Time  Nick          Message
00:44 kahrl         should the placement prediction of wallmounted nodes set an appropriate param2?
00:46 Exio          i think
00:46 VanessaE      I would think so.
01:21 kahrl         server.cpp:2987
01:21 kahrl         shouldn't the block of pointed_pos_under be sent too?
01:25 kahrl         scenario: you place something at a block boundary, and the under node has buildable_to == true
01:47 kahrl         oh man placing torches is so much less laggy now :D
01:47 kahrl         at least in singleplayer where I tested
02:02 kahrl         https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/687
02:14 hmmmm         it really seems like the client needs to regenerate a mesh every 5 seconds
02:15 hmmmm         i should probably put some effort into optimizing that
02:16 kahrl         regenerate due to ABMs doing stuff, liquids flowing or just spontaneously?
02:16 hmmmm         just everything
02:16 hmmmm         it's like anything that happens requires a mesh regeneration
02:17 hmmmm         like if i scratch my head that's going to require a mesh regeneration too
02:17 VanessaE      hah\
02:18 hmmmm         did you ever look into using multiple mesh generation threads?  i'm not very familiar with that area of minetest at all, does it need to lock anything big that would make multithreading useless?
02:19 kahrl         the mesh generator isn't supposed to access anything outside of MeshMakeData
02:19 kahrl         except getting textures and shaders from their respective sources
02:19 kahrl         so it should be possible
02:20 kahrl         of course it accesses nodedef but that needs no lock
02:21 hmmmm         a faster mesh maker, or more of them, would reduce the bottleneck of loading blocks in singleplayer
02:27 VanessaE      holy crap, the new alpha feature works with nodeboxes too
02:28 VanessaE      in case you give two shits about a somewhat-off-topic comment and screenshot:  http://digitalaudioconcepts.com/vanessa/hobbies/minetest/screenshots/screenshot_1230069880.png
02:31 VanessaE      (execept that 100% opaque isn't quite 100%)
02:37 hmmmm         ah i do see what you mean
02:37 hmmmm         are you using shaders there?
02:37 VanessaE      yep.
02:37 hmmmm         hrmm
02:37 hmmmm         i'll check it out later
02:37 VanessaE      thought you might be interested in this little experiment :)
02:42 hmmmm         i'm sure the problem is that the fog calculation is supposed to work on linear color and i just need to do that before i convert back to srgb
02:42 VanessaE      might be.  I was just screwing around a bit to see what I could come up with
02:43 VanessaE      *turns off fog* ..  nope, the wood is still slightly see-through
02:45 hmmmm         turning off fog wouldn't fix this
02:45 VanessaE      oh ok
02:46 VanessaE      well it's not that important.  Just thought I'd mention the successful part :)
03:20 hmmmm         i think i accidentally switched something off and now large caves go vertically downward but the result is awesome looking
03:22 hmmmm         i sorta wish we had some sort of brightness auto-adjust so caves don't need to be pitch black
03:22 hmmmm         either that, or a light source with a larger spread
03:33 VanessaE      naw, keep 'em dark
03:36 ShadowNinja   I would love higher ranges, even light_max is a little low
04:06 ShadowNinja   Hmmm, this will probably conflict will my pull, but I will update mine if someone merges this, does this seem OK? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/687
04:07 ShadowNinja   (hmmm, not the user btw, although I sort of also mean him)
04:10 ShadowNinja   Also, this can probably be closed now: https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/100
04:36 kahrl         ShadowNinja: I could merge your pull request into mine, would that make sense?
05:31 hmmmm         mmmm..
05:31 hmmmm         this is tough
05:33 hmmmm         now that i have a heightmap, i simply look up the height when limiting the cave route Y
05:34 hmmmm         except caves can, and do often spawn in the bordering blocks
05:34 hmmmm         which i don't have height information on without explicitly calculating
05:34 hmmmm         wonder how horrible it would be if i were to assume the ground level is water level
10:44 RealBadAngel  why i was removed from core devs list?
10:48 Exio          RealBadAngel: what list?
10:49 Exio          (that as: i just see you in the in-game list)
10:51 RealBadAngel  im talkin about commit rights
10:51 RealBadAngel  why i was removed from there?
10:53 Exio          oh - no idea really
11:32 PilzAdam      RealBadAngel, https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/156 <- no, minetest_game only exists for legacy reasons and new features arent added there
11:34 VanessaE      so how does someone whose mod depends on, say, default, also get flowers?
11:37 PilzAdam      flowers arent in default, so depending on default if you want flowers is wrong
11:37 VanessaE      I know, I'm just saying generally - when a modder depends on default, they do so because they're used to it being part of minetest_game.  So do they have to expressly switch to 'build' or 'survival' or something?
11:40 PilzAdam      they have to depend on flowers if they need flowers, so they can only run in games that include flowers
11:40 VanessaE      so the answer is "yes" then.
11:42 RealBadAngel  so you mean, minetest_game is obsolete, yes?
11:50 VanessaE      really, if it's obsolete, why bother keeping it around?  it just confuses new users (and a few veterans too)
11:50 Exio          it is legacy
11:50 Exio          people wanted a game what didn't change
11:51 Exio          here the people has one, the common and old minetest_game
11:52 RealBadAngel  it leads to curious situations, that mods tryin to depend on basic stuff like flowers wont be able run in with minetest game
11:52 RealBadAngel  in fact minetest_game wont be able to run very little mods soon
11:52 RealBadAngel  *will be
11:54 RealBadAngel  this is not good when game modes will restrict what kind of mods can be run there
11:55 RealBadAngel  build and survival shall have same exact content, but one shall be craeative world, the other one survival with mobs in the future
11:56 RealBadAngel  but there cant be such things like separate content
11:56 Exio          what about people waiting/liking having farms in creative?
11:56 Exio          the mods what will use mobs will depend of survival then
11:56 RealBadAngel  exio: same content for all games
11:56 RealBadAngel  i said that alreadt
11:57 RealBadAngel  splitting content made technic not able to be used with minetest_game already
11:57 RealBadAngel  this is getting ridiculous
11:59 RealBadAngel  PilzAdam, are you trying to force modders to drop dependency of anythin included in games? or made them providing flowers again if in current game there are no flowers for example?
