| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:04 |
paramat |
hey hmmmm ive looked at your paste of generateBiomeColumn and there are some errors, also last night's discussion uncovered some errors in my original code, so because i wrote the original code and understand it please could i work on this? i would like to first correct my original code, then study and edit your generateBiomeColumn function to be logically identical |
| 00:06 |
paramat |
is (u32)-1 just a huge number? |
| 00:11 |
paramat |
essentially i feel the task of moving generatebiomes to biomemanager needs to be postponed, i need about a week to sort this out |
| 00:23 |
hmmmm |
what errors? |
| 00:24 |
hmmmm |
i went through it to make sure that it's logically correct, and i also corrected a couple places where you checked for non-air when in fact you meant to check for solid |
| 00:24 |
hmmmm |
thanks for looking at it though |
| 00:30 |
paramat |
okay i'll explain the errors.. |
| 00:31 |
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| 00:33 |
paramat |
need_biome_recalc is set to true so biome is always calculated at the top of every column. half of a world's chunks have air at column top so there is unnecessary calculation of biome 6400 times per chunk for a half of a world's chunks |
| 00:35 |
paramat |
my code only calculates biome if stone or water is detected |
| 00:37 |
hmmmm |
that's easily fixable |
| 00:37 |
hmmmm |
i was expecting some kind of deep, logic error that I missed out on |
| 00:37 |
hmmmm |
you scared me for a bit |
| 00:37 |
paramat |
heh |
| 00:38 |
hmmmm |
hmmm |
| 00:38 |
paramat |
line 13 checks for stone at the base of the chunk above, if the chunk above is already generated the overtop node could be anything, not just stone |
| 00:38 |
hmmmm |
for the next-gen biomes, I'm planning on making getBiome only consider heat and humidity so it'd be able to read from a precomputed table |
| 00:39 |
hmmmm |
this would make getBiome calls computationaly cheap |
| 00:39 |
hmmmm |
for what it's worth |
| 00:39 |
hmmmm |
hrm you raise a good point, I didn't think about that |
| 00:39 |
hmmmm |
no wonder why you made it check explicitly for water or air |
| 00:40 |
hmmmm |
anything else? so far |
| 00:40 |
paramat |
yeah.. |
| 00:41 |
paramat |
i'm not sure about the logic for triggering recalc of biome, dependant on nplaced != 0 |
| 00:41 |
hmmmm |
if nplaced is already 0, then that means it hasn't encountered stone yet |
| 00:42 |
paramat |
recalculation should only be triggered when there is stone or water below an air node, then that biome is in effect for all nods below until air is placed again |
| 00:43 |
paramat |
water below air needs to trigger recalc |
| 00:44 |
paramat |
..then that biome tajes care of the seabed below |
| 00:45 |
paramat |
i admit im still trying to get my head around your logic |
| 00:45 |
paramat |
i like some of the tricks you've used to reduce redundancy |
| 00:46 |
hmmmm |
hrmmm |
| 00:46 |
hmmmm |
wait why does water below air need to retrigger |
| 00:46 |
hmmmm |
i didn't think of that tbh |
| 00:46 |
hmmmm |
i tried to make my logic super simple and understandable |
| 00:46 |
paramat |
becaus there's now biome secific water, whereas originally there was only dust-on-water |
| 00:47 |
paramat |
(specific) |
| 00:48 |
paramat |
so water counts as a new upper surface that triggers recalc |
| 00:48 |
paramat |
before it was the seabed that did that |
| 00:49 |
paramat |
the biome calculated at water surface then includes the seabed below, so after calculation at sea level no more calculation is needed |
| 00:50 |
paramat |
so, next-gen biomes won't consider altitude? |
| 00:51 |
paramat |
anyway, back on topic, it may be worth adding in checks for river water as this is now added as the 4th base terrain node |
| 00:52 |
paramat |
and will be used in v8 and my own new core mapgen i'm struggling with |
| 00:55 |
paramat |
but that could be added later or river mapgens could have their own genbiiomes function |
| 00:55 |
paramat |
(struggling with highland pools, very difficult) |
| 01:00 |
paramat |
anyway, lets not worry about river mapgens for now, their genbiomes function needs to be quite specialized so perhaps best as a separate function |
| 01:01 |
paramat |
in your code i think 'depth filler' should be called 'base filler' to not confuse it with biome->depth_filler which is different |
| 01:03 |
paramat |
