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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-05-23

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Time Nick Message
00:17 Wayward_Tab joined #minetest-dev
00:32 hmmmm looks good
00:33 jin_xi joined #minetest-dev
00:35 paramat okay. PR is updated and waiting for checks #2713
00:35 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2713 -- Mgv5/v7: Fix generateBiomes biome recalculation logic, improve code by paramat
00:36 hmmmm BIOMEGEN_BASE can collide
00:36 hmmmm BIOMEGEN_V7_BASE and such
00:37 hmmmm if you include both mapgen_v7.h and mapgen_v5.h it would fail to build
00:38 paramat aha
00:38 paramat will fix
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00:39 hmmmm paramat, do you know if in minecraft that if you walk into a different biome, will the grass nodes of the other biome you just left change in color too?
00:40 paramat no idea, that seems wrong
00:41 paramat well i doubt it, i would notice that watching MC videos
00:41 hmmmm how on earth does the biome-specific grass tinting work then
00:42 hmmmm is it gradual or something?  how about the sky color
00:45 paramat not too sure, think grass colour dither-blends like ours
00:45 hmmmm anyway i was thinking for a while
00:45 hmmmm terrain biomes are hard
00:46 hmmmm they're easy for minecraft because they have *one* map generator
00:46 hmmmm but in a general sense this is much more technically challenging than i had ever imagined
00:46 nolsen Where is the player body movement located?
00:47 hmmmm although I don't particularily like this, it may possibly make the most sense to have each mapgen provide terrain hints like i was saying before
00:47 hmmmm I tried a bunch of things like flood filling closed regions of terrain from edge detection
00:47 hmmmm that failed miserably
00:49 hmmmm nolsen, try content_cao.cpp
00:50 hmmmm rather, sao i meant
00:58 paramat okay PR updated
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01:01 nolsen #2716
01:01 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2716 -- Make heads movable when character is moving.
01:02 nolsen s/character moving/character looking
01:02 nolsen erm s/character is moving/character is looking
01:03 paramat i'd love head movement as in MC
01:03 paramat adds so much humour and character
01:03 nolsen It'll be creepy in real life if you couldn't move your head.
01:03 hmmmm lolol
01:03 nolsen "I can't find my cup"
01:03 hmmmm minetest needs a LOT more higher priority work than that
01:03 hmmmm :|
01:04 hmmmm anyway
01:04 hmmmm paramat:  looks good to me
01:04 nolsen It'll be like turning around in the old resident evil, that would be creeper.
01:04 nolsen s/creeper/creepy
01:04 paramat thanks
01:04 hmmmm dunno if this is considered weird or not
01:05 hmmmm but sometimes i talk to myself in comments
01:05 hmmmm i ended up writing this exhaustive spiel on what we could do about terrain biomes
01:05 paramat hmmmmm do you have an opinion on making mgv6 snowbiomes enabled by default? i assume if i increase biome noise spread in v6.cpp this will not break old worlds..
01:05 hmmmm i'll probably clean it up and make a mailing list post about it
01:05 nolsen I would pull request with head movement, but I'm not sure what language do I need to learn.
01:05 hmmmm paramat, it won't break anything, no
01:05 nolsen or where to add it.
01:06 hmmmm nolsen:  lol.  if you don't know C++, you have an extremely long way ahead of you
01:06 paramat nah not weird, writng you thoughts is useful
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01:06 paramat (your)
01:06 hmmmm having the programming mindset is one huge prerequisite
01:06 hmmmm knowing C++ well /enough/ is another huge prerequisite
01:07 hmmmm then, understanding how minetest works is even bigger
01:07 hmmmm without all those three, sorry to say this, you probably won't get very far in core development
01:07 hmmmm :/
01:07 nolsen Meh, minetest_game is more easier.
01:07 nolsen It's lua.
01:08 hmmmm and by the way, adding head movement is not something trivial by any means
01:08 nolsen No but it would be nice.
01:08 nolsen oh I know what you mean.
01:09 hmmmm have a look at content_cao.cpp, content_sao.cpp, player movement network packets
01:09 hmmmm the gist of what you want to do is include player head pitch/roll/yaw along with movement packets
01:09 nolsen I thought of just doing a different issue which is kicking users for going to fast which I discovered earlier.
01:10 hmmmm and then figure out an efficient scheme to decide when to send head movements
01:10 nolsen There is a way to go over a certain walk speed and barely get caught by the server and get pos reset.
01:10 hmmmm and then modify SmoothTranslator to work on the head mesh
01:11 Wayward_Tab I heard head movement was currently limited by irrlicht...?
01:11 hmmmm i don't see why
01:11 Wayward_Tab Huh
01:11 VanessaE hmmmm: animation blending.
