| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:00 |
Mantar |
:( |
| 00:00 |
alguien |
What's the point of client-side mods that you have to install on the server-side? |
| 00:00 |
Mantar |
seriously? |
| 00:00 |
alguien |
Yes |
| 00:00 |
alguien |
Well maybe there's a point, but it's also missing the other point |
| 00:00 |
alguien |
The client wanting to mod his own experience |
| 00:00 |
Mantar |
okay, use-case: I can set up controls and node prediction in Exile and send it to the client so that there's no lag on input |
| 00:01 |
alguien |
I don't understand that use case, but I'll take your word for it. I understand CSMs are for avoiding round trips |
| 00:01 |
alguien |
*SSCSMs |
| 00:01 |
Mantar |
as it stands any specialized control handling is done server-side, and cannot take effect until a client-server-client loop has been made |
| 00:02 |
alguien |
But you're driving users who want to mod to cheat clients |
| 00:02 |
alguien |
By disabling people from modding on the client side |
| 00:02 |
Mantar |
this is especially annoying for our crouch mode, which is done by double-tapping shift -- any significant server lag makes it unreliable |
| 00:03 |
Mantar |
I don't care what those people want to do, I'm trying to write a game here and the engine is fighting me |
| 00:03 |
alguien |
I'm one of those people |
| 00:03 |
alguien |
Why should I care what you're trying to do if you don't care what I'm trying to do? |
| 00:03 |
alguien |
It's not a dichotomy |
| 00:03 |
Mantar |
you don't have to? |
| 00:04 |
Mantar |
but when I ask for SSCSM and you say "hopefully never" that implies you DO care and don't want me to have the thing |
| 00:05 |
alguien |
I corrected myself, I recognize there are legitimate use-cases, I was actually thinking in terms of dichotomies, because that's how SSCSMs were presented to us: As a replacement for CSMs. They're not |
| 00:05 |
Mantar |
well yeah, it's a very different thing |
| 00:05 |
alguien |
I hope you get your SSCSMs, and I get my CSMs back |
| 00:05 |
Mantar |
^_^ b |
| 00:10 |
alguien |
Here's my use-case: Since I'm composing textures, I want to be able to find out the texture name of something. But even the get_item_def/get_node_def that _are_ listed in client_lua_api.md return nil for me. Why? |
| 00:17 |
alguien |
Betcha if I used the snakevenom client I'd be able to do that. But then I'd be able to do 100 other things by the click of a button |
| 00:18 |
alguien |
cheating things, mind you |
| 00:23 |
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| 00:34 |
alguien |
Given a server and a port, how would I go about downloading only its textures? |
| 00:34 |
cheapie |
[17:29:59] <MTDiscord> <luatic> Use [texture modifiers] when necessary or useful, but don't use them as a janky image editor when you could just use a real image editor instead. |
| 00:34 |
cheapie |
Aww, so no https://cheapiesystems.com/media/mtpaint-saveload.webm ? :P |
| 00:35 |
alguien |
cheapie, what's that canvas mod? |
| 00:35 |
cheapie |
https://cheapiesystems.com/git/digiscreen/ |
| 00:36 |
alguien |
Ah, nice |
| 00:36 |
cheapie |
I should probably convert it to use [png sometime. It predates it AFAIK. |
| 00:36 |
alguien |
wait, it doesn't? ouch |
| 00:37 |
alguien |
cheapie, what about the memory leak? |
| 00:37 |
cheapie |
The memory leak is normally not particularly significant unless you *really* hammer one for a long time. |
| 00:38 |
alguien |
Ayo cheapie, I like your digistuff, but... |
| 00:39 |
alguien |
So this image is thousands of texture modifiers? https://content.minetest.net/uploads/V3eGHkFrYU.png |
| 00:39 |
cheapie |
Yes, a total of 4112 things being [combine-d if my math is right. |
| 00:40 |
alguien |
Cheapie my friend. Heal me from this cringe |
| 00:40 |
cheapie |
With a static image like that the performance tends to be alright. If you start trying to animate it then clients start slowing down. |
| 00:40 |
alguien |
lol |
| 00:41 |
alguien |
on an unrelated note: are you familiar with basic_robot? |
| 00:41 |
cheapie |
In terms of hearing nonstop complaining about it and having it break all kinds of things, yes. In terms of actually having used it, no. |
| 00:42 |
alguien |
Too bad that's not two yes-s. |
| 00:43 |
alguien |
I'm hoping someone will take over that wonderful but unmaintained mod |
| 00:44 |
alguien |
By the way what's the difference between the touchscreen and the advanced touchscreen? |
| 00:44 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> advancedness |
| 00:48 |
alguien |
Also, which mod adds the console and help tabs to the lua controller? |
| 00:48 |
alguien |
That one's a lot of help (no pun intended) |
| 00:48 |
alguien |
I don't think it's digistuff though |
| 00:48 |
Mantar |
can't beat advancedness, it's too advanced |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> cheapie: you don't say eh? |
| 00:58 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> We need a very dangerous function in the lua api |
| 00:59 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> delete_texture() |
| 01:00 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> "the game crashed huh? What's your code do?" oh yeah, that'll do it |
| 01:01 |
alguien |
MTDiscord, can't you make it a method on the owner's reference? (capability-based security) |
| 01:01 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> That's always going to be a dangerous function, you'd need to wrapper the thing in an RC, but good luck with lua talking to it |
| 01:01 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> That's manual memory management up and down |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> What if you want it gone now? But you want to use it later without regenerating it? It's gone |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Or it's leaking |
| 01:02 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oops |
| 01:02 |
alguien |
well if you have a reference, it should still be there if we're talking RC |
| 01:03 |
alguien |
if you deleted it it's your fault. have a generic texture instead |
| 01:03 |
alguien |
or regenerate ad-hoc |
| 01:03 |
