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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2013-02-13

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Time Nick Message
01:17 VanessaE jeez, I wander off to take a nap (sorry, unannounced) and of course she fires off four million commits in my absence :-)
01:17 VanessaE it seems to be fixed now.
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03:48 VanessaE Taoki:  Report from a user, the default gravity setting (that is, if you don't set anything in minetest.conf) results in jumps that are perhaps only 2/3 as high as usual.  Falling from the top of a default tree is enough to cause 1 heart damage.
03:48 VanessaE (I confirmed the latter)
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13:23 Taoki VanessaE: Back. It's ok, just noted you about the new commits :P
13:23 Taoki As for gravity, that's applied in one location of the code with a very simple formula. so if it's set to 0, there's simply none, but it can't affect anything else
13:23 Taoki BRB though
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13:47 Taoki Back. Not sure if I understood that issue properly... is gravity higher than it should be by default? Don't see why, but that should be looked into though it's a bit weird
13:51 Taoki I used a debug print and can confirm that when in the air (except free_move mode) Y acceleration is 0, and therefore Y acceleration code is not applied, which is needed for jumping and falling to work properly. Gravity code was barely thouched, so I see nothing logical that could cause gravity to act differently at default value. I also don't feel it being any different.
13:53 Taoki Also, I think it's normal for falling from the top of a tree to cost at least half a heart. Default trees are at least 5 blocks tall. In MineCraft, I believe you take half a heart if you fall from 4 blocks and a whole one if you fall from higher than 5... or something like that.
13:53 Taoki Well 6 blocks height at least
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14:29 VanessaE Taoki: falling form a tree takes a whole heart now.  Gravity is heavier by default than is normal - jumping normally takes you up higher than now (I think around 1.5m versus barely 1m now)
14:30 VanessaE so it behaves as if gravity is set to a higher value than the default.
14:30 Taoki That's all weird. Jumping feels the same to me as well as gravity
14:30 Taoki I don' see how, since the formula for it is very simple. And Y friction is disabled
14:31 VanessaE try comparing your branch against mainstream - the difference is subtle, but it's there.
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14:48 Taoki It might be an impression. If it's gravity I don't see what in the code could influence that
14:49 VanessaE you also weren't able to spot why fly with velocity = 0 didn't work ;-)
14:49 VanessaE but you fixed it anyway :D
14:49 Taoki Might have been due to some older code yeah :)
14:53 Taoki Also, I might have noticed what it was, so I think I did spot it. Might have been a different problem though
14:53 Taoki I noticed that if going in free move mode while touching the ground, it would use ground speed until up in the air enough, cuz it was attempting to jump to some extent
15:10 Taoki I wonder if there will be any way to fix placing glass and slabs underwater. Currently that looks weird... primarily slabs because they make a "hole" in the water
15:10 VanessaE create a fake water entity to fill in the space
15:11 VanessaE juts a guess
15:11 VanessaE just*
15:12 Taoki yeah. No need to create a fake entity, just render the opposite of a nodebox in the type of fluid that node is in
15:12 Taoki But that will be complicated
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15:38 Taoki PilzAdam: hi :)
15:39 Taoki PilzAdam: Need to go now for 1-2 hours. But just letting you know the latest version of my branch contains all your requests from last night (except the sliding after using fast). Also fixes the flying bug you and VanessaE noticed. Feel free to check it out again and perhaps it's good to go now
15:39 Taoki g2g, see you
15:39 PilzAdam will check it soon
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18:18 Taoki back
18:40 Taoki PilzAdam: Any news?
18:52 PilzAdam Taoki, yes
18:52 PilzAdam Falling in lava isnt effected by viscosity
18:53 PilzAdam moving in lava (highest viscosity (7)) is waaaaay to slow
18:53 PilzAdam it should be at least half of water velocity
18:53 PilzAdam maybe more
18:54 Taoki It's difficult to find a good formula for that, I tried. Best would be to either set default lava viscosity lower (4-5) or water viscosity higher (2-3)
18:54 sfan5 quick question: where is the code that loads lua mods
18:55 Taoki PilzAdam: Think it would work to either set default water viscosity to 3 or lava viscosity to 5?
