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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-05-24

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
00:01 paramat i think i will push these new heat, humidity and mgv7 noise params later. feel free to stop me if this will cause conflicts for you
00:06 hmmmm no go ahead
00:07 hmmmm you must realize that's only a stopgap measure, you can't possibly expect people to adjust noise each time they add a biome
00:11 paramat agreed
00:13 paramat in future perhaps sqrt(number of biomes) will scale spreads as we discussed..
00:29 hmmmm now, why sqrt() exactly?
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00:43 paramat i assume a terrain area of spread by spread where heat and humidity vary across their ranges along the axes, so all biomes are present. keeping biome size constant, spreads are proportional to sqrt(number of biomes)
00:44 paramat hard to describe, but intuitively makes sense to me
00:46 paramat comes from visualizing heat/humidity voronoi diagrams
00:46 hmmmm yeah
00:47 hmmmm I'm going to make a command line option to spit out the voronoi diagrams in image format
00:47 hmmmm given a set of biomes
00:47 paramat nice
00:47 hmmmm but this would depend on the client
00:47 hmmmm because i need irrlicht as a dependency
00:48 paramat with the sqrt(biomes) thing we will need a settable parameter to scale biome size
00:48 paramat a rough biome width
00:50 paramat spread = biomewidth * sqrt(nobiomes)
00:51 paramat both spreads equal
00:52 paramat but because noise biome size will turn out smaller, so param is rough 'max biome size'
00:53 hmmmm this might be easier said than done
00:53 hmmmm increasing the spread decreases the detail so we also need to increase the number of octaves
00:53 hmmmm we can't indefinitely increase the number of octaves, in fact that's quite limited
00:54 hmmmm even 15 octaves would probably exceed the memory limitations on most machines
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01:03 paramat ah octaves, with sqrt() spread will only grow slowly, then octaves coould be increased even slower than that
01:04 paramat (could)
01:05 paramat so limited to range 3 to 6 of whatever
01:09 paramat only need 3 more octaves to keep the same detail when going from 4 to 256 biomes, no problem
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01:10 paramat will test and push this later #2718
01:10 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2718 -- Biome API, mgv7: Increase heat/humidity spreads. Improve mgv7 noise parameters by paramat
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03:14 paramat pushing #2718 very soon
03:14 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2718 -- Biome API, mgv7: Increase heat/humidity spreads. Improve mgv7 noise parameters by paramat
03:31 paramat now pushing
03:36 paramat complete
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05:02 est31 hey Zeno` !
05:07 Zeno` hey
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05:33 hmmmm hey zeno`, what's been up lately?
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06:34 Zeno` not much. Had the flu so I've been in bed a lot :/
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14:36 est31 pushing in 5 mins https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/​6b7fb591cb8d54bc8a43df6adb34a026720b4fe4
14:37 rubenwardy Did you make the ASCII art originally by hand? O_o
14:37 est31 I didnt make it
14:38 est31 only added large parts of it
14:38 est31 but yes I edited them by hand :)
14:38 rubenwardy Ah XD.
14:38 est31 two things are useful though when doing that: 1. kate's block mode, 2. that key over DEL
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14:48 Krock write it on the worldoftext site and then select - copypaste :P
14:49 celeron55 i think there are missing arrow heads in the graph
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17:21 est31 celeron55, I haven't added arrowheads to arrows of length 1, because there the arrow would only consists of its head. Except I used ↓ which is unicode
17:21 est31 and unicode in c files...
17:23 est31 (that has been previously there too)
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17:34 Calinou I've used Unicode in Carbone comments :P
17:35 Calinou why is that a problem? any properly set up editor uses UTF-8
17:36 init unicode and utf8 are different things
17:36 est31 One of the features java bragged about was unicode support even inside source files
17:36 est31 I havent run into issues with unicode inside c files yet
17:36 est31 but still I'm cautious
17:37 est31 you know in two weeks people are showing up "hey this comment only commit from may 24 broke my compiler on openVMS!"