01:11 VanessaE apparently it's very tricky to blend a plain old animation with manual bone positioning.
01:11 nolsen Imagine your character's head staring INTO YOUR SOUL.
01:11 nolsen jk
01:12 VanessaE also, kaeza has done head movement before
01:12 hmmmm ahh
01:12 VanessaE entirely server-side from what I remember
01:12 VanessaE it caused a huge network load but it was just proof-of-contept
01:12 VanessaE er concept*
01:12 hmmmm did he make the player head a separate SAO?
01:12 VanessaE I don't remember how he did it
01:13 VanessaE that MIGHT have been it though
01:13 hmmmm yeah that sounds the simplest but obviously hacky as shit
01:13 VanessaE yep
01:13 nolsen I also know a few more ideas to add to Minetest :P
01:13 VanessaE by "huge network load" I mean a continuous 100 kB/sec stream :)
01:13 hmmmm nolsen, we have enough idea guys.  we need more doer guys
01:13 hmmmm :)
01:14 nolsen hmmmm: Do you have enough idea+++...++++ guys?
01:14 hmmmm no idea what that is
01:15 hmmmm VanessaE:  I can understand high network load if they're all SAO updates every single server tick
01:15 hmmmm if it's integrated better with regular player movement, you shouldn't have that problem
01:15 VanessaE yep, I think was something very much along those lines.
01:15 VanessaE +it
01:15 hmmmm well
01:15 hmmmm i think it's technically plausible
01:15 VanessaE but the whole point was to demonstrate that a movable head is possible :)
01:16 hmmmm the animation blending thing, we'd have to probably split the head and body into separate meshes
01:16 VanessaE deciding when to turn the head versus the body is easy:  always turn the head, unless the player *walks*, then turn the body and head to follow.
01:16 paramat now pushing 2713
01:16 VanessaE yeah, splitting them wouldn't be too hard - model-wise it's easy to UV-map the head from the same texture file as the body, too
01:16 VanessaE code-wise is a different matter...
01:17 hmmmm attaching multiple meshes to a single activeobject?
01:17 hmmmm it shouldn't be too hard
01:17 nolsen Well the head has a bit of a head movement
01:17 nolsen when you walk...
01:17 hmmmm besides, i can see other potential uses for it
01:17 VanessaE nolsen: that's part of the walk animation
01:18 nolsen Though I'm not sure if that's realistic
01:18 nolsen Because I don't walk around with my head as a fish
01:18 VanessaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTk8ktb466g
01:18 VanessaE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgDcawUioeY
01:18 VanessaE those are all I could find from kaeza's original work
01:18 VanessaE obviously "try2" is the working one.
01:19 nolsen nvm people do walk like their head is a fish: http://www.monkeyfacenews.com/.a/6a​0120a5c94e03970b015432ffa442970c-pi
01:19 nolsen jk
01:22 nolsen Does anyone notice that fast move only works when flying?
01:22 nolsen which sounds pointless.
01:22 VanessaE nolsen: hold "e" to run fast
01:22 VanessaE (after you turn fast mode on)
01:23 VanessaE w+e = run forward fast, s+e = run backward, etc.
01:23 paramat done. my commit message ended up as one line somehow
01:24 VanessaE hmmmm: I wonder if this is useful:  https://github.com/kaeza/minetes​t-animplus/blob/master/init.lua
01:24 hmmmm it could be.. shrug
01:25 VanessaE anyway that's all I got :)
01:25 VanessaE I'll try to make a point to ask next time I see him.
01:25 VanessaE bbl
01:25 nolsen I think Minetest needs to implemint Python! :D
01:25 nolsen Python! Python! Python!
01:25 hmmmm sounds great
01:25 hmmmm you gonna do it?
01:25 nolsen Because that is the only language I am really great at.
01:25 nolsen Uhh no.
01:26 hmmmm anyway
01:26 hmmmm paramat:  dwell on the philosophical question of how we know the difference between a pond and an ocean
01:26 nolsen how would you impleiment python anyways?
01:27 paramat that's like a zen koan
01:27 hmmmm nolsen:  you'd start out by adding the necessary dependency things in CMakeLists.txt, then create a new script/ subdirectory, and basically copy everything there, except do it using the python interpreter instead of lua
01:27 hmmmm and then make a copy of all the functionality of builtin/
01:28 hmmmm 8) minetest is loosely coupled to lua
01:28 hmmmm paramat:  if you can answer that question, then we have a winner
01:28 nolsen So basicly create minetest_game
01:29 hmmmm my answer to it is that we can't know
01:30 hmmmm an ocean is a large body of water that may extend throughout several generated chunks
01:30 hmmmm a pond is a body of water that may extend throughout several generated chunks as well
01:30 hmmmm so the only possible way to discriminate against the types of bodies of water is depth
01:31 hmmmm we'd say something is an ocean biome if it has an elevation between, say, -14 and -300, or something.  i don't know
01:31 hmmmm and then -14 to -5 is what, a lake?