18:55 PilzAdam no, because it would break flowing code
18:55 PilzAdam s/break/"break"
18:56 PilzAdam and possible also "break" mods
18:57 Taoki ok. I don't know how to fix it then, since I wish to keep only one value for water friction. If I set it too low so lava isn't that slow, you'll be able to walk in water as fast as on land
18:58 Taoki Don't know how to change the forumula to change the offset from 1 to larger values
18:58 Taoki I thought about using two settings, but I think that wastes an extra value when one could be optimized
18:59 PilzAdam maybe (0.5*viscosity)+0.5
19:00 PilzAdam (or simmiliar)
19:00 Taoki Still, speed in lava is sort of what you'd expect it to be in real life. Considering you'd be some god and wouldn't get hurt if falling in lava, traveling through it would be as slow as the speed in MineTest :P
19:00 Taoki Hmm...
19:00 Taoki I have to account the liquid_friction setting as well though
19:00 Taoki Currently I have: v3f d_wanted = -speed / (lplayer->movement_liquid_fluidity / lplayer->liquid_viscosity);
19:01 PilzAdam the problem is that the viscosity gets too fast too high
19:01 Taoki See environment.cpp line 2075. I suck at maths, and it would prolly be a bit hard to find a correct way :P
19:02 Taoki movement_liquid_fluidity is 0.15 by default. So in lava, that line I pasted would be -speed / (0.15 / 7);
19:02 Taoki Which is the value at which velocity is limited
19:03 Taoki Any ideas what I could use there?
19:03 PilzAdam with my suggest formula, it would be 0.15/(0.5*7+0.5) == 0.15/4
19:04 PilzAdam maybe use 0.25*viscosity+0.75
19:04 Taoki ok, I will try that out and see what I get :)
19:04 PilzAdam lava movement should be something arround half of water movement
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19:14 Taoki Trying something but it doesn't seem to work out: const u32 viscosity_factor = 0.25; ... ; d_wanted /= (viscosity_factor * lplayer->liquid_viscosity) + (1 - viscosity_factor);
19:15 PilzAdam because it makes every liquid movement faster
19:15 PilzAdam oh, wait
19:15 PilzAdam hm, seems like I cant read :-)
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19:16 Taoki The whole thing if that helps: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=VsT4NBc5
19:17 Taoki Removed those useless paranthesis in the second line BTW
19:18 PilzAdam Im not very good at c++, but maybe use float instead of u32
19:18 Taoki Actually, I should just try lplayer->liquid_viscosity * 0.5 directly... not the entire complex thing
19:18 Taoki Will try that too
19:21 PilzAdam well, u32 only store integers, and the float digits are simply dropped
19:21 PilzAdam wich makes it 0 in your case
19:21 troller make to flowing liquid push player to flow direction
19:22 Taoki ahh, ok
19:22 Taoki troller: Might attempt that in a separate branch. This one has enough changes already
19:22 Taoki But that I am interested in as well
19:22 Taoki Actually, I could try it now... but how can I read a liquid's flow direction?
19:23 ShadowNinja if you do make sure it can push other entities
19:24 PilzAdam Taoki, IIRC the liquid flowing direction isnt stored in any param
19:24 doserj flow direction can be caluclated by comparing the liquid level with that of neighbouring node
19:24 troller param1 of flowing liqid
19:24 PilzAdam its only calculated in conten_mapblock.cpp for drawing
19:24 doserj *nodes
19:24 Taoki ok. Will need to be done some other day then
19:24 Taoki Almost got the viscosity offset to work...
19:24 troller ups.
19:24 PilzAdam troller, param1 stores the light
19:27 PilzAdam Taoki, maybe save the direction with a mask in param2
19:27 Taoki That's something to think about another time
19:27 PilzAdam sure
19:31 Taoki Yay, got the viscosity code to work
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19:32 Taoki PilzAdam: Just one question to set it up well: Is cuirrent swimming speed in -water- good?
19:32 Taoki Cuz water is 1 and the factor offsets from there on, so I need to base it off that
19:32 sapier https://github.com/celeron55/minetest/pull/484 any suggestions what features are still missing?
