880.png |
| 02:31 |
VanessaE |
(execept that 100% opaque isn't quite 100%) |
| 02:37 |
hmmmm |
ah i do see what you mean |
| 02:37 |
hmmmm |
are you using shaders there? |
| 02:37 |
VanessaE |
yep. |
| 02:37 |
hmmmm |
hrmm |
| 02:37 |
hmmmm |
i'll check it out later |
| 02:37 |
VanessaE |
thought you might be interested in this little experiment :) |
| 02:42 |
hmmmm |
i'm sure the problem is that the fog calculation is supposed to work on linear color and i just need to do that before i convert back to srgb |
| 02:42 |
VanessaE |
might be. I was just screwing around a bit to see what I could come up with |
| 02:43 |
VanessaE |
*turns off fog* .. nope, the wood is still slightly see-through |
| 02:45 |
hmmmm |
turning off fog wouldn't fix this |
| 02:45 |
VanessaE |
oh ok |
| 02:46 |
VanessaE |
well it's not that important. Just thought I'd mention the successful part :) |
| 02:55 |
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dj joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:01 |
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dexter0 joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:20 |
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ssieb joined #minetest-dev |
| 03:20 |
hmmmm |
i think i accidentally switched something off and now large caves go vertically downward but the result is awesome looking |
| 03:22 |
hmmmm |
i sorta wish we had some sort of brightness auto-adjust so caves don't need to be pitch black |
| 03:22 |
hmmmm |
either that, or a light source with a larger spread |
| 03:33 |
VanessaE |
naw, keep 'em dark |
| 03:36 |
ShadowNinja |
I would love higher ranges, even light_max is a little low |
| 04:06 |
ShadowNinja |
Hmmm, this will probably conflict will my pull, but I will update mine if someone merges this, does this seem OK? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/687 |
| 04:07 |
ShadowNinja |
(hmmm, not the user btw, although I sort of also mean him) |
| 04:10 |
ShadowNinja |
Also, this can probably be closed now: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/100 |
| 04:34 |
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kaeza1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 04:36 |
kahrl |
ShadowNinja: I could merge your pull request into mine, would that make sense? |
| 05:31 |
hmmmm |
mmmm.. |
| 05:31 |
hmmmm |
this is tough |
| 05:33 |
hmmmm |
now that i have a heightmap, i simply look up the height when limiting the cave route Y |
| 05:34 |
hmmmm |
except caves can, and do often spawn in the bordering blocks |
| 05:34 |
hmmmm |
which i don't have height information on without explicitly calculating |
| 05:34 |
hmmmm |
wonder how horrible it would be if i were to assume the ground level is water level |
| 05:53 |
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Stcrafts joined #minetest-dev |
| 05:57 |
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Deivan joined #minetest-dev |
| 06:36 |
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kaeza1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 07:51 |
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darkrose joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:18 |
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darkrose joined #minetest-dev |
| 08:25 |
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| 08:48 |
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| 09:05 |
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| 09:20 |
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| 09:37 |
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kaeza joined #minetest-dev |
| 09:41 |
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| 10:00 |
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| 10:03 |
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| 10:13 |
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| 10:34 |
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| 10:41 |
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serengeor joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:44 |
RealBadAngel |
why i was removed from core devs list? |
| 10:47 |
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PilzAdam joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:48 |
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kaeza joined #minetest-dev |
| 10:48 |
Exio |
RealBadAngel: what list? |
| 10:49 |
Exio |
(that as: i just see you in the in-game list) |
| 10:51 |
RealBadAngel |
im talkin about commit rights |
| 10:51 |
RealBadAngel |
why i was removed from there? |
| 10:53 |
Exio |
oh - no idea really |
| 11:00 |
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kaeza1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:09 |
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kaeza1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:20 |
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iqualfragile joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:20 |
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salamanderrake joined #minetest-dev |
| 11:32 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/156 <- no, minetest_game only exists for legacy reasons and new features arent added there |
| 11:34 |
VanessaE |
so how does someone whose mod depends on, say, default, also get flowers? |
| 11:37 |
PilzAdam |
flowers arent in default, so depending on default if you want flowers is wrong |
| 11:37 |
VanessaE |
I know, I'm just saying generally - when a modder depends on default, they do so because they're used to it being part of minetest_game. So do they have to expressly switch to 'build' or 'survival' or something? |
| 11:40 |
PilzAdam |
they have to depend on flowers if they need flowers, so they can only run in games that include flowers |
| 11:40 |
VanessaE |
so the answer is "yes" then. |
| 11:42 |
RealBadAngel |
so you mean, minetest_game is obsolete, yes? |
| 11:50 |
VanessaE |
really, if it's obsolete, why bother keeping it around? it just confuses new users (and a few veterans too) |
| 11:50 |
Exio |
it is legacy |
| 11:50 |
Exio |
people wanted a game what didn't change |
| 11:51 |
Exio |
here the people has one, the common and old minetest_game |
| 11:52 |
RealBadAngel |
it leads to curious situations, that mods tryin to depend on basic stuff like flowers wont be able run in with minetest game |
| 11:52 |
RealBadAngel |
in fact minetest_game wont be able to run very little mods soon |
| 11:52 |
RealBadAngel |
*will be |
| 11:54 |
RealBadAngel |
this is not good when game modes will restrict what kind of mods can be run there |
| 11:55 |
RealBadAngel |
build and survival shall have same exact content, but one shall be craeative world, the other one survival with mobs in the future |
| 11:56 |
RealBadAngel |
but there cant be such things like separate content |
| 11:56 |
Exio |
what about people waiting/liking having farms in creative? |
| 11:56 |
Exio |
the mods what will use mobs will depend of survival then |
| 11:56 |
RealBadAngel |
exio: same content for all games |
| 11:56 |
RealBadAngel |
i said that alreadt |
| 11:57 |
RealBadAngel |
splitting content made technic not able to be used with minetest_game already |
