| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
hmmmm |
proller, those two on_generate calls are running all the time |
| 00:00 |
hmmmm |
so now air generation for regular maps will take even more time |
| 00:01 |
PilzAdam |
we can disable them if we had a interface to read map_meta.txt |
| 00:02 |
hmmmm |
why use the old perlin noise functions? |
| 00:02 |
hmmmm |
what's wrong with perlin noise maps? |
| 00:15 |
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| 01:07 |
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| 01:07 |
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| 03:02 |
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| 07:00 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: it should be relatively obvious that i fully support option 2 |
| 07:03 |
celeron55 |
just don't let minecraft influence you too much; that doesn't really make any good; mainly because it completely limits Minetest to people who just want Minecraft for free or want FOSS |
| 07:03 |
celeron55 |
minetest_game should be something that's worthy on it's own |
| 07:07 |
celeron55 |
actually... i guess we could start an another official game and leave minetest_game as-is |
| 07:08 |
celeron55 |
i don't know if it's wise |
| 07:08 |
celeron55 |
it is a 100% fact that we cannot please everyone at the same time; people should first learn to deal with that |
| 07:09 |
celeron55 |
with minetest we kind of can; with a game, nope |
| 07:11 |
celeron55 |
so, let's imagine we started a game called "survival" |
| 07:11 |
celeron55 |
how would the mod composition of that be? would it contain a mod named "default"? |
| 07:12 |
celeron55 |
the initial idea (as designed by me and kahrl) was that a game should mainly contain a mod, the name of which is same as the name of the game |
| 07:13 |
celeron55 |
we could take the current default and just put it in the survival game, but we need a way to not need to copy all changes from the default of minetest_game into there |
| 07:14 |
celeron55 |
the way could be that the default is just left as-is everywhere and to minetest_game we add a mod called minetest_game, and to survival a mod called survival, which contain the rest of the core things in the games |
| 07:14 |
celeron55 |
then default kind of specifies the common base of all games built on minetest |
| 07:15 |
celeron55 |
which is a good thing |
| 07:15 |
celeron55 |
and very backwards-compatible with everything, without considerable downsides (?) |
| 07:21 |
celeron55 |
i also propose that default is rolled backwards a bit, at least making mese as it originally was; it just doesn't seem to work for people now |
| 07:22 |
celeron55 |
or at least the original texture is put back |
| 07:22 |
celeron55 |
and the mese ore thing is removed |
| 07:22 |
celeron55 |
or, well... i don't really know; i feel that if i still actually played minetest, the mese change would have really made me mad |
| 07:26 |
celeron55 |
anyway, that isn't as important; the point here is that i suggest that default is never touched anymore, but is rather copied as-is to new games with new features in a game-specific mod (people are free to not use default too, but it will make many mods unable to work) |
| 07:33 |
celeron55 |
and i suggest that we put a couple of games in the official distribution, each having a real point in them; the initial games could be "survive" and "build" |
| 07:36 |
celeron55 |
the rule for adding games is that there should be as few as possible, but as many as required |
| 07:36 |
celeron55 |
8) |
| 07:37 |
celeron55 |
if the engine some day supports something like gravitation- and sunlight-less games, then a game called "space_survive" would be added |
| 07:39 |
celeron55 |
(that one wouldn't have any use for default) |
| 07:44 |
celeron55 |
i would want people to focus on the official games, but making new different kind of ones is encouraged; they may be included in the official distribution if they're good; i could imagine many different games but won't mention any (at least now) |
| 07:45 |
celeron55 |
well, actually i will, because the point is much clearer that way: a possible one would be a "roguelike" with the world consisting solely of dungeons and many things being doable with spells |
| 07:48 |
celeron55 |
a not possible one is minetest_game with pink graphics and 10 added ores, because there is no point in that |
| 08:13 |
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| 08:41 |
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| 09:24 |
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| 10:21 |
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| 10:29 |
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| 10:41 |
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| 10:43 |
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| 10:54 |
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| 10:54 |
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| 11:11 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: log |
| 11:12 |
PilzAdam |
already read it |
| 11:12 |
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| 11:13 |
celeron55 |
well, what do you think? |
| 11:14 |
PilzAdam |
I generally like the idea of 2 games, "survive" and "build", in the official releases |
| 11:14 |
PilzAdam |
but as of now, default isnt read |
| 11:14 |
celeron55 |
read? |
| 11:14 |
PilzAdam |
*ready |
| 11:15 |
PilzAdam |
there is too much content missing that would fit survival and build gameplay |
| 11:15 |
celeron55 |
so do you think it should not be included in those games, or that it should be prepared for such usage? |
| 11:16 |
PilzAdam |
