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IRC log for #minetest, 2017-05-25

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Time Nick Message
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00:44 XtremeHacker Hey rubenwardy, I get this error "mods/infoblock/init.lua:5: '(' expected near 'minetest'" when trying to use the node meta formspecs example here: https://rubenwardy.com/minetest_mo​dding_book/chapters/formspecs.html
00:44 XtremeHacker Wait, maybe It's because my mod is in a non MTG (my own custom) subgame?...
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00:45 rubenwardy what is line 5?
00:46 XtremeHacker minetest.register_node("mymod:rightclick", {
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00:50 rubenwardy what's before that?
00:50 XtremeHacker Just a couple of variables I declared
00:51 XtremeHacker Oh, I had a function registration, without end.
00:51 XtremeHacker :facepalm:
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07:39 wilkgr Nope, forums still don't like me :/
07:41 Raven262 Who cares about the forums anyway? xD
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08:29 IhrFussel player:set_sky() stacks? For example if one mod sets the sky and then another does too, the sky will NOT be the default one again if one of them sets the sky as "regular" again...at least that's what I'm experiencing
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08:32 paramat IhrFussel what commit is your engine on? and are you using 'get sky'?
08:34 IhrFussel Here's what happened: My server starts events depending on the ingame time and chance ... at 21:00 the sky turned red at 22:30 the sky was supposed to turn gray (raining) but instead it went back to regular...when the "red sky event" tried to revert it back to regular it turned gray instead and after rain was over it turned back to normal sky
08:34 IhrFussel My server was compiled Apr 24 and no I just use player_set_sky() inside minetest.get_connected_players() loops
08:35 paramat ok
08:36 IhrFussel paramat, does it sound too complicated?
08:38 paramat no, i agree it should not act that way
08:40 paramat best link your relevant code in a new issue
08:43 paramat the bug i introduced in get sky was added 3rd of May so it's not that
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08:54 paramat maybe i'll try running 2 mods to see
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10:09 noxvis0 Hey
10:10 wilkgr Hi
10:10 wilkgr ..and gn o/
10:11 noxvis0 How to get one of this freaking red flowers, I want to build a bed
10:11 noxvis0 I generated 4 worlds trying to find this annoying nodes
10:13 noxvis0 Why cant I use any type of flower, I have yellow ones, and blue ones, purple and orange.... but no red hell
10:13 noxvis0 Why cant I use red mushrooms to create that St* dye
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10:27 noxvis0 Can someone tell me why you screw the gameplay up that hard?
10:34 * noxvis0 sent a long message: noxvis0_2017-05-25_10:34:36.txt <https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/down​load/matrix.org/TGBLXDoEMppsAcbgBnxXVqKE>
10:46 MinetestBot [git] paramat -> minetest/minetest: Mgv6 mudflow: Remove decoration if 'dirt with grass' below flows away… 5b33863 https://git.io/vH3t9 (2017-05-25T10:46:34Z)
10:46 MinetestBot [git] red-001 -> minetest/minetest: Close formspec on client shutdown. (#5811) 2f291e6 https://git.io/vH3t7 (2017-05-25T10:46:24Z)
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10:52 paramat noxvis0 i agree a certain dye should not be needed for a bed, since red flowers can be distant
10:52 paramat i think this has been discussed, maybe a new issue shoud be opened
10:57 noxvis0 I will do it later,im on mobile right now
10:58 noxvis0 paramat: dude, I have more diamond than red flowers right now. (Two)
10:59 Raven262 Well that is something to be proud of.
10:59 paramat ok
11:00 Raven262 You know that you can plant them on the dirt with grass and then they can replicate?
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11:03 paramat there is an existing issue that could be re-opened https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/475 best to do that because a new one would be a duplicate
11:04 paramat i'll reopen it then you can add your comments later
11:04 IhrFussel What's the most efficient way to choose a random pos NEARBY the player?
11:07 paramat math.random() within a defined radius? you mean a surface pos?
11:08 IhrFussel paramat, it is supposed to determine where the monster spawns so it should be right next to the player but 2-3 nodes away
11:10 paramat minetest.find_nodes_under_air()?
11:11 paramat lua_api.txt under 'environment access'
11:12 IhrFussel The nodes wouldn't matter it could also be mid-air... right now I simply hard coded the spawn pos local ppos = player:getpos() local fmpos = {} fmpos.x = math.floor(ppos.x+2) fmpos.y = math.floor(ppos.y+0.5) fmpos.z = math.floor(ppos+2)
11:14 IhrFussel paramat, is it ok to just define random numbers and use those as "distance"? Or would that be slow?
11:16 paramat minetest.find_nodes_in_area_under_air(minp, maxp, nodenames) uses engine code so might be the most efficient
11:17 IhrFussel But how would I get the radius? I only have one pos (where the player is)
11:17 paramat just pick a random entry from the table
11:18 paramat minp = ppos - {3, 3, 3} ...
11:19 paramat ppos is player pos
11:19 Krock look through the returned positions and use something like:   if vector.length(pos) > 2 and vector.length(pos) < current_shortest then current_shortest = vector.length(pos) ..cache position..  end
11:19 paramat oh i see
11:19 Krock that's how you can find the most close to the player
11:20 Krock downside of this is that C++ does hell many checks to generate this table and you'll go through the whole thing again to get the best position. Ensure that this stuff isn't called like all milisecond
11:21 paramat yeah search through the table and calculate the distance for each, if 2-3 nodes away add to another table, then randomly pick one?