| 11:57 |
RealBadAngel |
this is getting ridiculous |
| 11:59 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, are you trying to force modders to drop dependency of anythin included in games? or made them providing flowers again if in current game there are no flowers for example? |
| 12:01 |
RealBadAngel |
also same applies to screwdriver. tool designed for players to easily handle 6d facedir nodes |
| 12:02 |
RealBadAngel |
your politics lead to situation that despite its in commons, folks are not able to use it |
| 12:02 |
RealBadAngel |
and there have to be mods copying that code to bring it back |
| 12:03 |
RealBadAngel |
so whats the point including it at all? |
| 12:03 |
RealBadAngel |
i demand of removal my screwdriver code from common |
| 12:03 |
RealBadAngel |
it will return to technic modpack |
| 12:05 |
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Taoki joined #minetest-dev |
| 12:16 |
thexyz |
> that mods tryin to depend on basic stuff like flowers wont be able run in with minetest game |
| 12:17 |
thexyz |
how come? |
| 12:17 |
RealBadAngel |
because flowers are not added to minetest game |
| 12:18 |
RealBadAngel |
so, technic cannot run in this mode unless it provides own copy of flowers, which is nonsense |
| 12:18 |
thexyz |
i still don't get it |
| 12:18 |
thexyz |
if user doesn't have required the game will gently tell him/her |
| 12:19 |
thexyz |
so he/she goes to forum and downloads flowers |
| 12:19 |
RealBadAngel |
whats the point downloading flowers if theyre already there but in different folder,huh? |
| 12:20 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam is splitting content between games |
| 12:20 |
RealBadAngel |
i made framed glass and he wanted it to be aviable only in build |
| 12:20 |
thexyz |
well, then he or she may go to that different folder and copy that mod from there |
| 12:20 |
RealBadAngel |
so i refused to use it at all |
| 12:21 |
RealBadAngel |
also screwdriver wont stay in commons too |
| 12:22 |
RealBadAngel |
this creates just mess, when content is splitted between games |
| 12:22 |
RealBadAngel |
i wont be writing mods that will have to check whats is supported by PilzAdam and whats not |
| 12:25 |
thexyz |
wait |
| 12:25 |
thexyz |
how come you'll have to check "whats is supported by PilzAdam and whats not"? |
| 12:25 |
thexyz |
you just depend on "flowers" when you need flowers |
| 12:25 |
RealBadAngel |
not only, i wrote screwdriver as tool for handling nodes easily |
| 12:25 |
VanessaE |
thexyz: which makes it impossible to use the mod with that dependency on anything but the build and survival games |
| 12:25 |
thexyz |
making that mess called "default" was a huge mistake i think |
| 12:25 |
VanessaE |
(or a custom game, as I use) |
| 12:25 |
thexyz |
VanessaE: why is it impossible? |
| 12:26 |
RealBadAngel |
and i have to include it again for folks want to play with other game modes |
| 12:26 |
RealBadAngel |
also calinou has included copy of it |
| 12:26 |
VanessaE |
thexyz: because minetest_game, being the only other standard-issue game, doesn't have flowers (via common)at all - it was deliberately excluded from it |
| 12:26 |
thexyz |
VanessaE: why can't you download it? |
| 12:26 |
thexyz |
"flowers" mod |
| 12:27 |
RealBadAngel |
again. why download if its here?? |
| 12:27 |
VanessaE |
thexyz: I certainly can - but what about your average user who barely knows how to download a mod at all? |
| 12:27 |
thexyz |
isn't that how dependencies are supposed to work? |
| 12:27 |
VanessaE |
you really want to tell them to modify the standard-issue game content |
| 12:27 |
VanessaE |
? |
| 12:27 |
thexyz |
> barely knows how to download a mod |
| 12:27 |
thexyz |
how'd he got "the mod with that dependency" then? |
| 12:27 |
thexyz |
VanessaE: I didn't say that |
| 12:27 |
VanessaE |
thexyz: it comes with minetest "common". |
| 12:27 |
RealBadAngel |
thexyz, current way is PilzAdam enablin or disabling content |
| 12:28 |
thexyz |
there is no need to "modify the standard-issue game content" |
| 12:28 |
thexyz |
you just download mod called "flowers" |
| 12:28 |
thexyz |
if you don't have it |
| 12:28 |
thexyz |
same for other dependencies |
| 12:28 |
RealBadAngel |
following his vision of creative and survival |
| 12:28 |
thexyz |
VanessaE: so? |
| 12:28 |
* VanessaE |
shrugs |
| 12:28 |
thexyz |
well, you can enable it in the game config as well |
| 12:29 |
RealBadAngel |
explain player why the duck he have to download mod that he already has on the disk... |
| 12:29 |
RealBadAngel |
and why author has to maintain two versions of it, one included and one other for separate downloads |
| 12:29 |
VanessaE |
maybe what's needed is a way for a third-party mod to depend on and "pull in" something from common, the way a game such as survival does. |
| 12:30 |
VanessaE |
this would solve the issue neatly. |
| 12:32 |
kaeza |
related? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/599 |
| 12:33 |
VanessaE |
kaeza: similar, yeah |
| 12:33 |
RealBadAngel |
thexyz, http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=86277#p86277 this is the mess im talkin about |
| 12:33 |
RealBadAngel |
please read a few posts starting here |
| 12:34 |
thexyz |
RealBadAngel: so? |
| 12:35 |
thexyz |
the guy is unable to install "common" modpack |
| 12:35 |
RealBadAngel |
there will be more such "flowers" |
| 12:36 |
thexyz |
RealBadAngel: okay, he doesn't have to, he can as well enable it in the game config |
| 12:36 |
RealBadAngel |
you still dont get the point, configs, separate download etc |
| 12:37 |
thexyz |
yes, i still don't get it |
| 12:37 |
RealBadAngel |
this all leads to game will be unplayable for less experienced users or kids |
| 12:37 |
thexyz |
as i see it, you want to include everything everywhere |
| 12:37 |
RealBadAngel |
no |
| 12:37 |
thexyz |
because "users are stupid" or something |
| 12:37 |
thexyz |
so stupid they're unable to download a single file and unzip it |
| 12:38 |
thexyz |
or edit a single text document |
| 12:38 |
thexyz |
no? |
| 12:38 |
RealBadAngel |
kids wont be able to do that |
| 12:39 |
RealBadAngel |
but thats not the point. it makes modders life complicated |
| 12:39 |
thexyz |
what does? |
| 12:39 |
thexyz |
the thing that "kids wont be able to do that"? |
| 12:40 |
RealBadAngel |
edit configs, solve deps etc, but as i said thats not my point really, just a thought |
| 12:41 |
RealBadAngel |
point is i need to do fancy gimmicks to get technic working with different content provided by default games |
| 12:41 |
RealBadAngel |
hell i have to reinclude even my own code |
| 12:42 |
RealBadAngel |
because PA decided screwdriver is not for survival |
| 12:43 |
thexyz |
(okay, let's say I got that one wrong and retire) |
| 12:44 |
kaeza |
ehm... then how are we supposed to turn the stairsplus/moreblocks nodes? |
| 12:45 |
VanessaE |
magic, of course. |
| 12:46 |
RealBadAngel |
use the force, Luke, use the force :P |
| 12:48 |
thexyz |
kaeza: enable screwdriver in your game.conf |
| 12:49 |
kaeza |
thexyz, how if I'm running survival? |
| 12:49 |
kaeza |
that's exacly RBA's point |
| 12:49 |