01:31 hmmmm then how is that any different from shore
01:33 hmmmm and then how do you tell if something is an island
01:33 hmmmm you can't do any of these things unless you have the rough layout of the entire map beforehand.  with minecraft they do have this
01:33 hmmmm which, again, constrains you to a very specific style of map generation
01:34 hmmmm i'm beginning to wonder if this pursuit is a waste of time
01:35 hmmmm or maybe I need to increase the coupling between biomes and mapgens
01:35 nolsen hmmmm: What about the implemintation of having dropped items destroied by lava.
01:36 nolsen Like in Minecraft?
01:36 nolsen That is something I might could do.
01:36 hmmmm that sounds like a minetest_game thing
01:37 nolsen I could also have torches match the same light level given as MC
01:38 hmmmm ehh
01:38 nolsen Because torches in game appear to be low lighted items
01:38 nolsen I have to place more than in MC
01:38 nolsen According to Minecraft, it gives 14 light
01:38 hmmmm are these things you personally want, or things you think minetest is lacking
01:38 * nolsen checks Mine_test
01:38 nolsen minetest is lacking.
01:39 nolsen Though I think it would be an improvement.
01:39 nolsen A tweak I guess.
01:39 hmmmm if you just want to contribute to minetest, take a look at the issue tracker on github
01:41 nolsen It looks easy to tweak all the things to match minecraft, like block resistance against TNT.
01:41 hmmmm you realize that the goal isn't to match minecraft, correct?
01:42 hmmmm anyway, people have made minecraft clone games for minetest
01:42 hmmmm there are several iirc, ask vanessae about those.
01:42 nolsen hmmmm: oh no.
01:43 paramat ocean/pond thing: i came up with 'it's not worth even trying'
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01:44 hmmmm ocean vs. pond, island vs. land mass
01:44 hmmmm terrain biome hints should be on a per-mapgen basis
01:44 nolsen island is a miniture version of land, except the outsides are covered with water.
01:44 nolsen There you go :P
01:44 hmmmm there will clearly be a couple that are common to all mapgens
01:45 nolsen pond is a miniture and shallow version of a ocean.
01:45 nolsen and there you go
01:45 nolsen the answers.
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01:45 hmmmm lol
01:45 nolsen s/shallow/shallower
01:45 hmmmm nolsen just answered the tough technical questions
01:45 hmmmm anyway
01:45 nolsen My cat won't shut up ._.
01:45 hmmmm we can't figure out what an island is or isn't with perlin noise based mapgens
01:45 nolsen <nolsen> island is a miniture version of land, except the outsides are covered with water.
01:46 hmmmm okay, thanks.
01:46 hmmmm you don't understand the issues
01:46 nolsen like hawaii.
01:46 nolsen Hawaii is an island, correct?
01:46 hmmmm dunno
01:46 hmmmm more like a group of islands
01:46 nolsen yea.
01:46 hmmmm but how do you know that hawaii is an island, but australia isn't?
01:46 nolsen australia is an island
01:46 hmmmm what about the americas
01:47 hmmmm are the americas an island?
01:47 nolsen now what are land is like uhh iraq?
01:47 * nolsen looks at the globe
01:47 paramat minetest has better mapgen than MC anyway
01:47 hmmmm in any case, #minetest-dev is for serious discussion only
01:47 hmmmm banter should be kept in #minetest
01:47 hmmmm so right
01:47 nolsen banter?
01:48 hmmmm basically i came to the conclusion that not only is the level of effort too high to distinguish islands from land masses and oceans from ponds, it's tecnhically impossible due to the chunking behavior
01:48 paramat yes
01:48 nolsen hmmmm: I got the answer!
01:48 hmmmm that doesn't mean there can be no island or ocean biome hints ever
01:49 nolsen Land mass is basicly like a country that isn't surrended by an ocean.