11:22 IhrFussel That sounds very complicated...my task is pretty simple...I'll post a pastebin one sec
11:23 Krock or  local result_index_taken = math.ceil(math.random() * #nodes_in_area_positions)  and then get that calculated index
11:23 paramat or i guess, pick a random pos, chaeck for a suitable distance, then if air use that
11:23 paramat *check
11:23 paramat and loop that
11:24 Krock the problem is that you want the node in a distance no less than 2. If you remove that from your desired final result, simply get a random index from the returned table
11:25 Krock as a side effect that monstery may directly spawn inside the player
11:25 Krock *monsters
11:26 IhrFussel https://pastebin.com/Lh3VxfLJ
11:26 Krock where did all the indents go?
11:28 paramat you might spawn a mob inside a solid node
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11:29 Krock 1 moment.. coding...
11:29 IhrFussel So I should probably check what node the pos has and if it's not air I try to + 1 or - 1 and check the node again?
11:33 paramat you should check for air above air or however big a space is needed for the mob
11:35 Krock https://pastebin.com/5hAvXVdU
11:35 Krock untested. I have no clue what this function returns
11:36 Krock ^ 'this function' = minetest.find_nodes_in_area_under_air
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11:39 IhrFussel Krock, wouldn't that code be pretty heavy? I mean it runs for every players online per second
11:39 Krock yes it is. but I don't see any other way. You could also get all "air" nodes in this area but at the end it will need about the same amount of calculations
11:40 Krock ABMs basically do the same, just on each node instead of each player
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11:46 paramat that code would not keep mob spawns at 2-3 nodes away though. you could loop through randomly selected positions and calculate the distance until you get a suitable one
11:46 Krock yes sure. but the speed..
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12:00 paramat yeah, but it was asked that the mob is spawned 2-3 nodes away
12:01 paramat inside the player would not be good :]
12:03 twoelk been there, had a fright, ran away
12:15 IhrFussel Is it "a monster spawned nearby you!" or "a monster spawned near you!" ? Not sure
12:15 paramat near
12:16 paramat trust me i'm english :]
12:16 IhrFussel Haha ok thanks :D
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12:16 rubenwardy it's either "spawned nearby" or "spawned near you"
12:16 rubenwardy :)
12:17 paramat yeah, 'a monster spawned nearby' is ok
12:20 IhrFussel Well..which one sounds better?
12:20 IhrFussel Adding "you" is maybe better since the monster will spawn near the player then
12:31 paramat 'nearby' implies that it is near the player, and is shorter, i think that sounds better too
12:32 Krock "spawned monster nearby a you"
12:33 IhrFussel Haha xP ok I chose "A monster spawned nearby!" thanks all, gtg now see you later
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14:44 MinetestBot [git] nerzhul -> minetest/minetest: Enhance ABM performance a little bit by removing two std::set copy (#… 4d5ce84 https://git.io/vH3oU (2017-05-25T14:43:55Z)
14:47 EDAKIRI VanessaE:
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15:25 DS-minetest how has the menu music file in <user path>/sounds/ to be called?
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15:32 twoelk main_menu.ogg
15:32 DS-minetest thanks :D
15:33 BBmine Oh, when's Minetest 0.4.16 supposed to come out?
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15:36 red-001 april 4
15:36 red-001 june 4
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15:37 DS-minetest !tell BBmine date for minetest 0.4.16 : june 4
15:37 MinetestBot DS-minetest: yeah, sure, whatever
15:39 DS-minetest hm, can i also add files for ingame music?
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16:28 zyabin101 Okay, I added the grass block to composite, and now I have no sign of it in none of v5, v7 and valleys mapgens. :sob:
16:30 zyabin101 I put node definitions in one file per node, along with that node's "purposes in life": aliases for MTG compat, mapgen, et cetera
16:31 zyabin101 Maybe is it because of that? or does mapgen [snowed] dirt [with grass] depend on something?
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17:10 paramat zyabin101 did you add your new grass node to the biome registrations?
17:11 zyabin101 I don't have any biomes defined. o_o
17:15 paramat ok see MTGame mods/default/mapgen.lua for examples
17:15 paramat so you're making a subgame i guess
17:15 zyabin101 bang
17:16 zyabin101 correct
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17:17 paramat you could copy paste all the biomes, then replace each node with your subgames nodes
17:20 zyabin101 That needs re-licensing my code to LGPL (since copying code from MTG requires following the LGPL license)
17:20 zyabin101 I have MIT :/
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17:26 paramat ok you can register your own biomes by learning from MTG code, more fun to create your own
17:27 zyabin101 :D
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17:55 Grandolf hi
17:56 Grandolf why not add a server that its purpose would be to allow players to vote on updates that would be disputed
17:56 red-001 Grandolf, the glicht that allowed you to climb using sneak got removed while re-working the sneak code to get rid of the damage evasion glicth
17:56 red-001 then got re-added in two diffrent ways
17:56 Grandolf ic
17:57 red-001 1. A new version that doesn't allow you to avoid damage
17:57 red-001 2. the old code with all the issues it had
17:57 red-001 Grandolf, we do that on the forum
17:58 zyabin101 @Grandolf idea: make a serv that decides on *any* change democratically
17:58 zyabin101 even man-made chunk updates
17:58 Grandolf i suppose it would b a pain
17:59 red-001 see https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=5&amp;t=17091
17:59 zyabin101 "Thanks for helping us support Chaostest! Your edits are only visible to you until they are voted on."