19:35 PilzAdam Taoki, yes
19:35 Taoki ok, should be ready soon then
19:35 ShadowNinja on option to specify a folder maybe, for mods like worldedit that make many files.
19:39 sapier folder create delete support is dangerous there's a big chance you o mistakes ... what about adding this in second step?
19:39 sapier it's not a functional limitation
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19:44 ShadowNinja that would be fine, I was thinking of having a separate "category" argument that doesn't  allow paths so you can organize files without worrying about paths.
19:46 sapier yes but it's no big difference to support folders too and won't improve situation too much atm
19:47 Taoki PilzAdam: Done and pushed to my branch. Update and test now
19:47 Taoki Movement in lava should be about half as in water, maybe a bit faster so it's not annoying
19:47 sapier category is just "one level directory support" I assume as soon as this is added someone claims it'd be good to have subcategorys and subcategorys of subcategorys ;-)
19:48 Taoki Nah, about half
19:50 ShadowNinja yes, one level folders, I don't think subcategories will be necesary, although you could add support for that if you wanted
19:51 PilzAdam Taoki, does the viscosity effect the decelration when falling into liquids?
19:51 Taoki It affects friction, which is what is smoothened and causes the deceleration. So it should
19:52 PilzAdam and the constant down movement when you dont move?
19:52 Taoki Sure, just tested that
19:52 Taoki With current lava to water difference it's a bit less visible though
19:52 PilzAdam ok
19:52 Taoki If you set lava viscosity to 14 though you can see you sink much slower visibly
19:53 PilzAdam lua-api.txt says 7 should be max
19:56 Taoki Hold on, I'm trying to fix the smoothing when falling in liquid as well. Think that wasn't working by itself
19:56 Taoki Almost got it
19:57 sapier Some weeks ago I had a discussion with hmmmm (if i remember correct) about splitting scriptapi.cpp is this common consens to be done?
19:58 ShadowNinja scriptapi.cpp is getting awfully long
19:59 sapier yes I've already implemented file api in a separate file maybe we could extract e.g. inventory same way
20:00 ShadowNinja could we categorize scriptapi related files in a folder?
20:00 sapier I'd do it but as scriptapi is often modified this is a change that should be merged very soon in order to not be obsolete
20:01 sapier i'm completely with you but I thought subfolders are a no go in minetest ?
20:01 ShadowNinja I don't know, I haven't seen anything about that
20:02 sapier maybe this is outdated too
20:02 sapier I'd prefere subfolders to adding prefixes too
20:03 ShadowNinja yes, src/ is already very large
20:03 sapier I've already created virtual folders in my eclipse workspace to handle this
20:04 sapier but moving files isn't quite convenient in git as far as I know
20:04 PilzAdam scriptapi.cpp should only contain wrapper functions so the size doesnt really matter
20:04 ShadowNinja I think it detects renaming, and moving is just annother rename
20:05 sapier Pilzadam size does matter if you try to find a place where to add something
20:05 sapier and it was long ago where scriptapi was wrapper only
20:06 PilzAdam it should be wrapper only
20:06 PilzAdam so rather move stuff to environment or so
20:06 PilzAdam instead splitting the file up
20:06 sapier you can't move lua table creation and validation to environment
20:06 Taoki PilzAdam: Just fixed. Get the latest commit and try again :)
20:06 sapier ok you can but it doesn't make any sense
20:07 PilzAdam Taoki, btw: I have invented Lava Diving (TM) while testing :D
20:07 Taoki Hehe. Lava diving will work correctly now
20:08 Taoki Anyway, can you confirm lava diving and swimming in lava work ok at current values? I made the offset a little higher and lave movement should be exactly half of water's now
20:09 sapier currently there are three things done in scriptapi.cpp "wrapping" "data representation" and "parameter checks" all of them are extremely lua dependent
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20:09 sapier that file has 7k lines ... just to tell a number what we're talking about
20:10 PilzAdam Taoki, everything is perfect now
20:10 Taoki Yay :)
20:10 Taoki On my end it's all good too
20:12 Taoki PilzAdam: So if you can now, feel free to push it upstream. People will surely enjoy that :D
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20:12 Taoki diving is fuuun
20:13 PilzAdam Taoki, I will merge it tomorrow, its sleeping time again
20:13 PilzAdam bye
20:14 Taoki ok :) Bye
20:28 darkrose Taoki: squashed and merged
20:28 Taoki darkrose: Thanks!