12:01 RealBadAngel  also same applies to screwdriver. tool designed for players to easily handle 6d facedir nodes
12:02 RealBadAngel  your politics lead to situation that despite its in commons, folks are not able to use it
12:02 RealBadAngel  and there have to be mods copying that code to bring it back
12:03 RealBadAngel  so whats the point including it at all?
12:03 RealBadAngel  i demand of removal my screwdriver code from common
12:03 RealBadAngel  it will return to technic modpack
12:16 thexyz        > that mods tryin to depend on basic stuff like flowers wont be able run in with minetest game
12:17 thexyz        how come?
12:17 RealBadAngel  because flowers are not added to minetest game
12:18 RealBadAngel  so, technic cannot run in this mode unless it provides own copy of flowers, which is nonsense
12:18 thexyz        i still don't get it
12:18 thexyz        if user doesn't have required the game will gently tell him/her
12:19 thexyz        so he/she goes to forum and downloads flowers
12:19 RealBadAngel  whats the point downloading flowers if theyre already there but in different folder,huh?
12:20 RealBadAngel  PilzAdam is splitting content between games
12:20 RealBadAngel  i made framed glass and he wanted it to be aviable only in build
12:20 thexyz        well, then he or she may go to that different folder and copy that mod from there
12:20 RealBadAngel  so i refused to use it at all
12:21 RealBadAngel  also screwdriver wont stay in commons too
12:22 RealBadAngel  this creates just mess, when content is splitted between games
12:22 RealBadAngel  i wont be writing mods that will have to check whats is supported by PilzAdam and whats not
12:25 thexyz        wait
12:25 thexyz        how come you'll have to check "whats is supported by PilzAdam and whats not"?
12:25 thexyz        you just depend on "flowers" when you need flowers
12:25 RealBadAngel  not only, i wrote screwdriver as tool for handling nodes easily
12:25 VanessaE      thexyz: which makes it impossible to use the mod with that dependency on anything but the build and survival games
12:25 thexyz        making that mess called "default" was a huge mistake i think
12:25 VanessaE      (or a custom game, as I use)
12:25 thexyz        VanessaE: why is it impossible?
12:26 RealBadAngel  and i have to include it again for folks want to play with other game modes
12:26 RealBadAngel  also calinou has included copy of it
12:26 VanessaE      thexyz: because minetest_game, being the only other standard-issue game, doesn't have flowers (via common)at all - it was deliberately excluded from it
12:26 thexyz        VanessaE: why can't you download it?
12:26 thexyz        "flowers" mod
12:27 RealBadAngel  again. why download if its here??
12:27 VanessaE      thexyz: I certainly can - but what about your average user who barely knows how to download a mod at all?
12:27 thexyz        isn't that how dependencies are supposed to work?
12:27 VanessaE      you really want to tell them to modify the standard-issue game content
12:27 VanessaE      ?
12:27 thexyz        > barely knows how to download a mod
12:27 thexyz        how'd he got "the mod with that dependency" then?
12:27 thexyz        VanessaE: I didn't say that
12:27 VanessaE      thexyz: it comes with minetest "common".
12:27 RealBadAngel  thexyz, current way is PilzAdam enablin or disabling content
12:28 thexyz        there is no need to "modify the standard-issue game content"
12:28 thexyz        you just download mod called "flowers"
12:28 thexyz        if you don't have it
12:28 thexyz        same for other dependencies
12:28 RealBadAngel  following his vision of creative and survival
12:28 thexyz        VanessaE: so?
12:28 * VanessaE    shrugs
12:28 thexyz        well, you can enable it in the game config as well
12:29 RealBadAngel  explain player why the duck he have to download mod that he already has on the disk...
12:29 RealBadAngel  and why author has to maintain two versions of it, one included and one other for separate downloads
12:29 VanessaE      maybe what's needed is a way for a third-party mod to depend on and "pull in" something from common, the way a game such as survival does.
12:30 VanessaE      this would solve the issue neatly.
12:32 kaeza         related? https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/599
12:33 VanessaE      kaeza: similar, yeah
12:33 RealBadAngel  thexyz, http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=86277#p86277 this is the mess im talkin about
12:33 RealBadAngel  please read a few posts starting here
12:34 thexyz        RealBadAngel: so?
12:35 thexyz        the guy is unable to install "common" modpack
12:35 RealBadAngel  there will be more such "flowers"
12:36 thexyz        RealBadAngel: okay, he doesn't have to, he can as well enable it in the game config
12:36 RealBadAngel  you still dont get the point, configs, separate download etc
12:37 thexyz        yes, i still don't get it
12:37 RealBadAngel  this all leads to game will be unplayable for less experienced users or kids
12:37 thexyz        as i see it, you want to include everything everywhere
12:37 RealBadAngel  no
12:37 thexyz        because "users are stupid" or something
12:37 thexyz        so stupid they're unable to download a single file and unzip it
12:38 thexyz        or edit a single text document
12:38 thexyz        no?
12:38 RealBadAngel  kids wont be able to do that
12:39 RealBadAngel  but thats not the point. it makes modders life complicated
12:39 thexyz        what does?
12:39 thexyz        the thing that "kids wont be able to do that"?
12:40 RealBadAngel  edit configs, solve deps etc, but as i said thats not my point really, just a thought
12:41 RealBadAngel  point is i need to do fancy gimmicks to get technic working with different content provided by default games
12:41 RealBadAngel  hell i have to reinclude even my own code
12:42 RealBadAngel  because PA decided screwdriver is not for survival
12:43 thexyz        (okay, let's say I got that one wrong and retire)
12:44 kaeza         ehm... then how are we supposed to turn the stairsplus/moreblocks nodes?
12:45 VanessaE      magic, of course.
12:46 RealBadAngel  use the force, Luke, use the force :P
12:48 thexyz        kaeza: enable screwdriver in your game.conf
12:49 kaeza         thexyz, how if I'm running survival?