finally, why nplaced = (u32)-1 is that a huge unsigned number? |
| 01:16 |
paramat |
i just realised i was wrong to say water should set have_air to false, that is needed to prepare for the seabed. my mistake is that have_air then triggers biome recalc for every water node |
| 01:17 |
paramat |
so don't base your function on my code, it has errors. i think we need a new 'air_above' flag |
| 01:17 |
paramat |
i need a few days to understand your code, and fix my own, and since we both seem a little confused =) |
| 01:21 |
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| 01:24 |
paramat |
biome calculation should be triggered 'if (c != CONTENT_AIR && (y == node_max.Y || air_above)) .. i think |
| 01:24 |
paramat |
anyway i'll work on fixing my current code.. |
| 01:27 |
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| 02:13 |
hmmmm |
oh right |
| 02:13 |
hmmmm |
alright, three things to adjust |
| 02:14 |
hmmmm |
the last one makes the code uglier :/ |
| 02:34 |
hmmmm |
paramat, if you read this: (u32)-1 is because we need an nplaced that is guaranteed higher than any possible max filler depth so that it'd go right to placing stone and not top/filler nodes |
| 02:35 |
hmmmm |
i'd set it equal to the max filler depth, but in that scenario we don't know what that would be since a biome has not been calculated yet |
| 02:52 |
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| 02:52 |
paramat |
thanks, this is what i have so far https://github.com/paramat/minetest/blob/feca5e6c0c048f2fbb9c72b9260d8597c7ebabd4/src/mapgen_v7.cpp#L592 |
| 02:53 |
paramat |
still needs testing though, and i'll add that (u32)-1 |
| 02:53 |
paramat |
bbl |
| 02:53 |
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| 03:03 |
hmmmm |
I think I might be able to do this without any added booleans still |
| 03:05 |
hmmmm |
is 128 the maximum base_filler? |
| 03:06 |
hmmmm |
also i wanted to ask you about stone_type |
| 03:07 |
hmmmm |
i realize that taking the X+, Z+ corner biome stone type seems to work sufficiently, but what is the absolute correct way of calculating this? |
| 04:05 |
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| 04:05 |
* paramat |
reads |
| 04:06 |
paramat |
base filler of 128 needs changing to (u32)-1, i just chose a big number |
| 04:07 |
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| 04:09 |
paramat |
currently stone type is set to stone by default (for deep underground), then during any calculation of biome if any biome containing desert stone or sandstone is chosen at any point stone type gets changed |
| 04:09 |
paramat |
also the default of stone means empty chunks get cobble dungeons |
| 04:11 |
paramat |
so sonce it's per-chunk often there will be temples or sandstone dungeons up to 80 nodes away from deserts or sandstone biomes |
| 04:11 |
paramat |
perhaps ideally it would be calculated for chunk centre |
| 04:13 |
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| 04:13 |
paramat |
so my head cleared. i realised the problem with to your code was the logic controlling the triggering of biome recalculation. it must be independant of nplaced because consider a series of underwater ledges: nplaced will go through several cycles but biome should not be recalculated |
| 04:14 |
paramat |
so the air_above bool seems essential |
| 04:15 |
paramat |
studying your code and working on mine i know what you mean by 'messy and with redundancies' studying your code has been very helpful and i integrated your improvements into my latest code |
| 04:16 |
paramat |
air needs chacking because a chunk does not only contain air, water or stone. there will be bits of overgenerated tree and dungeon too |
| 04:17 |
paramat |
so the main 'if elseif' block needs an 'else' at the end to deal with these solid tree and dungeon nodes |
| 04:20 |
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| 04:22 |
paramat |
for stone type, the problem is that due to biomes having ymin/ymax if we choose a single point to choose stone type it may miss the biome containing desert stone or sandstone. so i suggest leaving it as it is |
| 04:22 |
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| 04:23 |
paramat |
as it is there's no chance of missing the triggering stone |
| 04:34 |
paramat |
actually i'm not sure base_filler needs to be set to a big number at the top, perhaps not |
| 04:40 |
paramat |
oops my nplaced should be a u32.. |
| 05:08 |