I think we should develop default in a general direction and add more content that is usefull for both gameplay types |
| 11:17 |
celeron55 |
could work |
| 11:19 |
celeron55 |
"default" would be defined as the base for minecraft-like games; things in common are certain nodes (especially for the terrain) and world generation |
| 11:20 |
celeron55 |
(and something else, probably) |
| 11:23 |
celeron55 |
i wonder how the development of default should be organized |
| 11:24 |
celeron55 |
i guess just do it in minetest_game for now, and update to other games as the developers of them feel like it |
| 11:30 |
celeron55 |
in the long run it might require some mechanism for having common mods between games... something like this: have "common_mods = default, whatever" in game.conf, and have the special gameid "common" so that the engine will grab mods defined in that way from mods/common/<modname> |
| 11:30 |
celeron55 |
there are some challenges in this |
| 11:31 |
celeron55 |
if default is put in $path_share/mods/common/default, how is that handled in version control? |
| 11:32 |
PilzAdam |
maybe but it in $path_share/games/common, since only games load them |
| 11:32 |
celeron55 |
putting it in the engine repo isn't really an option; it simply isn't meant for such |
| 11:32 |
PilzAdam |
(so we have an own repo for it, like minetest_game currently) |
| 11:33 |
celeron55 |
ah, yeah, games/common/<modname> is better |
| 11:33 |
celeron55 |
...maybe |
| 11:34 |
celeron55 |
actually no |
| 11:35 |
celeron55 |
that structure would kind of imply that the mods in there would work as a game when combined |
| 11:35 |
celeron55 |
while they can be totally incompatible |
| 11:35 |
PilzAdam |
maybe put something in game.conf |
| 11:35 |
PilzAdam |
or put no game.conf at all in it |
| 11:36 |
celeron55 |
it's probably still better than mods/common because it would be too easy for a user to accidentally delete the common ones |
| 11:36 |
celeron55 |
as users generally mess around in mods/ but not in games/ |
| 11:37 |
PilzAdam |
how does minetest currently handle games that have no game.conf? |
| 11:37 |
celeron55 |
that's unimportant; we can now define that such a one is not a game |
| 11:38 |
celeron55 |
because there are no compatibility issues in that |
| 11:41 |
celeron55 |
more comments from anyone else? |
| 11:42 |
celeron55 |
i don't want to force some design that most people disagree with, but i will take silence as agreeing |
| 12:40 |
|
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| 12:48 |
proller |
maybe try make simple deathmatch mode? with random spawn in area, hiding far players names, and frag counter ? |
| 12:48 |
proller |
next step - team DM, and next - CTF |
| 12:50 |
rsiska |
proller: that sounds awesome. we need ace of spades-like mod. |
| 12:52 |
celeron55 |
proller: well, assuming somebody makes it and it's actually a fun game, there is no reason why it shouldn't exist |
| 13:04 |
Exio |
add guns, and KillerTest \o/ |
| 13:04 |
celeron55 |
we'll need to define whether survival contains PVP or not, though, and whether it's setting is more modern than MC's or not |
| 13:05 |
Exio |
what should be "pvp-only"? |
| 13:05 |
celeron55 |
altough, probably for the ace of spades liking people that wouldn't be enough anyway |
| 13:06 |
celeron55 |
so something like that could be made too |
| 13:07 |
proller |
Exio, http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?id=4562 |
| 13:07 |
Exio |
kaeza's guns mod? |
| 13:08 |
Exio |
(droid - slow network) |
| 13:13 |
|
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| 13:18 |
proller |
yes |
| 14:37 |
|
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| 15:25 |
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| 16:30 |
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| 16:30 |
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| 16:56 |
celeron55 |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/556 |
| 16:56 |
PilzAdam |
is that your first pull request to minetest? |
| 16:57 |
celeron55 |
it actually is |
| 17:00 |
celeron55 |
shall i make the "common" repo on github.com/minetest? there's some documentation and updating to do before it can be actually taken into use though (as you'll need one more repo to make minetest_game work) |
| 17:00 |
|
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| 17:00 |
hmmmm |
woah, wall of text in the logs |
| 17:00 |
celeron55 |
actually, hmm... maybe we could just cram common + all the games in one repo |
| 17:00 |
celeron55 |
would be much easier |
| 17:02 |
hmmmm |
for the record, i support the recent mese changes, i feel that it makes a lot of sense |
| 17:04 |
rubenwardy |
I agree that is does make sense, but it also distorts the personality of Minetest |
| 17:04 |
rubenwardy |
maybe |
| 17:05 |
hmmmm |
the engine can support sunlight-less games right now thanks to setLighting(), it can be all a uniform level, like pitch black, and you can place some light sources in the generated map that'd light things up, or however you'd like to do it. if you have a grander idea for alternative lighting, you'd need to be more specific |
| 17:08 |
hmmmm |
so, why don't you commit your pull requests on your own? |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
i agree with the common idea, it makes a lot of sense, but that's almost like builtin but with game content rather than globally-shared functions |
| 17:09 |
PilzAdam |
<celeron55> i don't want to force some design that most people disagree with |
| 17:09 |
hmmmm |
he took silence as agreeing |
| 17:10 |
|
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| 17:12 |
hmmmm |
i'll do a quick mockup of what a space mapgen would look like |
