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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2016-12-10

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Time Nick Message
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01:15 paramat game#1450 bugfix for missing sound
01:15 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest​/minetest_game/issues/1450 -- Default: Add missing 'default_dig_snappy' sound by paramat
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08:23 lhofhansl Just filed #4877
08:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4877 -- Limit Active Block Range to what player can see. Retrieve a spherical volume. by lhofhansl
08:23 lhofhansl another optimization based on the player
08:24 lhofhansl the player's view range. This time of about active blocks.
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08:24 lhofhansl s/of/it's/
08:25 hmmmm http://dev.minetest.net/Code_s​tyle_guidelines#If_statements
08:27 hmmmm as for the actual PR
08:28 hmmmm i don't feel like it's an optimization, this is just making the active block range shorter.  that causes different problems..  a better optimization would be to make running ABMs less costly, so that larger ranges can be used
08:29 lhofhansl OK... "if (range <= 0) range = active_block_range" is really the same as "range = range <= 0 ? active_block_range : range" so it seems one line is fine. Can do two lines.
08:29 hmmmm for those types of statement MYMIN(), MYMAX() or rangelim() would be preferred
08:29 hmmmm statements
08:29 lhofhansl hmmmm: it lets you increase active_block_range and still get decent behavior with clients that do not use the full range.
08:30 lhofhansl right now active_block_range defaults to 2 which is quite small. With that one can set it higher.
08:30 hmmmm the client sets the active block range?
08:31 lhofhansl no the server does. Now that value can be a increase a bit.
08:31 lhofhansl It's weird when active objects just disappear when you just 40 or so blocks away.
08:32 hmmmm set higher
08:32 lhofhansl this aligns it with what you can actually see on the client, up to the setting.
08:32 hmmmm because with a spherical range it lops off the edges
08:32 hmmmm ?
08:32 lhofhansl Same as #4811 which did this for active objects only.
08:32 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4811 -- Optimize/adjust blocks/ActiveObjects sent at the server based on client settings. by lhofhansl
08:32 hmmmm if you increase the range to 3 or something that's still going to be strictly greater than a cuboid of 2
08:33 hmmmm well that PR is different from this PR
08:34 lhofhansl Yep. There're parts: (1) retrieve a sphere (saves about 40% of objects to process), and (2) take the clients view range into account and do not process things that client cannot see anyway.
08:34 hmmmm the ABM catchup code doesn't account for blocks outside of the active block range, does it
08:34 hmmmm only blocks loaded from an unloaded state
08:34 lhofhansl right
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08:35 hmmmm so your chief complaint was that the client would be able to see a block become inactive even though it's still within sight range
08:35 lhofhansl so active_block_range is upper limit set by the server. If the client sees less it's not processed.
08:36 lhofhansl Yep... And there's no one good setting for the server, because it really depends on how the client can see things.
08:36 hmmmm okay so this strictly is an optimization in that kind of sense
08:36 lhofhansl So either things disappear or they are unnecessarily processed.
08:37 hmmmm for block sending, active object sending, and now you want active block modifiers, you want it so that if the player can't see it, you don't need to do it
08:37 hmmmm whereas if the client has a view range greater than the max set by the server config, they can still see it
08:37 hmmmm but what about latency
08:37 lhofhansl no the server sets the max.
08:37 hmmmm players can move around quite fast
08:38 lhofhansl client can only reduce it
08:38 hmmmm so if you have a max active block range of say 3
08:38 hmmmm and the player has a viewing range of 1
08:39 lhofhansl same problem as it is now only that the server is "hardcoding" the setting for all clients regardless of how far they can see stuff.
08:39 hmmmm and the player moves really quickly a block in some direction
08:39 lhofhansl (it's map blocks, but yeah same point)
08:39 hmmmm because of the optimization, abms will not have run for the player within that frame of time and there'd be the latency in getting it to start running again
08:39 lhofhansl that's how it would work, yes
08:40 hmmmm it's an unfortunate side effect
08:40 lhofhansl agreed
08:40 hmmmm but the real problem exists in the slow block sending and ABM running
08:40 lhofhansl the ABM might be in Lua. can be arbitrarily slow.
08:40 hmmmm oh of course
08:40 hmmmm but that's capitalism for mods
08:40 lhofhansl :)
08:41 hmmmm they need to stay fast or else they'll get overtaken by the competition
08:41 lhofhansl At least we should process stuff in a sphere only, not the cuboid.
08:41 hmmmm or at least in theory... in reality it's still kind of difficult for server administrators to see which mods are causing the lag
08:41 hmmmm anyway ABMs are usually not that slow
08:42 hmmmm but what is slow is the node scanning
08:42 hmmmm iirc i profiled this a while back and the node scanning (which is not lua) takes up a solid 55% of cpu time
08:42 lhofhansl it you set active_block_range to 5 or 6 it gets quite slow I find.