01:49 nolsen or area
01:49 hmmmm they would only be available in PRNG fractal point cloud based mapgens like minecraft
01:49 hmmmm people often repeat that minecraft has a perlin noise generated world, but that's only 30% true
01:49 hmmmm perlin noise is used for the specifics
01:49 hmmmm the overall land shape is formed with a very different algorithm
01:50 nolsen Well let's look at minecraft source code :P
01:50 paramat that's why i find MC's large scale structure lacking
01:50 hmmmm nolsen:  again, this channel is for serious discussion only
01:51 hmmmm yeah.  MC overuses uniform RNGs and things that are supposed to be random are more or less noisy, but predictable
01:51 hmmmm if they had implemented a biased RNG things would perhaps be more interesting
01:51 hmmmm that's still no reason to jump ship and use their algorithm
01:52 paramat i may be wrong but MC seems like a too-regular patchwork of terrain types, the biome shapes dictate the large scale terrain structure, so it's boring
01:52 hmmmm well
01:53 hmmmm sorta
01:53 hmmmm or rather, no, you're right
01:53 hmmmm biomes dictate everything
01:53 hmmmm we explicitly say that's a horrible idea, give me freedom or give me death
01:54 hmmmm and accept the inherent technical challenges in generalizing something like this
01:54 paramat XL terrain structure should come first and be free, then choose biome on heat/humidity/altitude/whatever
01:55 hmmmm the biome-first approach has its merits though
01:55 hmmmm you're able to choose your own large overall shape
01:55 paramat next i want to try continental scale variation on a scale of ~16000
01:56 hmmmm if you want large continents, no problem, just lower the rarity of land
01:56 hmmmm but then again you could argue that we can do the same by varying water_level
01:56 rom1504 is there any point to having such big map ?
01:56 hmmmm sure
01:57 paramat wow someone thinks it's big!
01:57 rom1504 it would be mainly empty of player and player constructions
01:57 hmmmm that's a change from the usual "I teleported to the map edge and I don't think it's big enough now!"
01:58 hmmmm rom1504, there's a mod to limit world size if i recall right
01:58 paramat it's only just big enough for my ideas
01:58 rom1504 hmm ok
01:58 hmmmm so let's imagine this from an end user's perspective
01:59 hmmmm we write this biome pack with all these cool biomes and decorations
01:59 hmmmm then some people decide to use cooldude23's lua mapgen mod
01:59 hmmmm all of a sudden islands aren't detected as well as oceans
01:59 hmmmm is this inherently bad?
02:00 rom1504 I guess the point of a big map might be something like http://overviewer.org/wow/#/-2410/64/6763/-9/0/0
02:02 hmmmm that looks pretty cool
02:02 hmmmm i'd like to generate something like that
02:02 nolsen hmmmm: Hmm, are you supposed to be able to see in one's locked chest?
02:03 hmmmm i guess
02:03 nolsen Because I originally couldn't now I can for some reason
02:04 nolsen oh that was an owned chest
02:04 nolsen not locked
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02:06 paramat nolsen that sort of subject is for minetest channel not here
02:07 nolsen I thought this channel is about bugs/errors
02:07 nolsen and development
02:11 paramat hmmmmm i remember you think there's too many rivers in mgv7. i'm thinking of doubling ridge_uwater spread to 1000 and adding an octave, this will also reduce small-scale looping, more long distance routes
02:13 paramat anyway for snowbiomes i'll wait for more feedback but i think i will make them default and increase biome spread to 500 to match humidity spread
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02:53 multicoder Hello, what would cause minetest.get_us_time to return nill?
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03:03 hmmmm multicoder, it never returns nil
03:04 hmmmm it always returns a number
03:04 hmmmm if it returns nil, either there's something wrong with your mod or there's a major internal bug somewhere
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05:20 paramat one for the mtgame team game#520 sfan5
05:20 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/520 -- Default: New sandstone brick texture by paramat
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05:37 VanessaE paramat: it lacks ...contrast
05:37 VanessaE I think the old one was meant to show sort of a mortar between the bricks, but it lacks the "relief" yours shows
05:38 VanessaE so something kinda in the middle would be better
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05:39 paramat ah i see, apologies. i could make the shadowed pixels a little darker, depending on feedback
05:41 VanessaE honestly, I'd say more like, take the old one and make the mortar a tad brighter (not much), and make the top- and left-edge highlights as bright as with your submission
05:41 paramat mine has direct contact between bricks, because sandstone is quite light i kept the shadowed pixels fairly light
05:42 VanessaE otherwise it kinda has a "chiseled" look rather than looking like separate, mortared-together bricks
05:44 paramat i'll keep it in mind and see what other feedback there is :)
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11:17 Zeno` http://fpaste.org/224649/32300030/
11:17 Zeno` After all these years, while I don't really like this, I still remain the only
11:17 Zeno` person who 1) everyone in this community can trust, and 2) who is able do
11:17 Zeno` anything from graphics programming to web hosting.
11:17 Zeno` WOW
11:18 Zeno` I didn't realise you were the only trusted person celeron55 :(
11:19 celeron55 wut
11:20 celeron55 oh, well it's a draft and that is a comment to it 8)
11:20 Zeno` just quoting your post (from the logs). I didn't realise there weren't any other trustworthy contributors :P
11:21 celeron55 did you realize though that there is an AND between the points?