17:59 red-001 zyabin101, lol
18:00 red-001 there is a 100% chance someone will use bots to hijack voting on that sort of server
18:01 zyabin101 @red-001 then do a vote against bots...?
18:01 * zyabin101 is muttering...
18:02 zyabin101 [then bots will hijack the vote so it is in favour of bots...]
18:02 zyabin101 Mission. Blockin'. Accomplished.
18:02 zyabin101 (no offense)
18:04 Grandolf i meant an ingame server, not an irc
18:05 paramat Grandolf details are here https://forum.minetest.net/vi​ewtopic.php?f=18&amp;t=17397
18:05 Grandolf yes, looking at it
18:07 paramat heh we don't do democracy here, it would be a disaster
18:08 Grandolf maybe
18:08 slemonide Yeah, we practice anarcho-communism here.
18:08 twoelk devocrazy?
18:09 Grandolf solution seems reasonable enough too
18:11 * twoelk remembers he has to change quite a few drop shafts on several servers/maps to be usefull again :-(
18:13 paramat we have a sort of benign dictatorship :]
18:14 red-001 lol
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19:23 IhrFussel ARE YOU ACTUALLY SERIOUS guys?? You plan to DROP Android support? You plan to FORCE ~ 75% of the userbase to switch to 3rd party apps that contain ADS and are mainly OUTDATED?
19:25 IhrFussel Some of them don't even support all features the official build supports...are you crazy??
19:26 Krock IhrFussel, already replied on this particular issue? I think the player's opinion could be helpful there
19:27 IhrFussel Krock, I planned to...honestly I'm still recovering from the shock moment I just had when I browsed the github issues page
19:28 paramat there's no plan yet, just a suggestion for consideration
19:28 Calinou dude, the Android support sucked back in the day and still sucks today
19:28 Calinou the UI is **unusable**
19:28 Calinou and I mean iut
19:28 Calinou it*
19:28 Calinou the controls stink.
19:28 paramat most android users don't use the official app
19:28 IhrFussel To even CONSIDER it is stupid IMO
19:28 Calinou the server list is impossible to use.
19:28 Calinou I am talking about the official app here
19:28 swift110 hey all
19:29 Calinou Minetest never had mobile in mind
19:29 Calinou so let's just drop it…
19:29 swift110 lol I tried the android port and it was interestin g
19:29 paramat consideration is never stupid
19:30 paramat it depends on if we can find someone willing to maintain it, we've been waiting a year
19:30 IhrFussel The UI is not unusable...I can play just fine on my phone, all NECESSARY features are there...NOTHING locked behind a f*cking PAYWALL...NOTHING distracted by bs ads
19:32 nore Well I think any developer to help us on the Android port would be very welcome :)
19:32 IhrFussel The Android app evolved GREATLY in the recent years...I installed it back when Minetest was at version 0.4.12 ... and the UI and features improved  A LOT since then...many Android bugs were solved
19:32 paramat my suggestion was to choose the best app and call it 'officially recommended', or maybe encourage an app author to create a new app that becomes 'officially recommended', maybe they could essentially fork from current MT
19:33 IhrFussel Okay let's find a 3rd party client app that contains all features, has no ads, no IAP and promises to NEVER change that
19:35 paramat hmm probably doesn't exist at the moment :]
19:36 IhrFussel No because almost all Android devs that clone the game are GREEDY as heck
19:37 sfan5 dropping android support is a bad idea
19:37 sfan5 even if android support sucks it should be kept
19:38 IhrFussel sfan5, why do you keep saying "it sucks" just because there are quite a few bugs that haven't been solved yet or the UI is not super clean? Is the PC UI PERFECT?