08:42 hmmmm but that's with a vanilla minetest_game
08:42 hmmmm 55% of cpu time spent in ABM processing* to clarify
08:43 lhofhansl If we retrieve a sphere at least, we can default active block range to 3 with about the same number of objects processed.
08:44 lhofhansl maybe that's all I should change, and get rid of the view_range stuff.
08:44 hmmmm at such a small radius, these spheres really look like diamonds
08:44 hmmmm you might be chopping off more blocks than you think
08:44 hmmmm small integer radius anyway
08:44 lhofhansl I counted the blocks. Does 93 instead of 125 with the default of 2.
08:45 hmmmm that's a respectable difference
08:45 hmmmm 125 is the amount with radius = 2, right?
08:45 lhofhansl yep
08:45 hmmmm because it's 2+1+2 = 5 for each direction
08:45 hmmmm right ok
08:46 lhofhansl exactly 5^3
08:46 hmmmm mmm
08:46 lhofhansl the sphere is a bit less than 4/3*pi*3^3 in that case.
08:46 lhofhansl (due to the <= check)
08:47 hmmmm you did the same if (foobar) foobar = 5; thing in the other PR
08:47 hmmmm dammit
08:47 lhofhansl yeah
08:47 lhofhansl happy to change it
08:47 hmmmm it's not really a big enough deal to warrant a new PR
08:48 hmmmm it'll get cleaned up in somebody's omni-cleanup commit
08:48 hmmmm also what's up with making POD typed parameters "const"
08:48 hmmmm ...did nerzhul tell you to do that?
08:49 lhofhansl somebody commented on that PR to that extend.
08:49 lhofhansl forgot who
08:49 hmmmm that's dumb
08:49 hmmmm it's nerzuhl
08:49 hmmmm he can't contribute by doing real reviews so he focuses on trivial personal preferences
08:50 hmmmm i don't review often because reviewing takes real time and effort if you want to be worth more than a static code analyzer
08:50 lhofhansl what's dumb about it?
08:51 OldCoder hmmmm, and yet it's necessary
08:51 hmmmm because who cares if you modify the formal parameter of a function
08:51 hmmmm nobody is getting hurt by it
08:51 hmmmm the only time you need to use the const qualifier (with our code standards anyway) is if passing a reference
08:53 lhofhansl went by the style of the methods around. don't really care
08:53 hmmmm i feel like i'm wasting my time by discussing such trivial code style matters tbh
08:53 hmmmm maybe there should be a script that checks submissions
08:53 hmmmm so i don't need to point anything like this out and instead work on logic
08:54 lhofhansl it's not wasted time, I think.
08:54 lhofhansl With a reasonably sized code base these thing become important.
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08:56 hmmmm well i did find at least one real error in your PR
08:56 hmmmm static const blah foobar = g_settings->getBlah();   <--- see any problems?
08:56 lhofhansl That's what we reviews for :)
08:56 lhofhansl but that line I just moved :)
08:57 hmmmm touche
08:57 hmmmm you could fix a bug with this PR as well then
08:57 lhofhansl yep
08:58 lhofhansl wait... when can this be changed. Not in-game, right?
08:58 hmmmm no
08:58 hmmmm hmm
08:58 lhofhansl I was also told reading from GlobalSettings is slow (probably not an issue here, since it's called once/sec)
08:59 hmmmm right, it's only inside of loops
08:59 hmmmm that's the case you should worry about
09:00 lhofhansl alright... very late here... need to catch some sleep.
09:00 hmmmm you can modify active_block_range from within a mod or by plizadam's everything-config-page
09:01 hmmmm with the former you can definitely expose this bug
09:01 hmmmm ahh no it happens with the latter as well
09:01 hmmmm it has to modify the active settings in order to get saved to the config file
09:02 hmmmm so yeah.  in two cases you'd be able to modify active_block_range, restart the game, and the old setting will be in effect until you actually close the application and restart.
09:03 lhofhansl I'll fix that on the way... also adjust the layout of the ifs.
09:03 hmmmm sure
09:04 hmmmm you're also missing a const on a parameter passed as a reference btw
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09:05 lhofhansl for the &ranges?
09:05 hmmmm yes
09:05 hmmmm you're not modifying ranges, are you?
09:06 lhofhansl Again I went by the surrounding code. Not sure what the wanted style is when everything around it does it differently
09:06 hmmmm good thing there's a wiki page for it http://dev.minetest.net/Code_style_guidelines
09:07 lhofhansl I'll fix that too.
09:07 lhofhansl OK... TTYL... Need to sleep.
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10:47 Wuzzy Does the Feature Freeze™ imply a string freeze?