11:21 Zeno` it was TLDR
11:21 Zeno` heh :)
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11:22 Zeno` anyway FWIW I have compiled minetestserver without irrlicht
11:22 Zeno` modifications are still in a state of crap though (otherwise there would be a PR)
11:23 Zeno` the client is another story...
11:29 jin_xi well, some discussion about to what extent use which engine cant hurt
11:31 RealBadAngel hi guys, i just made minimap shader: http://i.imgur.com/8GVib38.jpg
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11:31 RealBadAngel how do you like it?
11:33 jin_xi nice, i like it but have yet to try
11:33 Amaz That's really awesome RBA!
11:33 celeron55 how does that differ from a non-shader minimap?
11:36 RealBadAngel a sec
11:39 RealBadAngel http://i.imgur.com/igsmXtj.jpg vs http://i.imgur.com/Ac3peXZ.jpg
11:41 celeron55 uhm, i don't think any of that difference is justifiable
11:42 celeron55 or are those shadow things realtime when the map rotates?
11:43 RealBadAngel yes
11:44 RealBadAngel shadows depends on yaw
12:12 Calinou will we get transparent water?
12:12 Calinou or at least darken it to compensate
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14:31 nolsen "Segmentation fault
14:31 nolsen " wut
14:31 nolsen possible bug?
14:33 sfan5 more info would be nice
14:34 nolsen sfan5: That's another problem, there is nothing else.
14:34 nolsen It just says segmentation fault.
14:34 sfan5 I suggest running it in gdb
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15:14 nolsen sfan5: Umm I think there's a problem with the latest commit.
15:14 nolsen Because it destroied my world.
15:15 nolsen I was upgrading to the latest commit because the version I had was exploitable with the nick exploit, so I copied all my worlds, mods, etc over to the new version.
15:15 nolsen and it destroied it!
15:16 nolsen My spawn is buried or destroied by the terrain.
15:19 nolsen https://meldy.hira.io/Zerobin/?3d9d267a41cd29e​a#mcI2m2F0DA9UXAyiXsX1PQqftSC+xu1/K2Zs4xZVIVs=
15:19 nolsen I tried changing out worlds since that world is a gonner, but now it throws an error.
15:26 est31 forum is really shit
15:26 est31 you cant even upload images
15:26 nolsen est31: what forum?
15:26 est31 forum.minetest.net
15:27 Calinou built-in images would take too much space
15:27 nolsen est31: try https://meldy.hira.io/anonboard :P
15:27 Calinou especially considering people like uploading PNGs
15:27 Calinou lut.im is fine, but some people think it'll go down someday
15:27 est31 thats precisely why built in images are bad
15:28 Calinou most forums don't allow direct uploading of images, too
15:28 Calinou you should be happy that we allow attachments
15:29 est31 I dont like it
15:31 VanessaE storage is cheap - it would be stupid to disallow image uploading.
15:31 VanessaE est31: upload as an attachment, right-click to get the URL of the image, paste that into your message surrounded by [img][/img] tags.
15:31 nolsen Or use https://meldy.hira.io/anonboard
15:32 nolsen They allow images
15:32 est31 github makes it dead simple: you drag & drop the image to the entry box, and it automatically uploads it
15:32 kilbith nolsen, how is that related with minetest ?
15:32 nolsen kilbith: how is this conversation related to minetest.
15:33 nolsen s/.?
15:33 nolsen s/./?
15:33 est31 s/??
15:33 est31 :p
15:34 kilbith est31 wants to host something related with MT, and you're pointing out a forum not related with MT
15:34 nolsen He could use any other forum for MT.
15:34 est31 my comment was targeted towards how to improve the forum
15:35 est31 the more parts a backup consists of, the better
15:37 Calinou <VanessaE> storage is cheap - it would be stupid to disallow image uploading.
15:37 Calinou on SSDs, it isn't, at all
15:37 Calinou est31, phpBB is a mess
15:38 VanessaE yeah but the forum doesn't run off SSDs does it?  besides, even my low-end server (under 40 euros/mo) has SSD + spinning rust
15:38 est31 yup
15:38 VanessaE (2 TB of spinning, I think)
15:38 Calinou sometimes you want SSD-only, eg. for optimal performance or less noise/power usage
15:38 Calinou my PC is SSD-only
15:38 nolsen How is SDD/HDD power usage any different?
15:38 est31 I have a 840 EVO only
15:38 Calinou SSD saves you a watt or two, which is valuable on a laptop
15:38 est31 very dangerous
15:39 VanessaE Calinou: mine is SSD + spinning, but what's that matter when talking about a server?
