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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-05-22

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Time Nick Message
00:22 paramat i wrongly thought that existing worlds would be affected, not so it seems
00:40 hmmmm it doesn't break existing worlds because existing worlds read mgflags
00:41 hmmmm when I said that enabling them by default would break existing worlds, you modified the default internal mgflags value that is modified by map_meta.txt.  that would break existing worlds.
00:43 paramat yep
00:58 paramat found it, that was when i moved dungeons and jungles flags from game to engine. if snowbiomes are made default it would be done using mgv6_spflags in .conf
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01:54 hmmmm hey paramat, are you around?
01:54 hmmmm how finished is your improved generateBiomes?
01:54 hmmmm I want to generalize it somehow in order to improve testability
01:55 hmmmm how do you improve testability on something that works on a voxelmanipulator
01:56 hmmmm I'm thinking maybe it should be a 1xNx1 VoxelManipulator, so that em.X == 1
01:56 hmmmm so we'll unit test biome generation, arguably one of the most fragile parts of the entire system
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02:22 paramat hi
02:22 paramat i have to go eat in a few minutes. my work so far is here https://github.com/paramat/minetest/tree/genbiome
02:23 paramat needs more testing but seems to work, then i have to do the same for mgv5
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02:23 paramat so half finished
02:24 paramat also i need to make sure biomes get generated down to y = -192 to cope with mgv5 deep oceans
02:25 paramat after i eat i could finish the job, a few more hours perhaps
02:25 hmmmm it'd be good to write a unit test for that :-)
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02:27 hmmmm anyway here's my idea for next-gen biomes:  you remember how I wanted biomes to be the combination of terrain biomes and climate biomes, right?  well terrain biomes, instead of being decided by some mathy algorithms, why doesn't the mapgen place hints
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02:28 hmmmm so if the form of land is supposed to be an ocean, as determined by the biome, it can just set that to ocean
02:28 paramat i remember
02:28 hmmmm this 16x16 biome hint mapping would be per-MapSector
02:28 hmmmm and it'd have to be stored directly in the map
02:28 hmmmm but the benefits would be fantastic
02:28 paramat map sector is a vertical stack of mapblocks?
02:29 hmmmm yes
02:29 paramat nice idea
02:29 hmmmm it's the parent container for MapBlocks in Map
02:29 hmmmm but there's the ridge problem here
02:30 hmmmm cocindentally i found out that this is actually how minecraft currently does biomes.  they're saved as an attribute in the map file
02:30 hmmmm but it got me wondering, does minecraft have any overlapping terrain?  how does it account for this?
02:30 hmmmm if we have a mountain overlooking a river, is that vertical node column of intersection a river, or a mountain?
02:31 paramat ah..
02:31 paramat from watching MC videos it has overhangs of course but terrain type seems to be consistent vertically
02:32 paramat i think..
02:33 hmmmm yeah, the only knowledge i have of MC is from watching videos of it
02:34 est31 great I'm not the only one who doesnt know mc
02:35 paramat i tend get the impression of near-equal size biomes, each with a terrain type, im not keen on the result. seems there is no overall xlarge structure or 'big idea'
02:35 paramat not saying your idea is bad
02:35 hmmmm that's different
02:36 paramat yeah good
02:36 hmmmm the biome shape in minecraft is due to the uniformity of the prng
02:36 hmmmm what i'm talking about is a way to "know" what kind of terrain it is at that spot
02:37 paramat yes so before you were knowing through height and variance?
02:37 hmmmm "knowing" is used loosely there
02:37 hmmmm it was a wildly inaccurate guess at best
02:38 hmmmm my variance algorithm works much better as an edge detector than it does detecting if terrain is mountaneous or not
02:40 paramat the 'hints' would be derived from the large scale terrain generation, from the terrain noises?
02:40 hmmmm they'd be explicitly set by the mapgen
02:40 hmmmm so i would have this "terrain hint map" as a standard part of the mapgen interface
02:41 paramat that would enable players to edit and choose what terrain goes where?
02:41 hmmmm if they edit the map file, I guess
02:42 hmmmm they'd get to edit and choose which terrain type that vertical column is considered, to be more accurate
02:42 hmmmm but it's just as editable as mapblocks are inside of the block database now
02:43 paramat ok but normally the hint map is created by noises?
02:43 hmmmm i guess so.
02:43 hmmmm for example the river placement
02:43 hmmmm so you'd have the previously existing hintmap for that column passed along to you in makeBlock()
02:44 hmmmm you pass it along to generateTerrain(), that gets set to normal terrain, plains, etc. based on attributes such as varied persistence maps
02:44 hmmmm then you pass it along to generateMountains(), which would set whatever column to the 'mountain' terrain type wherever it decides to set a mountaineous node
02:45 hmmmm passed along to generateRiver, it'd set whichever nodes were carved out for a river
02:46 paramat interesting.. i go eat now, will work on my branch later
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03:35 hmmmm hmm
03:35 hmmmm i like the *shapes* of biomes in minecraft better in general, but i agree with paramat they sizes are too consistent to be interesting
03:36 hmmmm they use a regular uniform PRNG to plot points on the map, zooming out in a fractal manner
03:37 hmmmm so the likely cause of the consistent sizes and shapes is the fact that the PRNG is uniform.  meaning it could be 'solved' by breaking it somehow
03:37 hmmmm one thing that comes to mind is weighting certain random output values much higher in the RNG, but how to decide which to bias, and by how much?  hrmm
03:37 hmmmm randomize the bias for the randomizer
03:38 hmmmm the specifics of the RNG bias should probably be sourced from the map seed
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05:00 paramat hmmmm tested and ready for review #2713
05:00 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2713 -- Mgv5/v7: Fix generateBiomes biome recalculation logic, improve code by paramat
05:00 paramat waiting for checks
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05:04 paramat the functions are identical for v5 and v7, ready for combining into biomemanager. now desert stone and sandstone reach down to -192, which is nice :)
05:05 paramat all those unnecessary recalculations of biome are gone, so mapgen is faster
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05:08 hmmmm now, why -192?
05:08 paramat to cope with the very deep oceans of mgv5
05:09 hmmmm the problem is that you're coding for the parameters of that mapgen
05:09 paramat i calculated the deepest possible ocean
05:09 hmmmm with that specific set of default parameters
05:09 paramat yes, and mgv7 doesnt need to go so deep
05:09 hmmmm this has to be somewhat universal
05:10 hmmmm 1024, -192, all of them are arbitrary constants and prone to breaking if the parameters get changed
05:10 paramat yes i decided -192 was deep enough for most mapgens
05:10 paramat 1024 is my 'big number' gauranteed bigger than 'base filler'
05:10 hmmmm how are we guaranteed that
05:11 paramat hehe
05:11 paramat i was going to use (u32)-1 but nplaced needs to be a s16 to compare with depth_top etc
05:12 hmmmm depth_top and so on should be unsigned too
05:12 paramat any filler dept larger than one chunk will fail anyway
05:12 hmmmm positions of things are s16
05:12 hmmmm number of items or sizes are unsigned numbers
05:12 hmmmm one chunk is variable too
05:12 paramat ah okay i could try u16 then.. will do, then big number (u16)-1
05:13 hmmmm it could be as large as the entire map
05:13 paramat lol
05:13 hmmmm i'm serious
05:13 hmmmm set chunksize to 4096 and see what happens
05:13 paramat i'm amused
05:14 paramat you're also correct, updating PR
05:14 hmmmm well instead of fixing one small detail, maybe we should be working on the getting signed-ness correct everywhere
05:14 hmmmm also, comments
05:15 hmmmm the reason why this code is so hard to get right is because it contains logic that's literally more difficult to follow than anywhere else in the code for minetest
05:16 paramat more comments okay
05:16 hmmmm like the way I wrote comments in my version
05:16 paramat yes
05:17 hmmmm so anyway
05:17 paramat i rushed this a bit, it's late (early) here (time for MC videos/anime) so i need another day or so
05:18 hmmmm instead of checking for stone, water, and air, maybe we should think about checking the nodes' solidness
05:18 hmmmm ndef->get(n).solidness ?  i think
05:18 hmmmm maybe that's a bit too much, not sure
05:22 paramat ah.. i tried u16 for deth_water_top but it generates warnings for comparison of signed and unsigned ints
05:23 paramat (depth water)
05:23 hmmmm that's because there's a distinction here
05:24 paramat it's compared with y
05:24 paramat depth top and base filler can be u16
05:24 paramat so nplaced can be too
05:24 hmmmm water_level is signed, depth_water_top is unsigned
05:25 hmmmm in this case, since water_level is an int, depth_water_top should be promoted to a signed int as well
05:25 hmmmm see, this is undefined behavior.