12:49 kaeza         that's exacly RBA's point
12:49 kaeza         IMHO It's understandable that things like the bones (the version with inv transfer), mobs, hunger, etc, would be left off of creative (build)
12:50 kaeza         but things like screwdriver and the framed glass is nonsense
12:50 RealBadAngel  but not the content
12:50 VanessaE      I think the point being made here is that the actual content - tools, blocks, etc - that is available in one game should be available in all standard games.  Only the actual active gameplay should change.
12:51 RealBadAngel  like survival - damage on, no creative, fly, noclip, fast aviable, mobs etc
12:52 thexyz        kaeza: enable screwdriver in your game.conf
12:52 kaeza         thexyz, how if I'm running survival?
12:52 RealBadAngel  build: creative on, no damage, no mobs
12:52 VanessaE      and that minetest_game is now considered "dead".
12:52 kaeza         RBA's point is that screwdriver is not in common
12:53 VanessaE      it's in common, just not enabled in survival.
12:53 kaeza         err... that you can't add anything to mt_game
12:53 kaeza         and what VanessaE said
12:53 kaeza         thexyz, build, and survival (and possibly minetest_game) should be games that run out of the box
12:54 thexyz        meh
12:54 thexyz        they do
12:54 thexyz        if you need something that they don't include
12:54 RealBadAngel  folks will want to build in survival also, but earned, collected, farmed or dug resources against all odss
12:54 thexyz        you install it/enable it
12:54 kaeza         sheesh
12:54 RealBadAngel  theres no point in disabling content for survival game
12:55 thexyz        there is
12:56 thexyz        PilzAdam thought "screwdriver" doesn't belong to survival hence he disabled it
12:56 thexyz        you don't think so
12:57 RealBadAngel  what about framed glass?
12:57 thexyz        but your point is "noobs won't be able to enable it"
12:57 kaeza         thexyz, the framed glass is the new "hot" feature... do I (as a user) have to copy from another ("standard-issue") game because someone thought it was bad for another "standard-issue" game?
12:57 thexyz        which is terribly wrong, as I think
12:58 kaeza         VanessaE and RealBadAngel clearly made the point: you don't disable content; only gameplay elements
12:58 kaeza         and ultimately, why are we bugging xyz with such things? shouldn't we bug PA? :P
12:59 thexyz        I disagree with this point; to start with, what's the difference between "content" and "gameplay elements"?
12:59 VanessaE      maybe because thexyz piped up? ;)
12:59 RealBadAngel  thexyz, thx to PilzAdam who wanted it only in build, framed glass in not part of any standard game. its separate mod
12:59 thexyz        so?
12:59 RealBadAngel  just pointin results of such politic
12:59 VanessaE      thexyz: you don't have to fight and kill and so forth to keep your brick house in good order in creative, but in survival you might hvae to do all of that just to build a little cobblestone shack
13:00 thexyz        RealBadAngel: can you link this mod to me?
13:00 RealBadAngel  hold on
13:01 PilzAdam      <RealBadAngel> build and survival shall have same exact content, but one shall be craeative world, the other one survival with mobs in the future
13:01 PilzAdam      lol
13:01 RealBadAngel  https://github.com/RealBadAngel/technic/tree/indev/framedglass
13:01 PilzAdam      you want us to have 3 games with the same content?
13:01 PilzAdam      whats the point in having 3 games then?
13:01 RealBadAngel  read what we are talkin about
13:02 RealBadAngel  about THE POINT
13:02 RealBadAngel  3?
13:02 RealBadAngel  since when? you made minetest_game already trashed
13:02 kaeza         PilzAdam, bones is not the same in build and survival :)
13:02 PilzAdam      not every mod runs in every game
13:02 thexyz        > the framed glass is the new "hot" feature...
13:02 PilzAdam      thats intentional
13:02 thexyz        how's that crazy simple mod is the new hot feature?
13:02 kaeza         thexyz, new drawtype?
13:03 RealBadAngel  thexyz, http://i.imgur.com/5d6sNvO.jpg
13:03 thexyz        oh, I missed that part
13:04 RealBadAngel  this is this usage of this crazy simple code
13:04 PilzAdam      RealBadAngel, it is not our goal to run every mod in every game
13:05 RealBadAngel  PilzAdam, your vision of games are just weird
13:05 RealBadAngel  and i cannot agree
13:05 RealBadAngel  so please do remove screwdriver from common
13:05 RealBadAngel  i demand it
13:06 PilzAdam      no, screwdriver needs to be in build for moreblocks to work in it
13:06 RealBadAngel  moreblocks already are including its own copy of it
13:06 RealBadAngel  if you have missed it
13:06 PilzAdam      really? why does it that if its in common?
13:06 RealBadAngel  technic is also including it again
13:06 VanessaE      RealBadAngel: only because the default screwdriver had a 32px texture (that didn't look like 16px)
13:07 RealBadAngel  32px texture because mode numbers are overlayed
13:07 PilzAdam      RealBadAngel, isnt technic going to be a game?
13:07 RealBadAngel  it is
13:07 RealBadAngel  and it will fix all your inventions
13:07 RealBadAngel  including groups
13:07 PilzAdam      then it can use the screwdriver mod from common
13:08 RealBadAngel  no i wont be detecting and reincluding my own code
13:08 RealBadAngel  which by now me and calinou have to do
13:09 PilzAdam      you are missing the point of common, then
13:09 RealBadAngel  nvm
13:09 RealBadAngel  i want my screwdriver back
13:10 RealBadAngel  i wont let you decide where and when i can use it
13:10 RealBadAngel  also i wont let you decide on any of my code
13:11 thexyz        meh, what the fuck
13:11 PilzAdam      1) you can decide when you choose the game 2) people can use screwdriver as a mod for survival if they want to
13:11 PilzAdam      (they ruin point of this game then, though)
13:12 RealBadAngel  you think folks cannot build in survival?
13:12 RealBadAngel  rotfl
13:12 kaeza         ^
13:12 VanessaE      exactky.
13:12 VanessaE      exactly, too.