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20:53 Taoki http://forum.minetest.net/viewtopic.php?pid=11185#p11185 Looking at this post today, I can tell a LOT was done in almost exactly an year. By the time I posted that (17-02-2012) none of the things I mentioned there existed. Today (13-02-2013) more than half does!
20:57 VanessaE very impressive, Taoki
20:57 Taoki Thanks :)
21:00 Taoki VanessaE: Feel free to switch your server to latest master now. Everyone who runs GIT can test it now
21:00 VanessaE alreayd did.
21:01 Taoki ok
21:01 Taoki But yeah, I'm happy I got this and 3D players done the most. MineTest feels a lot more modern now, and it will only attract more people and things will get better
21:01 Taoki Kinda rare to see an open-source project prospering this much this quickly. Most are kinda struggling to have devs doing much
21:03 ShadowNinja now we just need to catch up on our backlog of pull requests
21:04 Taoki I'm glad there are more devs handling pull requests now.
21:04 ShadowNinja down to 46 from 50 at least
21:04 ShadowNinja yes, me too
21:04 Taoki BTW. With current upstream and no mods, is it possible to set a home location?
21:05 ShadowNinja not without teleport
21:07 Taoki teleport = a mod?
21:07 VanessaE next suggestion:  texturable sun/moon and programmable sky color
21:07 Taoki Yes, I'd like that too. But that goes in difficult domains
21:08 Taoki They're already texturable though, just impossible to change the file name
21:08 ShadowNinja no, it is in builtin/chatcommands.lua
21:08 Taoki ok
21:08 RealBadAngel then you have to try, try, try :)
21:08 RealBadAngel hi all
21:08 Taoki hi
21:08 VanessaE whoever does it I only ask one thing:  proper alpha support for the sun/moon images
21:08 VanessaE so they can have a proper corona around them
21:09 RealBadAngel just tried proller's finite liquids again and it seems to stop working
21:09 RealBadAngel have any1 else tried it?
21:10 ShadowNinja The #1 pull request I want atm is a fix for memory leaks, and performance improvements
21:11 ShadowNinja I would also like the compiler warnings pull request to be accepted
21:12 Taoki RealBadAngel: Looking at some pipes on VanessaE's server. I'm pretty skeptical about making round pipes out of nodeboxes, by using so many of them. For one thing it looks visible square-ish... then I wonder how much performance it eats
21:13 Taoki The way I wish those could be done (not sure if they will) is by allowing smoothing of voxels. Marching cubes or something. But eh... different and difficult topic :P
21:14 VanessaE Taoki: they don't seem to affect performance appreciably, but I do sometimes wish there were a way to smooth them after the register_node() call
21:14 VanessaE I know c55 doesn't care for them - they're not blocky enough :-)
21:14 Taoki yeah. It's something I have in mind, but very difficult
21:14 RealBadAngel thats good :) more difficult the better :)
21:14 Taoki That's one part where we can separate from MineCraft. I'm not looking for everything to be blocky... just have the same system and functionality
21:15 Taoki Reason MC is blocky is that using marching cubes would have been difficult even for Notch... especially in java
21:15 Taoki With Irrlicht it could be different still
21:15 VanessaE marching cubes?
21:17 Taoki VanessaE: A system which creates a smooth surface between voxels, instead of blocks
21:17 VanessaE OH
21:17 VanessaE yes indeed that's what I would like to see
21:17 Taoki So each voxel defines a floating point to generate the mesh over, instead of being a block
21:17 Taoki yeah :)
21:17 VanessaE of course a lot of us have asked for per-nodebox textures, but that would be...non-trivial
21:19 Taoki That will happen too at some point
21:20 VanessaE nice
21:21 VanessaE Taoki: ok, try it now.