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| 05:25 |
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| 05:25 |
paramat |
errors fixed and quickly tested https://github.com/paramat/minetest/blob/874d0e0475e3b3915a88565121135350bcd7035f/src/mapgen_v7.cpp#L592 |
| 05:25 |
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| 15:38 |
kilbith |
have a dumb question... do only the mapblocks exposed faces or out of camera's view are only rendered ? |
| 15:42 |
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| 16:00 |
kilbith |
s/out of/inside |
| 16:00 |
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| 16:01 |
Calinou |
we do use view frustrum culling, as well as occlusion culling |
| 16:01 |
Calinou |
occlusion culling is never perfect, but we believe it's aggressive enough |
| 16:02 |
kilbith |
ok thanks |
| 16:08 |
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| 16:11 |
RealBadAngel |
Calinou, you may want to try it: https://github.com/RealBadAngel/minetest/tree/minimap3 |
| 16:15 |
Calinou |
do you need to use a setting to enable minimap? |
| 16:15 |
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| 16:16 |
RealBadAngel |
no i dont need that setting |
| 16:16 |
RealBadAngel |
i think i will remove it |
| 16:17 |
RealBadAngel |
but on the other hand later on i plan to allow control minimap from lua |
| 16:17 |
Calinou |
is there a key binding? I don't see minimap |
| 16:17 |
RealBadAngel |
F9 |
| 16:17 |
Calinou |
F9 already bound to cinematic here… |
| 16:17 |
Calinou |
<_< |
| 16:17 |
RealBadAngel |
https://github.com/RealBadAngel/minetest/commit/a3dd74534ac56c7598c72cc397b1a621ba2d74f7#diff-3474ba74d8eb9c72a47c6542f51eb4fcR52 |
| 16:17 |
Calinou |
oh it's changeable in GUI |
| 16:17 |
Calinou |
thanks |
| 16:18 |
Calinou |
oh no it isn't |
| 16:18 |
Calinou |
only cinematic is changeable, not minimap |
| 16:18 |
Calinou |
it should be changeable in GUI |
| 16:18 |
Calinou |
maybe I want X for that |
| 16:18 |
rubenwardy |
F8 is cinematic |
| 16:18 |
RealBadAngel |
thats good idea to let user define the key |
| 16:19 |
Calinou |
you should make Sneak + Minimap toggle go the other way around |
| 16:19 |
Calinou |
ie. zoom out |
| 16:19 |
Calinou |
also why is the map not in the top right corner? it's almost at the center of the screen |
| 16:19 |
RealBadAngel |
btw, with threaded scanning we can afford 256x256 as zoom x1 |
| 16:20 |
RealBadAngel |
calinou, hillPlaneMesh has flaws |
| 16:20 |
RealBadAngel |
i will use another method for it |
| 16:20 |
RealBadAngel |
but it definitely have to be a mesh |
| 16:21 |
Calinou |
your fading function is quite bad, when I'm on mountains I barely see stuff on minimap |
| 16:21 |
RealBadAngel |
i have already found code which does such thing |
| 16:21 |
RealBadAngel |
Calinou, thats the point |
| 16:21 |
RealBadAngel |
youre too far away |
| 16:21 |
Calinou |
make it optional :/ |
| 16:21 |
Calinou |
Rei's minimap had such an option |
| 16:22 |
RealBadAngel |
no i cant, otherwise you wont be able to scan for surface on other levels |
| 16:22 |
RealBadAngel |
structures in the air, etc |
| 16:22 |
RealBadAngel |
theres no fixed surface level |
| 16:22 |
RealBadAngel |
and btw, do you know how many nodes it scans to get 256x256 minimap? |
| 16:23 |
Calinou |
256³? |
| 16:23 |
RealBadAngel |
8388608 |
| 16:23 |
RealBadAngel |
256x256x128 |
| 16:23 |
Calinou |
whoa, your minimap goes behind blocks when you're in third person |
| 16:24 |
RealBadAngel |
for surface mode, scan height is 128 nodes, for radar 32 |
| 16:24 |
Calinou |
https://lut.im/TCZnoYid/WAHXhhP6 |
| 16:24 |
RealBadAngel |
heheh, funny |
| 16:24 |
RealBadAngel |
position and size is correct only for 4:3 |
| 16:25 |
RealBadAngel |
pity that method doesnt work for ohter ratios |
| 16:25 |
Calinou |
make position changeable by user :P |
| 16:25 |
Calinou |
also, what about making minimap transparent instead of black when it scans nothing? |
| 16:26 |
RealBadAngel |
doesnt look good |
| 16:26 |
RealBadAngel |
at least imho |
| 16:26 |
RealBadAngel |
makes the minimap look like crap |
| 16:27 |
RealBadAngel |
ofc when not complete yet |
| 16:27 |
RealBadAngel |
about position, texures etc, all will be changeable from lua |
| 16:28 |
RealBadAngel |
so games could make minimap a tool, aviable via crafting for example |
| 16:29 |
RealBadAngel |
you will be able even to use minimap texture in formspecs |
| 16:30 |
RealBadAngel |