13:12 RealBadAngel  the game is about to collect resources, in a hard way
13:12 RealBadAngel  not using creative sandbox
13:12 VanessaE      go to redcrab's server, that's purely survival and people have built some really nice stuff there.
13:12 RealBadAngel  and build with them
13:13 VanessaE      and yet, it has such things as travelnet, homedecor, moreores/blocks, etc.
13:13 RealBadAngel  that is this game all about
13:14 RealBadAngel  and yet you are trying to tell ppl what blocks they may use, what tools
13:14 PilzAdam      yes, thats what game creators do
13:14 RealBadAngel  but youre simply wrong
13:15 RealBadAngel  good ive been taken rights, i wont need anymore to argue with you
13:15 VanessaE      if a game creator doesn't listen to his users, the game he creates will eventually cease to be used.
13:15 RealBadAngel  consider this as a last time
13:15 RealBadAngel  imho, you are bringing more harm to the game than good
13:16 kaeza         PilzAdam, am I forced to create a new game if I want the framed glass?
13:16 PilzAdam      kaeza, no, use technic game, it has framed glass
13:16 VanessaE      I hope technic doesn't become a game, then it'll fuck up my "game" used on my server.
13:16 RealBadAngel  only thing only interesting me why i dont have commit rights anymore.
13:17 kaeza         so, I want to use technic and build
13:17 PilzAdam      since RealBadAngel doesnt want it to be added to the build game
13:17 RealBadAngel  i just want to know the answer
13:17 RealBadAngel  before i leave this channel
13:19 PilzAdam      RealBadAngel, only celeron55 and thexyz have the rights to do that
13:20 RealBadAngel  nvm, i dont really need to know it.
13:20 VanessaE      I am, however, curious.
13:21 * PilzAdam    too
13:23 kaeza         PilzAdam, then what is the point in adding content to default games in the first place?
13:23 PilzAdam      that question doesnt make sense
13:23 kaeza         it does make sense
13:24 PilzAdam      explain
13:25 kaeza         if people need to install new mods for handling stuff like stairsplus nodes, then you may as well only provide "default"
13:25 kaeza         *install new mods separately
13:25 PilzAdam      you see the default game(s) only as a platform to run mods?
13:26 kaeza         nope, I mean, if you add the screwdriver to just build, then people need to install new mods if they want it for survival
13:26 kaeza         whether they have to download or copy from local folder
13:27 PilzAdam      the moreblocks mod just goes against the idea behind the survival game
13:27 VanessaE      how
13:27 VanessaE      ?
13:27 kaeza         now THAT makes no sense
13:27 PilzAdam      so I see no need to include mods into it to support it
13:28 PilzAdam      the main idea of survival is not building but surviving in a hostile world
13:28 PilzAdam      and moreblocks only focuses on building
13:28 kaeza         and does that have anything to do with content?
13:28 VanessaE      PilzAdam: um, most people who play in survival mode do some kind of building,.
13:29 VanessaE      many of those structures are quite nice, even beautiful, for the media anyway
13:29 PilzAdam      VanessaE, yes, for this kind of building the default mod is enough
13:29 VanessaE      I believe I said it before, and I'll say it again:  splitting the games the way that was done was a stupid idea.
13:29 PilzAdam      building is also part of the game, but its not as important as in the build game (obviously)
13:30 VanessaE      it should have just been one single game, with a checkbox in the world "Configure" dialog to decide whether to enable survival elements or not.
13:31 VanessaE      (e.g. like the "Creative Mode" checkbox now, but taken a few steps further and made world-specific.
13:33 Exio          getting resources for building is more funny than using the resources directly - imo
13:34 PilzAdam      VanessaE, so whats the difference to chosing "build" or "survival" at the beginning? (like we curently have)
13:35 iqualfragile  why does minetest suddenly depend on libz.so?
13:35 kaeza         iqualfragile, libpng depends on libz
13:35 VanessaE      PilzAdam: because each of those two "games" leaves out elements that people might find useful.  At least if it were a checkbox, more thought would have to go into what is or is not included in a given mode.
13:36 kaeza         iqualfragile, thus MT depended on libz since PNG support was added (probably from the beginning)
13:36 VanessaE      PilzAdam: it's one thing to leave MOBs out from creative.  It's a different issue entirely to leave out basic tools and nodes.
13:36 VanessaE      (from survival, etc)
13:37 PilzAdam      so you basically dont like the idea of not including nodes/tools from build into survival?
13:37 VanessaE      basically, yeah.
13:38 VanessaE      what can be built with, traded, etc. in one game should be usable in the other
13:38 kaeza         exactly
13:38 VanessaE      the whole point of survival was to introduce a bunch of shit that will kill you
13:38 VanessaE      not to leave out stuff that's genuinely useful.
13:39 hmmmm         zlib support was needed since mapblocks were compressed
13:39 VanessaE      otherwise, why even bother to include so much as one single node that isn't found in minimal and that isn't also directly related to the act of fighting for survival??
13:39 VanessaE      -?
13:39 hmmmm         it's included as part of base in nearly all operating systems, why complain about it?
13:45 VanessaE      bbl
13:46 VanessaE      for the logs:  Someone needs to answer RBA's question of why he no longer has commit access to the Minetest repositories. Considering what he's done for the engine and the community, I believe he has earned at least the courtesy of an answer.
13:47 VanessaE      oyut ->
13:47 VanessaE      out, too.  ->
13:47 hmmmm         was he removed, or did heconceal his membership on the member page
14:01 thexyz        > <+RealBadAnge> | only thing only interesting me why i dont have commit rights anymore.
14:12 sfan5         who hosts servers.minetest.net?
14:13 thexyz        i do
15:24 celeron55     a lot of drama i see
15:26 celeron55     it seems i forgot to add RBA back to the contributors after i freaked out of RBA's incompatible change and wanted to make sure he doesn't break anything while i fix it
15:27 hmmmm         adding new things to the end of enumerations or whatever is a detail that should probably be noted somewhere
15:28 celeron55     that does not apply to all enumerators, only to those that are serialized somewhere as-is
15:28 celeron55     so i guess it should be noted in a comment next to such enums
15:29 PilzAdam      maybe use #define instead of enums for such things?