15:39 Calinou not much
15:39 Krock my PC is HDD-only
15:39 VanessaE Krock: get a current-generation SSD.  you will like it.
15:39 est31 Krock, get a current generation OS
15:39 est31 you will like it
15:39 VanessaE anyway point is, storage is cheap
15:40 Krock Krock: get a current generation PC
15:40 VanessaE forbidding image uploads makes no sense in the face of all the other kinds of files that can be uploaded -- which in turn usually contain some imagery
15:40 est31 best you install linux Krock
15:41 Krock I couldn't play Minetest better on Linux with this machine; it reached its limits :P
15:41 VanessaE I'd venture a guess that there's twice as many images currently on the forums, in the form of ZIPs of mods, than are directly visible.
15:42 VanessaE Krock: actually an SSD even helps minetest
15:42 VanessaE faster game start-up for one thing, and tangibly faster map loading as well
15:42 VanessaE and a modern OS handles SSDs better than an outdated one does
15:42 Krock VanessaE, yes, chaching is much faster on non-mechanic storage devices
15:42 VanessaE things like TRIM support, for example.
15:43 Krock *caching
15:43 VanessaE I wasn't thinking about caching, actually
15:45 VanessaE in any case, this is all offtopic for this channel :P
15:45 Krock at least, there's activity.
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15:50 est31 why is it OT?
15:50 est31 its discussion bout the forum
15:50 VanessaE because we're talking about disk tech and the forum, not cored ev.
15:50 VanessaE core dev*
15:51 est31 yes but about the forum as a platform
15:51 est31 anyway
15:51 est31 can sb give me the "developer" status on the forum?
15:54 VanessaE and can somebody else fix the G*d damned database so that editing of some first-posts isn't broken?
15:55 est31 ?
15:55 est31 works for me
15:55 VanessaE try editing this one:  https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=11&amp;t=7422
15:55 VanessaE just hit "edit" and then "preview" without making any changes.
15:55 est31 I cant, because I dont have the privs :)
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15:56 est31 and even if, I dont have any access to the db
15:56 VanessaE well for those who can edit at all, it'll respond with: http://pastebin.com/DdvdA8D5
15:56 est31 so I can't fix it sry
15:57 VanessaE that's why I said "somebody else" :)
15:57 * est31 smells a chown problem
15:57 est31 or chmod
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16:52 Mikeonline hi
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17:35 Mikeonline is the a server protocol version list out there?
17:35 est31 ?
17:39 est31 Mikeonline, what do you mean??
17:39 Mikeonline i built server from 12-dev and my stable 12 client cant connect
17:39 Mikeonline the dev version protocol is +1
17:39 Mikeonline but why and how can i check this?
17:41 est31 that should work in theory
17:42 Mikeonline i get protocol_version strict 25  vs 13..24
17:42 Mikeonline you clients version is not supported
17:42 Mikeonline using latest dev server git from today
17:42 Mikeonline and client stable 0.4.12
17:48 est31 yea you enabled strict version checking
17:48 est31 disable it and it works
17:57 Mikeonline yes i know, but disabling could be abused by cheating?
17:58 Mikeonline can i tell the server to allow all versions newer than .12 stable?
18:12 Krock nope.
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18:26 est31 Mikeonline, I don't get what you mean
18:33 est31 you can change SERVER_PROTOCOL_VERSION_MIN
18:33 est31 e.g. to 23
18:33 est31 or 24 even
18:34 est31 but even 0.4.11 had protocol version 24
18:34 est31 to achieve actual checking, you can use a special APi
18:34 est31 it has been added by developers with great reluctance
18:34 est31 because it can be abused
18:35 est31 at least their opinion
18:35 est31 the call is minetest.get_player_information
18:36 est31 so if you do a debug build, you get these additional values:
18:36 est31 major
18:36 est31 minor and patch
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18:38 Mikeonline i changed min to 24
18:38 Mikeonline and disabled strict
18:38 est31 yea, still 0.4.11 still is allowed
18:39 est31 if you want to disallow 0.4.11, you have to use that API call and kick the players when they try to join
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19:43 est31 pushing #2708
19:43 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2708 -- Android: remove broken alignment from Makefile by est31
19:44 est31 except if your "I think the current version is ok too" was a formal "-1" hmmmm
19:44 hmmmm no
19:44 hmmmm why does nerzhul still comment on PRs.... he's not involved at all
19:45 hmmmm est31:  here's my take on it
19:45 hmmmm yes, it may be true that it shows up as misaligned when tabs aren't set to 4, BUT on the other hand...