512x512 doesnt take too long to scan |
| 16:31 |
Calinou |
scan only once per second or so |
| 16:31 |
Calinou |
only when player moves |
| 16:31 |
Calinou |
there should be max rate, in case you move very fast |
| 16:31 |
Calinou |
10 scans per second sounds reasonable |
| 16:31 |
Calinou |
20 maybe |
| 16:31 |
RealBadAngel |
scannin is done in separate thread |
| 16:31 |
Calinou |
definitely not more |
| 16:32 |
RealBadAngel |
if you will trigger refresh on player move you will not get loading blocks around you |
| 16:32 |
RealBadAngel |
until you move again |
| 16:32 |
RealBadAngel |
anyway, scanner itself doesnt slow down fps at all |
| 16:33 |
RealBadAngel |
only the code that shows the texture |
| 16:33 |
Calinou |
how much times per second do you scan? |
| 16:33 |
Calinou |
should be limited in any case |
| 16:33 |
Calinou |
especially when user has menu opened |
| 16:33 |
RealBadAngel |
what for? |
| 16:33 |
Calinou |
to limit CPU usage |
| 16:33 |
RealBadAngel |
its in another thread |
| 16:33 |
Calinou |
doesn't mean you shouldn't limit it |
| 16:33 |
RealBadAngel |
when not scanning it will run in empty loop |
| 16:34 |
RealBadAngel |
no point in limiting anything |
| 16:35 |
RealBadAngel |
it runs in background, reports to main thread if texture is ready. once grabbed it starts new scan |
| 16:36 |
Krock |
ShadowNinja, there's an ugly calculation error somewhere in s_security.cpp. 'num_read' is '1088' when 'size' is '1126' |
| 16:36 |
Krock |
Lua fails to open builtin\init.lua |
| 16:36 |
RealBadAngel |
Calinou, anyway, just compare FPS with and without minimapper |
| 16:38 |
RealBadAngel |
but on the other hand the code can be optimized for sure, like everythin else |
| 16:39 |
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| 16:40 |
RealBadAngel |
also, about fading. if i remove it the area out of scanner reach will just disappear |
| 16:41 |
RealBadAngel |
and you wont see difference on different planes full of same nodes |
| 16:41 |
RealBadAngel |
all will become just flat |
| 16:55 |
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| 16:56 |
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| 17:00 |
est31 |
pushing in 5 minutes https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/36b58964b2b4be37ea667ab263d719f818cc093d |
| 17:01 |
est31 |
err |
| 17:01 |
est31 |
doesnt build |
| 17:01 |
est31 |
will fix that |
| 17:01 |
est31 |
then pushing the fixed version |
| 17:02 |
est31 |
https://github.com/est31/minetest/commit/9facb40738e7c51c838ad2ccffd96028862160cb |
| 17:06 |
Krock |
est31, could you also push a commit to change the "r" to "rb" in https://github.com/minetest/minetest/blob/master/src/script/cpp_api/s_security.cpp#L267 please? |
| 17:07 |
Krock |
(fixes windows builds) |
| 17:08 |
est31 |
eh, is this \r\n stuff? |
| 17:11 |
est31 |
hm, this basically boils down to the question whether we should have \r\n endings on windows, or \n. |
| 17:12 |
Krock |
est31, no, it's about windows special features. It needs a 'b' to read every character as how it is |
| 17:12 |
rubenwardy |
Isn't rb just read binary |
| 17:12 |
est31 |
yes |
| 17:12 |
Krock |
rubenwardy, aren't text files just binary files? |
| 17:12 |
rubenwardy |
Yeah... |
| 17:12 |
rubenwardy |
I wasn't saying they weren't |
| 17:12 |
Krock |
however, without that additional 'b' character, it results in a wrong character count on reading |
| 17:13 |
est31 |
so, then that should be fixed instead |
| 17:14 |
est31 |
yea, quite the error happened forecasted here: http://c-faq.com/stdio/textvsbinary.html |
| 17:14 |
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| 17:15 |
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| 17:15 |
TeTpaAka |
Thank you, est31. |
| 17:16 |
est31 |
thanks for pointing out :) |
| 17:18 |
TeTpaAka |
Is there any Information available for client side scripting? Or is there currently no design for it? |
| 17:19 |
est31 |
hmmmm has one, but hasn't yet talked about it. |
| 17:19 |
rubenwardy |
It's on the core dev's todo list, but there's been no real design discussion yet |
| 17:19 |
rubenwardy |
I'd be interested in a GH issue, wiki page or maillist |
| 17:19 |
est31 |
but generally I wouldn't rely on any features while its still in development |
| 17:20 |
est31 |
or before implementation has even started |
| 17:20 |
TeTpaAka |
Yes, I know. But he pointed out, that features like nametag colors should be done client side. |
| 17:20 |
est31 |
