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IRC log for #minetest-dev, 2015-05-21

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Time Nick Message
00:04 paramat hey hmmmm ive looked at your paste of generateBiomeColumn and there are some errors, also last night's discussion uncovered some errors in my original code, so because i wrote the original code and understand it please could i work on this? i would like to first correct my original code, then study and edit your generateBiomeColumn function to be logically identical
00:06 paramat is (u32)-1 just a huge number?
00:11 paramat essentially i feel the task of moving generatebiomes to biomemanager needs to be postponed, i need about a week to sort this out
00:23 hmmmm what errors?
00:24 hmmmm i went through it to make sure that it's logically correct, and i also corrected a couple places where you checked for non-air when in fact you meant to check for solid
00:24 hmmmm thanks for looking at it though
00:30 paramat okay i'll explain the errors..
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00:33 paramat need_biome_recalc is set to true so biome is always calculated at the top of every column. half of a world's chunks have air at column top so there is unnecessary calculation of biome 6400 times per chunk for a half of a world's chunks
00:35 paramat my code only calculates biome if stone or water is detected
00:37 hmmmm that's easily fixable
00:37 hmmmm i was expecting some kind of deep, logic error that I missed out on
00:37 hmmmm you scared me for a bit
00:37 paramat heh
00:38 hmmmm hmmm
00:38 paramat line 13 checks for stone at the base of the chunk above, if the chunk above is already generated the overtop node could be anything, not just stone
00:38 hmmmm for the next-gen biomes, I'm planning on making getBiome only consider heat and humidity so it'd be able to read from a precomputed table
00:39 hmmmm this would make getBiome calls computationaly cheap
00:39 hmmmm for what it's worth
00:39 hmmmm hrm you raise a good point, I didn't think about that
00:39 hmmmm no wonder why you made it check explicitly for water or air
00:40 hmmmm anything else? so far
00:40 paramat yeah..
00:41 paramat i'm not sure about the logic for triggering recalc of biome, dependant on nplaced != 0
00:41 hmmmm if nplaced is already 0, then that means it hasn't encountered stone yet
00:42 paramat recalculation should only be triggered when there is stone or water below an air node, then that biome is in effect for all nods below until air is placed again
00:43 paramat water below air needs to trigger recalc
00:44 paramat ..then that biome tajes care of the seabed below
00:45 paramat i admit im still trying to get my head around your logic
00:45 paramat i like some of the tricks you've used to reduce redundancy
00:46 hmmmm hrmmm
00:46 hmmmm wait why does water below air need to retrigger
00:46 hmmmm i didn't think of that tbh
00:46 hmmmm i tried to make my logic super simple and understandable
00:46 paramat becaus there's now biome secific water, whereas originally there was only dust-on-water
00:47 paramat (specific)
00:48 paramat so water counts as a new upper surface that triggers recalc
00:48 paramat before it was the seabed that did that
00:49 paramat the biome calculated at water surface then includes the seabed below, so after calculation at sea level no more calculation is needed
00:50 paramat so, next-gen biomes won't consider altitude?
00:51 paramat anyway, back on topic, it may be worth adding in checks for river water as this is now added as the 4th base terrain node
00:52 paramat and will be used in v8 and my own new core mapgen i'm struggling with
00:55 paramat but that could be added later or river mapgens could have their own genbiiomes function
00:55 paramat (struggling with highland pools, very difficult)
01:00 paramat anyway, lets not worry about river mapgens for now, their genbiomes function needs to be quite specialized so perhaps best as a separate function
01:01 paramat in your code i think 'depth filler' should be called 'base filler' to not confuse it with biome->depth_filler which is different
01:03 paramat finally, why nplaced = (u32)-1 is that a huge unsigned number?
01:16 paramat i just realised i was wrong to say water should set have_air to false, that is needed to prepare for the seabed. my mistake is that have_air then triggers biome recalc for every water node
01:17 paramat so don't base your function on my code, it has errors. i think we need a new 'air_above' flag
01:17 paramat i need a few days to understand your code, and fix my own, and since we both seem a little confused =)
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01:24 paramat biome calculation should be triggered 'if (c != CONTENT_AIR && (y == node_max.Y || air_above)) .. i think
01:24 paramat anyway i'll work on fixing my current code..
