Time Nick Message 01:50 MTDiscord All hands on deck for that bug 07:14 celeron55 you need to have lots of bugs in order to have a few good ones 07:19 muurkha a nice thing about graphics programming is that a lot of your bugs are pretty entertaining 07:19 muurkha that's less true with network protocols, filesystems, databases, web database frontends, and so on 07:32 celeron55 yeah, once you fill a save file with garbage the only fun thing is backup copies 07:37 muurkha exactly 08:48 Ingar oth, if you get better at writing code, you make less easy bugs and the more entertaining ones remain 08:54 muurkha I've been programming for 42 years already, I think I may have to give up on that happening 09:03 Ingar I just wrote a small C thing using libcurl and libxml2. That was fun :-p 09:07 muurkha cool! 09:27 MTDiscord I took 3 seconds to look into C and I think I have created the shortest possible memory leak without getting a gcc warning c char* test = malloc(128); 09:31 muurkha you can shorten that to char*test=malloc(1); 09:31 muurkha probably want to do it in a loop tho 09:31 muurkha don't you get an unused warning for the variable test? 09:32 MTDiscord Because I haven't attempted to turn on any compiler warnings at all 09:36 muurkha oh, well then 09:37 MTDiscord Have you looked into Zig? It is slightly lower level than C 09:38 muurkha Zig looks somewhat appealing, but I wouldn't describe it that way 09:38 muurkha slightly lower level than C is BLISS, Forth, or assembly 09:39 MTDiscord Oh it is, there's no preprocessor, what you put is what you get 09:40 muurkha how does that make it lower-level? 09:42 MTDiscord Because you are literally no hidden anything, you are basically one step above assembly. You can literally assign your allocator into your program instead of having to rely on the allocators given to you 09:42 muurkha a low-level language is one in which you have to make decisions about things you don't care about because they aren't part of your problem domain. like integer widths, struct memory layout, and allocation lifetimes 09:43 MTDiscord Sounds like Zig 09:43 MTDiscord Zig gives you more control about allocators, but I wouldn't call it lower-level than C++ 09:43 muurkha less so than C; Zig has parametric polymorphism 09:43 MTDiscord It definitely has some abstraction like comptime that C doesn't have 09:43 muurkha we weren't talking about C++ though, just C 09:44 MTDiscord Yes, for example, there aren't even macros in Zig 09:44 muurkha I don't see how that's relevant? 09:44 MTDiscord Because that would cause side effects that are hidden lmao 09:44 MTDiscord no hidden control flow 09:44 MTDiscord You step under C 09:45 muurkha it might be reasonable to assert that Zig's struct memory layout control is lower-level than C's 09:46 muurkha but other things like parametric polymorphism and option types are higher-level 09:48 MTDiscord yeah 09:49 MTDiscord Hmm, still no hidden control flow. NASA even warns against the C preprocessor and those macros 09:50 MTDiscord Zig is a mix of giving you control if you need it (and at times requiring you to do some more work) and providing higher-level abstractions 09:51 MTDiscord I don't like C or Zig though because I am a very annoying person 09:52 MTDiscord There are valid reasons not to use these languages. Often you don't need or want manual memory management for example. 09:52 MTDiscord Oh of course, there's still ADA and Cobol in production as we speak 09:52 MTDiscord I feel like Ada may be getting dunked on unjustly 09:53 MTDiscord sure its syntax may be verbose, but the concepts aren't all that bad 09:53 MTDiscord No it's literally running life support components in space right now 09:53 MTDiscord indeed 09:53 MTDiscord And Cobol has it's space because it's java's java 09:54 MTDiscord then again it should be noted that software (and hardware) for use in space are effectively edge cases in software development 09:54 muurkha 09:51 <+MTDiscord> I don't like C or Zig though because I am a very annoying person 09:54 muurkha that is oay 09:54 muurkha *okay 09:54 MTDiscord "Will they allow my game on the ISS"? 09:54 muurkha we love you anyway 09:55 MTDiscord yay 09:55 MTDiscord inb4 the ISS comes down because Minetest segfaulted 09:55 MTDiscord Oh man, the actual humanity, the PR nightmare 09:55 muurkha luatic: it's true that the software and hardware we used in space did suffer some unusual failures 09:56 muurkha but we were able to get away with using mostly pretty normal stuff. gumstix boards, can buses, ethernet, automotive microcontrollers 09:56 muurkha the sd cards and sqlite were a mistake tho 09:57 MTDiscord I think the chain mail memory is the coolest thing they came out with, you shut the thing off and it remembered like a solid state drive 09:57 muurkha you mean magnetic core memory? 09:57 muurkha that predates Sputnik I think 09:59 muurkha the IBM 704 was delivered with core memory in 01954 apparently 09:59 muurkha Sputnik launched in 01957 09:59 MTDiscord Yeee 10:00 MTDiscord They had it in the....DEC pdp 11? I can't remember 10:00 muurkha every computer in the world had it for 20 years 10:00 muurkha including, yes, lots of early PDP-11s 10:01 MTDiscord That's my absolute favorite big iron behemoth 10:01 muurkha the PDP-11 line were a minicomputers, not big iron or behemoths 10:01 muurkha *were minicomputers 10:02 MTDiscord I mean compared to today's tech, things an absolute monster for 16 bit 10:02 muurkha and starting in 01975, microcomputers 10:02 muurkha the four-chip LSI-11 10:03 MTDiscord That wiring is quite beautiful 10:04 muurkha it sounds like you're thinking of a particular model of PDP-11, probably an early one 10:04 MTDiscord Oh yeah, the one with the mag tape drive 10:04 MTDiscord Very, VERY loud machine 10:04 MTDiscord (Or so I've heard) 10:08 muurkha like, you probably aren't thinking of this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_Professional_(computer) 10:08 muurkha you could connect a tape drive to any PDP-11 except for a few that were hard to expand because they were built into a terminal 10:09 muurkha like the PDT-11/110 10:09 MTDiscord Holy moly that's like the size of an xt 10:10 muurkha yeah. you could get them even smaller in the 80s 10:11 muurkha like this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK 10:11 muurkha though you could argue that wasn't really a PDP-11 because it wasn't from DEC 10:13 muurkha this was another small PDP-11, from DEC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_GT40 10:13 MTDiscord The absolute CHONK of that keyboard, truly beautiful 10:14 muurkha it's a chonky keyboard because it has a PDP-11 inside 10:15 muurkha no room for a tape drive tho 10:15 muurkha it had an audio cassette tape interface tho 10:16 muurkha there's a list of models in http://www.wolfgang-houben.de/faqpdp11.htm 10:16 MTDiscord I was referring to the keys, the travel must feel bottomless, probably linear 10:19 muurkha I don't know; I don't know anyone who has one 10:20 muurkha Heathkit also sold a PC-XT-sized PDP-11 in kit form that you could build yourself: https://hackaday.com/2021/11/22/a-pdp-11-by-any-other-name-heathkit-h11-teardown-and-repair/ 12:17 MinetestBot 02[git] 04garymm -> 03minetest/minetest: Try to fix safeWriteToFile producing empty files on Windows (#14085) 136eb9269 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/6eb9269741e35190ab554a27ab5aa54426e970dd (152023-12-13T12:15:37Z) 12:17 MinetestBot 02[git] 04sfan5 -> 03minetest/minetest: Remove use_texture_alpha compatibility code for nodeboxes & meshes (#… 13d1a55e9 https://github.com/minetest/minetest/commit/d1a55e9ca4e66d8ba2d799569de7a6b48bc15f23 (152023-12-13T12:15:59Z)