17:37 est31 build*
17:38 est31 as a fun fact, once I've used umlauts inside a project name in java, because, I've thought, everything will work well
17:38 est31 so what happened
17:38 est31 total chaos
17:38 est31 it worked some times
17:39 est31 but there were various bugs
17:39 est31 so I regretted it not using ae or oe instead of ä and ö
17:39 est31 there you have the unicodeness of java :)
17:40 Calinou “Now supports äaö!” Minecraft splash :P
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20:30 paramat i will go ahead and make mgv6 snowbiomes default soon
20:31 VanessaE guess that means snowdrift mod will need some changes? ;)
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20:44 paramat yes it will need an option
20:48 VanessaE one question though is how do these new snow biomes mesh with SPlizard's snow mod?
20:48 VanessaE (and plants_lib, which uses the same temperature map)
20:49 paramat nore sfan5 perhaps sometime you could add comments to game#520
20:49 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/520 -- Default: New sandstone brick texture by paramat
20:50 paramat they don't match at all, sorry, an option will be needed
20:51 VanessaE you should match them by default then
20:51 paramat because the snow mod's locating of snow biomes makes no sense, and mine does =)
20:51 paramat .. biome noise should be taken as temp
20:51 VanessaE that's gonna break maps that use either of the above mods
20:52 VanessaE even if you added a way for a mod to detect if engine-supported snow biomes exist, no mod will ever be able to accurately guess where a snow biome is
20:52 paramat don't think so because old worlds will not have snowbiomes enabled by flags in map-meta.txt
20:53 VanessaE because there will be some parts of the map that are using the older method e.g. snow, plants_lib mods, and some parts using the newer method
20:53 VanessaE that will help
20:54 paramat so essentially only new worlds will get snowbiomes
20:54 VanessaE and if a server owner wants to switch to the newer method?
20:55 paramat they could add the flag into map-meta, and get a few straight-edged biomes between old and new
20:55 VanessaE right, I'd expect that
20:55 VanessaE but the point is it conflicts with how the older mods do it
20:55 VanessaE which means you'll have desert-temperatures in a snow biome
20:55 VanessaE etc.
20:56 paramat yeah mods will need an option added for the new biome system
20:56 VanessaE isn't there some way to identify that a particular mapblock is being generated with the new method?
20:57 paramat erm flags may be checkable..
20:57 VanessaE I mean something passed along to on_generated
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20:58 paramat the issue is here, comments welcome game#519
20:58 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/519 -- Should mgv6 snowbiomes be enabled by default?
20:58 paramat erm possibly
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20:59 paramat 'get mapgen params' at the start of on-gen?
20:59 paramat not too sure
21:00 VanessaE that might work as long as it's painfully obvious :P that a returned flag basically means "new snow biomes in effect here" or so
21:01 VanessaE and indeed, snowdrift will be a problem
21:01 VanessaE because it can't just check those flags
21:02 VanessaE (assuming the user changes the flags to turn the new biomes on)
21:03 paramat if a server is switched over, all new chunks will have the new biome system, so mods could just be changed to act in the new way from that moment on
21:03 VanessaE but what about old chunks where there's active stuff going on?
21:04 paramat aha
21:04 VanessaE as in snowdrift mod adding snow to existing chunks
21:04 paramat indeed no solution to that
21:04 VanessaE yeah.
21:04 VanessaE the only thing one could do is remove the mod entirely :(
21:05 VanessaE unless, as I said, you can add a flag to the generated chunks
21:05 paramat normally i wouldn't expect any server or world to be switched because of the many straight-edged biomes caused
21:05 VanessaE i.e. something like minetest.get_chunk_flags(mapblock_pos)
21:05 paramat so any switch would cause a mess anyway..
21:05 VanessaE hah!  there have already been screwups like that in the past
21:06 sfan5 paramat: added a comment to game 520
21:06 VanessaE my creative map is the victim of this
21:06 paramat thanks
21:07 VanessaE added my comment as well, just for the record.
21:08 VanessaE paramat: in any case, what I'm really getting at is, adding official snow biomes to the engine like this is a good thing, don't get me wrong
21:08 VanessaE but you want to provide an upgrade path for users who have been using mods to achieve this effect.