19:39 sfan5 the ui is particlarily bad
19:40 IhrFussel It is usable though...it's not *broken* it WORKS...it may be a bit ugly but it WORKS...without having to pay money, without being forced to watch ads, without fearing IAP you can just enjoy single and multiplayer
19:43 Calinou <IhrFussel> The UI is not unusable...I can play just fine on my phone, all NECESSARY features are there...NOTHING locked behind a f*cking PAYWALL...NOTHING distracted by bs ads
19:43 Calinou let me try on my phone, I'll take a screenshot or two
19:43 Calinou installing the Minetest app from F-Droid right now
19:43 Calinou I will intentionally use the defaults and not tweak anything
19:44 Calinou (it's not like I ever figured out how to edit the minetest.conf on Android anyway)
19:44 Calinou also if you know how to split stacks in the inventory, you could get a Nobel prize
19:45 paramat anyway, don't worry, it seems likely it will not be dropped, most of the advantages i listed will not happen
19:48 Calinou okay, my phone is making it near impossible to take screenshots…
19:49 Calinou Volume down + Power isn't a thing on it, you can only use their "swipe the screen" thing on it which does not work in fullscreen applications
19:49 IhrFussel Calinou, unusable == broken for me...and it is not broken...moving works, jumping works, sneaking works, fly/fast/noclip/debug menu, chat, inventory, drop item button...it exists ... MANY other clients think they could just REMOVE an essential button like "drop item" cause they are damn GENIUSES
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19:50 Calinou can you play it efficiently? no
19:50 Calinou does it look good? no
19:50 nerzhul Calinou, i'm not on this channel but the link mean i should come
19:50 Calinou does it run smoothly? lol no, not even the main menu is smooth for me on a S7 edge
19:50 nerzhul 0.4.16 will be on play store
19:50 nerzhul but if we need to rewrite app, i think we drop the main menu and use android native forms to do the main menu is better, especially on serverlist and crendential storage
19:51 Calinou fun fact: text does not fit in most main menu buttons/windows
19:51 Calinou nerzhul: good idea, but if you look around, most mobile games do not use Android native forms for the main menu itself
19:51 Calinou sometimes for settings, but that's about it
19:51 Calinou nerzhul: PLEASE NBO
19:51 Calinou NO*
19:51 Calinou no non-free things in Minetest, ever
19:51 Calinou and forks will remove it anyway if you do that
19:52 IhrFussel That's an issue I filed LONG ago...I suggested to reduce the gui_scaling default value for Android builds which shouldn't be TOO hard
19:52 Calinou proprietary software is never a solution to anything
19:52 nerzhul as you said before, minetest is a lib on android
19:52 nerzhul we are free to add GPLv3 + non commercial clauses on java part :p
19:53 nerzhul it's free, but if you want adds, bye bye, recode it or use a shitty version :p
19:53 Calinou this would likely be illegal
19:53 Calinou even if it's not, it's morally wrong
19:53 Calinou anyway, I did some singleplayer gameplay on 0.4.15 Android
19:54 nerzhul minetest is a lib on Android, it's legal to have the licnse you want on the main binary
19:54 Calinou it runs smoothly (enabled smooth lighting and 3D clouds as well) but view distance is very short
19:54 paramat nothing necessarily wrong with proprietary software and currently the android apps are already hideous and corrupt
19:54 nerzhul it run smoothly i agree, but menu is WTF MAN you open a strange menu to open android keyboard
19:54 Calinou nerzhul: the GPL does not permit incorporating any GPL-incompatible code, by design
19:54 Calinou paramat: "just because something is commonplace doesn't mean it's right"
19:55 paramat just because something is proprietary doesn't make it wrong
19:55 nerzhul LGPL is compatible with GPL
19:55 nerzhul you can have LGPL lib in GPL code
19:56 nerzhul example: openoffice code in libreoffice
19:56 swift110 minetest on android cannot get better without people usn gt
19:56 swift110 using it
19:58 Calinou anyway, I got some screenshots
19:59 Calinou nerzhul: LibreOffice is MPL now by the way
19:59 Calinou https://lut.im/LLHJxeKswF/ruICcZiWcOyMEXZc.png
19:59 Calinou https://lut.im/HMTeTpJpzT/q7JxPZJ13LEgYn3i.png
19:59 Calinou note: it will look huge on your screen, zoom out
19:59 Calinou note that the game does not support undersampling (don't even think about automatic undersampling), so it will always render at the phone's initial resolution
20:00 Calinou (it's in Git, but it sucks because it's not filtered)
20:03 Fixer Calinou: use downsample to something like 800x600 and increase view distance
20:04 Calinou Fixer: not possible in the current state of the app
20:04 Calinou see what I said about undersampling
20:04 Calinou changing the view distance is possible, though
20:04 nerzhul sorry but for the main menu, how can you play with that...
20:04 nerzhul it's a desktop menu, not hte best but with hand it's a pain
20:05 nerzhul and this button, at the bottom right
20:05 Calinou I get what you mean.
20:05 Calinou system GUIs would be better, sure
20:05 Calinou but if you make it proprietary, no way.
20:05 IhrFussel So since the discussion has been linked in the github issue now should I still write my comment on it?
20:05 Calinou F-Droid would kick your ass, too
20:05 Calinou for good reason
20:05 nerzhul i don't said proprietary, i said GPL and non commercial clauses it's not proprietary :p it's libre and fuck the guys who want to get money on our work
20:06 nerzhul CC NC is libre. you take, no money
20:06 red-001 LGPL wouldn't have an issue with the java part being under a diffrent licence
20:06 red-001 LGPL part*
20:07 Calinou CC -NC is not libre, and never was
20:07 Calinou please review the definition of free culture
20:08 Calinou (also, CC licenses are not software licenses)
20:08 Calinou red-001: we don't have a Classpath exception so it would.
20:08 Calinou LGPL allows dynamic linking with non-GPL-compatible software; not static linking, unless it has an exception (eg. wxWidgets)
20:10 red-001 thats not correct
20:10 red-001 https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gp​l-faq.html#LGPLStaticVsDynamic
20:10 red-001 you just need to be able to build a code again and relink it
20:10 nerzhul Minetest is dynamicly linked on android, failed :p
20:10 red-001 the code*
20:10 Calinou it allows static linking if you have a way for the user to modify the LGPL library
20:10 Calinou which is, in practice, *never* the case
20:10 Calinou nobody does it, so stop trying
20:11 Calinou seriously, I have never seen this once in my life
20:11 red-001 there is always a first time
20:11 Calinou we're not going to do it here
20:11 nerzhul i don't know any free software who was stolen by fucking forkers
20:11 Calinou free software can't be stolen
20:12 nerzhul especially in games, because MT is the most valuable free software in terms of users on android
20:12 Calinou copyright theft is a thing, but it's not what you have in mind right now.