05:25 hmmmm int could be 16 bit or 32 bit, or even larger depending on platform
05:25 hmmmm if it's 16 bit, then it becomes equivalent to s16
05:26 hmmmm and then the s16 would be promoted to a u16
05:26 hmmmm thus changing the behavior entirely
05:26 hmmmm i used int a lot in my older code, and that's not a good thing
05:27 paramat water level should be s16 i think
05:28 hmmmm well, it's guaranteed to have the capacity of s16 as it is
05:28 hmmmm the only change here is the semantics on what the signedness is of the resulting expression "water_level - depth_water_top"
05:29 hmmmm maybe it would be a good idea to use a cast here
05:31 paramat better to make water level an s16? a change in one place
05:31 hmmmm better to change the expression to
05:31 hmmmm y > (s16)(water_level - depth_water_top)
05:33 paramat okay
05:34 hmmmm no wait
05:34 hmmmm change it to s32
05:35 hmmmm the risk of integer underflow in that circumstance is actually quite probable
05:35 paramat okay
05:39 paramat so i'm trying u16 for depth_top, base_filler, depth_water_top and nplaced. big number becomes (u16)-1
05:39 hmmmm that's actually USHORT_MAX, but we can't use that macro thanks to visual studio 2008 and lower
05:40 paramat depending on nose_filler_depth, base_filler could become negative ..?
05:40 paramat heh
05:40 paramat (noise filler depth)
05:40 hmmmm base_filler is signed righT?
05:41 hmmmm so it shouldn't matter
05:41 paramat oh i thought you said it should be u16
05:42 paramat 'sizes are unsigned'
05:42 hmmmm ah, base_filler is unsigned
05:43 paramat well in my update it will be
05:43 hmmmm in that case, you should take MYMAX(noise_filler_depth->result[index], 0)
05:43 paramat okay
05:45 paramat oh actually no noise_filler_depth is meant to go negative, it averages to depth_filler
05:45 paramat i'll just make sure base_filler doesnt go negative
05:46 hmmmm ahh right
05:46 hmmmm yeah good catch there
05:46 hmmmm noise_filler_depth is how much the base filler is modulated by
05:47 hmmmm it's noise with a very subtle impact, i like it though
05:48 paramat yes mostly +-1, rarely +-2
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05:50 paramat BTW offtopic, is it okay to use fminf for floats?
05:50 hmmmm why??
05:50 hmmmm i'd say it's better to just stick with the macro
05:51 paramat i'm using that in a new core mapgen
05:51 paramat so MYMIN MYMAX does all number types okay
05:51 hmmmm not only is MYMIN() faster, it's consistent with all the rest of the code
05:52 paramat ah excellent, i was wondering if it was for ints only
05:57 paramat biome gen down to -192 is perfect because the highest lava caves start at -256, and lava is stone lava. but do you want me to move this -192 constant to a #define in the header file?
06:00 hmmmm sure
06:01 paramat okay. i'll finish this tomorrow, thanks for the advice..
06:03 hmmmm no problem
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06:59 OldCoder hmmmm, engine question if it is all right. Is there any particular reason a setpos call to a specific location would work sometimes and fail other times?
06:59 * OldCoder assumes that setpos is a low-level API call
06:59 hmmmm don't know
06:59 OldCoder All right
07:00 hmmmm you can file an issue on the github issue tracker
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07:36 OldCoder hmmmm, answer: One must do a minetest.after before setpos if this is register on join
07:36 OldCoder So, not a core issue
07:36 OldCoder Well, there ought to be a more elegant solution
07:36 OldCoder I.e. mods that do setpos too soon after join will fail
07:45 hmmmm perhaps the player does not exist on the map at that point in execution
07:46 OldCoder Could be
07:46 OldCoder I note similar code already in some mods
07:47 OldCoder I would have thought he did exist though for register on join
07:47 OldCoder At any rate I now have the first ever stable version of Hungry Games
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08:27 rubenwardy xyz is no longer willing to host mmdb - it takes too long to fix problems and migrate it - does anyone else have servers that they are willing to host it on? I reckon it could use simplification as well, it's overly complicated ATM.
08:28 Calinou me? I don't guarantee 100% uptime though
08:28 Calinou I have a VPS, 4 vcore, 4 GB RAM, 200 GB storage, 100 Mb/s effective bandwidth. Runs Debian 8 64-bit
08:30 rubenwardy Awesome. It'll need rewriting / modification to remove dependencies on the forum.
08:30 Calinou I'm not a PHP guru :)
08:30 Calinou personally I'd start the MMDB over
08:30 Calinou ie. remove all existing stuff as it's out of date
08:30 rubenwardy MMDB is in Python
08:30 rubenwardy DFjango
08:31 rubenwardy Lol, that typos about right - Da-fuck-jango
08:32 Calinou not a Python guru either, just a beginner :p
08:32 rubenwardy Yeah :)
08:32 Calinou anyway I could host it
08:33 Calinou but my host has occasional lag/downtime issues, which make uptime about 99,5% or so
08:33 Calinou which is not that great
08:33 celeron55 hosting isn't a problem; the problem is detaching it from the forum's user accounts
08:33 rubenwardy It would be harder to authenticate users - ie: I could sign up for an account for Calinou before he made one. But that's no so bad
08:34 celeron55 i can host anything that works on openbsd but can't promise super speedy updates or complex migrations
08:35 rubenwardy It already has a login form that works without phpbb, just not a register form
08:35 troller joined #minetest-dev
08:35 celeron55 ....aaand actually i'm running slightly out of disk space so i'd need to sort that out first
08:36 celeron55 (mmdb contains around 600MB of data currently)
08:37 rubenwardy There is a lot more potential with it, which it is missing out
08:37 celeron55 by the way, our first problem is that mmdb isn't located at its own subdomain but under the forum subdomain
08:38 rubenwardy In terms of redirects?
08:38 celeron55 i wonder if minetest's mod store stuff will follow redirects properly
08:38 rubenwardy We might just have to break support if there's no other way
08:38 OldCoder Hi
08:39 OldCoder Actually, the three resources are a subject I'd been hoping to bring up this summer
08:39 OldCoder Backup copies of the forum, the mod database, and the wiki
08:39 OldCoder Is the discussion above related to the mod database?
08:39 rubenwardy yes
08:40 OldCoder This project could someday be comparable not to Mozilla but to one of the other serious ventures
08:40 OldCoder I feel it cannot continue in the current manner as far as these resources go
08:40 OldCoder No single person or even two people can possess the only copies
08:40 OldCoder But this part
08:40 OldCoder of the discussion can wait; putting it out there
08:40 est31 what does this have to do with mozilla
08:40 OldCoder Let me read up briefly
08:40 Megaf_ 09:27 <rubenwardy> xyz is no longer willing to host mmdb - it takes too long to fix problems and migrate it - does anyone else have servers that they are willing to host it on? I reckon it could use simplification as well, it's overly complicated ATM.
08:41 Megaf_ What's mmdb?