15:29 kaeza         that carries another problem
15:29 hmmmm         there's nothing wrong with enums if you're just not stupid about them
15:30 celeron55     PilzAdam: then someone can easily accidentally add a #define with the same value
15:30 celeron55     or some random value
15:30 celeron55     there's no workarounds to stupidity 8) except maybe Java
15:30 kaeza         and soon you'll lose track of the "highest value"
15:35 celeron55     PilzAdam: it seems there are more like four than three groups of people; there's (this is actually obvious and we should have known it) the people who actually want the exact kind of development as we had before the game split
15:35 celeron55     PilzAdam: oddly enough, those are the people who complained before the split too 8)
15:36 celeron55     but anyway
15:37 celeron55     do you think the current direction won't have much problems in the long run? (in the short run, i see a lot of compaints that are due to change)
15:37 celeron55     (because people alway complain about change, no matter what)
15:37 celeron55     +s
15:37 Calinou       the same people want change
15:37 Calinou       :>
15:38 celeron55     basically my thoughts currently are "compainers gonna complain"
15:38 celeron55     ...
15:38 celeron55     complainers*
15:38 celeron55     i blame the keyboard
15:39 celeron55     i mean, we could have a fourth "official" game that would aim for just stuffing everything in
15:39 PilzAdam      there are people who see the default game as a platform for mods
15:39 celeron55     or we could do that in minetest_game
15:39 PilzAdam      and there are people who want to throw everything in
15:40 PilzAdam      yea, I thought maybe make minetest_game just include everything from common
15:40 celeron55     but it appears that in order to have a platform in mods, they need everything to be thrown in because of dependencies (because they think their users are too stupid to figure it out themselves)
15:41 celeron55     i guess the least relevant group after all are those who want minetest_game to stay the same
15:42 celeron55     so basically, if we did that, then some of the people who want minetest_game to be a "platform for mods" will complain about things being added to it
15:42 celeron55     but then we can say "but you need the additions for your dependencies"
15:42 celeron55     but that's not really correct
15:43 celeron55     because *their* users might be wise enough to manage the dependencies properly, while now it was geared towards those who don't want to manage dependencies
15:43 celeron55     one option would be to make a system for automatically grabbing depencies from common
15:44 celeron55     dependencies*
15:44 PilzAdam      that would screw up games
15:44 celeron55     it has the problem that if people use the same name for different versions of a mod, it will break horribly
15:45 celeron55     and yes, it would make the addition or removal of a mod actually add or remove even tens of mods
15:45 celeron55     which has uncontrollable effects
15:45 celeron55     so there are no best solutions here, only all kinds of compromises
15:46 celeron55     adding a poll on the forums won't help either, because most people don't understand all the implications of this choice
15:48 celeron55     for this, a proposal following rarkenin's (whoever he was on this channel) proposal system proposal could work best
15:49 celeron55     http://dev.minetest.net/User:Rarkenin/Proposal_System
15:51 celeron55     are there people here who would discuss the proposal of adding all common mods to minetest_game in the manner proposed in the proposal system proposal?
15:56 hmmmm         aghk
15:56 hmmmm         the cave code is so hard to work with
15:57 hmmmm         i am having trouble even keeping them underground
16:02 hmmmm         cutting off tunnels based on absolute routepoint y position is something that i didn't want to end up doing, but it seems to produce satisfactory results
16:15 hmmmm         and every once in a while, i'll have a large cave go vertically downward and cut through terrain
16:15 hmmmm         such sinkholes are already really cool looking underwater
16:17 PilzAdam      vertically caves are cool and quite challenging to go down
16:17 hmmmm         not if they're flooded with water
16:18 hmmmm         what is your opinion on sponges?
16:28 Exio          hmmmm: vertical caves "not underground"?
16:28 Exio          wouldn't that make nice-looking terrain?
17:41 hmmmm         everything is nice in moderation
17:42 hmmmm         the caves already pop up occasionally, but i can make that happen more often by not cancelling if the routepoint is above ground
17:43 hmmmm         what i was talking about in particular were vertical large caves
17:45 Calinou       she said, PilzAdam
17:47 troller       sponges must be in base
17:47 PilzAdam      what sponges?
17:48 troller       http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=4642
17:48 hmmmm         to suck up surrounding liquids in a 5x5x5 radius
17:49 hmmmm         before you go and say "it's not realistic", consider that infinite liquids aren't realistic in the first place
17:49 hmmmm         i believe proller also had an "iron sponge"
17:49 hmmmm         maybe this would suck up lava
17:49 hmmmm         and the regular sponge would suck up water, but be flammable
17:50 troller       its works in mod ^^
17:50 hmmmm         this would be very useful for making lava caves more interesting
17:50 hmmmm         (i mean by sucking up lava so it's not mostly unexplorable
17:51 hmmmm         also if i do the vertical large caves, people are going to want to cover them over and make a base out of it
17:52 PilzAdam      "fake_air"?
17:52 PilzAdam      seems hacky
17:52 hmmmm         i am not saying to plonk the mod which does this in directly
17:52 hmmmm         just that sponges would be nice to have
17:53 troller       here is special way for finite liquids - sponge sucks water aroud
17:53 troller       without fake air
17:55 troller       and i want more realistic sponge - can suck only 64 blocks of water, can be removed and placed in inventorty, placed in new dry place, punched and release all water
17:56 Exio          super-bucket? :P
17:56 troller       yes!
17:56 Calinou       i'd like to have sponges in default
17:56 Calinou       but how could you craft em
17:56 troller       look at post ^^
17:56 Exio          mese! it is .. yellow?
17:57 PilzAdam      4 mese fragments
17:57 troller       its ready and works
17:57 Exio          i'd use a mese block
17:58 Exio          for making it expensive
17:58 hmmmm         I don't think it should be allowed in survival
17:58 hmmmm         but that's just me
17:58 troller       sponges very helpful with finite liquids
18:00 Calinou       it should
18:01 PilzAdam      they are cool for finit liquids, but I dont see how it could be useful for normal liquids
18:03 Calinou       just building?