20:12 Calinou forking is also not always a problem
20:12 Calinou expecting everyone to go with upstream is a myth
20:12 Calinou it's blindly naive
20:12 nerzhul if they give us money, no problem, but they don't care, they just want free money lol;, in life you don't have free money, you have money for work you do.
20:13 nerzhul if someone does money on your work and you don't have any of it it's not work it's steal.
20:13 Calinou plenty of people actually do have free money
20:13 Calinou no, that's not theft in my book
20:13 Calinou theft is when you lose property of something
20:13 Calinou by definition, it basically can't happen on digital things
20:14 nerzhul i have childs and me which needs to eat
20:14 nerzhul and somes are doing money and eat on our work. It's not acceptable
20:14 nerzhul i agree for working on free software if everybody is clear, not for thiefs.
20:15 Fixer nerzhul: than MT needs to be relicensed
20:15 Fixer to shave off the fuckers
20:15 nerzhul if they fork and add adds to our software they violate our license
20:15 nerzhul like if we add GPL java part on the LGPL
20:15 nerzhul but they are worse
20:15 Calinou being poor does not automatically mean dying of hunger, too
20:15 nerzhul lol
20:15 Calinou also, a Minetest relicense is never going to happen
20:15 nerzhul sorry Calinou but you have many money and no problem.
20:15 Calinou except LGPL -> GPL because we don't need to ask anyone to do that
20:15 Calinou or LGPLv2+ -> LGPLv3+
20:16 Fixer Die big! (George Carlin)
20:16 nerzhul i have childs, i have the chance to buy my apartment but if i don't pay at the end of the month i'm in the street.
20:16 IhrFussel Ok well since you didn't reply to me here I added a comment on the issue anyway
20:16 nerzhul and somes are driving porsche and mazerati on our work. it's not acceptable.
20:17 octacian_ joined #minetest
20:17 nerzhul if we find a way to protect our userbase and keep them using our software and force forkers to close their doors it's acceptable.
20:17 Calinou I don't think these developers have such cars just yet :P
20:18 paramat no need to change desktop MT license, but i'm not bothered by relicensing the android app
20:18 Calinou paramat: it's not legal to do so anyway
20:18 nerzhul lol multicraft earn 100k $ on our work, but no it's not sufficient for a porshe
20:18 Calinou the Minetest Android app still uses the Minetest engine and game logic, both being under LGPLv2.1+
20:18 paramat ok
20:18 nerzhul 100k$ mean having 1 or 2 devs at full time on the project.
20:18 Calinou anyone with significant code in it can DMCA you down
20:18 Calinou and you will deserve it, don't worry
20:19 Calinou I'd do it if I had lots of code in Minetest, don't worry
20:19 paramat multicraft should donate to MT
20:19 nerzhul Calinou, answer me, for in app purchases which modify our LGPL code to add proprietary android code, and ads, i can nuke them ?
20:19 Fixer why would he?
20:19 nerzhul why would he?  there is no law to protect us against this thief
20:20 Calinou you can DMCA these apps for relying on proprietary SDKs
20:20 twoelk making mt strictly nc would exclude many distributation paths, as for example being included on a disk glued to a magazine
20:20 Calinou I don't know why you're not doing this
20:20 nerzhul in app purchase means modify our code and like MT with android proprietary google libs for in app purchases
20:20 Calinou twoelk: that's not really relevant these days…
20:20 nerzhul if i can and celeron55 supports me on it i send a mail in the week to google to nuke all of them.
20:20 Calinou but my concerns with NC clauses are not about that
20:21 Calinou these clauses are far too broad and uncertain
20:23 celeron55 the multicraft author/maintainer (i always forget his nick) has offered to monetarily help minetest if there's something to use money for
20:23 twoelk there may be better examples for strict NC not being the best idea but you might get the idea ;-D
20:24 nerzhul celeron55, it's different between having money ourself for all time we spent on project and just giving some breads
20:25 twoelk depends on size of bread
20:25 nerzhul if he got money to have a maintainer at 25, 50 or 100% on the project it's different...
20:25 celeron55 envy doesn't get you very far
20:26 nerzhul if it send us money to pay the servers to host various infrastructure points like forum, wikis, serverlist
20:26 octacian__ joined #minetest
20:26 Fixer haha, good luck
20:26 paramat Monte48 or something
20:26 Fixer he will say everything he does and legal according to licence celeron choiced
20:26 Fixer and = is
20:27 celeron55 but if you can point to, for example a good graphics artist that we could hire, monte48 might pay for it
20:27 Fixer he is just using the project for easy money, mostly, he did made few suggestion to improve android part
20:27 celeron55 well i guess i could ask money for the forums and stuff
20:28 Fixer "donate"
20:28 nerzhul it's different to tell us suggestions and give money to do things on the project
20:28 twoelk nothing wrong with making easy money
20:28 paramat and i have no income and my money will soon run out :]
20:28 Fixer i'm in no way connected to this all, just discussing
20:28 nerzhul yeah, i think i will prostitute tomorrow, it's easy money...
