| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 00:11 |
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MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> All hands on deck for that bug |
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| 07:14 |
celeron55 |
you need to have lots of bugs in order to have a few good ones |
| 07:19 |
muurkha |
a nice thing about graphics programming is that a lot of your bugs are pretty entertaining |
| 07:19 |
muurkha |
that's less true with network protocols, filesystems, databases, web database frontends, and so on |
| 07:32 |
celeron55 |
yeah, once you fill a save file with garbage the only fun thing is backup copies |
| 07:37 |
muurkha |
exactly |
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| 08:48 |
Ingar |
oth, if you get better at writing code, you make less easy bugs and the more entertaining ones remain |
| 08:54 |
muurkha |
I've been programming for 42 years already, I think I may have to give up on that happening |
| 09:03 |
Ingar |
I just wrote a small C thing using libcurl and libxml2. That was fun :-p |
| 09:07 |
muurkha |
cool! |
| 09:11 |
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| 09:27 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I took 3 seconds to look into C and I think I have created the shortest possible memory leak without getting a gcc warning c char* test = malloc(128); |
| 09:31 |
muurkha |
you can shorten that to char*test=malloc(1); |
| 09:31 |
muurkha |
probably want to do it in a loop tho |
| 09:31 |
muurkha |
don't you get an unused warning for the variable test? |
| 09:32 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Because I haven't attempted to turn on any compiler warnings at all |
| 09:35 |
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| 09:36 |
muurkha |
oh, well then |
| 09:37 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Have you looked into Zig? It is slightly lower level than C |
| 09:38 |
muurkha |
Zig looks somewhat appealing, but I wouldn't describe it that way |
| 09:38 |
muurkha |
slightly lower level than C is BLISS, Forth, or assembly |
| 09:39 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh it is, there's no preprocessor, what you put is what you get |
| 09:40 |
muurkha |
how does that make it lower-level? |
| 09:42 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Because you are literally no hidden anything, you are basically one step above assembly. You can literally assign your allocator into your program instead of having to rely on the allocators given to you |
| 09:42 |
muurkha |
a low-level language is one in which you have to make decisions about things you don't care about because they aren't part of your problem domain. like integer widths, struct memory layout, and allocation lifetimes |
| 09:43 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Sounds like Zig |
| 09:43 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Zig gives you more control about allocators, but I wouldn't call it lower-level than C++ |
| 09:43 |
muurkha |
less so than C; Zig has parametric polymorphism |
| 09:43 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> It definitely has some abstraction like comptime that C doesn't have |
| 09:43 |
muurkha |
we weren't talking about C++ though, just C |
| 09:44 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Yes, for example, there aren't even macros in Zig |
| 09:44 |
muurkha |
I don't see how that's relevant? |
| 09:44 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Because that would cause side effects that are hidden lmao |
| 09:44 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> no hidden control flow |
| 09:44 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> You step under C |
| 09:45 |
muurkha |
it might be reasonable to assert that Zig's struct memory layout control is lower-level than C's |
| 09:46 |
muurkha |
but other things like parametric polymorphism and option types are higher-level |
| 09:48 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> yeah |
| 09:49 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Hmm, still no hidden control flow. NASA even warns against the C preprocessor and those macros |
| 09:50 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> Zig is a mix of giving you control if you need it (and at times requiring you to do some more work) and providing higher-level abstractions |
| 09:51 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I don't like C or Zig though because I am a very annoying person |
| 09:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> There are valid reasons not to use these languages. Often you don't need or want manual memory management for example. |
| 09:52 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh of course, there's still ADA and Cobol in production as we speak |
| 09:52 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> I feel like Ada may be getting dunked on unjustly |
| 09:53 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> sure its syntax may be verbose, but the concepts aren't all that bad |
| 09:53 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> No it's literally running life support components in space right now |