08:41 rubenwardy minetest mod database
08:41 OldCoder est31 I am literal. I am saying that this is a genuine serious long term project
08:41 rubenwardy I think that it should be possible to download the database of mmdb (minus password hashes)
08:41 OldCoder Not at the Mozilla level but potentially in the hundreds of thousands of users category
08:41 rubenwardy from the mmdb web interface
08:41 OldCoder No
08:41 OldCoder His server will most likely
08:41 OldCoder Not support it; much easier to ZIP
08:42 OldCoder Will he cooperate?
08:42 rubenwardy Who?
08:42 OldCoder This is xyz
08:42 OldCoder correct?
08:42 rubenwardy xyz won't be hosting mmdb anymore
08:42 OldCoder I feel that whoever does, multiple copies *must* be out there
08:43 OldCoder And I will raise this point with the wiki and the forums soon
08:43 rubenwardy I meant a link to the zip from the html of the mmdb web form, generated regularly
08:43 OldCoder Regarding hosting, I have pretty much unlimited disk and bandwidth
08:43 OldCoder Hm
08:43 OldCoder There is an exported ZIP
08:43 OldCoder that can be used to recreate the database?
08:43 rubenwardy I wish minetest.net was minetest.org, much more professional
08:44 rubenwardy :P
08:44 OldCoder I don't think either name is bad
08:44 OldCoder And it's not the subject ATM
08:44 OldCoder So, people are agreeing to move the mmdb?
08:44 rubenwardy I know. What are the contents of the zip? csv?
08:44 rubenwardy It's either move it, or discard it
08:44 OldCoder Well, is it downloadable now?
08:44 OldCoder Right now?
08:45 rubenwardy c55 has copies
08:45 OldCoder Remove passwords or whatever and let me take a look
08:45 OldCoder Are the passwords the same as at the forums or different?
08:45 rubenwardy yes
08:45 OldCoder I already have those passwords
08:45 rubenwardy they share salts and hashes
08:46 OldCoder As I already have the passwords, I can be offered the ZIP now without preparation
08:48 OldCoder Note: It is my position that the ZIPs for all three resources must be available at all times. Passwords can be stripped by scripts on the fly.
08:49 rubenwardy It is not good for one person to have the only copy, they could go AWOL
08:49 OldCoder Exactly
08:49 OldCoder Or two people
08:49 OldCoder No matter who the 2nd person is
08:49 OldCoder I have spent a few years now of Time that I have less of than you on this project
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08:50 OldCoder Many people are doing the same
08:50 rubenwardy One problem that annoys me about MMDB is that only iqualfragile and thexyz had copies of the errorlog, there was nothing I could do (although iqualfragile did try to fix it, it was just an annoying fix)
08:50 OldCoder Yes
08:50 OldCoder It is not reasonable for a group project to be at risk in this manner
08:50 rubenwardy this project = minetest,  or mmdb?
08:50 OldCoder Minetest
08:50 OldCoder Three resources are key: the forums, the mmdb, and the wiki (I assume)
08:50 * OldCoder has not looked at the wiki recently
08:51 OldCoder These resources need to be as FOSS as everything else
08:51 rubenwardy and dev wiki
08:51 OldCoder Two wikis? All right
08:51 OldCoder Agreed
08:51 rubenwardy but that's included i guess
08:51 OldCoder Could be
08:51 OldCoder I have the forums as they were six months ago
08:51 rubenwardy Why?
08:52 OldCoder Hm? Why? To prepare tests of the feasibility of porting them
08:52 OldCoder The tests were successful
08:52 rubenwardy Ah.
08:52 OldCoder The point is, if open copies are not available by Fall
08:52 OldCoder I feel it will be time to fork the forums
08:52 OldCoder As one year will be too late
08:52 OldCoder But it is growing rather late in my time zone
08:52 OldCoder
08:53 OldCoder If there are no conclusions for tonight...
08:53 rubenwardy ok
08:53 OldCoder I may be able to host the mmdb
08:53 rubenwardy It's 0953 for me
08:53 OldCoder I do not know that I could host the forums...
08:53 OldCoder Yes
08:53 OldCoder But all three resources need to be public or they need to be forked
08:53 OldCoder
08:53 * OldCoder has a fast network BTW. Not the current one; it is a loaner.
08:54 rubenwardy time zones are weird :P The contents are publicly accessable anyway, so not a security risk. What's your opinion on this, celeron55?
08:54 OldCoder Passwords
08:54 rubenwardy Passwords won't be included, ofc
08:54 OldCoder He is probably concerned about that. I feel that making all three resources public can be accomplished...
08:54 OldCoder without including passwords
08:55 OldCoder I propose that multiple senior people possess everything *including* passwords. To be clear, this does not need to be me.
08:55 OldCoder
08:55 OldCoder or include me, rather
08:55 rubenwardy how big is the forum db?
08:55 OldCoder Not large at all
08:55 OldCoder Very surprising
08:55 OldCoder But most files are not included
08:55 OldCoder I think my copy is only about 100MB zippeed
08:55 OldCoder I think my copy is only about 100MB zipped *
08:55 rubenwardy wat. wow
08:56 OldCoder Most files are external links
08:56 OldCoder Which raises another issue
08:56 OldCoder I personally want a copy of the forums
08:56 OldCoder So that I can begin mirroring
08:56 OldCoder ALL of the files
08:56 OldCoder As they have a tendency to disappear
08:56 OldCoder
08:56 OldCoder Tonight I created a Hungry Games world...
08:56 OldCoder It needed a specific map
08:56 rubenwardy was on uone
08:56 OldCoder The map had been stored on Ubuntu One
08:56 rubenwardy :(
08:56 OldCoder Which died
08:56 OldCoder But a kind fellow Tester found another link for me
08:57 est31 perhaps we should create a database for minetest maps
08:57 OldCoder I spent hours debugging a problem. Now the project has a spiffy new world.
08:57 OldCoder Could be.
08:57 rubenwardy I had considered that, est31
08:57 OldCoder The point is... projects are built on organized data and knowledge
08:57 OldCoder This is their life's blood
08:57 OldCoder The bits and pieces of this project are crumbling off
08:57 OldCoder
08:58 OldCoder I will offer hosting for all of the files. And make them all available in large Bittorrentable bundles.
08:58 OldCoder
08:58 OldCoder The forums are only a small part of the total size of the accumulated archives. In 3 years I estimate 30% of the material will be dead links.
08:58 OldCoder
08:59 OldCoder Some of it wasn't really needed. But the entire system is too fragile for a serious project.
08:59 OldCoder
08:59 OldCoder s/wasn't/isn't/
08:59 rubenwardy http://irc.minetest.ru/min​etest/2015-01-25#i_4130775
08:59 rubenwardy est31
08:59 OldCoder R
09:00 OldCoder Yes, rubenwardy this should be part of it
09:00 OldCoder
09:00 est31 schematics != worlds
09:00 rubenwardy Irrlicht has so many dead links
09:00 rubenwardy by schematics I meant .we files
09:00 OldCoder rubenwardy, est31 if you are the only ones present, take what I have said under consideration
09:00 est31 yes
09:00 OldCoder Worlds can be archived too BTW
09:00 rubenwardy full worlds could be part of it
09:01 OldCoder Ninja ^
09:01 est31 .we files have a very bloaty format
09:01 OldCoder Unless ZIPped?
09:01 est31 not good for more than one house or so
09:01 OldCoder Yes
09:01 est31 no idea, havent tested it there
09:01 OldCoder Individual schems still useful
09:01 OldCoder
09:01 rubenwardy I like how BAW does it
09:01 rubenwardy ~g build a world
09:01 ShadowBot rubenwardy: https://www.buildaworld.net/ | Immerse yourself in beautiful worlds, with amazing graphics to inspire your creative (or destructive!) talents. Collaborate with your friends as a team, ...