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21:38 Taoki Any reason why RBA's big trees mod isn't default yet? Such awesomeness can't be wasted >:o
21:39 VanessaE because it's in moretrees? :-)
21:39 VanessaE and I don't think c55 likes 'em :-)
21:39 RealBadAngel he likes they, he admited that
21:39 RealBadAngel *them
21:40 RealBadAngel i think trees are waitin for new biomes :)
21:40 troller RealBadAngel, try now liquid with liquid_relax = 0
21:41 troller liquid_finite = true
21:41 troller liquid_update = 0.2
21:41 troller liquid_relax = 0
21:42 RealBadAngel ok
21:42 RealBadAngel shall i generate new world?
21:42 Taoki celeron55: Any reason why the huge trees aren't added yet? They make maps so much more awesome and beautiful, and I think it will be a blowing improvement :)
21:42 troller no, just find any flowing water and touch it
21:42 troller like undersea cave with bubbles
21:44 troller but with relax=2 more realistic smooth surface
21:47 troller and good idea to set #define LIQUID_LEVEL_MASK 0x3f // better finite water
21:48 troller but it broke compatibility
21:48 RealBadAngel Taoki, treegen is core for some time. New mapgen and biomes have to use it
21:48 Taoki ok
21:49 RealBadAngel afaik hmmm is now busy with new emerge thread stuff
21:51 VanessaE and for now,
21:51 VanessaE plants_lib + moretrees = biomes.
21:51 VanessaE and I think it does a damn good job of it :-)
21:52 Taoki Biomes are still hard coded sadly
21:52 VanessaE Taoki: no.  look at plants_lib
21:52 Taoki VanessaE: Can you define biomes like desert_forest, snowy, etc. entirely in LUA?
21:52 VanessaE Taoki: with my mod, yes.
21:52 Taoki IIRC it still uses C++ hooks for these (aliases)
21:52 Taoki oh...
21:52 Taoki Does it work with upstream?
21:53 VanessaE my server has it.  so yes.  It just has to do more work in Lua because it is, after all, still a mod
21:53 VanessaE moretrees depends on it, for example.
21:54 VanessaE flowers and such too, but with more relaxed limitations
21:54 Taoki yes, But can you create entire biomes without the C++ hooks / aliases for desert and forest?
21:54 VanessaE more or less yeah
21:55 VanessaE I've never tried doing thigns such as replacing whole sections of the map, my code is mainly for adding stuff on top of whatever's already there
21:55 VanessaE https://raw.github.com/VanessaE/plantlife/master/API.txt
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22:03 Taoki interesting
22:03 VanessaE why that library is so underused, I don't know
22:06 sapier it's not included within minetest_game ;-)
22:07 VanessaE and never will be
22:07 troller VanessaE, temperature perlin map already available ?
22:07 VanessaE my mods are too complex and too varied for celeron55's liking.
22:07 VanessaE troller: yes
22:07 troller how about humidity for rain and snow ?
22:07 sapier I know it's same for mobf too :-)
22:07 VanessaE troller: a humidity map is implemented, yes.
22:08 VanessaE but I don't currently use it for anything in my mods.
22:08 troller good
22:08 VanessaE temperature, humidity, ground fertility, nearness to water (or other nodes), elevation, light level, ...
22:09 troller and monster strength level..
22:10 VanessaE eh, well.
22:10 VanessaE that's up to someone else to implement.
22:10 VanessaE :-)
22:10 sapier vanessae is plantlib working standalone?
22:10 RealBadAngel troller, why the heck water in 2x2 hole (one source placed) is flowing in 4 directions??
22:11 RealBadAngel with four different levels?
22:11 VanessaE sapier: yes
22:11 VanessaE it does not depend on anything else.
22:11 VanessaE except default of course
22:11 RealBadAngel i suggest stop listening to all PA's ideas
22:11 sapier default as in default minimal or default minetest_game?
22:12 RealBadAngel hes making finite water idea fucked up
22:12 VanessaE sapier: default as in minetest_game, but actually I've never tried it under minimal.  It might work even then (if you tweak depends.txt)
22:12 VanessaE care to give it a try?