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02:13 hmmmm oh right
02:13 hmmmm alright, three things to adjust
02:14 hmmmm the last one makes the code uglier :/
02:34 hmmmm paramat, if you read this: (u32)-1 is because we need an nplaced that is guaranteed higher than any possible max filler depth so that it'd go right to placing stone and not top/filler nodes
02:35 hmmmm i'd set it equal to the max filler depth, but in that scenario we don't know what that would be since a biome has not been calculated yet
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02:52 paramat thanks, this is what i have so far https://github.com/paramat/minetest​/blob/feca5e6c0c048f2fbb9c72b9260d8​597c7ebabd4/src/mapgen_v7.cpp#L592
02:53 paramat still needs testing though, and i'll add that (u32)-1
02:53 paramat bbl
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03:03 hmmmm I think I might be able to do this without any added booleans still
03:05 hmmmm is 128 the maximum base_filler?
03:06 hmmmm also i wanted to ask you about stone_type
03:07 hmmmm i realize that taking the X+, Z+ corner biome stone type seems to work sufficiently, but what is the absolute correct way of calculating this?
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04:05 * paramat reads
04:06 paramat base filler of 128 needs changing to (u32)-1, i just chose a big number
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04:09 paramat currently stone type is set to stone by default (for deep underground), then during any calculation of biome if any biome containing desert stone or sandstone is chosen at any point stone type gets changed
04:09 paramat also the default of stone means empty chunks get cobble dungeons
04:11 paramat so sonce it's per-chunk often there will be temples or sandstone dungeons up to 80 nodes away from deserts or sandstone biomes
04:11 paramat perhaps ideally it would be calculated for chunk centre
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04:13 paramat so my head cleared. i realised the problem with to your code was the logic controlling the triggering of biome recalculation. it must be independant of nplaced because consider a series of underwater ledges: nplaced will go through several cycles but biome should not be recalculated
04:14 paramat so the air_above bool seems essential
04:15 paramat studying your code and working on mine i know what you mean by 'messy and with redundancies' studying your code has been very helpful and i integrated your improvements into my latest code
04:16 paramat air needs chacking because a chunk does not only contain air, water or stone. there will be bits of overgenerated tree and dungeon too
04:17 paramat so the main 'if elseif' block needs an 'else' at the end to deal with these solid tree and dungeon nodes
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04:22 paramat for stone type, the problem is that due to biomes having ymin/ymax if we choose a single point to choose stone type it may miss the biome containing desert stone or sandstone. so i suggest leaving it as it is
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04:23 paramat as it is there's no chance of missing the triggering stone
04:34 paramat actually i'm not sure base_filler needs to be set to a big number at the top, perhaps not
04:40 paramat oops my nplaced should be a u32..
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05:25 paramat errors fixed and quickly tested https://github.com/paramat/minetest​/blob/874d0e0475e3b3915a88565121135​350bcd7035f/src/mapgen_v7.cpp#L592
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15:38 kilbith have a dumb question... do only the mapblocks exposed faces or out of camera's view are only rendered ?
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16:00 kilbith s/out of/inside
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16:01 Calinou we do use view frustrum culling, as well as occlusion culling
16:01 Calinou occlusion culling is never perfect, but we believe it's aggressive enough
16:02 kilbith ok thanks
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16:11 RealBadAngel Calinou, you may want to try it: https://github.com/RealBadA​ngel/minetest/tree/minimap3
16:15 Calinou do you need to use a setting to enable minimap?
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16:16 RealBadAngel no i dont need that setting
16:16 RealBadAngel i think i will remove it
16:17 RealBadAngel but on the other hand later on i plan to allow control minimap from lua
16:17 Calinou is there a key binding? I don't see minimap
16:17 RealBadAngel F9
16:17 Calinou F9 already bound to cinematic here…
16:17 Calinou <_<
16:17 RealBadAngel https://github.com/RealBadAngel/minetest/co​mmit/a3dd74534ac56c7598c72cc397b1a621ba2d74​f7#diff-3474ba74d8eb9c72a47c6542f51eb4fcR52
16:17 Calinou oh it's changeable in GUI
16:17 Calinou thanks
16:18 Calinou oh no it isn't
16:18 Calinou only cinematic is changeable, not minimap
16:18 Calinou it should be changeable in GUI
16:18 Calinou maybe I want X for that
16:18 rubenwardy F8 is cinematic
16:18 RealBadAngel thats good idea to let user define the key
16:19 Calinou you should make Sneak + Minimap toggle go the other way around
16:19 Calinou ie. zoom out
16:19 Calinou also why is the map not in the top right corner? it's almost at the center of the screen
16:19 RealBadAngel btw, with threaded scanning we can afford 256x256 as zoom x1
16:20 RealBadAngel calinou, hillPlaneMesh has flaws
16:20 RealBadAngel i will use another method for it
16:20 RealBadAngel but it definitely have to be a mesh
16:21 Calinou your fading function is quite bad, when I'm on mountains I barely see stuff on minimap
16:21 RealBadAngel i have already found code which does such thing
16:21 RealBadAngel Calinou, thats the point
16:21 RealBadAngel youre too far away
16:21 Calinou make it optional :/
16:21 Calinou Rei's minimap had such an option
16:22 RealBadAngel no i cant, otherwise you wont be able to scan for surface on other levels
16:22 RealBadAngel structures in the air, etc
16:22 RealBadAngel theres no fixed surface level
16:22 RealBadAngel and btw, do you know how many nodes it scans to get 256x256 minimap?