09:01 OldCoder I got to sleep soon. But you follow the logic. For the project to grow and survive, these resources need to be organized and shared
09:02 est31 yes, they are useful, but things like "check out the map I made", or "this server is down now, download the map here" dont work
09:02 rubenwardy They have a library to drag and drop prefabs froms
09:02 OldCoder Please consider supporting a move or fork of the forums
09:02 OldCoder
09:02 OldCoder rubenwardy, est31 BTW minetest.org is less ugly now
09:02 OldCoder ^ Responsive Mobile Friendly
09:02 OldCoder Still needs work
09:02 rubenwardy dat tiling background :)
09:03 rubenwardy It is better than before, though. Goodwork
09:03 * OldCoder shrugs :P
09:03 OldCoder I am learning more
09:03 OldCoder Next pass will be better behaved
09:07 celeron55 i agree with OldCoder
09:07 rubenwardy I'm learning twitter bootstrap ATM, and wordpress
09:07 rubenwardy I thought you would, celeron55, it's logical
09:07 rubenwardy XD
09:08 OldCoder celeron55, :-)
09:08 celeron55 but who is going to oversee all this stuff; i'm not going to make myself responsible for making sure backups distributed between many people don't contain personal information
09:09 rubenwardy http://getbootstrap.com/2.3.2/
09:09 celeron55 if that group of people contains more than me and xyz
09:09 OldCoder Same as other large projects celeron55
09:09 OldCoder I assume they have hierarchies and committes and...
09:09 celeron55 none of our websites have been particularly well designed to separate public information from personal information
09:09 OldCoder policies to prevent individuals from gaining too much control
09:09 technomancy OldCoder: I'm automatically extremely suspicious of any project or community that hosts data on web forums for anything other than an extra copy
09:09 OldCoder technomancy, go on
09:10 technomancy OldCoder: I haven't looked into it, but I'm assuming worlds have a lot of binary data, which git is not good at storing?
09:10 OldCoder Correct. However, worlds are not the core issue here
09:10 OldCoder They are an extra
09:10 technomancy oh, I see
09:10 OldCoder The map that I needed tonight was only 3MB
09:10 OldCoder Few people will download all of Silvercrab
09:11 OldCoder This is about the pure knowledge and bits and pieces needed to deploy it
09:11 OldCoder The forums, recipes, screenshots, mods
09:11 OldCoder I.e. forums, moddb, and two wikis
09:11 technomancy oh yeah... forums are absolutely the wrong place for documentation
09:11 OldCoder And the files that are linked from them
09:11 technomancy but I get that git seems intimidating. the UI is just a mess from a beginners' perspective.
09:12 OldCoder I think this can be worked out over time. How do you feel about wikis?
09:12 technomancy definitely a step up from a forum, especially if they're git-backed
09:12 OldCoder Indeed
09:12 celeron55 < technomancy> I'm automatically extremely suspicious of any project or community that hosts dataon web forums for anything other than an extra copy
09:12 OldCoder I would not propose to reshape things in one pass
09:12 celeron55 where do you expect things to be hosted then? is wiki ok?
09:12 technomancy even when forums are functioning as designed, going back through seven pages of forum posts to try to find the relevant bits is a lot of work
09:13 OldCoder See celeron55's question; it sounds as though a wiki is acceptable for some purposes
09:13 celeron55 everything in here is pretty much made by individuals and you can't expect them to have their own professional websites at least
09:13 technomancy some people take extra steps to try to collect all that into the first post, but that can't be done by the community usually, it has to be the original author
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09:13 technomancy celeron55: I hope I don't come across as too critical. I'm only saying this because it seems like we feel like maybe we can do better?
09:14 celeron55 technomancy: be as critical as you want, but it's not very useful unless you actually have some solutions
09:14 technomancy and I'm sympathetic to the social challenges of teaching github best practices to people who just want to play games
09:14 celeron55 we're doing our best, mostly
09:14 * OldCoder feels that wikis are one path
09:14 OldCoder ModDB is probably useful if expanded to include all pieces
09:14 OldCoder No more Ubuntu Ones or Mediafires
09:15 celeron55 ideally minetest would have its own web platform made from the ground up for the needs of this specific community, but we don't have resources for making that happen
09:15 * OldCoder shudders thinking of Mediafire
09:15 technomancy there are well-trodden paths that work great for professional software developers, but I'm only just starting to learn the games/modding community
09:15 OldCoder Agile is good. Platforms can be worked out.
09:16 technomancy building on git means you get decentralization and easy backups for free, but it comes at a usability/approachability cost
09:16 OldCoder Well, you said a git-backed wiki might be all right
09:16 technomancy though github wikis kind of give you the best of both worlds; people don't necessarily know they're using git behind the scenes
09:16 celeron55 i don't think git is any kind of an issue related to this subject
09:16 celeron55 do you mean github?
09:16 OldCoder Hm? Me?
09:16 OldCoder It was his point
09:17 OldCoder I'd primarily like to see multiple copies of the 3 key resources *and* an effort to start collecting all the bits and pieces
09:17 OldCoder Moving from that into
09:17 OldCoder the type of organized system the 2 of you are discussing.
09:18 OldCoder I feel a wiki is a good place to assemble knowledge extracted from the forums.
09:18 OldCoder I don't think it's the only option.
09:18 technomancy I'm kind of jumping in the middle of the conversation, so sorry for that. but the way I see it, we have several different needs; code storage, data storage, documentation hosting, and discussions, and shoehorning documentation into a platform designed for discussions isn't ideal
09:19 celeron55 i think the wiki and forums should be combined but i have no idea how that can be practically done
09:19 OldCoder Subject for forum threads :P
09:19 technomancy TBH I'm much more comfortable discussing problems and future designs in github issues personally, but I understand not everyone feels the same way.
09:19 celeron55 for me, all discussion is documentation
09:19 technomancy I really wish GH issues were git-backed like the wikis =\
09:20 twoelk therefore dumps should be offered now and then
09:20 OldCoder Well, one step at a time. I've stated what I'd like to see. And I'm serious about...
09:20 OldCoder Writing scripts to scan 10,000s of posts in an offline copy of the forums...
09:20 OldCoder and retrieving and archiving all the linked files. Bringing them home to the project.
09:21 OldCoder
09:21 technomancy documentation has different audiences. what's appropriate for core hackers is very different from what's appropriate for end users
09:21 twoelk that's why there are two wikis
09:22 technomancy yep; I think minetest itself does a good job with this. various mods, from what I've seen: not as much.
09:22 celeron55 so, are people thinking i would be best using my time if i started setting up the forum and other things on my own servers and making an automated system that allows people to download backups of each of them?
09:22 OldCoder Reviewing
09:23 celeron55 because xyz isn't going to do that when he hosts them, and i can't do that when he hosts them
09:23 OldCoder celeron55, there are two types of backups. One with passwords and one without...
09:23 OldCoder Moment
09:23 rubenwardy It's needed, but you're still a volunteer
09:23 OldCoder He sends you snapshots?
09:23 OldCoder How periodically?
09:24 rubenwardy xyz considers names of tables to be a security risks...
09:24 OldCoder Well they are
09:24 OldCoder celeron55, how frequent are the snapshots?
09:24 rubenwardy So you'd have to rename them
09:24 celeron55 i have daily database snapshots, that do not include configuration files, user-uploaded files of the forum or anything from mmdb
09:25 twoelk according to what OldCoder said I would also presume some backups with and some without linked content included such as files and pics
09:25 celeron55 that is, the bare essential of avoiding a complete disaster
09:25 OldCoder Hm. When will user-uploaded files be available to you?
09:25 OldCoder Does he make those snapshots less frequently?
09:25 OldCoder Tell me there is a backup of some sort of the uploaded files?
09:25 celeron55 well anytime i ask, but i don't have proper storage for them so i don't ask
09:25 OldCoder Hm
09:25 OldCoder celeron55, could we start with one 100% snapshot?
09:26 OldCoder Then sort this out? I can take it and I have the passwords already. Or another senior person can do so.