| 17:15 |
celeron55 |
such a space thing would also require the sun/moon/day turned off, and a good amount of always-present light to make things practical (both could be simple settings transferred from the server to the client) |
| 17:15 |
celeron55 |
but... that's not really the problem at hand now |
| 17:15 |
hmmmm |
having it permanently set to night should be easy enough |
| 17:19 |
celeron55 |
so are people ready for moving default out from minetest_game right now? PilzAdam? |
| 17:19 |
PilzAdam |
yea |
| 17:20 |
PilzAdam |
fire and bucket could be move too |
| 17:20 |
PilzAdam |
since every game will use them |
| 17:20 |
PilzAdam |
(doors and stairs too) |
| 17:20 |
celeron55 |
well, not every |
| 17:20 |
PilzAdam |
but many |
| 17:20 |
celeron55 |
but pretty much all that will use default |
| 17:21 |
RealBadAngel |
btw, thx to khonkortisian help i got 6d facedir ready and WELL tested. just docs need to be written |
| 17:21 |
hmmmm |
awesome :)! |
| 17:21 |
hmmmm |
ahh which reminds me, we need to update leveldb stuff. |
| 17:21 |
RealBadAngel |
i will write docs tommorow and pull it then |
| 17:24 |
hmmmm |
can we get a pull request for luajit too? |
| 17:24 |
PilzAdam |
AFAIK noone has managed to create a working cmake file for it |
| 17:24 |
RealBadAngel |
youre asking me to do so? |
| 17:26 |
RealBadAngel |
i do have workin cmake |
| 17:26 |
RealBadAngel |
but its a mess |
| 17:26 |
RealBadAngel |
it creates minilua and some other shit too |
| 17:27 |
RealBadAngel |
and one thing |
| 17:27 |
RealBadAngel |
it comes with kinda asm module |
| 17:28 |
RealBadAngel |
im not quite sure but its supposed to translate lua stuff into asm |
| 17:28 |
RealBadAngel |
and it is multiplatform |
| 17:29 |
hmmmm |
as long as it falls back to something if the platform isn't supported, it's fine |
| 17:29 |
hmmmm |
it's not like having assembly in the minetest codebase is the most horrible thing ever |
| 17:30 |
hmmmm |
btw i hope you're not trying to compile LuaJIT with your cmake file |
| 17:30 |
hmmmm |
it's a dependency that we don't include, like Irrlicht |
| 17:31 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: https://github.com/minetest/common |
| 17:31 |
RealBadAngel |
http://luajit.org/dynasm.html |
| 17:31 |
hmmmm |
oh that's different |
| 17:35 |
PilzAdam |
wtf, "Logos 75.1%" |
| 17:35 |
RealBadAngel |
imho thats a very interesting feature |
| 17:35 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: lol |
| 17:36 |
RealBadAngel |
and btw, VanessaE server running luajit lately means she has this feature enabled too |
| 17:37 |
RealBadAngel |
dynasm is a dependency |
| 17:37 |
PilzAdam |
celeron55, I cant push to the repo |
| 17:39 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: now you should be able to |
| 17:40 |
PilzAdam |
yep |
| 17:46 |
PilzAdam |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/pull/153 |
| 17:46 |
celeron55 |
added README.txt and buildwin32.sh updates to the pull request |
| 17:47 |
PilzAdam |
"1 addition and 10,324 deletions." |
| 17:47 |
celeron55 |
that is pretty effective 8) |
| 17:48 |
PilzAdam |
also add something to lua-api.txt |
| 17:56 |
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| 18:04 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: done |
| 18:06 |
celeron55 |
merge now? |
| 18:06 |
VanessaE |
*looks at log*... um, should I be concerned about these changes? :) |
| 18:06 |
PilzAdam |
yep |
| 18:06 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: you merge mine, i merge yours! |
| 18:07 |
PilzAdam |
okay |
| 18:09 |
celeron55 |
it still works 8) |
| 18:09 |
PilzAdam |
why the merge-commit? |
| 18:10 |
celeron55 |
because i'm lazy |
| 18:11 |
celeron55 |
did i mess up your carefully crafted commit history? :P |
| 18:11 |
celeron55 |
well, i'll rebase it |
| 18:11 |
PilzAdam |
:D |
| 18:12 |
celeron55 |
done! |
| 18:13 |
celeron55 |
half a day worth of thinking and coding, and the end result: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5r3mdpY2K1qbaj4uo1_400.jpg |
| 18:14 |
PilzAdam |
true, for the end-user, nothing has changed |
| 18:14 |
celeron55 |
however, hopefully this will let people organize better |
| 18:14 |
VanessaE |
guess I have to tweak my build script... |
| 18:15 |
PilzAdam |
I write something into the changelog |
| 18:20 |
celeron55 |
so, next is some kind of default configuration overlaying according to a game's predefined settings |
| 18:21 |
celeron55 |
that's the single other thing required for making this actually work reasonably in practice |
| 18:24 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, can you telll me what was the odds for nodes def being able to change on the fly? |
| 18:24 |
RealBadAngel |
bkvl or something like this tree |
| 18:25 |
RealBadAngel |
data stored in meta |
| 18:26 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: it's not ready yet because it requires other changes in order to make it's save format reasonably stable; i have no way of guessing when it will be ready |
| 18:26 |
celeron55 |
i do not want any pieces of legacy crap to hang in there because of bad initial decisions |
| 18:27 |
RealBadAngel |
so what is the right initial decision? |
| 18:28 |
RealBadAngel |
i guess using meta was a shortcut, yes? |
| 18:34 |
celeron55 |
using meta is probably the correct way, but the format going into there requires rework |
| 18:36 |
RealBadAngel |
one question, what if node is already using meta? by modder |
| 18:38 |
celeron55 |
it uses a single field in there |
| 18:38 |
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| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
meta is a string |