yes |
| 17:21 |
TeTpaAka |
And so I wondered how it would be done. How does the server tell the client, which function to run? |
| 17:21 |
TeTpaAka |
Does the server provide the code or does the client has to download it? |
| 17:21 |
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| 17:21 |
est31 |
the server provides the code |
| 17:21 |
TeTpaAka |
Ah, ok. |
| 17:22 |
est31 |
we won't make it like minecraft, where people have to download stuff only to join servers |
| 17:22 |
est31 |
of course, this also opens a security risk |
| 17:22 |
TeTpaAka |
Sound reasonable. |
| 17:23 |
TeTpaAka |
But would it be possible to install client side scripts that only alter the appearance and don't have any impact on the gameplay? |
| 17:23 |
est31 |
how do you mean that? |
| 17:23 |
TeTpaAka |
Something like shaders... |
| 17:23 |
rubenwardy |
The user should be notified that the server is sending client side scripts, though, and have the option to cancel #2324 |
| 17:23 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest/issues/2324 -- Dialogs whilst game loading |
| 17:23 |
rubenwardy |
It should also display licenses etc |
| 17:23 |
rubenwardy |
ie: get out of the JS trap |
| 17:24 |
est31 |
why is js a trap? |
| 17:24 |
est31 |
this discussion again |
| 17:24 |
est31 |
I hate it |
| 17:24 |
est31 |
only because it runs on your box, why does it have to be open source |
| 17:24 |
est31 |
as long as its inside a sandbox who cares |
| 17:26 |
est31 |
already now we have no license for the map |
| 17:26 |
rubenwardy |
I don't care, others do |
| 17:27 |
est31 |
Calinou mostly |
| 17:28 |
est31 |
but yes the sandbox has to be very strong |
| 17:31 |
Calinou |
running untrusted client code has implications |
| 17:31 |
Calinou |
it's not because browsers did a wrong thing we should do it again |
| 17:32 |
est31 |
which implications Calinou ? |
| 17:32 |
Calinou |
ethics, security |
| 17:32 |
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| 17:33 |
est31 |
is there ethical and unethical javascript? |
| 17:33 |
RealBadAngel |
hmm, whats more dangeroes, client side code which user can see and inspect or connecting to server with its mods (able to act client side) which user cannot see at al? |
| 17:33 |
Calinou |
the ethical one is free, the unethical one isn't |
| 17:33 |
Calinou |
and the unethical one is sometimes even distributed in obfuscated form |
| 17:33 |
Calinou |
RealBadAngel, the server-side code can't do harm to your PC |
| 17:34 |
est31 |
yes, security is a big point |
| 17:34 |
rubenwardy |
That's your version of ethics, though. For the majority of the world non-free is still ethical |
| 17:34 |
Calinou |
some server admins might get angry at their userbase and start distributing dangerous code |
| 17:34 |
Calinou |
and some other admins will obfuscate it to prevent “theft†|
| 17:34 |
est31 |
so what |
| 17:34 |
RealBadAngel |
calinou, i bet i could do a littlle mess on client side with servers mods |
| 17:35 |
est31 |
the server code is protected from "theft" too |
| 17:35 |
RealBadAngel |
like filling up whole clients disk for example ;) |
| 17:35 |
est31 |
Calinou, do you want to put minetest into AGPL? |
| 17:36 |
Calinou |
no |
| 17:36 |
RealBadAngel |
but whatever, we do need client side mods |
| 17:36 |
est31 |
I think we should call it client side lua |
| 17:36 |
RealBadAngel |
without them we wont get any good mobs, carts etc |
| 17:37 |
est31 |
yea carts are shit |
| 17:37 |
est31 |
currently |
| 17:37 |
Calinou |
add a way to vizualize code from clien |
| 17:37 |
Calinou |
like Web browsers do |
| 17:37 |
Calinou |
at least we can shame server owners who obfuscate their code :) |
| 17:38 |
est31 |
perhaps |
| 17:38 |
est31 |
we need some way to debug yes |
| 18:01 |
jin_xi |
i like helicopter mod, but it breaks badly when you ride it across camera offset. no matter how buggy the mod, such internals should not interfere with users |
| 18:02 |
jin_xi |
anyway i hope that the possibility of future features does not stop people from trying to make current ones better |
| 18:12 |
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| 23:54 |
paramat |
thoughts on game#519 ? i realised it would not break existing worlds to enable by default |
| 23:54 |
ShadowBot |
https://github.com/minetest/minetest_game/issues/519 -- Should mgv6 snowbiomes be enabled by default? |
| 23:57 |
est31 |
why breaking? |
| 23:57 |
est31 |
"why does it break" |