09:26 OldCoder The backup-less state of some of the components is not desirable.
09:26 celeron55 this is really starting to seem like i need to get a second storage-focused VPS and start organizing this web stuff
09:26 OldCoder Probably
09:27 OldCoder Not possible overnight. But if there is no 100% backup, not the user files...
09:27 OldCoder It is probably time to make a full copy
09:28 twoelk could we have a forum guideline that encourages Modders more to put their documentation on the main wiki?
09:28 celeron55 "a full copy" makes it all sound so easy
09:28 OldCoder I do not intend to speak lightly
09:28 OldCoder s/intend/mean/
09:28 OldCoder But I do have the storage and these pieces are not very large
09:29 celeron55 we're talking about many website instances that all hold data in a database and as files, and have their own configurations
09:29 OldCoder Hm? Many website instances? Can you comment further?
09:29 OldCoder I see the pieces as:
09:29 OldCoder The forums, which I have brought up in a copy myself
09:29 OldCoder They are online right now
09:29 OldCoder at forum.minetest.org (or maybe it is forums)
09:29 OldCoder The moddb, and two wikis
09:30 OldCoder Plus the user uploaded and external linked files
09:30 OldCoder for any of these components
09:30 rubenwardy Access denied for user 'phpbb3'@'localhost' (using password: YES) [1045]
09:30 OldCoder It sounds as though the complete copy would only be a few GB
09:30 OldCoder Hm? Is that on my server? It will be fine shortly
09:30 celeron55 well i mean 1) two wikis, which have stuff in a database and as files and a configuration including some plugins, 2) the forum, which again has content in a database and as files and a configuration, 3) mmdb, which again has a database and files, and a configuration
09:30 OldCoder It is probably due to this being a temporary copy of the server
09:30 OldCoder Yep
09:31 OldCoder celeron55, I or other engineers can handle that. I made a fully functional copy of the forums in about 4 hours.
09:31 twoelk maybe include the skin database
09:31 OldCoder My server is on a truck somewhere near the U.S. East Coast
09:31 OldCoder yes
09:31 est31 truck?!
09:31 celeron55 a compressed copy will be somewhat over 2GB
09:31 OldCoder Yes
09:31 OldCoder Small
09:31 OldCoder :-)
09:32 * OldCoder has a few terabytes
09:32 OldCoder The days of limited storage are coming to an end
09:33 OldCoder I bought a colocated server. With one of those you aren't really limited.
09:33 rom1504 a mobile server, that's an interesting idea
09:33 celeron55 i much more value reliable storage than infinite storage
09:33 OldCoder Both are sort of needed
09:33 OldCoder Reliable comes from redundancy
09:33 rom1504 put a server on a truck, connect the server with 4G or something, then let the truck go anywhere
09:33 OldCoder I feel that at any one time there must be multiple copies of snapshots available
09:33 celeron55 yeah except that 4G can't handle the traffic :P
09:33 OldCoder rom1504, now you arer talking :P
09:34 OldCoder My server is not running from the truck
09:34 rom1504 :d
09:34 OldCoder It is headed for its new home
09:34 OldCoder s/arer/are/
09:34 OldCoder I am on another octocore as a loaner. With a gigabit network I think.
09:34 OldCoder Most of you
09:34 OldCoder will be on such servers in the near future
09:35 OldCoder Times are changing. With endless bandwidth and data all possibilities will be open.
09:35 twoelk does the truck have a nice minetest logo on it's side?  :-D
09:35 OldCoder I will look into it :P
09:35 OldCoder celeron55, I respectfully suggest that at least one full snapshot be made. I can host it and make copies available solely to senior MT people. We can then...
09:35 celeron55 i still don't care about hardware specs; it's more important that the person paying for the server is reliable than any features that the server system might have
09:35 OldCoder ^ Yes
09:36 OldCoder Again redundancy
09:36 OldCoder No single person
09:36 OldCoder Or pair of people
09:36 OldCoder Mozilla is not run that way
09:36 OldCoder If there are multiple copies of data; a project can never die or be killed.
09:36 OldCoder Redundancy is the key that outweighs even apocalypse.
09:37 twoelk one archive of minetest knowledge for each kontinent ;-P
09:37 OldCoder Not a bad idea
09:37 OldCoder xyz has Russia covered
09:37 OldCoder I am sure there is an Europe option
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09:37 OldCoder I can represent the U.S.
09:37 OldCoder We do need Down Under
09:38 OldCoder Anyway there are two types of data administratively
09:38 OldCoder The complete snapshot which must be handled properly
09:38 OldCoder And a sanitized copy that could be used to reboot a project
09:39 OldCoder I propose that a complete snapshot be made at this time. It will have limited distribution. But there should be multiple copies in existence.
09:39 OldCoder Decisions about redundant hosting of public sites should then be made.
09:40 OldCoder The public sites may offer sanitized copies of the archives. This is not overnight. It is a proposal to be worked out.
09:40 OldCoder I offer to do some of the hosting but it does not need to include me...
09:40 OldCoder I do feel that the bits and pieces linked from the content, Ubuntu One and so on, need to be collected.
09:41 OldCoder If I can address IRL issues I will spend the time needed to do some of this.
09:41 * OldCoder has been doing this part since 1995
09:41 * OldCoder likes to collect websites and files
09:41 OldCoder
09:41 OldCoder I can't deal with captcha sites
09:41 OldCoder Such as Mediafire
09:41 OldCoder But any externally linked file with simple HTML surrounding it
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09:42 OldCoder Can be pulled into an External Files database and can thereafter never be lost
09:42 OldCoder ^ OldCoder proposal
09:42 OldCoder
09:42 * OldCoder hopes that these thoughts are a sensible starting point and thanks everybody for their willingness to listen
09:42 OldCoder
09:44 rubenwardy sounds good
09:44 rubenwardy also, are you aware that you post empty lines on IRC sometimes?
09:44 * OldCoder bows and prepares to sleep. He respectfully suggests further discussion in the near future. If there is a 2GB archive...
09:45 OldCoder rubenwardy, I have explained those:
09:45 rubenwardy good night. Sleep well :)
09:45 OldCoder #1 they are paragraph breaks #2 they are respectful acknowledgments when there is nothing to be added
09:45 OldCoder #3 they are...
09:45 OldCoder Zzz
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10:29 celeron55 hmm... i'm not really sure if i want to take this task, actually
10:30 celeron55 because frankly i hate managing shitty web applications
10:32 celeron55 anyway, i'm getting the full snapshot from xyz and i'm going to make sure this thing gets somewhere somehow
10:37 technomancy it does seem unfortunate that people who know the engine inside out are stuck doing administrivia like this. I wish I had a server of my own.
10:37 celeron55 yes that's what i mean; i could be doing something more productive with the time that i can allocate to minetest
10:39 technomancy =\
10:41 technomancy have you asked for volunteers anywhere?
10:41 technomancy or I guess there's a bit of a trust issue since the server stores passwords etc?
10:47 celeron55 well, OldCoder is probably pretty much the only one who could properly handle this instead of me
10:48 celeron55 altough i know that not everyone trusts him either
10:48 celeron55 you probably saw his style of doing things 8)
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10:50 technomancy well as a rule I never trust anyone willing to run PHP software on their own servers un-ironically so...
10:51 technomancy =)
10:51 celeron55 (and yes, if i publicly asked for a volunteer, people couldn't trust them with the passwords and possibly some other things even if they could prove they have the skills and time to do it properly)
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10:53 celeron55 also hosting the stuff is a larger problem for me than it should be because i would first need to upgrade my VPS, and such an upgrade is too expensive at my current provider so i would first need to switch the provider
10:53 celeron55 and... yeah
10:53 celeron55 this is ridiculous
10:55 technomancy good old yak shave
10:55 celeron55 altough that's actually a smaller task than it sounds like because i use a configuration management system
10:55 celeron55 it's just that i need an openbsd vps for it to work because that's what i now use
10:56 technomancy the curse of success
10:57 celeron55 i would be totally fine with doing all this shit if it paid my bills but it doesn't
10:57 technomancy have you looked into funding options? patreon or gratipay, etc?