| 09:53 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> indeed |
| 09:53 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> And Cobol has it's space because it's java's java |
| 09:54 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> then again it should be noted that software (and hardware) for use in space are effectively edge cases in software development |
| 09:54 |
muurkha |
09:51 <+MTDiscord> <jordan4ibanez> I don't like C or Zig though because I am a very annoying person |
| 09:54 |
muurkha |
that is oay |
| 09:54 |
muurkha |
*okay |
| 09:54 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> "Will they allow my game on the ISS"? |
| 09:54 |
muurkha |
we love you anyway |
| 09:55 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> yay |
| 09:55 |
MTDiscord |
<luatic> inb4 the ISS comes down because Minetest segfaulted |
| 09:55 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh man, the actual humanity, the PR nightmare |
| 09:55 |
muurkha |
luatic: it's true that the software and hardware we used in space did suffer some unusual failures |
| 09:56 |
muurkha |
but we were able to get away with using mostly pretty normal stuff. gumstix boards, can buses, ethernet, automotive microcontrollers |
| 09:56 |
muurkha |
the sd cards and sqlite were a mistake tho |
| 09:57 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I think the chain mail memory is the coolest thing they came out with, you shut the thing off and it remembered like a solid state drive |
| 09:57 |
muurkha |
you mean magnetic core memory? |
| 09:57 |
muurkha |
that predates Sputnik I think |
| 09:59 |
muurkha |
the IBM 704 was delivered with core memory in 01954 apparently |
| 09:59 |
muurkha |
Sputnik launched in 01957 |
| 09:59 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Yeee |
| 10:00 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> They had it in the....DEC pdp 11? I can't remember |
| 10:00 |
muurkha |
every computer in the world had it for 20 years |
| 10:00 |
muurkha |
including, yes, lots of early PDP-11s |
| 10:01 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> That's my absolute favorite big iron behemoth |
| 10:01 |
muurkha |
the PDP-11 line were a minicomputers, not big iron or behemoths |
| 10:01 |
muurkha |
*were minicomputers |
| 10:02 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I mean compared to today's tech, things an absolute monster for 16 bit |
| 10:02 |
muurkha |
and starting in 01975, microcomputers |
| 10:02 |
muurkha |
the four-chip LSI-11 |
| 10:03 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> That wiring is quite beautiful |
| 10:04 |
muurkha |
it sounds like you're thinking of a particular model of PDP-11, probably an early one |
| 10:04 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Oh yeah, the one with the mag tape drive |
| 10:04 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Very, VERY loud machine |
| 10:04 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> (Or so I've heard) |
| 10:08 |
muurkha |
like, you probably aren't thinking of this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_Professional_(computer) |
| 10:08 |
muurkha |
you could connect a tape drive to any PDP-11 except for a few that were hard to expand because they were built into a terminal |
| 10:09 |
muurkha |
like the PDT-11/110 |
| 10:09 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> Holy moly that's like the size of an xt |
| 10:10 |
muurkha |
yeah. you could get them even smaller in the 80s |
| 10:11 |
muurkha |
like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK |
| 10:11 |
muurkha |
though you could argue that wasn't really a PDP-11 because it wasn't from DEC |
| 10:13 |
muurkha |
this was another small PDP-11, from DEC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_GT40 |
| 10:13 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> The absolute CHONK of that keyboard, truly beautiful |
| 10:14 |
muurkha |
it's a chonky keyboard because it has a PDP-11 inside |
| 10:15 |
muurkha |
no room for a tape drive tho |
| 10:15 |
muurkha |
it had an audio cassette tape interface tho |
| 10:16 |
muurkha |
there's a list of models in http://www.wolfgang-houben.de/faqpdp11.htm |
| 10:16 |
MTDiscord |
<jordan4ibanez> I was referring to the keys, the travel must feel bottomless, probably linear |
| 10:19 |
muurkha |
I don't know; I don't know anyone who has one |
| 10:20 |
muurkha |
Heathkit also sold a PC-XT-sized PDP-11 in kit form that you could build yourself: https://hackaday.com/2021/11/22/a-pdp-11-by-any-other-name-heathkit-h11-teardown-and-repair/ |
| 11:43 |
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| 12:17 |
MinetestBot |
[git] garymm -> minetest/minetest: Try to fix safeWriteToFile producing empty files on Windows (#14085) 6eb9269 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/6eb9269741e35190ab554a27ab5aa54426e970dd (2023-12-13T12:15:37Z) |
| 12:17 |
MinetestBot |
[git] sfan5 -> minetest/minetest: Remove use_texture_alpha compatibility code for nodeboxes & meshes (#… d1a55e9 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d1a55e9ca4e66d8ba2d799569de7a6b48bc15f23 (2023-12-13T12:15:59Z) |
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