16:23 Calinou 256³?
16:23 RealBadAngel 8388608
16:23 RealBadAngel 256x256x128
16:23 Calinou whoa, your minimap goes behind blocks when you're in third person
16:24 RealBadAngel for surface mode, scan height is 128 nodes, for radar 32
16:24 Calinou https://lut.im/TCZnoYid/WAHXhhP6
16:24 RealBadAngel heheh, funny
16:24 RealBadAngel position and size is correct only for 4:3
16:25 RealBadAngel pity that method doesnt work for ohter ratios
16:25 Calinou make position changeable by user :P
16:25 Calinou also, what about making minimap transparent instead of black when it scans nothing?
16:26 RealBadAngel doesnt look good
16:26 RealBadAngel at least imho
16:26 RealBadAngel makes the minimap look like crap
16:27 RealBadAngel ofc when not complete yet
16:27 RealBadAngel about position, texures etc, all will be changeable from lua
16:28 RealBadAngel so games could make minimap a tool, aviable via crafting for example
16:29 RealBadAngel you will be able even to use minimap texture in formspecs
16:30 RealBadAngel 512x512 doesnt take too long to scan
16:31 Calinou scan only once per second or so
16:31 Calinou only when player moves
16:31 Calinou there should be max rate, in case you move very fast
16:31 Calinou 10 scans per second sounds reasonable
16:31 Calinou 20 maybe
16:31 RealBadAngel scannin is done in separate thread
16:31 Calinou definitely not more
16:32 RealBadAngel if you will trigger refresh on player move you will not get loading blocks around you
16:32 RealBadAngel until you move again
16:32 RealBadAngel anyway, scanner itself doesnt slow down fps at all
16:33 RealBadAngel only the code that shows the texture
16:33 Calinou how much times per second do you scan?
16:33 Calinou should be limited in any case
16:33 Calinou especially when user has menu opened
16:33 RealBadAngel what for?
16:33 Calinou to limit CPU usage
16:33 RealBadAngel its in another thread
16:33 Calinou doesn't mean you shouldn't limit it
16:33 RealBadAngel when not scanning it will run in empty loop
16:34 RealBadAngel no point in limiting anything
16:35 RealBadAngel it runs in background, reports to main thread if texture is ready. once grabbed it starts new scan
16:36 Krock ShadowNinja, there's an ugly calculation error somewhere in s_security.cpp. 'num_read' is '1088' when 'size' is '1126'
16:36 Krock Lua fails to open builtin\init.lua
16:36 RealBadAngel Calinou, anyway, just compare FPS with and without minimapper
16:38 RealBadAngel but on the other hand the code can be optimized for sure, like everythin else
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16:40 RealBadAngel also, about fading. if i remove it the area out of scanner reach will just disappear
16:41 RealBadAngel and you wont see difference on different planes full of same nodes
16:41 RealBadAngel all will become just flat
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17:00 est31 pushing in 5 minutes https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/​36b58964b2b4be37ea667ab263d719f818cc093d
17:01 est31 err
17:01 est31 doesnt build
17:01 est31 will fix that
17:01 est31 then pushing the fixed version
17:02 est31 https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/​9facb40738e7c51c838ad2ccffd96028862160cb
17:06 Krock est31, could you also push a commit to change the "r" to "rb" in  https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/ma​ster/src/script/cpp_api/s_security.cpp#L267 please?
17:07 Krock (fixes windows builds)
17:08 est31 eh, is this \r\n stuff?
17:11 est31 hm, this basically boils down to the question whether we should have \r\n endings on windows, or \n.
17:12 Krock est31, no, it's about windows special features. It needs a 'b' to read every character as how it is
17:12 rubenwardy Isn't rb just read binary
17:12 est31 yes
17:12 Krock rubenwardy, aren't text files just binary files?
17:12 rubenwardy Yeah...