10:58 celeron55 well, i know of them, but i'm rather pessimistic about it
10:58 technomancy I had to shut down the S3 bucket for downloads of one of my projects that really took off because the bills started getting over $45/mo and growing
10:59 technomancy (was able to move to github, but it broken a number of old scripts)
11:00 celeron55 i'm quite afraid of sounding like all the "fund my useless life" patreons if i'd try that, and i also don't think this community has a lot of money to spare because it's full of kids
11:03 celeron55 i don't know though, i might be totally wrong
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11:06 celeron55 also, i find it hard to think in that way after years of just keeping things rolling with a bare minimum effort
11:06 technomancy I'm thinking about using minetest to teach programming and unix skills to kids. if it works out I'd be willing to point some gratipay your way
11:06 technomancy but yeah, it is definitely awkward to start it
11:08 technomancy it's solid stuff though; impressive tech that's a lot of fun. I think it could get some good publicity among FOSS advocates if you can emphasize the "more than just a clone" aspect
11:08 celeron55 i have experience of doing subcontracting projects and i would probably use the same principles patreon/gratipay money
11:08 celeron55 +for
11:08 celeron55 it's just quite different to the "try something and if it works, publish it" thing that minetest has always been
11:10 technomancy yeah... I get that. it would be nice if it could just stay low-key, but... it's too awesome for that =)
11:11 celeron55 well i probably should market it as not just the software or the game or something like that, but as doing whatever the community as a whole needs
11:11 celeron55 ...it's what it's about anyway
11:12 celeron55 or actually
11:13 celeron55 i can expand this to be a lot more complicated than that; i mean, the history of minetest works like this: first there was the project that i was doing with purely the "try something and if it works, publish it" ideology, but then it changed to this community around what the original thing ended up as, where everyone is given kind of that same opportunity
11:14 technomancy yeah, you can kind of tell it started that way from the name =D
11:15 technomancy anyway, I don't know what the right answer is for this community; just something to think about
11:16 twoelk actually that initiall idea and offering the same possabillity for others  is one of the best parts of minetest
11:17 twoelk and I do think that the path of using minetest as a tool for education would be a great chance for the project
11:17 twoelk Where coding wouldn't be the only thing minetest could be used at schools for
11:18 technomancy right; I totally get the notion of offering an engine that makes it easy for you to bring your own ideas to life
11:18 technomancy but I understand that it's difficult to communicate when newbies come in and just want "minecraft but for free"
11:18 technomancy I'm an Emacs user, so that notion is very familiar to me =)
11:22 celeron55 minetest's position is also quite weird in the modern game development world with unity3d and all that
11:22 celeron55 the fact that it's FOSS is a clear differentiation, but all else is kind of... fuzzy
11:24 technomancy oh yeah?
11:25 technomancy I'm not really familiar with that scene
11:25 technomancy the ability to build worlds with lua is hugely important to me; I can't function without a repl
11:25 celeron55 i mean, the minetest engine is kind of a toy from a game development perspective, but it's also not a game, and it has this community of people that actually like it quite as-is
11:25 est31 It isn't a real competitor to engines like unity or godot
11:26 est31 its a voxel game engine
11:26 Calinou Godot has no voxel mode :P
11:26 Calinou you'd have to write it yourself
11:26 technomancy is it a toy because it's implemented in a way that's considered naive by the pros or because it uses lua instead of forcing people to suffer through writing C++?
11:26 est31 you might have less possibilities, but making voxel games are far more easier with minetest than unity or godot
11:26 est31 technomancy, godot uses a high level language too
11:26 technomancy oh cool
11:26 est31 dunno bout unity
11:27 Calinou Unity also has its script language, as far as I know.
11:27 technomancy voxels are democratizing in a way though; everyone can build content for them instead of needing to hire a big team of artists
11:27 Calinou Godot uses its own language, GDScript, similar (but not the same) to Python
11:27 celeron55 technomancy: it's too inflexible for most game developers even if they want to make a voxel-based game; instead it's quite ideal if you just want to host a server to mess around in
11:27 est31 I think godot has muliple languages in fact
11:27 Calinou you can code your game logic in C++ too, but it's discouraged unless you need it
11:28 Calinou in theory, languages other than GDScript can be implemented, but no one got around to it
11:28 est31 because I read somewhere that its implementation is even smaller than the lua bindingy
11:28 est31 s*
11:28 technomancy I've been pretty impressed with lua's power:weight ratio even if it's not my favourite language
11:29 est31 lua has ... limitations
11:29 est31 but mostly I like it
11:30 est31 yea voxels make many things easier
11:30 est31 you don't have to detail everything into its smallest parts
11:30 est31 very nice and good concept
11:31 est31 because in non-voxel games there is always the comparison with reality
11:31 est31 "look here, this tree group looks exactly the same as the left of it"
11:32 technomancy similar to cartoons in a way; you just come into it with a different set of expectations
11:33 est31 yup.
11:34 est31 so regarding quality, voxel games are somewhere between GTA 5 and dwarf fortress :)
11:38 celeron55 question: do you think it would be wrong for me to set up a patreon/gratipay and ask money *before* starting to do stuff?
11:38 jin_xi dwarf fortress is beyond quality
11:39 est31 that only was about visual quality jin_xi :)
11:40 celeron55 apparently nobody will answer anything to that question; interesting 8)
11:43 technomancy celeron55: I don't think it would work with patreon, but it fits well into the concept of gratipay
11:43 technomancy it's supposed to be about "I like what this guy has done; I'm going to give him more money in hopes that he does more of the same, no strings attached"
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11:43 technomancy because it's explicitly anonymous gifts
11:43 technomancy patreon is all about strings attached, which can be good in some situations
11:50 celeron55 that becomes a bit weird when you take into account the fact that i have been focusing on projects outside minetest in the recent years, but i guess i could state that it's explicitly to bring me back to working more on minetest
11:53 technomancy "Minetest is an infinite-world block sandbox game and a game engine, inspired by InfiniMiner, Minecraft and the like." <- sorry if this is a touchy subject, but is there a reason the first blurb you read about it doesn't refer to it exclusively as an engine?
11:53 technomancy I got the feeling the intent was to de-emphasize the role of minetest_game
11:55 celeron55 i'd say the public image of minetest hasn't really been well thought out
11:55 technomancy is there disagreement among the core developers, or just a lack of clarity in the "marketing"?
11:56 celeron55 we don't really have people who care about the marketing stuff
11:56 technomancy I thought I read that minetest_game was basically done, and that if someone wanted to take the idea further it should happen in a 3rd-party subgame... maybe I misunderstood
11:57 celeron55 yes, that's my statement and it's still valid; however things are moving very slowly
11:58 est31 btw do you like Calinou's draft for a new website? I do.
11:58 technomancy do you have a link?
11:58 est31 nope :(
11:59 est31 hope Calinou shows up ... :)
11:59 technomancy celeron55: FWIW I think that's absolutely the right approach. positioning it as a game in and of itself invites a lot of irrelevant criticism and de-emphasizes the strengths of minetest
12:00 technomancy I am really tired of the tired old "free software doesn't innovate" trope.
12:00 technomancy this is about enabling people to do things that would be completely infeasible in minecraft as it's designed
12:01 est31 minecraft doesn't even have an official modding API, am I right?
12:01 celeron55 est31: i don't think Calinou's draft is that much better
12:01 technomancy est31: that's correct; the mods break all the time.