19:45 hmmmm if you make them all one space, it goes from sort of ugly under certain circumstances to VERY ugly
19:45 hmmmm under ALL circumstances
19:45 hmmmm I don't know about you but having a \ after all lines not lined up hampers readability for me
19:46 est31 its basically like the ;
19:46 hmmmm i know
19:46 hmmmm that's what I told myself too for the period of time when I made everything a single space after the line
19:46 hmmmm but it's just way uglier
19:47 hmmmm for some reason \ stands out in code more than ;
19:49 hmmmm I just did it to some of the test.h macros and I think the reason why it's uglier than trailing colons is because 1). it's an explicit space, and 2). it's not a usual syntactic element of code
19:49 hmmmm so it throws you off
19:50 hmmmm macros are all one color for most syntax highlighting editors so there's no way to make them not stand out as much
19:50 hmmmm I think that if you want to write new macros, and you like the one-space \ better, go ahead and do that
19:50 hmmmm but don't go around changing big hunks of pre existing code that you're not even modifying
19:51 est31 I have edited parts of that file
19:52 est31 but there I did align using the old method
19:52 hmmmm I wouldn't appreciate calling it broken either
19:52 est31 because having different styles is even uglier
19:52 hmmmm it's a pure style matter
19:52 est31 alignment that doesn't align is broken
19:52 hmmmm the alignment doesn't align for some people with some specific tab settings
19:52 est31 its like a car that doesnt drive, or a computer that doesnt calculate the right result
19:53 est31 that file shouldn't use tabs then for indentation
19:53 hmmmm god dammit
19:53 hmmmm this comes down to a tabs vs spaces argument
19:53 hmmmm i knew it
19:53 est31 no
19:53 est31 I don't say that spaces are better
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19:54 est31 tabs give people choice
19:54 hmmmm but they present this problem at the same time
19:54 est31 but if you destroy alignment when you do chose, you take that choice away
19:54 hmmmm but changing this file to spaces is totally inconsistent
19:54 est31 yes
19:55 hmmmm when you edit a minetest file, you don't expect to have to change editor indentation settings
19:55 hmmmm there are some files already like this in fact
19:55 est31 which ones?
19:55 hmmmm in the scriptapi common headers
19:55 hmmmm and you know what
19:55 hmmmm it's just a pain in the ass because they're indented using spaces
19:55 hmmmm and to stay consistent I need to do tricks with my editor
19:56 hmmmm and if I forget to do that it'll auto convert to tabs
19:56 est31 that is c code?
19:56 hmmmm so, we've already tried it where the entire file is space-indented
19:56 hmmmm and it sucks
19:56 hmmmm yeah, it's c code
19:56 hmmmm i realize there is a difference between source files and build files
19:57 est31 which file again?
19:57 hmmmm c_converter.h? a
19:57 hmmmm and others
19:58 est31 c_converter.h does alignment though
19:58 hmmmm with spaces
19:58 est31 yes
19:58 hmmmm it looks pretty and all but it's simply a pain in the ass to maintain
19:58 hmmmm i've dealt with it though
19:59 hmmmm i didn't bother changing it because i have way better things to do
19:59 est31 yea I know how it feels
19:59 est31 libgmp had it too
19:59 est31 till I came :)
19:59 hmmmm libgmp is different though
19:59 hmmmm libgmp is a third party library, we don't touch third party things mostly
19:59 est31 now its not aligned
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20:00 est31 yes, only about how easy it is to maintain or modify
20:00 hmmmm we don't need to maintain or modify third party code though
20:00 hmmmm i'd say just leave it alone
20:00 hmmmm you need to have a really good reason if you want to modify third party code.
20:00 hmmmm if it generates a warning or something, try disabling the warning for that library
20:00 est31 I'm the third party
20:00 hmmmm libgmp??
20:00 est31 err
20:01 est31 sorry
20:01 est31 csrp
20:01 est31 dammit
20:01 hmmmm csrp is different though because you've tried to integrate it with minetest
20:01 hmmmm since it's actually your own library i'd suggest making it separate
20:01 est31 I've changed the code style because I liked it more
20:01 est31 and because I could
20:01 hmmmm and that's fine
20:01 hmmmm you can change the code style for csrp to whatever you want
20:02 est31 yes
20:02 hmmmm it doesn't need to conform to minetest's code style
20:02 hmmmm but it needs to be treated as a third party library
20:02 est31 yes
20:02 hmmmm i.e. not in util
20:02 hmmmm in fact all that should be in a third_party/ or contrib/ or whatever directory
20:02 est31 like the bundled lua too?
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20:02 hmmmm yes
20:03 hmmmm anything bundled
20:03 hmmmm keep it organized
20:03 est31 or just bundled/
20:03 hmmmm w/e
20:03 hmmmm anyway this has nothing to do with what we were originally talking about
20:03 est31 ... yes
20:03 hmmmm so this is my opinion that you shouldn't change it vs. your opinion that we should because you say it's broken
20:04 hmmmm nobody's opinion overrides eachother
20:04 hmmmm so we should have a vote for this kind of matter
20:04 est31 sounds good
20:04 hmmmm how long do you want to leave it running for
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20:05 est31 1 week?