| 18:38 |
RealBadAngel |
many modders treat it like a single value |
| 18:38 |
celeron55 |
i don't see a problem |
| 18:39 |
RealBadAngel |
i was doing so before: meta=30 (charge=30) |
| 18:40 |
celeron55 |
? |
| 18:40 |
PilzAdam |
RealBadAngel, itemstack meta is different from node meta |
| 18:40 |
RealBadAngel |
so whole meta served for holding one value |
| 18:40 |
PilzAdam |
in itemstack meta you have only 1 string |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
oh, yes, youre right |
| 18:41 |
RealBadAngel |
sorry |
| 18:43 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, so what about the format? |
| 18:43 |
celeron55 |
holy hell (once again)... i don't understand how i had the time to even code this; meta_set_nodedef_2 is huge |
| 18:44 |
celeron55 |
the format needs to be perfect, and it isn't |
| 18:44 |
celeron55 |
not much more to say than that |
| 18:44 |
RealBadAngel |
you did that in one evening afaik |
| 18:46 |
RealBadAngel |
other way: if you state something is wrong, please do so |
| 18:46 |
RealBadAngel |
tell what is wrong |
| 18:49 |
RealBadAngel |
6d facedir will cut textures, nodes defs by half at least. bkvl is another half |
| 18:49 |
ShadowNinja |
RealBadAngel: did you see my message about forcefields? |
| 18:49 |
RealBadAngel |
ShadowNinja, yes. you got rights. feel free to change whats necessary |
| 18:50 |
RealBadAngel |
i merged your initial commit |
| 18:50 |
celeron55 |
have you tried rebasing meta_set_nodedef_2 on top of current master? |
| 18:51 |
celeron55 |
i wonder how much of a PITA that is |
| 18:51 |
RealBadAngel |
i guess it will be pain in the ass |
| 18:51 |
RealBadAngel |
2 weeks with my current work costed me 2 days of rebasing thx to ctl |
| 18:52 |
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| 18:52 |
* ShadowNinja |
needs a better way to make backups than cp, maybe something with rsync? |
| 18:53 |
RealBadAngel |
ShadowNinja, btw, you should add on/off switch |
| 18:55 |
ShadowNinja |
mesecons or setting the range to 0 |
| 18:55 |
RealBadAngel |
if net is not capable of dealin with needs, user should be able to decide |
| 18:56 |
RealBadAngel |
maybe just switch in formspec? |
| 18:56 |
RealBadAngel |
im not sure, up to you |
| 18:56 |
ShadowNinja |
I also forgot to change something in the node counter, I will have to lower the power requirement a bit |
| 18:56 |
ShadowNinja |
I could do that |
| 18:58 |
RealBadAngel |
but on the other hand it may end good |
| 18:58 |
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| 18:58 |
RealBadAngel |
look, mv is not ultimate power source |
| 18:59 |
RealBadAngel |
user is able to power field but with problems |
| 18:59 |
RealBadAngel |
let the user build hv network to get rid of it |
| 19:00 |
celeron55 |
so about where i left off when RealBadAngel came asking unrelated things: |
| 19:00 |
RealBadAngel |
so in effect mv would be able to power small fields |
| 19:01 |
RealBadAngel |
hehe |
| 19:02 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, ill catch you again when im done with 6dfacedir |
| 19:06 |
celeron55 |
"some kind of default configuration overlaying according to a game's predefined settings" <- minetest should work so that a game can provide a settings.conf, that will be used to override the provided default settings on top of what defaultsettings.cpp contains (overriding the default values, but not actual values), so that when a user doesn't specify anything else and you start the awesome whatever game you have made, the game can ... |
| 19:06 |
ShadowNinja |
RealBadAngel: technic/ores.lua:71: attempt to call global 'register_stair_slab_panel_micro' (a nil value) |
| 19:06 |
celeron55 |
... set things directly in the server's settings that don't currently happen to be available in any other way (like map generator, map generator parameters, player physics and whatever), but not override any settings the user has made, and not make them to be saved in global configuration |
| 19:08 |
PilzAdam |
so basically a minetest.conf for each world, that overrides stuff from minetest.conf at startup? |
| 19:08 |
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| 19:08 |
ShadowNinja |
on, each game |
| 19:09 |
ShadowNinja |
like low gravity for a moon game |
| 19:09 |
PilzAdam |
and the settings are collected from 1) minetest.conf 2) Lua 3) defaultsettings.cpp |
| 19:09 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: >overrides stuff from minetest.conf |
| 19:10 |
celeron55 |
no, it won't override anything |
| 19:10 |
celeron55 |
it just sets the defaults |
| 19:10 |
PilzAdam |
I mean if a setting is in minetest.conf and world.conf then the one from world.conf is taken |
| 19:10 |
celeron55 |
to understand this, you first need to understand what the Settings class is able to do |
| 19:11 |
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| 19:11 |
celeron55 |
it has two classes (not the programming term) of settings; one is default settings, the other is actual settings |
| 19:12 |
celeron55 |
when it is queryed a setting, it will first look up an actual setting and return it; if not, it will give the default one |
| 19:12 |
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| 19:12 |
celeron55 |
the stuff from defaultsettings.cpp gets loaded onto the default settings, and then stuff from minetest.conf gets loaded to the actual settings |
| 19:12 |
celeron55 |
this change would add a second step after defaultsettings.cpp, to override it's defaults with whatever the game wants to set them |
| 19:12 |
PilzAdam |
ah |
| 19:13 |
celeron55 |
defaults are never saved anywhere |
| 19:13 |
celeron55 |
actual settings are |
| 19:14 |