18:11 hmmmm         [02:01 PM] <PilzAdam> they are cool for finit liquids, but I dont see how it could be useful for normal liquids
18:11 hmmmm         what??  that doesn't make sense
18:11 hmmmm         it would be most useful for normal liquids
18:12 celeron55     i also think sponges mostly make sense for infinite liquids 8)
18:12 hmmmm         the alternative is to fill up the space with some node and then dig it back away
18:13 ShadowNinja   hmmmm: You would be able to transport  lot more finite liquid, with infinite liquids two sources = infinite sources
18:13 hmmmm         erm we must be misunderstanding sponges then
18:14 hmmmm         i am thinking something much simpler, like in minecraft classic
18:14 hmmmm         where it doesn't store any such liquid
18:14 * ShadowNinja hasn't heard of those
18:15 ShadowNinja   What do they do?
18:15 hmmmm         basically i think it would be cool to remove liquids from an area without having to fill the entire area up and then dig them away
18:16 ShadowNinja   Can you remove liquid from sponges?
18:17 Calinou       yes
18:17 PilzAdam      hmmmm, do you also want to block liquids from refloing into it?
18:17 Calinou       so you can troll 0gb.us
18:17 Calinou       put iron sponge near lava, ???, PROFIT
18:19 celeron55     i think sponges that store liquid make sense for finite liquid, and sponges that just keep liquid away make sense for infinite liquid
18:19 Calinou       is there any reason for disabling fall bobbing? we have view bobbing so it makes no sense to disable it by default.
18:19 Calinou       Taoki coded it pretty much for nothing
18:19 Calinou       the pros aren't going to use it since it changes their camera position
18:19 Calinou       (or just to mine through walls)
18:20 Taoki         Calinou: celeron55 doesn't like it for whatever reason, so he disabled it by default
18:20 Taoki         People who want the first person feel to be realistic will use it however
18:21 celeron55     http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-04-23#i_3045262
18:21 celeron55     it sounds like you stopped reading my comments before that
18:28 hmmmm         pilzadam, yes, while the block is there
21:00 sfan5         can you use env:set_node in an on_globalstep callback?
21:02 PilzAdam      of course
21:03 sfan5         hm, so thats not the problem
21:10 hmmmm         eurgh
21:10 hmmmm         well it looks kinda neat, but i guess for it to work out, the vector needs to be nearly horizontal and much longer
21:11 hmmmm         http://ompldr.org/vaThxdw
21:11 hmmmm         a ravine
21:22 troller       im trying to make falling liquids as sand for more realistic waterfalls
21:23 troller       and maybe slowdown other falling items in liquids
21:46 hmmmm         yikes, i think i made ravines a bit too crazy
21:46 hmmmm         you can fall to -240 :D
21:48 Exio          i want that - now
21:48 Exio          :P
21:49 hmmmm         that's mod material
21:52 VanessaE      I trust you'll name the first official such ravine either "Shonash", "Clayton", or "Eastwood"... Right?  RIGHT!?  ;)
21:52 hmmmm         no
22:02 VanessaE      oh well, guess my joke made no sense then.
22:15 hmmmm         back to the future stuff?
22:15 VanessaE      Can we finally get something put into the engine (or whatever) for soft dependencies?  (Force a particular mod to load before another, if both exist, but without the latter explicitly depending on the former)
22:15 VanessaE      yeah, it was a BTTF reference.
22:16 hmmmm         ahh, haven't watched those movies since i was about 10
22:16 hmmmm         hah
22:16 hmmmm         pilzadam would probably be interested in taking up that feature request
22:17 PilzAdam      soft depends are already relatively good possible
22:17 hmmmm         what
22:17 celeron55     1) that isn't english, 2) no, they aren't supported currently; not in any satisfactory way
22:18 PilzAdam      -relatively good
22:18 VanessaE      PilzAdam: One has to absolutely guarantee that mod A's functions will be 100% loaded and ready when mod B needs them, but without mod B depending on mod A
22:19 PilzAdam      there is only 1 case that isnt possible currently: when a mod needs a function of another mod to register a node
22:19 VanessaE      hence mod B needs to be able to specify "loadfirst = modA, modC, ..., modN", something like the way you pull mods from common for a game
22:19 VanessaE      precisely, and that's what is MOST needed in fact.
22:21 VanessaE      the prime example is with moretrees - it depends on (as in, uses depends.txt) moreblocks to get the circular saw function - but I'd have preferred to just make it *use* those functions if the mod happens to be installed, else it would go on without support for that mod.
22:21 celeron55     anyone can just add that support though; my plan for it is to do it so that appending '?' to a modname in depends.txt means it's optional
22:22 VanessaE      if I check for the presence of a function and it returns failure, I can't be 100% sure that function really doesn't exist
22:22 VanessaE      celeron55: that would be fine by me, but incompatible with older servers.
22:22 celeron55     VanessaE: any compatible one will be unclean
22:22 VanessaE      define "unclean"
22:23 celeron55     give me a good alternative
22:23 VanessaE      I just did.
22:23 celeron55     ehm
22:23 celeron55     so where does it specify that?
22:23 VanessaE      In modB create a file:  loadfirst.txt .  Put in that file, "load_first = modA, modC, ..., modN"
22:23 VanessaE      older servers will of course ignore that file.
22:24 celeron55     a million times better name for that file is optdepends.txt
22:24 VanessaE      but inside of modB, you can then safely do stuff like:  if modA.somefunction then  modA.somefunction(foo,bar) end
22:24 celeron55     i think it's unclean, but whatever
22:25 PilzAdam      a new instead of a "?" at the end of modnames in depends.txt is better for compatibility
22:25 PilzAdam      +file
22:25 VanessaE      on an older server, modA will seem to not exist, but modB will go on running fine.  On a newer server, modA would be loaded first and modB would use it.
22:25 celeron55     i do want support for ?s to be added and optdepends.txt to be deprecated when such is released, and removed after everything that anyone cares of is migrated
22:25 VanessaE      backward compatibility is of foremost concern for a feature like this.
22:26 VanessaE      celeron55: no.  Stop trying to be different.