20:28 nerzhul it's like doing PR and letting others making money on our head
20:28 Fixer yep
20:29 Fixer hovewer, celeron selected the license :p
20:29 Fixer thats what we ended up with
20:30 nerzhul yes he selected it, no problem, the problem is we are fucked up by cowards
20:30 twoelk maybe we are just to stupid to make good use of money  offered
20:30 celeron55 i would've chosen BSD if i knew more about licenses back then
20:30 nerzhul celeron55, i'm okay for an artist after the minetest_game mir vs wayland war is finished :p
20:30 celeron55 and it would be even worse in this aspect
20:30 Fixer twoelk: yeah, why develope, if you can use some other people OSS hard work and have money of it contributing little to original project and even hurting it because cancerous ads and other negativity
20:30 Calinou yeah, basically any gamedev would rather have used a permissive license if they started it today
20:31 nerzhul celeron55, then microsoft never buy minecraft and take minetest lol (never because they need the user base)
20:31 Calinou Carmack himself stated "I wish I had used BSD instead" in 2013-12
20:31 Fixer nerzhul: mir is dead
20:31 nerzhul it's easy for Carmack to tell, if i used BSD... i never ate because other company steal my work in 1995 because it was internet and software war
20:31 nerzhul Fixer, yeah, :p
20:31 celeron55 but shitty chineses clones and others making money off your work is what you get with permissive licensing; it just is how it is
20:32 nerzhul but then, celeron55 do you agree i send DCMA to nuke forks adds ?
20:32 nerzhul with ads*
20:32 celeron55 we can always ask for money though; asking is not stupid
20:32 celeron55 altough what "we" means is really questionable, there's no "minetest" legal entity
20:32 celeron55 and i hate bureaucracy so i won't make it
20:32 nerzhul minetest foundation
20:33 nerzhul (better name is required :p)
20:33 nerzhul TheBlockFoundation
20:33 nerzhul :D
20:33 Fixer i've seen people saying fuck this game and rage quitting, guess why - ads/privs for money etc
20:33 nerzhul Fixer, and it's a side case, they said fuck to minetest
20:33 nerzhul not only the app
20:33 nerzhul monte48 should give us money, i will use it to promote minetest on playstore and send DCMA on ad forks :p
20:33 celeron55 nerzhul: i'm fine with any DMCAs that are correct
20:34 Fixer nerzhul: nah, they don't know what is minetest or what even the name of current game they are playing, typing /gamemode...
20:34 nerzhul celeron55, DCMA on ads mean DCMA on proprietary modifications on our code to ad ads.
20:34 nerzhul add* ads*
20:34 nerzhul if you are okay with that i will start the war
20:35 Fixer nerzhul: go trademark - nonprofit foundation - steam - sales - nuke other fuckers on android :trollface:
20:35 paramat hiring a professional graphic artist, or hiring anyone for anything, is not a good idea, it would be extremely expensive to get something of roughly the same quality as a talented contributor would do for free
20:35 Fixer nobody will do that though
20:35 celeron55 if the only way to show ads is C++ modifications (seems likely), of course DMCAs can be sent to those that don't provide source code
20:35 nerzhul KasBrick did a great work on textures, he does like... i can't remember name does
20:35 nerzhul go to appletree
20:36 nerzhul see the texture, it's proper, it's an identity, better than the raw and old mt :)
20:36 Fixer CDDA had successful kickstarter to have full time dev for few months to fix some things iirc
20:36 nerzhul celeron55, they can't and they link proprietary libs on minetest, which is forbidden by LGPL
20:37 rubenwardy the most important thing to me is that they follow prominent notice
20:37 Fixer nerzhul: why don't contact FSF to have some legal assistance?
20:37 Fixer if someone wants*
20:37 rubenwardy all apps which use Minetest as a library, ie: all those with ads, must give prominent notice that they use Minetest
20:37 rubenwardy so on the play store, and in the main menu
20:38 rubenwardy although only the latter I'm sure about
20:38 nerzhul yes they need that, but linking proprietary libs is forbidden too.
20:38 rubenwardy it's vague about download locations, but I interpretted that as implied
20:38 nerzhul to show ads you should tell minetest to send ads rendering to irrlicht if i remember
20:38 rubenwardy they'd need to use Minetest as a library, from proprietary code
20:38 rubenwardy and allow Minetest to be relinked with said proprietary code
20:39 celeron55 yeah, and as such a version of MT doesn't exist anywhere publicly, they have their own version
20:40 celeron55 even in the case of if they were crazy enough to modify MT to be a library (unlikely)
20:40 nerzhul celeron55, mt is a lib on android
20:40 rubenwardy as long as they share relevant modified code to end users, and have prominent notice / credit, I'm fine with it
20:40 celeron55 nerzhul: well, i mean functionally a library regarding to ads
20:40 rubenwardy they'd n
20:40 rubenwardy oops
20:40 nerzhul i asked on twitter https://twitter.com/nrzkt/​status/867842704343838721 we will see
20:40 rubenwardy I'd say that NDK classifies as a library
20:41 rubenwardy as the C++ code is made into an .so (I believe) and dynamically linked. But I
20:41 rubenwardy *But I'm unsure on this (been a while)
20:41 nerzhul it's dynamicly linked yes
20:42 celeron55 yes; then you could display ads if you give them to MT from the actual program that uses MT; i.e. link the program with the ad library, not minetest itself
20:42 celeron55 i wonder if they are doing that
20:42 rubenwardy exactamo
20:42 celeron55 then they need  to publish the version of MT that you can feed ads into
20:42 celeron55 the source code of it
20:42 rubenwardy I imagine the majority just reuse our Java code, which is LGPL
20:42 rubenwardy but I know that Multicraft rewrote the Java part
20:44 celeron55 "still a better overall ecosystem than microsoft's minecraft" - a new slogan for minetest
20:44 celeron55 :D
20:44 nerzhul you want free money, choose minetest...