12:01 technomancy it's all based on reverse engineering and violating the EULA iiuc
12:03 celeron55 i'm quite proud of the fact that basically everything in this community is properly licensed and there is zero legal grayness going on
12:04 Calinou est31, the “modding API” they keep promising is likely to be a running gag
12:05 technomancy when I looked into the mc modding scene it was a big http://p.hagelb.org/11what.gif and when I found minetest it was like "these are my people"
12:05 technomancy as a FOSS nerd
12:14 twoelk In the description of minetest maybe take out the confusing word infinite and add something along the lines of mt is an engine that allows to play subgames inspired by bla bla
12:21 celeron55 that doesn't make much sense to a random visitor either; describing minetest in a way that is actually true and actually makes sense is hard :P
12:22 technomancy what about saying "minetest is a game engine and a community; here are some of the kinds of games we have made..."
12:23 technomancy show by example?
12:24 twoelk which brings us back to the old problem of which game to feature prominently
12:25 celeron55 yeah this is a deep hole you're going into 8)
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12:26 twoelk rather minetestwise a deep cave with many monsters and not enough torches at hand
12:28 est31 especially not enough wood
12:28 est31 you can craft torches and tools from wood, but you can't find wood in caves :)
12:29 technomancy ah yeah... curation and favouritism. tricky.
12:29 celeron55 it could work if we had an integrated system that generated the public stuff from a community database or something
12:29 celeron55 maintaining a showcase for all the community-made stuff by hand is not something anyone really wants to do
12:31 celeron55 i mean, it's quite exciting because it's not really something that is often seen, but it's also tedious due to the same reason; there are o ready-made solutions
12:31 twoelk made a list of games for the wiki that outdates faster than I have time to update
12:31 celeron55 there are no*
12:33 technomancy well, you only want the most polished examples on the splash page of minetest.net, but telling someone their subgame isn't polished enough for that is a touchy subject
12:41 twoelk http://wiki.minetest.net/List_of_Subgames see the explaining for the second column with the links to older irc discussions
12:43 twoelk oops, rather links to forum threads
12:44 technomancy wow, that's quite a list
12:47 twoelk I guess by now most of column 2 (x) is outdated news anyways
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12:54 twoelk we could use this http://www.kiwix.org/ for offline versions of the wikis offered as download
12:55 celeron55 that's not a real snapshot though; probably very hard to restore back to being a website
13:02 twoelk indeed, kiwix seems to be an oneway road :( at least I can't find any info on converting back to a wiki
13:08 celeron55 so, while we were talking i wrote this draft just to see if i could come up with a reasonable text for such a purpose: http://fpaste.org/224649/32300030/
13:08 celeron55 don't expect that to go live anyway soon or maybe ever, but feel free to comment :P
13:09 celeron55 s/anyway/anytime/
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13:15 celeron55 anyway, i think that's kind of plausible
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13:18 twoelk hm, someday we will need an unified roadmap
13:19 twoelk though true lines 14-16 might be tricky for a public statement
13:19 est31 celeron55, have you found a nice engine yet?
13:19 technomancy wow, I had no idea replacing the engine was even an option
13:20 technomancy client-side scripting would really own; working within the limitations of formspects is a bit unfortunate
13:20 celeron55 well that one is rather far fetched but i don't think irrlicht will suffice forever even while everything else would
13:20 technomancy gotcha
13:20 * twoelk hasn't seen a convincing replacement candidat yet that addresses all issues
13:20 est31 yea my thoughts too
13:21 technomancy is the client-side scripting project still in the design/brainstorming phase?
13:21 est31 not even there
13:21 * technomancy nods
13:21 twoelk more storm than brain
13:22 est31 we only have determined who does it, not what he does :)
13:22 technomancy I'm excited about the ability to implement an xterm in minetest since I have the beginnings of a little toy unix
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14:06 twoelk would this be an option to archive the minetest wikis? https://archive.org/details/wikiteam
14:17 est31 what do people who know more about C compilers know about this: https://github.com/minetest/minete​st/pull/2695#discussion_r30898053
14:17 est31 is nrz right here
14:18 est31 or is a switch as fast as an array lookup?
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14:25 exio4 est31: a switch may get compiled to a jump table, which would be pretty much a array lookup + jump, anyway, an array lookup would make it obvious that the operation is constant time
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14:29 nore est31: I reckon that a switch is slower than an array lookup because there will be pipeline control hazards
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16:31 Krock Comments for #2714 please.
16:31 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2714 -- Fix Windows build, clean up included headers by SmallJoker
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16:41 hmmmm Krock:  why not just change strings.h to string.h?
16:42 est31 Krock, the change inside s_security.cpp isn't the right way
16:43 est31 windows uses \r\n (or \n\r, forgot which way round) for line termination, so what will happen is:
16:43 Krock hmmmm: "libstdc++ doesn't include <cstring> inside of <string>, unlike libc++." https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/43702e
16:43 est31 lines either start or end with \r
16:43 Krock It's \r\n
16:43 hmmmm Krock:  and?
16:43 hmmmm the point is that it needed string.h, not necessarily strings.h.  i said this was a mistake
16:44 hmmmm what you're doing there now breaks compatibility with freebsd and it's just the completely wrong way to fix it
16:44 Krock I wasn't sure about that point. I'll remove those lines
16:44 hmmmm all you needed to do is remove one 's'
16:44 Krock string is already included in porting.h
16:45 hmmmm okay then
16:45 hmmmm maybe just remove the entire #ifdef .... then
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16:46 Krock done
16:47 hmmmm as for the file mode change, I'm not really sure
16:47 est31 Krock, do you use minetest inside the context of cygwin, or is it 100% windows only build?
16:48 hmmmm you need to understand this means no line ending conversions will be performed and therefore you need to account for the extra added \r when you open a file created under windows
16:48 Krock est31, compiled on MSVC, Windows XP (no VM)
16:48 est31 because I wonder whether minetest on windows should or should not use \r
16:49 Krock windows doesn't really care but most editors save it as \r\n
16:49 hmmmm minetest on windows should place \r\n
16:49 hmmmm but minetest should absolutely never care about line endings
16:50 hmmmm so it's pretty much mandatory to ensure that there are no trailing \rs or what have you if you open it as a binary file
16:50 est31 this is only about reading
16:50 est31 Its ok for me if its ensured the \r characters do no bad stuff
16:50 est31 do you know what happens with them?
16:51 hmmmm they get left along with the input if it's opened under unix
16:51 est31 yea but here we deliberately open with "rb"
16:51 est31 which I think is the better alternative
16:52 est31 as with "r", all size calculations will fail
16:52 Krock I think lua should get the file as-is, unmodified.
16:52 est31 http://c-faq.com/stdio/textvsbinary.html
16:54 est31 also "rb" forces us to take care of \r ourselves
16:54 est31 but I guess lua simply ignores those characters
16:54 est31 ok then
16:55 Krock There are mods created on Windows and there were no problems with the line endings :)
17:03 Krock est31, is there anything I should change or could you agree with that pull please?
17:06 est31 Krock, did it fail building before?
17:06 Krock est31, yes. MSVC doens't know strings.h
17:06 est31 ok then +1
17:06 Krock hmmmm, please?
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17:48 hmmmm yes??
17:56 rubenwardy https://meldy.hira.io/Zerobin/?e34d9a8aa421da1​f#y5yzNUdeaWQZzonpetyEuabwriJCWxKcAsJpMjAvZns=
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18:02 est31 rubenwardy, what minetest version is that?
18:03 nolsen 0.4.12-dev
18:03 nolsen If that is correct.
18:03 nolsen I'm getting the version from what it says upon server join
18:04 nolsen est31, It first crashed multiple times when I didn't anything the username box.
18:04 nolsen I'm not sure you could use this crash all the servers.
18:05 est31 ouch
18:05 est31 ah I see
18:08 Krock hmmmm, talking about pull #2714 , est already agreed. Do you think it needs a change or would you agree too?
18:08 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2714 -- Fix Windows build, clean up included headers by SmallJoker
18:08 hmmmm yes, looks good
18:08 nolsen est31, I could try testing it again by clearing my username and see if it continues, on Windows and linux.