22:26 PilzAdam      but, on the other hand, the mod would think that modA doesnt exist if it runs on an old server
22:26 celeron55     there's no problem for that, stop being such a naysayer
22:26 VanessaE      I don't care too much what you name the new file - loadfirst.txt or optdepends.txt or whatever - but do NOT go changing the contents of depends.txt
22:27 celeron55     and i'm not trying to be different, i'm trying to set up a good base for the years to come
22:27 VanessaE      you do nothing but make things hard for modders AND users then
22:27 PilzAdam      so, if mods use this feature, they more or less depend on it, and shouldnt be able to run on old servers
22:27 celeron55     accumulating all kinds of cruft infinitely will lead to only crap
22:27 celeron55     PilzAdam: there isn't such problem, because it's optional - it just ends up being not used while it actually does exist
22:27 VanessaE      PilzAdam: the whole idea is that if modB runs on the old server and can't find modA, that's okay - because the support for modA's functions was supposed to be optional anyway
22:28 PilzAdam      what if modB depends on the non-existance of modA and uses the system like that?
22:28 VanessaE      in the example I gave, moretrees installed on a pre-loadfirst server would simply not be able to see moreblocks in most cases, and would simply not enable the creation of stairs et.al.
22:28 celeron55     VanessaE: you can't imagine what we would have ended up by now if i had preserved absolute backwards compatibility in everything since 2011
22:29 PilzAdam      it wouldnt be able to run on old servers with modA then
22:29 hmmmm         we'd have a Windows
22:29 hmmmm         :)
22:29 VanessaE      celeron55: I didn't say everything had to be backward compatible - I'm saying you gotta do whatever to can to soften the blow to modders and users.
22:29 VanessaE      and my suggestion is the best way, exact filenames asiode.
22:29 celeron55     VanessaE: that's the same thing
22:29 VanessaE      aside8
22:30 celeron55     i told you a way that softens it plenty, and you didn't really even read it, or understand it
22:30 VanessaE      PilzAdam: indeed, it wouldn't.  But it would be a matter of that same optional code - that's the whole point - that modB should be able to *adapt* to the presence of modA, and a reliable way of detecting modA needs to be established.
22:31 VanessaE      celeron55: I read it, and understood it.  you're trying to overcomplicate it by supporting it in two different ways (? and a separate file), which is guaranteed to break servers.
22:31 celeron55     VanessaE: what the fuck man
22:31 VanessaE      one method.  one separate file.  clean as a whistle.
22:31 celeron55     GUARANTEED?
22:31 PilzAdam      VanessaE, but you never know how modders understand and use the system
22:32 VanessaE      PilzAdam: precisely.
22:32 PilzAdam      so my point is 100% valid
22:32 VanessaE      you just made my argument for me.
22:32 celeron55     VanessaE: how old is the oldest minetest server that runs your newest mods?
22:32 VanessaE      if you can't trust modders not to use a feature the wrong way, how can you trust USERS not to do so?
22:32 PilzAdam      if mods use new features and the server doesnt have it crash insteaf of dont telling the mod that it doesnt exist
22:33 PilzAdam      celeron55, darkrose has a 0.3.1
22:33 VanessaE      celeron55: had we had optional dependencies here and there, probably all the way back to when I started.
22:33 PilzAdam      +server
22:33 celeron55     PilzAdam: that does not run mods?
22:33 PilzAdam      oh, didnt read the mods parts
22:33 VanessaE      (which is a bit over a year ago)
22:33 celeron55     VanessaE: so at which version did you start?
22:34 VanessaE      celeron55: just before 0.4.0.
22:34 VanessaE      well 0.3.1 but I didn't use it for more than a couple of days.
22:34 celeron55     so plants_lib runs on 0.4.0?
22:34 celeron55     that's complete bullshit
22:34 VanessaE      did I say that?
22:34 celeron55     or whatever your mods are
22:34 VanessaE      now you're putting words into my mouth
22:35 celeron55     i asked which is the oldest version of MT that runs the newest versions of your mods
22:35 VanessaE      I'm not sure - I've simply lost track by now.
22:35 celeron55     i am going to base the migration time from optdepends.txt to ? from that, and then you will agree assuming you are sane
22:36 VanessaE      celeron55: let's put it this way, some people still run for example 0.4.4.
22:36 celeron55     okay, so half a year will do well
22:36 hmmmm         people who still run 0.4.4 are certifiably crazy
22:36 hmmmm         newer versions of minetest have infinitely improved in a ridiculous amount of ways
22:36 VanessaE      hmmmm: maybe so, but tell that to redcrab.
22:37 hmmmm         it's just unthinkable to use 0.4.4 when there's so much better
22:37 VanessaE      hell, tell that to darkrose  :)
22:37 hmmmm         maybe they haven't been keeping up with how much has changed
22:37 VanessaE      (actually redcrab runs 0.4.5 by now I think)
22:37 hmmmm         all of it is for the better though
22:37 VanessaE      and that is the point I'm trying to make
22:37 PilzAdam      hmmmm, note that you cant port maps from 0.4.5 to 0.4.6
22:38 VanessaE      it IS for the better, I agree
22:38 hmmmm         that was such a blunder
22:38 hmmmm         all because of the exception handling
22:38 hmmmm         anyway i thought you had released a patch version right after, with that fixed?
22:39 PilzAdam      there was no official build of that
22:39 celeron55     stable versions are always funny; stable basically means (in any software) that it will either be stablely working or stablely broken 8)
22:40 hmmmm         right :(
22:40 celeron55     nothing is stopping you from releasing 0.4.7 though
22:40 PilzAdam      http://devopsreactions.tumblr.com/post/44776341195/bug-reports-after-a-new-release
22:41 hmmmm         lots of features in upstream are pretty unstable
22:41 celeron55     one commit is enough to increase the patch version by one; there's absolutely no reason to spare them
22:41 hmmmm         e.g. hud api
22:41 PilzAdam      we have decided to merge leveldb for 0.4.7
22:41 hmmmm         that too
22:41 hmmmm         although maybe it's a better idea to hold off
22:41 celeron55     that sounds like you should decide to do it after 0.4.7 8)
22:42 hmmmm         there isn't as much third party support for leveldb
22:42 celeron55     always when you think "we have to do this big thing for version X", the wisest thing to do is first release something you know definitely works, and then start working on the big thing
22:42 VanessaE      also consider that 0.3.x is still present as the standard version in ubuntu repositories.  How long do you suppose the first 0.4.x release that makes it there will stay?