kaeza |
IMHO It's understandable that things like the bones (the version with inv transfer), mobs, hunger, etc, would be left off of creative (build) |
| 12:50 |
kaeza |
but things like screwdriver and the framed glass is nonsense |
| 12:50 |
RealBadAngel |
but not the content |
| 12:50 |
VanessaE |
I think the point being made here is that the actual content - tools, blocks, etc - that is available in one game should be available in all standard games. Only the actual active gameplay should change. |
| 12:51 |
RealBadAngel |
like survival - damage on, no creative, fly, noclip, fast aviable, mobs etc |
| 12:52 |
thexyz |
kaeza: enable screwdriver in your game.conf |
| 12:52 |
kaeza |
thexyz, how if I'm running survival? |
| 12:52 |
RealBadAngel |
build: creative on, no damage, no mobs |
| 12:52 |
VanessaE |
and that minetest_game is now considered "dead". |
| 12:52 |
kaeza |
RBA's point is that screwdriver is not in common |
| 12:53 |
VanessaE |
it's in common, just not enabled in survival. |
| 12:53 |
kaeza |
err... that you can't add anything to mt_game |
| 12:53 |
kaeza |
and what VanessaE said |
| 12:53 |
kaeza |
thexyz, build, and survival (and possibly minetest_game) should be games that run out of the box |
| 12:54 |
thexyz |
meh |
| 12:54 |
thexyz |
they do |
| 12:54 |
thexyz |
if you need something that they don't include |
| 12:54 |
RealBadAngel |
folks will want to build in survival also, but earned, collected, farmed or dug resources against all odss |
| 12:54 |
thexyz |
you install it/enable it |
| 12:54 |
kaeza |
sheesh |
| 12:54 |
RealBadAngel |
theres no point in disabling content for survival game |
| 12:55 |
thexyz |
there is |
| 12:56 |
thexyz |
PilzAdam thought "screwdriver" doesn't belong to survival hence he disabled it |
| 12:56 |
thexyz |
you don't think so |
| 12:57 |
RealBadAngel |
what about framed glass? |
| 12:57 |
thexyz |
but your point is "noobs won't be able to enable it" |
| 12:57 |
kaeza |
thexyz, the framed glass is the new "hot" feature... do I (as a user) have to copy from another ("standard-issue") game because someone thought it was bad for another "standard-issue" game? |
| 12:57 |
thexyz |
which is terribly wrong, as I think |
| 12:58 |
kaeza |
VanessaE and RealBadAngel clearly made the point: you don't disable content; only gameplay elements |
| 12:58 |
kaeza |
and ultimately, why are we bugging xyz with such things? shouldn't we bug PA? :P |
| 12:59 |
thexyz |
I disagree with this point; to start with, what's the difference between "content" and "gameplay elements"? |
| 12:59 |
VanessaE |
maybe because thexyz piped up? ;) |
| 12:59 |
RealBadAngel |
thexyz, thx to PilzAdam who wanted it only in build, framed glass in not part of any standard game. its separate mod |
| 12:59 |
thexyz |
so? |
| 12:59 |
RealBadAngel |
just pointin results of such politic |
| 12:59 |
VanessaE |
thexyz: you don't have to fight and kill and so forth to keep your brick house in good order in creative, but in survival you might hvae to do all of that just to build a little cobblestone shack |
| 13:00 |
thexyz |
RealBadAngel: can you link this mod to me? |
| 13:00 |
RealBadAngel |
hold on |
| 13:01 |
PilzAdam |
<RealBadAngel> build and survival shall have same exact content, but one shall be craeative world, the other one survival with mobs in the future |
| 13:01 |
PilzAdam |
lol |
| 13:01 |
RealBadAngel |
https://github.com/RealBadAngel/technic/tree/indev/framedglass |
| 13:01 |
PilzAdam |
you want us to have 3 games with the same content? |
| 13:01 |
PilzAdam |
whats the point in having 3 games then? |
| 13:01 |
RealBadAngel |
read what we are talkin about |
| 13:02 |
RealBadAngel |
about THE POINT |
| 13:02 |
RealBadAngel |
3? |
| 13:02 |
RealBadAngel |
since when? you made minetest_game already trashed |
| 13:02 |
kaeza |
PilzAdam, bones is not the same in build and survival :) |
| 13:02 |
PilzAdam |
not every mod runs in every game |
| 13:02 |
thexyz |
> the framed glass is the new "hot" feature... |
| 13:02 |
PilzAdam |
thats intentional |
| 13:02 |
thexyz |
how's that crazy simple mod is the new hot feature? |
| 13:02 |
kaeza |
thexyz, new drawtype? |
| 13:03 |
RealBadAngel |
thexyz, http://i.imgur.com/5d6sNvO.jpg |
| 13:03 |
thexyz |
oh, I missed that part |
| 13:04 |
RealBadAngel |
this is this usage of this crazy simple code |
| 13:04 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, it is not our goal to run every mod in every game |
| 13:05 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, your vision of games are just weird |
| 13:05 |
RealBadAngel |
and i cannot agree |
| 13:05 |
RealBadAngel |
so please do remove screwdriver from common |
| 13:05 |
RealBadAngel |
i demand it |
| 13:06 |
PilzAdam |
no, screwdriver needs to be in build for moreblocks to work in it |
| 13:06 |
RealBadAngel |
moreblocks already are including its own copy of it |
| 13:06 |
RealBadAngel |
if you have missed it |
| 13:06 |
PilzAdam |
really? why does it that if its in common? |
| 13:06 |
RealBadAngel |
technic is also including it again |
| 13:06 |
VanessaE |
RealBadAngel: only because the default screwdriver had a 32px texture (that didn't look like 16px) |
| 13:07 |
RealBadAngel |
32px texture because mode numbers are overlayed |
| 13:07 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, isnt technic going to be a game? |
| 13:07 |
RealBadAngel |
it is |
| 13:07 |
RealBadAngel |
and it will fix all your inventions |
| 13:07 |
RealBadAngel |
including groups |
| 13:07 |
PilzAdam |
then it can use the screwdriver mod from common |
| 13:08 |
RealBadAngel |
no i wont be detecting and reincluding my own code |
| 13:08 |
RealBadAngel |
which by now me and calinou have to do |
| 13:09 |
PilzAdam |
you are missing the point of common, then |
| 13:09 |
RealBadAngel |
nvm |
| 13:09 |
RealBadAngel |
i want my screwdriver back |
| 13:10 |
RealBadAngel |
i wont let you decide where and when i can use it |
| 13:10 |
RealBadAngel |
also i wont let you decide on any of my code |
| 13:11 |
thexyz |
meh, what the fuck |
| 13:11 |
PilzAdam |
1) you can decide when you choose the game 2) people can use screwdriver as a mod for survival if they want to |
| 13:11 |
PilzAdam |
(they ruin point of this game then, though) |
| 13:12 |
RealBadAngel |
you think folks cannot build in survival? |
| 13:12 |
RealBadAngel |
rotfl |
| 13:12 |
kaeza |
^ |
| 13:12 |
VanessaE |
exactky. |
| 13:12 |
VanessaE |
exactly, too. |
| 13:12 |
RealBadAngel |
the game is about to collect resources, in a hard way |
| 13:12 |
RealBadAngel |
not using creative sandbox |
| 13:12 |
VanessaE |
go to redcrab's server, that's purely survival and people have built some really nice stuff there. |
| 13:12 |
RealBadAngel |
and build with them |
| 13:13 |
VanessaE |
and yet, it has such things as travelnet, homedecor, moreores/blocks, etc. |
| 13:13 |
RealBadAngel |
that is this game all about |
| 13:13 |
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| 13:14 |
RealBadAngel |
and yet you are trying to tell ppl what blocks they may use, what tools |
| 13:14 |
PilzAdam |
yes, thats what game creators do |
| 13:14 |
RealBadAngel |
but youre simply wrong |