RealBadAngel |
imho gravity shall be a biome setting |
| 19:15 |
RealBadAngel |
core biome g=0,5 or something |
| 19:15 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: nope; it should be per-player so that mods can do whatever they want with it |
| 19:15 |
celeron55 |
--- |
| 19:15 |
RealBadAngel |
but look |
| 19:15 |
RealBadAngel |
aeather biome, fly |
| 19:16 |
RealBadAngel |
30000, outer space, no grav |
| 19:16 |
hmmmm |
eeeeeeeee |
| 19:16 |
hmmmm |
i sort of agree |
| 19:16 |
ShadowNinja |
if player in space then gravity=0 end |
| 19:16 |
RealBadAngel |
y is the key |
| 19:17 |
proller |
maybe 0.0001 |
| 19:17 |
celeron55 |
RealBadAngel: think of a game that has only space |
| 19:17 |
hmmmm |
we'll figure out the implementation details some other time when we actually have biomes in the map generator |
| 19:17 |
proller |
for returnins |
| 19:17 |
hmmmm |
i need to seriously finish up v7 |
| 19:17 |
RealBadAngel |
celeron55, sure |
| 19:17 |
hmmmm |
also, why is everything about "time" with celeron |
| 19:17 |
RealBadAngel |
but think of our existin already worlds |
| 19:18 |
hmmmm |
i think people should just slow down |
| 19:18 |
RealBadAngel |
slow down? |
| 19:18 |
hmmmm |
yeah |
| 19:18 |
RealBadAngel |
i will slow down when i will lie in my coffin |
| 19:18 |
hmmmm |
it's always like - "it took half a day to do this" or "yeah but i did it really fast" or "i am wasting my time here" or whatever |
| 19:19 |
celeron55 |
i don't think i do that that much |
| 19:20 |
RealBadAngel |
you both know i was impatient before |
| 19:20 |
RealBadAngel |
i mean c55 and hmm now |
| 19:20 |
hmmmm |
i didn't really get that vibe |
| 19:20 |
RealBadAngel |
my last changes are slowed down |
| 19:20 |
RealBadAngel |
i learned a bit |
| 19:20 |
celeron55 |
RBA always seems to be in a hurry |
| 19:21 |
RealBadAngel |
with ideas yes |
| 19:21 |
RealBadAngel |
with code im more careful now |
| 19:22 |
RealBadAngel |
and im not leavin whitespaces behind me lol ;) |
| 19:22 |
RealBadAngel |
it was a hard lesson but i got it |
| 19:23 |
celeron55 |
PilzAdam: i think i'll indeed call it minetest.conf in the game too |
| 19:24 |
PilzAdam |
with a note that people shouldnt edit this one |
| 19:24 |
celeron55 |
it's a bit of a hack overally, but it's a simple and harmless hack that gives much features |
| 19:25 |
celeron55 |
and should be relatively easy to maintain compatibility with |
| 19:31 |
RealBadAngel |
again bout gravity |
| 19:31 |
RealBadAngel |
gravity shall depend on height |
| 19:31 |
RealBadAngel |
true or false? |
| 19:31 |
proller |
true |
| 19:31 |
PilzAdam |
should be doable in mod |
| 19:32 |
proller |
farscale func ready |
| 19:32 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, you would make everythin moddable |
| 19:32 |
RealBadAngel |
hehe |
| 19:33 |
RealBadAngel |
thats a genuine physics question |
| 19:33 |
PilzAdam |
just add the graviti settings to player sao and cao and add some functions to lua to change it |
| 19:34 |
RealBadAngel |
you know what? |
| 19:34 |
RealBadAngel |
i brought here a few days ago whole family as new players |
| 19:35 |
RealBadAngel |
ive spent whole evening to do so |
| 19:35 |
RealBadAngel |
theyre playin now but |
| 19:35 |
RealBadAngel |
1) no installer |
| 19:35 |
RealBadAngel |
2) no shortcuts |
| 19:36 |
RealBadAngel |
3) wtf iz 7z |
| 19:36 |
RealBadAngel |
think about it |
| 19:37 |
RealBadAngel |
we are devs, we can live with builds |
| 19:38 |
RealBadAngel |
but even we do catch new user, willin to try |
| 19:38 |
RealBadAngel |
we are losing most of them tryyin to run the game |
| 19:39 |
proller |
+1 |
| 19:39 |
proller |
game must be very simple to run |
| 19:40 |
RealBadAngel |
click n play |
| 19:41 |
hmmmm |
you know what, i think there needs to be an organizational change... i am considering merging BiomeDefManager into EmergeManager |
| 19:41 |
PilzAdam |
the win build is easy to run, just download the zip, extract it and doubleclick minetest.exe |
| 19:41 |
RealBadAngel |
that is most important feature we are missinf rite now |
| 19:41 |
VanessaE |
http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=77600#p77600 |
| 19:41 |
VanessaE |
speaking of new builds... |
| 19:42 |
RealBadAngel |
PilzAdam, so why win builds are 7z? |
| 19:42 |
PilzAdam |
only sfan5's are IIRC |
| 19:43 |
proller |
and maybe make simpler multiplayer run - maybe default tab with loaded list of servers |
| 19:43 |
RealBadAngel |
sure, i shall tell then my friedns 6yrs old son to use certain builds |
| 19:44 |
RealBadAngel |
notice he is able to play minecraft |
| 19:44 |
proller |
and autofill username if empty field on run |
| 19:44 |
PilzAdam |
the official build is zip |
| 19:44 |
celeron55 |
"use certain builds"... ehm? go to minetest.net, click "download", click "Minetest 0.4.5 (zip)"... guess what you get? duh, zip. |
| 19:45 |
RealBadAngel |
rolling rolling ;) |
| 19:46 |
proller |
and need to make Servers tab on site |
| 19:46 |
RealBadAngel |
we are too fast with features but missed the basics |
| 19:47 |
RealBadAngel |
game in current state is usable and configureable ONLY by community members |
| 19:50 |
RealBadAngel |
fuck, theres even no exit to OS from main menu |
| 19:52 |
RealBadAngel |
you want to attract new players with IQ requirement 150+ and expierience in c++? |
| 19:53 |
RealBadAngel |
wheres gettext in menu? |
| 19:54 |
RealBadAngel |
"Please select your language" |
| 19:57 |
RealBadAngel |
im pointing out now things devs do not see |
| 19:57 |
RealBadAngel |
and what my friends told me when i was trying to convince then to play mt |
| 19:58 |
PilzAdam |
who said that we dont know about these things? |