alguien |
there are answers to these questions |
| 01:03 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You'd think that right? But what's referencing it? If it's Lua, it's still a memory leak, if it's nothing, it's gone |
| 01:04 |
alguien |
can't you make the texture table a weak table? |
| 01:04 |
alguien |
wouldn't that auto-solve all the problems? |
| 01:05 |
alguien |
wait, i forgot the engine is C++ not Lua |
| 01:05 |
alguien |
you brought lua up |
| 01:05 |
alguien |
anyway, C++ has weak references too |
| 01:05 |
alguien |
right? |
| 01:05 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Yeah, you're talking to a raw pointer from lua |
| 01:06 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Not literally, that's the super condensed version |
| 01:06 |
alguien |
so what you're saying is that you should add lua's own reference count to c++'s? |
| 01:07 |
alguien |
as in, hook into where Lua releases it, and decrease the count in C++ |
| 01:07 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You run into situations, where then a lua mod, has to safely hold a reference to a C++ smart pointer |
| 01:07 |
alguien |
these issues have to have well-known solutions |
| 01:08 |
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| 01:08 |
alguien |
minetest isn't exactly the first game to embed lua |
| 01:08 |
alguien |
granted, i don't know the first thing about minetest's use of lua |
| 01:09 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> And we barely let mods do anything outside the engine, basically just talk to it, we're gonna let the mod store a reference to an engine texture's smart pointer? |
| 01:09 |
alguien |
well it's using it |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> that IS the first thing about it |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> you mean you don't know the second thing about it |
| 01:10 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Are you familiar with C99? |
| 01:10 |
alguien |
i am |
| 01:11 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Well there's plenty of that smashed in with the rest of the C++ irrlicht code |
| 01:11 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Whatever generation is in that portion |
| 01:12 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> If you would like to rectify this, open the PR yesterday |
| 01:12 |
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| 01:13 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> It's like a ladder, to the top of the empire state building, where it was started with office chairs and they kept piling up whatever they had lying around to get up there, that's what you'll be dealing with |
| 01:13 |
alguien |
That would mean lifetime management is manual, which is a good thing here. So just need to see how to hook into Lua's reference garbage collection |
| 01:14 |
alguien |
The truth is, while I know C and Lua, I'm not a gamedev, and I have zero experience with embedding Lua |
| 01:15 |
alguien |
And I don't know the second thing about minetest. My only contribution was to utils :D |
| 01:15 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Lifetime management is more or less completely manual in minetest, even with the gc, the gc is your friend, but you want to tell it your lifetimes by "leaking" memory, unless you get real fancy |
| 01:16 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Or unless you register something there's always that |
| 01:19 |
alguien |
To change the topic away from the expectation of my contributing to the engine: Is there a way to tell which mod registered which recipe? Would be nice to do that in lua mods, rather than ordering by recipe number. How many times did you have to skip through N pages of recipes to find the most basic one. |
| 01:19 |
cheapie |
alguien: mt-mods mesecons is the one with the terminal/help/examples tabs on the LuaC - I have no idea how it's comparing to the minetest-mods one any more, I kind of stopped paying attention. |
| 01:20 |
alguien |
cheapie, thanks for the info |
| 01:21 |
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| 01:27 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> wouldnt recommend using mt-mods/mesecons. iirc most of the differences have been extracted to https://github.com/mt-mods/mooncontroller |
| 03:01 |
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| 05:18 |
KURWAMAC |
https://files.catbox.moe/90gqo6.mp4 |
| 05:23 |
MTDiscord |
<wsor4035> Oh joy |
| 05:41 |
KURWAMAC |
minecraft WOOOONT ADD INCHES TO YOUR COOOOOOOOOoooooooOOooooooooooOoooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCK |
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| 06:04 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> My eyes, someone get me some voxel water immediately |
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ROllerozxa |
wtf |
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| 13:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> modlib has such a system |
| 13:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> but the "not cached" of ephemeral media refers to on-disk caching |
| 13:41 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> we don't have any kind of tile image cache eviction |
| 13:46 |
MTDiscord |
<warr1024> Anybody: "I wonder if it's possible to--" Warr1024: "I tried to use this in a feature for NodeCore and it doesn't actually work that way" and simultaneously Luatic: "modlib already has an API to use that and it doesn't actually work that way." |
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MTDiscord |
<fatalisterror> (Or if you dont want the bloat i have extracted into an independent system) |
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| 19:14 |
MinetestBot |
[git] cx384 -> minetest/minetest: Move hard coded minimap to builtin (#14071) adaa4cc https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/adaa4cc2f3c6e624b2c9ab7f40df4139b2a61c5a (2024-02-07T19:13:23Z) |
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germ_ |
not too shabby |
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