| 13:15 |
RealBadAngel |
good ive been taken rights, i wont need anymore to argue with you |
| 13:15 |
VanessaE |
if a game creator doesn't listen to his users, the game he creates will eventually cease to be used. |
| 13:15 |
RealBadAngel |
consider this as a last time |
| 13:15 |
RealBadAngel |
imho, you are bringing more harm to the game than good |
| 13:16 |
kaeza |
PilzAdam, am I forced to create a new game if I want the framed glass? |
| 13:16 |
PilzAdam |
kaeza, no, use technic game, it has framed glass |
| 13:16 |
VanessaE |
I hope technic doesn't become a game, then it'll fuck up my "game" used on my server. |
| 13:16 |
RealBadAngel |
only thing only interesting me why i dont have commit rights anymore. |
| 13:17 |
kaeza |
so, I want to use technic and build |
| 13:17 |
PilzAdam |
since RealBadAngel doesnt want it to be added to the build game |
| 13:17 |
RealBadAngel |
i just want to know the answer |
| 13:17 |
RealBadAngel |
before i leave this channel |
| 13:19 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, only celeron55 and thexyz have the rights to do that |
| 13:20 |
RealBadAngel |
nvm, i dont really need to know it. |
| 13:20 |
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| 13:20 |
VanessaE |
I am, however, curious. |
| 13:21 |
* PilzAdam |
too |
| 13:23 |
kaeza |
PilzAdam, then what is the point in adding content to default games in the first place? |
| 13:23 |
PilzAdam |
that question doesnt make sense |
| 13:23 |
kaeza |
it does make sense |
| 13:24 |
PilzAdam |
explain |
| 13:25 |
kaeza |
if people need to install new mods for handling stuff like stairsplus nodes, then you may as well only provide "default" |
| 13:25 |
kaeza |
*install new mods separately |
| 13:25 |
PilzAdam |
you see the default game(s) only as a platform to run mods? |
| 13:26 |
kaeza |
nope, I mean, if you add the screwdriver to just build, then people need to install new mods if they want it for survival |
| 13:26 |
kaeza |
whether they have to download or copy from local folder |
| 13:27 |
PilzAdam |
the moreblocks mod just goes against the idea behind the survival game |
| 13:27 |
VanessaE |
how |
| 13:27 |
VanessaE |
? |
| 13:27 |
kaeza |
now THAT makes no sense |
| 13:27 |
PilzAdam |
so I see no need to include mods into it to support it |
| 13:28 |
PilzAdam |
the main idea of survival is not building but surviving in a hostile world |
| 13:28 |
PilzAdam |
and moreblocks only focuses on building |
| 13:28 |
kaeza |
and does that have anything to do with content? |
| 13:28 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: um, most people who play in survival mode do some kind of building,. |
| 13:29 |
VanessaE |
many of those structures are quite nice, even beautiful, for the media anyway |
| 13:29 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, yes, for this kind of building the default mod is enough |
| 13:29 |
VanessaE |
I believe I said it before, and I'll say it again: splitting the games the way that was done was a stupid idea. |
| 13:29 |
PilzAdam |
building is also part of the game, but its not as important as in the build game (obviously) |
| 13:30 |
VanessaE |
it should have just been one single game, with a checkbox in the world "Configure" dialog to decide whether to enable survival elements or not. |
| 13:30 |
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| 13:31 |
VanessaE |
(e.g. like the "Creative Mode" checkbox now, but taken a few steps further and made world-specific. |
| 13:33 |
Exio |
getting resources for building is more funny than using the resources directly - imo |
| 13:34 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, so whats the difference to chosing "build" or "survival" at the beginning? (like we curently have) |
| 13:34 |
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| 13:35 |
iqualfragile |
why does minetest suddenly depend on libz.so? |
| 13:35 |
kaeza |
iqualfragile, libpng depends on libz |
| 13:35 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: because each of those two "games" leaves out elements that people might find useful. At least if it were a checkbox, more thought would have to go into what is or is not included in a given mode. |
| 13:36 |
kaeza |
iqualfragile, thus MT depended on libz since PNG support was added (probably from the beginning) |
| 13:36 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: it's one thing to leave MOBs out from creative. It's a different issue entirely to leave out basic tools and nodes. |
| 13:36 |
VanessaE |
(from survival, etc) |
| 13:37 |
PilzAdam |
so you basically dont like the idea of not including nodes/tools from build into survival? |
| 13:37 |
VanessaE |
basically, yeah. |
| 13:38 |
VanessaE |
what can be built with, traded, etc. in one game should be usable in the other |
| 13:38 |
kaeza |
exactly |
| 13:38 |
VanessaE |
the whole point of survival was to introduce a bunch of shit that will kill you |
| 13:38 |
VanessaE |
not to leave out stuff that's genuinely useful. |
| 13:39 |
hmmmm |
zlib support was needed since mapblocks were compressed |
| 13:39 |
VanessaE |
otherwise, why even bother to include so much as one single node that isn't found in minimal and that isn't also directly related to the act of fighting for survival?? |
| 13:39 |
VanessaE |
-? |
| 13:39 |
hmmmm |
it's included as part of base in nearly all operating systems, why complain about it? |
| 13:44 |
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| 13:45 |
VanessaE |
bbl |
| 13:46 |
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| 13:46 |
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| 13:46 |
VanessaE |
for the logs: Someone needs to answer RBA's question of why he no longer has commit access to the Minetest repositories. Considering what he's done for the engine and the community, I believe he has earned at least the courtesy of an answer. |
| 13:47 |
VanessaE |
oyut -> |
| 13:47 |
VanessaE |
out, too. -> |
| 13:47 |
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| 13:47 |
hmmmm |
was he removed, or did heconceal his membership on the member page |
| 14:01 |
thexyz |
> <+RealBadAnge> | only thing only interesting me why i dont have commit rights anymore. |
| 14:12 |
sfan5 |
who hosts servers.minetest.net? |
| 14:13 |
thexyz |
i do |
| 14:39 |
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| 15:07 |
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| 15:24 |
celeron55 |
a lot of drama i see |
| 15:26 |
celeron55 |
it seems i forgot to add RBA back to the contributors after i freaked out of RBA's incompatible change and wanted to make sure he doesn't break anything while i fix it |
| 15:27 |
hmmmm |
adding new things to the end of enumerations or whatever is a detail that should probably be noted somewhere |
| 15:28 |
celeron55 |
that does not apply to all enumerators, only to those that are serialized somewhere as-is |
| 15:28 |
celeron55 |
so i guess it should be noted in a comment next to such enums |
| 15:29 |
PilzAdam |
maybe use #define instead of enums for such things? |
| 15:29 |
kaeza |
that carries another problem |
| 15:29 |
hmmmm |