| 19:58 |
RealBadAngel |
facts |
| 19:58 |
RealBadAngel |
face them |
| 20:00 |
PilzAdam |
that doesnt make sense |
| 20:00 |
RealBadAngel |
it does |
| 20:00 |
RealBadAngel |
stop bein dev for a while |
| 20:01 |
RealBadAngel |
you find, you click and??? |
| 20:01 |
RealBadAngel |
nothin |
| 20:01 |
PilzAdam |
<RealBadAngel> im pointing out now things devs do not see <- who said that we dont see these things? |
| 20:02 |
RealBadAngel |
if its not done yet |
| 20:02 |
RealBadAngel |
it means we are all blind |
| 20:02 |
PilzAdam |
maybe we just dont care |
| 20:02 |
RealBadAngel |
i do care |
| 20:02 |
PilzAdam |
then code it |
| 20:03 |
RealBadAngel |
haha |
| 20:03 |
RealBadAngel |
its not one folks i would love to |
| 20:04 |
RealBadAngel |
i really love this guy for his abilities |
| 20:05 |
RealBadAngel |
when something important pops up he leave |
| 20:08 |
|
iqualfragile joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:09 |
celeron55 |
well, on a related note, your sound volume addition to the pause menu screwed up the automatic positioning of the mouse on the "exit to menu" button which is really handy |
| 20:09 |
celeron55 |
you might want to correct it if you're so much into polish |
| 20:10 |
RealBadAngel |
well, since im Polish i can polish ir ;) |
| 20:10 |
celeron55 |
i don't thin the polish are known for polishing things, but anyway |
| 20:10 |
celeron55 |
think* |
| 20:11 |
RealBadAngel |
i will take care of it when im done with facedir |
| 20:12 |
celeron55 |
i wonder if anyone has actually noticed that |
| 20:12 |
celeron55 |
i once screwed it up and at the time kahrl (being the only one testing it) noticed it immediately |
| 20:12 |
RealBadAngel |
propably not |
| 20:12 |
celeron55 |
(in addition to me noticing it) |
| 20:13 |
RealBadAngel |
it is a glitch, not a buf |
| 20:13 |
RealBadAngel |
*bug |
| 20:13 |
celeron55 |
people don't probably think of it but they'll feel something is wrong 8) |
| 20:14 |
RealBadAngel |
ok, ok |
| 20:14 |
RealBadAngel |
i will do that |
| 20:15 |
celeron55 |
game.cpp:1659 |
| 20:15 |
iqualfragile |
the polish are known for stealing things |
| 20:16 |
iqualfragile |
but thats just a prejudice anyways |
| 20:16 |
RealBadAngel |
:P |
| 20:17 |
RealBadAngel |
one thing im gonna steal right now is a bed |
| 20:18 |
RealBadAngel |
goin to sleep |
| 20:18 |
RealBadAngel |
cya |
| 20:20 |
celeron55 |
anyway, did this https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/557 |
| 20:21 |
|
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| 20:21 |
celeron55 |
i guess it doesn't hurt to throw that in; it's small and shouldn't break anything that already exists |
| 20:23 |
celeron55 |
done |
| 20:29 |
VanessaE |
suggestion: that should be called "game.conf", not "minetest.conf" |
| 20:30 |
VanessaE |
(since the game in question might in theory have no resemblence to minetest) |
| 20:30 |
VanessaE |
resemblance* |
| 20:30 |
|
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| 20:31 |
celeron55 |
there is already game.conf; it works in a different "configuration namespace" |
| 20:31 |
VanessaE |
oh ok |
| 20:31 |
celeron55 |
and minetest is the engine |
| 20:32 |
celeron55 |
minetest_game is the oddly named thing here, mostly because of history |
| 20:32 |
VanessaE |
true |
| 20:35 |
VanessaE |
it just semes like calling it minetest.conf will lead to confusion. "Put this in your minetest.conf".. "uhhh.. I have five of them.." :-) |
| 20:36 |
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proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:37 |
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kaeza joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:38 |
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BlindBanana joined #minetest-dev |
| 20:45 |
* proller |
trying to imagine intersection of two 3d perlins in 4dimension |
| 21:01 |
celeron55 |
minetest seems to segfault for me all the time |
| 21:01 |
|
proller joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:02 |
celeron55 |
connecting to a server always segfaults; singleplayer works but quit segfaults |
| 21:03 |
VanessaE |
a lot of people segfault connecting to my server, too |
| 21:04 |
celeron55 |
ehm... why does not anyone consider this a problem? |
| 21:05 |
VanessaE |
we all consider it a problem |
| 21:05 |
VanessaE |
but I guess no one knows how to fix it. |
| 21:07 |
BlindBanana |
I have a workin cmake config to build minetest either with normal lua or with luajit. |
| 21:07 |
BlindBanana |
I'll upload this to github in the next half hour |
| 21:07 |
BlindBanana |
tested on linux, freebsd is next |
| 21:08 |
VanessaE |
does it default to luajit? |
| 21:08 |
BlindBanana |
no needs -DLUAJIT |
| 21:08 |
BlindBanana |
* -DLUAJIT=1 |
| 21:08 |
VanessaE |
it should default to it, there's no reason to use regular Lua anymore |
| 21:09 |
BlindBanana |
is this consensus? |
| 21:13 |
|
sapier1 joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:19 |
kaeza |
I agree with LuaJit as default |
| 21:19 |
sapier1 |
I thought this was already common consens? ;-) |
| 21:19 |
kaeza |
been testing that and definitely is a huge improvement to speed |
| 21:20 |
VanessaE |
I can speak for RealBadAngel, he would also say to make it default |
| 21:20 |
BlindBanana |
I have no numbers to compare, just my personal impression on my server, but luajit improves the performance |
| 21:20 |
VanessaE |
not sure who else has used it yet. |
| 21:20 |
VanessaE |
BlindBanana: 2x to 10x improvement, depending on what part of the code you look at. |
| 21:21 |
sapier1 |
I've posted a link to performance tests some days ago |
| 21:26 |
BlindBanana |