20:45 rubenwardy btw, I wrote this: http://wiki.minetest.net/Licens​ing#Complying_with_the_License
20:45 nerzhul celeron55, i'm okay with BSD and LGPL when it's library, but a game needs to be protected, sharks are doing money on our head
20:45 Krock "great quality for the price compared to minecraft"
20:45 rubenwardy used the raw license text, and ffmpeg's compliance checklist
20:46 nerzhul rubenwardy, if you modify the code it should be distributed under the same license or compatible
20:46 rubenwardy I know, that's there
20:46 rubenwardy "must also be licensed under LGPL 2.1 or later, or a compatible license"
20:47 nerzhul y
20:47 rubenwardy also, > 10.5k tweets
20:47 rubenwardy impressive
20:48 nerzhul ?
20:48 nerzhul oh it's generally re-tweets
20:49 rubenwardy ah, I didn't scroll that far
20:54 celeron55 it would be nice of MT was dual-licensed (so that people could just pay and be done with it), but it's impossible in a licensing scheme like this where ownership of code is transferred to nobody
20:54 nerzhul not nobody, but every body who contribute
20:54 celeron55 MT would be GPL + proprietary licensed, but it was kind of impossible to get contributors on that scheme so i dropped it
20:55 nerzhul GPLv3 is sufficient to break all others
20:55 nerzhul they MUST be GPLv3
20:55 AlexYst Yeah, I see what you mean.
20:55 AlexYst I hate to be one of *those* people, but I wouldn't contribute if there were licence exceptions.
20:56 Fixer wtf with firefox lately, it consumes tons of memory, gigabytes... wtf
20:56 celeron55 due to that i'm kind of fine with all this anarchy, as to me it is what people wanted
20:57 AlexYst I like that slogan about the better overall ecosystem.
20:57 celeron55 i guess it's the other side of the copyright industry coin
20:57 nerzhul if world was not a shark world i would be fine, but it's not the case we all have lives and a work permitting us to eat and works means retribution.
20:57 celeron55 most people only see the other side
20:57 AlexYst I'm not feeling the one about the quality for the price. It makes it sound like price aside, Minetest sucks. It doesn't.
20:57 nerzhul if they don't retribute nuke
20:58 nerzhul https://play.google.com/store/apps/det​ails?id=free.voxelcraft.pocketedition
20:59 nerzhul it's based on minetest and open source they said
20:59 nerzhul we should comment on those app to tell it's shit and redirect to the real app :p
21:00 nerzhul https://play.google.com/store/apps/d​etails?id=net.bestsandapp.blockworld
21:00 nerzhul ads
21:01 nerzhul no minetest reference
21:01 Hijiri Calinou: nerzhul what about a clause requiring conspicuous attribution in app marketplace descriptions for the android app
21:01 Hijiri require a specific phrase like "Derived from the official Minetest app <link>"
21:01 nerzhul 500k downloads, how many money on our head !
21:04 nerzhul 100k downloads on minetest
21:04 Calinou Hijiri: requiring attribution won't fix it
21:04 Calinou and requiring attribution in software works is evil
21:04 Calinou https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html
21:04 fwhcat Hi guys
21:04 Calinou this article talks about the original BSD license (rarely used today), its main downside is that it required attribution
21:04 Calinou both GPL-incompatible and cumbersome
21:05 fwhcat hummm you can't do anything about these apps unless you change the license.
21:05 nerzhul the install uninstall grpah is interesting on MT, 12.6k install and 13.6k uninstall lol
21:05 nerzhul 6840 real installs for MT
21:05 nerzhul currently
21:06 fwhcat What about you add a more visible donate button on the website instead ?
21:06 Calinou fwhcat: technically we can – anyone with significant code in Minetest or Minetest Game can DMCA the apps because they do not follow the LGPLv2.1
21:06 Calinou why? because they all rely on proprietary SDKs for ads
21:06 Calinou we have proof of this, it's easy to get
21:06 Calinou fwhcat: donate buttons work only if you beg all the time, I've found
21:06 nerzhul strangely from march to may we incrase from 5k to 6k persistent installations
21:06 Calinou (and market it well)
21:06 Calinou this will also not make rogue apps disappear magically
21:07 Hijiri how much is significant code?
21:07 fwhcat Ok, what about the community actually maintain 2 versions of minetest
21:07 nerzhul there is no need for two versions
21:07 nerzhul engine have both versions inside it
21:07 Calinou makes no sense, yeah
21:07 Calinou Hijiri: it depends on how complex the actual code is
21:07 nerzhul it's already the case and it's also the problem
21:07 Calinou "is it original?" is the main question
21:07 fwhcat What I mean you could propose advanced features or limit features of the free version
21:08 mmuller FWIW, I don't think the LGLP explicitly precludes linking with proprietary libs.
21:08 Calinou you can't just say "49 lines of code are not copyrightable, 50 lines are"
21:08 mmuller (in fact, I think the intent was originally to the contrary)
21:08 Calinou mmuller: dynamic linking is allowed, static linking is not
21:08 Calinou from what I've seen
21:08 Calinou if you want to be sure, send an email to licensing@fsf.org, their volunteers might help
21:08 Calinou (it can take a while to get a reply, but I've got one, once)
21:08 Calinou (not Minetest-related though)
21:08 mmuller right. that's what I was about to suggest :-)
21:09 fwhcat Calinou, can you dynamic link minetest engine ?