18:09 est31 would be great if you did
18:09 est31 I just wonder: how did you manage to connect with a blank username?
18:09 nolsen dunno
18:09 nolsen I didn't.
18:09 Krock fine. Please push that fix soon.
18:09 nolsen It just got stuck at "Connecting"
18:09 nolsen and then I timeout, I found out why and oh look, server crash.
18:10 nolsen try again, same thing.
18:10 est31 so the field was blank, was there some content in there before, or was it the first start of minetest?
18:10 nolsen first start
18:10 est31 ahhhh
18:10 est31 usually this is catched by mainmenu lua
18:10 est31 but not in this case
18:10 nolsen but I wonder if this could put other servers at risk.
18:11 est31 either way a must-fix
18:11 est31 yes indeed
18:11 nolsen because if someone finds out about this, they could just start crashing all the pub and priv severs.
18:11 est31 yea
18:11 rubenwardy lol
18:11 est31 so two things to do right now
18:11 nolsen est31, try clearing your name in minetest.conf and connect to 188.165.3.51
18:13 est31 yea
18:13 est31 I can reproduce it locally
18:14 kahrl a check at network/serverpackethandler.cpp:167 would probably be best
18:15 nolsen est31, Want me to pull the issue on github?
18:19 kahrl est31: https://gist.github.com/ano​nymous/469a0589d49ee112d184
18:20 est31 I have a slightly shorter version https://gist.github.com/ano​nymous/fdcf5e2c7e478ffdba47
18:21 est31 gonna push that then. nolsen what is your github username, so that I can attribute you?
18:21 nolsen UltimateNate
18:25 est31 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commi​t/e13d2bafc6d0a4fb0d42cf9c229012f4a4f17131
18:26 * nolsen goes back discovering bugs
18:26 nolsen If I can find my minetest terminal
18:27 est31 ?
18:27 nolsen est31, I have terminals cluttering
18:27 nolsen and apps
18:28 est31 weird desktop environment?
18:28 nolsen no
18:28 nolsen LXDE
18:28 nolsen I use a terminal to open minetest
18:29 est31 ok
18:29 nolsen I wonder what happens if I use UTF-8 special chars like ÅÃÃÃ
18:29 nolsen in a username.
18:29 est31 that should be catched
18:29 nolsen But if the server can handle it?
18:29 est31 but please test it :)
18:30 est31 UTF-8 is one of the weak points of minetest
18:30 est31 freeminer is better in this regard
18:30 kahrl the reason only ascii characters are allowed is to prevent impersonation attacks, and to ensure every admin can type every username (in case they need to ban or kick)
18:31 nolsen It appears the server can handle i t.
18:31 nolsen hm...
18:38 kahrl (and disallowing symbols like . and / prevents directory traversal attacks when the server writes player files)
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18:45 nolsen est31: Right now I'm seeing what bugs or exploits there is by using cheat engine :3
18:46 nolsen And having 2 clients open on my server.
18:46 est31 cheat engine?
18:47 Calinou it's a cheating program :P
18:48 nolsen http://www.cheatengine.org/
18:48 est31 a debugger basically?
18:48 nolsen It can do speed hack, modify codes.
18:48 nolsen People could use it to hack.
18:48 nolsen est31: If you join my server, I can show you under a user name "Test", is running than normal.
18:48 nolsen If I set any speed higher, the server will detect and reset me.
18:49 nolsen I'm barely going under the server's cheat radar.
18:49 nolsen I sometimes have my position reset.
18:49 nolsen s/running/walking
18:51 nolsen s/People could use it to hack/People could use it to exploit.
18:51 est31 interesting program
18:52 nolsen I tried using it, but I'm not a hacker.
18:52 nolsen I just use the speedhack, sometimes it doesn't work
18:52 nolsen or work well.
18:52 est31 there are multiple definitions of "hacker"
18:52 est31 or "hacking"
18:52 nolsen s/hacker/exploiter
18:52 nolsen I guess this is more of an exploiting tool
18:54 est31 you can cheat in singleplayer as much as you want, but I guess when you do it on a public server, its owners won't like it.
18:54 est31 and ban you in most cases.
18:54 nolsen if they can find out
18:54 nolsen I'm just testing it on my server.
18:54 nolsen You might not even know one's exploiting.
18:54 Krock nolsen, use wpe pro to mess up a server
18:55 nolsen wpe?
18:55 Krock "wpe pro", it sends and receives packets
18:58 nolsen It seems speed 1.8 on the speedhack section is the most smooth option.
18:59 nolsen Though it's a great way to spam one's console with walking too fast errors :P
19:16 rubenwardy #1869
19:16 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/1869 -- Add scriptapi interface to HTTPFetchRequest by Jeija
19:16 rubenwardy What's the stance on this, now that security is added?
19:23 est31 if, it should be added to the api thats only accessible when you trust a mod, or disable mod security
19:33 exio4 cheat engine is pretty useless if you have access to a compiler and the source code
19:33 est ^
19:34 exio4 I mean, if you give me 15 minutes, I'll have speed hack, just let me recompile the source code!
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19:40 Krock oh, if you're already compiling a minetest speedhack, also include a CPU speedhack
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20:29 Megaf proller: I bet Freemine already has this feature included. #2715
20:29 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2715 -- ["Feature Request"] Stop crashing the entire server because "a nil value"
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20:31 Megaf paramat: Hi, great work on biomes and mapgen and all that stuff, really, I do appreciate. But, shouldn't water freeze on snow biomes?
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20:33 paramat comments from devs on game#519 would be appreciated :) this issue should perhaps have been in minetest
20:33 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/519 -- Should mgv6 snowbiomes be enabled by default?
20:33 paramat hi
20:33 paramat it freezes to icesheet in tundra
20:33 Megaf paramat: I'm no dev, but I have enabled snowbiomes on my server today and it seems very nice, works good
20:33 paramat taiga is snowy but not cold enough for ocean to freeze over
20:35 paramat i guess lakes IRL would freeze in taiga, but oceans would not, so i chose no freezing
20:35 paramat cool
20:36 paramat it makes biomes too small though, that will be fixed soon
20:40 Megaf Devs < https://github.com/minetest/minetest​/issues/2507#issuecomment-104761608
20:41 exio4 Megaf: what would happen in those cases?
20:41 Megaf I don't now
20:42 Megaf IMHO a non declared variable can be as buggy as a nil value
20:42 Megaf both can cause severe crash/currption because of missuse, both are bugs
20:42 paramat (comments from non-devs welcome too)
20:42 Megaf make both fatals then
20:43 Megaf Problem is, that will require more from mod devs
20:43 kilbith fix is pretty trivial
20:44 Megaf paramat: about snow biomes, I do think they could be enabled by default yes. But that is not my final word, I'd like to do more tests and keep observing my servers behaviours for the next couple of days
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20:50 paramat to fix biome size i recommend a spread of (500, 500, 500) for biome noise
20:51 paramat mgv6_np_biome = 0, 1, (500, 500, 500), 9130, 3, 0.50, 2.0 in .conf
20:52 paramat if snowbiomes are made default that ^ may become default
20:52 Megaf That could causes some incositencies(I don't know how to spell this) on mapgen on existing maps
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20:55 paramat hopefully not, as noise params are stored per-world in map-meta.txt
20:55 paramat it would affect new worlds only
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23:23 paramat hmmmm how do these comments look? https://github.com/paramat/minetest​/blob/c7ef3edc43640c52fe09036d685af​7ffd5e2bbb6/src/mapgen_v7.cpp#L592
23:32 nolsen local finitewater = minetest.setting_getbool("liquid_finite")
23:32 nolsen erm
23:32 nolsen wrong post
23:32 nolsen 18:30:35: WARNING: Undeclared global variable "title" accessed at ...esktop\minetest-0.4.12\bin\..​\builtin\mainmenu\store.lua:183

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