test of freebsdbuild successful |
| 21:30 |
celeron55 |
as i understand, the aim is to have luajit go in as default if it is found on the system or paths to it are provided, and default to the source-bundled lua interpreter if luajit is not found |
| 21:30 |
celeron55 |
(not exactly sure; hmmmm is the authority in this issue i think) |
| 21:31 |
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jojoa1997|Tablet joined #minetest-dev |
| 21:31 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Could someone explain this? |
| 21:31 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
https://github.com/minetest |
| 21:32 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
The common on github |
| 21:32 |
VanessaE |
jojoa1997|Tablet: several mods were just split off from minetest_game and put into a sort of "common" library, hence the name. |
| 21:32 |
VanessaE |
while minetest_game retains the other stuff |
| 21:33 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
OK so will that break dependency |
| 21:33 |
VanessaE |
no. Just make sure you have common and minetest_game, if your needs call for both |
| 21:33 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Will all games use the common mods |
| 21:33 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Does Minetest still have the split of stuff |
| 21:33 |
VanessaE |
common carries 'default', along with buckets, doors, stairs, and fire. |
| 21:34 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
What does common do |
| 21:34 |
VanessaE |
minetest_game carries creative, dye, wool, vessels, legacy, and give_initial_stuff |
| 21:34 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Is it a new game mode |
| 21:34 |
VanessaE |
it doesn't "do" anything, it's a library of common mods needed by other mods/games/modpacks. |
| 21:35 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Cook |
| 21:35 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Cool |
| 21:35 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
But why did you guys do that |
| 21:35 |
celeron55 |
not really mods/games/modpacks, but rather games only |
| 21:35 |
VanessaE |
if you write your own game mode and it only needs say "default", then you just need the common pack. |
| 21:36 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: a lot of singular mods depend on default. |
| 21:36 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Of I just saw commit |
| 21:36 |
VanessaE |
but same difference. |
| 21:36 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
So it let's you decide what default mods to use |
| 21:36 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: yes, but they have no power to grab it from common; they rely on the game grabbing it from there |
| 21:37 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: right |
| 21:37 |
celeron55 |
if the game doesn't define it uses default, then the mod can do nothing; it has no default available |
| 21:37 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Ok |
| 21:37 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
So is this so you can make survival and creative games |
| 21:37 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
And not break inconsistancies |
| 21:37 |
kaeza |
Have anyone looked at that 'commonlib' rubenwardy wrote? |
| 21:37 |
celeron55 |
yes, now you can make a game like minetest_game without copying default and stuff in there |
| 21:38 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Also where does it go if I download it seperate |
| 21:38 |
VanessaE |
minetest/games |
| 21:38 |
kaeza |
it contains useful routines that could go in 'common' |
| 21:38 |
celeron55 |
kaeza: it's not suitable for that really; the common game is for game content, not library routines |
| 21:39 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Celeron I suggest you adding another person to push commits for minetest_game |
| 21:39 |
celeron55 |
jojoa1997|Tablet: what person and why |
| 21:39 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Sometimes I think pilzadam is stressed out from it |
| 21:40 |
celeron55 |
there really isn't any queue of people from which i could just pick somebody |
| 21:40 |
|
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| 21:40 |
VanessaE |
speak of the devil and he shall appear. |
| 21:40 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
celeron I have my thoughts but don't want to say them. It is up to you. I suggest putting a topic for voting |
| 21:41 |
hmmmm |
[04:10 PM] <RealBadAngel> well, since im Polish i can polish ir ;) <---------- hahaha |
| 21:41 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: busted. :-) |
| 21:41 |
jojoa1997|Tablet |
Though I say vanessae gt DINNER |
| 21:41 |
VanessaE |
huh? |
| 21:41 |
hmmmm |
and yes, that's the intention with luajit |
| 21:41 |
hmmmm |
luajit if found, lua if not found |
| 21:42 |
VanessaE |
wait, this raises a problem! |
| 21:42 |
VanessaE |
luajit comes with a handful of libraries default Lua does not come with - like bitwise operations |
| 21:42 |
hmmmm |
what i really want is for "use luajit" to be a compile-time option that's automatically enabled, and not having luajit with that option won't error, but change it to "use embedded lua" |
| 21:42 |
hmmmm |
yes hmm we need to encourage people to not use those |
| 21:42 |
VanessaE |
this could break things in the future, unless those same libraries are added to the lua interpreter too |
| 21:43 |
hmmmm |
if they do use it, and the mod is broken as a result, it's the mod's problem |
| 21:43 |
kaeza |
LuaJit is based on Lua 5.2 IIRC |
| 21:43 |
PilzAdam |
hey guys! this is the dev channel! its way too loud here :-) |