20:05 est31 I'd suggest to make it inside the forums
20:05 hmmmm alright then
20:05 hmmmm was going to use strawpoll again
20:05 Hijiri are we using libgmp to get integers in lua
20:06 est31 no
20:06 est31 libgmp is only for srp
20:06 Hijiri oh
20:06 Hijiri what is srp
20:06 Calinou how about lib/ for bundled libs?
20:06 est31 the new way you log in to minetest servers
20:06 Hijiri put keys as integers?
20:06 est31 yes
20:07 est31 thats what encryption does
20:07 hmmmm yeah, lib/ sounds best imho
20:07 hmmmm it's the most standard sounding
20:07 Calinou even Web projects use lib/ :P
20:07 est31 yea
20:08 est31 csrp won't be abled to use the shipped hash algorithm though
20:09 est31 btw what about sha1.coo
20:09 est31 cpp*
20:09 hmmmm should be sent to lib/ too imho
20:20 hmmmm est31:  fwiw, https://www.kernel.org/doc​/Documentation/CodingStyle
20:21 hmmmm linux code style says to line them up
20:21 est31 hmmmm, what to crtl+f for?
20:22 hmmmm Chapter 12: Macros, Enums, and RTL
20:23 est31 yea they line up using tab stops
20:23 hmmmm ohh that's not good
20:24 est31 so the kernel style neither supports me nor you :)
20:24 hmmmm yeah we can digress a bit here
20:24 hmmmm the kernel style dictates a tab space of 8
20:24 hmmmm that's ridiculous and goes against the whole point of tabs
20:25 est31 it dictates a tab stop spacing of 8 spaces
20:26 est31 The only really config independent way to use tab stops is the elastic tabstops approach
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20:46 hmmmm est31: what is the summary of your argument for changing to a single-space line continuatator?
20:47 est31 right now, they dictate tab configuration in order to be aligned. tab configuration should be free
20:48 hmmmm erm, in other words, should i change any of the wording here: https://forum.minetest.net/v​iewtopic.php?f=3&amp;t=12247
20:50 est31 the vote closes in 7 days
20:50 est31 you should point that out
20:50 hmmmm doesn't it say that?  "Poll runs till Sat May 30, 2015 4:45 pm"
20:51 est31 ah
20:51 est31 even coded to my time zone, nice
20:52 hmmmm depending on the outcome, it'd probably be a good idea to change the macros everywhere
20:52 hmmmm right now it's a mix between the two styles
20:53 est31 yes
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23:22 hmmmm hey paramat what's up
23:23 paramat hi
23:23 hmmmm I think I came up with a space-efficient way to map a discrete, uncompressable y-position to a range compressable terrain variance value
23:23 hmmmm I've been going about it all wrong
23:24 hmmmm instead of mapping the Y-range to a range of possible terrain variance values, the opposite should happen
23:24 paramat good grief that's quite a description
23:24 hmmmm compress the terrain variance into 64 or 128 slots, and then have each slot map to a list of biomes containing that
23:25 hmmmm errm
23:25 paramat this detects the roughness of terrain?
23:25 hmmmm each variance slot map to a list of biomes, which are then range-compared
23:25 hmmmm well, that's what terrain variance does
23:25 hmmmm what this does is maps terrain roughness together with y-value
23:25 hmmmm errm, y-position i mean
23:26 hmmmm so this, combined with mapgen hints, I believe is the winner
23:26 paramat i remember you had trouble with variance before, for terrain biome use
23:26 hmmmm http://fpaste.org/225051/14324236/
23:27 paramat this is good to read =)
23:27 hmmmm so yeah
23:27 hmmmm it's going to have 3 variables in total
23:27 hmmmm the mapgen hint overrides all else
23:27 hmmmm terrain biomes can be either elevation-only, or elevation and terrain variance based
23:27 hmmmm elevation-only are for example ocean
23:27 hmmmm who cares about how rough the ocean bed is, it's still ocean
23:27 hmmmm and then cross a certain point of depth, ocean will become deep ocean or whatever
23:28 hmmmm so then for another example, we have a cliff
23:28 hmmmm there's an extremely high variance value at that point, paired with a high y coordinate
23:28 hmmmm and then the other side of the cliff is either a rocky shore or just something else depending on y value
23:29 hmmmm obviously I didn't get all the biomes possible
23:29 paramat nice you could have plateau biomes
23:32 paramat i look forward to possibly seeing a working example mapgen
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