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12:06 Wuzzy Are questions about strings (for translation) on-topic here?
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12:40 celeron55 has something changed in occlusion culling?
12:40 celeron55 because i think this is way more broken than i remember this being
12:41 celeron55 i just dug a straight 3x4 tunnel and MT absolutely refuses to render it
12:42 celeron55 this is stupid
12:45 sfan5 there were some changes afaik
12:46 sfan5 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/2b21cac1d80454bd23c5f60c4570b30edba62584 this?
12:49 celeron55 seems to be broken before that too; i guess this is just a very unfortunate place for a tunnel
12:51 celeron55 i wish there was a setting to just plain disable occlusion culling if i want to
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12:54 celeron55 well this is easy to add for sure...
12:55 jin_xi 50 MESE blocks on fps gain
12:58 celeron55 well in what i'm doing it's 60fps with, 60fps without
13:00 celeron55 if i run on my dedicated card which allows more than 60, it more than halves the fps (from 130 to 60)
13:01 celeron55 doesn't matter
13:01 celeron55 i just want to see this damn tunnel
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16:05 VanessaE celeron55: you sure it isn't just your view range being too short?
16:06 celeron55 that's not a relevant question when just disabling the culling already fixed it
16:06 * VanessaE shrugs
16:09 Fixer probably celeron selected unlucky spot for tunnel that is prone to occlusion mismatch
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16:18 lhofhansl Updated #4877, I think there's some misunderstanding around it.
16:18 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4877 -- Limit Active Block Range to what player can see. Retrieve a spherical volume. by lhofhansl
16:22 sfan5 spherical sounds fine, increating the active block range would be wonderful
16:22 sfan5 being able to increase*
16:23 lhofhansl Maybe I split it into two. Do the spherial in one (which also increased active_block_range's default to 3 map blocks.
16:23 lhofhansl In the other I do the view-range. Then you can shred the 2nd to pieces :)
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18:10 lhofhansl So is there interest in just doing the spherical part of #4877?
18:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4877 -- Limit Active Block Range to what player can see. Retrieve a spherical volume. by lhofhansl
18:17 sfan5 i would +1 that
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18:36 lhofhansl See #4881 (also increases active_block_range, so that may cause some discussion)
18:36 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4881 -- Process AMBs in a spherical volume instead of a cuboid by lhofhansl
18:36 VanessaE what's an AMB? :)
18:37 lhofhansl Oops :)
18:41 sfan5 lhofhansl: two minor things: nodes not blocks, you can change any settings at runtime via /set
18:41 sfan5 the question is whether it makes sense for setting changes to go into effect immediately
18:42 est31 the problem is that it cant be asked for every server step
18:42 est31 because retrieving settings is very slow
18:42 est31 the string is not interned
18:42 lhofhansl that's just called once/sec, though.
18:44 juhdanad By the way, there are two kinds of ABM: the ones which have a small chance and the ones which are always happen (for example lava cooling).
18:45 juhdanad The latter should be implemented with node timers IMO.
18:45 lhofhansl not emotionally attached to the static const change :)
18:46 sfan5 node timers are specific to a single node though
18:47 sfan5 you'd need to add/remove them everytime the liquid moves
18:47 lhofhansl any concerns about increasing active_block_range to 3. Even with the other changes it will double the active blocks to process. (I think that's fine, but wanted to call to that out)
18:47 lhofhansl s/blocks/nodes/
18:48 sfan5 no no
18:49 sfan5 active_block_range is in blocks
18:49 lhofhansl Still mostly new Minetest.
18:49 sfan5 but in "A 5x5x5 cube (range = 2) has 125 blocks." it's nodes
18:49 lhofhansl I see.
18:49 sfan5 http://dev.minetest.net/Basic_data_structures
18:51 lhofhansl Oh OK. I have been referring in my mind to these as blocks and map blocks. Will use nodes.
18:51 juhdanad sfan5: what I meant: lava flows->lava gets an update->if there is water, calls minetest.after(0) or sets a timer to set itself to stone.
18:51 lhofhansl the 5x5x5 are map blocks, though, no? The range is given in map blocks.
18:52 juhdanad water flows->water gets updated->lava gets updated because a neighbor changed->lava transforms itself
18:52 sfan5 lhofhansl: one map blocks is 16x16x16
18:52 sfan5 active_block_range is the range in mapblocks
18:53 sfan5 juhdanad: you would still need to remove add node timers everytime something changes with the liquids
18:54 lhofhansl right, in that loop we are enumerating map blocks.
18:54 sfan5 yes
18:54 juhdanad It is still faster than scanning trough all nodes in each second.
18:54 sfan5 how do you know?