22:42 celeron55     hmmmm: i'm worried about that too; it's pretty much the end for easy-to-make third party map tools
22:42 PilzAdam      doesnt the leveldb pull request include an option to choose whether to use sqlite or leveldb? so people can choose what they want
22:43 celeron55     VanessaE: they know it will be immediately old, so they don't put 0.4 in there
22:43 celeron55     packagers aren't very dumb 8)
22:43 hmmmm         yeah but who in their right minds would use sqlite when given a better option
22:43 VanessaE      celeron55: so they shall just keep 0.3.x forever then?
22:43 hmmmm         and then you'd have a third party tool that works for some people and not for others
22:43 hmmmm         and then somebody will "upload their map" and whoops, it's an incompatible version because leveldb support hasn't been compiled in
22:44 kahrl         VanessaE: well there is supposed to be a 0.5.0 when the lua API is reasonably stable
22:44 PilzAdam      hmmmm, do you choose it when compiling or when creating the map?
22:44 hmmmm         when compiling, no??
22:44 VanessaE      kahrl: and how long do you figure the ubuntu et.al repos will keep 0.5.0 then, given how long 0.3.x has stuck around?
22:44 PilzAdam      dunno
22:44 hmmmm         i've never used it
22:45 VanessaE      PilzAdam: I believe it's chosen at map-creation tine, defaulting to sqlite
22:45 celeron55     0.5.0 sounds like something where people will have huge pressure to put enormous amounts of experimental stuff in and then it's the most broken thing ever
22:45 * celeron55   knows how people do things
22:46 hmmmm         0.5.0 will have fully hardware lighting
22:46 hmmmm         mapgen v8
22:46 hmmmm         a toaster
22:46 hmmmm         voxel area entities
22:46 kahrl         nah, we need to learn from firefox et al. mapgen v42
22:47 hmmmm         lock-free environment
22:47 celeron55     minetest 50
22:47 hmmmm         the user doesn't need to look at the version number anymore
22:47 celeron55     let's just start using an integer version number
22:47 hmmmm         all they need to know is that they're using the latest
22:47 hmmmm         </endquote>
22:47 celeron55     the next one will be minetest 2
22:47 celeron55     8D
22:48 celeron55     everyone will hate us forever
22:48 hmmmm         and remove all the options too
22:48 troller       .version = unix timestamp of commit
22:48 PilzAdam      VanessaE, there is no documentation in minetest.conf.example, but it seems its saved in world.mt
22:48 VanessaE      PilzAdam: which, the database backend?
22:48 troller       v1367102917
22:48 PilzAdam      in the leveldb pull request
22:49 VanessaE      that sounds right - I haven't looked into the whole thing in a while.
22:49 PilzAdam      it needs some better documentation
22:49 celeron55     troller: let's use sha1 hashed unix timestamps as versions
22:49 hmmmm         hey... rolling release
22:49 celeron55     troller: then nobody truly has any idea of it
22:50 PilzAdam      there is also a new command line parameter "migrate" if I read the code right
22:50 troller       celeron55, just git commit
22:50 VanessaE      PilzAdam: yes
22:50 VanessaE      troller:  no, commit date+time.
22:50 troller       v0fb9567f1394646a71d42aa9bd7e6da8343c9784
22:50 kahrl         does it just migrate from sqlite to leveldb? or both directions?
22:50 VanessaE      nothing more complicated is needed.
22:51 PilzAdam      kahrl, since there is no documentation we can only guess
22:51 troller       v1367102917.0fb9567f1394646a71d42aa9bd7e6da8343c9784 - more sortable
22:51 celeron55     troller: and let's make version nicknames using this http://wiki.yak.net/589/Bubble_Babble_Encoding.txt
22:53 celeron55     kahrl: i think it can do both
22:53 PilzAdam      related to version number discussion: http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=81129#p81129
22:53 celeron55     thexyz is the one to answer
22:53 VanessaE      I wish we could get back to the subject we started on - soft depends that is.
22:53 PilzAdam      just use a "random thing" as the version number :D
22:54 celeron55     VanessaE: it's decided already, for the relevant part (arguably nothing else even is relevant than the decision that it shall be made)
22:55 celeron55     (reading stuff from files is simpler than figuring out how to make the algorithm do softdepends)
22:58 troller       btw - i have no "public servers" button in official win 0.4.6 build - its my bug?
22:59 PilzAdam      does it have cURL support compiled in?
22:59 troller       i dont know
22:59 troller       thexyz, !!!!
22:59 troller       PilzAdam, its works in your builds
23:00 troller       libcurl.dll included
23:00 PilzAdam      seems like they dont have cURL support, is there a "Public" checkbox in the advanced tab?
23:01 celeron55     wut
23:02 celeron55     where's all the QA? 8)
23:02 troller       PilzAdam, no
23:02 troller       very bad for official build
23:03 troller       and 24.03.13 — minetest/minetest@73a5e987f4352ebeda8ba122d1be60316ae7784e - have no curl too
23:04 troller       but 0.4.5 - ok
23:11 PilzAdam      bye
23:55 hmmmm         ahhgh
23:55 hmmmm         i think i have it right where i want it!
23:55 VanessaE      uh oh
23:55 hmmmm         http://ompldr.org/vaThzZQ
23:55 VanessaE      holy shit
23:58 ShadowNinja   Neat! Could that be stretched out to make ravines?
23:58 hmmmm         that is a ravine
23:59 VanessaE      I think he means ravines that stretch for hundreds of meters in length (X/Z) perhaps
23:59 hmmmm         yup, that's not happening
23:59 hmmmm         this needs to fit in a chunk
23:59 ShadowNinja   ohm looked round from that perspective
23:59 ShadowNinja   oh, *