there's nothing wrong with enums if you're just not stupid about them |
| 15:30 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: then someone can easily accidentally add a #define with the same value |
| 15:30 |
celeron55 |
or some random value |
| 15:30 |
celeron55 |
there's no workarounds to stupidity 8) except maybe Java |
| 15:30 |
kaeza |
and soon you'll lose track of the "highest value" |
| 15:35 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: it seems there are more like four than three groups of people; there's (this is actually obvious and we should have known it) the people who actually want the exact kind of development as we had before the game split |
| 15:35 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: oddly enough, those are the people who complained before the split too 8) |
| 15:36 |
celeron55 |
but anyway |
| 15:37 |
celeron55 |
do you think the current direction won't have much problems in the long run? (in the short run, i see a lot of compaints that are due to change) |
| 15:37 |
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| 15:37 |
celeron55 |
(because people alway complain about change, no matter what) |
| 15:37 |
celeron55 |
+s |
| 15:37 |
Calinou |
the same people want change |
| 15:37 |
Calinou |
:> |
| 15:38 |
celeron55 |
basically my thoughts currently are "compainers gonna complain" |
| 15:38 |
celeron55 |
... |
| 15:38 |
celeron55 |
complainers* |
| 15:38 |
celeron55 |
i blame the keyboard |
| 15:39 |
celeron55 |
i mean, we could have a fourth "official" game that would aim for just stuffing everything in |
| 15:39 |
PilzAdam |
there are people who see the default game as a platform for mods |
| 15:39 |
celeron55 |
or we could do that in minetest_game |
| 15:39 |
PilzAdam |
and there are people who want to throw everything in |
| 15:40 |
PilzAdam |
yea, I thought maybe make minetest_game just include everything from common |
| 15:40 |
celeron55 |
but it appears that in order to have a platform in mods, they need everything to be thrown in because of dependencies (because they think their users are too stupid to figure it out themselves) |
| 15:41 |
celeron55 |
i guess the least relevant group after all are those who want minetest_game to stay the same |
| 15:42 |
celeron55 |
so basically, if we did that, then some of the people who want minetest_game to be a "platform for mods" will complain about things being added to it |
| 15:42 |
celeron55 |
but then we can say "but you need the additions for your dependencies" |
| 15:42 |
celeron55 |
but that's not really correct |
| 15:43 |
celeron55 |
because *their* users might be wise enough to manage the dependencies properly, while now it was geared towards those who don't want to manage dependencies |
| 15:43 |
celeron55 |
one option would be to make a system for automatically grabbing depencies from common |
| 15:44 |
celeron55 |
dependencies* |
| 15:44 |
PilzAdam |
that would screw up games |
| 15:44 |
celeron55 |
it has the problem that if people use the same name for different versions of a mod, it will break horribly |
| 15:45 |
celeron55 |
and yes, it would make the addition or removal of a mod actually add or remove even tens of mods |
| 15:45 |
celeron55 |
which has uncontrollable effects |
| 15:45 |
celeron55 |
so there are no best solutions here, only all kinds of compromises |
| 15:46 |
celeron55 |
adding a poll on the forums won't help either, because most people don't understand all the implications of this choice |
| 15:48 |
celeron55 |
for this, a proposal following rarkenin's (whoever he was on this channel) proposal system proposal could work best |
| 15:49 |
celeron55 |
http://dev.minetest.net/User:Rarkenin/Proposal_System |
| 15:51 |
celeron55 |
are there people here who would discuss the proposal of adding all common mods to minetest_game in the manner proposed in the proposal system proposal? |
| 15:56 |
hmmmm |
aghk |
| 15:56 |
hmmmm |
the cave code is so hard to work with |
| 15:57 |
hmmmm |
i am having trouble even keeping them underground |
| 16:02 |
hmmmm |
cutting off tunnels based on absolute routepoint y position is something that i didn't want to end up doing, but it seems to produce satisfactory results |
| 16:15 |
hmmmm |
and every once in a while, i'll have a large cave go vertically downward and cut through terrain |
| 16:15 |
hmmmm |
such sinkholes are already really cool looking underwater |
| 16:17 |
PilzAdam |
vertically caves are cool and quite challenging to go down |
| 16:17 |
hmmmm |
not if they're flooded with water |
| 16:18 |
hmmmm |
what is your opinion on sponges? |
| 16:28 |
Exio |
hmmmm: vertical caves "not underground"? |
| 16:28 |
Exio |
wouldn't that make nice-looking terrain? |
| 17:41 |
hmmmm |
everything is nice in moderation |
| 17:42 |
hmmmm |
the caves already pop up occasionally, but i can make that happen more often by not cancelling if the routepoint is above ground |
| 17:43 |
hmmmm |
what i was talking about in particular were vertical large caves |
| 17:45 |
Calinou |
she said, PilzAdam |
| 17:47 |
troller |
sponges must be in base |
| 17:47 |
PilzAdam |
what sponges? |
| 17:48 |
troller |
http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=4642 |
| 17:48 |
hmmmm |
to suck up surrounding liquids in a 5x5x5 radius |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
before you go and say "it's not realistic", consider that infinite liquids aren't realistic in the first place |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
i believe proller also had an "iron sponge" |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
maybe this would suck up lava |
| 17:49 |
hmmmm |
and the regular sponge would suck up water, but be flammable |
| 17:50 |
troller |
its works in mod ^^ |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
this would be very useful for making lava caves more interesting |
| 17:50 |
hmmmm |
(i mean by sucking up lava so it's not mostly unexplorable |
| 17:51 |
hmmmm |
also if i do the vertical large caves, people are going to want to cover them over and make a base out of it |
| 17:52 |
PilzAdam |
"fake_air"? |
| 17:52 |
PilzAdam |
seems hacky |
| 17:52 |
hmmmm |
i am not saying to plonk the mod which does this in directly |
| 17:52 |
hmmmm |
just that sponges would be nice to have |
| 17:53 |
troller |
here is special way for finite liquids - sponge sucks water aroud |
| 17:53 |
troller |
without fake air |
| 17:55 |
troller |
and i want more realistic sponge - can suck only 64 blocks of water, can be removed and placed in inventorty, placed in new dry place, punched and release all water |
| 17:56 |
Exio |
super-bucket? :P |
| 17:56 |
troller |
yes! |
| 17:56 |
Calinou |
i'd like to have sponges in default |
| 17:56 |
Calinou |
but how could you craft em |
| 17:56 |
troller |
look at post ^^ |
| 17:56 |
Exio |
mese! it is .. yellow? |
| 17:57 |
PilzAdam |
4 mese fragments |
| 17:57 |
troller |
its ready and works |
| 17:57 |
Exio |
i'd use a mese block |
| 17:58 |
Exio |
for making it expensive |
| 17:58 |
hmmmm |
I don't think it should be allowed in survival |
| 17:58 |
hmmmm |
but that's just me |
| 17:58 |
troller |
sponges very helpful with finite liquids |