18:55 lhofhansl (anyway, not that important, I get the difference between a node and a map block, had to deal with that in #4811 and #4724, just didn't use the right term here)
18:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4811 -- Optimize/adjust blocks/ActiveObjects sent at the server based on client settings. by lhofhansl
18:55 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4724 -- Improve number of blocks sent and occlusion culling. by lhofhansl
18:56 juhdanad I only think it can be faster. It is very rare that more than one sixth of all loaded nodes are actually changing liquids.
18:57 juhdanad And you only need to check one node timer per tick: the one which will be first executed (so you can sort them by execution time).
18:58 juhdanad So it is effectively checking one node per program cycle if nothing changes.
18:58 lhofhansl juhdanad: what about you #4847? Seems to be an important fix.
18:58 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4847 -- Fix unnecessary block loading by juhdanad
18:58 sfan5 it's checking zero nodes if a node timer doesn't fire
18:59 juhdanad And ABMs not only check all nodes, but their neighbors too.
19:00 juhdanad This is why I think converting to node timers might worth a try.
19:02 lhofhansl I found when active_block_range is larger ABMHandler.apply becomes the most expensive operation. That's what prompted me to think about the sphere volume and to limit by view-range.
19:02 juhdanad lhofhansl: it is only important if you are exploring. If all blocks are generated around you then it doesn't make a difference.
19:02 juhdanad I mean #4847 ^
19:03 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4847 -- Fix unnecessary block loading by juhdanad
19:03 lhofhansl I see. Will the reloading also create new active objects as Rogier-5 suspects?
19:04 sfan5 it shouldn't
19:04 sfan5 however if the objects fall out of the world they might not get deleted when the block is reloaded
19:04 juhdanad I'm testing it right now.
19:04 sfan5 i doubt minetest forgets to delete objects when (re-)loading a block
19:04 lhofhansl OK. Then it does no harm other than increase disk reads (and those would likely come from the page cache anyway)
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19:12 juhdanad I found it! When the server loads a mapblock, it does not clear static objects.
19:12 sfan5 it doesn't do that at all or just in this specific case?
19:13 juhdanad So because not generated blocks with items were loaded multiple times, the loaded items were duplicated.
19:13 juhdanad sfan5: I don't understand your question.
19:14 sfan5 does it never clear static objects?
19:14 sfan5 or does this only happen at the world border?
19:15 juhdanad It never clears objects. You can have duplicated monsters if they happen to be in a half-generated area.
19:16 juhdanad I'll push a fix to #4847 soon.
19:16 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4847 -- Fix unnecessary block loading by juhdanad
19:29 juhdanad Pushed!
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19:34 lisac Hello. Is there currently a feature to make gravity pull towards a block in MT?
19:35 sfan5 no
19:35 lisac :(
19:35 lisac Thanks.
19:35 juhdanad Should the player walk on the side or the bottom of the block, then?
19:36 lisac Well, I just saw this mod https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=9&amp;t=15933 and wondered if one could make it possible to actually walk on the planets.
19:37 juhdanad Well, I recommend Spheretest then: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztAg643gJBA
19:39 garywhite Question: Jeija made that, and although it says about MC, it looks like MT textures
19:40 juhdanad This is a Minetest fork, the title means 'Minecraft-like world'
19:42 garywhite ok hang on, does that mean that if it's still basically Minetest under the hood, does that mean that someone could create a Spheretest world that MT clients can join?
19:43 juhdanad It is Minetest, just the client has a different renderer.
19:44 juhdanad Oh, and the world is finite.
19:44 garywhite Hang on, it's just a copy of 0.4.14-dev with a demo world
19:44 garywhite 0.4.14-dev with the old MSVC renderer
19:45 garywhite & it looks like a freakin cartoon
19:46 juhdanad Did you follow readme.mt?
19:46 garywhite no
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22:53 Fixer !tell paramat are you planning to add flowing water sound to that fire sound mod?
22:53 ShadowBot Fixer: O.K.
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23:11 paramat maybe
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23:46 paramat #4847 could perhaps be considered for release as it fixes 2 bugs
23:46 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/4847 -- Fix unnecessary block loading and duplicating objects by juhdanad
23:48 Fixer managed to cought reproducable crash after some --- with saved earlier map
23:49 Fixer will make backtrace
23:54 Fixer have we changed mapblock format recently?
23:54 paramat i doubt it
23:55 Fixer seen error about mapblock format: you probably made map in never version of minetest
23:55 Fixer 2016-12-11 01:55:26: ERROR[Main]: ServerError: World data version mismatch in MapBlock (0,0,11)
23:55 Fixer 2016-12-11 01:55:26: ERROR[Main]: World probably saved by a newer version of Minetest.
23:56 Fixer indeed i played it in never version
23:57 Fixer will post a new crash issue not related to this

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