17:12 rubenwardy I wasn't saying they weren't
17:12 Krock however, without that additional 'b' character, it results in a wrong character count on reading
17:13 est31 so, then that should be fixed instead
17:14 est31 yea, quite the error happened forecasted here: http://c-faq.com/stdio/textvsbinary.html
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17:15 TeTpaAka Thank you, est31.
17:16 est31 thanks for pointing out :)
17:18 TeTpaAka Is there any Information available for client side scripting? Or is there currently no design for it?
17:19 est31 hmmmm has one, but hasn't yet talked about it.
17:19 rubenwardy It's on the core dev's todo list, but there's been no real design discussion yet
17:19 rubenwardy I'd be interested in a GH issue, wiki page or maillist
17:19 est31 but generally I wouldn't rely on any features while its still in development
17:20 est31 or before implementation has even started
17:20 TeTpaAka Yes, I know. But he pointed out, that features like nametag colors should be done client side.
17:20 est31 yes
17:21 TeTpaAka And so I wondered how it would be done. How does the server tell the client, which function to run?
17:21 TeTpaAka Does the server provide the code or does the client has to download it?
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17:21 est31 the server provides the code
17:21 TeTpaAka Ah, ok.
17:22 est31 we won't make it like minecraft, where people have to download stuff only to join servers
17:22 est31 of course, this also opens a security risk
17:22 TeTpaAka Sound reasonable.
17:23 TeTpaAka But would it be possible to install client side scripts that only alter the appearance and don't have any impact on the gameplay?
17:23 est31 how do you mean that?
17:23 TeTpaAka Something like shaders...
17:23 rubenwardy The user should be notified that the server is sending client side scripts, though, and have the option to cancel #2324
17:23 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2324 -- Dialogs whilst game loading
17:23 rubenwardy It should also display licenses etc
17:23 rubenwardy ie: get out of the JS trap
17:24 est31 why is js a trap?
17:24 est31 this discussion again
17:24 est31 I hate it
17:24 est31 only because it runs on your box, why does it have to be open source
17:24 est31 as long as its inside a sandbox who cares
17:26 est31 already now we have no license for the map
17:26 rubenwardy I don't care, others do
17:27 est31 Calinou mostly
17:28 est31 but yes the sandbox has to be very strong
17:31 Calinou running untrusted client code has implications
17:31 Calinou it's not because browsers did a wrong thing we should do it again
17:32 est31 which implications Calinou ?
17:32 Calinou ethics, security
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17:33 est31 is there ethical and unethical javascript?
17:33 RealBadAngel hmm, whats more dangeroes, client side code which user can see and inspect or connecting to server with its mods (able to act client side) which user cannot see at al?
17:33 Calinou the ethical one is free, the unethical one isn't
17:33 Calinou and the unethical one is sometimes even distributed in obfuscated form
17:33 Calinou RealBadAngel, the server-side code can't do harm to your PC
17:34 est31 yes, security is a big point
17:34 rubenwardy That's your version of ethics, though. For the majority of the world non-free is still ethical
17:34 Calinou some server admins might get angry at their userbase and start distributing dangerous code
17:34 Calinou and some other admins will obfuscate it to prevent “theft”
17:34 est31 so what
17:34 RealBadAngel calinou, i bet i could do a littlle mess on client side with servers mods
17:35 est31 the server code is protected from "theft" too
17:35 RealBadAngel like filling up whole clients disk for example ;)
17:35 est31 Calinou, do you want to put minetest into AGPL?
17:36 Calinou no
17:36 RealBadAngel but whatever, we do need client side mods
17:36 est31 I think we should call it client side lua
17:36 RealBadAngel without them we wont get any good mobs, carts etc
17:37 est31 yea carts are shit
17:37 est31 currently
17:37 Calinou add a way to vizualize code from clien
17:37 Calinou like Web browsers do
17:37 Calinou at least we can shame server owners who obfuscate their code :)
17:38 est31 perhaps
17:38 est31 we need some way to debug yes
18:01 jin_xi i like helicopter mod, but it breaks badly when you ride it across camera offset. no matter how buggy the mod, such internals should not interfere with users
18:02 jin_xi anyway i hope that the possibility of future features does not stop people from trying to make current ones better
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23:54 paramat thoughts on game#519 ? i realised it would not break existing worlds to enable by default
23:54 ShadowBot https://github.com/minetes​t/minetest_game/issues/519 -- Should mgv6 snowbiomes be enabled by default?
23:57 est31 why breaking?
23:57 est31 "why does it break"

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