22:13 sapier I'll do as soon as I start experiments
22:13 troller RealBadAngel, have screenshot ?
22:13 RealBadAngel wait a sec
22:14 VanessaE sapier: ok
22:15 VanessaE sapier: I welcome pull requests if you spot a bug or know a way to speed the code up even more, etc.
22:15 VanessaE or if you see how it can be made to run in minimal if it doesn't already
22:15 troller RealBadAngel, maybe overoptimized for oceans
22:15 sapier as pathbased movement gen is completed this may be next step ... as soon as I've added all requested features to secure file api
22:15 troller or buggy visual of flowing liquids
22:17 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/LHlSir2.png
22:17 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/uGQOVUw.jpg
22:18 VanessaE RealBadAngel: eek, way to break it
22:18 RealBadAngel 2nd sshot, those triangles of water are here for about 10 minutes by now
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22:19 RealBadAngel finite water doesnt behave like finite at all anymore, it seems like PA's suggestions made from it fucked up infinite one
22:21 RealBadAngel troller, i suggest you fire up mc, install finite liquids mod, and look how it should behave
22:21 RealBadAngel and dont listen to PA
22:22 VanessaE maybe PA is a spy from mjoang ;-)
22:22 RealBadAngel lol, that could explain everythin
22:22 VanessaE er mojang*
22:23 RealBadAngel a saboteur
22:24 RealBadAngel with mission pretend to be doing lotsa stuff and break everythin around lol
22:24 VanessaE maybe not :-)
22:24 RealBadAngel or PA's idendity was stolen by mojangs hacker, who knows...
22:34 RealBadAngel he used to make excellent mods before
22:35 RealBadAngel now he changed completely
22:35 RealBadAngel i remember his fork of minetest_game with lotsa cool solutions and ideas
22:36 RealBadAngel now hes merging only trivial changes, which in fact mostly break stuff
22:37 RealBadAngel none of his own, good ideas were merged
22:38 RealBadAngel for example his patch to use stone groups in crafting recipes made cookin cobble to smooth stone obsolete
22:38 RealBadAngel why you would waste time, coal or whatever if in all recipes you can use just cobble
22:39 ShadowNinja do you think a cobble group should be added?
22:39 RealBadAngel not to mention all stones are equal now, and adding other ones to this group by modders would be just stupid (for example furnace made out of obsidian or granite)
22:40 troller RealBadAngel, triangles from unchanged old visual code, really they are 1 level
22:40 RealBadAngel undo his idiotic changes i mean
22:40 RealBadAngel groups are good for all kinds of wood for example
22:40 RealBadAngel not the stone
22:40 ShadowNinja disable shaders if you want to get rid of the triangles
22:41 ShadowNinja I see what you mean
22:41 RealBadAngel i got shaders disabled...
22:41 ShadowNinja hmmm
22:42 troller RealBadAngel, now all changes configurable
22:42 RealBadAngel troller, 1 level or not, triangle or flat, whatever, why it doesnt flow down?
22:43 troller left - ok, no way to flow
22:44 RealBadAngel current screenshot:
22:44 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/6oqufV7.jpg
22:44 troller center - like bug
22:45 troller tomorow will debug
22:45 RealBadAngel ok
22:46 RealBadAngel and dont listen to saboteurs, just make it work :)
22:46 RealBadAngel its too cool idea to be broken
22:46 RealBadAngel with it pumps will have use. like real one
22:47 troller its hard to find balance between performance, good loking and realistic
22:47 RealBadAngel btw
22:48 RealBadAngel you should try to close holes in oceans
22:49 RealBadAngel on mapgen when theres air under water node insert there stone or whatever
22:49 RealBadAngel to avoid forced huge updates to oceans on start
22:49 troller many of them transforms to flow
22:49 troller in pull request was like this fix
22:50 troller not from me
22:50 RealBadAngel so take a look on it and adapt the code
22:50 troller but huge updates are funny
22:51 RealBadAngel not at the very start ;)
22:51 troller ok.
22:51 troller i go to sleep. bye
22:51 RealBadAngel cya
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