| 18:00 |
Calinou |
it should |
| 18:01 |
PilzAdam |
they are cool for finit liquids, but I dont see how it could be useful for normal liquids |
| 18:03 |
Calinou |
just building? |
| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
[02:01 PM] <PilzAdam> they are cool for finit liquids, but I dont see how it could be useful for normal liquids |
| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
what?? that doesn't make sense |
| 18:11 |
hmmmm |
it would be most useful for normal liquids |
| 18:12 |
celeron55 |
i also think sponges mostly make sense for infinite liquids 8) |
| 18:12 |
hmmmm |
the alternative is to fill up the space with some node and then dig it back away |
| 18:13 |
ShadowNinja |
hmmmm: You would be able to transport lot more finite liquid, with infinite liquids two sources = infinite sources |
| 18:13 |
hmmmm |
erm we must be misunderstanding sponges then |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
i am thinking something much simpler, like in minecraft classic |
| 18:14 |
hmmmm |
where it doesn't store any such liquid |
| 18:14 |
* ShadowNinja |
hasn't heard of those |
| 18:15 |
ShadowNinja |
What do they do? |
| 18:15 |
hmmmm |
basically i think it would be cool to remove liquids from an area without having to fill the entire area up and then dig them away |
| 18:16 |
ShadowNinja |
Can you remove liquid from sponges? |
| 18:17 |
Calinou |
yes |
| 18:17 |
PilzAdam |
hmmmm, do you also want to block liquids from refloing into it? |
| 18:17 |
Calinou |
so you can troll 0gb.us |
| 18:17 |
Calinou |
put iron sponge near lava, ???, PROFIT |
| 18:19 |
celeron55 |
i think sponges that store liquid make sense for finite liquid, and sponges that just keep liquid away make sense for infinite liquid |
| 18:19 |
Calinou |
is there any reason for disabling fall bobbing? we have view bobbing so it makes no sense to disable it by default. |
| 18:19 |
Calinou |
Taoki coded it pretty much for nothing |
| 18:19 |
Calinou |
the pros aren't going to use it since it changes their camera position |
| 18:19 |
Calinou |
(or just to mine through walls) |
| 18:20 |
Taoki |
Calinou: celeron55 doesn't like it for whatever reason, so he disabled it by default |
| 18:20 |
Taoki |
People who want the first person feel to be realistic will use it however |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-04-23#i_3045262 |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
it sounds like you stopped reading my comments before that |
| 18:28 |
hmmmm |
pilzadam, yes, while the block is there |
| 18:28 |
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| 21:00 |
sfan5 |
can you use env:set_node in an on_globalstep callback? |
| 21:02 |
PilzAdam |
of course |
| 21:03 |
sfan5 |
hm, so thats not the problem |
| 21:07 |
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| 21:10 |
hmmmm |
eurgh |
| 21:10 |
hmmmm |
well it looks kinda neat, but i guess for it to work out, the vector needs to be nearly horizontal and much longer |
| 21:11 |
hmmmm |
http://ompldr.org/vaThxdw |
| 21:11 |
hmmmm |
a ravine |
| 21:22 |
troller |
im trying to make falling liquids as sand for more realistic waterfalls |
| 21:23 |
troller |
and maybe slowdown other falling items in liquids |
| 21:46 |
hmmmm |
yikes, i think i made ravines a bit too crazy |
| 21:46 |
hmmmm |
you can fall to -240 :D |
| 21:48 |
Exio |
i want that - now |
| 21:48 |
Exio |
:P |
| 21:49 |
hmmmm |
that's mod material |
| 21:52 |
VanessaE |
I trust you'll name the first official such ravine either "Shonash", "Clayton", or "Eastwood"... Right? RIGHT!? ;) |
| 21:52 |
hmmmm |
no |
| 22:01 |
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| 22:02 |
VanessaE |
oh well, guess my joke made no sense then. |
| 22:15 |
hmmmm |
back to the future stuff? |
| 22:15 |
VanessaE |
Can we finally get something put into the engine (or whatever) for soft dependencies? (Force a particular mod to load before another, if both exist, but without the latter explicitly depending on the former) |
| 22:15 |
VanessaE |
yeah, it was a BTTF reference. |
| 22:16 |
hmmmm |
ahh, haven't watched those movies since i was about 10 |
| 22:16 |
hmmmm |
hah |
| 22:16 |
hmmmm |
pilzadam would probably be interested in taking up that feature request |
| 22:17 |
PilzAdam |
soft depends are already relatively good possible |
| 22:17 |
hmmmm |
what |
| 22:17 |
celeron55 |
1) that isn't english, 2) no, they aren't supported currently; not in any satisfactory way |
| 22:18 |
PilzAdam |
-relatively good |
| 22:18 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: One has to absolutely guarantee that mod A's functions will be 100% loaded and ready when mod B needs them, but without mod B depending on mod A |
| 22:19 |
PilzAdam |
there is only 1 case that isnt possible currently: when a mod needs a function of another mod to register a node |
| 22:19 |
VanessaE |
hence mod B needs to be able to specify "loadfirst = modA, modC, ..., modN", something like the way you pull mods from common for a game |
| 22:19 |
VanessaE |
precisely, and that's what is MOST needed in fact. |
| 22:21 |
VanessaE |
the prime example is with moretrees - it depends on (as in, uses depends.txt) moreblocks to get the circular saw function - but I'd have preferred to just make it *use* those functions if the mod happens to be installed, else it would go on without support for that mod. |
| 22:21 |
celeron55 |
anyone can just add that support though; my plan for it is to do it so that appending '?' to a modname in depends.txt means it's optional |
| 22:22 |
VanessaE |
if I check for the presence of a function and it returns failure, I can't be 100% sure that function really doesn't exist |
| 22:22 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: that would be fine by me, but incompatible with older servers. |
| 22:22 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: any compatible one will be unclean |
| 22:22 |
VanessaE |
define "unclean" |
| 22:23 |
celeron55 |
give me a good alternative |
| 22:23 |
VanessaE |
I just did. |
| 22:23 |
celeron55 |
ehm |
| 22:23 |
celeron55 |
so where does it specify that? |
| 22:23 |
VanessaE |
In modB create a file: loadfirst.txt . Put in that file, "load_first = modA, modC, ..., modN" |
| 22:23 |
VanessaE |
older servers will of course ignore that file. |
| 22:24 |
celeron55 |
a million times better name for that file is optdepends.txt |
| 22:24 |
VanessaE |
but inside of modB, you can then safely do stuff like: if modA.somefunction then modA.somefunction(foo,bar) end |
| 22:24 |
celeron55 |
i think it's unclean, but whatever |
| 22:25 |
PilzAdam |
a new instead of a "?" at the end of modnames in depends.txt is better for compatibility |
| 22:25 |
PilzAdam |
+file |
| 22:25 |
VanessaE |
on an older server, modA will seem to not exist, but modB will go on running fine. On a newer server, modA would be loaded first and modB would use it. |
| 22:25 |
celeron55 |
i do want support for ?s to be added and optdepends.txt to be deprecated when such is released, and removed after everything that anyone cares of is migrated |
| 22:25 |
VanessaE |