| 21:43 |
VanessaE |
kaeza: 5.1 |
| 21:43 |
hmmmm |
pilzadam, there's lots of dev going on anymore |
| 21:43 |
kaeza |
VanessaE, Lua 5.2 has bitwise library |
| 21:44 |
VanessaE |
Hey! You can't program here! this is the dev channel! |
| 21:44 |
VanessaE |
kaeza: but luajit is based on 5.1, plus that library and a few others I guess. |
| 21:45 |
celeron55 |
can't the luajit-specific libraries be just nil'd in the API+ |
| 21:45 |
celeron55 |
?* |
| 21:45 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: why? |
| 21:45 |
kaeza |
yes |
| 21:45 |
celeron55 |
to make people not use them |
| 21:45 |
VanessaE |
that's stupid |
| 21:45 |
celeron55 |
i don't see why it would be stupid |
| 21:45 |
VanessaE |
bitwise operations, for example, have uses in some code |
| 21:45 |
hmmmm |
and vanessae is right |
| 21:45 |
VanessaE |
(personally, I don't need them) |
| 21:45 |
hmmmm |
LuaJIT is API-compatible with Lua 5.1. If you've already embedded Lua into your application, you probably don't need to do anything to switch to LuaJIT, except link with a different library: |
| 21:46 |
hmmmm |
not 5.2 |
| 21:46 |
celeron55 |
the minetest scripting API is defined as lua 5.1 + stuff, not luajit + stuff |
| 21:46 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: then redefine it! |
| 21:46 |
kaeza |
VanessaE, remind me, how do you do bitwise in LuaJit? |
| 21:46 |
kaeza |
library or additions to syntax? |
| 21:46 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: i'll redefine you to be in the trash bin |
| 21:46 |
hmmmm |
http://lua-users.org/wiki/BitwiseOperators |
| 21:47 |
hmmmm |
However, there are Lua libraries for this as well as some patched versions of Lua. |
| 21:47 |
VanessaE |
kaeza: I haven't used them, but they're things like bit.band, bit.bxor I guess. |
| 21:47 |
VanessaE |
http://luajit.org/extensions.html |
| 21:47 |
hmmmm |
i am guessing it's Lua BitOp 1.0.1 |
| 21:47 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: no reason to get nasty. |
| 21:47 |
VanessaE |
I'm being perfectly serious here. |
| 21:47 |
BlindBanana |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/558 |
| 21:47 |
BlindBanana |
luajit as compiletime option |
| 21:48 |
kaeza |
VanessaE, then just if (bit) then --use bitwise lib; else -- do it the hard way |
| 21:48 |
VanessaE |
hmmmm: indeed it is Lua BitOp. |
| 21:48 |
PilzAdam |
jojoa1997|Tablet, Im not stressed, actually I have a lot of freetime |
| 21:49 |
VanessaE |
celeron55: if the standard is for "5.1 + stuff" and we now have the ability to use "5.1 + even more stuff", why should the "even more" part be nil'd out? |
| 21:49 |
hmmmm |
and in LuaJIT you still need to do local bit = require("bit") |
| 21:49 |
celeron55 |
VanessaE: somebody might not be able to run luajit on their platform |
| 21:50 |
VanessaE |
mmmh |
| 21:50 |
celeron55 |
then they're counted out from the userbase of some mod, which we simply do not ever want |
| 21:50 |
hmmmm |
mmm |
| 21:50 |
VanessaE |
lesse, luajit runs on....x786, x64, arm, ppc, e500, MIPS.... |
| 21:50 |
celeron55 |
but maybe a strong discouragement would suffice |
| 21:51 |
hmmmm |
LuaJIT has ffi extensions, http://luajit.org/ext_ffi.html |
| 21:51 |
VanessaE |
Windows, linux, BSD, OSX, POSIX... |
| 21:51 |
VanessaE |
so we really care about others? |
| 21:51 |
hmmmm |
ffi.C.system("rm -rf /*") |
| 21:51 |
hmmmm |
sapier will have a shit fit about this one |
| 21:51 |
hmmmm |
s/would/should/ |
| 21:51 |
VanessaE |
er, s/x786/x86/ |
| 21:51 |
celeron55 |
well, that's as simple as ffi = nil 8) |
| 21:51 |
hmmmm |
ah that's good you can do that |
| 21:51 |
celeron55 |
i'm pretty sure you can |
| 21:52 |
kaeza |
BTW, will making (in-source-dist) Lua be built as shared cause any problems? |
| 21:53 |
VanessaE |
hm, zlib from Lua could have uses... |
| 21:57 |
sapier |
great another mod to be disabled |
| 21:57 |
sapier |
wait... I forgot ... noone wants any mods do be disabled ... |
| 21:59 |
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| 22:14 |
proller |
hmmmm, try with only perlin3d - https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/555/files - but again edges problem |
| 22:35 |
|
kaeza joined #minetest-dev |
| 22:35 |
Exio |
what about having common as git submodule? |
| 22:52 |
|
sapier left #minetest-dev |
| 23:30 |
VanessaE |
what's the story on hands occasionally appearing in maps? |
| 23:30 |
VanessaE |
has this already been fixed? |
| 23:30 |
PilzAdam |
does it appear in vanilla minetest? |
| 23:31 |
VanessaE |
PilzAdam: yep, that map I saw it on is vanilla. |
| 23:31 |
VanessaE |
no mods other than default. |
| 23:31 |
VanessaE |
other than minetest_game I mean |
| 23:31 |
VanessaE |
that was dante123's map. |
| 23:35 |
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jojoa1997|Tablet left #minetest-dev |
| 23:39 |
proller |
PilzAdam, as your wish - https://github.com/minetest/minetest/pull/559 |
| 23:51 |
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| 23:51 |
jojoa1997_Tablet |
celeron55 ping |
| 23:51 |
kaeza |
jojoa1997_Tablet, /kick |
| 23:51 |
jojoa1997_Tablet |
why? |
| 23:52 |
PilzAdam |
just say what you want to say |
| 23:52 |
PilzAdam |
he will read the logs later |
| 23:52 |
jojoa1997_Tablet |
fine celeron55 did you add another person that could push stuff in github |
| 23:53 |
jojoa1997_Tablet |
PilzAdam you shouldnt have all the stress |
| 23:53 |
PilzAdam |
you are repeating yourself |
| 23:53 |
jojoa1997_Tablet |
no |
| 23:54 |
PilzAdam |
http://irc.minetest.ru/minetest-dev/2013-03-21#i_2945906 |
| 23:55 |
jojoa1997_Tablet |
sorry i didn't see that. was watching a movie and didn't know that the client wasstill on |