21:08 VanessaE (since mods == slow)
21:13 paramat i'll post info in the forum to help modders add an option for the new system
21:14 VanessaE that isn't an "upgrade path" :)
21:14 paramat the headache for modders is unavoidable either way though, as most i expect will turn snowbiomes on even if it isn't default
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21:14 paramat hehe
21:14 VanessaE I don't have anything against turning them on by default
21:14 VanessaE since that's only for new maps anyway
21:15 VanessaE nor do I have a problem with adapting e.g. plants_lib to account for it
21:15 VanessaE it's upgrading an old map that poses the quandry.
21:15 paramat yes
21:17 paramat but then it's not advisable to switch an old world over due to the discontinuous biomes, it doesn't justify a complex upgrade path, i wouldn't want to work on that
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21:19 paramat modders will just have to do the work themselves if they are crazy and switch =)
21:21 VanessaE on a slightly-related note:  there's one thing I've been wanting to do for several months now...  reset the maps on a couple of my servers, but keeping the user-built content i.e. laying it all down onto newly-generated terrain, where the terrain matches the seed that the map was supposed to have, to get rid of discontinuous areas where interpretation of mapgen params has changed or gone awry
21:21 VanessaE (my creative map has such things)
21:22 paramat oh man..
21:22 paramat difficult
21:23 VanessaE that's a hard subject for sure. :)
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21:58 celeron55 hmm i wonder if a screenshot taken from minetest+minetest_game requires the attribution+sharealike stuff to be followed
21:59 celeron55 actually i wonder because someone basically asked about that
21:59 VanessaE celeron55: it's generally been held that copyright doesn't apply if the screenshot is low-resolution enough
21:59 celeron55 the screenshot is high-resolution
21:59 VanessaE falls under "fair use" or "fair dealing" or whatever you wanna call it
21:59 celeron55 this same email appears to have been sent to many core developers
22:00 celeron55 they want to use it as a silly background on the cover of a scientific publication
22:01 VanessaE wat
22:01 celeron55 it's ridiculous in all the right ways
22:02 VanessaE off the top of my head, I would say that CC-by-SA applies here
22:05 celeron55 i wonder what that means in practice
22:05 VanessaE an attribute line under the image or in the acknowledgement section maybe
22:05 VanessaE I don't see any reason to need more than that, anyway
22:05 celeron55 what would the acknowledgement line contain
22:06 celeron55 it's not exactly simple as there are many authors 8)
22:06 VanessaE "Screenshot of Minetest engine and minetest_game, CC-by-SA, copyright various, see Minetest source code and LICENSE file." maybe?
22:07 celeron55 "Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-SA 3.0) Copyright (C) 2010-2015 Minetest contributors"?
22:07 VanessaE that would work too
22:07 celeron55 i guess that's kind of the shortest you can go
22:07 VanessaE but, I'm no lawyer, so...
22:07 * VanessaE hands celeron55 a large grain of salt
22:07 celeron55 well me neither, and i will mention it in my reply
22:08 celeron55 (Do not take this as actual legal advice though; I am not qualified in that and if I was, these few lines would be way more expensive.)
22:08 celeron55 ^ ...in my own style 8)
22:08 VanessaE I like the way slashdot et al. put it with their polls:  "if you're using these numbers for anything serious, you're insane."
22:08 VanessaE (or something to that effect)
22:16 celeron55 http://fpaste.org/225186/05773143/
22:16 celeron55 i think i'll reply with this
22:18 VanessaE "and if I was, these few lines would be way more expensive."  heh
22:18 sfan5 using a minetest screenshot as a cover for a science publication
22:18 sfan5 i don't even
22:18 VanessaE sfan5: ikr
22:19 VanessaE celeron55: lgtm
22:20 sfan5 celeron55: s/on the acknowledgement section/in the acknowledgement section/ ?
22:21 celeron55 hmm i wonder if this actually means they'll have to be able to license everything under CC BY-SA that they put over the screenshot including fonts? well i guess or at least hope not, that would be impossible
22:21 sfan5 well
22:21 sfan5 putting text on something is not really a devirative work
22:21 sfan5 you could have the text somewhere without the original work
22:22 VanessaE right, and besides which, it's not being released as its own file anyway
22:22 sfan5 we might be worrying about this too much :P
22:22 celeron55 whatever i'm not wasting more time on this, it's now sent
22:22 celeron55 it's not like they're running into any actual problems anyway
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23:29 VanessaE YvesLevier reports the following crash: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11337875
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