backward compatibility is of foremost concern for a feature like this. |
| 22:26 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: no. Stop trying to be different. |
| 22:26 |
PilzAdam |
but, on the other hand, the mod would think that modA doesnt exist if it runs on an old server |
| 22:26 |
celeron55 |
there's no problem for that, stop being such a naysayer |
| 22:26 |
VanessaE |
I don't care too much what you name the new file - loadfirst.txt or optdepends.txt or whatever - but do NOT go changing the contents of depends.txt |
| 22:27 |
celeron55 |
and i'm not trying to be different, i'm trying to set up a good base for the years to come |
| 22:27 |
VanessaE |
you do nothing but make things hard for modders AND users then |
| 22:27 |
PilzAdam |
so, if mods use this feature, they more or less depend on it, and shouldnt be able to run on old servers |
| 22:27 |
celeron55 |
accumulating all kinds of cruft infinitely will lead to only crap |
| 22:27 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: there isn't such problem, because it's optional - it just ends up being not used while it actually does exist |
| 22:27 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: the whole idea is that if modB runs on the old server and can't find modA, that's okay - because the support for modA's functions was supposed to be optional anyway |
| 22:28 |
PilzAdam |
what if modB depends on the non-existance of modA and uses the system like that? |
| 22:28 |
VanessaE |
in the example I gave, moretrees installed on a pre-loadfirst server would simply not be able to see moreblocks in most cases, and would simply not enable the creation of stairs et.al. |
| 22:28 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: you can't imagine what we would have ended up by now if i had preserved absolute backwards compatibility in everything since 2011 |
| 22:29 |
PilzAdam |
it wouldnt be able to run on old servers with modA then |
| 22:29 |
hmmmm |
we'd have a Windows |
| 22:29 |
hmmmm |
:) |
| 22:29 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: I didn't say everything had to be backward compatible - I'm saying you gotta do whatever to can to soften the blow to modders and users. |
| 22:29 |
VanessaE |
and my suggestion is the best way, exact filenames asiode. |
| 22:29 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: that's the same thing |
| 22:29 |
VanessaE |
aside8 |
| 22:30 |
celeron55 |
i told you a way that softens it plenty, and you didn't really even read it, or understand it |
| 22:30 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: indeed, it wouldn't. But it would be a matter of that same optional code - that's the whole point - that modB should be able to *adapt* to the presence of modA, and a reliable way of detecting modA needs to be established. |
| 22:31 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: I read it, and understood it. you're trying to overcomplicate it by supporting it in two different ways (? and a separate file), which is guaranteed to break servers. |
| 22:31 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: what the fuck man |
| 22:31 |
VanessaE |
one method. one separate file. clean as a whistle. |
| 22:31 |
celeron55 |
GUARANTEED? |
| 22:31 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, but you never know how modders understand and use the system |
| 22:32 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: precisely. |
| 22:32 |
PilzAdam |
so my point is 100% valid |
| 22:32 |
VanessaE |
you just made my argument for me. |
| 22:32 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: how old is the oldest minetest server that runs your newest mods? |
| 22:32 |
VanessaE |
if you can't trust modders not to use a feature the wrong way, how can you trust USERS not to do so? |
| 22:32 |
PilzAdam |
if mods use new features and the server doesnt have it crash insteaf of dont telling the mod that it doesnt exist |
| 22:33 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, darkrose has a 0.3.1 |
| 22:33 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: had we had optional dependencies here and there, probably all the way back to when I started. |
| 22:33 |
PilzAdam |
+server |
| 22:33 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: that does not run mods? |
| 22:33 |
PilzAdam |
oh, didnt read the mods parts |
| 22:33 |
VanessaE |
(which is a bit over a year ago) |
| 22:33 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: so at which version did you start? |
| 22:34 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: just before 0.4.0. |
| 22:34 |
VanessaE |
well 0.3.1 but I didn't use it for more than a couple of days. |
| 22:34 |
celeron55 |
so plants_lib runs on 0.4.0? |
| 22:34 |
celeron55 |
that's complete bullshit |
| 22:34 |
VanessaE |
did I say that? |
| 22:34 |
celeron55 |
or whatever your mods are |
| 22:34 |
VanessaE |
now you're putting words into my mouth |
| 22:35 |
celeron55 |
i asked which is the oldest version of MT that runs the newest versions of your mods |
| 22:35 |
VanessaE |
I'm not sure - I've simply lost track by now. |
| 22:35 |
celeron55 |
i am going to base the migration time from optdepends.txt to ? from that, and then you will agree assuming you are sane |
| 22:36 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: let's put it this way, some people still run for example 0.4.4. |
| 22:36 |
celeron55 |
okay, so half a year will do well |
| 22:36 |
hmmmm |
people who still run 0.4.4 are certifiably crazy |
| 22:36 |
hmmmm |
newer versions of minetest have infinitely improved in a ridiculous amount of ways |
| 22:36 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: maybe so, but tell that to redcrab. |
| 22:37 |
hmmmm |
it's just unthinkable to use 0.4.4 when there's so much better |
| 22:37 |
VanessaE |
hell, tell that to darkrose :) |
| 22:37 |
hmmmm |
maybe they haven't been keeping up with how much has changed |
| 22:37 |
VanessaE |
(actually redcrab runs 0.4.5 by now I think) |
| 22:37 |
hmmmm |
all of it is for the better though |
| 22:37 |
VanessaE |
and that is the point I'm trying to make |
| 22:37 |
PilzAdam |
hmmmm, note that you cant port maps from 0.4.5 to 0.4.6 |
| 22:38 |
VanessaE |
it IS for the better, I agree |
| 22:38 |
hmmmm |
that was such a blunder |
| 22:38 |
|
kahrl joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:38 |
hmmmm |
all because of the exception handling |
| 22:38 |
hmmmm |
anyway i thought you had released a patch version right after, with that fixed? |
| 22:39 |
PilzAdam |
there was no official build of that |
| 22:39 |
celeron55 |
stable versions are always funny; stable basically means (in any software) that it will either be stablely working or stablely broken 8) |
| 22:40 |
hmmmm |
right :( |
| 22:40 |
celeron55 |
nothing is stopping you from releasing 0.4.7 though |
| 22:40 |
PilzAdam |
http://devopsreactions.tumblr.com/post/44776341195/bug-reports-after-a-new-release |
| 22:41 |
hmmmm |
lots of features in upstream are pretty unstable |
| 22:41 |
celeron55 |
one commit is enough to increase the patch version by one; there's absolutely no reason to spare them |
| 22:41 |
hmmmm |