21:09 Calinou I don't think so
21:09 fwhcat xD
21:09 mmuller but IIRC, static linking was a bit of a gray area
21:09 Calinou the problem here is that the ad SDKs themselves are statically linked, probably
21:09 Hijiri Doesn
21:09 Calinou on iOS the question isn't even to be asked: dynamic linking is not a thing on iOS
21:09 Hijiri sorry, nevermind
21:10 Calinou mmuller: it's allowed in two cases: 1) the user is allowed technically to replace the library themselves, 2) there is an exception in the LGPL added by the copyright owner to explicitly allow it (eg. wxWidgets)
21:10 Calinou 1) never happens in practice, really
21:10 fwhcat but you know, even if you'd gplv3 the app, sharks would still be sharks.
21:11 Calinou yes, it woud be as restrictive as you want, these people are not going to care about it
21:11 Calinou (no racism intended)
21:11 Pie-jacker875 joined #minetest
21:11 VanessaE I need testers on VE-Survival -- daconcepts.com 30001
21:12 fwhcat so the only thing is to make legal inquiries (ask for removal from google apps portal etc.) ?! is this even possible ?
21:12 fwhcat k VanessaE
21:12 fwhcat latest client needed or not?
21:12 VanessaE nah, just something reasonably recent.  connect with as many clients as your machine can safely handle,
21:12 VanessaE but no spamming please :P
21:13 Calinou fwhcat: DMCA is possible, it has been done in the past
21:13 Calinou but c55 does not want to do it anymore, he thinks it's too much paperwork and ultimately a waste of time as they always come back
21:13 Calinou Google and Apple don't give fucks about copyright infringement on their own platforms
21:13 nerzhul there is no paperwork
21:13 Calinou this is true not just for their app stores. but YouTube, for example, is also an heaven for t hat
21:13 Calinou that*
21:13 Calinou nerzhul: well, digital paper ;)
21:14 nerzhul i just go to report app, DCMA copy paste the same pattern because it's always the same thing to say, i add my mail, terminated
21:14 AlexYst VanessaE: daconcepts.com. ... Did you get a new domain, or do I just misremember?
21:14 * AlexYst opens a client
21:14 VanessaE AlexYst: new domain, the old one has since expired.
21:14 VanessaE shorter is better.
21:14 AlexYst Oh, sorry to hear that.
21:14 VanessaE nah
21:14 VanessaE the old one was too long
21:14 AlexYst SHorter is better though, yeah.
21:14 VanessaE I let it go
21:15 AlexYst Oh, okay, as long as it was a choice.
21:15 fwhcat why not vanes.sa ? xD
21:15 nerzhul https://play.google.com/intl/fr_ALL/about/ip-decep​tion-spam/impersonation-ip/unauthorized-copyright/
21:15 VanessaE fwhcat: because the name actually refers to a software group and hardware company I used to run
21:15 VanessaE kept the name for posterity sake
21:16 AlexYst VanessaE: Also, doesn't your partner have a section of the site too? vanes.sa wouldn't represent the pair of you.
21:17 nerzhul https://www.reddit.com/r/androidde​v/comments/20w54q/google_play_stor​e_dmca_takedown_for_gpl_violation/
21:18 nerzhul interesting too
21:18 VanessaE AlexYst: that too, but so few people visit his side of the site that I tend not to think about it
21:18 Tux[Qyou] joined #minetest
21:18 Grandolf hi
21:18 Grandolf i was useing WE in a private server, and its glitching i think
21:18 Grandolf it keeps placing chunks and i keep removing them
21:19 Grandolf how do i stop it?
21:20 fwhcat restart the server if you can
21:20 AlexYst Grandolf: Like ... generating new areas as you reach the edges? How are you removing them?
21:21 AlexYst It's going to take a while to connect. My home Internet connection is basically a 2G mobile data plan.
21:22 Grandolf im useing //cylinder y 50 90 air
21:23 Grandolf ik //remove regenerates the landscape
21:23 Grandolf hm
21:23 Grandolf clearobjects*
21:23 Grandolf or one of them :/
21:23 nerzhul left #minetest
21:25 AlexYst Ah, worldedit. I can't help then, I don't know how that mod works.
21:26 Pie-jacker875 joined #minetest
21:35 fwhcat Grandolf I don't understand your problem
21:35 fwhcat Worldedit only works by commands it doesn't do anything without your command.
21:36 fwhcat And nope, I don't see any way to regenerate the landscape without saving its state at first.
21:55 AlexYst My machine's overheating. Had to log off.
21:58 Calinou VanessaE: how many clones do you want?
21:59 Calinou I could script this perhaps
21:59 VanessaE no need now, Calinou
21:59 VanessaE testing is already done
22:04 Pie-jacker875 joined #minetest
22:04 Calinou ok
22:22 bigfoot547 joined #minetest
22:22 bigfoot547 Hi!
22:28 AlexYst joined #minetest
22:31 twoelk left #minetest
22:38 Lone_Wolf joined #minetest
22:39 sythe joined #minetest
22:48 Lone_Wolf I need help figuring this out xD
22:50 Lone_Wolf Bye
22:54 slemonide joined #minetest
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