e.g. hud api |
| 22:41 |
PilzAdam |
we have decided to merge leveldb for 0.4.7 |
| 22:41 |
hmmmm |
that too |
| 22:41 |
hmmmm |
although maybe it's a better idea to hold off |
| 22:41 |
celeron55 |
that sounds like you should decide to do it after 0.4.7 8) |
| 22:42 |
hmmmm |
there isn't as much third party support for leveldb |
| 22:42 |
celeron55 |
always when you think "we have to do this big thing for version X", the wisest thing to do is first release something you know definitely works, and then start working on the big thing |
| 22:42 |
VanessaE |
also consider that 0.3.x is still present as the standard version in ubuntu repositories. How long do you suppose the first 0.4.x release that makes it there will stay? |
| 22:42 |
celeron55 |
hmmmm: i'm worried about that too; it's pretty much the end for easy-to-make third party map tools |
| 22:42 |
PilzAdam |
doesnt the leveldb pull request include an option to choose whether to use sqlite or leveldb? so people can choose what they want |
| 22:43 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: they know it will be immediately old, so they don't put 0.4 in there |
| 22:43 |
celeron55 |
packagers aren't very dumb 8) |
| 22:43 |
hmmmm |
yeah but who in their right minds would use sqlite when given a better option |
| 22:43 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: so they shall just keep 0.3.x forever then? |
| 22:43 |
hmmmm |
and then you'd have a third party tool that works for some people and not for others |
| 22:43 |
hmmmm |
and then somebody will "upload their map" and whoops, it's an incompatible version because leveldb support hasn't been compiled in |
| 22:44 |
kahrl |
VanessaE: well there is supposed to be a 0.5.0 when the lua API is reasonably stable |
| 22:44 |
PilzAdam |
hmmmm, do you choose it when compiling or when creating the map? |
| 22:44 |
hmmmm |
when compiling, no?? |
| 22:44 |
VanessaE |
kahrl: and how long do you figure the ubuntu et.al repos will keep 0.5.0 then, given how long 0.3.x has stuck around? |
| 22:44 |
PilzAdam |
dunno |
| 22:44 |
hmmmm |
i've never used it |
| 22:45 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: I believe it's chosen at map-creation tine, defaulting to sqlite |
| 22:45 |
celeron55 |
0.5.0 sounds like something where people will have huge pressure to put enormous amounts of experimental stuff in and then it's the most broken thing ever |
| 22:45 |
* celeron55 |
knows how people do things |
| 22:46 |
hmmmm |
0.5.0 will have fully hardware lighting |
| 22:46 |
hmmmm |
mapgen v8 |
| 22:46 |
hmmmm |
a toaster |
| 22:46 |
hmmmm |
voxel area entities |
| 22:46 |
kahrl |
nah, we need to learn from firefox et al. mapgen v42 |
| 22:47 |
hmmmm |
lock-free environment |
| 22:47 |
celeron55 |
minetest 50 |
| 22:47 |
hmmmm |
the user doesn't need to look at the version number anymore |
| 22:47 |
celeron55 |
let's just start using an integer version number |
| 22:47 |
hmmmm |
all they need to know is that they're using the latest |
| 22:47 |
hmmmm |
</endquote> |
| 22:47 |
celeron55 |
the next one will be minetest 2 |
| 22:47 |
celeron55 |
8D |
| 22:48 |
celeron55 |
everyone will hate us forever |
| 22:48 |
hmmmm |
and remove all the options too |
| 22:48 |
troller |
.version = unix timestamp of commit |
| 22:48 |
PilzAdam |
VanessaE, there is no documentation in minetest.conf.example, but it seems its saved in world.mt |
| 22:48 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: which, the database backend? |
| 22:48 |
troller |
v1367102917 |
| 22:48 |
PilzAdam |
in the leveldb pull request |
| 22:49 |
VanessaE |
that sounds right - I haven't looked into the whole thing in a while. |
| 22:49 |
PilzAdam |
it needs some better documentation |
| 22:49 |
celeron55 |
troller: let's use sha1 hashed unix timestamps as versions |
| 22:49 |
hmmmm |
hey... rolling release |
| 22:49 |
celeron55 |
troller: then nobody truly has any idea of it |
| 22:50 |
PilzAdam |
there is also a new command line parameter "migrate" if I read the code right |
| 22:50 |
troller |
celeron55, just git commit |
| 22:50 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: yes |
| 22:50 |
VanessaE |
troller: no, commit date+time. |
| 22:50 |
troller |
v0fb9567f1394646a71d42aa9bd7e6da8343c9784 |
| 22:50 |
kahrl |
does it just migrate from sqlite to leveldb? or both directions? |
| 22:50 |
VanessaE |
nothing more complicated is needed. |
| 22:51 |
PilzAdam |
kahrl, since there is no documentation we can only guess |
| 22:51 |
troller |
v1367102917.0fb9567f1394646a71d42aa9bd7e6da8343c9784 - more sortable |
| 22:51 |
celeron55 |
troller: and let's make version nicknames using this http://wiki.yak.net/589/Bubble_Babble_Encoding.txt |
| 22:53 |
celeron55 |
kahrl: i think it can do both |
| 22:53 |
PilzAdam |
related to version number discussion: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=81129#p81129 |
| 22:53 |
celeron55 |
thexyz is the one to answer |
| 22:53 |
VanessaE |
I wish we could get back to the subject we started on - soft depends that is. |
| 22:53 |
PilzAdam |
just use a "random thing" as the version number :D |
| 22:54 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: it's decided already, for the relevant part (arguably nothing else even is relevant than the decision that it shall be made) |
| 22:55 |
celeron55 |
(reading stuff from files is simpler than figuring out how to make the algorithm do softdepends) |
| 22:58 |
troller |
btw - i have no "public servers" button in official win 0.4.6 build - its my bug? |
| 22:59 |
PilzAdam |
does it have cURL support compiled in? |
| 22:59 |
troller |
i dont know |
| 22:59 |
troller |
thexyz, !!!! |
| 22:59 |
troller |
PilzAdam, its works in your builds |
| 23:00 |
troller |
libcurl.dll included |
| 23:00 |
PilzAdam |
seems like they dont have cURL support, is there a "Public" checkbox in the advanced tab? |
| 23:01 |
celeron55 |
wut |
| 23:02 |
celeron55 |
where's all the QA? 8) |
| 23:02 |
troller |
PilzAdam, no |
| 23:02 |
troller |
very bad for official build |
| 23:03 |
troller |
and 24.03.13 — minetest/minetest 73a5e987f4352ebeda8ba122d1be60316ae7784e - have no curl too |
| 23:04 |
troller |
but 0.4.5 - ok |
| 23:11 |
PilzAdam |
bye |
| 23:27 |
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Taoki joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:36 |
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Pentium44 joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:36 |
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Pentium44 joined #minetest-dev |
| 23:55 |
hmmmm |
ahhgh |
| 23:55 |
hmmmm |
i think i have it right where i want it! |
| 23:55 |
VanessaE |
uh oh |
| 23:55 |
hmmmm |
http://ompldr.org/vaThzZQ |
| 23:55 |
VanessaE |
holy shit |
| 23:58 |
ShadowNinja |
Neat! Could that be stretched out to make ravines? |
| 23:58 |
hmmmm |
that is a ravine |
| 23:59 |
VanessaE |
I think he means ravines that stretch for hundreds of meters in length (X/Z) perhaps |
| 23:59 |
hmmmm |
yup, that's not happening |
| 23:59 |
hmmmm |
this needs to fit in a chunk |
| 23:59 |
ShadowNinja |
ohm looked round from that perspective |
| 23:59 |
ShadowNinja |
oh, * |
